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I do think that there are still pockets of trade nonfiction that is still also focused on audience. There's an unfortunate tendency to think to ourselves that the author has to be a stand in for the reader and that if we are learning something new, we're supposed to be like the discoverer, the anthropologist and like going into these books, you know, and it's, it's like dipping your toe and making it easy for a group of people to interact with something different rather than just like expecting that they, they can, right?
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B
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas and today we are joined by Book Essence editor Juliana Hobner. Juliana is an executive editor at Flatiron Books where she acquires narrative, nonfiction, history, pop culture and social science books. She's worked with authors like Sophia Bush, Garrett M. Graff and Haley Cohen Gilliland and has acquired a number of best selling titles including two Pulitzer Prize finalists. We're chatting today about what exactly editors do, her taste in books and the ever shifting landscape of narrative non fiction. The Stacks Book Club pick for July is behind the Beautiful Forevers by Katherine Boo, which we will discuss with Juliana on Wednesday, July 29. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show notes. And if you like this podcast and want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked over on Substack. Each place offers different perks. You can find community conversation and virtual book clubs over on Patreon and then you'll get my writing and hot takes on the latest literary and pop culture news over on Substack. Plus, your support makes it possible for me to make the Stacks every single week and to make it free to all. To join, go to patreon.com the stacks for the stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com all right, now it is time for my conversation with Juliana Hoppner. All right everybody, I'm so excited. Today I am joined by Juliana Hobner who is an editor, a book editor. And she's not just any book editor. She is actually the editor of some of my most favorite nonfiction books over the last few years. You know her, you might know her work. She was the editor of A Flower Traveled in My Blood, which we featured here on the podcast. She's also friend of the show, Garrett M. Graph's editor, or formerly was Garrett's editor. She was at Avid Reader Press. Now she's at Flatiron Books. Juliana, welcome to the stack.
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A
Thank you for having me. Thrilled to be here.
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B
I'm so excited. I'm so, so excited. Before we even get into, like, what is an editor? Which we're going to get into, will you just tell us a little bit about yourself? Where are you from? When do you remember getting into books? What is your relationship sort of to books? Give us a little backstory.
- [03:34]
A
Yeah. So I. I grew up in a suburb right outside of New York City. And I, like many in my field, was always a big reader growing up. But I think I had a really kind of intimate relationship with storytelling and books. Cause I was raised by a bunch of educators, so I knew a lot about just the ins and outs of how books worked and how they came into play in your life. And it was entertainment, but it was also education, which I think looking back kind of actually is maybe why the nonfiction thing happened. I always saw them as something to participate with and to learn from. When I was little, my grandmother used to read picture books to me and used to kind of also go for the books that didn't have words in it. And she'd let me make my own stories on Post it Notes. So I always really loved just the interaction that you have with a book. Went through high school, really loved reading, kind of recreationally, loved to write, loved English classes. Went to a small college in Maine where I was an English and history double major. And then also did stuff for the newspaper, the lit mag, kind of all the traditional extracurriculars that you have. And that's in that space. And then when I was kind of older, in college, I started doing some internships in publishing. I had a really amazing professor who was a trade nonfiction author. Her name was Teilar Matso. And she is still publishing books left and right. She's amazing. And she taught this class that was Comparative lit in the 21st century. And it was all that year's award winners. So it was the winner of the Nobel, it was the winner of the Pulitzer, the winner of the National Book Award. All fiction, but the whole Point of the class was to really dig into what the culture, what was happening in the culture at the time that these books kind of rose to the top in the awards capacity. And I think it was out Stealing Horses was one of them. I want to say that was the Nobel. It was the marriage plot by Geoffrey Eugenides, Wolf hall and a couple others. But so it was really thinking critically and culturally about what was going on that judges for these awards felt they were representative of the moment that we were living in. And I loved that class and I spent a lot of time with tlr and I was like, what if I can I write my senior thesis on bestsellers instead of diving into an author or kind of doing the traditional route of looking at a classic or something like that. And she was Super Game, which was amazing. And so I wrote my senior thesis on the longest running bestsellers of the 2000s. And what they said about us, what were they? So they were Gone Girl, the first Game of Thrones book. Okay, World War Z. Okay, the Alchemist. But that was sort of the counterpoint.
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B
Okay.
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A
And then. Oh, man. There was one other. Oh, Fifty Shades.
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B
Oh, my gosh.
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A
So.
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B
Wow. Oh, my gosh. Okay. At least the Alchemist, Gone Girl, and Fifty Shades say, we hate women.
- [06:46]
A
We hate women. It was like my whole argument. And I found it recently and I was like, doing this in such a. It's hilarious. Now in my job to understand, like, the resources I have and the kind of databases, I have to understand this better. Like, I had no bookscan as a college student. I didn't have anything to like, actually, like, really interrogate this beyond just like the New York Times Book Review and A Prayer. And I like going back, like, reading it now. I was like, oh, my God, you sweet story, sweet child. But. But I basically like, came to the conclusion that it was all like, different forms of terrorism post 9 11. So gone girl is like marital, you know, terrorism in some ways. World War Z with biological terrorism, fifty Shades. It's like, you know, sexual terrorism, all these different things. And I thought I was a genius. I love this.
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B
I love this.
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A
Yeah. And it was. It was like a. Hilarious. I mean, all my friends were like, what are. I was like reading 50 Shades in my dorm room. Everybody was like, what are you. I like post its in it. People were like, what are you doing?
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B
Right.
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A
And so I was working in. I was interning in publishing kind of at the same time. And I had really wanted. Part of the reason, I think I also did that thesis was I really had wanted to be someone who was like an arts journalist and worked for the Book Review and kind of was in that space. And then when I was graduating in 2014, it was a period of time where a lot of newspapers were going digital. It was just sort of not clear where those things were going to be going. And I was introduced to the notion that, like, the publishing apparatus could be something that was like an alternative to that. I knew that I was like, not built for freelance as a postgrad. So I was like, corporate is totally fine. And so I went to the Columbia Publishing course, which is a program in New York that does both book and magazine and now digital publishing and kind of gives you the lay of the land. And then ended up at Simon and Schuster at the end of September 2014 and was there for the flagship imprint. I was there for almost six years and then was working for an editor who became one of the founding editors of App Reader Press. So when they created that, they asked me to come with them and was there through the end of 2014 and had a really wonderful decade.
- [09:02]
B
2024.
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A
24. Oh my God. 2014. 2024. And had a really wonderful decade there. And got an opportunity at Flatiron and was excited to kind of try something new, but worked on such incredible books over at Avid like Garrett's and Haley's, and really got into. It was really great to be at Simon and Schuster with such a strong tradition of narrative nonfiction. You know, the place that has Doris Kearns Goodwin and Bob Woodward and David McCullough and sort of all of these books that I had really loved because I was like a total dad book reader as a.
