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- [00:01]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
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- [00:22]
Justine Van der Lune
I think that the subject matter itself really unnerves people, but there's just no two ways about it that if we're writing about like sexual abuse and violence, I just really can't sugarcoat what happened in their lives. I was the narrator for the audiobook. It's very relentless, I think, in a good, really propulsive way. But like I just, I had this guy was my audiobook editor and I don't think he knew anything about like any of this. He was just a dude and he'd be like, can we take a break? So it is like very intense, but it mirrors the intensity of their lives.
- [00:56]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Foreign
- [01:00]
Tracy Thomas
welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas, and we are joined today by award winning independent journalist and author Justine Van der Lune to talk about her newest book, Unreasonable Women Three Stories of Violence, Imprisonment and Extraordinary Survival. The book is based on seven years of reporting, research and responses from more than a thousand incarcerated women and it explores the ways the legal system criminalizes victims of domestic abuse, focusing on the stories of three women who had to kill their abusers to survive. Today, Justine and I talk about how she went about conducting her survey, what she was looking for in her three main subjects, and how she thought about herself in relationship to objectivity and her audience as a journalist. Our book club pick for June is the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho and we'll be discussing that book with Mary HK Choi on Wednesday, June 24. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show Notes. If you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on Substack. In each of these places you get different perks, including bonus episodes, access to our virtual book club, my hot takes, and so much more. And more than that, you get to know that your support makes it possible for me to make this podcast every single week. To join the Stacks pack, head to patreon.com the stacks and to subscribe to my newsletter go to Tracy Thomas, substack.com All right, and now it's time for my conversation with Justine Vanderloon. All right, everybody. I'm very excited. I. As you all know, when I book people on the show, sometimes I hear about a book and I book a guest because I've heard about the book, and I think it's going to be good. And sometimes people pitch me, and I'm like, yeah, that sounds interesting. And then sometimes I start a book and I'm like, I love this so much. I must speak to the author. And today's guest is that third type of book. I am so excited. I am joined by Justine van der Lune. Her brand new book is called Unreasonable Women. It is about women who are incarcerated for murder under dire circumstances. It is fantastic, and I am thrilled to welcome Justine to the stacks. Welcome, welcome, welcome.
- [03:18]
Justine Van der Lune
Thank you so much. What a warm welcome.
- [03:21]
Tracy Thomas
I'm just. I'm thrilled. This book is, like, such a me book. You knocked it out of the park. I loved it. I want you to tell people in like, 30 seconds or so what the book is really about, because I sort of did a shitty job. I feel like there's, like, a. You have a better pitch than me.
- [03:36]
Justine Van der Lune
I'm not sure I do, but I can just tell that I really am not sure. I know that you're supposed to have an elevator pitch. My Unreasonable Women is about the phenomenon of criminalized survival, largely, which is when people, and it's usually women or girls, react to abuse or assault and are subsequently arrested, prosecuted, and often incarcerated for many years. That's criminalized survival. And I tell that story through unique data that I collected over many years from over a thousand women in prison and through the deeply reported stories of three women. Tanisha, TC And Gemma.
- [04:20]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. So this is one of those books, People, where you get the whole big story told through three people, which is, again, one of my absolute favorite nonfiction constructs. Can you. Okay, you mentioned your unique research. I need you to tell the people about it. This is the part of the book, it happens in the introduction, where you sort of lay this out for us. And I was like, oh, shit. We. This is. This is the book. Like, at first, I wasn't sure. I was like, I don't know if I need a book about women in prison. And then you explained how you got us here. So can you kind of set up for the people how you came to write this book and then what. What you did with the surveys?
- [05:00]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah, and I'll say that it's a book about women in prison, but I really think and hope that it's really just a book about Women and violence in America told through these stories of women in prison. Quickly, what I did was I got myself involved in reporting on this one story, the story of Nikki Adamondo in upstate New York. She was a young mom who was abused quite severely by her partner, had a lot of documentation of it, fought back one night and was just absolutely demolished by a prosecutor and sentenced to 19 years to life by a judge. And, and I reported on that story and I knew like everything about that story because I got so much access and I just knew it was just really weird to sit in a court and know, you know, I don't know the 100% truth, but to know that she was abused, to know that she, you know, highly likely that she defended herself, and then to see a totally different story spun. And so after that happened and after Nikki got 19 to life, um, I just thought, well, Nikki is like white and small and she's a preschool teacher. Well, she's a stay at home mom and she has all this evidence and like she had, you know, maybe not the best lawyers in the whole wide world, but, you know, not the worst either. She's outside of Manhattan. I'm just, you know, in the sort of middle class human community. So if this happens to Nikki, like, what does this happen? What's going on? And then when I talked to advocates and lawyers and formerly incarcerated women, everyone said, oh yeah, we all know, literally everyone who works with women's prisons knows that they're just full of nicis. That's who we lock up. That's what we do.
- [06:49]
Tracy Thomas
I'm full of nickies, meaning women who were abused or in abusive situations who finally fought back or stood up for themselves or said no to their abusers. And. And then we came the criminal or
- [07:02]
Justine Van der Lune
just somehow didn't die in a situation.
- [07:04]
Tracy Thomas
Somehow they survived. Somehow they survived the criminalized.
- [07:07]
Justine Van der Lune
And that's the criminalized survival. So it was just full of women like that. We all know that. Sure. And I said, well, great, so let's just. Where's the numbers? And everyone said, well, there. There's no numbers because, you know, as soon as you get convicted in a court, that's the fact. Like those are the facts of the matter. That is what we understand as the truth. And that's the true story. So now the true story is that follows these women is always, she's a murderer. That's her conviction, that's her felony, and that's what she is. And there's no way to. For them to break through that because that's the accepted story. But I talked to an attorney in. In Illinois who works on cases like this, and I was saying, so how do I prove it? How do I report on how enormous the problem is? She said, well, you could just, like, ask the women. And I was like, oh, okay. I love asking people stuff. It's like, what I do. How would I do that? She said, you just send them letters. And I was like, how hard could that be? She just said, get their names and send them letters. That's a great idea. I would love to do that. I had a friend at the time whose name is Tanya Sanchez. She used to be a political science professor at Yale, and she had done some data, just helping me for some immigration reporting I was doing. I said, tanya, could you help me out? Could we make some way to assess what these women's backgrounds are, Some way to communicate, like a survey or something? She said, like, sure, come over. We'll just do it. So I went over, sat on the floor of our apartment, and we did it. You know, we made this really simple survey. And then I started foiaing states or asking public information officers for all the women in the state convicted of murder or manslaughter, serving time. And then I thought, what have I done? What have I done? Because now I started sending out the letters, and. And I thought. When I started, genuinely, I thought stamps were 29 cents. Like, it had been so long. I think I went to a post office in 1996. Like, that was the last time. So then I found out they're 55 cents, and I think now they're 65 cents something. And then I realized it was this whole cost involved, but I was really committed. And then I realized you can't put stickers on envelopes because they're going to have drugs on them. So the prison system stinks, so you have to, like, handwrite it. I wasn't. I didn't know how to print it out in a printer. So I started, like, handwriting. And then I. I wanted to respect the women and. And make them think it was, you know, as personal as it could be. So I started to write, like, Dear Tracy, you know? But once I did it on the first 100, I had to do it on the next hundred, right? And then. So I ended up sending out 10,000 letters. Oh, my God.
- [09:40]
Tracy Thomas
How long did that part take you? Like, just the, like, printing, packaging, sealing.
