Ep. 434 Traci Turns 40 with Rachel Lindsay, Sam Sanders, Becca Tobin, and Kiese Laymon

Summary

Episode Summary: The Stacks – Ep. 434: Traci Turns 40 with Rachel Lindsay, Sam Sanders, Becca Tobin, and Kiese Laymon

Host: Traci Thomas
Date: July 22, 2026

Overview

In this special episode of The Stacks, host Traci Thomas celebrates her 40th birthday by inviting four of her closest friends—Rachel Lindsay, Sam Sanders, Becca Tobin, and Kiese Laymon—to each take the interviewer’s seat and interview her. The aim: to show different sides of Traci through conversations about aging, friendship, books, food, community, ambition, and the joy (and realities) of entering a new decade. It's a heartfelt, unfiltered, and often hilarious episode spotlighting celebration, reflection, and the importance of human connections.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Embracing 40: Aging, Milestones, and Mindset

• How Traci Feels Turning 40

  • Traci and Rachel Lindsay discuss the cultural ideas of aging, particularly for women. Both admit to embracing 40 with pride, rejecting shame or fear associated with aging.
  • Traci: “I feel good about 40. I actually don’t feel bad about 40. I just feel like I could be dead, you know, like that’s the alternative.” (04:00)
  • Rachel reflects on rejecting anti-aging narratives, connecting self-perception to rejecting patriarchal standards.
  • Rachel: “We were raised to look at age in a different way…rather than just like being present and embracing and being grateful that you’re here in this space now.” (04:36)

• Birthdays and Being Celebrated

  • Traci is unapologetic about loving to celebrate her birthday—she throws parties, takes time off, gathers friends, and values marking the day.
  • “I always gather in some way for my birthday. I don’t think I’ve ever not had a something.” (05:19)

• Physical and Mental Growth Over Time

  • Traci shares that she’s physically stronger and faster now than in her earlier years, challenging assumptions that physical peak comes early.
  • “I am still getting stronger and like, still getting faster, which I don’t think I ever would have thought was how it would be at 40.” (09:20)

The Importance of Community and Friendship

• Curating a Circle

  • Traci’s proudest achievement is her ability to make and maintain deep friendships, valuing both old and new connections.
  • She likens her approach to “net fishing” (15:33–16:08): cast wide, bring people in, and cultivate select relationships.

• On Letting Go

  • Traci admits to working on letting go of jealousy, turning those feelings into motivation and reflection.
  • “Sometimes I really do get jealous…I try to be like...I’m excited for them because they’re doing something that’s great.” (19:20–20:18)
  • Notably, Rachel and Becca both say they've never felt jealousy from her, commenting on her ability to convert envy into support.

• Manifesting and Looking Forward

  • When asked about what she wants for her 40s, Traci is honest: “I want to be richer.” (24:40)
  • More deeply, she seeks “intimacy, connection, joy, community, wealth manifesting.” (27:44)

Wisdom for the Next Decade & Letting Go

• Mantras and Memoir Titles
  • Rachel asks what the next “chapter” of life would be called; Traci references a mantra from her spin class days:
    • “Yes, I can. Yes, I will. I can do anything.” (12:22)
  • Becca and Traci riff on possible memoir titles: “Hey, Everybody, Look at Me. A Memoir,” “The Loud Friend,” and “You’re So Dumb.” (65:24–65:44)
• Letting Go of Boring People and Insecurities
  • Traci zeros in on a newfound resolve to avoid boring people and uninteresting company.
  • “I have friends that are boring...I don’t want to be friends with you anymore.” (58:28)
  • She also doesn’t care about clothing sizes, refusing to let such numbers define her. (29:23)

Food, Hosting, and Building Community (with Sam Sanders)

• The Art of Gathering

  • Sam admires Traci's food-driven hospitality and her ability to create joyful, stress-free gatherings.
  • She provides practical hosting advice (44:18–44:55), such as:
    • Don’t try a brand-new recipe for a big group
    • Always have more than enough food
    • Keep events relaxed and delegate where possible
  • Her philosophy is informed by Priya Parker's “The Art of Gathering” and focuses on gathering the right mix of people, setting a welcoming tone, and making introductions.

• Community as Life Insurance

  • Traci describes gathering and feeding friends as “friend life insurance”: building joyful memories to sustain relationships during hard times.
  • “When things get bad and sad, we turn toward our memories, and I feel like having people over and eating together is such an easy way to make memories.” (51:01)

Books, Reading, and Taste (with Kiese Laymon)

• Changing Book Preferences
  • Traci admits to outgrowing most memoirs, explaining a shift toward collective, not individual, narratives:
    • “A lot of memoir feels so naive, easy. And so like, ‘this is my thing, and can you believe this?’ And I’m like, yeah, babe, I can believe this.” (87:40)
    • She attributes her high standard for memoir partially to Kiese’s “Heavy,” which raised the bar for the genre. (85:10)
• Making vs Consuming Art
  • Given the choice between making literary content or consuming sports, Traci would choose sports for the rest of her life:
    • “Nothing makes me feel like sports.” (93:37)
    • She finds the production and writing side of her job harder and less enjoyable than reading or watching sports for fun.
• Book Criticism and Honesty
  • Traci names Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow and Yesteryear as big books she disliked, critiquing their construction, hype, and literary value. (60:40–63:54)
• Writing and Future Plans
  • She openly dislikes the act of writing, calling it her least favorite, though most lucrative, part of her work: “I hate it…I’m not good at it…I don’t like writing. I’m only doing it because it’s how I make money.” (96:02–97:05)
  • She has no plans to write a book; the closest she’d get is curating an anthology with a short intro. (97:15–97:36)