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B
Yes, that's why We get along is
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A
a 20 year old college student ordering Doris Kearns Goodwin to my dorm room. So it was really great to kind of grow up in that. In that editorial framework and to understand so much about it and to be around all these amazing editors like Alice Mayhew was at Simon and Schuster when I was kind of coming up there. Bob Bender, people who have just been such a cornerstone of that segment of the business and to watch them work and understand how they did their jobs and. And what I could learn, even just by watching, was like such a gift. And. And yeah, now I'm here just still doing dad books kind of a little bit.
- [10:15]
B
Yeah. I'm so like, you give me hope because you're younger than me, but you're doing dad books that like dad books will continue. Because sometimes I have these like, anxious fears of like, no one's going to write the books I want to write because I'm too much online and everyone only reads fiction online, which I do want to talk about. But I'm like, Juliana is a reminder that there are still people who to make dad books for people like me. Okay, here's my first question. It's a big one, but I think you can handle it. Yeah.
- [10:47]
A
Okay.
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B
What is an editor? What do you do?
- [10:51]
A
So it's funny because I have always thought of my job. I mean, my job is to edit. Like I edit books. That is definitely the most first, important, foremost thing that we do. But really what the editorial job writ larges that I think a lot of people don't necessarily or immediately understand is it's really a ton of project management. It is some we are handling, you know, depending on where you are and kind of what size of your list and the imprint you're at, you're working on multiple projects at a time. You're really, you know, the center conductor for all these different departments in the imprint and in your team to put these projects together. So you're not only editing a book when it's in manuscript script form, but you're also monitoring, you know, stuff that's in production. You're looking at stuff that is pre publication and marketing and publicity have taken over in some capacities and are forming campaigns. You're communicating with authors when they're thinking about their next book. You know, you're really at every stage of the process and it's a lot of switchboarding. It's a lot of knowing immediately where everything is. It's a lot of spreadsheets. I love spreadsheets. So there's a lot of spreadsheets, which
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B
is also why we get a lot.
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A
Yes, it's a very. I mean, I'm a cancer, but it's like a very Virgo job that people should be. Should be doing, doing. And it's a lot of interfacing with a lot of different types of people. I think there's sort of a misconception that we in this job are all introverts and that we are sitting in a room by ourselves, like reading all day or editing all day. And we do do that when we kind of have the opportunity during the workday. But much of the workday is like any other job that is kind of an inter team and dealing with internal and external partners and stakeholders. You know, I'm on run calls all day. We are in meetings. We're talking about jackets, we're talking about campaign ideas for marketing, we're talking about how to announce a book. We're talking about acquisitions. So there's really a whole universe of stuff that we, that we are doing. And then we also edit, which is kind of amazing.
- [13:02]
B
How many books are you working on at a given time? I know a few years ago I talked to a different editor and they said something about like 12 in, 12 out.
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A
That's about right, I would say, because you are.
- [13:14]
B
For people at home, that means you acquire 12 books in a year. And you, you are the editor on 12 books that are published in a year. Obviously, if somebody's late, maybe it's 11 and then one year it's 13 or whatever. But like, generally you're acquiring 12 and editing 12.
- [13:30]
A
Yeah, I would say it's like between 8 to 12 on either side of that spectrum. Because sometimes, you know, you've got bigger projects that are taking a lot of bandwidth. So your acquisitions might be like, you know, lower or higher, whatever, any point. But yeah, I'm usually doing about 8 to 12 at A. And that is both paperback and hardcover. Because usually there used to be in the way olden days of publishing, there was sort of the separate entities of hardcover and paperback publishing. Now, you know, a lot of imprints and a lot of houses do both under the same umbrella. So, yeah, I'm looking at stuff that I am publishing in what we call front list, which is like new to market hardcover or even trade paperback originals, and also backlist, which is. Which is the paperback infrastructure. So, yeah, there's quite a few at any given time. And they're all at the different stages. So, you know, for example, right now I'm editing. I'm at different editorial and developmental stages of about six to seven books. I have one that came out this spring and then a couple that are in production coming out in the fall. So, like, it's always sort of. You're always on one part of the track at any different time.
- [14:42]
B
Right. So like, your job is sort of, from what I'm. What I'm understanding is like sort of three jobs. You're in charge of like, you're in charge of like, acquisitions, new things coming in. You're in charge of actually editing and shaping the book, like quality control. And then you're also in charge of like, putting the product into the world.
- [15:03]
A
Exactly. And. And it's story.
- [15:05]
B
And obviously there's different people who do those jobs with you. But like, you are the project manager on all three phases of a book as long as you stay at the publishing house or whatever. Like as Long as you're there and that's your book, you do acquisition stuff, editorial stuff, and also, like, marketing stuff.
- [15:25]
A
Yeah, so we. We delegate out to the other to, you know, we let our really, really brilliant colleagues kind of take over, but we. We're the ones. Just because we've had the most sort of consistent touch on it, we often. Yeah, we're like. We're always, like, in the room, but once it is something outside of our spot, like, you know, our. Our team takes it over for us, but it's always like three, like you were saying, kind of groups of people. So it's like at acquisitions, like, we're interfacing with agents. At development, it's, you know, we talk to authors, and then we have our own, like, internal team that we're talking to, and that includes marketing, publicity, sales, art, design, sub rights. So we're kind of just. We're kind of always just there. But. But we luckily don't have to always do everything, but we're always kind of
- [16:12]
B
aware of what's going on as far as the editorial process goes. And I know that lots of people have this question, mainly because for some of my listeners, I have incepted them on this idea, I think, which is, like, sometimes I read a book and I'm like, that was bad, and the author is to blame. And sometimes I read a book and I'm like, that was bad and the editor failed. And sometimes I read a book and I'm like, that book could have been really bad, but the editor clearly helped the book. And sometimes I'm like, an author is a genius. And like, how did they come up with that? And, like, what a lucky editor to have such a great author. So, my. But I just. That's all based on vibes from my reading life. And I think for a lot of readers who aren't as, like, plugged into the writing world, they're never thinking about the editor's hand in a book. They're thinking, this book is by Tracy Thomas. She wrote it. It's her thing. I now know how many people's hands are in the pot, but how deeply collaborative the relationship can be between an editor and an author. So I'm wondering, how do we, as readers know what you've done, what the editor is doing? Like, how do. How can we know if the editor failed or the author failed? And obviously it's not black and white, but, like, how do we know?
