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- [00:01]
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- [00:28]
Mary HK Choi
or situations just to be chaotic. I think if you haven't had a book out since before COVID and you do not, hell, you're a debut.
- [00:36]
Tracy Thomas
It starts so do you think Tayari Jones is a debut?
- [00:40]
Mary HK Choi
Yeah. And it's so impressive that she makes.
- [00:42]
Tracy Thomas
It's so impressive what she's done with Kin for a debut. It's incredible.
- [00:46]
Mary HK Choi
No, I mean, like, I think the part that I'm really just trying to say any book coming out right now feels like a subversion and a weird kind of insurrection against the tide of what is happening to the attention economy.
- [00:58]
Tracy Thomas
Yes.
- [00:58]
Mary HK Choi
And, and that part feels wild. Like when I look around I'm like, books are so trending. However, nobody really wants new books and nobody really wants books by like, authors.
- [01:16]
Tracy Thomas
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas, and today we are joined by bestselling author Mary HK Choi. She's here to discuss her her first adult novel, Pool House. Set against the backdrop of Hollywood, this book explores the complex relationship between Stevie and her mother Moon as they move into their glass walled pool house when financial struggles force them to rent out their home. Today, Mary and I talk about writing a book in today's attention economy. We talk about the differences between YA and adult literary spaces and Mary shares one of the best answers to the reading snacks question we have ever had on the podcast. Get excited people. Our book club pick for June is the Alchemist by Paulo Coelo and we'll discuss the book with Mary HK Choi on Wednesday, June 24. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show notes. And if you like this podcast, if you want more of it, if you want bookish content, if you want a readerly community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on substack at each place, you're going to get different perks. Things like our bonus episode Access to the Discord Monthly Book Club Conversations Conversations, my non fiction reading guide. It's all sorts of stuff. And when you join, you make it possible for me to make this podcast. So head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack, and you can subscribe to my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com all right, now it is time for my conversation with Mary HK Choi. All right, everybody, this is a day I've been waiting for. I finally get to have one of my favorite people, one of the coolest people I know. Even though she'll say she's not cool, but don't listen to her. She doesn't know anything. It is Mary HK Choi, back in the stacks. Welcome back, Mary.
- [03:11]
Mary HK Choi
Yay. I'm so happy. Like, I love that we're talking, because obviously I'm obsessed with you, but I'm also just, like, so happy because this means I'm finally done with this book, which is thrilling.
- [03:21]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, so the book is called Pool House. Here it is. It's got a perfect color cover. You are the queen of a good cover. You've had four great covers.
- [03:30]
Mary HK Choi
Thank you. Thank you. I'll take that. Do you.
- [03:32]
Tracy Thomas
Do you weigh in?
- [03:34]
Mary HK Choi
I do weigh in. I'm a big weigher inner. And I learned actually that in ya, some people don't weigh in. Some people do. I weighed in a lot. Like, I sent, like, drawings and, like, signage and, like, vibes and, like, playlist and, like, you know, like, all of these, like, different artists and things like that. And for this one, I also weighed in, but apparently it's less, dare I say, traditional to weigh in in the adult world.
- [03:58]
Tracy Thomas
I think it just depends on, like, how involved in the publishing world you are. Like, if you kind of, like, have the chops, you can weigh in. But if you're, like, a debut author, I feel like they're a little bit more like.
- [04:14]
Mary HK Choi
Well, I actually think I've spoken to other authors, and apparently some people prefer not to weigh in, which is unusual. But also, like, I don't know your. I don't know your process. I don't know, you know, not my rodeo, not my clowns, not my anything. But, like, I. I think it's like, I think it really depends on, like, the publisher and the relationship and the vibes. And so, like, and they were very, very nice. They were very patient. But I do know that when I was like, hey, can I just talk to your art director real quick? They were like, no. Or they were like, no, not like, no, no. But like. And I was like, oh, this is not. This is not something that happens. But they. Everyone Was so nice. Everyone was like, so, you know. And these guys are pros. Like, they know what they're doing. I did open the conversation with like. So I'm thinking kind of like, how much is it to clear a Hockney?
- [05:08]
Tracy Thomas
I'm sure they love that as a
- [05:09]
Mary HK Choi
starting place, you know, like, I like to open big. I like to open emphatic. No. Because I also just wondered. I was just like. Like, it's books. Like, how many? How many?
- [05:17]
Tracy Thomas
Did they give you an answer?
- [05:18]
Mary HK Choi
No, they didn't. But they were so. But even as like a sort of like, you know, like the first signal, like, how do they take something like this? They were so, so gracious. Like, they. They didn't, like, just yell at me, being like.
- [05:33]
Tracy Thomas
They were just like, get out. This is why we don't want authors in these fucking meetings.
- [05:38]
Mary HK Choi
This is why you guys are forbidden. This is for. No, they were very, very patient and gracious. And we kind of, like, worked from the there. And I did end up speaking with the art director, who is wonderful and has done so many iconic book covers. And so. And so at that point, it was much more that I had a lot of opinions about, you know, just, like, small things, like something as simple as. I think that in a sans serif font, like Pool House, like, on the spine. I was just like. I think having my full name on there is weird. Like, can we just have choi? Like, yeah, so, like, just little tweaks like that. Even something like, you know, the. The UK edition, they didn't have the font that we wanted. And so they were like, this one's close. And I was like, I'm gonna need you to, like, figure out the tracking a little bit on these. It was just. I'm annoying and everyone was so nice.
- [06:25]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I love it. You're just, like, so detail oriented. And I wanna talk about that. But first. But first, we jumped into the COVID but we didn't. You gotta tell people a little bit about yourself. I actually don't know the answer to this question, which is like, what is your story with books? How did you come to being a writer of novels? I know that you were a journalist. Like, can you give us, like, a little backstory? Where are you from? What do you. What do you remember reading as a kid? Like, bring us up to date.
- [06:54]
Mary HK Choi
Okay. Okay. Well, first of all, I'm old as hell, so I'm not going to start at the very, very beginning.
- [06:59]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. And first there was light. Okay. And then what happened?
- [07:04]
Mary HK Choi
Then he said it was good. No, I mean, Basically, it's like I was never the person. Person who loved writing. That was never, ever my story. Like, I have always loved reading because mostly I love disassociating and I love compartmentalizing. I love leaving my body for dead as I just, like, traipse off into a fantasy land. So, like, that's been a big part of my life, just reading, reading, reading. And it's like, everything from, like, Sweet Valley High to, like, VC Andrews to, like, random books like Adrienne Mole or, like, Flossy Tea Cakes for a Coat, like, all these very random things, and I enjoyed them very much. But I didn't like writing. It was tedious. I was always the person if there was a written assignment. I was just like, ugh. Like, why? Why would anybody. This seems, like, really unnecessarily cruel. But then I went to school for fashion, but I'd always also loved magazines. And so I was just like, I will move to New York and I will go into magazines. Except, you know, no one wanted me because I was done with school. I'd gone to school for retail and merchandising, basically, like, textiles and fashion. And by the time I'd moved to New York, it was to be, like, part of the corporate program at Saks to learn how to be a buyer. But I just. Something about it. I was just like, I don't think this is it for me. And then I started interning at a graffiti magazine out of Red hook, Brooklyn, like, 23 years ago, 22 years ago. A long, long time ago. And that's where I first started writing. And I really loved it. But I never. I never imagined myself because I never knew any authors growing up. Like, the sort of author that I looked at growing up was, like, Judy Blume or, like, you know, Amy Tan and even those particular authors. It was like, that just had nothing to do with me. It was like, if they were like, mer people. And I was like, I love these mer people. I love mer person. But it was like, I didn't think that I would, like, I don't know, like, swim to Atlantis and, like, become a mer person.
- [09:10]
Tracy Thomas
Become a mer person. And now, like, you're fully mird.
- [09:14]
Mary HK Choi
I'm so mer. And it's like each step feels like the kind of sort of benevolence, like, almost a conspiracy. Because, like, I'm so grateful that I learned how to write with magazines. And then I launched a magazine, and that was really fun. And then I learned how to write there. And then, you know, someone asked me an agent asked me, and I had a different agent, but this agent was like, I love your work. Would you ever write fiction? And I already had an entire book by then.
- [09:42]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, you did?
