Ep. 428 A Life in Baseball with Dusty Baker

Summary

The Stacks Ep. 428: A Life in Baseball with Dusty Baker

Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Dusty Baker
Date: June 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this special episode, Traci Thomas is joined by legendary MLB player and manager Dusty Baker to discuss his new memoir, Crossroads: A Memoir in Baseball and Life. The conversation covers Baker’s decades-long career, the lessons learned on and off the field, leadership, winning and losing, racial dynamics in baseball, and insights into his personal values, quirks, and routines. Family and personal connections add warmth and humor, making it a heartfelt and insightful episode for both baseball fans and newcomers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Book and Its Purpose

• [04:00] Dusty describes Crossroads as an account of "the ups and downs and turns and decisions that had to be made along the way," spanning his childhood through 75 years of life. The goal: "to try to help people."
• The memoir includes stories of key friendships and the enduring bonds formed through baseball ("After a while, we don’t have a color to each other... it’s great to have friends like that because they will keep me in check as well." — Dusty Baker, [05:06]).

2. The Value of Friendship and Nicknames

• Dusty recalls the importance of lifelong friendships and how nicknames (his was always "Dusty") tied their community together ([06:50], [07:25]).
• The origin of his full name is discussed ("Is it Beauregard? Is it Barney?... No, it’s just B. It doesn’t stand for nothing." — Dusty Baker, [06:09]).

3. Baseball Management and Leadership Philosophy

• What Does a Manager Do?
  • Rather than dictate, Dusty sees himself as the "leader of the band" ([09:18]):
    "My job is to let them play and me direct them in the right direction…you let guys do their thing, you let them play." — Dusty Baker, [10:35]
• Sensing Players’ Needs:
  • Dusty highlights learning from coaches who paid attention to players’ off-the-field struggles and stresses the importance of trust and confidentiality ([11:43]):
    "If somebody divulges their deepest, darkest secrets to you, you cannot tell anybody... You have to take it to your grave." — Dusty Baker, [13:10]
• Knowing When to Step In:
  • "The hardest part is knowing when not to step in..." — Dusty Baker, [14:07]
  • He draws wisdom from being the eldest sibling, military experience, and often being "different or ahead of schedule" ([14:17], [15:17]).
• Signature Traits as a Leader:
  • Dusty credits others for recognizing his leadership potential and stresses staying ready for unexpected opportunities:
    "You never know who’s watching you. And the person that’s watching you could be the guy that’s going to give you a break in life." — Dusty Baker, [16:58]
    Anecdote: The literal "tap on the shoulder" from Giants’ owner Bob Lurie convinces him to accept his first manager job ([18:44]).

4. Competing, Winning, and Losing

• The Weight of Losses:
  • Dusty discusses the emotional toll of losing:
    "The wins are never as good as the losses are bad." — Traci Thomas recalls Dusty saying ([20:12]), prompting a deep dive into his persistent drive.
  • Losses "wake me up at night sometimes for weeks" ([21:08]); negative motivation from his father played a role in his relentless pursuit of success.
  • Parenting and generational influences on competitiveness generate an honest, lively exchange ([23:09]-[24:57]).
• The Long Wait for a Managerial World Series Win:
  • Dusty reflects on coming to terms with potentially never winning as a manager and the bittersweet feeling of being passed over ([25:40]):
    "Rarely as a manager, I wasn’t fired. I just wasn’t rehired, which is almost the same thing."
  • His ultimate triumph with the Astros was "as good a run as I...I mean, if we’d have won two more games...[could have] went to World Series four years in a row." ([28:01])

5. Retirement and Lifelong Learning

• Continued Involvement Post-Field Retirement:
  • Dusty discusses stepping back from field managing but staying active to avoid the psychological decline he’s seen in others ([29:32]–[31:27]):
    "You have to do something to keep your mind sharp...I try not to, you know, memorize telephone numbers, you know, do whatever I can to stay sharp."

6. Beyond Baseball: Curiosity & Personal Quirks

• Wide Interests:
  • Reading, music, nature, and everyday curiosity help Dusty stay inquisitive and youthful ([37:18]).
• Technology Challenges:
  • The podcast features a hilarious riff on Dusty's struggles with technology: "Melissa prints out my emails because I like printed stuff...I make a list on what I’m going to do every day in the morning." — Dusty Baker, [39:01]
  • He jokes about nearly throwing his phone into an Alaskan river ([39:16]–[40:03]).
  • He still uses a landline: "I want to get to sleep...I have a landline in case there’s an emergency." — Dusty Baker, [43:39]
• Texting Quirk:
  • Dusty signs his texts "Dusty," even when the recipient already knows ([42:34]).

7. Media, Race, and Social Issues in Baseball

• Speaking Out vs. Fatigue:
  • Dusty addresses the frustration of repeatedly raising the same issues about representation:
    "I was not the only qualified black man to take a job as a manager, but it just seems like there’s a quota of two." — Dusty Baker, [46:47]
  • He discusses making peace with the limits of his influence ([45:20]–[47:16]).
• The Decline of Black Players in MLB:
  • Dusty acknowledges initiatives to increase Black participation, the role of economic barriers, and the loss of cultural heroes in the sport ([47:28], [49:43]):
    "A lot of the kids don’t have the heroes that we had then…once they start talking about how much money some of these guys are making…hopefully we’ll see more and more."
  • They reminisce about the greater Black representation of earlier eras and hope for change ([50:21]–[51:29]).

8. Baseball’s Changing Rules

• Mixed Feelings:
  Dusty is not fond of extra-innings runner or the pitch clock, noting he wasn’t consulted on most new rules ([52:50]–[53:53]):
  "Nobody...my opinion wasn’t asked on any of this…it’s too late, Tracy. We got to find a way to play within these rules, whether you like them or not." — Dusty Baker, [54:05]

9. Memorable Stories and Influences

• Pete Rose Wisdom:
  • "You have to use baseball as a sanctuary away from your problems. Because when the game's over... your same problems...are going to be there when you get home." — Pete Rose recounted by Dusty Baker, [56:00]
• Lessons from Hank Aaron:
  • "Retain it. And…if you can call it up when you need it…you’ll know what to do in that situation." ([57:00])