- [17:33]
A
So the goal is that you never do kind of. I mean, I think one thing. So for me, personally, I. It's interesting because there's a lot of people in publishing who also write and I though I enjoy writing, I never like, wanted to be a writer. So I think I also brought a separate framework of that. Like, I could view it very independent of my own tendencies to and like what I would do with something though I am like a hands on editor and I'm happy to tell my writers when like I'm suggesting a direction or suggesting things, but it really is a role that you need to be okay. And you enjoy the fact that you are kind of behind the curtain. And I think that a reader, I would hope that a reader could tell that I've been involved if they're even thinking of me. And I think it's also just like something for like a lot of editors are like, I'm not in it. I'm not a part of the equation here. But I think the best compliment I can get from someone is that they really felt engaged and absorbed in the story. And I think that editors are additive in that space because especially in nonfiction, I am someone who comes to the process as a fresh set of eyes. You know, I've worked with journalists who have been working on stories for multiple years and researching and reporting and historians who have spent a lot of time digging into content and they know everything about everything. And I view. It's funny that you said earlier sort of that in the in house and interactive infrastructure, we're kind of the translator. Because I've also always said that I feel like I'm a translator between author and reader, that I can sort of stand in as a general reader coming to a book and saying we're going a little off track here or we haven't really gotten to know these characters or the story in a deeper way. So I think that maybe clarity is the biggest thing that like an editor can, can bring and that I would hope that readers recognize is that there's someone who's just there amplifying whatever the author is already good at. And I think that in the different books that I've worked on, I've been, as I said, extremely lucky to work with some pretty fantastic authors. And everything that I have contributed in the capacity I have was really in the headspace of maximizing what they already did so well. And I think that that's like, I think there's a reason that there's a lot of. There's like a pipeline it seems, which is also why you and I get along of like, there's like a lot of theater Kids in publishing, there's a lot of people who played on teams. There's. It's just like, it's a very kind of similar headspace we all have of understanding that, like, sometimes it's not always about, like, our exact presence in the process. And I think that it's something that, like, everyone brings together. And especially when you work with people, you work with writers for a bunch of different books. Like, I learn just as much from my authors as they may pick up from going through my edits a bunch of times. And I've had authors who have said to me, like, I now do this a little differently. Cause I know you'll catch it. You know, like, so it's sort of a fluid back and forth thing that we both kind of get to learn from and participate in. But the long and the short answer is we're sort of meant to be invisible. But the sort of ability to just make something really exciting for a reader. And I think in any capacity, we're really trying to work on books and do work on books that we just really care about. So I think that, like, when there's care taken from every part of it, from like title and packaging to copy to the way the book is reading, that's our handprint is to just kind of show how much we love it and why you should love it too.
- [21:50]
B
Do you ever read a book? Not something that you're reading for work? Have you ever read a book? Have I ever read a book?
- [21:55]
A
I actually can't.
- [21:57]
B
I don't know how to read. Have you ever read a book, like, for pleasure, now that you're in your job and been like, wow, if they had just like put the ending first or whatever, this book would have been amazing. Like, are you. Are you reading with an editor brain on all the time now?
- [22:15]
A
Sometimes it happens more with books. I. Because it's a very weird experience to. Because I read in like, kind of two separate tracks now. It's like, I read stuff that are either classics or they're. And I will say one of my hot takes is there are nonfiction classics. Classics are not just novels. And they.
- [22:38]
B
There's just a lot less old ones.
- [22:39]
A
There's a lot less old ones, but they. So, like, I can read those books and books maybe from like eight years ago and backward with that not turned on in my brain at all because, like, it almost feels like it's like pre. Me having that brain. Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And when I read. When I read new stuff, most of the time I actually don't. It's only really when I, like, saw a book on submission and I read just being like, because. Because we see books most of the time with nonfiction, the majority of the time we're getting a proposal for a book. We're not getting a full manuscript the way that it works on the fiction side. So I more am interested in, like, how these things got built out. And there is a little bit more of a development. It's also like, why I. I mean, fiction editors do a ton of development with their writers too. But I. I loved that in nonfiction, I could kind of be on the ground floor a little more in helping somebody shape something.
- [23:37]
B
Right. Right.
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A
So, yeah, so it's just. It's more. It's less of a. Like, I wouldn't have done that. It's more of like a. I didn't think to do that or. That's a really actually like, interesting way they did this.
- [23:48]
B
You're so much more diplomatic than me. I would be like, yeah, there were some books that I read that fucking sucked. Sucked. And I was like, if you just move this or cut this, the book would have been great. But I guess you have to be more polite than me. Okay, this is. This might be touchy. We'll see.
- [24:03]
A
Okay, we'll see.
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B
What is. So, one of the things I hear a lot from writers and authors is like, this whole thing about sales and social media and having an opportunity to make a second book and all of these things. But I also hear this other piece that's like, well, you want an editor and an agent who are like, sort of invested in your career as an author. And like, maybe they don't care that your first book doesn't do great and like, it just does fine or maybe even like less than fine because they believe in you. So I'm wondering from your perspective, like, what does success look like to you for a debut author or an author earlier in their career?
- [24:46]
A
Yeah, it depends on the book. And that's like maybe sort of a non answer answer. But it really depends on what it is because I can speak for myself, but every time I acquire a project, obviously the goal is as many people as humanly possible read this book. It would be amazing if everything hits a bestseller list, if everything has accolades, et cetera, et cetera. But success does look different for everybody type of project. You know, you have books that you read that you have projects that come in and you read them and acquire them that you are thinking to yourself, yes, this is like a commercial project that, like, we know can do x Y and Z. Some stuff comes in that you're like, yep, this is like the critical darling of a season. This is another book. Is there isn't a book about this topic or about, you know, this person. And this will be the book that when people are searching for something about this, they will find. And it's a steady backlist opportunity. So success has a lot of different forms in terms of kind of long term trajectory, I think I love the idea. Some books I know it's going to be like a one and done. And actually there haven't been that many of them that I've had in my career, luckily. But I think I go into every interaction at acquisition thinking to myself, you know, this is a partner. This is going to be a partnership if we do this. And sometimes it does take a book or two to hit a stride. And I think that it's really important to have that stamina and to have that vision not only for the book that's in front of you, but for the person and the partnership that's in front of you. And I think that really I'm trying to think if there's any immediate examples coming to mind, but I see stuff in the market all the time. I mean, look at. I mean, I did not work with him, but you know, Michael Finkel and the Art Thief. I mean that, that is like not a debut. That is multiple books in. And I think that all it takes, especially with nonfiction. And I think there is a parallel in fiction too. But in nonfiction it's just like. It's just the right story lands with somebody and I and the person digs up the right direction and the right weird person in history or in our current climate, and it just works. I mean, Patrick Rodney, I was gonna
- [27:10]
B
say Patrick Radden Keefe is the one for me that I think of all the time because he had two books before say Nothing but like it wasn't until say nothing and that and not even when that came out. It wasn't until the New York Times put it on their 10 best year that it really like. I mean people had read it, but it popped off in a way after that that was not necessarily like. Now we think of him as like Patrick Radden Keefe, like, you know, my boyfriend. But he wasn't that before.
