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Ep. 426 Lonely Crowds by Stephanie Wambugu — The Stacks Book Club (Chanda Prescod-Weinstein)
01:15:56
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- [00:00]
A
As you all know, the Stacks just celebrated its birthday last month and I cannot thank you all enough for supporting this independent podcast for the last eight years. We truly could not do it without you. My plan is to continue to bring you many more years of great reads, author interviews, behind the scenes looks in the book world and pop culture gossip. But I can only do that with your support. So giving us a listen every week goes a long way. And if you want to go that extra mile, consider. Consider supporting the Stacks on Patreon and Substack. I will say May is also the month that kicks off summer around here. I believe in the longest possible summer. That's Memorial Day to September 22nd for those who are wondering and summer ushers in the era of the summer reading guide. My non fiction reading guide is coming in May for all of you who are paid subscribers on Patreon or Substack. So that's just a perk to keep in mind in addition to everything else we've got going on, like book club meetups, our Discord conversation, bonus episodes, my weekly show and tell over on Substack. Making this podcast takes a village, as they say. And you're part of our village when you support through Patreon and Substack so that me and my amazing team can continue doing what we do best, which is bringing this podcast to you every single week. So if you or your friends are looking to meet other book lovers, support an independent podcast. Come hang out with me@patreon.com the stacks on Patreon and subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy Thomas, substack.
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B
Com.
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A
I would love to have you.
- [01:40]
B
This is also a New England novel which very much subverts American stereotypes about what kinds of literature comes out of New England. Like starting with the fact that it's about black people and not about white people. I mean, not about like you know, some mad whaling ship captain. Yeah, but there is kind of, I will say there is kind of a Moby Dick piece in it in that like Marie Maria is almost like Ruth's Moby Dick in that she's like just chasing her and it's this unattainable, like this is not going to work out the way that, that you want it to work out.
- [02:16]
A
Yeah. Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and today is the Stacks Book Club Day. We are joined again by best selling and award winning author, theoretical physicist and cosmologist Chanda Prescod Weinstein. We are discussing our May Book Club Pick Lonely Crowds by Stephanie Wambugu. This book traces the decades long friendship between Ruth and Maria, whose intense childhood bond is tested in adulthood by the very competitive nature of the New York City art world in the 1990s. Today, Chanda and I chat about the nature of obsession throughout this book, how the use of a first person narrative enhanced this story, and how we think about success, capitalism and the world of art. There are spoilers on today's episode and be sure to listen to the end of the episode to find out what our June book club pick will be. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show Notes if you're a person who loves books and you want to talk about books all the time and think about books all the time, and make friends who also love and think about books all the time, check out the Stacks Pack on Patreon and consider subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on Substack. Each platform is going to offer you different perks, but mostly they're great spaces to be in if you want to be talking and thinking and loving on books. It's not complicated you join either of these places. We have free and paid options and by joining you make it possible for me to make this podcast every single week. So head to patreon.com the stacks for the stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com all right, now it is time for my conversation with Spoilers with Chanda Prescott Weinstein about Lonely crowds. All right everybody, it is the Stacks Book Club Day. I am joined again by best selling Chanda Prescott Weinstein, the author of the Edge of Space Time, my favorite scientist and apparently according to all of your feedback, also your favorite scientist. Chanda, the people love you. I know why, but you know, you never know.
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B
Thank you for having me. And that's so great to hear because you know you spend a lot of time with a book and then you're very anxious about it and so it's nice. At the Edge of Space Time has been so well received. So thank you all.
- [04:44]
A
Yeah, well, we love you. Thank you for being the only person in the universe who will talk to us about science in a way that we don't feel like morons. I say we, but I really just. I probably just mean me. But in case anyone else feels seen by that, it is book Club Day. We are discussing Lonely Crowds by Stephanie Wambugu. This book came out in 2025 for people at home who have not read the book. We are going to spoil the book. We are going to spoil the book. We are going to spoil the book. So you've been warned now, and here's what it's about. It's about a. A girl who turns into a woman. A girl. Woman named Ruth, who is best friends with a girl who turns into a woman named Maria. They meet in childhood when they're about nine. And for lots of different reasons, they become extremely close, almost like sisters. They go to college together, they are roommates, and they are both artists, sort of in different fields. And this book is about their relationship. And I'm gonna leave it at that. That's a very general breakdown of the book, but we're gonna get into all of it shortly. So I want to start with you, Chanda, where we always start, which is like, what did you think of Lonely Crowd? Sort of generally big picture.
- [06:04]
B
So I think I'll start by saying that Stephanie Wambugu is an incredible voice. Like, just incredible. Like, on the page, the writing is very vibrant. You're in the room, you're seeing everything, you're feeling everything. And also for that reason, this book fucked me up, because you're feeling everything. But I can't wait to read what she does next. I was. I was really impressed. And it was so beautifully edited as well, which I. I'm going to credit the writer with that for having the eye to see what she needed to do at the sentence level. It's just. It's all there.
- [06:42]
A
Yeah, I have very similar. Well, I have similar thoughts, but slightly different. I think the prose, the writing of this book is. It's extraordinary writing. I mean, my understanding is that she was like 26 when this book came out. 27. 26. And for her to have such a clean, clear sense of language for her first book, it just does not feel like a debut. And. And that is said as a person who reads a lot of debuts, because I actually really like some of the, like, clunkiness of a debut. I like to see where someone goes, you know what I mean? Like, I'm a little bit like, oh, okay, this is where we're starting. Like, wow, this. This one's so different. And this book really feels to me felt like the second or third book. Like, it felt like someone who had really had time to think and reflect on how the writing should be. I don't love a sort of like, slow, character driven book. So part of this book just like, wasn't for my taste. However, I think she's done an excellent job at that thing that I know many people love. But it didn't really, like, resonate with me as much because I think I was sort of like, okay, like, when are they going to New York? I guess, like, kind of like, let's get there. But what I did love and what did resonate with me was a lot of the conversation about who gets to make art, how they get to make art, how they feel about the making of the art, who owns the art. What does it mean to have money as an art maker? What does it mean to want money as an art maker? Like, all of those conversations I was really taken with, which also did happen sort of in the. The back half of the book. So for me, I really liked the second half more than the first half, but the writing throughout, like, so tight, so clean. Wow.
- [08:31]
B
So tight, so clean. Like, I think it was interesting to read Lonely Crowds after reading Tehari Jones's novel Kin, because it conceptually, there was a lot of overlap in terms of, like, the themes of, like, black women's relationships with each other and the tensions between childhood relationships and adult relationships and making that transition. And there's obviously a lot of differences in the actual plots, but I just felt like it was very interesting to read them side by side. And I'm kind of glad that I didn't hear about Lonely Crowds until after I had already picked up Ken.
- [09:10]
A
Interesting. Yeah, I definitely think they're in conversation for sure, those two books. It's interesting, but I. What I found really impressive about the writing was not only is it, like, really tight, but it just felt so stylized. Like, there's so much, like, tone and vibe and, like, style in the writing. And having you say that about. About Kin is, like, Even makes that feel even more true because, you know, it's like, oh, it's a friendship novel about two black women, like, growing up from childhood, like, into their college years and a little bit beyond or whatever. And you'd be like, oh, these are the same book. But because the style is so different. Like, the way. And both of them use their prose in such, like, masterful ways, but they do it so differently that the books don't feel that similar. And I think that's really impressive to have that kind of command as a debut novelist.
- [10:06]
B
It's interesting thinking about her age also. And I guess I'm saying this as, like, I'm about to turn 44 soon. And so this is my perspective as someone in her 40s who teaches people who are in this, in the age group. That she's writing from her understanding of what the 20s are versus later stages in life. I was like, how did you do that? Because when I was in my 20s, I couldn't understand what the next stages look like.