Rapid-Fire and Lighthearted Moments

• Quick Takes
  • 30s in one word: “Fun.”
  • 40s in one word: “Abundant...positive abundance.” (28:59–29:18)
  • Age she feels inside: “33.” (29:45)
  • Dream 40-before-50: “Go to Morocco.” (30:07)
  • If 40 had a warranty: “My health insurance. My body.” (29:50)
• Perfect Day Fantasy (with Kiese)
  • Traci’s dream day includes: a solo morning in a luxurious hotel, reading, leisurely breakfasts, walking in Paris, eating fries and escargot, drinking Diet Coke from a can, ending the night with sports—ideally with her brother and remembering her dad. (79:09–103:30)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I feel good about 40. I actually don’t feel bad about 40. I just feel like I could be dead, you know, like, that’s the alternative.” – Traci (04:00)
• “If this chapter of your life had a title, what would it be?”
  “Somebody babysit my kids.” – Rachel & Traci (11:41–11:56)
• “Yes, I can. Yes, I will. I can do anything.” – Traci’s life mantra from spinning, applied to her new decade (12:22)
• “My favorite thing in the world is to, like, make new friends. Most people hate new friends…But I find it to be thrilling.” – Traci (15:35)
• “I’m so competitive, I’m really trying to work on letting go of jealousy.” – Traci (19:10)
• “The best hosting is easy stuff.” – Traci (45:21)
• “Friendship is like life insurance. Building those memories carries you through the tough times.” – Traci (51:04)
• “I don’t want to have the same conversation with people every single time I see them. Goodbye, Boros.” – Traci (59:05)
• “Nothing makes me feel like sports.” – Traci, on choosing sports over books (93:35)
• “I hate [writing]. I’m only doing it because it’s how I make money.” – Traci (96:10)
• “The people come around on Cats. You were right. It’s a fantastic musical.” – Traci to Little Traci (74:22)
• “Of course I would like for [my dad] to watch Dusty Baker win the World Series.” – Traci (103:30)

---

Important Timestamps

• [03:55] – Traci & Rachel discuss embracing 40, feeling youthful, and attitudes toward age.
• [11:51] – “What would you call this chapter?”—Traci’s life mantra and reflection
• [15:16] – On cultivating and maintaining friendships, the “net fishing” approach to relationships.
• [19:10] – Letting go of jealousy and turning negative emotions into productivity.
• [24:32] – Manifesting dreams and honestly wishing for wealth in her 40s.
• [44:18] – Practical hosting advice for chill, successful gatherings.
• [51:04] – The philosophy of food and gathering as “friend life insurance.”
• [58:28] – No more boring people: Traci’s policy for midlife friendships.
• [60:40] – Naming overhyped books she disliked and her approach to criticism.
• [79:09] – Kiese interviews Traci about her fantasy perfect day: books, hotels, tea, Paris, and sports.
• [93:35] – Traci, on choosing sports over books.
• [97:15] – Why she won’t write a book and her feelings about writing.

---

Episode Structure

1. Introduction & Setting the Scene [00:08–03:05]

• Traci warmly welcomes listeners, describes her 40th birthday intention, and introduces her guests.

2. Rachel Lindsay Segment [03:05–30:40]

• Deep-dive into aging, friendship, self-perception, and letting go of insecurity.

3. Sam Sanders Segment [32:49–53:22]

• The art and philosophy of hosting; food as a means to community and memories.

4. Becca Tobin Segment [53:45–77:09]

• Oldest friend’s long-standing bond; books and criticism; humor and shared memories; being unapologetically oneself.

5. Kiese Laymon Segment [77:34–103:58]

• Ideal day, reading, changing tastes, work vs joy, regrets; a vulnerable, candid finish.

---

Tone & Style

The tone is celebratory, very personal and candid, often playful and filled with laughter. Friends joke about each other’s quirks and reference shared history, but the episode never loses its heart or honesty. The language is direct, sometimes explicit, always real.

---

For New Listeners & Longtime Fans

This episode is a window into the host’s true self, philosophy, and values. It’s for anyone who loves books, forming relationships, and gaining wisdom from the passages of life. Expect laughter, a little irreverence, and permission to claim and celebrate your own journey—at any age.

Transcript

[Sam Sanders]

Foreign.