- [09:43]
Mary HK Choi
I had written. I mean, I think the story is so true for a lot of people. Like, some people are like, I'll write a book. And then they do. And then it just. They're just kind of like, okay, what now? And so that's what I just like
- [09:54]
Tracy Thomas
the thought of just like writing a. I mean, I am a person who truly hates writing, unlike you, who fake hates writing but does it for your job. I. I guess I do do it for my job, but I really hate it. I hate every moment of writing. I hate every part of writing. I even hate having written. I hate that I've wasted my time writing. Cause a lot of writers are like, oh, I hate writing, but I love having written. No, I also hate and resent the time when I'm done having written and I'm like, I just fucking spent all this time writing the stupid thing and I could have just fucking said it once and been done, and instead I have to go back and like, like edit it and like, come back to it another day. Like.
- [10:33]
Mary HK Choi
But here's what. And I know this about you. You're competitive. You like to get your point across. You like your point to be very nuanced. And you want complete, unilateral, total autonomy over the way you said it and what you intended. And so these are all true for me too. I don't necessarily like writing either. I don't necessarily even love having written. You know that, like, you know this entire process, like, at one point my partner was like, at what point do we celebrate? And I was like, get out. You know what I mean? Where it's like, you're like, the whole thing is gruesome.
- [11:00]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And.
- [11:01]
Mary HK Choi
But I also think there are certain things that I want to say, and this is exactly, precisely the way I want to say it. And so unfortunately, like, this is the position I'm in. Like, I'm not one of these people who are like, super woo woo about it. Like, I do think it's magical. I do think transmissions come in. And sometimes I'm like, that was mysterious. But it's like, I don't love that much of this entire thing. Like, even promoting it.
- [11:28]
Tracy Thomas
I'm like, I feel like that part seems like it sucks. That's the part I would like. I would love a book tour. Oh, I would. Can I just actually, can I just go on book tour for You. And I'll be like, oh, yes. I just love, like, writing. And, you know, you're like.
- [11:44]
Mary HK Choi
You're like an actor, though. You're like. You're a thespian. So, like, I would gladly ventriloquize you going on tour for me. And I would just, like, you could wear an earwig, and I just pipe it into your head.
- [11:55]
Tracy Thomas
Could I actually wear, like, a merry wig? Like, have, like, my, like, long, straight black hair and, like, do, like, a full. And, like, wear, like, cool clothes like you.
- [12:03]
Mary HK Choi
I will do your eyeliner every night.
- [12:08]
Tracy Thomas
See, this is a dream. I don't want to be an author. I want to go on book tour. But I. Cause I just like people, and I like talking about books.
- [12:14]
Mary HK Choi
You love people, and I love. I love people, too. And I love talking about books, too. And, like, the thing I love about being on tour, the one part I like is that even the person who is just so inconvenienced to come see me because they enjoy my writing, there is something where we're kind of like, you know, like, game recognized game, where, like, I know they don't want to be outside of their house either.
- [12:34]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [12:35]
Mary HK Choi
You know, and they're, like, in my life looking a little surly, and I'm like. And, like, they're wearing their eyeliner. I'm wearing my eyeliner, and they rock up, and we're just kind of like, all right, bet, like, nobody, like, make eye contact too hard. But, like, this is nice. And so that's, like, really beautiful. And, like, you know, like, I don't write books that are just, like, for everybody. Like, it's like, it's for a specific type of person.
- [12:59]
Tracy Thomas
Well, that's what I think so interesting about you because I do know that. And I also feel like if someone had told me, like, okay, Mary writes books for a certain kind of person, I never would have thought that I was your kind of person on paper. But I am. Like, I love your books, and I love your writing, but I feel like. I don't know. I think I have, like, a complex because I think you're so cool. And I'm like, oh, Mary's, like, too cool.
- [13:24]
Mary HK Choi
The thing that I think a lot of people conflate blessedly, and I think this is, like, really, really I'm lucky about this is like, I think people are reading my rampant autism as, like, being cool. Like, I'm just sitting here being, like, not making eye contact because, like, it's, like, punishing to me, where I'm just like, oh, I'm gonna die. Like, I'm gonna self immolate from self consciousness. And meanwhile, people are like, oh, she's so aloof. I'll take it. But usually I'm just squirming is what's.
- [13:59]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, that. It doesn't come off that way at all.
- [14:01]
Mary HK Choi
That's so nice.
- [14:02]
Tracy Thomas
It comes off very cool. Also, you dress cool and, like, and like, you talk about apples, you know, like, like, like, like being a person who's just like, you know, my content is just going to be like, rating apples on Instagram stories. Like, you have to have a level of, like, coolness to do that. Because, like, a fucking herb could do that and it would be just like, ew, why are they doing fruit?
- [14:25]
Mary HK Choi
But that's the thing. What is dead ass more autistic than a person rating apples? Where I'm like, this is my special interest.
- [14:34]
Tracy Thomas
Like, I'm like, I love it. It's cool. Being autistic is cool. Like, those two things are not mutually exclusive.
- [14:41]
Mary HK Choi
This is 100% what I'm saying. However, not every cool person is autistic. Blessedly, in my circumstance, like, I happen to be autistic, and people find that legible as a kind of cool, which is so nice.
- [14:54]
Tracy Thomas
I wonder how many other people I think are cool are autistic.
- [14:57]
Mary HK Choi
Well, you know, my thing is just, like, telling people they're autistic. Which people. I heard that's kind of an antisocial quality, but I'm sometimes, like, you know, we kind of flock together. Like, interesting. So, like, neurodivergent people really, like, attract other neurodivergent people. And so sometimes I'm like, I will open a conversation like, I'm not saying you're autistic, but if you struggle with socks and shoes, this is what I would recommend for you. And then I'll like, literally, like, send them an entire, like, mood board of, like, I think these are the shoes that would look amazing on you.
- [15:29]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, my God. Okay. Okay. I'm obsessed with this. You did float. Wait, you, on social media, floated two people, two characters that you thought were autistic. One was Zendaya in the drama. And who was the other one? Because I disagreed with the other one.
- [15:41]
Mary HK Choi
Oh, the other one was with the husband and bell bird and strangers.
- [15:45]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, yeah. I don't agree with that.
- [15:46]
Mary HK Choi
He seems so autistic.
- [15:48]
Tracy Thomas
No, he just seems like a.
- [15:49]
Mary HK Choi
You know what? I don't think that book lacks for.
- [15:53]
Tracy Thomas
No, I think he just sucked. Like, I don't. I don't think that he's autistic.
- [15:58]
Mary HK Choi
I think he sucks. But there's something about the definitive way his, like, mind just shut down.
- [16:02]
Tracy Thomas
I saw. See, I see that as narcissistic. I would have gone full narcissist on this. We can. We can debrief on this offline because I have more thoughts that I don't want to say into a microphone, but I do want to tell you because it's pretty.
- [16:15]
Mary HK Choi
I feel like we also already got canceled, like, three times on this already.
- [16:18]
Tracy Thomas
We did. And I just want to say that, like, Mary. It was. Mary was leading this. Okay. I just am responding. That's my job. I just respond to other people. Please don't yell at me. Okay. This is the big question, though, which I literally. It's taken me 15 minutes to get to. We're gonna be so fucked. Is that this is your first adult book.
- [16:39]
Mary HK Choi
It is. I'm a debut. I'm David. I'm debuting.
- [16:42]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. You're not a debut. Do you know that I have, like, truly violent opinions about debut when people use it when they've written three other books.
- [16:51]
Mary HK Choi
What if it's pronounced debut? No, that's fine. Like, people have told me I'm a
- [16:55]
Tracy Thomas
debut, and I hate those people. I don't believe it. I. This is. This is my. This is my stance. Debut means first book, period, exclamation point. Now, if. If. If you self published a book, one book before, and you're traditionally publishing a book as your second book, I will give you debut. If you really, absolutely must say that you wrote a short story collection, and so it's your debut novel, fine. But if you have written a novel, a nonfiction book, 17 YA books, and now this is your debut short story collection. It's not a fudgeing debut. You have 27 books in the bank. You are just writing a short story collection for the first time. But to me, I feel like debut means like, we're supposed to coalesce around you and respond to your work as, like, a person who has not done this before. And therefore, there's like, a kind of way that I read a debut, that I do not read a book from someone who's written a lot of books.
- [17:55]
Mary HK Choi
Yes. And okay, like, I don't disagree with you. However, the one thing I will say is that, like, literary fiction or adult fiction does feel so different in a way, and I can make that distinction and without using the word debut.
- [18:10]
Tracy Thomas
This is your debut adult novel.
- [18:12]
Mary HK Choi
This is my debut adult novel.
- [18:14]
Tracy Thomas
And I feel like that is allowed because it is your first adult novel.
- [18:17]
Mary HK Choi
But you're a writer.
- [18:18]
Tracy Thomas
You've written great books. We've done them on book club. Like you are Mary HK Choi. You're not a fucking debut. No shade to debuts. We love them. Everyone starts somewhere.