- [09:47]
Justine Van der Lune
The process was a few years. I think I got them all out, like, fairly soon. I think I went into a kind of fugue state, and I Was just. It was also over Covid. So, you know, I did have my two kids, but I also, like, didn't have. I didn't have to do anything other than just this work, really. So I did that and got them back. And I just became really fixated on getting a thousand letters because I just thought, he said, she said is so strong that I just wanted a thousand she saids to sort of counter anybody saying, like, this isn't what's happening. I just thought, if I can get a thousand. So I actually. I did write to basically every name. I got a lot of names I didn't get. Some states just said no. Some states blocked me. But yeah, and then I got over 1,000 letters back. And they form sort of. The. The three women were. That I report on are three women that wrote back. But also all of the qualitative and quantitative research kind of forms the infrastructure for the larger or the more deeply reported stories.
- [10:52]
Tracy Thomas
And aside from, like, name, sentence length, racial background, age, what kind of things were you trying to get answered? What were the questions that you were the most curious about?
- [11:07]
Justine Van der Lune
So, because we didn't want to prime them, we never asked the questions I was most curious about outright. But a lot of what I asked was kind of like, can you tell me about your relationship with the person you're convicted of killing? Can you tell me about the days leading up to what happened? Tell me a little bit about yourself. That would help explain why you're here, your truth as you see it. And those particularly, I would say question 16, which was around sort of. Which I think I often thought of as, like, question 16. It's about question 16, because that's the one where I sort of asked, like, why do you think, like, what led you here? More or less, I asked. And so people. Sometimes people answered very shortly. But a lot of people also wrote quite a lot about what they believed had led them to where they were.
- [11:58]
Tracy Thomas
As I was reading the book, I didn't know anything about you. I didn't know anything about these women. And you start with Nikki's case as, like, how you just started today. So I sort of assumed that she was going to be one of the three people, and she's not. So you picked three different people. How did you pick them? And why did you not want to tell Nikki's story in the book as much? She's in the book, but she's not a main subject.
- [12:23]
Justine Van der Lune
Nikki's sister wrote a memoir called Dear Sister.
- [12:27]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
And.
- [12:28]
Justine Van der Lune
And I had just. I'd done the podcast on her story. I'd done her story. Like her story had been. I mean, she's never written her story, you know, but like her story had been covered. And the reason that she's actually in the start is it became clear to me. I got some feedback. I think it was. I started with Tanisha. In my first drafts, I was advised that people might need an easier way into the topic than Tanisha. And I do think that Nikki is always a much easier way into the topic. Not that anything. There's literally nothing easy about her story ever. But it seems to be a story that helps people get into the concept of criminalized survival and, you know, care about it and understand it in a really sort of clear way. And then we went to Tanisha and Tanisha was my first main subject. And I think she's kind of. I don't know. My husband read the book recently. He's. He hadn't, he'd been. He's never read the actual book until maybe a month ago. He said it's. It's clear that like your greatest connection is with Tanisha. And you know, people have their different people that they connect with. But for me, she was always the, the start. So I had picked her. Her case to me was really a perfect case because she had testified for the prosecution, for the state to make a case. That meant that also all the documentation that I could find was like the state's documentation. So it was kind of a perfect inarguable argument. Like you could not say that the things didn't happen because it's all just the state's version of events. So there's a lot of backup for that for her story and a lot of analysis to be made. And then once I chose her because her story is about she was forced to take part in a crime, then I wanted also someone a little bit more like Nikki, who had a straight self defense case because that's such a big part of criminalized survival. And Gemma had that straight self defense case. And once we had Gemma and Tanisha, I remember once my editor and I sitting there going like. Because we had found a few options for the third person, but they just didn't quite work. You need someone really specific. If you're reporting back and forth with someone in prison as well. They need to be so verbal and communicative and into the project because you cannot go in their car with them and hang out with them. You have to be really talking with them. So we needed someone like very good at communication. We wanted somebody from like we Sort of made up this. We were laughing at how ridiculous our wish list was for this person. Like, we want, like, this person who had, like. And we joked about it. And then within a couple weeks, looking through the piles, I had a research assistant had flagged this one woman and was like, this is an amazing story. And I looked at this woman, T.C. and I pulled out her, you know, 26 page letter that she'd written me that was brilliant. And I was like, does this hit every mark that my editor and I thought of as our ideal third person? Um, we also wanted someone that spoke to, like, the childhood trauma element, and she killed her abusive stepfather. So it was just those. Those three fit really well into the main points that I wanted to hit on the topic.
- [15:51]
Tracy Thomas
I, on this show, have had the pleasure of talking to many journalists who write books that follow subjects that are difficult topics. Brian Goldstone, who you know, Andrea Elliott, Roxanna is Gary. And like I said, your book fits into a kind of book that I personally just love. However, every time I have someone like that on the show, we have to talk about some of the stickier parts of doing this kind of reporting. And that is sort of like your relationship to the work as a journalist, your relationship to your own. Not that there's a broader objectivity, but your responsibility as a journalist as you see it. So I guess my. I have a series of questions sort of in this vein, and my first one is sort of like, you're pretty involved in these women's lives. I listened to the Nikki podcast. You're very close with her. It's clear that you're close with Tanisha. There's a section in the book that we're gonna talk about later where she's sort of. Sort of advising you and, like, coaching you and. And there are. You testified on behalf of her, I believe. Was it her? Yeah. So I'm wondering sort of how. What's your scaffold for what you are allowed to do, what you aren't allowed to do, how far Justine will get involved, and how much of your involvement you're willing to share with your reader.
- [17:19]
Justine Van der Lune
I mean, I. When I'm dealing with people who. Who. Who are living this. Right. I've been reporting on Tanisha's case for years. I'm not like, I love her as a person. I'm just telling the truth about what happened. Like, this is all documented and the thornier things. She's not perfect at all. And I'm not trying to hold her up to be. To me, I'm Not a J School journalist. I didn't work at the New York Times. A New Yorker. I kind of taught myself how to do it. And for thing, you know, I'm not paying people, I'm not doing anything like that. But if Tanisha has a chance at freedom, which I believe she deserves and I could, and she would like me to say some words as to why I believe as somebody who's an expert on this case and who knows a lot about the topic, I just feel like as a person it's kind of crazy for me to be like, well, you know, I'm a journalist, so. So I can't. And I do, I think become. I wouldn't say exactly friends. Like I would say I'm. I wouldn't maybe. But it doesn't feel like that because I'm not going to them for. I mean I asked Tanisha for advice, but we don't have a two way relationship where. Yeah, but there is a level of like intimacy where I think that first of all, I'm just not a very formal person at all and I'm asking a lot of them to share and maybe in part it's a technique like you. We need to be comfortable with each other. You know, we need to be comfortable with each other. I think in large part I'm pretty honest about it with the reader. I'm very present in the book. I'm not like a mystery of what I think or what I feel or, you know, anything. But I think that I would say that it is. My journalism has a point of view. I believe all journalism has a point of view. I'm just coming out and telling you what it is, you know. Yeah, people have a point of view. You're not writing about these things without one.
- [19:20]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right. Well, that's sort of. My second question is like your, your point of view, your politics, like your beliefs are very clear and they're on display here. And I'm wondering like, did you worry about the choice to do that? Because there is a world in which people could discredit your work as like activist journalism. In the pejorative though, I, you know, I, I personally believe that's like a good thing.
- [19:45]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah.
- [19:45]
Tracy Thomas
But it like there is a world where people can discredit what you've done because you sort of said the quiet parts out loud. Did you think about that? Did you and your editor ever worry about that? Or is that not something that is your concern at all?
- [19:58]
Justine Van der Lune
I, I'm not, I'm. First, I don't consider myself an Activist journalist at all. Like, I think there's a place for that. But me, you don't. I don't. I don't. I'll tell you why. I think when I started out and. And I have some more work that I'm doing that I think will prove this out. But, you know, I think that I started from an ideological place, which is like an end to writing about these issues, which is. I read a lot of abolitionist stuff. Like, I read about, you know, I read a lot about mass incarceration, obviously, like, very lefty right. I dispensed with that, like, in my reporting. And I think, you know, we might talk about that chapter. But, like, I really dispensed with the ideology at a certain point because I found when I followed that a part of me was just wanting to please the. The people in that space. And whenever I would write like that, the writing would just be bad. Like when I would try to write according to the ideology to like hit the perfect notes, that would be correct. I thought it was really boring. And the more and more that I reported on this topic, the less and less any ideology really fit. And I had to just decide, like, am I like. Like for a movement? Like, because I'm not. I'm really, first and foremost have. Just want to tell the stories as I see them. So. Yeah, no, I really, really don't consider myself an activist journalist, though. I know.