[Tracy Thomas]

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas and today we are doing something a little bit different. Today is Wednesday, July 22, 2026, which also just happens to be my 40th birthday. And because it is my birthday and and my show and I'm a Leo, I'm doing something that I've always wanted to do. I have invited four of my very good friends on the podcast today. They are each going to interview me for a little bit of time and show you a different side of me and the sex and getting older and food and community and sports and all the things that I love the most. So please welcome to the podcast my amazing guests, Rachel Lindsay, Sam Sanders, Becca Tobin and Kiese Lehman. Our book club pick for July is behind the Beautiful Forever's Life, Death and Hope in a Mumbai Undercity by Katherine Boo. We will be discussing the book with Juliana Hobner on Wednesday, July 29th. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show Notes if you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community, if you want fun perks like bonus episodes and reading challenges and hot takes, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on Substack. And because today is my birthday, I'm going to be a little more honest. Honest and sincere. There is no way I could make this show without the support of people on Patreon and Substack. I would not have the time. I would not have the energy. I would not have the freedom to come up with new ideas and try new things out like this very episode. I also would not be able to pay the amazing people that make the show sound good and run smoothly every single week, like my editor Christian, my assistant Sahara, and my Jack of all trades Cherie. So if you like the show, if you support it, if you want to give me a birthday present Today, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com thank you so much for being here. All right, now it is time for my 40th birthday party which you are all invited to. I'm kicking things off with my dear friend Rachel Lindsay, who has been a guest on this very podcast. She was the first black Bachelorette. She now hosts an incredible podcast called Higher Learning with Van Lathan. She also is the host of the Morally Corrupt podcast, both on the Ringer Network. She is a Two time author and as you'll hear, an absolutely wonderful person.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh my gosh, this is so exciting. Wait, I have to tell you, one of my favorite things to do is I am so used to being interviewed, but when I get to interview one of my friends, it's like, it's an exciting moment. But then it's also, I don't know, like, I'm nervous. Cause at the same time, I'm nervous. At the same time I'm like, I know you so well. I feel like. So I'm like, I don't want to say something, whatever. That's why recording is great. Okay, let's get into it.

[Becca Tobin]

Yes, we'll edit.

[Tracy Thomas]

We'll get into it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I'm so happy for you turning 40. And before we dive in, I just have to give because I feel like when we were younger, it was like, 40. It's over the hill. It's over the hill. I can remember going to my uncle's birthday, the first person in my Life to turn 40 close to me. And I just remember thinking, oh my gosh, he's so old. And now that we're here, I am fully embracing 40. I thought I would be so scared for it. And I think it is. Every decade I'm going to say this, but I think it's one of the most exciting decades and you're going to feel that way too. And when I thought I would be kind of like timid to tell people, well, I'm turning 40 now, I'm like, I'm 40. I don't feel it, I don't look it. And it's the same thing about you. So we're diving right in.

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel good about 40. I actually don't feel bad about 40. I just feel like I could be dead, you know, like, that's the alternative.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's a little morbid that for you to say it like that, but it is so. But it's so true. It's so true at the same time.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Becca Tobin]

Like, it's like.

[Tracy Thomas]

And also like you put in all these years of life and you just make mistakes and you just fuck up for years and years. And I feel like every year you get older, you're just like doing it slightly better. Like, sure, you'll still fuck up and stuff, but I'm like, I've got 40 years under the belt.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, no, no.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, like, I felt so uncertain at like 25.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I feel like. And I blame everything on the patriarchy these days.

[Becca Tobin]

Right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because why?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, a thousand percent.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I feel like we were raised to look at age in a different way. I feel like we were raised to, in some ways, lie about our age because younger is better. Or we would lie to be older, and then as we got older, we would lie to be younger rather than just like being present and embracing and being grateful that you're here in this space now. And I don't know about you. So this is, I guess, the first question. What do you do on birthdays? Like, how do you go into a birthday?

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I love birthdays, so I am not an anti birthday person. I actually get annoyed when people are like, I don't do anything for my birthday. I'm like, this is your day.

[Rachel Lindsay]

These are not our people.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, well, I do other things. I know, but some of my very good friends are not birthday people. It's very weird, but you and I both love a birthday, so I always gather in some way for my birthday. I don't think I've ever not had a something, but I know you do. Kind of New Year's resolution reset, goal setting type thing.

I don't do that.

I just want to have a fun time. I accept every invitation for a lunch or a drink. You know, like, someone can't come to my party, but let me take you out.

[Becca Tobin]

I'm like, yes, please do.

[Tracy Thomas]

I will.

Usually I don't work. I will take the day off.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Good for you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I've been doing that for a long time. And I might still do work, but I won't have, like, any record. Like, I won't have work where I'm needed with others. Like, I'll block my calendar off. I usually exercise on my birthday in some way. Last year, we went and got high tea on my birthday.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes, that was really fun.

[Tracy Thomas]

This year I had a party. When people are listening to this a few days ago with all my friends, inspired by Rachel, we had a party bus.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's the way to do it.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then we watched the World cup final the next day, which we, as

[Becca Tobin]

we're recording, we don't know who's in it. We don't know what happens. But it was probably a great match and we had a great time and

[Tracy Thomas]

hopefully it went to penalty kicks. And then on my actual birthday, I'll have dinner with my family.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Beautiful. So you love to be celebrated. And this is why I. Sage, I know technically you're a cancer, but you're.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, technically, I'm a Leo.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I thought Leo starts on the 23rd.