- [18:28]
Mary HK Choi
We do love debuts. I think, just to be chaotic, I think if you haven't had a book out since before COVID and you do not, hell, you're a debut.
- [18:36]
Tracy Thomas
It starts. So do you think Tiari Jones is a debut?
- [18:40]
Mary HK Choi
Yeah. And it's so impressive that she.
- [18:42]
Tracy Thomas
It's so impressive what she's done with Kin.
- [18:46]
Mary HK Choi
Did anyone see that coming?
- [18:47]
Tracy Thomas
Not a chance. And it's good for a debut. It's incredible.
- [18:52]
Mary HK Choi
No, I mean, like, I think the part that I'm really just trying to say is, and I do agree with you, there's so much like smoke and mirrors and tricks and stuff to make something a little more shiny than the other thing. And we're all supposed to believe that, like this thing is as shiny as that thing. I don't really care about that. What I will say in this moment, and I know that you've heard this, is that any book coming out right now feels like a subversion and a weird kind of insurrection against the tide of what is happening to the attention economy. What is happening in this five second pivot to video moment. And that part feels wild. Like when I look around, I'm like, books are so trending. However, nobody really wants new books and nobody really wants books by like authors.
- [19:35]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, no, I. So this I agree with. I don't think you're a debut. What I think is exciting and shiny about you is that you are back. The return of Mary HK Choi to me is more exciting than Mary HK Choi's debut. Do you know what I mean?
- [19:49]
Mary HK Choi
100%.
- [19:50]
Tracy Thomas
And I agree with you with the attention economy. I'm suffering from it in a really serious way. Like, I am struggling to read these days, like aggressively so. And I am struggling with. With the way that the book space has changed so much in the last few years where there's a lot of people. And this is not. I'm not denigrating these people at all, but there's a lot of people who are not authors who. People who write, people who are writing books, who feel entitled to the spaces that readers have created for supporting books and authors and people who are like, oh, I'm a this, that, this and that, and now I'm an author and you need to support me. And like that whole thing has been very like a struggle for me. So I'm always really excited to have someone who's like, this is my vocation. I write books. This is what I do. This is who I am. Because there's a different level of, like, care and respect for books and reading that I really appreciate.
- [20:43]
Mary HK Choi
Yeah, but. And I think that sort of delineation or that schism is terror. It is terrifying being to be an author, like, a career author in this moment. Like, I had a point at which, like, a few years ago, I was like, they're all teachers. Not to say that teachers are out here making a living, but I was just like, there is, like, there are, like, two vocations kind of equal one. And I was like, I think I'm missing the other one because, like, every, like, quarter, I almost die of starvation because.
- [21:11]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, because you're not also a teacher.
- [21:13]
Mary HK Choi
I'm not also having the stability of X, Y, Z, or, like, a partner in finance or, like, independent wealth or whatever.
- [21:18]
Tracy Thomas
You're not married to Bell Burden's ex
- [21:20]
Mary HK Choi
husband, which, you know, like, I could have. It could have been.
- [21:23]
Tracy Thomas
Could have been you.
- [21:24]
Mary HK Choi
I don't know. But, like, I say this to say that, like. And also we have this, like, amazing sort of attention economy thing. This, like, viral pastry or death thing where it's like, you either sell, you know, 150,000 copies and you just live on the New York Times bestseller list, or you have a franchise. So you're like, I'm position one, three, five, and seven. Me, personally.
- [21:48]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right, right.
- [21:48]
Mary HK Choi
And, like, so all of these things are changing the landscape, and it's been really interesting to see. It's also incredibly discouraging. Like, I've had different moments during this sort of tour and this release where I'm like, do I just need, like, $100,000 earmarked to pay all of these people out of pocket in order to make enough noise that people will start to care. Because all of these things are in place that have nothing to do with the book. And so, you know, I think it's this thing of, like. And also. But there is an argument to be made for, like, does it. Does the rising tide raise all ships Boats bad at maritime analogies? And I say that to say that even performative readers like people who love book aesthetic but literally don't fucking read.
- [22:35]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [22:35]
Mary HK Choi
Like, on one hand, it's so easy to, like, slander them or, like, again, like you said, denigrate them or not denigrate them or whatever. But, like, at a certain point, I'm just like, okay, like, this isn't the worst.
- [22:47]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I don't know. I think it remains to be seen, honestly. Like, I feel like were in this shift, and it's hard. I'm, like, trying to gauge things in real time. Like, notice the way that things have changed. And also I'm like. And I'm aging out. Like, I'm getting old. And I feel like the kids are coming in and, like, it's a. They want a different thing. Which, like, makes sense. Yeah, which totally makes sense. But it's hard for me to sort of gauge, like, what is really happening and, like, how does a book take off and, like, what does it mean to be, like, a book of the moment? Because you're right. A lot of people just want to read old stuff, which, honestly, like, if I. When I didn't have this job, I read old stuff. Like, there's lots of good old stuff.
- [23:32]
Mary HK Choi
Oh, yeah, me too. Hella old stuff. Or even, like, just the author that you miss that you kind of, like, let them settle. And you're like, no, I have four of their books. Yum, yum, yum.
- [23:40]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [23:42]
Mary HK Choi
And meanwhile, they're like, pre orders are very important. And you're like, 1987.
- [23:46]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. You're like. And I still, like. I know, like, Percival Everett. I'm like, I'm so still working my way through. Babe, you wrote a book a year for 40 years. Like, can you take a break so that I could read something else? And also, a lot of people only read a few books a year. Yeah, that's the other piece of it.
- [24:00]
Mary HK Choi
And that's, like, kind of okay, too. I mean, like, none of this is a moral issue. No, I think what we're saying here is that, like, I, for some reason, once again, did one. So, like, here we are.
- [24:15]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. And so what. What for you was the biggest. Like, it could be a good or a bad. It could be a hard or an easy. Like, what was the biggest sort of shock of going from YA to adult? What surprised you?
- [24:29]
Mary HK Choi
I think the timeline and the. The way momentum feels like so. And actually, I'm so grateful because I took to, like, Instagram and, like, book threads to be like, what do I need to know? And people very, like, unanimously and graciously were like, here's the thing about, you know, teen books. Like, if you're doing teen books, like, you will get a lot of bulk orders at the. At the front end. Like, so, like, months before your book even comes out, you'll get libraries, you'll get Target, you'll get, like, Walmart all of these accounts that will buy a bunch of books. In the beginning, when you talk about an adult book, it's usually a person's like, you know, it's like kind of like when you're like, do I need almond toe shaped ballet flats? And then you maybe like harvest them in the middle of the night or you don't, or you buy like your fourth jelly bra off TikTok. It's like so much of it is like impulse purchase E. And so like you're either in a point of, point of purchase display at a place and they'll pick you up or they like the way your cover looks and they'll pick you up. But it's very like that sort of discovery isn't sort of time specific. And it certainly doesn't have all these like built in indicators for how well a book is doing or how anticipated it is.
- [25:43]
Tracy Thomas
That makes sense.
- [25:43]
Mary HK Choi
It's like a lot more whim based in a way that like you're. I'm probably not going to see like the sort of momentum of me going out in these streets screaming like my book is coming out until the week of release, if not a few weeks after.
- [25:58]
Tracy Thomas
After. Yeah, that makes so much sense because there isn't like a pre order, I don't know, community in the same way. Yeah, like with like kids books it's like we're gonna get it into these schools. So we order, we're gonna get it into these places and so it happens in a like more timely fashion. Whereas with an adult book it's like relies more on word of mouth vibes. Like just like people going into a bookstore and getting one here and one there.
- [26:23]
Mary HK Choi
And there's so many adult books. Like I mean you have nonfiction and fiction and then you have self help or whatever. But largely it's like any book. So like I'm going up against like romantasy, which as a category it's just like. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a juggernaut. It's like unstoppable. And so like my little book about like, you know, these weird L. A afternoons is going against like sweeping title, like escapism. And that's just what, what the situation is.
- [26:50]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, that's so interesting. Do you worry about your kid readers who are growing up who are still kids reading your book? Because there's lots of sex in this book.
- [26:59]
Mary HK Choi
There's so much sex in this book. But I don't worry about it because they're all old. Like they, they have like come out and been like, oh my God. I read this in high school, but not only am I not in college, I'm like in my early 20s.
- [27:11]
Tracy Thomas
But what about the people who are reading you as kids now? Like, they're gonna be like, oh, this looks nice. It's got like a painted cover. And then it's like, here we go. Like, do you care? I mean, I know the kids are reading about sex. Like, I'm not really worried about it on a puritanical basis, but like, is there any conversation of like, what if a mom comes and yells at you or something?