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A
Like what? Because you were living in it.
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B
I was living in it. But she writes as if she's like a 40 year old looking back.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I don't mean like, like an old fuddy duddy. I just mean with like the maturity and perspective of someone. Like, I feel, I felt like maybe I'm just like stupid. I was a, I was a particularly like stupid, like 26 year old.
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A
Right.
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B
But I'm like, I think only in my 40s do I have this level of like kind of analysis of what happened during those years.
- [11:02]
A
Yeah, yeah, I, I agree with that. I felt like, yes, the perspective was like, felt very mature.
- [11:09]
B
This is just. I sound like such an auntie right now. But I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll accept that.
- [11:14]
A
You can, you can. You know what else I thought was really well done in this book, which is something I've been railing against recently in my life, is the first person narrative. This book is written in first person and usually I'm like, you only need to write first person if your narrator is so unreliable or the stakes are just so high, it's impossible for the reader to feel the tension of the events with it being in third person. So for example, you know, Hunger Games or like Parable of the Sower, it's like those stakes are just so high you don't really understand what that's like unless you're in it. And I felt like she sort of fucked up my, my thinking because I'm like, this is a low stakes first person narrative with an unreliable narrator, but not someone that's so unreliable. But what I appreciated about it is that the ways that Ruth is unreliable is that Ruth's self esteem and like, understanding of herself is so warped that it would be impossible to see Maria in the way that we need to if it was in third person. I feel, you know, the interesting thing
- [12:31]
B
was, is that actually at some point I realized that it was in first person. And I had not really consciously paid attention to that. And it was actually pretty late in the book that I went back and I was like, has this been in first person the whole time? I mean, I think one of the reasons that I had the reaction to the book that I did was because I, I don't feel like I can be objective about this book because There was actually so much overlap between the story and something that actually happened in my own life. And so I think because in a way, I identified so much with Ruth's perspective, I did not even realize that I wasn't watching it as an objective, like, nar. Like third person narrator, omniscient narrator. Because I was like, this is the natural perspective on this story. Which was like, very informative for me.
- [13:22]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like when first person works well is when you don't really notice it. You know, where it's just like, this feels right. If you're noticing it, it's like, oh. The only reason I think I've been noticing it is because in my fiction reading, there's been so much of it lately that now I'm like, pay. Like the moment I open a book, I'm like, what's happening? That's like the first thing I look at. So I don't know that I would have noticed it as much, but I do. But it does feel right for this book in a way that a lot of fiction lately has. It's felt like I'm doing first person because I'm supposed to do first person. But I genuinely don't think you could tell the story in third person because you'd have too much balance around them. It would be too. I. I think if this story is told in third person, it's a lot easier to dislike Ruth, honestly. I think, like, a lot of her behavior becomes more questionable. Whereas if you're with her, you kind of. She. You build endearment towards her in the beginning. So that when things start to get weird, you're like, oh, it's. It's Ruth. Whereas if it was more balanced, it would be like, okay, well, Ruth's also kind of crazy.
- [14:30]
B
You know, there's definitely that element of it. And I think the other thing is that Maria's fundamental inaccessibility.
- [14:39]
A
Yes.
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B
I think she needs to stay inaccessible to the audience, because I think the point is that nobody can access her in a full way. And if you have kind of an omniscient narrator, then you would start to wonder why that omniscient voice doesn't have that insight into her the way it has into Ruth. But I think we're supposed to have the experience of never really knowing Maria fully and never fully appreciating her perspective. And I think that that only works from the first person perspective.
- [15:10]
A
Yeah, but. Okay, so here's my question then. Do you think that nobody can ever really know Maria, or do you think that Ruth could never really know Maria.
- [15:21]
B
I think nobody does. I think because, like, you know, Maria has this partner, girlfriend, maybe wife, I guess, like towards the end, this kid, this is the implication is maybe they got married. And I think it's like, very clear that she doesn't know the side of Maria that Ruth knows. And so I suppose we could question whether, like, the side that Ruth knows is really like Maria at all.
- [15:47]
A
Yeah.
- [15:48]
B
But I do think that Maria let Ruth think that those things and didn't push back against them very much. And I don't think anybody knows the Maria that Ruth does, including, like, that version of her being inaccessible but still being physically present.
- [16:08]
A
As I was reading the book, I was very like, pro Ruth in the beginning. And I think by the time I got to the end, I had a lot more sympathy for Maria. And part of that, I think, is because the way the book is written in the first person and the things that Ruth does as the book continues to go on, I started to be like, wait, you're actually not a reliable person. Like, you're also troubled in a lot of ways. And I think that it made me go back and think, like, Maria does have a lot of other relationships throughout the book and she has friends and she's going to parties. And it made me think, like, maybe Maria is keeping Ruth has a special relationship with Ruth, but that that is the outlier and not the other way around. Right. And so, like, I think this kind of sort of confusion or like different readings of Maria is made possible by this first person narration. Right. It's like, how much by the end do you trust Ruth and Ruth's version of the story and how much and how much by the end can you sympathize with Maria and her experiences? And like, I don't know, I found that to be a really interesting because, like, by the end I sort of was like, wait, wait, wait. I feel destabilized with these women in a way that earlier I did not at all. I sort of felt like, oh, I know what this is. Yeah.
- [17:29]
B
It's interesting because, like, I think one of the challenges that I had in reading the first half of the book, the part that happens during their childhood before they go to college was it was like, very obvious to me that it was a lesbian love story. And I was like, when? When are we going to get to the part where this is sort of recognized? And I was actually really surprised that the first thing that happens is that Maria turns out to be gay and that Ruth is still walking around saying that she's straight. And I'm like, but you very obviously were obsessed with, like. Ruth really has a genuine obsession with Maria.
- [18:08]
A
Yes.
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B
And it starts early on. And I think, like, you know, children's relationships can be complicated, and we should be really careful about adultifying their. Their interactions with each other and attachments to each other. But this is very obviously something where Ruth has some deeply felt, and I guess one could say, like, masculine, almost patriarchal desire to be Maria's one and only and protect Maria and also be kind of the center of Maria's universe. And it's one. You're kind of like, how come none of the adults are noticing that?
- [18:50]
A
Right.
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B
That she's this level of lonely and. Right. And this is like kind of the first, there is an unwell element to it, which is that, like, that level of obsession with another person. And then Maria has, like, this very fucked up situation at home that kind of makes her need Ruth in a way, materially. It has nothing to do necessarily with emotional attachment, but this is someone who's providing for her, and she needs a family that. That will provide for her. And I. I struggled with that a lot. I actually worried. I mean, this is one of those things. Like, I have. I have this friend who's always telling me, like, you just have to kind of see how it plays out and trust the. The. Usually he and I are talking about film. He's like, you have to trust the film and trust the TV show. See where they. But I was like, is this going to be one of those books where it's, like, super gay but, like, never gets acknowledged? And then, actually, very clearly it's not one of those books. But also, the unfolding of that was not how I expected. And that might have to do with, again, the ways in which my own kind of friendship with someone who I will call Emily was. I was kind of a mix of Ruth and Maria in a way, not so extreme. But I was the one who turned out to be queer. And so I was expecting it to be like, well, and then Ruth realized she liked girls. And that never quite happens in the book.
- [20:16]
A
Never happened. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's go into the book because I feel like we've kind of. I want to get into the plot a little bit. So, first and foremost, the epigraph of this book is. When I think about it, I must say that my education has done me a great harm in some respects. And when I first read that, I was like, oh, like, I knew this book. Like, I knew they Went to college, gonna be a book about, like, school. And now, of course, after finishing the book, I'm like, that's actually a genius epigraph. Like, this idea that education is not just something like. It's like all the things were taught, you know, not necessarily in school. But one of the things you say is, like, very early on, this becomes a. You know, this is a book about obsession. And. And when I finished the book, I went back and reread that first chapter, which takes place in the future.