10. Dusty’s Book-Writing Process

• Routine:
  • "I listen to music all the time…no, I didn’t do much of the writing. I did a lot of dictating. Steve did most of the writing because I have arthritis in my hands." — Dusty Baker, [58:08]
  • Proofreading was the hardest, and picture limits were challenging given his family’s rich archival history ([59:11]).
• Snacks:
  • "During the game, I eat fruit…keeps my sugar level up, keeps me sharp…my weakness is cookies, like oatmeal raisin, kind of soft." — Dusty Baker, [60:15]
• Favorite Unspellable Word:
  • “Perseverance.” — Dusty Baker, [62:08]
• Reader Wish:
  • If anyone could read his book: "Marcus Garvey." ([62:21])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Opportunity:
  “If you’re going to ask for something, then you better accept what you asked for.” — Dusty Baker, on being tapped for manager job ([19:24])
• On Leadership:
  “My job is to let them play and me direct them in the right direction.” — Dusty Baker, [10:35]
• On Technology:
  “Someday, if you hear about me throwing this phone in the water... you don’t know how many people want to do the same thing.” — Dusty Baker, [40:03]
• On Race in Baseball:
  “It just seems like there’s a quota of two.” — Dusty Baker, [46:47]
• On Handling Losses:
  “The wins are never as good as the losses are bad.” — Traci Thomas quotes Dusty Baker, [20:12]
• On Family Connection:
  Lighthearted teasing between Traci, her brother, and Dusty infuses the episode with warmth and authenticity throughout.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Dusty’s Book in a Nutshell: [04:00]
• How Friendship Shaped Dusty’s Life: [05:06]
• Nickname Backstories: [06:09]–[07:25]
• Signature Managing Style: [09:18]–[10:53]
• Emotional Side of Managing: [11:43]–[13:10]
• Landing His First Manager Job: [18:44]
• Winning, Losing, and Motivation: [20:12]–[24:57]
• Parenting, Competition, and Generational Lessons: [24:16]
• Accepting Near-Misses and Ultimate Wins: [25:40]–[29:20]
• Retirement, Staying Sharp, and Mental Health: [29:32]–[31:27]
• Beyond Baseball – Dusty’s Interests & Tech Quirks: [37:18]–[43:46]
• Race, Media, and Speaking Out: [45:20]–[47:16]
• State of Black Players in MLB: [47:28]–[51:29]
• Feelings on New MLB Rules: [52:50]–[54:05]
• Advice from Pete Rose & Hank Aaron: [54:34]–[57:34]
• Dusty on Book-Writing & Snacks: [58:00]–[61:59]
• Who He’d Want to Read His Book: [62:21]

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Final Thoughts

This episode isn’t just a chronicle of baseball history; it’s an exploration of the personal philosophy and hard-won wisdom of one of the game’s greats. Through anecdotes, humor, and candor, Dusty Baker shares lessons on leadership, perseverance, friendship, and identity—making the conversation resonate far beyond the ballpark.

Transcript

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[Dusty Baker]

I say what I mean and you know, a lot of times it's gotten me into trouble, but at the same time I was speaking out about the same things over and over and over and over. And see, to me that's, that's, that's a waste of, of my time, especially if no one's listening and, and it gets frustrating. I was not the only qualified black man to take a job as a manager, but it just seems like there's a quota of two. Yeah, you hope that what you have done in your life will help others, but it doesn't appear as such.

[Tracy Thomas (Host)]

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas and today we are joined by legendary Major League Baseball player and manager Johnny b. Dusty Baker Jr. To talk about his new memoir, Crossroads A Memoir in Baseball and Life. In this book, Dusty reflects on his extraordinary life and baseball career while sharing the hard earned wisdom and lessons he's learned along the way. In today's episode, which is so very special to me, I get to talk with Dusty Baker about his decades long career in baseball, the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat, and what has made him one of the greatest coaches in baseball history. Our book club pick for June is the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho and we'll discuss this book with Mary HK Choi on Wednesday, June 24. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show Notes. And if you like this podcast and want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on Substack. Each place offers different perks. You can find community conversations and virtual book clubs on Patreon and my writing and hot takes on the latest literary and pop culture news are over on Substack. Plus, your support makes it possible for me to make the Stacks every single week. To join us, go to patreon.com the stacks for the stacks pack and Tracy thomas.substack.com for my newsletter. All right, now it is time for my conversation with Dusty Baker.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

I'm so excited.

[Dusty Baker]

So silly.

[Tracy Thomas]

All right everybody, we are here. This is maybe the most special episode of the Stacks we've ever done. I am joined today by. Well, he's probably like the greatest person to ever be in baseball.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

According to me, he is my uncle,

[Tracy Thomas]

Dusty Baker, Manager, World Series winning manager, World Series winning player all around baseball guy. They call you Forrest Gump of baseball, which I think is true.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Dusty, welcome to the stacks.

[Dusty Baker]

Hey, Tracy, I am so proud of you. Now, now, I met you when you were like 2 years old or 3 years old or something like that, probably.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

You knew my dad before I was born.

[Dusty Baker]

Yes, I. Well, I guess I did, yeah. So as long as you've been alive, what you're doing. Thank you. I mean, it's a pleasure and honor for me to do this with you.

[Tracy Thomas]

An honor for you, please. Yeah, it's an honor for me. Well, when I first asked you, you

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

were like, you know, I don't really do podcasts. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I'm getting a no from Dusty. This is a pretty. This is a pretty harsh no.

[Dusty Baker]

But we're doing it, though.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

We're doing it. We're doing it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, so this is where we always start. Tell People in about 30 seconds what your book is about.

[Dusty Baker]

It's about my life, and it's about the ups and downs and turns and decisions that had to be made along the way. And it goes from, you know, my childhood all the way up to where I am now. We wrote the book two years ago, so it cut off at 75. And, you know, it's just about me to probably, you know, to try to help people, you know, that's. That's what. What, you know, was intended to be.

[Tracy Thomas]

And, yeah, I got to tell you, I love the book so much. And I'm not just saying that because I know you, but. But one of the things I love the most about the book, and I

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

called Brady my brother when I was maybe like a quarter of the way

[Tracy Thomas]

through, and I said, oh, my God, it's so good, because there's so many people that we have met over the years who are Dusty's friends, who are like, fancy people, like Ralph Garr Jr.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah, but see, he's my godson. I held him the day he was born, too, so.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. But, like, hearing the backstory of all these people and how they fit into your life was really special for me.

[Dusty Baker]

Well, thank you. Well, you know, some of the key is that, you know, we're still friends. You know, I mean, we were friends from the beginning. You know, we've had some ups and downs and Fights, like all friends do, you know, from. From playing marbles to baseball to. To life to girls, to, you know, all kind of things. But, you know, we remain friends after all these years. You know, some white, some black, some Mexican, some, you know, and after a while, we don't have a color to each other. You know, he's just Kenny or he's just Dennis, or he's just Ralph. And, you know, it's great to have friends like that because, see, one thing about it is I can't. I can't BS them, especially if I'm in the public somewhere, because they will. They will tell on me. No, that ain't how it happened. Let me tell you the real truth. And so, you know, it's great to have those guys in my life that, you know, that keeps me in check as well.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Wait. I have a question I've never asked you before.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

What is the B in Johnny B. Baker?

[Tracy Thomas]

Is it just the letter?

[Dusty Baker]

Yes, just the letter. Everybody asked me that. They try to give me a name. People like, oh, is it Beauregard? Is it Barney? Is it. Is it Benny? I'm like, no, it's just B. And see, my dad's from Florida. And in the south, you know, there are people that. Their names are J.C. you know, J.C. martin or J.C. whatever it is. And people like, what does it stand for? Doesn't stand for nothing. You know, just, you know, like Johnny B. Goode. And, you know, I'm Johnny B. Baker Jr.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. I just. As I was reading the book, I was like, I've never asked that question. I knew that that was your name, but I was like, maybe it stands for something.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

I never.

[Dusty Baker]

But you know something? They have never called me anything other than Dusty in my family by any of my relatives. You know, my dad is Big John. My dad Johnny B. The only people that. That. That call me Johnny were guys that I went to high school with. I mean, I'm sorry, elementary school with. Because in elementary school, they wouldn't call you by your nickname. And. And in Riverside, we all had a nickname. You know, we had Buddhists, we had Beasts, we had Roach, we had Chile. We had. Everybody had a nickname. My nickname was Dusty.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, well, you know, my dad, obviously,

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

he was a nickname guy.

[Tracy Thomas]

Chico.

[Dusty Baker]

Oh, yeah. Chico.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. So you knew everybody who knew my dad from before high school because they still called him Leroy or Junior, because he was a junior too.