[Tracy Thomas]

I know, but I was born so late at night on the 22nd on the west coast that the sun had officially moved into leo.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It proves my point. You have such Leo energy that I'm

[Tracy Thomas]

like, I was gonna say technically.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I know you are, but you really give leo, which fits into the whole thing of being celebrated as you should. How did you imagine you would feel at 40 when you were younger? And are you. Are you better?

[Tracy Thomas]

I thought it was old.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, are you?

[Tracy Thomas]

I thought 40 was old, and now I think 40 is great.

The thing I didn't realize.

Okay, so I am the youngest person in my life, weirdly, besides my children, but like almost all of my friends, I'm the youngest cousin. I'm the youngest child. All of my friends are older than me, even if it's just a few days. Like my sister in law and very dear friend Sarah is exactly one month older than me, but almost all of my friends are older than me. So I still feel young because I'm younger than everyone else.

[Becca Tobin]

And I know that's silly, but like, I do feel like the baby, even

[Tracy Thomas]

though it's just like a few weeks for some people. But like, my best friend Claire is like, she's February. So everyone's turning 40 this year. But almost all of my friends already turned 40. All my friends are older than me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I am older.

[Tracy Thomas]

They're a little older. Yeah, everyone's like 8, 1985 or early 1986.

[Rachel Lindsay]

But I think that you said something that's so important. You don't like when people don't want to celebrate their birthday? I don't like when people are constantly talking about how old they are.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, you know, it's the same as,

like, when people talk about their weight. I'm like, okay, just eat the fucking cookie. Shut up. Like, oh, I can't have this today. I'm like, just, it's one cookie. If this cookie is the difference between you liking your body and you thinking that you're like a disgusting human, that's really not the cookie.

[Becca Tobin]

That's really a you thing. And that's how I feel about age 100%.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And I just believe words are so powerful. And I just feel like if you're constantly telling yourself how old you are or calling yourself auntie or ankh, you know, I rebuke those phrases. I mean, I'm an aunt in real life, but I just, I'm not saying you have to act like a 21 year old, but how you feel is a real thing. When I wake up in the morning, I choose my words, I choose my feelings, and I choose to feel yeah. And so I don't think that that's a silly, silly thing that you're the youngest and that's how you feel, or you truly. You're 40 technically, but you feel younger. I think that that's how we should be. We gotta change the whole perspective.

[Tracy Thomas]

I also feel like I am, like, stronger and faster and, like, I'm in better shape than I've been in a really long time, though. Not the best shape of my life because I taught spin for a long

[Becca Tobin]

time, so I was, like, really cardiovascularly strong.

[Tracy Thomas]

Now I'm more, like, I can, like, lift heavier things than I've ever lifted. And, like, not that that is necessarily, like, of health, but it is, like, I am still getting stronger and, like, still getting faster, which I don't think I ever would have thought was how it would be at 40. Yeah. Like, I sort of thought I'd already peaked physically. And, like, maybe if I was training back then, like, how I'm training now, I would have been even faster than I am now. But that's not how it worked. And I am the fastest I've ever been. And I'm like, oh, this is so, like, refreshing.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think that strength, to your point, is also mind over matter. And a lot of, like, what we do, whether it's running, whether it's strength training, whether it's, like, just endurance, getting through a project or the day or whatever. Whatever it is, the older I get, the. I feel like my mind is stronger. And I think that's the beauty of it. And I'll be honest, Tracy, as I'm here on the other side of it, because, yes, I'm an older friend than you. There is an energy that comes from the wisdom, the main. The mental strength, the lived experience that is so attractive to, like, the younger folks. I have younger friends, you know, I date, so. Younger men. Yeah. Like you. Exactly. And I think that's why you have all, like, the social media things where it's like, these women are in their 40s, these women are turning 50s, and they look like this, versus maybe some of the younger folks who are, like, you know, doing some things that we didn't discover till later in life. Like, I just feel like there's something different.

[Tracy Thomas]

Kids faces look like housewives in their 50s and 60s, and it's very confusing, like, the aesthetic of their face, like, the stuff they're getting done. I'm like, you're 22 and you look 50.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

On purpose.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Because of filters. You know, that's what plastic surgeons were saying. That people were coming in and saying, I want. I want to look like this filter, which is crazy. Okay, back to you. Forget these youngins, okay? If. If this.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm still young, Rachel.

[Becca Tobin]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

No, I mean, like, the babies. You are young, beautiful, all the things. But to, like, link it to, since this is the Stacks podcast and to books. If this chapter of your life had a title, what would it be?

[Tracy Thomas]

The chapter I'm going into?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah,

[Tracy Thomas]

somebody babysit my kids.

[Rachel Lindsay]

That's actually hilarious. Do you know that would be a bestseller on the title alone?

[Becca Tobin]

Yeah, somebody can maybe send my kids.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, I don't know.

I don't know. It's hard to chop title something that doesn't exist yet.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Interesting. Okay, so what title where you are right now and maybe your energy going into this next chapter?