- [27:28]
Mary HK Choi
I mean, the moms have been coming to yell at me for so long. The entirety of my career. Because I'm not YA either. I've never not sex in every single.
- [27:36]
Tracy Thomas
Right, that's right. That's right.
- [27:38]
Mary HK Choi
And so like, I've read them all.
- [27:40]
Tracy Thomas
You're right. Now that I said that, I'm like, yes. But what stands out in my mind in all of your books though, is the snacks. Thank you for your service. As a people of the snack, I,
- [27:50]
Mary HK Choi
you know, I love snacks deeply. It's like it's like my one most vital and important and like most like compelling calling. It's like I'm always obsessed with snacks. The first thing I do in any place that I go to is go to a grocery store or like a convenience store or a liquor store, deli, any bodega situation. I like to see the snack terrain of every town. And so that is like a terroir that is important to me. And so to have a kind of like sense of space. I think food and the way we graze is hugely important.
- [28:22]
Tracy Thomas
I want to, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call you something. I'm gonna give you a title.
- [28:26]
Mary HK Choi
Okay.
- [28:27]
Tracy Thomas
After reading this book now I've read all four, I'm going to say that you're one of our great maximalist writers. I think this is true. I think this is true about you. I'm going to say right now my two go to maximalists. This is just my, my personal taste. Are you and Kylie Reid.
- [28:47]
Mary HK Choi
Oh, great Company.
- [28:49]
Tracy Thomas
I don't know if you read Come and Get it.
- [28:53]
Mary HK Choi
I have read Come and Get it and I read her first.
- [28:56]
Tracy Thomas
Such a fun age.
- [28:56]
Mary HK Choi
Such a fun age. Read both. Yeah.
- [28:58]
Tracy Thomas
So I feel like in Come and Get it she really flexes her maximalist skills. Like there's so much just like description and like really hyper specific description of like people, objects in your books. It's like food, it's fashion, it's just Like, I don't know, there's a way that you both, like, render people on the page where you really just, like, tell us every single thing we absolutely need to know to get this person, like, very clearly in our brain. Because, you know, some writers will be like, oh, you know, I don't say anything. I'll just be like, oh, he wore Nikes. And it's like, sure, but, like, a lot of people wear Nikes. But you're going to tell me, like, how the Nikes are tied and exactly what model they are. And, like, if there's a little bit of dirt on the toe or if they're pristine, and then I'm like, oh, okay, I know exactly who that man is. And I feel like a lot of people can't do that in a way that's fun. They do it in a way that's either, like, this is a high school writing assignment or they don't do enough. And I feel like you and Kylie are great maximalists. So that's what I think.
- [29:58]
Mary HK Choi
Well, first of all, I know that you only say what you mean, and so that means a lot to me.
- [30:02]
Tracy Thomas
It's very true. I've been texting people about it. I've been like, is Mary one of our great maximalists?
- [30:07]
Mary HK Choi
That's. Well, actually, you know, first of all, I'll just take the. Take the compliment and say that, like, I. That's really meaningful to me because my living, like, wakeful life is basically drinking from a fire hose in terms of, like, how much information everybody gives me at any point. Like. Like, I just. I get that much information from people. Like, I end up just cold reading people based on. Yeah. Their shoes, their hair, the way whether they talk over me or not. Like, how they interact with other people. Like, the break of their pants. Like, you know what. What kind of wash their denim is. Like, what their wallet looks like.
- [30:44]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [30:45]
Mary HK Choi
Like, just all of that is, like, I put it somewhere. And so the fact that I can, like, then deploy it somewhere in a book is like, I think that this is why I'm basically an earthworm. I'm just, like, eating dirt and pooping dirt and just getting all this information and putting it somewhere else. But I appreciate specificity. I love books so much. I don't think books are just IP for movies or TV shows or whatever. I think books themselves, you can do so much with time, and I love that you can just move the eye of the camera or, like, have the paintbrush stroke be so specific in looks. But this is also to say I'm not a lot of people's favorite. Like, some people love this and some people hate this. And I also think that's, like, a huge compliment. Like, you fuck with me if you fuck with me and that's it.
- [31:35]
Tracy Thomas
And I think, like, right now, I mean, one of the first things I noticed about your book because I've been on, like, sort of this new tirade against first person, is that your book is not in first person. And I was like, ugh, a thrill and a joy. But because there's so much first person. And I think the other thing that goes hand in hand with that is a lot of people are writing, like, sparser, which I generally really like. Like, I. If it were up to me, if I was going to have mediocre sparse or mediocre maximalist, I'm going to take mediocre sparse every time. But good maximalist is really cool. Like, it's like a fun thing. And I don't feel like a lot of people are doing it these days.
- [32:10]
Mary HK Choi
Well, thank you so much. But, yeah, I mean, same, same, though. Like, I. I'm jealous of people who can be, like. Who have brevity and elegance. Like, there are people who can closely observe with minimum. Minimum words. I think Katie Kitamura is one of these people. And like. Like, I think that that's, like, there's a precision in that that I really, really enjoy. But. But it's not what I do.
- [32:34]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [32:35]
Mary HK Choi
And it's. It's also not how I see the world. But, you know, I texted you at some point when I sent you this book where I was like, I don't know if you're not. If you're gonna hate this book. Like, what if you hate this book?
- [32:43]
Tracy Thomas
Why did you think I was gonna hate it?
- [32:45]
Mary HK Choi
I think it was just like. I don't know. I think my fear was that you don't suffer fools. And so, like, I wondered if you thought this was, like, indulgent in the. In a way. So the fact that you're, like, you actually nailed the maximalism.
- [32:59]
Tracy Thomas
I do think it's indulgent, but that just reassures me. Not in, like a. Not. I do think it's indulgent. And you're right, it isn't something that I would normally like because I guess we should tell people what the book is about. We're 30 minutes in. I'll tell you guys quickly what the book is about. Basically, it's about this mother and daughter. The mother is a. A, Is a Hollywood actress. She had this, like, Sort of weird, almost like reality movie thing that she did. Experimental thing. It made her very famous. It was like. It was like they were just following her basically in this one room. And there was sex and, like, kind of weird. She has a daughter as a single mother, and then she goes on to be on a sitcom with, like, a husband and a son and the husband who becomes her lover on and off for years. None of this is a spoiler. He dies at the start of the book. And. And it's about the son from the show, the real life daughter and the mom, and they're sort of just like, in la, kind of being, like, icky. They're all kind of icky. Just like. I don't know, it's. It's a little, like, yucky people, which I. Which again, I don't normally like that. I like hot people or bad people, but icky people creeps me out. But. And it's really just like them kind of, like hanging out, kind of like being around each other and jockeying for position and power and sympathy, et cetera, et cetera, and all of those things on paper. I don't think that I, like. I think that's fair.
- [34:23]
Mary HK Choi
Yeah. I mean, the icky people part a ton. I was just like, oh, you're not gonna like any of these characters. However, I think that this book was a challenge to me and a challenge that I really wanted to sort of dive into is that, like, I'm, you
- [34:37]
Tracy Thomas
know, I'm an adult.
- [34:38]
Mary HK Choi
I'm getting older. Like, I know how alloyed we are. I know that my first three thoughts are guaranteed IC and Self serving and, like, really, really self indulgent and selfish and all of these things. And I really wanted people to be ultimately very lovable, but, like, very questionable.
- [34:57]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [34:58]
Mary HK Choi
And, like, they all think that they're doing the right thing. Like, that's the part which I love about. That I love about all people that I have a lot of, like, compassion and just, like, affection for. Is that, like, we all. We're all doing our best. There isn't a single villain who's, like, not genre blind.
- [35:16]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right, right, right, right. Okay, we have to pivot first. We have to take a break, and then we have to pivot to your. To your reading life. So we'll be right back. We're back. I did not prep you for this part, so don't get mad at me. But this is Ask the Stacks, where someone has written an email to Ask the Stacks atthestacks podcast.com. and we're going to give them a book recommendation. Are you ready to yes. Okay. This comes from Emily and they say my husband is interested in reading more and so far audiobooks have been working for him. He really enjoyed the audiobooks for the Murderbot series and project Hail Mary, but he wants to branch out from sci fi. No character driven literary fiction here. The man likes plot. He wants something that's fast paced, has an intriguing premise, maybe some mystery, ideally some humor too. And most importantly on audio, he's been enjoying fiction, but I think the right non fiction could be fun too. What are some audiobooks you'd recommend?
- [36:14]
Mary HK Choi
Oh my God.