[Dusty Baker]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wait, how did you meet my dad?

[Dusty Baker]

I met your dad through Billy north, and Billy north was my teammate. No, actually, me and Billy north met in 1969 at Arizona State, and he was with the Cubs and I was with the Braves. We were going out with the same girl and we didn't know it.

[Tracy Thomas]

How scandalous.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah, that's how me and Billy met and we became partners. We put the girl down, you know, it's like, nah, man, she ain't no good. And so we became partners and then we became teammates with the Dodgers. And then I met your dad, you know, through Billy North. Every time I go to, you know, to Oakland to see Billy.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's so funny. I know. I never. There's so many questions as I was reading the book that I was like, I've never thought to ask about that, you know, because, you know, someone as like an elder in your family and

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

it's like, I just, you know, though, I do always ask you all my baseball questions, and I do have some of those for you. But before I turn to.

[Tracy Thomas]

Before we get to that, though. Well, actually, I. This is a question I've asked you 100 million times, but I want you to tell people who are listening to my show because obviously I have a book show, so everybody might not be a baseball person. And I've heard people ask me this before, which is like, when you're a manager of a baseball team and your professional players have been playing baseball their whole life, what is it that the manager is doing day to day? What is your actual job? Because you're not telling them how to hold the bat or like, you know, get the out first base. They know that. They're adults, they're professionals. So what, what does it mean to be a baseball manager?

[Dusty Baker]

Well, to be a manager, you, you know, you're running the team, but without running it in a dictator type, you know, situation or feeling. You know, you run in every department with this pitch and hit and field and base running. But you have to let people do their jobs. You have to let people, you know, you can't micromanage everything, but you have to know a little bit, you know, about every facet of the game. Granted, we, you know, we all have, like, specialties. You know, mine, mine was more hitting, outfield play. You know, I didn't know much about infield play. I didn't know much about catching. But I've asked a lot of questions from people that I played with. I was, I was very inquisitive, you know, as a manager. You know, the whole thing is to let them play. I was listening to Miles Davis years ago on a, you know, he had a interview and he said he's the. The maestro of the. Of the band. He. That's everybody. He had Billy Cobham, he had Herbie Hancock and all these famous guys playing in the. With him in Montrose, and he would let them have their solo, but when he wanted to come in, he would, like, hit his horn, boom, boom, couple times. Boom, boom. And that means, wrap it up. I'm about to come in. And I always thought about that as a, you know, as a manager kind of. You let guys do their thing, you let them play. But, you know, I'm. I'm. I'm the leader of the band and the orchestra. My job is to let them play and me direct them in the right direction.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. And I feel like something that I've learned from you over the years is that the other thing is that you're really good about sensing what's going on with your players internally, like, whether, like, someone needs a day off or someone needs, you know, to go. Go home for an extra night or, like, take a break or whatever that looks like. And so I'm wondering, like, what is it. What is it that you pick up on in those moments? Because I know all your players who have played for you, they loved you over the years. Like, you are one of the most. They did that piece on you. Was it in the Athletic, where it

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

was like, everyone was talking about how great you were, and it was just like every player in the history of baseball.

[Dusty Baker]

Not everybody, though. You know, I'm not doing my job.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Who wasn't in there, who didn't say nice things,

[Tracy Thomas]

but, like, do what. What is that part of it, like, for you? How are you sensing, like, the personal vibes?

[Dusty Baker]

Well, you know something, I learned that from. From coaches in the past, and I've learned from coaches and managers how to be, which is important, and how not to be. And I learned from my high school coach. I remember I was missing layups, and my mom and dad had just separated, and then he asked me, what's wrong? I was missing layups and free throws, and I said, nothing. And he said, no, something's wrong. And so I broke down and talked to him about it. And then one time when I was with the Dodgers, Jim Gilliam said something was wrong at home, and. And he says, you want to talk about it? And of course I said, no. And then later I broke down and said, hey, man. And so therefore, I've been able to use my experiences in my job to tell personality differences. I mean, if a person's talking a lot and he doesn't talk hardly. Well, what's wrong? Or if a person doesn't talk and all of a sudden he's talking, I'm like, hey, something's wrong. Or you can just see mood changes and attitudes and, you know, people are looking for somebody to talk to, especially when they're having problems. But they, the hardest thing is to trust somebody. And if somebody divulges their deepest, darkest secrets to you, you cannot tell anybody unless it's life and death or a situation that is going to be a police matter. You know, you have to take it to your grave and people really appreciate. You know, the fact is everybody's like, you know, most people like to gossip or they say, you know, it's true. Oh yeah, they're saying, you know, I hate gossip, but what else am I supposed to do with it? Well, what you're supposed to do with it is eat it. And so, you know, these are just some lessons that I've learned, you know, from various people along the way.

[Tracy Thomas]

I like gossip, but I mostly just like hearing people's secrets. Like, I just love to be, I

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

love to know all the tea, which

[Tracy Thomas]

is, I mean, that's why I love,

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

after your games, coming back and hanging out with you and being like, okay, tell me about so and so. Like I'm always want to know because

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like to have a good sense of people is so important in any sort of like managerial role or any sort of team role. To have a good read on people and to like be receptive and also to know like when to step in or when not to.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Knowing all the gossip is good.

[Dusty Baker]

You know, the hardest part is knowing when not to step in. You know what I mean? Because a lot of times they don't want you to step in or they might want you to step in at a future point in time.

[Tracy Thomas (Host)]

Right.

[Dusty Baker]

You know, and like, you know, the way I am, the way I was as a manager, I didn't make up any of that to myself. You know, some of them came from my family background, being the oldest of five. So therefore I was probably more responsible than most. And then being a captain, you know, being a captains on my teams and then being the, the leader when I was in the Marines or, or a lot of times I didn't want to lead and I was forced to lead by somebody, you know, pushing you. Then after a while you quit ducking it because you're going to be pushed out there anyway. And so you just take the lead. And you know, all my life and my, I had Trouble really, you know, fitting in. You know, I never really fit in. And so I kind of like, you know, took it upon myself, okay, man, if I'm never really going to fit in, then I'll just, you know, do my own thing. And my own thing end up being right most of the time, or I was ahead of, or, you know, I was ahead of schedule. You know, like, I like this cloth, you know, that clothing or that clothing, and everybody's a man. Why are you wearing that? That's so weird. And then six months afterwards and everybody's wearing the same thing. And so, and so just a lot of times, you know, you're different, but you're only different because you're, you're probably, you know, ahead of schedule or ahead of your time.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. But okay, you said that everything is, has nothing to do with you and that you learned it from other people. But at some point you went from being like this rookie manager with the Giants to being Dusty Baker. I mean, you went from being a guy who was, who turned out to be good at his job, but they took a pretty big risk on you. They didn't know. And then eventually you become the guy they bring in. In Houston when they're in. The team is in full fledged crisis. You don't just bring in anybody. So there must be some things that you've developed that have become like your signature in what you did.