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, can I just.

Okay, I'm sort of flipping the question. It's not a good title. But I'm going to tell you about a mantra that I have used over the years. When I used to be a spin teacher, my mentor was this guy named Victor. And he's the best spin teacher, and he's the best guy, and I love Victor. And he used to always say in his spin classes, like, when things would get hard, he would go, yes, I can. Yes, I will. I can do anything. And this is a thing that I use all the time.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, I remember I was bike riding. I. I'm. I just learned how to ride a bike when I was, like an adult, and I was bike riding in London on the city streets, and they had

to close down a street, so we

had to ride on, like, a main street in London. And I was panicking. And the whole time I just kept going, yes, I can. Yes, I will. I can do anything. Yes, I can. Yes, I will. I can do anything. And that is, like, what I feel like is my energy moving forward in life. Because I feel like sometimes things are, like, really hard and challenging. Of course, and I would like to quit and give up, but I'm just, like, so morally opposed to quitting. And, um. And so oftentimes I have to, yes, I can.

[Becca Tobin]

Yes, I will.

[Tracy Thomas]

I can do anything myself, because otherwise I would immediately quit. So that is not really a great book title, but that's sort of the energy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It is. It's a. It's like you said, it's a mantra.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's a little long. It's a little long of a title. I feel like the marketing team would

[Becca Tobin]

be like, can we. Can we zhuzh it a little bit?

[Tracy Thomas]

It could Be bitter standing on the

[Becca Tobin]

COVID Yeah, it would be me sitting

[Tracy Thomas]

on the COVID with my arms crossed. Like, looking back, I'm for.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I am for it. I'm a believer in mantras, like, as you're saying. And I want to go write that on all the mirrors in my house or put it on a post it. Like, it's a, It's a, It's a true thing. No, that works. That works.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's a good one for me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

When I believe. I know you believe. Birthdays are celebrations, and they are. And I love to be celebrated as well. It's a month long thing for me, maybe year. But I also look at it as a time of reflection. Like, I truly look where I've been, where I am and where I want to go. And I just think you're fabulous. And I say this for people who don't know. Tracy and I met like this, just like this. She was interviewing me for her podcast. And you're. I just found you so captivating. I think you're one of the most interesting people. And if you guys have never seen her in a live show, it is, ah, it's just amazing. Like, I'm taking notes. Truly, truly. And I'm not here to, like, gas you up for your birthday. This is how I really think about you. And I just thought, oh, my God, I really want more of her. I hope she wants to be my friend as well. Truly, truly. And so I like, when you think about, you know, like I said, like, where you've been and where you are now, what is the accomplishment that you're most proud of that maybe most people don't know about?

[Tracy Thomas]

I. I don't know if people don't know this about me, but the thing that I'm the most proud of is, like, the collection of people that I have in my life. I was just talking about this this past weekend with some new parents, some parents that are new friends because my kids were just in kindergarten, so they're kindergarten parents.

And we all got together for July

4th, and I was just saying, like, how much, how happy I was that I actually liked the parents. And one of the dads was like, you know, I was so shocked you included us in this today because, like, we just met and blah, blah, and I was like, oh, my God, Francis, like, my favorite thing in the world is to, like, make new friends. Most people hate new friends. Like, they don't want to do, but I find it to be, like, thrilling. I love talking to people and I love, like, I feel like with Making friends. It's like, I don't know. I don't fish, but it's like net fishing, where you cast a wide net and you sort of pull all the fish in, and then you kind of

[Becca Tobin]

have to go through and be like, yes, you do.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

Like, this is, like, a fun fish. Like, if we're all going out, like, I would invite them, but, like, who's a fish that I want to, like, go to dinner with and, like, who. You know? Like, I love to sort of cultivate, like, relationships. And during COVID I remember, like, 2020, like, the heart of it, I spent so much time with my friends that I'd had for years because I had friends who were single and they were alone, and we were inviting them to the backyard to, like, eat dinner at a distance. And I was so worried about all of them. And around. I think 20 year book came out in 2022, because that was the year that my new Year's resolution was to actually go back to making new friends because I had spent time. So much time, like, on my. My older friends and, like, friends I'd had for decades. And I was like, I really, like, need to branch out. I need to make new friends. And, like, that's the year you and I became good friends. That's the year Sam Sanders and I really became friends. I think that's the year. No, the next year, it was years. Chelsea DeVontes and I became friends. So it's like, I really. And I love that, and I, like. So I think the thing I'm the most proud of is I have all these great people, and they've all met and, like, become friends with each other. And now with Cake Party, like, I had a friend at Cake Party this

last weekend who was the first time

she came, but I met her through another friend who's a new friend. Like, so I don't know. That I think is, like, my most proud accomplishment. And I feel very special to have so many people and to have the skills and the interest of wanting to make new friends, because so many people, as they get older are like, new friends.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, it's not even that you just make new friends. It's that you make good new friends. I know the people that you just named who I think are equally incredible. Anybody I have met through you has been great. And the cake party that I went to, I didn't even know you knew someone who I had just met. And it's like, you know, and I was.