- [21:06]
B
Yes.
- [21:06]
A
From where the book ends. So the book. There's this opening chapter. It's Ruth's birthday. She's very frantic. People keep asking her if she's okay. She has an encounter with a colleague at the university. She goes to a gallery opening event for her, and it's her birthday. It's just like. It's like a very kind of, like, chaotic opening. And I went back and read it, and on page three, it says, when I met Maria, I learned that without an obsession, life was impossible to live. And I said, oh, she's told us the whole book, basically on page three. I flagged that when I read it the first time. When I went back in my notes, I had that line on page three noted. But when I went back and reread it, I was like, sure. And there's other things in that first chapter that are. That, like, I. That I noticed. For example, she talks about her husband, but doesn't name him, but she does name her mentor and his wife, Hildy, who come. You know, and she names Maria, obviously. And I thought that was interesting. And then there's this scene with this teacher that she is a fellow professor or teacher who she has agreed to do something with. And the teacher is like, you know, just. Things have been so hard lately. I just, like, want to kill myself. And they, like, continue to talk. And then Maria Ruth's like, I have to have to go. And she's like, are you okay? Did I offend you? And she's like, no, no, it's fine. She's like, I have to go. She makes up a lie. And then she ends up seeing the teacher again. And the teacher's like, I did offend you. Like, blah, blah. And that bit of the book, when I first read it, I'm like, what is this? What is this? And then when I got to the end and I went back and read it, I was like, oh, this is also right here for us. Which we can come back to when we get to the end, because I want to ask you about that. But so we do this opening scene in the future from where the book ends, and then we go back, she takes like, some like, antihistamine, goes to sleep. And as she's falling asleep, her whole life plays before her eyes. And we go back in chapter two to the beginning where she first lays eyes on Maria.
- [23:09]
B
So can I just say yes? So two things. I also went back to the first chapter. And from a craft perspective, I will just say that I'm very curious about whether the first chapter actually started as a short story. Like, whether that was its own side.
- [23:24]
A
I thought the same thing story, because it also has a different energy. It feels like its own separate thing.
- [23:30]
B
Yes, yes. And when I got to the end, I was like, wait a minute, I have to figure out where we were in the timeline. Because Wambuku does a few different interesting things with subverting readers expectations. Like that epigraph at the beginning is a friend's Kafka. And I think like most readers, or maybe I'm just projecting about myself, but most readers, when we think about Kafka, we think about one story where there's this kind of, like, impossibility built into the story of anything, like, working out well. And I'm sure she has her own relationship. This is from Kafka's diaries. So it's like something completely separate. But I do think that there is this element of, like, tagging on, like, what are the reader's expectations and associations? And then like, not doing the thing that the reader expects. And that first chapter and then the move to the second chapter is an example of that. I actually often am very annoyed by starting in the future and then flashback. And so I thought that's what was happening. And I didn't realize that the rest of the book was actually going to be a complete forward timeline that never actually links to the first chapter. Like, there is a break between the end of the book and the first chapter. And that was. That was totally not what I was expected. And I feel like she knew what she was doing there.
- [24:53]
A
Yeah, I think that's such a good point. This book, there are so many bits where it's like, oh, I think I know what she's going to do with this piece of information. And then she doesn't do it. And it's thrilling. Like, I think that is what made me like this book. Because even if the prose had been as good as they were, without a ton of plot, and like, having it be such a vibesy book, if it had done What I thought it was going to do, I really would have. I would have disliked it. It would have been too cutesy for me. Like, I would have just been like, okay. But because there was, like, she left so many things dangling for us. Just, like, make of this information what you will, which is actually takes me to the next thing I sort of want to talk about. So very quickly, Ruth sees Maria at the store to get uniforms for their new school. She's with an older woman who. She does not know who she is at the time, but it's her aunt, and she can't pay for the uniforms. And she's like, can I. Can you just, like, basically give it to me on layaway? Like, I'll come back. I'll pay you back, whatever. And he's like, no. And sort of embarrasses them. They leave. And from that moment, Ruth is, like, taken by this child. I should also say they are two black girls and they're living in a part of Rhode island and they are going to a Catholic school that is pretty much all white. It sounds like mostly white. If they're other black girls, we don't hear about them. Later that day or soon thereafter, Ruth goes to the store for her mom to get milk. She sees Maria in the store. Maria says hi. Ruth freaks out, runs out of the store, loses the money, doesn't get the milk. Big trouble for her. And then they meet at school in this period. What I want to talk about is Ruth's parents. We get to meet Ruth's parents, Her mom and her dad. Her dad. Her parents sleep in different rooms. Her dad appears to be perhaps a homosexual.
- [26:44]
B
Did you hear that? I mean, he definitely. He's unwell mentally. And there's like. There's definitely some. There's a lot of, why, why isn't he manly enough kind of stuff in there.
- [27:01]
A
Right. That's why I thought perhaps that it was a child's understanding of, like, you know, he took her to school when the car broke down. He couldn't fix it. He's not a man enough. They don't sleep in the same room. He's speaking to her about. He's asking her about her feelings. Like, there were all. I know that he's not the love of my mom's life. And so my understanding, my sense was that that was her child's way to view that he was perhaps gay. That's sort of how I had read it.
- [27:35]
B
Yeah. I think I spent a lot of time very focused on how it was clear that she was interpreting her father, through her mother's perspective. And this is kind of an interesting decision on her part because her father is clearly doing a lot of the caring work with her, but also. And her mother is very emotionally distant with her, but it's almost like she wants to connect with her mom so badly that she's even willing to have this pejorative and patriarchal perspective on her father because it aligns more with her mother. And it's clear that they're both dissatisfied with the marriage. Although I think we see her mother's dissatisfaction with the marriage more. Her mother seems like she feels like she's trapped in the marriage.
- [28:25]
A
I think that's great because we get that bit later on where the mom's like. She calls and Ruth's, like, having a hard time, and the mom's like, hey, babe, do you think I should divorce your dad? I know he's talking about this renovation, but, like, I just really. I hate it here. And she's like, okay, thanks, bye.
- [28:41]
B
Yes.
- [28:42]
A
Which was a great. I mean, that's the thing about this book. There are these sort of funny bits throughout the book. For a sort of, like, serious literary fiction book, it does have these sort of funny moments that I really found, like, kind of charming and, like, kind of just like, yes, of course. You'd call your mom and then she'd be like, actually, thanks for calling. I have something I want to talk to you about. About me. This is about me again. I think this first person that, like, really limits the view of the world around is really useful in this book because it does limit her understanding of her parents. And also, there's, like, the religious aspect, too, right? Her mom is very religious. There's this constant reminder that she gives her of, like, the devil, like, shows up as everything you ever wanted. You know, there's a part where the mom at the wedding is like, I would never show my shoulders in a church. Like, there's just like, all these. They go to a Catholic school. So there's all of this sort of outside pressure about respectability that's coming in on her. And I think in a lot of ways, that also is what I was responding to with the dad of, like, oh, he's not living up to these standards. Like, something must be wrong. Air quotes with him. And so my jump was sort of like, oh, well, maybe he's gay. Because that would make sense why the mom felt trapped, like, she needs him. They need the income. They need this and that. But for a child who is sort of unreliable to us because She's a child to have picked up like that. My dad is not the great love of my mom's life. I found that to be really like telling in some ways.
- [30:23]
B
Yeah. I think there are two pieces to this also in relation to both Ruth and Maria, which is that they are both children of immigrants. And this is also a New England novel which I think very much subverts American stereotypes about what kinds of literature comes out of New England. Like starting with the fact that it's about black people and not about white people. I mean, not about like you know, some mad whaling ship captain. So it's.