- [36:15]
Tracy Thomas
Patrick Radden Keith okay, I couldn't do it, but that's what I wanted to do. I'm so glad you did. I recommended him last month. I recommend him every day. Also, in your newsletter you called him the Litter Nuts boyfriend and I just want to be really clear with everyone. He was my boyfriend first.
- [36:29]
Mary HK Choi
However, how many boyfriends do you have?
- [36:31]
Tracy Thomas
I have at least. Summer is finally here. It is my favorite season. There is so much good stuff happening over here at the Stacks. You all know about the podcast, of course you do. You're listening to it right now. But do you know about the Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter unstacked on Substack? Listening to this show supports the work I do. It goes a super long way, but if you want to go the super Duper is longest, most extra miley way, you should consider supporting us on those platforms. You get perks and it makes it possible for me to make the show. Plus, between now and September 22, any paid member of the Stacks Pack on Patreon or a subscriber to my newsletter gets my non fiction reading Guide. It is 30 nonfiction books that I love. It is exclusive to both of those platforms and you know you want it. Plus it'll be gone come September 22nd, so you've got to join. In addition to getting the nonfiction reading guide on the Patreon, you've got access to our book club meetups, to our private discord. You get a bonus episode, you get the Mega Reading Challenge. And then in the newsletter you can hear me give all of my hot takes on books. Pop Culture Every month I rank every book I read in order from least to most favorite. I'm giving you the inside tea on all of these books. You also get that bonus episode each month. Making this podcast is a collaborative effort and by supporting the Patreon and the Substack, you allow me to make this podcast alongside my incredible team so they can do what they do best. So if you're looking to meet other bookish friends, if you want to hear more content book conversation, join me on Patreon Substack or both. You could join the stacks pack@patreon.com the stacks and you can subscribe to the newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com and both of those links are right there in the episode description. All right, see y' all in the stacks. When I started the Stacks, I learned pretty quickly that having my own business was going to involve a lot more than just reading great books and talking to my favorite authors. There were episodes to schedule, scripts to write, logos to create social media, how to manage. And as you all know, my to do list was endless. I was spending so much time sorting through all of these logistics, it was hard to find time to actually read books. When you're starting your own business, it helps to have a tool that can simplify everything so that you can focus on what actually matters most to you and your business. And that's why I want to introduce you to Shopify. Shopify makes starting your own business feel seamless, with hundreds of ready to use templates to build your brand identity. They've got AI tools to help you write, copy and enhance images. They've got built in marketing tools to create bespoke emails and social media campaigns to reach even more people. And the best part is you can manage all of your tasks in one place, which makes your life easier and your business operate way more efficiently. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names to startups. And you know what? Now might be a perfect time for you to add your business to that list. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com thestacks go to shopify.com thestacks that's shopify.com thestacks
- [39:59]
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- [40:28]
Tracy Thomas
Jason Reynolds Jason Reynolds But I was okay. Nobody was as hot for Patrick Roden Keefe as me in 2021. People knew about him. People were like, say, nothing is great, but I feel like when Empire of Pain came, I really hit the fucking floor running for him. And now everybody's in love with him. Gilbert Cruz at the New York Times on his episode. He sounds like he's like, swooning in the conversation.
- [40:54]
Mary HK Choi
Did I tell you I had dinner with him once?
- [40:56]
Tracy Thomas
Gilbert or Patrick?
- [40:57]
Mary HK Choi
Patrick.
- [40:57]
Tracy Thomas
Well, I met Patrick and I told him, I call you my boyfriend online. And he said, I love that. And I said, I'm so glad to hear that.
- [41:06]
Mary HK Choi
Yeah. I mean, the thing is, it's like, even IRL and, you know, this doesn't happen. And, like, granted, I had a group dinner. It was like a very nice thing. But he is, like, so swoon worthy. He is. Yeah. He's so swaggy and so, like, effortless.
- [41:20]
Tracy Thomas
So effortless. He's a nerd.
- [41:23]
Mary HK Choi
He's just a nerd with a fantastic head of hair.
- [41:27]
Tracy Thomas
Great head of hair. And, you know, he's nasty with the pen. You know that the skill is right there. You know what I mean? It's like, it's just lingering right there. Yes.
- [41:36]
Mary HK Choi
But I think the thing that he does really beautifully. Non creepy wife guy.
- [41:40]
Tracy Thomas
Boom. Non creepy wife. I don't bring up the wife. Okay. Justina. That's her name. No, he seems. He seems overall pretty good. I'm sure he's got, like, at least one fucked up political thing going on that we don't know about. Like, because, like, all white men do. There's like, probably something weird that he's, like, into that's like, oh, no. But for the most part, I haven't found it yet. You know that.
- [42:02]
Mary HK Choi
And also, like, you know, you know, it says a lot that whatever it is, if it ever comes out, like, I think that if that day comes, we'll be like, huh? Rather than yes.
- [42:13]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I think it'll be huh. I think it'll be huh.
- [42:15]
Mary HK Choi
I think it'll be huh. Anyway, so that's who I would recommend. And you can't recommend that, but I think we did a good job.
- [42:23]
Tracy Thomas
That's great. That's the correct answer, Emily. I chose not to do it because I don't like to just only recommend Patrick Radenke for me.
- [42:29]
Mary HK Choi
I speak in affiliate links.
- [42:31]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, exactly. But here's. Here's three that I have for you. So one is anything by S.A. cosby. His fiction. They're like thrillers. They're kind of violent. They're very funny in a dark way. And they're narrated by. I think all of them are narrated by the same guy. And I can't remember who it is, but he's fantastic. So I recommend that.
- [42:52]
Mary HK Choi
Narrator is so key.
- [42:53]
Tracy Thomas
Narrator so key. My. My two nonfiction answers. One is an obvious. This is a 10 out of 10 nonfiction audiobook. It's almost where everybody started with audiobooks. And it's Trevor Noah's Born a Crime. A celebrity memoir on audio is perfection. And you know when they read it out loud and they do other stuff. So if your husband is at all interested in Trevor Nora, or even not at all, because this is like, a really good memoir. But any celebrity he's into, though, sometimes with the men's moirs, they get a little ick. Like, I don't. I'm not recommending, like, Matthew McConaughey. You know what I mean?
- [43:28]
Mary HK Choi
Like, is it the green lights or whatever?
- [43:30]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Like, I don't know that you have to do that, but I do feel like I don't know. A lot of the, like, women's celebrity memoirs are fantastic.
- [43:37]
Mary HK Choi
I will say about the Matthew McConaughey one, if that is your thing, it's so your thing.
- [43:43]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, if that's your. If he's your thing, go for it. But I just. I can't vouch for every male celebrity memoir in the same way that I feel like I can for the women one. And then the last one is a book that I love that I had no idea I was going to like. I started on audio and then was inventing tasks, asks so that I could keep listening to it, which is a better ending by James Whitfield Thompson. In the 1970s, his sister is ruled as a suicide, but the sister was married to a cop, and the cop found the body, and they were like, it's a suicide. And then, like, years later, the author goes back and sort of like, re evaluates and digs into the story of his sister's death. And was it a suicide or was it something more nefarious? And it's just like a really good family memoir kind of story. Like, you're learning about her, you're learning about him. And it's so compelling, like, cannot stop listening to. It's one of. It's one of those books that if I had read it on the page, I probably wouldn't have read it. But on audio, I was like, this is a banger.
- [44:47]
Mary HK Choi
There's so many books on audio that I wouldn't have read on the page.
- [44:50]
Tracy Thomas
But, like, including Strangers by Bell Burden, A Thousand Percent If I had to read that, I would have been like, no, thank you. But hearing her say it, locked in.
- [45:02]
Mary HK Choi
I will also say that, like, I mean, how was that story not sus from Jump? I mean, I guess, like, the cops piece was, like, less sus then or something.
- [45:10]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And I think she had, like. I can't exactly remember the details, but she had had, like, a miscarriage, and so they were like. She's sad.
- [45:16]
Mary HK Choi
Oh, God.
- [45:18]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [45:18]
Mary HK Choi
Yeah.
- [45:19]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, so, Emily, let us know if your husband reads any of our picks how we did. And everyone else, send us book recommendations at. At Ask the Sacks atthestacks podcast.com. okay, Mary, over to you. Two books you love, one book you hate.
- [45:33]
Mary HK Choi
Hate.
- [45:34]
Tracy Thomas
Come on. You knew this was coming.
- [45:36]
Mary HK Choi
I do. You are so vocal.
- [45:39]
Tracy Thomas
Not vocal. That's a nice way of saying it.