[Dusty Baker]

You know, something I don't know, Tracy, Honestly, I just tried to be myself and tried to be, and tried to be honest as I could. And a lot of people, you know, recognize things in me that I didn't recognize or even want to see. You know, Al Rose, Al Rosen is the one who, who told me that I'd be a fine manager. I didn't want to manage, I didn't want to be in baseball, you know, but he, he, he called me and said, hey, man, we want to talk to you about a job. And I said, no, I got a job. I was a stockbroker at the time, right? And I was, I was studying for myself and I passed the 6 and 22. And I was trying to take over our company, you know, after my brother, you know, went down. Manic depression. And so I said, hey, I don't want to match. And I said, you don't even know me. And he says, well, I've, I've seen how you are across the field. And I was like, really? And, and, and that's one thing that I tell young people. You never know who's watching you. And the person that's watching you could be the guy that's going to give you a break in life. Because at that time, I was at a crossroads, and I really needed a break, you know, in life, because my marriage is upside down, my finances are upside down. I mean, you know, my brother Vic, you know, was in and out of institutions. I mean, I. I didn't know what to do. And, you know, to me, the Lord put me in that situation at the right time of my life. But I also tell young people, you have to be prepared to recognize the breaks. The breaks when you're getting them, because you. You. You don't know. If you don't recognize your breaks, you won't follow that lead. And a lot of times that lead, you know, will take you to heights that you never thought about before. I never thought about, really. The hall of Fame. Take the truth or. Or being manager of the year. Nothing. I just like to win. And. And I figured. I like to win. I like to make money. You know what I mean? And they come hand in hand, and I. Yeah, you don't make money and then win. It don't happen like that. You win, and if you win, everything else will take care of itself.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

I want to come back to winning and losing, but before we do, I want to just. There's a moment in the book that

[Tracy Thomas]

you're sort of alluding to, which is, like, knowing when the opportunity presents itself to you.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

And there's this little anecdote in the

[Tracy Thomas]

book where the Giants have sort of offered you the job to be manager. And you are like, I don't know. I gotta go take a break and think about it.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

I gotta go up to Lake Arrowhead.

[Tracy Thomas]

And your dad's like, yeah, like, go. Go pray on it.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Like, go see if you get a

[Tracy Thomas]

sign, and you're up at Lake Arrowhead and you get a tap on your shoulder, literally.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

And you turn around, and the owner

[Tracy Thomas]

of the Giants is standing there, and

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

he says, dusty, come. Come work for us. Come. Come manage. And you call your dad, and you're like, hey, dad, this crazy thing happened. I ran into the owner of the Giants. And you're. And you're like, I just.

[Tracy Thomas]

I still don't know.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

And your dad says to you, hello, that is a sign.

[Tracy Thomas]

He.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

The man tapped you on your shoulder. What is wrong with you? So it's funny to hear you say you got to know when the opportunities present themselves, because you still almost missed it.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah. And you know why? Because that's not what I. That's not the sign I wanted to see. Yeah, you know, I mean, that was the last. I mean, I did not want to see that. And like I said, he tapped me on the shoulder. I had known Bob Lurie from when I was on the Giants of one year in 84. And he got me on the shoulder. I turned around and it was Bob Lurie. And I hadn't seen him before that, and I didn't see him the whole weekend after that. So if I'd have gotten there two minutes earlier or two minutes later, I'd have never seen him. And, and my dad goes, son, if, if you went up there to pray for a sign and sign tapped you on the shoulder even before you said a prayer, he said, that's, that's something that you don't want to see. So, so you better, if you're going to ask for, for something, then you better accept what you asked for.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about winning and losing. When we were in Miami earlier this year for the World Baseball Classic, we were at dinner and you were talking, you said to me, or you said to all of us that the wi. The wins are never as good as the losses are bad. And I, I've been thinking about that ever since that was, what, February? I've not stopped thinking about that because I, I just, I, I relate to that so much. I feel that I have that competitive nature, though obviously not a athlete. But I'm wondering, like, if that's true for you, how did you continue on in a sport where you're playing 160 plus games a year, you're losing a lot. Even when you're winning a lot, you're losing a lot. Like, how do you mentally do that as a person who feels the loss is so hard?

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah, well, I feel them hard and they, and they wake me up at night sometimes for weeks. After I came back from the wbc, I thought about that one game that we blew against, against the Netherlands. Against the Netherlands. I mean, I was wondering, hey man, should I have done something different or is there anything I could have done or whatever? Because I take the losses personally. And like I said to you that night, I still can't figure out why the losses are so much greater than the wins. I think, you know, I'm supposed to win, you know, and my daughter asked me when she's, she's 47 now, she said, dad, why must you win all the time? And I was like, she might have been 8 years old. And I was like, what? She goes, why must you win all the time. I said, well, because I'm supposed to. Well, she said, dad, that's no. That's no answer. Because I wouldn't let her win if we were playing jump rope or jacks or tiddly wings. I'll let you get close, but I'm not going to let anybody win, you know, because. And I told her that they don't let you win in life. You know, if you win is because you beat somebody and you try to beat them fair and square. But to answer your question, that keeps me driven. And I remember. I don't know if I said in the book or not, my dad, when we lost to ANAHEIM and in 2002, my dad said, son, if you don't. If you didn't win that one, I don't know if you'll ever win. And that just stuck. I was like, man, I got to prove my dad wrong. Because, see, back in the old days, the old dudes, they. Negative motivation was prevalent. Now you can't use negative motivation. Everything's about positive motivation. But I believe that there's a certain amount. If you just sprinkle a little bit of negative motivation, you can't have too much. But that kept me driven in order to win in Houston, and then I wanted to win again, you know, and. Which is one reason why I went to Nicaragua, because I like that feeling of. Of winning, and I can't stand that. That feeling of losing.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. My dad was a negative motivation person, and so I. I'm kind of partial to it. I got that generation on the shoulder.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah, but that generation was. Was like that.

[Tracy Thomas]

I know, I know. But I tell my kids, like, the other day, my boys were playing, like, a little soccer game, and one of them was losing, and the other one was like, you can have another turn. And I said, don't give him another turn. Why not? I said, no. I said, if you're gonna play and one of you is gonna win, you gotta win so that the other person knows they really won. Because if you start giving away the win, then you don't even know if you really won or not. I'm like, one day he'll beat you. He'll turn around and beat you. Don't worry about that.

[Dusty Baker]

But you're not going to.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, you won. Yeah, but. Yeah, like, if you start handing out wins to each other, you don't even know what it feels like to have done a thing all the way to the end. I got. I kind of, like, got mad at

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

them, and they were like, we're Just sharing. I was like, don't share.

[Dusty Baker]

You're tough, Tracy.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

I am, I am. I don't. I blame you guys. All you, all my dad's friends who are competitive and winners, athletes, and you

[Tracy Thomas]

guys all like were just high achieving people.

[Dusty Baker]

But you saw, but you saw him, I mean, firsthand. Playing pool, playing cards, playing anything, huh? And nobody's gonna let anybody win him. Oh, no, he didn't like that.

[Tracy Thomas]

I, yeah, like I remember, I'll never forget. I was probably 7 or 8 and Brady was probably like 12. And we did a foot race from our house to the telephone pole and I beat Brady. And I was like, this is the best day of my life. And if they have been out here letting me win all the time, do

[Dusty Baker]

you think, what if Brady say he

[Tracy Thomas]

was like, oh, yeah, like he, you know, he was trying to act like he let me win, but he did it because he never let me win before.

[Dusty Baker]

I believe that

[Tracy Thomas]

you hate losing. You win the World Series in 1981 as a player, then you go on to have a 40 year non winning

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

the World Series streak.