- [30:56]
A
Yeah, I'm.
- [30:57]
B
But there is kind of, I will say, because I'm a Moby Dick fanatic. I will say there is kind of a Moby Dick piece in it in that like Maria is almost like Ruth's Moby Dick and that she's like just chasing her and it's this unattainable, like this is not going to work out the way that, that you want it to work out. But I think that that's like a feature of the parents relationship that there's the immigrant experience adds a layer of pressure to those kinds of partnerships that divorce takes on a different meaning if you're both poor immigrants trying to make it and you have a child to support that. That's a very different experience than like if you're a feeling totally secure citizen who was born in the community and feels like you're part of the community. And Maria has, has a different version of it. But I thought about that a lot, that they may have, had they been American born and raised, that they might have divorced but because of the economic pressures on immigrants in a particular way that they don't feel like they can.
- [32:06]
A
Is it said whether Ruth's dad is an immigrant?
- [32:10]
B
Oh, I guess that's a good point. Maybe.
- [32:12]
A
I, I can't remember. It might have been said. I know we know that Ruth's mom is from Kenya because they go back to Kenya when his, her sister in law kills herself. And we know that both of Maria's parents and the aunt are from Panama because the dad tells us that he's from Panama when we meet him later in the book also. But I don't, I don't, I, I don't know if it was said or if not. But even still, even still, like for the mom, she's so far away from everyone that she would know too. Like what, what community do you have? She works, you know, with elderly people who are constantly dying. Right. She like is a hospice nurse. So it's not even like she has, like, a work, work community that's reliable for her either.
- [32:57]
B
Her parents don't have friends.
- [32:59]
A
Yeah.
- [33:00]
B
And so, like, Ruth not having friends, in a way, is almost like family culture of they don't know how to have. And they're not even friends with each other within the family. None of them know how to have friends. And in this sense, like, Ruth is kind of breaking out of the mold by trying to have this friendship with Maria, even though it's like, a very unhealthy one.
- [33:22]
A
Right. But she's trying to this point and to this point, like, it's very clear that Maria understands the importance of community from a very early age, because even though her mother has killed herself and her father has gone off, she's raised by the aunt. And when the aunt has the episode where she floods the apartment and Ruth's like, you need to. We need to call my parents. We need to call the police, whatever. And Maria says her no, because they will then take me away from her. And she's better off with me than she is alone. So there is this understanding from Maria that, like, you need people, we need people. We need our people, even if they're imperfect. That, like, you show up for people. And that seems to be, like, very important to her. The people who do things for her, she is beholden to in some way. Maybe not in the way that they want with Sheila or Ruth later down the line, but that, like, she does feel an obligation to people.
- [34:22]
B
Yeah. And it seems like Ruth doesn't get that.
- [34:25]
A
No. Ruth has a very transactional understanding of community. Okay, let's take a quick break and come back. I want to talk about Mr. Fournier. Imagine if edibles just made you feel good instead of too high. Consistent, mellow, and super delicious, Lumi Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day de stressor, a midday mood boost, or help getting the best sleep ever, Lumi Gummies has a strain that is right for you. Between hosting a podcast, taking care of the mini stacks, juggling book events, and having a social life, it's hard to find moments of true relaxation. Even when I'm winding down in the evening, it can feel impossible to release the stress and tension of the day. Luckily, you can use Lumi Gummies to attain that full body relaxation. Just pop in a gummy and let the stress melt away. One hour later, you'll be knocked out. Best sleep ever. Lumi Gummies are available nationwide. Go to lumigummies.com that's L U M I gummies.com and use code the stacks for 30% off your order. Again, that's L U M I gums.com code the stacks lumigummies.com code the stacks here on the stacks I have talked to countless debut authors who spend years of dreaming of the day they will finally see their books out in the world. Some of them have even told stories about envisioning where they would see their books on bookshelves in the bookstore when it finally comes out. They had the ideas, they wrote the words. All that was left was finding a publisher to bring their stories stories to life. And if you're finding yourself in that same boat, I'd love to introduce you to Ingram Spark. IngramSpark is an award winning publishing platform that provides everything you need to successfully self publish your book. It costs nothing to sign up and upload your book and with free publishing tools and resources, you can focus on what you do best, which is of course, writing your story. While IngramSpark makes it possible to share that story with the world. When you self publish with IngramSpark, you are automatically plugged into one of the publishing industry's largest global book distribution network, giving you access to over 45,000 retailers, including independent bookstores and libraries ready to bring your story to life. Get 15% off your first order of 15 or more books using code STACKS15. This offer expires at the end of the year, so get started today with Vrbal's last minute deals. You can save over $50 on your spring getaway. So whether it's a mountain escape with friends, a family week at the beach, or sightseeing in a new city, there's still time to get great discounts. Book your next day now. Average savings $72 select homes only. Okay, we're back. The girls are in their sort of. It sounds like they start in third grade at this school. They started in third grade, they were 9ish. But it takes them all the way through graduation. So I don't know if they came into the school late. If it's like one of those weird schools that starts in third grade, I don't know. But they started this school at that age. Uh, it's a white school, it's called Our Lady Catholic. And there's like a music choir, theater teacher, Mr. Fournier, who has a very upsetting, uncomfortable, undefined relationship with Maria. He is one of the people who is close to Maria. He gives her jewelry, he and his wife bring her and her aunt groceries. What did you make of this?
- [38:18]
B
So I definitely, again, this is one of those subversion. I thought we were definitely going in the direction if this guy is clearly a pedophile who has become sexually attached to Maria and has maybe acted on it in some way, and involving his wife as a caretaker as like a charity caretaker would be a really good cover for like, oh, wife, this is a student. This is the student. You know, I pay extra attention to you because she's. She's very much in need. And I think it's, like, repeatedly implied. But again, with the unknowability, we never really find out. And whatever it is, if Maria is scarred by it, we don't see it. And. And there is kind of. So Mr. Fournier, I was also trying to figure out in what way was the fact that he is a Quebec error relevant because he's. He's a French Canadian. And we get this comes up. We get told this at least once, maybe twice.
- [39:21]
A
Yeah.
- [39:22]
B
And it's almost like maybe part of the confusion for Ruth is, is he different because he's off or is he different because he's foreign? Which is like a weird thing for her to.
- [39:37]
A
Is this a cultural thing or is this a abuse thing?
- [39:41]
B
Right. Is it a cultural thing or is it an abuse thing? But also kind of odd, given that they are children of immigrants, to maybe be skeptical of another immigrant in this way.
- [39:52]
A
Right. But also, to be fair, like, I don't think she's ever seen a man take interest in a child in that sort of way. Like, her dad is caring, but, like, also sort of distant like we talked about. So maybe, like, I don't know. I mean, I thought for sure we were getting he's an abuser. But you're right. We don't ever see the impact of that relationship. However, again, we have this such a limited perspective, right? Like, by the time we get to the end of the book, we discover that Ruth is pretty for all the things that Maria is, which is like selfish, oblivion, oblivious, manipulative, narcissistic, all these things. Ruth is equally those things in a more. A more palatable version of those things. Right. Like a more acceptable version of those things for women to be. And I'm using acceptable sort of in air quotes.
- [40:41]
B
She's quieter, right?
- [40:43]
A
She's quieter, understated, but she is doing all of the same types of things, just in her own way. So I'm wondering if, like, the reason we don't see the impact of the abuse is because she's not worried about that. She's just worried that Maria's back home, that Maria's paying attention to her. And, like, she only really thinks about Mr. Fournier when it's in. When he's an impediment to her being with Maria.