- [27:41]
A
Well, it's. And I think too that like it's. It's what I was saying before too that like all of it is a learning experience too. You know, like debut writers go through writing a first book and they don't always like, there's things that are learned between those projects that really kind of are additive that just make them hit their stride in a different way, too. So I think it's. You need to and should be. And I think a lot of us go into it being very invested in the idea that, like, there can and should be many. And what you're reading on the page of a proposal and of a book eventually is also the writing. I mean, you can have the best story in the world, and if that person doesn't. Doesn't have, like, the talent or the skills within their writing to really captivate you, the story doesn't mean anything. So if you recognize that talent and that capability in a writer, you are aware that they can do it again and again.
- [28:41]
B
So that's the thing that's, like, sort of more exciting for you is, like, the writing.
- [28:46]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think, too, that, like, with nonfiction, it's a really kind of, like, special alchemy of somebody who can balance writing, reporting, research, storytelling. You know, like, I think the person who can really adjust that and dial certain parts of it up or down for people. You know, Haley does it beautifully. A flower traveled in her blood. Like, you know, it's sort of these breaks of deep history, but then such personal, human, forward action. And, you know, Garrett does it really amazingly, too. Like, I think there's. There's just something in the way that they write that you read it, and you're like, oh, this. Like, this person just has their hands on every piece of this story in a really amazing way.
- [29:37]
B
Okay, I have one more question for you before we, like, switch to your taste in books. And this is, I think, like, kind of a big one and kind of a hard one. So we'll see how we do.
- [29:43]
A
Yeah.
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B
You and I both really love narrative nonfiction.
- [29:47]
A
Yes.
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B
Like, we. We share a love for the same kind of books. Like, Julian and I have very similar taste. You skew slightly more history than I do. I would say I probably lean a little more like True Crime Cult than you do. But generally, people behaving badly, major, major bad things we're into.
- [30:10]
A
Yes.
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B
One of the things that I've run up against in the work that I do is that so few authors of color are given the opportunity to write the kinds of books that you and I like. Usually when I read a book by a black author that's in kind of in this space, it's often, like, very personal, narrative heavy, or. Or just, like, it'll be a book about black people, but it'll be written by a white person. And so I'm wondering from your standpoint, like, what do you think is going on? Because it's not as if, you know, people of color can't write these stories and it's also not as if they don't want to. But every year we're sort of presented with like a Martin Luther King biography written by a white man or a James Baldwin biography written by a white man. And that's not to say that these people cannot write our stories, but I'm just curious, like, what's happening that we're not getting them? What's your sense?
- [31:04]
A
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, it's something I think about all the time because I, I mean, aside from my, my dad book proclivity, you know, one of, one of my major and I promise I'll come. It's going to seem like I'm going to, I'm coming back to it. But one of my big, one of my big goals in my work is also widening the aperture of women in nonfiction, not only author wise, but readership. Because I do think there's a massive readership in women as evidenced by the two of us on this call that
- [31:38]
B
like two of us, massive, massive audience.
- [31:41]
A
But the two of like, I think that they're, that it's a very like in some ways untapped community within the narrative nonfiction space. And I think a lot about books about women that are like also written by men. And I'm like, this is weird, but I think what it is is I've noticed that a lot of them, that books like the ones you mentioned, you know, those are, they're career authors, which I think offers a level of privilege and notoriety and supposed authority that they can tackle these big subjects. I also have to wonder if on some level it's almost like an access thing as well, of who's being given, who's being given access to these archives, to these, you know, large university libraries, to, you know, these infrastructures that can, that can help them get whatever new material is necessary to, you know, to create these big, these big new takes or even even just generalized nonfiction not even like the big biographies. And I'm not sure it's something I grapple with and I'm really not sure why, because I do believe that there is, it's, it's just a very different and more intimate and more in my opinion, interesting experience to read a book about a certain, you know, person or place or community that is born of that community or place. You Know, like, I think there's so much more detail and things. And I think I believe strongly, as I said, in, like, reading for education and reading for a widening of perspective. And I think that if you're not reading as, like, I think it's important to read about things that are, like, different from you, but I also think you should read people who are different from you as well, because there's just things that get picked up differently. I wish I had, like, a firm. A firm answer.
- [33:46]
B
I don't think there is a firm answer, but I feel like you're closer to a lot of this than I have my own theories. One of which is just like, I think sometimes when people are from the communities of which they write, there's, like, a feeling that they should weigh in in a way when they're, like, from quote, unquote, marginalized backgrounds in a way that, like, white male authority doesn't have to have an opinion because it's the true authority. You know what I mean? Like, so there's not the, like, memoir fication of everything when it comes to men and white men specifically. I also think the, like, journalistic idea of bias that is, like, so prevalent, I think sometimes negates the work of authors of color because people like, oh, well, this is biased. Whereas, like. And this is no shade at an author whose book I love. But, like, nobody says, like, Brian Goldstone is biased when he's writing a book about black people who are homeless in Atlanta. But if another author had written that, a black author from Atlanta would be like, well, they're from this place. Or, like, there's, like, this thing that sort of undermines. And I mean, this quote unquote thing is, like, racism. I don't know why I called it a thing. Like, it was unnamed. And then I also think, like, yeah, and I think to your point, like, a lot of people are like career journalists, and so they get the opportunity. But I just. I hate it. I mean, Isabel Wilkerson is a black woman who wrote the shit out of the war. The mother signs, like, I know we could do it. It's not a matter of, you know, it's like, clearly something's going on on the side on, like, the business side of it. It's not about, like, the talent side of it.
- [35:19]
A
Yeah, and I think that. I think publishing, you know, in particular, you know, there's obviously a lot of pockets of publishing, but I think trade book publishing especially, you know, we're all, for the most part, of course, the last few years have made Doing the job. Not in New York possible, but it's still a New York, you know, centered industry. I do think that there are still pockets of trade nonfiction in particular that is still also focused on audience and you know, like the dad book thing, like who are the dads that we're talking about when we talk about dads? And so it is, it is also like that they, that there is a, there's an unfortunate tendency to think to ourselves that the author has to be a stand in for the reader. That a reader has to be able to relate to an author moving through a subject, going into a topic or a place or a community. And that if we are learning something new, that means that we have to be kind of in that position of like. And I hate this word because it's probably very loaded to. But like, it's like, it's like almost like, you know, we're supposed to be like the discoverer or the anthropologist and like going into these books. And I think, I think that's another layer of it that just who we
- [36:47]
B
are, who we think we being, like publishing who publishing.
- [36:51]
A
Who publishing is automatically defaulting to thinking that they're publishing for is a very specific group of people rather than realizing that like they're. And I think like it's something that we discuss all the time that people are really, I think doing a lot of really amazing work to try to do differently. But I think traditionally that's also been the issue is thinking to yourselves as well, like, and even like retailers, reviewers, like, it's just what are these traditional thoughts of like who the target audience is and, and, and maybe part of what you were saying about it being then having to be so hyper personalized or a memoir element is that idea that you are like trying to learn about someone else rather than just going into it, you know, and it's, it's like dipping your toe and making it easy for a group of people to interact with something different rather than just like expecting that they, they can.