- [21:31]
Tracy Thomas
I think maybe we have different definitions.
- [21:33]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah.
- [21:33]
Tracy Thomas
What is the definition? I'm thinking of it like, in my mind, I was thinking of it more as like a journalist who is like, trying to persuade the reader towards like, like towards action or towards engagement.
- [21:50]
Justine Van der Lune
But then are like, Brian like Brian. And I would say.
- [21:53]
Tracy Thomas
I would say Brian would all be. I. I would say Brian definitely is for sure. For sure. Brian.
- [21:59]
Justine Van der Lune
Okay.
- [22:00]
Tracy Thomas
I would not say Roxanna is only. Well, actually I read that book Song though, that. Her conclusion. I. Okay, yes.
- [22:09]
Justine Van der Lune
I mean, if you sign Brian that way, then Roxanna and then I don't.
- [22:14]
Tracy Thomas
Andrea. Because Andrea wouldn'tre is the least. The least in my mind. And it's not. And I. Again, I'm not saying it in the pejorative way that people use it as like a weapon. I'm saying it more as like a complimentary way where it's like this per. This journalist goes into this world. Like, another example for me would be like, Matthew Desmond. Like, I mean, he's very much. I think. And I think he would say. I. I would assume he would say that he is an activist because I feel like he's done a lot of work around poverty since he wrote Evicted. But I think of it more as, like. Because, like, there's a version of this book where you are never in the book. We don't really know what you think, and you're just telling us the information. And I feel like you. Your point of view. And Brian isn't in his book. No, pretty much at all.
- [23:03]
Justine Van der Lune
I can't remember Andrea. She's very.
- [23:06]
Tracy Thomas
Andrea is a little bit. Because she goes to lunch with them and it's like, while we're out to lunch, while we do this. But all of that to say is like, I feel like you are. Because I feel like you're. You are there, like sort of guiding us. But I think because we have different definitions, it makes sense why you would say you're not. And in my mind, I feel like I'm like, you are. You are, but in your definition you're not.
- [23:29]
Justine Van der Lune
I mean, I would. I think more maybe that's interesting because I think what happened is. Partway through, I was like, I can't be. I could not be asked to adhere to the rules of movements.
- [23:40]
Tracy Thomas
Sure.
- [23:41]
Justine Van der Lune
And so maybe I. Then, you know, so maybe it is or isn't. I guess the work can. People can decide, you know, because I certainly have a point of view. But yes, I think at a certain point I was trying to adhere to like, all of these ideologies. And I was like, I just don't. And the stories are not. These are human beings, not human arguments, as Brian had said to me a few days ago. And I was like, that's really helpful. That was the truth. And. And so I guess from then on, I was like, I am not an activist journalist. I am not an activist journalist. So maybe.
- [24:07]
Tracy Thomas
But do you. I guess back to the original question, which is like, do. Were you worried that by sort of playing your hand more clearly and like, really pretty much stating. Exactly. Not exactly. Not like you're not. Like, this is what I believe, but like, it's very clear. Like you said, you're in the book. Did it ever become a concern for you that people would diminish your work because of that or would. Would be able to like, diminish these women because of that?
- [24:32]
Justine Van der Lune
I mean, I suppose they. They are free to. But I. I just, I. I felt like. Just I wanted to be honest with the reader. I don't want to pretend that I don't think something. I just tell you what I think. Like, you know, but I'm. It's backed up. And if that, for whatever reason, you know, you don't give it credibility, then okay. You know, I think I just, I just didn't feel another choice. I didn't feel another. I had to be very, like, honest in this book and I guess I just. No, it never really occurred. It never really occurred to me. Yeah, yeah, that's okay.
- [25:09]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, that's totally fine too. What about like the racial dynamics of it? Because as far as I can tell, correct me if I'm wrong, Tanisha is the only black subject. The other two women and Nikki are all white. And in your, at the end of the book, you share like a lot of your findings from the study. And it's disproportionately black women who are sentenced longer, I believe, and also are overrepresented in this population. Were you worried that you didn't have like a proper balance or that there should have been more black figures? And how did you decide to stick with the balance that you came out with?
- [25:47]
Justine Van der Lune
So I think that black women are disproportionately represented in prison, but they're not the majority. So actually I believe it's 13% of the general population is black and then it's 30% in women's prisons. I don't know about. I'm not going to men's prisons.
- [26:05]
Tracy Thomas
I think in men, yeah, it's different.
- [26:07]
Justine Van der Lune
So to that the three women, it's a third. You know, TC is a lesbian and that played a lot into her story, I think. And so, you know, I thought that was. I didn't pick. Pick her for that reason, but I thought that was. But the reality was like, sure, I would have loved to have the most perfectly balanced representative, but I really needed a lot of things out of the subjects, beyond them, just as representative of something. I needed them as like people to have these particular cases and I needed them to just be the type of person that I could work with and that really wanted to work with me. Like, that was really, you know, tricky just to have people who are really in it so that, that I don't know if I did wrong or right, however it was, but that was just how it turned out. And I do think that, you know, I don't know if you feel this way because I haven't read it as a, you know, first time reader, but I, to me, Tanisha's case is a bit bigger than the other cases. The story is a bit, is a bit bigger than the other stories. Just a little bit. We tried to get the balance right, but to me. Yeah, it takes up a bit more space.
- [27:14]
Tracy Thomas
Um, yeah, I would say her story is also just like, feels the craziest and so it feels really sticky. Like, in my mind, I would say Tanisha is like. Takes up the most space, then Gemma and then tc.
- [27:30]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah.
- [27:31]
Tracy Thomas
And also that their. Their cases also fit that. Like, though there were many times where I was like, I actually need to get back to Gemma. Like, I was like, what? Like. Because that's a. That's also a crazy story there. I mean, they're all crazy stories. They are TC's TCs. So we probably should tell people a little bit. So in the case you said before. So in TC's case, she was abused by a stepfather who she ends up killing, who was also abusing her mother. And they both, her and her mother end up being convicted for this murder in a sort of. And all of these are sort of like in a shady way. You know, like every single one, it's like this happened in a shady way. And by shady, I mean, like, the courts are shady. Because the thing that you say in the book that I was like, oh, my God, how come I've never thought of this? Is like, these women are in search of help and support their whole lives in need of a system. The system has help. And it's not until they commit these crimes that all of a sudden the full weight of the state is there, right there with them, but it's against them and it's well organized and it's like they've got their shit together. Don't try to file for some service if you need help, because then the bureaucracy is a nightmare. But the moment you commit a crime, all of a sudden you get the best DEA or the best day ever. From the movies is like the star prosecutor. I'm just like, how does this happen? So I found that to be. I think I knew that, but, like, having you articulate it, I was like, yes, of course. So that's tc. Gemma is a. She's like sort of middle class, right? She grows up sort of middle class. She's an army kid. She's sexually abused multiple times growing up. She gets in this, like, accidental relationship sort of with this man. Like, bad luck abounds in all of these stories. But she gets in this relationship and he's extremely abusive. They're raising her kids together and it's pretty much like he's abusing her. She finally fights back and she kills him. And then. And then Tanisha's case, like you said, she is involved in A murder at gunpoint, basically at the hands of her sort of roommate. Ex roommate.
- [29:58]
Justine Van der Lune
Like a roommate that, like, rapes her, basically, I think.
- [30:00]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Yes. They're like. They are like domestic partners. They're like platonic. Yeah, but she's like, cleans for him.