- [41:15]
B
So actually, now that you say that, it occurs to me that this is actually a good argument for why Ruth doesn't have kind of this moment of like, oh, I'm gay or bisexual or queer or pansexual, whatever version it is. Because there is a way in which she never lets herself fully care for Maria because she doesn't. She's concerned about the appearance of. Is Maria doing things that are right and wrong? Right. Like, should she be drinking? Should she be doing those drugs? Should she be hanging out with that RISD student and buying drugs off of her or whatever? But there's. It's true that we never really see more Ruth internalize. Is Maria being harmed by this person beyond. Does that impact.
- [42:06]
A
Am I gonna get in trouble?
- [42:08]
B
And am I no longer the epicenter of Maria's universe?
- [42:11]
A
Right.
- [42:11]
B
I need to be the epicenter of Maria's. And that's not to. I don't want to say that. That's not aversion. That is a way that love between people happens because people are often unhealthy and how they love.
- [42:22]
A
Yes, right. Yes.
- [42:24]
B
But there is an element that she's never able to look at Maria's life as Maria's life without reference to what does this mean for Ruth's life and Ruth's relationship with Maria. And I think at the high school level, you can almost excuse this because there is kind of this running thread. If there are things that they don't know, they're very naive because they've gone to this Catholic school and have been kind of sheltered in a way. But she does say repeatedly there are rumors about Mr. Fournier, which means that, like, what are those rumors? She never actually says. She doesn't dwell on. She doesn't sit there with the. The reader and say, like, I thought about what those rumors might be.
- [43:09]
A
Right. Yeah. It's a really interesting way to. I mean, this is. This, to me, is what makes this book so good. It's like, there's all of these just, like, things in the air. Just things in the air. And, like, there's so many parallel relationships in the book. Like, I kept writing down things as I took notes. Like, I wrote down, like, relationships modeled to Ruth because I was thinking about the epigraph of, like, this education, it's like, okay, Ruth's parents, sheila and Maria, Mr. Fournier and Maria. Hildy and Moser, like, these, like, really fucked up sort of relationships. And then, you know, this other question that comes up with Mr. Fournier and comes up with Maria and Ruth. Maria, Mr. Fournier, Maria and Sheila, Hildy and Moser, Ed and Ruth. James, to some extent, is like, are you entitled to things because of your generosity? Are you. Are people beholden to you forever because you were generous with them? Can you ever be your own person if someone has ever helped you? Right. Because that is sort of the thing that happens with Maria is everyone is like, well, I want a piece of her. I want a piece of this. Because I did this thing. And I did this thing. But we also see this with so many of these other relationships throughout the book. And I don't know, I just. I kept thinking about this because to me, it's one of the central issues of the book is like, how can you create in a world where we don't value art monetarily if you don't have money going in? Right? Like, how can you be the thing that you want to be? How can you realize your dreams if there's no money in it? And we live in a capitalist society, right? Like, there's a part where Ruth says her paintings were looking at her like, you just want to make money, and they're not wrong. And I'm like, yeah, but why is that any different than anyone else's job? Why should making art be different?
- [45:02]
B
Yeah, this actually made me think about that meltdown that happened on social media last month because Veronica Roth announced that she was returning to the Divergent Universe. And, you know, Veronica is like, a wildly successful author financially. And I think. I don't know her. Her money like that, but I think can kind of do what she wants, right? And so is making the decision to go back to the Divergent Universe. And a bunch of people were like, this is a money grab. And I am. John Scalzi got on, jumped on, and was like, when I write a book, it's a money grab, because, like, I'm literally trying to make a living as a writer.
- [45:42]
A
It's my job. It's my job.
- [45:45]
B
It's my job. And he was also saying, you know, I write all these books, and nobody ever accuses me of being a money grubber because I'm writing these books. And so he was also pointing out kind of the gender dynamic around this. But I think the interesting thing about Ruth and Her relationship to her art is that we never have a moment in the book where Ruth is like, I like doing art. I've realized that this is what I want to be and who I want to be.
- [46:11]
A
We have one moment of that when Maria is missing and they can't find her that night. And she has the talk about trauma with her dad and the mom calls Mr. Fournier and he's like, she's not here. And then Ruth later goes in her room and she draws the picture of Maria as a missing person on the milk carton. And she says, like, for the first time, like, time stopped for me, it was all I wanted to do. Or like, something like that. She. She talks about this. This feeling of the feeling of the creating of the art being something that was like, fulfilling to her.
- [46:44]
B
I guess, like, for me, that wasn't enough of a statement. If this is what I should do with my life, given the life that you're that unfortunately, society has set it up such that you're signing up for this life when, when you become an artist.
- [46:59]
A
I agree with you. I agree with you that we don't get enough of it. But there is that one glimmer of it. I think my interpretation is like, she likes painting, but also she, like, wants to do whatever Maria's doing Well.
- [47:12]
B
So I think the thing that I was very conscious of, what I was going to say is that Maria is the one who tells her, you're going to be an artist and we're going to go to Bard and do art at the same time. And for me, that is the governing principle in her decision to become an artist. It's not because she ever has this moment where she's like, yes, I should major in art, because this is like a sensible thing for me to do spiritually. We see that she likes to draw and that she just kind of does it when she's left to her own devices. And so we see that that potential is there and in a sense, coming back to this kind of questions of transactions and who gives. Ruth has this perspective that she's always doing things for Maria, but Maria is literally the only one of the two of them who has thought about Ruth needs to do something with herself in the future. And I have figured out something that Ruth can do with herself and will probably be success at doing, which is how, like, at the end of the day, even though Maria is maybe the more highly sought after artist at the beginning, Ruth is the one who actually makes it as an artist. And I think you can argue that Maria was prescient enough to see that for what it was. And there's an element of that that's also about not only does Ruth not look at Maria, but Ruth doesn't look at herself.
- [48:30]
A
But see, I feel like you're making this case for me that Maria is a lot more like, a lot more compassionate and caring of a friend than Ruth. Than we're given, than we're told by Ruth that she is like, that she is actually more available, that she is more willing to like connect. Like she immediately clocks. So they go to college. Ruth is in this art class. The teacher is this Mr. Moser guy or Moser, who becomes her mentor later, who we meet in the first chapter and throughout. And there's this other, this British guy, James, who everybody likes. And then like he shows interest in Ruth. Ruth's like all into it. Maria instantly is like that guy. He ain't. And Ruth takes it as like, oh, she's jealous of me. And maybe she is, but also she does clock this scammer dude, right? And like later, after he steals her money, goes back to England, tells her he's going to kill himself, deletes his email, blah, blah, blah. He starts sending her letters in New York. And we find out towards the end of the book that Maria has kept the letter, kept the letters from Ruth to protect Ruth from like making a stupid mistake and like not going out to be her own person. She's like, you needed to be your own person. You need to do your own thing. The same thing happens with Ed. She clocks Ed. This one feels slightly more like jealousy or controlling. But even still that there's some. She is somewhat thinking about Ruth in a way that Ruth is not maybe thinking about herself because it's hard to think about yourself when you're inside a thing like that. But also in a way that Ruth does not seem to be thinking about Maria and Maria's well being the withholding of the letters.
- [50:10]
B
I thought that was like, that comes from a beautiful place and was also a very fucked up thing to do.
- [50:15]
A
It's so fucked up. It's both of those things I told. And it's very in your 20s, right? It's very. I'm 22. Right.
- [50:22]
B
And I, I think there is a way in which the ways in which they love each other is not legible to either of them. Like because, yeah, it's almost like when they have different love languages. Like if we're going to be corny and say, like they have different love languages and also they don't know how to read each other's love languages. And both of them come from the perspective of, I know what the other one needs. And so I'm going to try and make those choices. And I think Maria is a lot more cognizant of this dynamic than Ruth is. Maria understands that that's what Ruth is trying to do. And that's one of the reasons that she tolerates it when Ruth is annoying to her is because she understands Ruth's intention. And all Ruth can interpret things through is the perspective of, I don't feel loved in the way that I wanted to be love. It's because she's withholding love from me.