- [45:44]
Mary HK Choi
I love. Did you read Rachel Kong's short story collection?
- [45:48]
Tracy Thomas
I didn't. I heard it's great.
- [45:49]
Mary HK Choi
It's enchanting. And actually, it's like. And it's even good if you don't like short stories. And what I mean by that is that, like, each one is so deeply weird and, like, stands alone in such a specific way. And her brain is so. So, like, she's the type of person who, like, loves nature and natural phenomenon and, like, learns about it. So she's like. She's basically, like, the type of person that finds quite a bit to be quite miraculous, but is smart, too. So that's, like, amazing. Do you know Ed Yong?
- [46:24]
Tracy Thomas
I know.
- [46:25]
Mary HK Choi
You know how. Like that, too. Like, so smart and, like, so, like, bowled over, like, kind of that vibe. Okay, so that's something I really love. I just started reading for some reason, like, all of Rufi Thorpe's books. I mean, probably because Margot has Money Troubles came out the show on Apple, and I just read all the books and then ended on Margot. And so all of those were incredible, like, knockout queen, like, girls from Corona del Mar. Like, and reading them all at once was really, really good. And I did the same thing with Melissa Broder. Like, I had never. For some reason, you know, I'm like a, like, dyed in the wool, bulimic person. Like, I'm just like, my thinking is bulimic, even if I'm not purging. Like, I'm always binging somewhere.
- [47:06]
Tracy Thomas
My thinking is bulimic.
- [47:08]
Mary HK Choi
It's just bulimic. It's like. It's like, lots in, lots out.
- [47:12]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
- [47:13]
Mary HK Choi
So I had never read Milk Fed, which blew my mind. Like, just the way she talks about bodies, the Way she talks about feeling. Just the way she talks about, like, obliteration, like. And love and sensuousness, like, all of that. Like, I love so much. And so a book I hated isn't a book I hated. I'm sorry. But I will say I didn't love the adaptation of Life, Vladimir. That's all I'm gonna say. Are you gonna make me pick an actual book?
- [47:42]
Tracy Thomas
An actual book that you hate?
- [47:43]
Mary HK Choi
Fine.
- [47:44]
Tracy Thomas
Nothing will make you more likable to my listeners than you telling us what you hate. This whole bit of. I don't. I can't say it. We don't like that around here. What we want is for you to be like, Holden Caulfield or whatever, you
- [47:57]
Mary HK Choi
know, I will say, fuck the twist in yesteryear.
- [48:03]
Tracy Thomas
I fucking hated that book.
- [48:05]
Mary HK Choi
I just stopped the fuck right there. I was like. I was into it. I was into it. I was like. Like, oh, my God, go off. La, la, la, la, la, la, la. I'm stalled at when the twist happens, and I don't know if I can continue.
- [48:18]
Tracy Thomas
Well, let me just tell you, it actually, and I mean this in the most honest and kind way, gets worse from there. The book gets considerably worse in the last, whatever, 50 pages.
- [48:28]
Mary HK Choi
But I wanna. I like. I love cynicism. I love exactitude. But then, okay, for example, like the. The. The movie that John. We were just talking about this online. He's your friend. He's a comedian. He's an actor.
- [48:40]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, John Early.
- [48:41]
Mary HK Choi
John Early's movie. Right.
- [48:42]
Tracy Thomas
Yes.
- [48:43]
Mary HK Choi
Where it's kind of about like. Like, content creators and, like, going viral. Like, that direction looks incredible, but I
- [48:54]
Tracy Thomas
don't think yesteryear does that.
- [48:56]
Mary HK Choi
And it doesn't. But I'm just saying, like, that kind of exactitude, I'm here for me too.
- [49:01]
Tracy Thomas
And then you have to do that. Right?
- [49:04]
Mary HK Choi
But you've done that, too. I'm good with this twist. I'm stuck. I'm stuck. I'm stuck.
- [49:09]
Tracy Thomas
Well, save yourself. Okay. What are you reading right now?
- [49:14]
Mary HK Choi
I am reading. God, what am I reading? This always feels like, you know what I'm actually reading?
- [49:22]
Tracy Thomas
What?
- [49:22]
Mary HK Choi
Weirdly, I'm reading Milan Kundera. Like, I'd never read the Unbearable Lightness of Being.
- [49:29]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, I've never read that either. I don't think.
- [49:31]
Mary HK Choi
And I was so ready to be annoyed. Like, I think I picked it up. I was like, are you manosphere? Which is kind of largely my question for every. But there is something in the formatting of it and, like, the world building and the way he like jumps from chapter to chapter to talk about something completely unrelated seemingly. Or we'll like almost like do one of these where he's like scrolling in on his.
- [49:54]
Tracy Thomas
Zooming in on the screen.
- [49:55]
Mary HK Choi
Yeah, zooming in on it. Like the definition of something or like a word that he just used to describe something. And I find that kind of like peripatetic non linearity to be really exciting for my brain right now because obviously all I can think about is how to make people like my choices that I made in this book. And so there is something really edifying about reading something that really feels like they don't care.
- [50:23]
Tracy Thomas
Interesting. You're now making me interested in reading it. I do. Like when a book sort of zooms in or it does like a weird thing.
- [50:29]
Mary HK Choi
Yeah, yeah.
- [50:30]
Tracy Thomas
Well, that's what I feel like. Patrick Raden Keefe does so well.
- [50:32]
Mary HK Choi
Totally.
- [50:32]
Tracy Thomas
Like, he just jumps all of a sudden. You're like, Rwanda, 1972. I'm like, weren't we just in London?
- [50:37]
Mary HK Choi
What the. You know what? Fame Sick does this really well.
- [50:41]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, you liked Fame Sick? I feel like I should not read Fame Sick because have it read to you like an audiobook or like a human being. Oh, like. Like find a person on the street. Like, will you please read this aloud to me?
- [50:53]
Mary HK Choi
Not there. Not there. 1.2 speed. Thank you.
- [50:55]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I know if I was gonna read it would definitely be audio. I just. I don't have any feelings about her, and I feel like you have to have some feelings about her to read the book.
- [51:05]
Mary HK Choi
I had no feelings about her.
- [51:06]
Tracy Thomas
Really? None. I never. I've never watched an episode of. That's not true. I watched one episode of Girls. The first one.
- [51:11]
Mary HK Choi
Exactly.
- [51:12]
Tracy Thomas
And I don't care about her and I don't follow her. And I find her to be totally just like, yuck. Not for me. Same.
- [51:21]
Mary HK Choi
However, that's why I was so shocked to be into her. And that's why I wrote a whole newsletter about it. And that's why I was just like, do I need to watch Girls? Because I'd never watched Girls either. I'd watched that first pilot episode and for some reason there's an Asian girl at her office who's like, you know, that classic stereotypical Asian girl who's like, really, really competent. And I was like, fuck this, I'm not watching it. But I don't know, because what Fame Sick does really, really well is it just talks about the. The sort of perversion of being famous and celebrity and, like, what that actually does to your body. I mean, actually, Fame Sick is actually a book about inflammation.
- [51:59]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, okay. You're convincing me. Both you. And then also, I feel like Jay Wortham asked me about it, too. Like, are you gonna read this? And I was like, I don't know. Should I? And I can't remember if they said that I shouldn't or that they hadn't yet, and they wanted to know if I was gonna do it, because, you know, I get a lot of those messages, like, have you done it yet? And then I'm like, no. And then they're like, well, can you do it and tell me.
- [52:20]
Mary HK Choi
I think Jay Wortham is doing it.
- [52:22]
Tracy Thomas
That's what I think, too.
- [52:23]
Mary HK Choi
Yeah. Because I had done it, and I was just like, I have. I have thoughts. And we were texting briefly about it, so.
- [52:28]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, well, now I want to do it so we can be in a group chat about it.
- [52:31]
Mary HK Choi
We'll be in a group chat. We'll be in a group chat. And even if you hate it, I'm so here for you telling me why you hated it.
- [52:36]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, well, obviously, I will. Okay, we should tell people. I mean, people will know by the time they hear this. But in case you missed it, for book club, we're doing perhaps Manosphere, perhaps not the Alchemist.
- [52:50]
Mary HK Choi
I feel like. I feel like Alchemist predates Manosphere. Like, it's kind of like.
- [52:54]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, so let me tell you why we were not. We're not going to talk at all about our thoughts and feelings about the
- [52:58]
Mary HK Choi
book, because that was part of the deal.
- [52:59]
Tracy Thomas
That's part of the deal. But what you all need to know, listeners, is that we picked this book because we want to earnestly read it. We're gonna give it a fair shake. We've both read it in the past. We both didn't like it.