- [30:07]
Justine Van der Lune
She likes her do everything.
- [30:09]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
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Justine Van der Lune
She just needed a place to crash.
- [30:11]
Tracy Thomas
She need a place to live. And she. I don't know, like. Yes, they're roommates.
- [30:15]
Justine Van der Lune
That's the best. And that's the best term I could come up with that.
- [30:17]
Tracy Thomas
Your roommate who beats. It's very clear.
- [30:19]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah.
- [30:21]
Tracy Thomas
But. But importantly, he is her abuser.
- [30:23]
Justine Van der Lune
He.
- [30:24]
Tracy Thomas
And she has had. She has had a string of them in her life. And he, for some reason, decides to kill this neighbor. And she walks in and he's like, you're going to help me. And she does her. I mean, the story, it's like when I say it out loud. I was trying to talk about this book with my mom yesterday. I was trying to explain what happened, and I was like, I don't know. Just. Can you just read it? Because when I say it, it sounds dumb, but when you read it, it's like, holy shit. All of these stories. Because there's so many little nuggets along the way. It's not like the kinds of true crime stories where it feels very clear and linear. Especially Tanisha and tc, I would say, are both sort of like. Like kind of convoluted. Is that fair?
- [31:14]
Justine Van der Lune
I think. I think Tanisha is complicated, but actually, like, pretty straightforward. What happened? Because I've even talked to her roommate, ex roommate, abus, whatever, you know, And I've been like, did you, like, force her to take part in this? And he's like, yeah, like, I would have done that. Sounds about right. You know, like, there's no two ways about really what happened. I see, you know, the TC who killed her abusive stepfather who had been abusing her for her whole life and then was abusing her mom. That is the space in which some confusion exists. It's a long time ago, but I think you. You know, I was doing an event with Josie Duffy Rice just a few days ago, and she was saying, like. But the thing is, whatever it was, like, who cares? Like, who cares if it was convoluted like that guy? And I don't necessarily feel that way, but yes, that case is a little bit more. And Gemma's is just straightforward. He broke into her house. Yeah, she had. After she said to leave him.
- [32:17]
Tracy Thomas
Um, Right.
- [32:18]
Justine Van der Lune
But yes.
- [32:19]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, we're going to take A quick break and then I want to come back to tc. Summer is finally here. It is my favorite season. There is so much good stuff happening over here at the Stacks. You all know about the podcast, of course you do. You're listening to it right now. But do you know about the Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter unstacked on Substack? Listening to this show supports the work I do. It goes a super long way, but if you want to go the super duper is longest, most extra miley way, you should consider supporting us on those platforms. You get perks and it makes it possible for me to make the show. Plus between now and September 22nd, any paid member of the Stacks Pack on Patreon or a subscriber to my newsletter gets my non fiction reading guide. It is 30 non fiction books that I love. It is exclusive to both of those platforms platforms and you know you want it. Plus it'll be gone come September 22nd, so you've got to join. In addition to getting the non fiction reading guide on the Patreon, you've got access to our book club meetups, to our private Discord. You get a bonus episode. You get the Mega Reading Challenge and then in the newsletter you can hear me give all of my hot takes on books Pop Culture. Every month I rank every book I read and order from least to most favorite. I'm giving you the inside tea on all of these books. You also get that bonus episode each month. Making this podcast is a collaborative effort and by supporting the Patreon and the Substack, you allow me to make this podcast alongside my incredible team so they can do what they do best. So if you're looking to meet other bookish friends, if you want to hear more book conversation, join me on Patreon Substack or both. You could join the stacks pack@patreon.com the stacks and you can subscribe to the newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com and both of those links are right there in the episode description. All right, see y' all in the stacks. When I started the Stacks, I learned pretty quickly that having my own business was going to involve a lot more than just reading great books and talking to my favorite authors. There were episodes to schedule, scripts to write, logos to create, social media to manage. And as you all know, my to do list was endless. I was spending so much time sorting through all of these logistics, it was hard to find time to actually read books. When you're starting your own business, it helps to have a tool that can simplify everything so that you can focus on what actually matters most to you and your business. And that's why I want to introduce you to Shopify. Shopify makes starting your own business feel seamless with hundreds of ready to use templates to build your brand identity. They've got AI tools to help you write, copy and enhance images. They've got built in marketing tools to create bespoke emails and social media campaigns to reach even more people. And the best part is you can manage all of your tasks in one place, which makes your life easier and your business operate way more efficiently. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names to startups. And you know what? Now might be a perfect time for you to add your business to that list. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com the stacks go to shopify.com the stacks that's shopify.com the stack
- [35:52]
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- [36:16]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, we're back. So as I mentioned, I love the book, but there is a moment in the book that for me as a reader I was like, okay, I actually really respect this author because you ask yourself out loud in front of all of us some questions that I think sort of undermine you and your book in some ways. And to do that publicly and so straightforward and sort of to take the questions that I think many readers might have, especially in this is around TC's case. To take some of these questions and present them to us, I think shows like a level of care and bravery and also like a really critical understanding of what's at stake here. And what you sort of do is you say to your reader like, look, I know that some of these women who I'm corresponding with, not just the main subjects but just in general, they could be lying to me. They could be, they could have agendas where they are trying to make themselves look good or protect themselves from, you know, whatever, or just that they've, they've told themselves stories over the years to allow themselves to sleep at night. And how do I, a journalist, a person who's telling these stories like reckon with that and in response to that, you say sort of like, also, the prosecution has a story that they're telling, and, like, the lawyers and everybody is trying to tell a story, and everybody's trying to persuade the audience, whoever that may be, whether it's the jury or your reader or whatever, to believe their side of the story. And I just found this section to be, like, I think it makes the book better. Like, a lot better, actually, in my opinion. Like, I think it really elevates what you've done here. But I also recognize that it's. It's a really risky move as far as, like, being an authority and being in charge of these stories. So I'm wondering, was it always in there? Did you decide to add it? Was there a moment where you were like, I can't go forward with this because I feel like I don't know the truth, and I don't want to move forward if. What if. What if this person's lying to me? What if I'm reporting this thing as fact and it's not fact? So talk about this section that's Little
- [38:43]
Justine Van der Lune
Foxes, I think, that you're talking about. I think it's called Little Foxes.
- [38:46]
Tracy Thomas
Little Foxes.