- [51:19]
A
Yes. Like, it's a punishment.
- [51:21]
B
Right.
- [51:21]
A
Or like, intentional, which.
- [51:22]
B
I think you're. Back to her family dynamic. I think a lot of that has to do with her mother and her father and like, the fact that, like, none of them knew how to relate in, in a healthy, in, in a healthy way. I will say the part where Maria is like, don't go. Let's both leave our spouses and also, let's get a hotel together. But also, we're not going to have sex, but we are going to sleep together and make this plan to break up. I just thought, I mean, obviously, you know, as the reader, this is a tragedy. This is like, this is. There's no way this is working.
- [52:02]
A
The moment she calls and says, come to my apartment, I said, don't go.
- [52:07]
B
I know. You know it's a tragedy. I will say that I don't think that Maria should have died for it. Right. But I do think that what she did there was pretty atrocious and is almost like deeply, all of the bad things that Ruth had done over the years of not being concerned with Maria's actual material, well, being in the ways that she should have been are all kinds of. It's kind of like a retribution that's all balled up into one thing, which was like. And it's almost like I didn't love you back because, like, you couldn't. I couldn't trust the love that you were giving me. And now I'm going to give you what that feels like all in one big God awful.
- [52:52]
A
Like. Right. I mean, that was. That was a very difficult section to read. Like, that part of the book. I was just like, this is just. It's like you said, you just know it's a tragedy. You just know. You just know it's not good, though. I wasn't. I. I wasn't sure how I didn't know that it was the kind of tragedy that it was. I don't think. Even though she says, like, she longs for Maria, in the beginning I just assumed that they had had a falling out. I didn't know that she was gonna
- [53:22]
B
be dead and that we wouldn't know how. Like. Like the decision to not tell us exactly. Like, I mean, I think we're supposed to assume that it was probably suicide. I don't. Did you interpret it differently?
- [53:34]
A
That's how I assumed. That's what I thought at the end when I went back to the first chapter and the way that she started acting weird when the other woman said suicide. Because there are a lot of suicides throughout the book, right. Like Maria's mother, then the mother in law, James, or. Yeah, James sort of pretends like he's gonna kill himself. Like, it comes up a lot. Yeah, so that was my assumption. Especially after she goes to the bar and the man's like, well, just tell them how you feel, or whatever. And it sort of felt like it was like an unrequited love suicide situation. But also that, like, you know, Maria also is extremely troubled and she does have this, like, trauma from an early age. And like, there is so much that. There's also a world that it was not about Ruth at all. Right. Like. Like, there is a world where just, like, life got too hard for her and. And maybe, you know, Ruth. Maybe Ruth is a part of it, but, like, there was a lot going on for her. And like, you know, the drugs and the alcohol and like, the whole, like, it just was like a. You know, there's so many factors, and she's poor and she's reliant on this other person. Even when they're, like, making a plan to escape, it's like, where will we go? Oh, well, Sheila's like, aunt and uncle have this house. Like, wait, what? But wait, before we get. I mean, we kind of went to the end. But I do want to talk about a few other scenes, one of which is that earlier in the book, after the stuff with James, Maria comes over to Ruth, takes her to, like, a river or a lake. They hook up. At which point Maria. Ruth has a blood clot situation with her pregnancy that she doesn't know about. And so again, to me, that also is a similar. Like, they finally have this moment and then, like, this horrible thing happened. And so I thought that was interesting too. Like this. This, like, punishment again, it feels in some ways like a punishment for them, like, finally connecting.
- [55:31]
B
I mean, this is like, very Much. I am very Jewish and very much not Catholic, but it does feel like there is some kind of Catholic thread there about, like, when she's finally going to have, like, the love is going to be requited between Ruth and Maria, and then Ruth is punished by this, like, what? Read to me. I actually thought it was going to be an ectopic pregnancy kind of situation.
- [55:56]
A
I thought so, too. Or like a miscarriage or something.
- [55:59]
B
Right. And that their, like, intercourse is literally interrupted by this product of her prior sexual liaison with a man. Which also I think that there is, like, kind of a question there of, like, whether introducing men as sexual partners into Ruth's life is an impurity in Ruth's life. And that this is kind of the manifestation of that, that as long as she envisions herself as someone who has relationships, sexual relationships with men, that she will never be able to have the sexual relationship that actually, deep down, it's very obvious that she actually wants. And you pair this also with what the. There's that scene at the party where Ruth is like, no, no, Maria's gay. I'm straight. And you're like, the lady doth protest too much. Like, well, someone.
- [56:56]
A
Five years. Someone's like, yeah, yeah, give it a few years.
- [57:00]
B
Right? Like, give me it. Give it a few years. And I think that that moment is kind of. I actually think that Ruth is not. I don't think she's bisexual. I don't think that she. I. She's definitely not straight, but I don't think she's bisexual. I think that she is gay and not dealing with it because she puts all of her gayness onto Maria. Like, I'm. I'm a Maria. She thinks she's a mariasexual.
- [57:25]
A
I think that we hear, like, when she hooks up with Hildy, she's like, I got my first orgasm.
- [57:30]
B
Right?
- [57:31]
A
And her and James only had sex the one time. And she talks about having sex with Ed. And like, later on, it's like, I went to therapy and I finally like having sex with Ed. And it's like. But when you hook up with Hildy and when you hook up with Maria, it's like fireworks.
- [57:48]
B
You didn't need therapy to enjoy sex with a woman.
- [57:52]
A
Right? Right, right, right, right, right. And Ed, who we've not talked about at all, but Ed is a guy she meets at this party. He's very nice. He comes from a prominent black family. That's the language that's used around him. He has some money, but not a ton of money. Enough to support them, but like money's not, it's not like Sheila free flowing. He is a writer, he's a novelist who maybe had some success at an early age and is sort of stalled out, it feels like. And he's a nice guy, kind of conservative in his is.
- [58:24]
B
And older.
- [58:26]
A
Older. He's like 35 and she's like 23 or 4, I think. Right. And he has some success and he's sort of conservative and he kind of likes having her as a kept woman and he gives her a space to paint and he provides for her. And again, we have this sort of patron artist dynamic. Maria doesn't like him from the beginning. This one feels more like, like, I mean, it feels like she's right and also like she's jealous. I liked Ed. I, like, I felt bad for Ed. I felt like, I felt like Ed should have known better. Like, I felt like at a certain point Ed should have been like, this isn't it. We know this isn't it, I think. But I do feel like the sunk cost fallacy part of it all. Like I do. I had sympathy for Ed in a way, in a way, in a more generous way than I think. I had sympathy, sympathy for either Ruth or Maria and certainly more sympathy than I had for Sheila, I guess.