- [37:45]
B
Right, right, right, right. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be right back. Have a business idea, but don't know where to start. I know the feeling. I was there when I first started this very podcast. I quickly realized it required way more than interviewing authors. And just like reading some books, there were scripts to write, brand assets to create, and eventually merch to sell. Luckily, by the time I was ready to sell, I had already discovered Shopify. If you've been sitting on a business idea, just know that Shopify makes it easy to bring it to life and start selling. Shopify Checkout makes shopping a breeze for your customers, offering a secure place for them to enter their information and easily complete their purchase. The process is even smoother after their first order. When they come back, their details are already saved, so they're only one tap away from securing a shipping shiny new item or a comfy new sweatshirt in the case of the Stacks. And since Shopify handles setup and checkout, you can focus on what you do best growing your business with Shopify. Nothing stands between your idea and a real business, so go make it one. Start your free trial at shopify.com the stacks that's shopify.com the stacks hello hello. We are in the midst of summer, which is my favorite season and also a very fun season over here at the Stacks. As always, we are bringing you a ton of great new reads, author interviews and behind the scenes bookish gossip and chit chat. But if you find yourself craving a little more, consider supporting us on Patreon and Substack as well. On Patreon, which is our community focused bonus content hub, you can join our virtual book club. You can be part of our private discord. You can read with us for our year long mega reading challenge. Plus there are monthly bonus episodes over on Substack. You can subscribe to my newsletter Unstacked where I give my hot takes on books and pop culture and sports and food and whatever else I want on both the Patreon and the Substack. You also have access to my non fiction reading guide but it only is available through the end of summer so make sure you subscribe now to either Patreon or Substack or both to get access to that. And if you don't have a few dollars to spare right now, don't worry, there are free options on Patreon and Substack so you can keep up with the goings on around here. Making this podcast is a huge team effort and by supporting my Patreon and Substack you allow me to support my team so we can all continue to work together doing what we do best which is bringing you Bookish content this very podcast. So if you or your friends are looking to meet other Bookish people, support an independent podcast, Come hang out with me, Patreon Substack or both. Go to patreon.com thestacks and Tracy thomas.substack.com and we will see you in the stacks. We're back. I didn't prep you for this, but this is Ask the Stacks, where someone writes an email and asks for a book recommendation. Okay. And coincidentally, though, I didn't. I should have planned it this way, but I didn't. When the last question we were talking about, about authors in color and like narrative nonfiction, this question actually ties into that. So this is from Jessica and they say, I'm a big fan of the Stacks. Shout out to my friend Sharon for inviting me to the live show in Chicago with Sam Irby and getting me hooked. One of the things I love about listening is that I read almost entirely fiction. And I get to learn about nonfiction books and hear from their authors in a way that can feel like less pressure than reading a whole book. I've started listening to audiobooks for the first time recently and made space for nonfiction that way. I have loved a lot of your recommendations. Madness. There is no place for us. Bad company. We were once a family. Do you have recommendations for more books by authors of color, especially black authors that have the same combination of deeply reported and telling individual stories? I have three here. And then if you want. And I can go. And then you can go. You only have to do one. Okay. So the first one is not by a black person. The second two are. But the first one is Random Family by Adrienne Nicole LeBlanc. I have not read this book, but every journalist I know, I know I. I own it. I own it. Every journalist I know who I have loved on this show, from Brian Goldstone to Andrea Elliott to Roxanna Asgarian to just recently, Justine Van Der. They all are like, this is the gold standard of that kind of book. So if you want that kind of book, it's about a black family, I believe, in the Bronx. Did I make that up in the Bronx? And I think this is the book that you want. It's by a woman, but she's not black. That's what I have now. My second book just actually came to me while we were having this last conversation is Tell Her Story by lashawn Harris. It is about Eleanor Bumpers, who is the grandmother in the Bronx who was killed by the police in the 1980s for about $90 of unpaid back rent. And it was one of the early sort of like, say her name type events in the 80s, similar to Michael Stewart. And it is. LaShawn Harris is a historian, a black woman historian from the Bronx who was 10 years old when this event took place. So this is really an. And this book is about, as you know, non biased as far as, like, there's no there's not a lot of memoir she mentions in the introduction. This is where I was. But she's not giving you her personal story. This is a true historian writing. It's very narrative. It's an incredible story. A lot of people don't know it, so I highly recommend that. And then my third and final is When Crack Was King by Donovan X. Ramsey, which follows four, I believe, for people in the 1980s and 90s, like, through the crack epidemic in America. It profiles for people across the country. And it's really good and sort of on the spectrum of, like, reported, Reported. Reported. This is slightly more creative in style. It's, like, more lyrical, but not lyrical. Like fiction lyrical, but just, like, more lyrical in that genre, if that makes sense. It's still pretty fucking reported. It's deeply reported and researched and really amazing. But it has, like, a flow to it that just is, like, a little. A little more stylized, I should say. So those are my three. What do you have?
- [44:13]
A
So I. I have two. One is a little bit more in memoir, but I feel like it. It is a larger kind of subculture and, like, conversation. So the first is. I mean, it's like a pretty standard at this point, but I do think it is a standard for a reason, and that is how the word is passed. I mean, I just think that is. I really do look to that book frequently, even as an editor of an example of just really incredible melding and, like, seamless melding of history, of reporting, of sort of that personal commentary. It's one of those books that is, like, timely and timeless. And I think it's also structured in a way that I love, which is there is a singular arc and journey that you are following, but there is a capability of putting it down and picking it up, and that you can kind of go through these different phases with it. Another. Actually, I have two more. Oh, my gosh. I'm like. Now that I'm thinking of them. The other is. That's the memoir, but also kind of is a larger commentary on stuff. Is the Beauty in Breaking, which Michelle Harper, I think is her.
- [45:29]
B
Yeah, the doctor, right?
- [45:30]
A
Yes. And she's an ER doctor. And it's just a. I mean, it's also, like, lyrical. It's kind of. It's not like, you know, it's not like a Grey's Anatomy kind of like treatment of the er, but it sort of blends what's going on in her life with having to go into a place where you have to leave that at the door and you have to take care of, of different types of people with different types of problems. And it just is a really amazing look, not only at. Because I really love books too that are showing you and are really immersing you in different types of workplaces or different types of lives and moving through the world. And I think there is such an added, not even added weight, but there's just a really fantastic layer that is placed on that book because you are aware that she is a black woman. As a doctor, you not only know kind of what it required to get her there, but also she's very aware throughout the book, if I remember correctly, when she sees certain patients, she's very aware that if roles were reversed, she would be in a different situation too. So it's a really kind of eye opening and lovely book. And then another one that is kind of like a standard at this point, but a really great one nonetheless is Saidiya Hartman's book Wayward Beauty. Oh, my God.
- [46:59]
B
Wayward Lives. Beautiful experiments. Wayward Lives, Beautiful experiments. Wayward Lives. Experiments.