- [38:47]
Justine Van der Lune
Little Foxes, yeah. That was definitely. I started this endeavor with such a vim and vigor and such endless energy and such a. Like, I was so strengthened by my belief in, you know, the righteousness of this, because I'd seen what happened with Nikki. I knew that, like, just factually, that was so wrong. And, you know, this. This was a corrective. And I also really loved, like, the women that were writing to me that I was talking to. I just thought they were fantastic as people, a lot of them. But the letters kept coming, you know, And I don't know, like, there's something about reporting where sometimes you report. And if you really wanted to make, like, life easy for yourself, you would, like, stop right there, you know? Like, you got a good end to that story that's fitting with everything, and if you could just stop, then you could just wrap it up neatly. But, like, I always keep going, and then you keep going, and you're like, oh, no. Oh, no. I learned a new fact that completely complicates everything. And now I can't. Either I have to leave it out, pretend I don't know that, or I have to confront it. And so doing this, you know, I think there was a certain point in the reporting when, like, I'm not dealing with, you know, people who are these elegant hostesses in, like, Connecticut. Like, I don't Know what? I. Of course, I'm dealing with population that's incarcerated for murder. And that doesn't mean that their life was just like, perfect and then something went wrong in one stroke of bad luck. It means there was a law that happened first and that they made a lot of errors. And maybe they made those errors because they had two bad choices and they picked one of those two bad choices. And their circumstances are always dire, like, every single one of them. And it's not that anyone is like, oh, I was, you know, working one day at my job at, you know, Bear Stearns, and then, like, things just went bad. It's just a series of bad choice after bad choice with no good choices offered. But then a lot, you know, so when I say, so when. From the data, I found that about 30% of the women incarcerated for murder and manslaughter were, you know, taking actions that they need to take to survive. And I do think that's an undercount because I didn't prime people. I didn't ask them, like, were you incarcerated for taking actions to survive? But there is a significant amount of women whose victim is a child. And to really contend with what that means is to just. If you. And I think this goes back to, like, the movement, journalist, whatever, like, if you are just approaching this from, like an activist point of view, then you just have an answer for that. You know, you just say, like, we all make mistakes that, you know, she couldn't help it. Like, moving on. We don't think about that. But I, I did think about that. I did think about, what does that really mean when someone has killed a child? And that and some interactions that I had with women who were not honest with me. And that's not. Nobody that was in the book at all, but other women, it was really deflating. And I started to question, like, am I just a sucker for wanting to do this? So I went through. And I didn't ever doubt my main subjects, but I just started to think, what am I doing? Like, putting all this energy into people who. Some of them, you know, who are often, like, couldn't I put, you know, put the energy into something easier to put yourself behind? But ultimately that going through that process made me come back to where I started, which was really thinking through, like, so if you accept the truth, which is that there are a lot of people that are really complicated that you're not. That you're going to be lied to again, I don't feel like that with my main subjects. But, like, you're not going to get ever the full truth, but not only from people in prison, but from nobody ever. You know, I just really work through that for a long time, for a long time myself. To be able to come back to the writing and finish it and care about it because of, you know, and a big part of that was just coming to terms with the fact that individuals will be messy, will not be. It will not be clean, it will not be a perfect story. And that doesn't take away from the fact that the structures in place are horrific and cruel and target only specific people. And you know, that when I think, you know, I talked to Tanisha and I said, like, am I naive? You know, have I gone in here just being sort of a fool, thinking everyone's gonna be this, like, quote unquote, perfect victim? And she was like, you're not naive. You're not naive. Like, there's a. And she says, there's savages. There's savages everywhere. There's savages in here and there's savages out there. And really, that really helped me come to terms with, like, yes, you know, we know our world is, you know, I'm the seat of the board and the head of a company. Those are all savages. And so there may be some bad people in prison, but that doesn't take away. Well, I don't even want to define them as bad. Messed up people in prison doesn't take away from the larger structural issues at hand.
- [44:14]
Tracy Thomas
Right, Right. I think it's interesting because the way that you went about your survey, it sort of opens you or brings you into, like, very personal versions. Whereas, like, when you're thinking about structures and systems, it's easier to think from, like, further away. And so it makes sense that you would get kind of caught up in that piece of it because you. You're down, like, on the ground. Reporting is different than, like, if you're in the helicopter. Right. Like, it's just the scope of it, the intensity. Speaking of intensity, how were you thinking about audience?
- [44:51]
Justine Van der Lune
How was I thinking about audience? It was. I was. I was like, sorry, you know, like, I was trying to tone it down, but I'm like, I can't tone it down. I tried and it just didn't work. And, you know, there's. And I think that it is, like, it's a topic that I find a lot of resistance to when I go out with it. Like, if I try to publish something, even getting people to read this book. And I think that the subject matter itself really unnerves people. Yeah, but there's just no way. There's just no two ways about it. That if we're writing about, like, sexual abuse and violence and domestic violence, I just really can't sugarcoat what happened in their lives. So, you know, early on, I just didn't. And then when I went back, I think I tried in one draft to tone it down, and my editor was like, what? You know, you gotta just tell the truth. You just have to write it. And so I did. And then I was the narrator for the audiobook, and I never read my book out loud. And I was reading it, and I was like, wow, it's a lot. It's a lot for someone to take. It's very relentless, I think, in a good, really propulsive way. But, like, I just. I had. This guy was my audiobook editor, and I don't think he knew anything about, like, any of this. He was just a dude. And he'd be like, can we take a break? Could we take a break for a minute? And I was like, no, we could keep going. And he was like, I think I just need a moment. So it is, like, very intense, but it mirrors the intensity of their lives. And I think that I wrote for women, really. And I just thought if women have experienced anything like this, and most women have on some very far end of the spectrum, I think they'll. They'll be able to handle it and maybe even feel like it resonates for them.
- [46:44]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. For my listeners. Because you always. You guys always ask me, like, how intense is it? And given that, again, this is the kind of stuff that I actually like, like to read. Because I don't know, I've. Something's wrong with me. This is an intense one. I. There in the beginning, even, I was like, okay. But that being said, to your point, Justine, it's very propulsive. I think the word. I was actually messaging with Roxanna about it, and we were like, it's very tight. Like, it's, like, tense and tight, which is good. You do have to go into some pretty dark, horrifying spaces. But because the book is not that long. You're never anywhere for too long. You're never in a place where, like, you can't get out. Which I appreciate, because for these women, they were. But I think you balance that really nicely for the reader. But it is. It's a hard one. It's not, because sometimes people write like. You actually mentioned two books in this book that I read last year with the same translator, you or I Went one this year, Giselle Pellico's book. And then also Nej Sino's book, Sad Tiger. And I would say if for people who have read those that, like, the Pelico is like, it's about an intense thing, but it's actually not that intense. And then Sad Tiger is about intense thing, and it's more intense. And I feel like there, like there is a way to do that. Like, but I do think you sacrifice some of the importance of the story. And I think, like, in the case of Giselle Pellico, it was important to do that because it was for a broad audience and like, she's a figure and, you know, people were going to be picking up the book and you don't want people to put it down and not get to the story. And I feel like I was thinking about that a lot. When you, like, invoked both of those books, I was like, right. They kind of do similar things in these, like, different ways, but they have the same translator, which I thought was fascinating.
- [48:50]
Justine Van der Lune
Yes. I love that translator so much. Natasha Lair.
- [48:53]
Tracy Thomas
Natasha Lair.
- [48:54]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah.
- [48:54]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah, she's really good.
- [48:56]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah.
- [48:56]
Tracy Thomas
But I'm also like, back to back Sexual Assault.
- [48:59]
Justine Van der Lune
She does all of memoirs. She does all of the sexual assault memoirs. Yeah, she seems to. Seems to be. But I loved Sad Tiger. I mean, Sad Tiger. To me, I was Sad Tiger. I mean, she pulls no punches. She's just tells you about it straight. Yeah, I thought that.
- [49:15]
Tracy Thomas
And Sad Tiger is interesting because it's also about the relaying of these kinds of stories. Did you read the Yeon Lee book, the. From last year, about her son's?
- [49:25]
Justine Van der Lune
No, I read the article, but I didn't read the book.
- [49:28]
Tracy Thomas
The book is amazing, but it's in. I would say it's very similar to Sad Tiger in that regard, where it's like, it's about these horrible things, but it's actually really about how do we talk about horrible things in public and how do we turn horrible things into, like, our own horrible things, into memoir or like, into something to be consumed by people who don't know us. And like, I don't know.
- [49:49]
Justine Van der Lune
Well, that was a big. I mean, that I. I would look, I would read. I think I. When you say that, I really appreciate it because I. I'm such a long writer. I'm like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was really conscious a. That, you know, we're competing now with social media in a way that we never have before. And I just thought about, like, I really wanted it to be as tight as Possible because I knew the material was difficult. I wanted you to be able to like, really want to know what was next and go through it. And so I was really. I mean, there's so much more obviously that like, I could have reported on. And I was stripping out, like, anything extraneous because I really thought, let's get this reader in, like, come into this book and like, I promise you can get out of this book. You'll get something from it, but also you'll be able to, like, I think once you're hooked, like, you have to know what happens. And it was so in terms of thinking about readers, I did think about that. I did think about, like. Because I know for myself, I'm so easily distracted now and. But when I get to read something good, that catches me, like, I've never been more grateful in my life for somebody, for an author giving me that. Because, God, I want to get off my phone and. But I can't do it if you're taking me on a slow, meandering meditation. I just can't do it anymore. So I thought a lot about giving people something to really be able to get through.