[Tracy Thomas]

You play, you take five teams to the playoffs as a manager. Teams that had no business being there. The Cubs had. No, they had not the Reds, the National. I mean, the Nationals were good when you got to them, but still you took them. You had these, you had great teams, you had sort of random teams, but you never actually won one. Was there a point in your life where you kind of came to terms with this idea that maybe you wouldn't win the World Series as a manager?

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah. You know, when I was looking around at some of my friends as players, like Dick Allen, you know, Billy Williams, Ernie Banks, Charles Barkley, you know, some of these guys, it's like, well, maybe, but I just couldn't accept it. And I kind of semi accepted it when there was a two year period between the Nationals and the, and the Astros. And I didn't have, I didn't have an offer. And when I left the Nationals, we had won 95 and 97 games. I mean, that really hurt because I thought I did a great job. You know, when you do a good job and when you did.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Dusty Baker]

And then, you know, rarely as a manager, I wasn't fired. I just wasn't rehired. Which is almost the same thing. But you know, that one hurt because I really, really liked Washington D.C. a lot.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Yeah.

[Dusty Baker]

And you know, that that was as much my city in a short period of time as any city that I've been around. And I got a call from the Chicago. I mean, from the Philadelphia Phillies. And they wanted me to interview. And I went there, interviewed, thought I did a great job, saw some old friends, Larry Boa from my hometown, and different guys who I interviewed with and went back and they said that they were going to go with Joe Dirardi. And, you know, and I like Joe. I mean, and I said, okay, man. And so I was a little down about it. And Darren came to me and he goes, dad, maybe God didn't want you to go to Philadelphia. And I was like, really? I mean, little old dude. That's what I'm supposed to be saying to you. You know what I'm saying? And so next thing, about two days later, I got the call from. From the. You know, from the Astros that, you know, because they had had the scandal and all this stuff, and, you know, that was, again, out of my control. Like I said, there's too many instances in my life where, you know, I can't believe in God, you know, because it's like it just. Just these random things just don't happen to. To everybody. And. And they're. And it kept happening to me in my life, even though I didn't deserve most of them, but, you know, I. I try to do the most with them.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. And then you won. That was so great. That was so great.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah. And then I wanted to win again. And you know something? I mean, that run in Houston was. Was as good a run as I. I mean, they were. If we'd have won two more games, one each year, you know, we'd have went to World Series four years in a row, you know, and. And that's what I always wanted to do, because, see, as a kid, I was a Laker fan and a Dodger fan, and I didn't like the Celtics because they beat the Lakers, and I didn't like the Yankees because they beat the. The Dodgers, and, and. And. And they won every year, like 10 years in a row or something like that. And I'm like. And. And once I became a manager, then that's the kind of run I wanted to get on, right? Like, hey, man, why can't we win every year? And then now I'm in a position where I think I can help build a team, because I know what it takes to build a team. I know what you need. You need speed. You need some this and you some that. You sprinkle a little bit of this and a little bit of that, and you can win, and you can win for a sustained period of time. And that's where I am now. I'm in a consulting role. I do wish I would be depended on more, but you know, but who knows, maybe in the future.

[Tracy Thomas]

I seem to remember you telling me after you won you were going to do one more year and you were going to retire. And then the next thing I know, you're back to work. So I don't. Well, not really sick of you.

[Dusty Baker]

No, no. But you know something? I did retire. I retired from the field.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sorry.

[Dusty Baker]

Every day because I don't have the energy, you know, like I've had a stroke 13 years ago, I've had two, three ablazes to. To, you know, defibrillators, pacemakers, you know, that's enough. And you know, I got need some time with my grandkids and some time to see Darren play and enjoy some of these, you know, some of the things I've worked so hard for. But I learned from my dad to see. My dad worked two jobs for 36 years, my dad. And so I talked him out of. He worked for the military as a civilian. He worked for Sears as a salesman. And he was like salesman of the month for like 20 months in a row or something like that. So I talked him out of retiring. I mean, into retirement. I said, dad, why don't you just stop? He goes, okay, well, then my dad almost died. He got deathly sick. And then he went back to work working like 15 to 20 hours a week. And he got. Well, so, I mean, you have to do something. You know, you can only play golf so much. You can only play, you know, fish so much. And I remember when Bill Walsh, Bill Walsh, who was like one of my main mentors, you know, we would have this, you know, these sessions at his house, and he had a grease board. And I still have all Bill Walls's cards that he gave me, how he started the 49ers and, and the papers off the grease board. And the thing that I remember probably most, he. And he said that most men get depressed about 65 to 70 years old because they quit working, they have nothing to do, and then they have nothing to replace that 70% of. Of time that work occupied.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right?

[Dusty Baker]

That's. And if you work 40 hours a week, I mean, how do you. How do you replace 40 or 50 hours a week? And so you have to, you have to do something to keep your mind sharp. Plus, I'm very aware that, you know, dementia is running my family. My dad died dementia. My mom died of dementia. So therefore I try to, you know, not use MapQuest unless I'm lost. I try not to, you know, I try to, you know, memorize telephone numbers, you know, try to try to do whatever I can, you know, to stay sharp. Including, you know, some part time things. Even though Melissa says, you know, she thinks I work too hard. But, you know,

[Tracy Thomas (Host)]

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[Tracy Thomas]

Summer is finally here.

[Tracy Thomas (Host)]

It is my favorite season. There is so much good stuff happening over here at the Stacks. You all know about the podcast, of course you do. You're listening to it right now. But do you know about the Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter unstacked on substack? Listening to this show supports the work I do. It goes a super long way, but if you want to go the super duper is longest, most extra miley way. You should consider supporting us on those platforms. You get perks and it makes it possible for me to make the show. Plus, between now and September 22, any paid member of the Stacks Pack on Patreon or a subscriber to my newsletter gets my non fiction reading Guide. It is 30 nonfiction books that I love. It is exclusive to both of those platforms and you know you want it. Plus it'll be gone come September 22nd, so you've got to join. In addition to getting the nonfiction reading guide on the Patreon, you've got access to our book club meetups to our private Discord. You get a bonus episode. You get the Mega Reading Challenge and then in the newsletter you can hear me give all of my hot takes on books. Pop Culture Every month I rank every book I read and order from least to most favorite. I'm giving you the inside tea on all of these books. You also get that bonus episode each month. Making this podcast is a collaborative effort and by supporting the Patreon and the Substack, you allow me to make this podcast alongside my incredible team so they can do what they do best. So if you're looking to meet other bookish friends, if you want to hear more book conversation, join me on Patreon substack or both. You could join the stacks [e-mail] the stacks and you can subscribe to the newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com and both of those links are right there in the episode description. All right, see y' all in the stacks. When I started the Stacks, I learned pretty quickly that having my own business was going to involve a lot more than just reading great books and talking to my favorite authors. There were episodes to schedule, scripts to write, logos to create, social media to manage. And as you all know, my to

[Tracy Thomas]

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[Tracy Thomas (Host)]

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[Tracy Thomas]

One of the things about you that I think is so great that I don't feel like you talk about nearly enough is that obviously you know so much about baseball. You've been in the game for forever, but you are a man with many interests. You read, you Listen to music, you care about a lot of different things. And so I'm wondering how at all, if you feel like those things have, like, I mean, you hunt, you fish, you. There's so many things that you're passionate about. And I'm wondering how those things have played into your sort of success professionally, if at all.