- [47:03]
A
Beautiful. It's like a vocal exercise.
- [47:06]
B
It's a combination of the words wayward lives and beautiful lives. Beautiful experience. But it could be beautiful experiments. Wayward lies. I think it's beautiful experiments. Wayward lives.
- [47:13]
A
Yes, yes, yes. And another one that like uniform arc, but you can kind of pick up and put down. I love the ability to kind of like poke your head through a window and kind of like see all of these different. These different people and worlds and. Oh, okay. I do have one final one which is.
- [47:30]
B
Oh my gosh, I love this.
- [47:31]
A
Yeah. Which is again, it's sort of a, like a hybrid of what we're talking about. But recently they republished a memoir. I think the person who put it together is not a person of color or black, but it's. It's Josephine Baker's memoir.
- [47:53]
B
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
- [47:54]
A
And they read. They kind of reorganized it all together. It was published and was like long out of print. And then they sort of recontextualized it and brought it back. I'm a big lot like 1920s theme reader. I love it. But I really, I read that book and I just loved being immersed in that world. And she was so fantastic and just had such a fascinating life. And so that's another one that's really great to also have it be a story and a story kind of adjacent to a lot of history that other people usually like already and then just getting the front row seat to it. So now I went from zero to four. I know I Love this job.
- [48:35]
B
I love this. Jessica, thank you for asking. Let us know how we did. If you read any of our picks. And then everyone else, email. Ask the Stacks atthestacks podcast.com to have your recommendations read on air. All right, Juliana. Two books you love, one book you hate.
- [48:50]
A
Okay, So I. My two books that I really love are Hidden Valley Road by Robert Kolker.
- [48:58]
B
Okay.
- [48:58]
A
That is a book that I recommend to a lot of people. I think it's, again, a similar thing of just, like, really? And again, Bob Kolker. That was the second book, and it totally exploded.
- [49:09]
B
I just went back and read his first book this week because I knew that you liked him. Yeah. And now I'm going to read his third book that comes out this year, and then I'm going to have done the complete Robert Kolker trilogy.
- [49:22]
A
Yeah. So that book is, like, a great blend of.
- [49:24]
B
Of.
- [49:24]
A
Of reporting personal. Like, invest. Like he's not really a character, but you. You see through him this, like, saga of just understanding and unwinding it. And then it's about a family with,
- [49:37]
B
like, a lot of the family has schizophrenia.
- [49:39]
A
Yeah. And it's that the first kid is diagnosed, I want to say, in, like, the 50s or 60s, because they had, like, 10, eight or 10 children. And. But so the. Between the first diagnosis of one child and then the last one who's diagnosed, which I think is creeping up into, like, the 80s, maybe you see the full scope of, like, how schizophrenia has been treated. Like, the first child, you know, they're telling the mother that, like, she's done something to damage them psychologically. And then as they get through, they're finally in a place where, you know, medically and chemically, they understand what's going on. And then the other one that I really love and has a very important place in my heart is the Interestings by Meg Wolitzer.
- [50:21]
B
Oh, that's fiction.
- [50:23]
A
It's fiction. I know. I have one of each.
- [50:25]
B
Okay.
- [50:26]
A
Okay. So I really. I just think that book is so great, and I think it's, like a very good, like, multipurpose. You can give it to someone at any point in their life because it travels the 40 years.
- [50:36]
B
Got it.
- [50:37]
A
But I'm trying to think if there's one other.
- [50:41]
B
No, no, just two.
- [50:42]
A
Yeah, just two. Okay. And then the one book I hate,
- [50:44]
B
but now you have to share the book you hate. You only do two. Because I'm eager to get to the hate.
- [50:48]
A
I know. So. So in terms of a book I hate, I have a problem. It was just it's just annoying because I actually really. I love this author in every other part of his canon, but I have a lot of issues with In Cold Blood.
- [51:09]
B
Oh, wow. Hot, hot take.
- [51:13]
A
Holy shit.
- [51:14]
B
Did not see that coming. Okay, why do you hate it?
- [51:17]
A
So I. And like I said, Cody, we love
- [51:22]
B
Truman, but we gotta discuss the work.
- [51:25]
A
Hoffman as Truman.
- [51:26]
B
Sure, sure. Great performance.
- [51:29]
A
Maybe it's because I learned too much about Capote down the line that I just like. I think maybe the context has ruined it for me. But I do think that it is a book and every book has an agenda. You know, like, to some extent, like we. There's a reason, especially with nonfiction. Like, you always go into it wanting to write about something. I. I find it somewhat inorganic and. And sort of not. Yeah, I guess inorganic is the right way. Like, I think that he. He not only inserted himself into a lot of it, as was his. As was his way, but I think that he also went into something deciding how he wanted it to go. And so I think in nonfiction that is something that happens, of course, but I do think that you can tell when an author wants it to go a certain way and that their feelings have come in. And I also have since learned that there is a lot of questions about whether part of that book is also written by Harper Lee.
- [52:38]
B
So, yes, I've heard this. I've heard this take. What's the last great book you read?
- [52:47]
A
I gotta say, I am not brown nosing here, but Stack's favorite Gods of New York was really up there with.
- [52:56]
B
That's a banger. That's a sneaky banger too. It did not get enough appreciation.
- [53:02]
A
It really did not. And I know that. I mean, living in New York, ladies and gentlemen, the Bronx is Burning is kind of a cult favorite. I feel like a lot of people have that on their shelves. And it's a really. I think that book is fascinating too, but I really was impressed by. There is a very thin line, I think, in nonfiction, of those types of kaleidoscopic books veering potentially into survey, which is like. Which turns it into like a totally different kind of book. And it's more just like. Oh, and like listing and kind of giving you a full scope rather than like, sticking to narrative framework. And I think he did it absolutely masterfully of covering the amount of ground that he did, but, like, keeping it organized and making you realize that, like, everything felt intentional about that book. It did not feel kitchen. It did not feel like, oh, I have to talk about these different people or moments. And like, they have to connect to these. I think that that's one that I was. I was just very impressed by the execution in that book.
- [54:08]
B
Yeah.
- [54:09]
A
And I just loved. I loved reading about a place I'm very familiar with, but a time that I was not alive for and had heard so many. I love books, too, that are taking something that I've heard about and think I know about and then. And telling me how dumb I am, basically. And that was one of them. And it was really great. It also was like a very. I felt like, with this book and the John Gans, I felt like every three pages. And I mean this in a very complimentary way, but I was like, not this man again. Like, there's like. I feel like every time a name came up that I was like, these expletives are still around. Like, I'm just like, not him.
- [54:51]
B
Every time that he said Giuliani, I was like, oh, my God.
- [54:54]
A
God Ale. Like, it's just. Yeah. Like, there's just so many people that I was like, I like.
- [54:58]
B
And then they'd be like, Spike Lee. And I'd be like, oh, yay, Fun. I know him.