- [53:11]
Mary HK Choi
We both resented it slightly.
- [53:12]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. If I'm remembering correct.
- [53:14]
Mary HK Choi
Yeah.
- [53:15]
Tracy Thomas
But we're going to read it now. And the reason that I want to read it this month, despite all the eye rolls from all of you at home, is that I have this thing that I've been thinking a lot about, about the books that have shaped our current political, cultural climate. And this predates Manosphere. But I think everyone who invented Manosphere read this book, and it changed their life. And I want to know if that is. Is present in the text. No, heal that thing. So that's what I'm kind of reading it with an eye towards. That's all we'll say.
- [53:45]
Mary HK Choi
So you basically want to know if it's, like, giving, like, an rand or whatever.
- [53:49]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, I do. I mean, that's another book like the Fountainhead. I. I did read half of the Turner Diaries this year. I couldn't finish because I thought it was going to be bad. Like, this is so racist. But it was going to be, like, compelling. But it was so bad, I couldn't read this sentences. The racism wasn't that bad. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. N word, whatever. Bye. But it was like. It was like, black people are going to rape women. And I was like, yeah, I know you guys think that. But it was like, the writing. Oh, my God, it was unbearable. I. I had to stop. And I was so excited to read it. So hopefully the Alchemist will be slightly.
- [54:25]
Mary HK Choi
Hopefully it'll be good. I mean, like, we're not. Yeah. We're not trying to, like, rage bait ourselves.
- [54:31]
Tracy Thomas
No, I want to read it and just see. Like, why do so many men in their twenties think this book is so important?
- [54:36]
Mary HK Choi
I mean, I hope it. I hope it's, like, inspiring to me. Like, I hope so, too.
- [54:39]
Tracy Thomas
I sort of hope that I could become an alchemist person.
- [54:41]
Mary HK Choi
Me, too.
- [54:42]
Tracy Thomas
I'm like, I need a quest. So that's what we're reading for book club this month, in case you missed the announcement. All right, here's what I want to know about you. How. What's your ideal reading setup, location, time of day, snacks and beverages, temperature, accoutrement, accessories.
- [54:58]
Mary HK Choi
So I have a really, like, pathetically laughable situation, which is that I have two couches in my house. One is not good for reading, basically doesn't have any arms.
- [55:10]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [55:11]
Mary HK Choi
The other one is really uncomfortable. But there's one part of it that's perfect for reading. So there's a corner piece in my, like, sectional situation that's like a little baseball mitt. Your butt goes right in the middle, and it's incredible. And it has, like, a very, very small footstool that. That becomes a coffee table. That is my ideal situation. I have put a sconce there because I do not like overhead lighting. So we have, like, a warm Scandinavian sconce in the corner. That is my ideal place. I don't love to. I love to read in Twilight, if not, like, golden hour. There's something so indulgent about being like, it's light outside, and for some reason, I'm eating. I like minimum two beverages, usually three or four.
- [55:58]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. And what are they?
- [56:00]
Mary HK Choi
Several temperatures. So I have water at room temp, large jar, like, Mason jar.
- [56:05]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [56:05]
Mary HK Choi
Then I have a soda, like some sort of carbonated Effervescent situation with ice cubes, smaller jar.
- [56:13]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [56:14]
Mary HK Choi
And then I like to have a large mug. Nothing I despise more than like a, a an like an ornamental tiny mug. I want a large mug of tea. You have good mugs. We've talked about this.
- [56:25]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, oh yes.
- [56:26]
Mary HK Choi
And we have specific tastes and teas. So this is a non caffeinated tisane family type tea. And then not strictly a drink, but I think qualifies. I will make a frappe.
- [56:41]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, with like the coffee. Like, like in Greece, like a decaf
- [56:45]
Mary HK Choi
stuff frappe with almond milk and sugar free vanilla syrup. I'm a monster in a ninja creamy. So that gets a special long spoon, all of these. And then another snack. Crunchy, salty. Another snack beyond that. Sweet, usually chewy.
- [57:05]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, and this is what I need people to know right now. If you come on this podcast and you have an answer about snacks and beverages that is less than what you just heard. Think again, people. This is what this question was written for and this is why we are friends.
- [57:21]
Mary HK Choi
If you don't have like multiple vessels to put different formats of snacks like this.
- [57:28]
Tracy Thomas
My everyday walk around the house bug must have a ton of ice in it.
- [57:32]
Mary HK Choi
Ton of ice. Ton of ice.
- [57:33]
Tracy Thomas
Ton of ice. When I drink out of just a glass, not a drop of ice in it. Not a piece of ice. Must be just cold from the fridge. Not room temp, just cold from the fridge.
- [57:42]
Mary HK Choi
Ye.
- [57:43]
Tracy Thomas
I do not like ice without a straw. I do not want it coming. When I'm, it's like, I'm like, get this out of here.
- [57:50]
Mary HK Choi
Also. Then it's flashback, the whole thing.
- [57:52]
Tracy Thomas
The whole thing. But people who are just like, oh, like what's your snack and beverage? And they're like, coffee. Like, how do you take it? How big is the cup? Do you want it warm? Do you want it cold? Do you want it piping hot? Will you get up and reheat it? Like, what is happening? Who's making the coffee? Are you buying the coffee? Do you have a coffee maker? Do you have a fancy espresso maker that your partner just got because you guys went to Italy a year ago? Like, I need details. Totally sick of the general shit. Give me your drinks and snacks, people.
- [58:24]
Mary HK Choi
You know why I think everything else is AI?
- [58:28]
Tracy Thomas
Every guest I've ever had on the show is AI.
- [58:32]
Mary HK Choi
No, just because, like, we have very specific needs.
- [58:35]
Tracy Thomas
This is why I want to hear all these details.
- [58:37]
Mary HK Choi
Yeah, yeah. Like this is. But like, like you can say any answer to any question and it will be legible. And it will be plausible. However, tell me who you are. Like, that snack question is basically the equivalent of, like, what am I looking at? Versus, you know that thing of in, like, books where, like, the protagonist walks across a mirror and, like, describes what they see. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah.
- [59:00]
Tracy Thomas
No, thanks.
- [59:01]
Mary HK Choi
How do people treat you?
- [59:02]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I'm so glad. I'm just so glad that you've given me an answer I can hold on to, because I. I've been starting to get tired of the question. I'm going to be honest. I've started to get bored with the answers people are just giving me. Like, oh, popcorn. I'm like, okay. Like, oh, my God. Are you microwaving it? Are you making it yourself? Like, what popcorn? This is your dream reading situation. It can't just be chips. Do you know me? Chips?
- [59:23]
Mary HK Choi
There are totally. I mean, popcorn to me, then is for me. Microwave plus popcorn seasoning. Dill flavored.
- [59:32]
Tracy Thomas
Ooh, yuck. I hate dill.
- [59:33]
Mary HK Choi
Love dill. And then, like. And then Maggi sauce.
- [59:38]
Tracy Thomas
What's Maggi sauce?
- [59:39]
Mary HK Choi
It is a European. It's like soy sauce, but it's, like a flavoring, and it's, like, a lot more going on. And sometimes even on top of that, I will throw on some fucking. What's it called? The vegans fuck with it. Nutritional yeast.
- [59:56]
Tracy Thomas
Nutritional yeast. I love this. Okay, we have to come off snacks, but not forever. What's the last book you purchased?
- [60:06]
Mary HK Choi
The last book I purchased was the paperback edition of my friend Kevin Wen's My Documents, because I was a conversation partner with him, and I always love to support the thing. Just because you're going doesn't mean you can't buy the thing.
- [60:19]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the last book that made you laugh?
- [60:23]
Mary HK Choi
This isn't the last book that made me laugh, but it's the book that immediately popped into my brain when you asked that question, which is Tony Tulutha Moody's rejection.
- [60:32]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. What's the last book that made you cry?
- [60:34]
Mary HK Choi
Heart the Lover. Lily King.
- [60:37]
Tracy Thomas
What's the last book that made you angry?
- [60:39]
Mary HK Choi
Probably Strangers, Bell Burden.
- [60:41]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, what's last?
- [60:42]
Mary HK Choi
Also Yesteryear Rage.
- [60:44]
Tracy Thomas
What's the last book that made you feel like you learned a lot?
- [60:47]
Mary HK Choi
Like, was tricked into learning a lot? Probably like, London Falling.
- [60:51]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, yeah. Damn it, Patrick. Stop making us learn things. What's a book that you feel proud that you've read?
- [60:59]
Mary HK Choi
I did read Anna Karenina. But, like, here's the thing. Normalize reading an entire book and not remembering about it, because that's Me.