[Sam Sanders]

Wait, who was it?

[Rachel Lindsay]

Christiana. Oh.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Christiana is how I met the friend who came to this most recent one.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah. And when I. When that connects, I'm always like, okay, I'm on the right path in where I should be. But I think that that' a testament to you. You're not just anybody can go out and meet new people, but you're actually making friends, establishing relationships, and creating a community. And to your point, I don't think I realized how important community was until I moved to la, where I had no family and I really was starting over. I mean, I guess I had a husband, but, you know, we all know how that played out. And I. And then from the divorce, how my community came together for me, and it just made me realize how important those other relationships are when you know the people you grew up with or you spent the most time with or, you know, you don't have right next to you anymore. So I'm gonna ask you, then the opposite of that, since that response was gathering people and collecting.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What is something that you've let go of that you feel has made your life better?

[Tracy Thomas]

You know what I'm working on letting go of? And this is like a work in progress because I'm so competitive. I'm really trying to work on letting go of jealousy.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Are you a j.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's a hard.

Are you a jealous person?

I'm. I'm very jealous. I'm usually able to sort of convert it into just like, total, like, competition work ethic. Like, I can usually turn my jealousy into something productive, but sometimes I really do get jealous.

[Rachel Lindsay]

In what way?

[Tracy Thomas]

I am everything.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I've never felt this sentiment from you.

[Becca Tobin]

Really?

[Rachel Lindsay]

If you gave me three emotions and it was like, two truths and a lie, I would be like, not jealousy.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, I'm so jealous.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You do a great job of hiding it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you know what I.

Okay, so this is what I've been trying to work on, is that I feel it. And I think, like, it's just information. Okay. And I try to be like, okay, I obviously want that thing that I didn't know that I wanted or, like, whatever. But I also try to, like, if it's someone that I love, I'm feeling that about. I really try hard to be like. But I'm excited for them because they're doing something that's great. And I try to tell them, like,

[Becca Tobin]

oh, you know, this is like, a stupid example.

[Tracy Thomas]

This isn't real. I'm just making this up. But, like, if you. If you showed up and you, like, looked amazing, and I was Feeling bad about my body. And I, like, looked at you, and I was like, rachel's so hot. Like, I hate it.

[Becca Tobin]

I want to die.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I would say to you, rachel, you look amazing today. Like, you look so good.

[Becca Tobin]

Like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Or whatever.

Because what I'm feeling is jealousy.

But what it really is is, like,

I want something that you have, but, like, you probably are feeling shitty about yourself sometimes. And, like, it might just be nice to know that, like, whatever you're doing is working. Or, like, however you're feeling is working. And I think some of this I started working on when I stopped being an actor. And a lot of my friends were, like, getting really successful in theater. And at first I was feeling like, oh, you failed.

But now I'm like, oh, my God.

I get to go to Broadway and see, like, the seven best shows on Broadway every season. And my friends are winning Tonys and, like, whatever. But I still feel the jealousy sometimes. And so that's the thing I try to, like, let go of. Cause it's not something I can control.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I think that that's such a vulnerable and honest answer. And I think that so many people who are listening to this are gonna relate. Because maybe sometimes I think it's hard to identify the emotion that you're feeling. And when you do, I think that it allows you to free yourself from it. And I think that someone listening to this is gonna be like, wow, maybe that's what I would do. And this is why I don't think I've never felt your jealousy. Because to me, you might say, like, oh, I like, I need to shop in your closet. I like what you're wearing. Help me with styling. And I'm like, great. You can borrow whatever you want. I'll literally give you the key when I'm not here. Go have fun. And I think because you're not giving jealous energy, like, you're turning it into something else, which I think is a really, really positive tool. Like, you may feel it, but I promise you, you do not execute it by any means. But I just love the way that you phrase that, because I think. I think it's honest, too. Because people look at you and they think. They see your success. They see what you have. And like you said, you know, they. You might be going through something, but they see you as something else. And that's a real thing. Especially with social media, especially. I do the same thing. To be very honest with you, Tracy, like, I look at what people are doing, and I'm like, why didn't I get that or why do they have that? And I'm like, somebody's probably doing that same thing with me. They're looking at me thinking certain things.

[Tracy Thomas]

And so I feel that all the time.

Yeah. When other people have success, like, in the same industry as me, that's really hard. That's hard on me. And I try. I try to be like, it's okay. Like, it's not for you, whatever. Which doesn't. That doesn't always work for me. The, like, what's meant for you is meant for you. That one doesn't quite work for me.

I don't know.

Is that a Christiany thing? It has a Christian sense to me.

[Rachel Lindsay]

It's an optimistic thing. That doesn't resonate with me. Me, I turn that into work ethic. When I see that and I feel it, I'm like, work harder.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do it. I'm doing that next year. I want that invite. Or, like, whatever. Or I'm gonna do the next bigger thing. I'm like, oh, there was a time where this is such a small thing, but there was a time where Oprah did, like, a book event in New York and a bunch of other book influencers got to go and they got to, like, meet Oprah, but there were, like, 30 of them. And of course I was jealous because Oprah's, like, my idol, but I turned that into, okay, but I don't wanna meet Oprah with 30 other people. I don't wanna meet Oprah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Well, she remembers you.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's not my goal to, like, sit in a room and have her shake my hand. My goal is to, like, be invited

[Becca Tobin]

to a dinner with Oprah or a lunch, you know, like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Or, like, have her on this podcast. But, like, at first I was like, I can't believe all these fucking people who don't even fucking love Oprah.