[Dusty Baker]

Well, I think those things have played a major role because it keeps me yearning for knowledge and it keeps me inquisitive, you know, for things, instead of just saying, okay, man, I've accomplished this and I know this and I know that. And, you know, you can learn from everybody. And, you know, it's. As you get older, the hardest thing to do to probably is to listen because, like, you've experienced so many things, you can chime in on almost every. Oh, yeah, let me tell you about that time or, oh, yeah, I was over here and I did that. And as you get older, you know, if you force yourself to listen, then, you know, there are things that you can, you know, you can still pick up and still learn. And it helps me, you know, I'm. I'll be 77 next month. Helps me having a wife that's 12 years younger than me, and it helps me to have a son 27 and a daughter 47, because they keep me young and they keep me hip on what's up Now. The only thing that I can't seem to grasp, you know, is the telephone and this technology.

[Tracy Thomas]

Can we tell the people what you do with your emails? Can we please share that secret?

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

It's the best thing about you that nobody knows.

[Dusty Baker]

Go ahead, Tracy, you say it.

[Tracy Thomas]

How do you. No, you tell them. How do you get your emails?

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

What happens with your emails?

[Dusty Baker]

Well, they pile up and then I erase them, and then I erase the wrong one sometime or I have or.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

What does Melissa do with your emails?

[Dusty Baker]

Oh, yeah, she answers. Or she, she, you know, hooks me

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

up and she prints them out. She prints them out?

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah, that's because I like, listen, I like. Okay, listen. I like printed stuff, you know, because I can read it, I can mark it up, I can go over. I mean, see, I make a list on what I'm going to do every day in the morning.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Like a to do list?

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah, to do list. And I try to do that on my phone and. But sometimes I got my list on the phone, but I forget to even look at the phone because sometimes I refuse to be a slave to that phone. I mean, and one time we. I was in Alaska with Darren and Kenny. I said, kenny, I Want you to film me, man. Okay. He goes, what are you going to do? I said, I'm gonna throw this phone in the water. And I said. And I said, you film it and it'll go viral because you don't know how many people want to do the same thing. And so. So I was all poisoned, ready to throw it in the water. And he was like, okay, let's go. I couldn't do it because I thought about how much the phone costs or how many contacts I had in that phone.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Oh, my God.

[Dusty Baker]

But. But someday. Someday, if you hear about me throwing this phone in the water. Because, see, sometimes. Sometimes I get tired, you know? You get tired of always having to answer stuff.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Very relatable. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I. I'm.

[Dusty Baker]

Is it really?

[Tracy Thomas]

I write a handwritten to do list every day. Every work day.

[Tracy Thomas (Host)]

Every workday.

[Dusty Baker]

Yes, yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then in my phone, I have another list when I'm not in front of my yellow pad where I just add things in case I forget. Like, oh, shoot, don't forget to do that. I'll put that in my phone. But then I'll put a list and put it in. Yeah. No. When I found out the Melissa prints her emails, I.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

It's the greatest thing I've ever heard in my life. I think it's so funny.

[Tracy Thomas]

I.

[Dusty Baker]

And the only time she gets mad is when she has to go get some more ink toner.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

And then I'm like, it's so silly.

[Dusty Baker]

Or if I want. Or if I want color, she goes, color?

[Tracy Thomas]

In this economy?

[Dusty Baker]

I'm telling you. And then we had to go buy a bigger printer because.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Because it's not like you're printing a bunch of other things. You're just printing.

[Dusty Baker]

That's the only thing I'm printing. Yeah. Or, you know, contracts or things that I have to. I can sit down, study, read, dissection. You know what I mean?

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Yeah, yeah. It's.

[Dusty Baker]

Who told you that, Melissa?

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

You told us.

[Dusty Baker]

Oh, did I? Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think Brady knew.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Brady brought it up at dinner a few months ago, and I think we were all laughing so hard. It's just the funniest thing ever, because I also think, like, you're you, so

[Tracy Thomas]

you don't understand fully what you mean

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

to people and to the world because you're you. But, like, you are Dusty Baker, you know, underlined exclamation point with, like, a little crown, you know, like, you are the Dusty Baker. And so the idea that you, one of the most accomplished people in all of baseball, doesn't know, doesn't Read his emails but hasn't printed out is hilarious.

[Dusty Baker]

No, but I do read them. But Melissa prints out the. The important ones.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

The important ones, Got it.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah, the important ones. I read them, I'm telling you. But it takes time. But I'll erase some good one in a minute because it's like, you know, check, boom, delete, delete, delete. And so, like, I tell people I'll read a text before I'll read. I'll read a email.

[Tracy Thomas]

And you also, you're.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

You also sign your text messages Dusty, as if we don't know who's texting.

[Dusty Baker]

Everybody doesn't do that.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

No, because it says who it's from.

[Dusty Baker]

Well, I want you to know contact

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

name, so I know when it comes in that it's you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Though your phone number is private, which is always terrifying.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

I'm like, who's calling me?

[Dusty Baker]

Right.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

But your text messages, we know. No, not everybody.

[Dusty Baker]

The reason I got it private is because, see, sometimes certain members of the press, not many, you know, pass your number around.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Yeah, no, I understand.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah. I was getting calls from everywhere. North Dakota, Maine, I mean, you name it. Illinois, on every subject. And you know how I feel about that phone. And see. And see all my friends. And Melissa, she says, you know, they all say I cut them off on the phone and they were like, they were calling me like, you know, three minutes, signal went through. It went through in the old days

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

because, hey, the phone is ringing in

[Tracy Thomas]

the background right now.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah. And see, and check this out. And see, I'm one of the last people that has a. A landline.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Yeah, you are.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah, yeah. And. And I have a landline because I don't want to leave my. My. My cell phone on during the day, and at night I want to get to sleep. And, and, and I have a landline in case there's a emergency within my family because they have my landline.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right, right, right. Wait. I want to talk about the media because I know that you have had a long relationship with them as a person who's been in the public eye for a long time. I remember there were certain cities that you didn't care for them as much as others. I won't name names, but I remember, and I'm wondering, you talk about, in the book, you come from this family. Your mother was political and sort of, you know, not necessarily political, like politically active, but was political and believing in the equality of black people. Your aunt. You have a picture with your aunt with Martin Luther King in the book, which is so cool. And you know, I know you, so I know that you have political beliefs. There's things, there's mentions, there's comments about Obama in the book, in the episode epilogue, you sort of talked about this period in American history right now. But I also know that you, as a black manager and player, were really cognizant of your perception in the public eye, what the media would say about you, how they would twist your words, how they would make you. You know, what. What the media does. Right. And so I'm wondering if there were ever times in your career, looking back, where you wished you had said something or you wished you had done something that was maybe, like, spoke out more or stood up more for anything when you look back.

[Dusty Baker]

Not really, Tracy, because, like, a lot of times, you know, when I spoke, I would speak in a. In a sense of a parable that she had to look into what I said, you know, because I say what I mean, and, you know, a lot of times it's gotten me into trouble. But at the same time, I think I spoke out, spoken out plenty. The problem was that I was speaking out about the same things over and over and over and over.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Yeah.