- [59:25]
B
Here's what I will say. And again, I just feel like I couldn't be like objective about this book. Like Ed reminded me of my frosh year there in college. There was a guy who was like a couple of years ahead of me who kept taking me out for like my favorite cheese fries from this like one place by campus and would just like listen to me talk about like, like my latest romantic drama. And this is the year before I came out. So this was like all with like different guys. And I would be like, oh, I'm like heartbroken. I broke up with this one, et cetera. So this guy must have been like 20, 21. And I was 17. Just for, for context, I was a 17 year old trash. And I don't think that age difference for me that's not a problem in terms of like, like, I don't think it was pedophilic or anything like that. But I was young. So I'm just sitting there and I'm like this. And I had lots of guy friends in high school, so I. It was normal for me to talk to a guy a lot. And then, you know, at some point this guy sends me a really angry email and he's like, you know, I'm right Here, and you're always just talking about these other men, and you don't realize that I'm right here. And Ed kind of reminded me of him in the sense that, like, Ruth was just too young to understand what she was doing there. And he was old enough that he and, and was also an adjunct professor, so he's actually teaching people who are about her age. He should have known that this is a person who has not figured herself out. And the kinds of emotional pressure he was putting on her to be available to him in certain ways was actually, like, really inappropriate. I guess it just kind of reminded me of that moment of, like, yeah, you should know better than to want that from someone who is at that age and at that life stage. And I'm more forgiving. Like, the guy in college who, who's, like, actually doing very well now. Like, I, I, he was young enough that, like, I imagine being stupid enough to not realize that age difference, but when you're in your 30s, you're supposed to be aware of that. And I found that kind of frustrating about Ed.
- [61:34]
A
I agree. I mean, I, I feel like Ed, I feel like they all have issues. Like, but I felt like of all the main characters, I was the most sympathetic towards him because I did feel like. I don't know, I sort of felt like he didn't know what to do. Like, I felt like he was in a situation that just felt impossible to him. And, like, maybe because men are immature and, like, can't, like, like, Like, Ed has his own issues. Right. Like, I'm not. I don't think that Ed's great. Like, I wouldn't want to, but I felt like, compared to Sheila, who so clearly was wielding her money and was like, so I hate. Manipulative. Yeah. Like, I feel like I was more sympathetic to Ed, I guess, than I was to Sheila. But also, Ed had a lot of ick factors, for sure. And you're totally right. Like, it was a really. There's just so much manipulation in this book which feels true to life. Like, people are really, I think, manipulating each other a lot, especially young artists. That is a world that I was in for a long time. And I have friends now who are extremely successful, talented people who have done the things that you dream to do as actors. However, I remember what it was like in our twenties in New York and, like, how cunning and how this and that and who do you know and who has money and whose parents this and that. Like, so I could relate to a lot of, like, that piece of the book. And like the jealousy and the like feeling like you're owed something because you've done just as good. There's a bit in the book where it's like, does one of us need to fail so the other one can win? And I was like, that is such a twenties, what do they call it? Zero sum bias? Yeah, like it's like such a 20 year old in your 20s. That's how you think about art and like creating. And I think some people never can fully shake that. But that to me was like, I underlined that line. I was like, this is, this is, this is the thing.
- [63:33]
B
I think I sympathize the most with Ruth's father and with Maria.
- [63:40]
A
And I think Maria, for me, I think I was mostly team Maria.
- [63:44]
B
I really. And maybe this is just like me as like a political thinker I am. Maria is structurally the one who is most trapped out of anybody in, in the story. She's the most de. Resourced person and she's the one in the deepest well of lake.
- [64:02]
A
Her.
- [64:02]
B
The, the hand that she has been dealt is fucked. And it's very hard for people to come out of that kind of situation mentally well and able to pursue the resources that structurally they are not supposed to have access to because everything has been organized around treating someone like her is completely disposable. And I really, it broke my heart, I guess, that she doesn't survive that.
- [64:38]
A
Yeah, I definitely think that I ended up being most fond of Maria of all the characters. I think she is in many ways, like, because we only see her in bits and pieces through someone else. She's the, she's the most easy to sort of like project onto, given what we know about her life, like the facts of her life. And also the moment Maria called and said, come to my apartment, I said, ruth, don't go. Like, I liked Maria the most, I guess was sympathetic to her the most and also knew that. But it was trouble. Any, Nobody's getting out of this the way we want to get out of this.
- [65:25]
B
I mean, I guess like this really had me, like I mentioned earlier, this like dynamic that I had with this girl Emily, like in high school where like I. I will just say, like she and I were so kind of mutually obsessed that we had like written up an entire document of what like our future lives together would look like right down to you. And this is like very like 90s high school students, like how many phone lines we were going to have because like we both needed to have our own access to the Internet, which like Involved you each having your own phone line. Right. I think that this book had me thinking a lot about how those dynamics can never end well. Or that was kind of like, the lesson that I learned is that because the symmetry that you perceive in that situation of, like, we're very, very focused on each other is inevitably going to be broken by out into the world as adults and being exposed to different pressures and the economic differences between you becoming maybe even more important when you go into adulthood than they were when you were in those economic circumstances as children. And I think for me, I guess if I was thinking about lessons I took away from this book, in a way, it was useful for me to see that there was no way that we were ever going to be able to sustain that, and that actually, that isn't what we should be looking for in our relationships. And I thought that that was a really beautiful meditation, but I really do think I am undecided as beautiful as I thought this book was. And the writing was, like, masterful sticker. In an MFA program, she can teach all the students how to do a sentence. I don't know what I think about the decision to kill Maria at the end. It felt a little bit like a trope. I will say that was like, the one thing in the book where I was like, you didn't have to do that, and the book would have been fine. I don't know.
- [67:24]
A
Right. I think the only reason it worked is because there wasn't anything after. Like, if we had then gotten a scene where she goes to the hospital and, like, says her goodbye, like, I would have been like, get me out of here.
- [67:36]
B
But we do kind of get an after. Because you do have to go back and read. I think you're almost supposed to read the first chapter again.
- [67:41]
A
Again. But I don't think we get an after in the sense of, like. Then I packed my bags and got on the train, and I saw Sheila, and Sheila was so heartbroken. Like. Or like, we didn't get an answer of what happened. And so I feel like that allowed it to. To work, though, for me personally, as I mentioned, I did not have the, like, emotional connection to this book. This was much more of, like, a cerebral exercise for me. So when I got to the end, I said, oh, yeah, sure. Like, I wasn't like, maria, no. I was like, oh, yeah, okay, sure, yeah, no, no, totally. A thousand percent. Like, I was like, this. This works. Like, I see what you did. See how we got here. Wasn't sure. Wasn't sure how you were Gonna end it. I knew we were closing it, like, you know, for me. And it was more satisfying that if it had just ended with her, like, leaving that man in the car and him being like, you're a tease. And her going home and, like, giving Ed a kiss goodnight and getting into bed, like. Like, I felt like it was like a button that. That worked for me. I have a really small question. After the hotel scene, she goes back home. Ed is furious. He's like, you stink. I'm going to my mom's. When I come back, you better be here. Otherwise it's over. She is not there. She's at the hotel waiting for Maria, who's a no show. And then she goes home. He's locked her out. And he basically is like, you suck as an artist. You're lazy. You don't have it.
- [69:12]
B
He.
- [69:13]
A
He tells her off. He calls her all sorts of things. He's like, whatever. Do you think that that moment is what she needed to actually become an artist? Like, a professional artist? Because after that, she starts to have a routine. She gets up every day. It's two hours in the studio, no more, no less. It's like she starts to get rigid. She starts to teach. She starts to do these things. And I was thinking of, like, was that the moment that, like, really solidified her career as an artist?
- [69:44]
B
Yeah. This is an interesting question, because I will say one thing that I thought about a lot while I was reading the second half of the book was the Naya dacosta version of Candyman.
- [69:55]
A
I don't know what any of that means.