[Becca Tobin]

Like, I love Oprah, you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, I was like, really?

For, like, 30 minutes. And then I was like, wait a second. I don't even wanna meet Oprah at the Strand Bookstore. And no shots to people who got to go.

[Becca Tobin]

That's amazing that you got to go. And I would have loved to be there. And I' jealous.

[Tracy Thomas]

But the truth is, the thing that I really want is to, like, interface with Oprah.

[Becca Tobin]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And there's nothing.

[Becca Tobin]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Like, so you. You just. You shift your mindset, which.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, there's what I'm working on.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Mind over matter. It's such a powerful thing.

[Becca Tobin]

All right.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Looking forward. Because there's such. There's so much that the future is exciting. The future used to scare me, and sometimes it still does. But again, shift my mindset. What are you looking forward to in your 40s? What do you want for yourself?

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, this is going to sound horrible, but I'm just going to say it. Maybe I shouldn't say it.

Say it first and then we'll decide.

Well, like, I just, like, want to be richer.

[Becca Tobin]

There's.

[Rachel Lindsay]

In light of the state. In the state of our economy. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is a real feeling for women in their 40s. I was just having this conversation with my sorority sisters. Shout out to Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Incorporated. And my. My sorority sister Shannon, who you've met, was like, I'm tired of working. And she's like, I've been working for this long. It's like Charlotte and Sex and the City. Like, where is he? I've been dating for this long. She's like, I've been working for this long. I'm ready to retire. And she was like, I'm. How does she phrase it? I don't have time to look through my phone. But she called it, like, work. She makes good money, but not rich or something like that. And she's like, I'm tired of, like, working hard, having a good job, making good money, and I still feel poor. And I think that's just the sentiment for where we live in. So there's nothing wrong with saying that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I just think it's also very la. Like, because LA is so expensive. Like, it's such an expensive.

I mean, I don't mean. I don't mean so la.

I mean, like, we live in one of the most expensive states and one of the most expensive cities. And so I feel like there is a feeling about money here that is different than maybe if you lived somewhere else where things were more affordable. Yeah, but that's something I'm sort of trying to manifest for myself is like, there's nothing wrong with a little more money. What else?

[Becca Tobin]

That's so.

[Tracy Thomas]

That is. It's pretty shallow, but it's fine. I can be shallow also. Mostly. I mean, I also just, like. Can I say another morbid thing and then we can be done.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. See, I'm trying to turn positive. This is so. Go ahead.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, no, so, like, for my 40th birthday, like, I'm having a big party and.

And I just feel like 40 is

the last birthday that you get before things start to get sad, if you're lucky.

I feel like by the time you

get to 50, like, sad things start to happen. And I know that's like morbid, but I think it's true. And I just feel like I'm trying to like, enjoy. I'm trying to manifest like as much joy and like good stuff and like, And I'm not saying that bad things haven't happened to me before 40, but I do feel like, you know what I'm, you know what I'm saying? Last year I had like a really tragic thing happen to one of my very close friends. And I think about it a lot, obviously. And one of the things I think about is like how because of this, we got much closer. This friend and I and his mom said something to me. We were like at dinner, I was helping cook at the house with his family and his mom was like, you know, you guys are so lucky to have each other. And I was like, yeah, we've had 20 years of like so much fun that it's like you put in all this hard work to have a great time with your friends so that when shit hits the fan, like, you have all of that holding up the relationship. And so I feel like one of the other things that I'm like sort of welcoming in is like, again, back to this community thing is like more intimacy with people, more deeper friendships to like help carry whatever is coming down

community that might be shitty.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay, so see, this is what I'm gonna pull from that. In your 40s, you want intimacy, connection, joy, community, wealth manifesting. Yes. These are all wonderful things. And I want all of that for you too. Okay, Before I let you go and

[Tracy Thomas]

I want to run a six minute

[Rachel Lindsay]

mile, you said this to me before, which I applaud.

[Tracy Thomas]

I just ran a 6 16. I ran a 616 and I had a, I had a. Speaking of mental, I had a total. I got the yips in the middle of my, my mile. I stopped and I walked for like 30 seconds. So I could have done it, but

I had a total panic.

I was like, I'm going to fall off this treadmill. Like I had a whole full on I can't do it moment in the. I got three minutes in and just was like, I have to walk, I have to walk, I have to walk. And I like quit. And then I was like, you're not gonna quit, just finish. And then I finished and I got a 6 16. So I feel like I'm really close. I'm gonna try to get there.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You are close. What speed do you have to run on the treadmill to get like, what's the consistent speed.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's a 10 minute mile. Or, sorry, 10 miles per hour.