[Dusty Baker]

And see, to me, that's a waste of my time, especially if no one's listening. And if you keep talking about the same thing, the equality in sports, every year, it's during Black History Month. Every year is doing Jackie Robinson Day, and then after that, we don't do nothing about it. I mean, there are less black players in the game now. Less black players. I mean, people in the front office, black. You know, less black coaches, black scouts, you know, everything. And. And it gets frustrating because, you know, nothing's kind of, you know, been done. I mean, there are a few things that, you know, improvements in the game, but there are a whole bunch of things that have been deleted along the way. And, you know, I was not the only qualified black man to take a job as a manager.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Dusty Baker]

You know, there's a lot of qualified guys out there, but it just seems like, you know, it seems like there's a quota of 2. You know what I mean? And that's been a. And then before that is a quota of three or four. And it's just frustrating when you see, you know, you hope that what you have done in your life will help others, but it doesn't appear as such.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you think we'll see a resurgence of black American players in the league? Do you think that there's a path forward to that, or do we. Do you think that those like Lines have sort of dried up over the last few years.

[Dusty Baker]

No, no, no, I. I think there's a. There's a path forward. You know, baseball's doing. Making a conscientious effort to. To. To help black kids play because it's a very expensive sport to play now. You know, it wasn't like that before. I mean, nowadays.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, all the sports are expensive now.

[Dusty Baker]

Oh, yeah, I saw that with my son, you know, with the travel ball and the end equipment and. And the travel and the hotels and different things. And one of my godsons, Delvin Matthews, the son of. Of Gary Matthews, one of my best friends, well, he and Jerry Manuel, who's my homeboy here in Sacramento, used to, you know, be a ball player with the Tigers. He managed the White Sox. You know, they're in charge of, you know, putting on clinics, games, Dodger Town, just different games all over the country to help black kids play. And. And if they play, then, you know, some of the brothers have to. Have to make it because they can play.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, kids even want to play, like. Or do they want to be basketball players or soccer players? Like, I feel like, culturally, baseball is not like, I feel like back in the day, like, in the 70s and 80s and 90s, it was like Barry

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Bond and like, you know, in Oakland,

[Tracy Thomas]

Obviously, in the 70s, it was the A's. They were such a big deal. They won three in a row, like. And there were all the brothers on the team.

[Dusty Baker]

But see, Tracy, back then, you know, there were more brothers playing baseball, right?

[Tracy Thomas]

So that's why I'm wondering, like, and it is good. Do they want to go into baseball, or are they still hoping they're going to get a basketball or.

[Dusty Baker]

I didn't want to go. I love basketball, too, though.

[Tracy Thomas (Host)]

I know.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love basketball, too.

[Dusty Baker]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, like, the kids aren't talking about. I feel like young people today aren't talking about and watching baseball in the same ways that Even in the 90s, I was like, baseball was my number one sport. When I was reading the book and you brought up Ellis Burks, I was like, my guy, remember my 13th birthday, you got a picture with him and

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

you got him to sign the ball for me. And my dad was like, why do you like this old man?

[Dusty Baker]

And his old man could play. He could play. I loved him.

[Tracy Thomas]

He was my favorite.

[Dusty Baker]

But Tracy, they had. Those guys are heroes. You know, a lot of the kids don't have the heroes that we had then. You know. You know, my heroes were. Were Jim Brown and Gail sayers and Lenny Moore in football, and then I had like, Bob Hayes and track, and then I had Elgin Baylor in, in, in basketball and I had Tommy Davis. I mean, in baseball, guys, you know, to emulate and look up to. And when I was a kid, you know, they had the sepia, ebony and jet, and I think ebony or one of them had the number of blacks on every team in the league.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Dusty Baker]

And I never forget that, that I was motivated at that point in time because of pirates, the, the, the Braves, the Indians, historically, Giants. Right, yeah, and the Giants, you know, they had the most combination of black and Latins. And so, you know, once, once some of these kids come back into the fold and make it to the big leagues because he's. Some of them going to make it, you know, and especially when you have a few brothers that are, that are number one draft choices. See, when you're number one draft choice, they're going to give you every opportunity to make it because they want to return on the investment, whatever they signed you for. And see, and see when you, I mean, it is a business. And when you're a lower round draft choice, you have to impress in a hurry because they don't have a whole bunch of money invested in you. So, you know, so hopefully soon here and, and I hope in my lifetime that, you know, we'll see more and more and more and then, and then it'll turn over and then hopefully we'll see. You know, once they start talking about how much money some of these guys are making.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Dusty Baker]

You know, it's like, oh, wow, man, I better go play baseball. But it is hard, Tracy, if you love basketball, to get basketball out of your system. Because, see, the only way I got it out of my system is to hurt my leg.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

You got hurt?

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah, I got hurt and it almost cost me my career. And I didn't fall in love with baseball until I hurt my knee playing basketball. And there was a song when I was a kid and I was a teenager called Basketball Jones by Cheetah Charm. I had it bad, trust me. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I mean, listen, I grew up watching all the sports. I love all the sports. The older I get, the more I love baseball, which probably makes sense, but. But I do. I mean, like the World Baseball Classic. I think the USA team only had two black Americans on the team. That to me is crazy.

[Dusty Baker]

Like, and me too.

[Tracy Thomas]

That to me, it's just like, how are the kids even going to have role models in baseball when there's like three of them?

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

It's Like Mookie Betts and Aaron Judge and that's it.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, Mookie Betts wasn't even on the World Baseball Classic team. He didn't make the. He didn't make the All Star Game last year. But it's just like. I. I'm so worried because I want

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

us to be out there. I just.

[Tracy Thomas (Host)]

I.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I. I mean, I also have so many. Well, let me ask you, what do you think of the runner on second and the pitch clock and all of the new rules to make the game faster?

[Dusty Baker]

Well, I mean, some of us. Some of us. Good. You know, the only thing I don't understand is why we got the runner on second during the season, and then once. Once we get to the playoffs, then we don't have the runner on second anymore. You know, I don't like.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's the one I hate the most. I hate the runner on second one. I hate it.

[Dusty Baker]

Right, right. Because you gotta earn your way on second.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. It's just like, oh, someone's just gonna be there.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

No.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah, but Tracy, nobody. No, my opinion wasn't asked on any of this, you know, that's why I'm asking you now. No, no, but listen. But sometimes, you know, people say, how come you haven't stood up more this and that. Because, see, sometimes you. Sometimes you realize that. That. That your voice not going to mean anything because people going to do what they want to do anyway, especially those that empower, will do anything and by all means necessary to remain in power. So, so. So, therefore, you know, sometimes I say and sometimes I don't say. But if I don't say, then I'm waiting for the right opportunity to say. That makes sense.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

It sure does. Sure does.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I. I don't. I don't like the new rules. I always tell people I feel like the most like my dad. Every time baseball makes a rule change,

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

I know, I get so mad about it.

[Dusty Baker]

But it's too late. It's too late, Tracy. I'm just telling you that we got to find a way. We got to find a way to play within these rules whether you like them or not.

[Tracy Thomas]

I know. I still watch, but I just don't like it as much when we get to extra innings and then they just trot out some fast kid and put him on second base. I'm like, where'd you come from?

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

You just.

[Tracy Thomas]

Just out there now?

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah. You made your last out the kid.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm just like, surprise. Here you are.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

I hate this.

[Tracy Thomas]

There's a story that's not in the book that you've told me before. Can I make you tell the people about it, about Pete Rose?

[Dusty Baker]

Okay, go ahead.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I just remember when I read the Pete Rose book, I text you and I was like, I just read this great book, book about Pete Rose. And you know, I know. I remember you saying you always liked him, and then you told me why you liked him. Will you tell?