- [51:14]
Tracy Thomas
What about the COVID and the title? How involved were you with those things? When did you know you had the title? Did you have other titles?
- [51:22]
Justine Van der Lune
We never had other titles. At a certain point I was like, this is not the right title. We have to find another title. Spent forever looking for it. We could just never. We could never find the other title. Like, this was always it and it remained it. I mean, we came up with every ridiculous title, but this had been it from the beginning and it just went back to it. But I actually think it really works. I think it really works now. And you know that I won't, I won't bore anyone on self defense law. But basically it's a sarcastic title. Essentially it's a bit of a wink. And it refers to the fact that in self defense law, juries are asked to assess if somebody acted in self defense according to what is called the reasonable person standard or the reasonable man standard. And it's this hypothetical standard that is very confusing to me. It's confusing where you have to envision like this person, if they, the defendant, if a hypothetical reasonable person, knowing what this person knew and being in this situation, would have reasonably believed themselves to also be in imminent danger and then fought back. So that is a whole issue with self defense law. That doesn't really provide for women in domestic violence situations. But also it had been the reasonable man standard for many Many centuries. And then it was changed the reasonable person standard. And there has never been a reasonable woman. So the idea is that all of these women are acting so unreasonably by living.
- [52:52]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [52:53]
Justine Van der Lune
What about the COVID The COVID was Alison Foreigner. I got some early covers that just really had just a lot of women in states of undress and so puzzles. It just wasn't quite. And then we had like. Yeah, it was. It was a. So Echo very kindly agreed that they would allow me to, you know, bring Alison Forner in. I love her work. She's done a lot of text heavy covers, so I knew it would be text heavy. And she just gave me a bunch of options. I ended up. I ended up picking the one with these more psychedelic flowers on it, which was controversial in my home. Did they like. It wasn't the pick everyone would made, but I just. There was something about the. I wanted the women represented somehow. Um, and it just sort of spoke to me at the time.
- [53:47]
Tracy Thomas
Do each of the flowers represent one of the women to you? Like, is there like. Like the pink one is one or like. No.
- [53:53]
Justine Van der Lune
Well, I. I think that, like, when I showed it to the women, everybody knew who their flower was, like, right away. So who do you think is Tanisha?
- [54:00]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I'm going to say that Tanisha is the pink one in the center. I'm gonna say that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I feel like I could make an argument for Tanisha also being the purple one. I'm gonna. I don't. I don't know. I'm like, I don't know. Okay, wait, who do you think?
- [54:16]
Justine Van der Lune
So I'm pretty sure that Tanisha is Red and her nickname is also Red.
- [54:21]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. I didn't have that information. Okay.
- [54:25]
Justine Van der Lune
TC immediately picked purple for her, which I think is true. And I think Gemma is the pink. That is. That is. And that is what they gravitated toward. So interesting. I'm not sure that. But nobody. No, but nobody ever like, nobody ever. I don't think anyone ever said that. But I've always been like those things. But maybe Alison Forner has a different take. I don't know.
- [54:43]
Tracy Thomas
Maybe. Okay, is there anything that's not in this book that you wish could have been?
- [54:50]
Justine Van der Lune
No, no. I think my goal with the book, I was always just, you know, I just was very obsessed with it because I've written books before that I like after was like, I did not bring that to its full potential. Like, I did not do that. And so with this that was like my. One of my main goals is try to get it. Not that it's going to be the greatest book of all time, though it may well be the greatest book of all. But no, I never, like, I was like, I just need to have done this book as well as I possibly can. I just wanted to exhaust that. That was what I wanted to have after. Because then you have the book forever and if you don't do that forever, you're annoyed by. Oh, I should have gotten that in. Should have left that out. Like, you know.
- [55:34]
Tracy Thomas
Can I ask you with your other books, what is it that you feel like you didn't do? Like, did you know in the moment that it wasn't? No. So at the time you. But at the time you thought you had done, I don't know, you thought you had taken it to its fullest potential.
- [55:51]
Justine Van der Lune
Okay. My first book was like a co written wine memoir with some Italian wine cellar. So whatever. Not my problem really. Right. He like needed someone to write his memoir. My second book was about a dog in Italy. Okay.
- [56:05]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [56:06]
Justine Van der Lune
I found a dog in Italy and I wrote like a memoir and I sold it to like a decent place, but the place collapsed moments after I sold the book.
- [56:14]
Tracy Thomas
Got it.
- [56:14]
Justine Van der Lune
So the book was published by Rodale, which does men's health books.
- [56:17]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, yeah.
- [56:18]
Justine Van der Lune
So I had a dog memoir being published by a health publication. So I'm not really sure what happened to that book, but my friend drew the COVID and I don't know what was up. They didn't have a title even that made any sense. Nothing about that book made sense. And then my last book. Yes, I mean, that book, I just, I wrote everything you could possibly write. I don't think I got as much of a handle on the material. Even though I spent years doing it. I didn't. I just was like, oh, I'll write a book. Like, I didn't know what. I. I didn't have a concept in mind. And then my editor was like, looks good. And I was like, okay. You know, this time I'm like, I don't think so. Like, I don't think so. So I, I think I didn't know until after that. You need to. For me. I think for me at least that, that you need to be really. I wanted to be really unsparing. I was like, I just want, don't tell me that it's good, you know, like, don't let any. Don't, don't, don't push anything past. Like, I will change anything.
- [57:25]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I just have a few more questions. Do you have a few minutes?
- [57:29]
Justine Van der Lune
Of course. No, I love this. This is, like, such a joy to me. You're like, you might have something better to do than talk to somebody who loved your book and actually understands it about your book. I'm like, I'll make. I'll make the time.
- [57:40]
Tracy Thomas
Have you found that people are not understanding it? Like, have you gotten feedback where you're like, you missed it?
- [57:46]
Justine Van der Lune
No, I have found that mainstream media is very, very. I don't know. I don't. I can't tell you. What, is that what it is? They're scared of it?
- [57:56]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I mean, it's. It's a tough pitch.
- [57:58]
Justine Van der Lune
Well, I'm curious because I. I have found that, like, people get it. The Internet gets it. The people who read it really connect with it. And I've only gotten that feedback. I mean, you know, that's just. But then in terms of, like, anybody going there, even people who like to report on domestic violence or report on issues against women, it's almost as if there's not a space for women living on the margins with convictions, who aren't, say, an heiress or, you know, writing a dystopian tale, but are, like, real women who, you know. So that is where I find resistance. And it's not like they've read it. Just, like, give it a chance.
- [58:47]
Tracy Thomas
Well, you know, what you say in the. I think you said this in the book. Maybe you said it on the podcast. Because I read the book and then immediately listened to the podcast. Like, I was like, let me just get it. Like, let me just inject all of this. I think you say it in the book, which is, like, if you have to stop and sit and believe these women, what does it say about you, us as a society, et cetera? And I do think that that is part of what is difficult for institutions or, like, bigger. Because then, I mean, we know there's just, like, a lot of bad men in the world who have done bad things to women. Some, like, horrifically bad things, and then some sort of just, like, that's not great. Like. Like, the spectrum of, like, bad things.
- [59:39]
Justine Van der Lune
We should. Not. Wishes.
- [59:41]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Like, maybe don't talk to me like that. But I think, you know, if we're talking about institutions, they're oftentimes run by bad men. People who are abusive. Bad people, period. People who are in service to abusive behavior. And so I think, then you're asking them to, even if they wouldn't identify in that way. I think this book is sort of a confrontation in some regards to that. That would be my sense as to why. And also, again, it is a tough sell. Like, it's like, do you want to sit down and read a book about, like, really dark? I say yes, and I think you, dear listeners, should say yes. I don't think you'll be mad at me when you read this book. I know you won't, but I understand why places that don't do this kind of stuff and don't feel comfortable in. In the darker sides of what it means to be a human, especially in America, would be, like, cowardly in this regard.