- [61:06]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. What's a book that you're sort of embarrassed that you still haven't read yet?
- [61:11]
Mary HK Choi
I still haven't read Wuthering Heights.
- [61:13]
Tracy Thomas
Me neither.
- [61:14]
Mary HK Choi
And I still haven't read the. I still haven't seen the movie either.
- [61:17]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, either.
- [61:18]
Mary HK Choi
Should we watch it together? I know you don't want to. You're skipping it. I don't entirely.
- [61:23]
Tracy Thomas
I have so little watching time in my life. And, you know, I love sports, and so if I'm watching, I'm doing sports.
- [61:31]
Mary HK Choi
Sports is so time consuming. If you just cut out sports, you'd have so much more life.
- [61:35]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, maybe, but then I wouldn't have the same level of joy that I have. My hottest take is that the greatest narratives in the world are sports narratives. Are sports. Watching sports better than any book I've ever read? Better than any movie, any TV show.
- [61:49]
Mary HK Choi
So often I will still watch a sports documentary because I just get tricked into being like, the stakes are really clear. They're even. Like, they're wearing platforms.
- [61:57]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. There. There's teams, there's stakes. There's a clock. It's like in fiction, you have to, like, create a clock, like, to give it. It's like, no, babe, the stakes are there. The clock is right the there. Like, even in baseball, there's no clock, but you got two outs and you only have one left. Like, come on. It's drama. Yeah.
- [62:15]
Mary HK Choi
Do you watch all the sports?
- [62:17]
Tracy Thomas
Baseball, basketball, American football? Not as much as I used to. The soccer? Some. Not the hockey. Tennis. Yes.
- [62:28]
Mary HK Choi
I love that you made it domestic. You're like the American footballs. Not so much.
- [62:33]
Tracy Thomas
Not so much.
- [62:34]
Mary HK Choi
Not so much.
- [62:34]
Tracy Thomas
Not so much with the American footballs. Is there a book that you love that you think people would be surprised to know that you, Mary HK Choi, love it.
- [62:44]
Mary HK Choi
This is like trying to think of a joke off top. And also I should totally be prepared. Like, I knew I was talking to you.
- [62:50]
Tracy Thomas
Like, I don't always ask this one.
- [62:53]
Mary HK Choi
I like a lot of, like, really basic books.
- [62:56]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [62:56]
Mary HK Choi
That's like. I would read any book that's, like, in an airport, pretty much. And happily.
- [63:01]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I like. I like. I like an airport book at the right time.
- [63:09]
Mary HK Choi
I don't always love the dad spionage books. I will say that there's a certain
- [63:15]
Tracy Thomas
kind of COVID that I dislike.
- [63:18]
Mary HK Choi
Well, because those feel like jingoism. Like anything that feels too American.
- [63:21]
Tracy Thomas
I'm not. Yeah.
- [63:23]
Mary HK Choi
Oh, I. I haven't read this book, but I would. I really want to read the Viola Davis James Patterson book.
- [63:29]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, I don't really want to read that.
- [63:32]
Mary HK Choi
Is it viola?
- [63:33]
Tracy Thomas
I think it's viola.
- [63:34]
Mary HK Choi
It is. Viola made her an instrument.
- [63:36]
Tracy Thomas
It's fine. Her body is an instrument because she's an actor. Okay, I have two more questions for you. Who would you want to write? Oh, wait, no, I have three more. Sorry. One is, who would you want to write the book of your life? Like, your life story?
- [63:53]
Mary HK Choi
I'm not even kidding. But, like, no one.
- [63:55]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [63:56]
Mary HK Choi
Like, get out of there. What do you do? Like, who.
- [63:58]
Tracy Thomas
Whom.
- [63:59]
Mary HK Choi
Who goes there?
- [64:00]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Okay, that's fair. If you were a high school teacher, what's the book you would assign to your students?
- [64:06]
Mary HK Choi
Like, am I an in. Like, am I a creative writing English teacher?
- [64:09]
Tracy Thomas
Whatever you can do. Whatever kind of teacher you want.
- [64:11]
Mary HK Choi
I don't know. This is just on my brain. Lily King, Father of the rain.
- [64:16]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, okay.
- [64:17]
Mary HK Choi
Yeah.
- [64:17]
Tracy Thomas
I never read her last one. Stole it from the New York Times.
- [64:21]
Mary HK Choi
Right.
- [64:22]
Tracy Thomas
If you could require the current president of the United States of America to read one book, what would it be?
- [64:27]
Mary HK Choi
Oh, my God. The current president.
- [64:29]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, the current one.
- [64:32]
Mary HK Choi
I don't think I am ever naive enough to believe that the most compelling book that could potentially act as some kind of propaganda or reality check about. Because any book that I even recommend about Molly Crabapple's book or whatever about Palestine and Israel, it's not going to change anything. No, that. That question is strangely, very disappointing. I mean, very depressing. Like, I don't think I resent the question.
- [65:04]
Tracy Thomas
Now, unfortunately, every episode of the show where we, like, whoever does book club with me, I have asked this question to.
- [65:12]
Mary HK Choi
And what if other people, like, said
- [65:14]
Tracy Thomas
that first term, Trump was different. There was a different energy about what kind of person he was or could have been.
- [65:21]
Mary HK Choi
Like, people actually tried to make entreaties, right?
- [65:24]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And then, like, I remember being so, so excited when Biden came to office. I was like, we might get, like, better answers. And then they were fine. But, like, definitely more interesting because people believe that Joe Biden could read a book. Like, fundamentally. A lot of times whenever I ask a question with Trump, it's like, can he even read? And I'm like, well, we just have to assume that he can. But it is. It's sort of. The question has sort of started. I, like, started to hate the question because everybody's just like, this sucks. And it does suck. But I'm also like, well, we do this every episode. I want everyone on record for this sort of like a time capsule of the moment. But, you know, Some people do. Like, oh, the places you'll go by Dr. Seuss or whatever.
- [66:05]
Mary HK Choi
Well, there's this book. It's called We Found a Hat, and it's by John Klassen. It's a children's book, so I do think he's capable of reading it, which I think is really important. But it's basically about what happens when there are finite resources or there are resources that are fewer than the number of you, and what happens and how you can find peace and solidarity within
- [66:30]
Tracy Thomas
that with a hat. I love this, everybody. This has been a wonderful conversation with Mary HK Choi, queen of the snack, woman of my heart. Her new book, Pool House, is out on June 9th. This episode is coming out on June 3rd, which means you have time to pre order or make a plan to go to your local independent bookstore on Tuesday, June 9, to get the book. Book. You have six days. It will be out then. I feel like you should make that plan with yourself and all of your friends and neighbors totally.
- [67:04]
Mary HK Choi
Because as we all know, pre orders are really important. And every single book that is sold between whenever and the. The first week counts towards that first week, and that makes a huge difference.
- [67:16]
Tracy Thomas
So it does. So you all could get a jump. You could make a huge difference in Mary's life. And also you can make huge difference in this podcast because if we affirm Mary and her love of snacks, we will hopefully get more authors who take this question seriously. Stop around with my time, okay? And then Mary will be back on June 24th for our discussion of the Alchemist, which I cannot wait for.
- [67:41]
Mary HK Choi
Yes.
- [67:42]
Tracy Thomas
Mary, I love you. Thank you so much for doing this. You are absolutely the best human ever.
- [67:46]
Mary HK Choi
I love you, too. I'm so, so happy that we got to do this. And I hope to see you in la. When I'm in la, I'm gonna come
- [67:53]
Tracy Thomas
and I'm gonna see. We've got more to talk about after we hang up on these people.
- [67:55]
Mary HK Choi
Okay, perfect.
- [67:56]
Tracy Thomas
Sorry, people. Bye. We'll see you on the stacks. All right, y', all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Mary HK Choi for joining the show. And a special thank you to Kat Keeney for your assistance in making this episode possible. Our book club pick for June is the Alchemist by Paolo Coelho, and we'll discuss the book with Mary H. K choy on Wednesday, June 24. If you love the stacks, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks and join the stacks pack and you can check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com Please do me a favor right now, look at your phone. Make sure that wherever you're listening to this podcast, you are subscribed to the show on that platform. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, just take this moment right now while you're looking at your phone to leave us a rating and a review. It helps people to know know what they're going to get when they listen to this podcast. So go ahead, give me those five stars. Tell people why you love it. For more from the Stacks, you can follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and now we are on YouTube and you can check out our website@thestackspodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Sheree Marquez and our theme music is from Tagirgis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.
- [69:23]
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