- [55:03]
A
Exactly. I was like, finally, somebody I like.
- [55:05]
B
I'm like, back to the movies.
- [55:06]
A
Exactly, exactly. So, yeah, I do. I loved that book. I thought it was a great recommendation from you.
- [55:11]
B
Thank you. I love to hear this feedback. What are you currently reading?
- [55:16]
A
So I just picked up Yuppies by Dylan Gottlieb, which was just the kind of focus of a newsletter from Anne Helen Peterson, who I love and think does really great work in also this space. And I was on, like, a tear of. Which is, like, how the Mahler book came into, like. I was on, like, a tear of just, like, 80s 90s, you know, culture and history and sort of trying to. Because I really like stuff that just kind of. I look to books a lot of the time for, like, why are we like this?
- [55:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [55:55]
A
It's been really nice to like, recontextualize all of my feelings about what's happening in the world now with, like, understanding kind of like, where it came from and where the parallels are. So this is about the 80s in New York, specifically, and the. The rise of this, you know, image and, I mean, stereotype and reality of this, like, you know, upwardly mobile class of people. Because yuppie is young up, young urban professionals. I think it is. And sort of just like this was. It seemed. I think it's coming out of a dissertation that the author wrote. So there's a little Bit of an academic bend to it, but it's really interesting of just like how it interacted with capitalism and like the greed is good era and all of these different things. So that's what I just picked up. And then I also yesterday actually picked up a copy of Was Is it We Own this City? The new book about Wilmington, North Carolina.
- [56:52]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [56:54]
A
That's been on my list. So I. I got a copy of that too. My. My, like summer reading is like deep
- [57:01]
B
history, so it's so not what everyone else's summer reading is.
- [57:06]
A
Yeah.
- [57:07]
B
And I feel like I do some of my best work in this time. I do some of my deepest, most up stuff during. Between May and September. I'm just really digging into the archive. I feel like last year I read Nazi billionaires during this time frame. Just a casual light.
- [57:23]
A
That one's.
- [57:25]
B
That book is so good. That's a Patrick Raden Keefe wreck. I gotta give him credit. Exciting. What are some books you're looking forward to reading?
- [57:34]
A
Oh, so I mean, I'm really trying to move through books that I feel like I missed because with my job, like, I'm. I'm working like a year, about a year, year and a half out.
- [57:47]
B
Yeah.
- [57:47]
A
So I'm always like aware of stuff that is in the pipeline at like other houses or with other editors. And then I just kind of like. And I always like get the galleys or I have them on pre orders and things like that. And then I. I just am on a different cadence than kind of the general public in terms of what they're reading. So I haven't gotten to London Falling yet, which is number one on the list. I also have some. I have the. Is it the Source of Self Regard? That's Toni Morrison. Yeah. So I kind of have just stuff that I feel like I've had a copy of Forever or have had in the back of my head is something I really want to read and get through that I haven't gotten to yet. Another book that I. It's kind of like the, like a fun like beach. This. My equivalent of a beach read is like Amy o' Dell's book on Anna Wintour. Like, I kind of want to like sit like, you know, a crisp little glass of and read. And then I also have a couple of the old, like the really old ones. Like I have like David Halbersam's the 50s and like Studs Terkel's Working. I like really want to read also. Been trying to make my way through what it takes for like, however many years I've been that Richard Ben Kramer. But I love.
- [59:07]
B
Have you ever read the Power Broker?
- [59:10]
A
Oh, Tracy, have you done it? I. The Power Broker is going to be the book that, like, I. When I retire, I will finally be able to read that book. I'm not ready, but I did. I love. I mean, I love. I loved the documentary Turn Every Page that was about Robert Caro and Bob Gottlieb. And it's such a. I love Bob Caro also, just for his whole approach. His book Working is actually an amazing, quick, but really informative and amazing book. And this summer, actually, a colleague of mine and I were like, we're gonna do it. We're gonna do. We're going to read the Power Broker. And we put in our work calendars, like, we have the dates of, like, how many chapters. We did it after the 99% invisible plan that they did. And then I had to do a bunch of edits. And that book has been like. It has post its in it, but it's on my nightstand, so I'm going to get to it. It's my goal.
- [60:10]
B
It's okay.
- [60:11]
A
I just like White Whale.
- [60:12]
B
Yeah. I'm like, I want to read it, but also I'm like, never get to it. It's fine.
- [60:17]
A
It's also one of those books, like, I don't know if you can do on audio, because I feel like I want to.
- [60:20]
B
Like, really? I started it on audio and the narrator was giving. Can't do this for 48 hours. Oh, no. You know what I mean? Like, if I had started it and been like. Because, like, I love a biography on audio, like a big boy. Like, I read that Reagan biography on audio and was just like, let's go. But if the nar. Because it's an older book, the narration is kind of older, and it's like a different style. It's like a little more like Robert, you know, do you have a favorite bookstore?
- [60:48]
A
I do. My favorite bookstore is Northshire Bookstore in Manchester, Vermont.
- [60:53]
B
Okay.
- [60:54]
A
Though I grew up in the New York suburbs, I. I've spent. My parents now live in Vermont, and I spent a lot of time there. And I was a competitive skier growing up. So that was. That was like my hometown bookstore because my town did not have an independent bookstore until the year my parents sold our house.
- [61:13]
B
So you were actually holding the town back. Your family was holding the town back. They were like, we want to put a bookstore here, but we don't want Juliana to be happy.
- [61:21]
A
We don't want her to Be happy. But, yeah, Manchester. And there's also one in Saratoga also, but their original is Manchester.
- [61:28]
B
What's the last book that made you laugh?
- [61:32]
A
I would say it was more. It was. It was laughter. I'm actually quite hard to make laugh in a book. It was more laughter of, like, self recognition in some of the stuff that the. Some of the stuff that was happening. But I. I was reading Famesick, Lena Dunham's book, and I was just like, oh, man, did you like it? Drag me. I have, like, mixed feelings. I really loved it because I do think she is, like, a very good writer. And I think she just, like, knows how to. How to put this stuff together. Like, I think she's. For all the other mediums she's done. Like, she's a writer.
- [62:10]
B
Like, she just.
- [62:11]
A
She gets it. And I appreciate. I appreciate that it was something that she took so long to put together, because I do think if it had come out at any other time earlier than this, it just, like, wouldn't be landing the same way. Yeah, I do. I did at times. It brought me back into the slightly triggering millennial, like, 2012-15 era of just, like, hyper personal and, like, hyper disclosy writing that I was just like, I don't need to know all these things
- [62:46]
B
that makes my skin crawl. I haven't read it yet. I think I'm going to, but I have anxiety about doing it. I'm, like, very apprehensive. What's the last book that made you cry?
- [62:59]
A
I think it was probably a novel, but I cried at the end of, weirdly enough, into the Blue by Emma Brody, which was recently, like, a Jenna pick or Reese's pick, but that book just. Yeah, that book made me cry. But one book that has made me cry a few times because I've reread it over the years, is Random Family, actually.