- [60:42]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah. But then I think, you know, anyone who's lived anything of this is just like, oh, got it. Like, into it. And, like, the thing about the book is that. And this is not even tooting my own horn, but it is that, like, the women in it are so amazing. Like, you will love them, you will be rooting for them, and you will, I think, because this happened to me, really come out of the book. This sounds like a sales pitch. I'm not even trying to do it. But I think, you know, readers come out of the book like the way that when I reported on the Nikki Adamondo case, which is what the podcast that you listen to is about, I mean, I.
- [61:20]
Tracy Thomas
The podcast is called Believe Her.
- [61:22]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah. So the podcast is called Believe Her. And then, you know, my worldview turned upside down and my worldview turned upside down again and again with this book. But I. But I'm glad for it. Like, I think I understand things a lot more clearly, and I think that there are a lot of things that we live that we don't quite understand, like the context in which we're living. And I certainly got a lot of clarity looking at the context in which they're living for the context in which I also live. Because we live in the same world as well.
- [61:54]
Tracy Thomas
Same world.
- [61:54]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah.
- [61:55]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. This is like a real hard shift. But I have to get you on record, as I get everyone on record for some of these questions, which is, how do you like to write? How often? How many hours a day, music or no, in your home, out in the world, Snacks and beverages. That's important. Rituals, et cetera.
- [62:12]
Justine Van der Lune
I'm a silent writer. I cannot have a single sound. I know that apparently there's all these writers that write with TVs on.
- [62:20]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [62:20]
Justine Van der Lune
Impossible. No music, no TV, nothing.
- [62:25]
Tracy Thomas
At a desk, on the couch, in a bed.
- [62:28]
Justine Van der Lune
All those things.
- [62:29]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [62:30]
Justine Van der Lune
Any of those things. A lot of drinks. Not alcoholic drinks, but a Lot of coffee type drinks, various beverages at all times.
- [62:41]
Tracy Thomas
Can you say more about those? Like hot, cold, is it purchased, is it made at home? All.
- [62:48]
Justine Van der Lune
I mean, I really admire anyone who can sit down and write for hours and hours at a time. I would. One thing that I like really needed was to not have to get ready to go out because I have children. And so a big part of me being able to do anything would be making sure I didn't have to do the morning drop off because that would really mess up my day. Having to wash my face and put on makeup and get in clothes and walk and walk back, that would mess up. The best thing for me would be be to wake up and have coffee and go straight into writing. And so sometimes when I really needed to do something, I would leave my house and get an Airbnb and go for five days so that I could and buy like food that was made and just go live in this little one room Airbnb under some like guy's house. Well, like two men who are married. So it was very chic and stylish house. And I would like go under there with like all of these things and just spend like five days not really talking to anybody. And it was just a big part of being able to focus is no interruptions and not having to like arrive in the world for anybody and just being able to like have a little bed I sat on and wrote. Those are. That was when I really needed to get stuff done. I would do that. I did it a few times actually.
- [64:02]
Tracy Thomas
What about like your own mental health? In writing about things that are so difficult, especially knowing the people who survived these like abuses.
- [64:14]
Justine Van der Lune
I mean I have high immunity to all these things. Like I have very high immunity to like violence and whatever. I mean like I, I can't watch a horror movie at all. Like anyone.
- [64:23]
Tracy Thomas
You and I are the same.
- [64:25]
Justine Van der Lune
I'm so scared. Can't nothing, you know, but like when it comes to real life, like violence, I'm just like, sure. Like I, I just have like very high immunity to it. I sure I took a walk, you know. No, like, I think I was just kind of like unhinged for a few years, you know, and just was like sort of unhinged. Like I didn't really do anything. I didn't like do yoga, you know, I probably should have done yoga and breathing. But I was just like, I'm just completely obsessed with this, like these lives. And I'm just, I just did it and then I, I got burned out from it and Then I came back to it, and I don't feel burnt out from it anymore because I'm really, like, energized by their stories, and I just want the world to hear them. So. But, yeah, no, I was unhinged. I was unhinged for a while, and maybe still am. I don't know.
- [65:21]
Tracy Thomas
But, like, everyone who writes books sort of that are like this, that's always their answer of, like, well, I didn't do a great job.
- [65:29]
Justine Van der Lune
I went insane.
- [65:30]
Tracy Thomas
But I spent a lot of time with my therapist afterwards because I probably should have had some things in practice. But I do think it's different. Like, living these traumas are its own thing, but. But being the sort of, like, the sharer of someone else's story, there's, like, a responsibility. There's a lot of things that are different for you. Not that it's the same or, like, to compare, but just, like, it's a different level or different kind of traumatic experience in the, like, interpretation of the thing. Anyways, what's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?
- [66:07]
Justine Van der Lune
I'm bad at niece.
- [66:09]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, sure.
- [66:11]
Justine Van der Lune
What's a word you can't spell correctly?
- [66:13]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, I can't spell anything. I always say recommendation because I have to write it a lot, and I can never spell it correctly. But there's constantly words that I cannot spell correctly. That's how come I started asking this question. Because at a certain point, this podcast, I was like, I'm talking, like, at the beginning, I was just talking to my friends, and then event, like, really fancy authors, and I was like, I can't spell anything. I'm an idiot. And I think the first person I asked it to was Jason Reynolds. And then I just started asking everybody. His is restaurant. There's a whole restaurant club. It's him. It's Angelina Jolie.
- [66:47]
Justine Van der Lune
You talked to her, and she said restaurant. Oh, my God.
- [66:49]
Tracy Thomas
Restaurant. So did Quintino. There's, like, a. There's, like, a restaurant group of people, and Jason is in that club. Those are the three big ones that I remember. But I have a lot of trouble with multiple consonants. So, like, recommend, I can spell tomorrow. But that word comes up often. And then, like, sometimes it's. It'll be, like, a really specific word given that person's work. I can't remember someone, like, I don't know. And then a lot of times, like, Frenchy words like, what? Like Renaissance or something.
- [67:20]
Justine Van der Lune
Like, I probably can't spell Renaissance.
- [67:22]
Tracy Thomas
But, yeah, I only can thanks to Beyonce. But I. I think it I don't
- [67:26]
Justine Van der Lune
think I have to spell it. You know, that's why I'm often talking about Renaissance. I feel like I'm always like, N, I, E. And then I'm like, E, I. It's E. I. I don't now.
- [67:36]
Tracy Thomas
I don't.
- [67:36]
Justine Van der Lune
I think you're not the person.
- [67:38]
Tracy Thomas
I wouldn't know. No, I'm like a. I'm like a very bad speller. Another word I can never remember is Reich, like the Third Reich. But I. I'm like, what do you want, World War II? No, I hit the E and the.
- [67:53]
Justine Van der Lune
And Ian and I are a. Are. Even though there's other problems. Does that whole thing, but it's never the.
- [68:00]
Tracy Thomas
Every time that I need it, that thing, it's always the, oh, oops. It's not. It's like I before E except after C. But then it's like, oh, but sometimes also other words don't go in there. And there's no C. And I'm just like. Well, like, right, I before E. But is it right?
- [68:16]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah. Okay.
- [68:17]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, okay. See, like, it's like, I need it there. I need that rhyme. Don't have it I. And same with. Wait, what is niece, but N, E, I. Right.
- [68:29]
Justine Van der Lune
It's before C. Is there anyone who says I spell everything right? I don't have that issue.
- [68:33]
Tracy Thomas
So, yes, there are people who are like, I'm a very good speller.
- [68:36]
Justine Van der Lune
Okay.
- [68:36]
Tracy Thomas
And we usually boo them.
- [68:38]
Justine Van der Lune
Okay.
- [68:38]
Tracy Thomas
And then keep it moving. But also, like, there are some people that are good spellers when they say that. I'm like, of course you are.