[Dusty Baker]

I love. Oh, I love Pete Rose. And you know, Pete was cool with, with almost all the black players, especially back in a time when it wasn't cool to be and, and he was close to Vader Pinson and, you know, Frank Robinson, and he took a liking to me and Ralph Garr from the get go because, you know, we came into the league hit and you know, Pete loved competition. He's like, hey, Baker, keep up with me today. He always asked, how many hits you going to get today? And I said, I feel like a two for four Pete. And he said, two for four. He said, man, why are you giving away two outs before you even get to the plate? And I was like, hey, that makes sense. And that's why Pete Rose got 4,000. I have almost 2,000. But you know, but Pete Rose told me, he said, you know, man, I must be part black. You see this butt I got? He said, you see this ass? And I said, yeah, Pete. And I tell you, he used to kill me, but Pete helped me. Pete helped me at a time long after I was in my playing time, when I was, when I was having some problems off the field and fighting Uncle Sam and the taxes and stuff. And when I was on first base as a player, Pete Rose. I asked him, I said, pete, how are you doing this? Because in the middle of his 44 game hit streak, he was getting divorced, his dad died, all kind of stuff. And he told me that you have to use baseball as a sanctuary away from your problems. Because when the game's over with, your same problems you came to work with are going to be there when you, when you get home. And then that really resonated with me almost 15 years later. But, but, but, but that goes back to what I tell these kids that Hank Aaron used to tell me things. And he'd say, dusty, you understand? I said, oh, yeah, Hank, I understand. I didn't understand nothing. So he's like, he's like, well, I know you don't understand, really. But he says, whatever I'm telling you, he says to retain it. And that was some of the best advice I ever had. And then if you can call it up when you need it. Upon. Upon command, boom. You'll know what to do in that situation. And that's what happened to, you know, the same thing that Pete Rose told me. I called it up. Boom. And I was like, man, Pete is telling the truth. Because, see, you know, when you get home, those problems are going to be there. But it's hard. It's easier said, Easier said than done.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Okay, so there's a few questions I ask everybody who comes on the show. So I'm going to ask you. When you were working on this book, how. What, what was your routine like for that? How much were you writing? I know you worked with the, with the co writer. Were you. How was that process? Did you have snacks and beverages? Did you go out of the house? Were you listening to music? Like, how are you getting into the creative zone for the book?

[Dusty Baker]

Oh, that's. That's a good question. Depends on which part of the book I was in. You know, I mean, I was. I listen to music all the time.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Dusty Baker]

And just depends what, what kind of genre I'm listening to, depending on what mood I need to be in. And no, I didn't do much of the writing. I did a lot of dictating. Steve did most of the writing because my hands. I have arthritis in my hands. And so when I love to write and it had been, you know, too hard, I'd tell you the hardest part of writing this book was to. Was to have to proofread the same chapters over and over and over and over. And it took two years to write. Spent hours and hours upon the phone. Steve came over to my house. You know, we met. You know, he was in Europe. He was in Cambodia, Vietnam. We were talking, trying to figure out, you know, the time difference in the hours. And, you know, the hardest part. And also the hardest part was, you know, they gave me a. A limit on the pictures. And my mom kept. Oh, my mom kept everything.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

There's three photo sections in the book.

[Tracy Thomas]

I loved it. I loved it.

[Dusty Baker]

I could have had eight. I'm serious about that. And the next difficult thing about writing a book was having to kind of regurgitate and relive some of the. Some of the things that I. I had tried to, you know, suppress and had suppressed it, you know, but if you're going to tell your story, you know, you got to tell some of the good with the bad. I mean, you can't tell. There's nobody's business of knowing everything, but you can. You can tell. You Know most things, and the thing I didn't want to do was to involve or tell on anybody else.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Dusty Baker]

And, you know, that's not. You know, that's not me.

[Tracy Thomas]

You didn't answer about snacks and beverages, and that part's important, so I got to get you on record. Do you have writing? Snacks and beverages? I don't think I've ever seen you eat a snack ever.

[Dusty Baker]

No, I don't. I don't snack much. You know what I do do? I just. Like, in baseball, during the game, I eat fruit.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was gonna say. I remember when we went to Seattle 2018, for Billy's mom's thing. You brought peaches to the ballpark, and we were eating peaches in the seats, and I was like, this was. I was so pregnant, and I was

[Dusty Baker]

like, this is the best. I love Seattle because I love going down to the. To the market. Yeah, it's the finest market. I mean, I get the Rainier cherries, and I come back with peaches and nectarines, and it keeps my sugar level up, and it keeps me sharp. Now that's what I do, you know, when I. When I'm writing or. Or in baseball. And it got to be a joke, because, see, some of the guys would steal my fruit. I put it in the. In the ice chest and have it, like, real cold. And I go in there, and then I like, hey, man, who stole my fruit? And I'm trying to act mad, but I'm not really that mad. You know, it's like a little kid. And so they guy would tell me, and they know I don't like snitches, so. So they wouldn't tell me. But then some guy would point over here, like. And it was always the same guy. Usually it was Framber. Framber would always. Framer Valdez. I mean, he was a culprit. I mean, he'd get my nectarines, he'd get my peaches, get my apricots. And so, like you said, I know I don't snack much. Now, my weakness is cookies, you know, like. Yeah. Late at night, you know, oatmeal raisin. Kind of soft.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Yeah.

[Dusty Baker]

You know what I mean?

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

I love a cookie.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love a snack. I love.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah, I do, too. But see. But see, I can't snack too much either because, see, I'm a type 2 diabetic, and so. So I check my vitals every day to make sure that I'm staying right and stuff. So.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, another question I have to ask you on the record is, what's a Word you can never spell correctly on the first try.

[Dusty Baker]

Perseverance.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Ooh, good one. That's a good one.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, and then last question for you. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

[Dusty Baker]

Boy.

[Tracy Thomas]

Boy.

[Dusty Baker]

Boy. Marcus Garvey.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Wow.

[Tracy Thomas]

That was a curveball. I wasn't seeing that coming. I love that answer.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Answer.

[Dusty Baker]

I love throwing you curveballs.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

I love it. You always surprise me, though. Every time I ask you a question and then I'm wait for the answer, I'm like, what's he gonna say?

[Tracy Thomas]

All right, well, everybody, thank you so much for listening. You can get Crossroads out in the world. Wherever you get your books, you can read it and see all the pictures. You can get the audiobooks. It is out as you're listening. It's out now. Dusty, thanks for doing this.

[Brady Thomas (Tracy's brother)]

Thanks for coming on the show.

[Dusty Baker]

Dang, little Tracy, you're a woman now. That's hard for me to accept.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm gonna be 40 this year.

[Dusty Baker]

Yeah, you're looking great. And you are good. You are good. I mean, I admire you and your whole family and your brother, your mom, your dad, because you guys are on it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Thank you.

[Dusty Baker]

Thank you.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love you so much. Thank you. And everybody, we will see you in the Stacks.

[Dusty Baker]

Foreign.

[Tracy Thomas (Host)]

Thank you all so much for listening. And thank you again to Dusty Baker for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Tammy Blake and Melissa Baker for making this episode possible. Our book club pick for June is the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, which we will be discussing with Mary HK Choi on Wednesday, June 24. If you love the Stacks and you want inside access to it, head over to page patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, take a moment right now. Just go ahead and do it and leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, you can follow us on social media at the Stacks Pot on Instagram threads and YouTube, and you can check out our website@the stacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Dewenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support is provided by Sheree Marquez, and our theme music is from Takirajis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.

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