- [63:24]
B
Okay, okay, okay. I need to read that so bad. What's the last book that made you angry?
- [63:30]
A
I gotta say, like, I mean, it seems like a cop out, but, like, Gods of New York kind of made me angry. And not, not in, like, a way that it was, like, intended, but just I. I read it feeling very frustrated. And maybe I find it happening with a lot of nonfiction books lately, but I am getting increasingly frustrated of our inability to learn from ourselves. Sure, sure, sure. And so I read it, just being like, it's all just been here and we should be learning more things. But I did recently, the other book that has made me. Another book that made me angry. I'm not Far into it. But the book that just won the Pulitzer for general nonfiction.
- [64:16]
B
Oh yeah, Brian Goldstone's book. There is no place.
- [64:19]
A
Yeah, Brian Goldstone. Yeah. Yeah. That's a rage inducing. Like it's. Yeah, it's just one of those things that I like on like, just like a. An intellectual but like a soul level. It just like makes you want to rage.
- [64:35]
B
Totally. What is your ideal reading setup, location, time of day, snacks and beverages, accoutrement? Please explain.
- [64:47]
A
Yes, so my ideal is on a screened in porch, specifically the screening porch of my parents old house.
- [64:58]
B
How east coast have you.
- [65:02]
A
But it was. We had like trees all around it. So I need to be like somewhat outside but like somewhat shielded from the elements, I guess.
- [65:11]
B
Yes, yes, yes.
- [65:12]
A
With like a big glass of like water or lemonade and also like a glass of wine. I just like love having those options and then like golden hour. Like I just feel like it really. I love the idea and the feeling of, of it being light and fading and then realizing that I want to go inside and keep reading. Like I want sort of that feeling of like, oh no, I like don't want it to end. And so I keep going. Especially now with like phones and email and all these other things that can take your attention. Like I like feeling as though I'm actively choosing to stay with a story.
- [65:52]
B
This is very good answer. Okay, if you were a teacher in high school, what is a book you would assign? You can pick your subject, you can pick whatever, but like you're a high school teacher. What are we giving the kids to read?
- [66:07]
A
I am giving the kid. I gotta say, I really think that, that journalism is not well taught. Like I'm giving them like I'm giving like Hiroshima. I'm giving, you know, like just Martha Gellhorn, who I think is like criminally undertaught and under read. I'm giving like, yeah, like even like Capote's profiles. Like I think there's like a real segment of just like how what we think of in high school as like history and reading and understanding the world. Like I had a teacher who like gave us like. Yeah, like we read old New Yorker articles about World War II and all that stuff. And it was just like it was short that it wasn't like, you know, assigning a ton of stuff. But it also just, it was, it was fun and captivating, you know. And I think especially now with like all these concerns about like attention spans and everything. Like just like really good journalism should be taught and it should be. And I also Think that, like, by extension, you know, you're. You're teaching people to critically read the news, you know, And I think that's, like, really important. But I will say, if I was ever on an episode of Subway Takes, my.
- [67:22]
B
My.
- [67:23]
A
My biggest, like, hot take is that with high school, we are not. And maybe it's different since I was there, but I. I think that we are taught especially with, like, fiction and then other certain types of nonfiction that you typically read. It's taught too much to theme and archetype and, like, adapting to lessons for high school kids. So, like, Catcher in the Rye, it's like, oh, yeah, this is, like, a book to teach you about being a loner and, like, being a jerk. And, like, it should be taught alongside Salinger's biography so that you can understand that, like, he. His first day of combat in the war was D Day, and he, you know, had a nervous breakdown when he was serving in the army and then was, like, in Nuremberg, like, doing, you know, denazification processes, and came back to New York to his rich Upper east side family, and nobody would talk to him about the war. And so all the phonies, like, it's ptsd. So, like, it's just, like, that changes so much of how you think of and read that book. And I think we need to, like, context is so important, and I think we just need to. We need to do more to do that in schools.
- [68:30]
B
This is a great. I wanted. It's not a great subway take, but it is a great take. I feel like we need to do subway takes for. It just feels, like, too hyper specific for subway takes. I feel like half the audience would be like, aren't you supposed to be giving me a take about, like, toenail clipping or something?
- [68:47]
A
They would. They would fully be like, please go in the other car and, like, find someone a more compelling take.
- [68:55]
B
This is the right audience for your take? Yeah. This is the right audience for your take? Yeah.
- [69:00]
A
Yeah.
- [69:00]
B
Okay. Last, last, last, Last one. This is from the New York Times by the book. If you could require the current president of these United States of America, and you're our guest in July, So it's the 250th anniversary, and we've got this shit president. What would you want this fucking guy to read?
- [69:16]
A
Oh, God. I mean, the answers are coming to me in various capacities that can. You know, I think it's a trap because the books that I'm thinking of would not be read. So it's like, you know, I do think that anybody you know, leading this country should, you know, probably know what the Constitution looks like. But aside from that, I really do think that, well, I have. I have two. One. One is quicker. But I think. I do think the poetry and work of Phillis Wheatley is like, critical and also should be taught and I think nowadays taught a little bit more. But I think that is a key just perspective on this country in the light of the 250th. I think that's just like it's a writer who I think is not often given the due that is needed in general education. And I also think that Jill Lepore's these Truths is really an incredible book. And I think that, that to kind of get the look on a look on history that still has, you know, it's not a perfect one by any means, but I think that it's a different perspective and something that takes into account our more contemporary views of things.
- [70:38]
B
Okay, everybody, the great Juliana will be back on July 29th for our book club discussion of behind the Beautiful Forevers. Is that right? Behind. Beyond. Behind.
- [70:51]
A
Behind.
- [70:52]
B
Behind. I got it right. Don't ever doubt, you know, don't ever doubt yourself. Behind the Beautiful Forevers by Catherine Boot. You've never read it, right?
- [70:59]
A
I have not.
- [71:01]
B
Me neither.
- [71:02]
A
So very exciting.
- [71:02]
B
Me too. I'm really excited to read it. I think there's gonna be lots to discuss. Everybody else read it with us. You have until July 29th when the episode drops. Juliana, thank you so much for being here.
- [71:15]
A
Thank you for having me. This was so lovely.
- [71:17]
B
This was wonderful.
- [71:18]
A
Always a pleasure.
- [71:19]
B
And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y', all, thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Juliana Hobner for joining the show. Our book club pick for July is Behind the Beautiful Forever's Life, Death and Hope in a Mumbai Undercity by Katherine Fu. Juliana will be back to discuss the book book with us on Wednesday, July 29th. If you love the Stacks and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please take a moment right now and leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks pod on Instagram thread. And now we're on YouTube and you can check out our website at thestaxpodcast.com Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Sheree Marquez, and our theme music is from Tagirijis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.