- [68:45]
Justine Van der Lune
Okay.
- [68:46]
Tracy Thomas
Like, I get that vibe from you. And some people, like, I want my. My spelling be. Or they'll tell me the word that, you know, there's all sorts of rhythm.
- [68:54]
Justine Van der Lune
Was a. Was a. Was a word. I lost a. Spelling beyond rhythm is a hard one.
- [68:58]
Tracy Thomas
Also, you know, a word I can never spell that's very me is athlete. I'll add an extra E. I do like athlete instead of athlete.
- [69:08]
Justine Van der Lune
I think I would. I think I might personally identify as an athlete and not an athlete.
- [69:13]
Tracy Thomas
I identify as a person who can't spell it. So. Okay, last few questions. Last few questions. What comes next for you? Do you know?
- [69:24]
Justine Van der Lune
I do have another podcast that I'm finishing up, and I want to give this book the best shot it can have, you know, through the summer. So I'm going to be just working on that. I have an article coming out in a little bit on my last piece on criminalized survival. I swear, I'm not Going to do any more, right. Fast forward and then, no, I don't know. I. Then I have to think about what comes next. I have to figure it out.
- [69:49]
Tracy Thomas
And who's the coolest. Coolest, in your opinion, person who's expressed interest in this book?
- [69:58]
Justine Van der Lune
I am just a Brian Goldstone fan, and I did not know him before I sent him a copy of the book. And I hadn't read his book before I sent him a copy of the book because I don't like a hardcover. I like a paperback, to be honest.
- [70:11]
Tracy Thomas
I see.
- [70:14]
Justine Van der Lune
And I just thought it was the best. Like, it was so amazing. So when he actually liked my book, I've been really pleased about that. So I'm gonna call Brian Goldstone the coolest person.
- [70:30]
Tracy Thomas
I love this. We love Brian.
- [70:32]
Justine Van der Lune
I mean, Brian Goldstone. Like, cool guy. Like, really nice man. But also his book is so great. And I am thrilled that he. That he had some nice things to say about mine. His book. His book was like a horror book. I was like. I felt it was in a.
- [70:48]
Tracy Thomas
So intense. Your book was more intense for me.
- [70:51]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah, fair enough. Fair.
- [70:52]
Tracy Thomas
But his book was intense. His book was the exact edge of what I can just like, chill out in for years. You know, like. Like you were saying, like, you have like a high, like, tolerance for that stuff. So do I. Usually I can just like, like Roxanna's book. People like, oh, my God, how did you read that? I was like, I don't know. Quickly. I liked it.
- [71:08]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah. Well, speaking of Natasha Lehrer, she did also a book called Consent.
- [71:13]
Tracy Thomas
Did you read that memoir, Jill, The Jill Cement book?
- [71:16]
Justine Van der Lune
No, Jill Cemented an English Consent. There was a French translation. I'm actually Vanessa Springora is the author. It's a memoir of, like, she was, you know, abused by another abuse memoir that Natasha Lehrer, but she was, like, abused by, like, a director or something when she was like, in her teens as a young actress. And she wrote it. And I was like, breezy, like, you know, easy peasy, like, great read. And my friend said, like, that she had read it and couldn't recover for, you know.
- [71:46]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [71:46]
Justine Van der Lune
Date. I was like, well, don't read Sad Tiger then. I don't think that's.
- [71:49]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [71:49]
Justine Van der Lune
For you. But that. That I was like, this is a read, you know.
- [71:54]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I know. I don't. I generally don't trust myself unless I have like, a. I only communicate my reaction if it's like a. It was hard for me because I sense that people don't have the tolerance that you and I have. But again, I can't do a horror movie either.
- [72:09]
Justine Van der Lune
I can't do a horror movie.
- [72:10]
Tracy Thomas
I'm scared. I can't do a horror book. I can't do anything scary. I can only do horrible. I can do real life horror, but I can't do fictional horror.
- [72:21]
Justine Van der Lune
The Bloody Mary, like, messed me up for a long time. I saw, like, Freddy or whatever it is once, like, out of the corner of my eye. I didn't recover for a long time.
- [72:30]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [72:31]
Justine Van der Lune
But if you want to tell me about a horrible crime committed, I'm like, yes. Can I take the pictures?
- [72:36]
Tracy Thomas
I'm like, the worst things that have ever happened, I'm available. But the worst things that you imagined not.
- [72:40]
Justine Van der Lune
No, no. Terrified.
- [72:42]
Tracy Thomas
For people who love this book, what are some other books that you would recommend that are in conversation?
- [72:48]
Justine Van der Lune
So, you know, I think Roxanna's book, We Were Once a Family. I think Brian's book, there's no place for us. Of course, the greatest nonfiction book of all time, Random Family. You know who I really loved and was really influenced by was Svetlana Alexevich.
- [73:10]
Tracy Thomas
Not the oral historian.
- [73:12]
Justine Van der Lune
Yeah. Because she really does her own thing. Like, she's not really writing journalism. She has a new take on it. She was, you know, she. She uses the oral histories, but she says that they're not real, they're not false. They're just. I think they are real. And I was really inspired by that kind of freedom, like Saidiya Hartman and that idea. I didn't do what they did, but I was really inspired by writers who didn't follow all the rules in part because following them would have taken away from the story. So those were kind of my idols that I was looking up to a little bit.
- [73:53]
Tracy Thomas
I love that last one. If you could have one person, dead or alive, read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [74:02]
Justine Van der Lune
So maybe I'll regret this answer, but I don't think so. What comes to mind is that when I was in high school, I was. And this is such a weird answer, but it is true. So when I was in high school, I. And I don't think he would be able to read this book, but still, I would be so amazed if he did. I was obsessed with the poet W.S. merwin.
- [74:22]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [74:24]
Justine Van der Lune
And I wrote to him. I found his letter, his P.O. box in Hawaii. And I wrote him a letter telling him how much I loved his poetry. And then he wrote me a. Like a long letter back by hand. And he said, I can tell from the way that you write that You're a person for whom poems are written. I was like 17. Can you imagine getting that from your favorite poet? And he wrote this beautiful letter to me. Like, he really sat down and wrote it by hand. And he was my idol and I framed it and I still have it. And so I'm not sure that unreasonable woman would be for him. He has since passed on, but it would be pretty great to tell him I wrote this thing, I wrote this book that I think is really important. And Mr. Merwin, thank you for your letter five years ago because I am just in my mid-20s, so.
- [75:15]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, obviously.
- [75:15]
Justine Van der Lune
Obviously.
- [75:17]
Tracy Thomas
Justine, this was so great. Everybody at home, you can get your copy of Unreasonable Women wherever you get your books. As you heard, Justine narrates the audiobook. I have not listened to it, so I can't vouch, but you have a lovely voice, so I'm sure you did a great job. I was a. I was off. I was an off the page girly on this one. But I think however you can get to the book, however works best for you, you should do that. I think you should definitely read it. This is one of the ones that gets like the little gold star from. So please read this book. Justine, thank you so much for being here.
- [75:52]
Justine Van der Lune
It has been a true privilege. Thank you for having me on the stacks, Tracy.
- [75:56]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y', all, thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Justine Van der Lune for joining the show. And I'd like to say a big thank you you to Lizzie Breyer Bowman for helping to make this episode possible. Our book club pick for June is the Alchemist by Paolo Coelho. And we will discuss the book with Mary HK Joy on Wednesday, June 24th. If you love the Stacks and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com thestax to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com Please take a moment right now to make sure that you are actually subscribed to this podcast. Wherever are you, you are listening to this podcast. And if you are listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, take a moment to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, you can follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads, and now we're on YouTube and you can check out our website atthestacks podcast.com Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian D. With production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Sheree Marquez and our theme music is from Tagirajis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.
- [77:13]
Justine Van der Lune
Support for this podcast comes from Progressive,
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Tracy Thomas
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