- [69:57]
B
Oh, okay. So, like, kind of at the center of the. And this isn't a spoiler. This is kind of like the headline at the center of the story is this black man who's an artist. And is. There is kind of this, like, same narrative around the first chapter, in particular, the relationship with the gallerist and kind of like the sort of racist art buyers that you have to kind of deal with in that environment. And in Candyman, this becomes, like. He develops this unhealthy relationship with the Candyman story from the original movie. And it's actually a really beautiful and not like, jump scary movie. Like, I would actually say. I would recommend people watch it in tandem with lonely crowds. I would say it's a beautifully shot film. And it's just too bad that when it came out, I'm. People were still kind of in shutdown mode, and a lot of people didn't go see the movie. But I thought about that a lot about the way that being a professional and a professionally successful artist in that environment involves playing a game in a particular way. And what's kind of like the Candyman film is about you accept white supremacy and smiling to these. I am condescending white supremacist face art buyers. And kind of what Ed is yelling at Ruth in that moment is that, like, you have to grow up like you. Which, first of all, Ed should be like, if I'm telling my wife, who's, like, much younger than me, that she has to grow up, maybe I should be thinking I should be yelling at myself about my choices. But setting that aside. And I do think that that is the moment where she decides, okay, I am not spiritually connected with this in the healthy way that I would want an artist like me Chanda. That I would want an artist to be. But she's like, okay, I can play this game. I know how to play games. And then she does it. And that's what we see in the first chapter, is that she knows how to go through the motions. You go to dinner with your husband's friends who you don't really care for, but now this is, like, what you do when you are a successful New York artist. And she plays. Plays the part.
- [72:12]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. Okay, we're, like, so totally out of time. But quickly, quickly. I want to talk about the title and the COVID First of all, who is on the COVID in your mind? Is it Ruth or is it Maria?
- [72:25]
B
It's Ruth's mother.
- [72:27]
A
That's Bruce Mother.
- [72:28]
B
That's kind of like. I think that that's just, like, who spiritually, in my head, I mean, I
- [72:34]
A
think that you think Ruth's mother smoked cigarettes.
- [72:38]
B
She's the one that I envision. Yes. I totally envision Ruth's mom. The secret vice that, like, the rest of the family doesn't know about as kind of like nicotine as a coping mechanism.
- [72:49]
A
I think this is why I love you. Because you literally just were like, it's a totally third person. I was like, is it A or B? And you were like, it's F, actually.
- [72:57]
B
But I guess, like, in saying it's Ruth's mother, I'm also saying it's Ruth because, like, I do think that actually a lot of the book is Ruth trying to be her mom in a way, while trying to get her mom's attention. Like, she doesn't. This is her entire, entire understanding of womanhood and how women relate to other people is organized around what her childlike understanding of her mother is a very immature understanding of her mother. But so I guess, like I will say it's Ruth in chapter one.
- [73:30]
A
Got it. I couldn't decide. I went back and forth. I looked at the picture a lot. There's lots of different context clues. Like, there's the part where Maria cuts her hair very short. But then also we hear, like. Like, you know, Ruth says she only wears black, but this person has a wedding ring on. Like, there's just, like, all these different things. And then there's a point where I believe Ruth does cut her hair short. And he takes a picture of her outside, like a car smoking a cigarette. And then she hides a cigarette. I was like, I don't know. So I still don't know. Ruth's mother did not come. Did not come to me. I think it's Maria, because I think it's Ruth. Ruth is observing Maria. So our. We're first person. So we're looking at her. We're never seeing Ruth. Ruth Foley. That would be my guess. But.
- [74:12]
B
But there's also this moment where Maria uses this footage of Ruth in one of her art pieces.
- [74:20]
A
Oh, yes. And then the paintings that Maria tells Ruth to throw away.
- [74:25]
B
Yeah. So I mean. I mean, obvious. The obvious answer is that it's supposed to be both of them. Sure. And that actually, like, each of them looking at the COVID is going to see, like, the. Is the other's perspective. They're each other's perspective. I guess because there is this moment where Maria's like, yeah, I took this film footage of you. And then I'm telling you at the art opening, I hope it's okay that you're in this artwork.
- [74:54]
A
She's like, I know it's weird to see yourself in art. And then Ruth's like, yeah, no, it's cool. And then she's like, why did I say it was cool? So weird to say.
- [75:01]
B
And at the same time, I. I'm actually realizing. I was like, very, like, ew. And then I was like, but this is kind of of again, her kind of coming back and being like, you did all those drawings of me, and I didn't want you to have them. So there is kind of this, like, symmetrization of Maria starts to do the things to Ruth that Ruth had been doing to Maria the whole time.
- [75:24]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Title. Lonely Crowds.
- [75:28]
B
I thought it was really good.
- [75:30]
A
For whatever reason, I cannot remember the title of this book.
- [75:32]
B
I struggled with that, too.
- [75:34]
A
I kept calling it Ordinary Notes, like the Christina Sharp book. I have no idea why, but for whatever reason, before I ever read it, like, I could not remember the title of this book. I literally did it two days ago when I was in the middle of reading the book. Could not remember it. I think it's a fine title, but I just. I wish that it stuck in my brain better. I don't think it's a great title.
- [75:55]
B
Yeah. So I think it's a good title for the content. I'm not sure it's a great title for marketing, if that makes sense, because I think it's.
- [76:03]
A
Yeah.
- [76:03]
B
It captures the feeling of the book, which is that, like, they. They are both dealing with their own versions of loneliness, even as they are often surrounded by people. And I will say, also, I ended up reading a significant chunk of the book both right before and right after I saw Is God Is. And the narrative about twins dealing with trauma and Is God Is definitely became kind of wrapped up in my mind. And I do feel like. Like, in a way, that strength. I do think the word lonely was Lonely Crowds evokes the right image. But I agree, like, it was one. I think I kept thinking, like, ordinary crowds or like, ordinary. I guess it reminded me of the film Ordinary People and that Ordinary People is also kind of conceptually about up. Family dynamics. Right.
- [76:55]
A
Yes. It just didn't. It didn't have a stickiness, not even from a marketing standpoint, but just like. Like, in my brain. Like, those just words just did not latch on for me. I think also because the words are both sort of pedestrian words. Like, there's nothing that's really grabby about it. Like, I read that book that came out this year. I think it's called Upward Bound. I think that's what it was called. And also found, like, that was. It's really hard for me to remember. It's just like two words like. Like, yes, I know Upward bound is used more together. But, like, this was just a hard. Hard for me to lock into. Okay, we did it. We went over time, as I always do for book club, but it was worth it. And if you read the book with us, you wanted that. There's things we didn't even get to that you want. And if you want to talk more about this book, make sure you join the Stacks Book Club on Patreon because we do a monthly virtual book club chat where we talk about the book as a group. You can join us@patreon.com the stacks to do that. And be sure to listen to the end of today's episode where I will tell you our. Our June book club pick. It's a crazy one. You're gonna hate me, but we're gonna have a good time and I can't wait. Chanda, thank you so much for reading this with me. Thank you for picking this as our book club pick. I tried to force you to do non fiction. You said no. I never get to talk about fiction and I don't know why not. Because you're good at it. It was a joy. Thank you.
- [78:20]
B
Thank you for having me. And I also just want to shout out Loyalty bookstore in Washington D.C. because they put this book in an email in January, I think, and that's how I found out about it. So I just want to give black, Asian and queer owned bookstore credit for putting that book in front of me.
- [78:36]
A
I also we have to shout out MJ Franklin then from the New York Times who put this on our 10 best books of the year in 2025. So shout out to black and queer book people and black, Asian and queer book people and shout out to book people. We did it. And everyone else, we will see you in the stack. All right, y', all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Chanda Prescott Weinstein for joining the show. And another thank you to Rose Cronin Jackman for making this episode possible. Now it's time for our June book club announcement. We will be discussing the Alchemist by Paolo Copeland. This is a controversial book that is both beloved and abhorred by many, many readers and we're gonna break it all down. Tune in next Wednesday to find out who our guest will be for this conversation. If you love the stacks and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcast. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please take a moment right now. Leave us a quick little review. Give us five stars. Let the people know that you're listening and you're loving this show. For more from the Stacks, you can always follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on instagram, threads and YouTube and you can check out our website@thestaxpodcast.com today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Cherie Marquez and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.