[Rachel Lindsay]

You're running at a 10 for six minutes. I can't do it for that. For 30 seconds longer than 30 seconds. That is impressive. I see it for you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. I can't wait. And then all that. Okay, that too. Okay. Before I let you go. Rapid fire. Really quickly. Really, really quickly.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

One word for your 30s.

[Tracy Thomas]

Fun.

[Becca Tobin]

Great.

[Rachel Lindsay]

One. One word for your 40s.

[Tracy Thomas]

Abundant. Positive abundance.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Didn't we talk about this word?

[Becca Tobin]

But yes, but.

[Tracy Thomas]

But Positive.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, because I once did abundance and I got bad.

[Becca Tobin]

So I want abundant.

[Tracy Thomas]

Positive abundance.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Restoration. That's what we talked about. Positive abundance.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's the word for this year.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yes. Yeah. Something you finally stopped caring about.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know. I care about everything. I stopped caring. I stopped caring about what size my clothes are.

[Rachel Lindsay]

This is important. This is important.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sometimes I'm a large, sometimes I'm a medium. And sometimes I'm a small.

[Rachel Lindsay]

And sometimes these clothing companies lie to you. Exactly. Exactly the age you feel on the inside.

[Tracy Thomas]

33.

[Rachel Lindsay]

If 40 came with a warranty, what would you want to be covered?

[Tracy Thomas]

My health insurance.

[Becca Tobin]

Right now.

[Tracy Thomas]

My bo. My body.

[Rachel Lindsay]

What is. You probably don't have this list, but I'm going to make you do this. I'm going to make you do this later. What is one thing on your 40 before 50 list?

[Tracy Thomas]

I really want to go to Morocco.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay. We're going.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Rachel Lindsay]

My girlfriend's just went. Okay. Tracy, I'm gonna let you go.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love you.

[Rachel Lindsay]

I love you so much. I'm so excited for you. Take that mantra. Take that joy. Take all the things that you want for yourself. Bottle them up inside. I can't wait for you to see all that you do in 40 and beyond. I'm excited for you. I'm excited and I'm so happy to celebrate with you and I'm so happy to call you friends.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love you so much. Thank you for doing this. You are the best.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Of course.

[Tracy Thomas]

Hello.

[Sam Sanders]

Hello.

[Tracy Thomas]

We are in the midst of summer, which is my favorite season and also a very fun season over here at the Stacks. As always, we are bringing you a ton of great new reads, author interviews and behind the scenes bookish gossip and chit chat. But if you find yourself craving a little more, consider supporting us on Patreon and Substack as well on Patreon, which is our community focused bonus content hub. You can join our virtual book club. You can be part of our private discord. You can read with us for our Year long mega reading challenge. Plus there are monthly bonus episodes over on Substack. You can subscribe to my newsletter Unstacked where I give my hot takes on books and pop culture and sports and food and whatever else I want on both the Patreon and the Substack. You also have access to my non fiction reading guide, but it only is available through the end of summer. So make sure you subscribe now to either Patreon or Substack or both to get access to that. And if you don't have a few dollars to spare right now, don't worry, there are free options on Patreon and Substack so you can keep up with the goings on around here. Making this podcast is a huge team effort and by supporting my Patreon and Substack, you allow me to support my team so we can all continue to work together doing what we do best, which is bringing you bookish content, this very podcast. So if you or your friends are looking to meet other Bookish people, support an independent podcast, come hang out with me, Patreon Substack or both. Go to patreon.com thestacks and Tracy thomas.substack.com and we will see you in the stacks. All right, next up is Sam Sanders. You all know Sam Sanders from his podcast, the Sam Sanders Show. He has been on this podcast. I have been on his podcast. I love Sam so much. And he came to the table table today talking about meeting up at the table. We have a conversation about food and hosting. And I absolutely love that Sam decided to use this angle to talk about our relationship and something that I hold so, so dear.

[Sam Sanders]

Tracy. Hi.

[Becca Tobin]

Hi.

[Sam Sanders]

Greetings from Truly the tiniest hotel room in Manhattan.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is it the Ace?

[Sam Sanders]

No, it's even smaller than that. I found a new hotel with really cheap rates. It's called the Little something. And I'll show you the room. That's the bed in the window.

[Becca Tobin]

Oh, yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

Bathroom behind me. And that's the door.

[Becca Tobin]

Oh, my God.

[Sam Sanders]

That's it, baby. Pack tight. I'm excited to talk to you and happy early birthday.

[Tracy Thomas]

Thank you.

Well, everybody's listening to this. It'll be my actual birthday. July 22nd.

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

Okay. I was really struggling over what to talk to you about because there's so much to talk to you about. I'm interested in how your career has gone through different iterations as you've been doing your thing. I am into you. As a mother, I am into you. It's just like a force in the world. But I Realized one of the things that I'm always not just impressed by, but like warmed and welcomed by is your relationship to food and your community. Like all the time. Whenever I've hung out with you, there's been food involved and always. And it's been part of some of my, like, favorite moments in la. I don't know if you remember this, but I was over at your house for Thanksgiving one year. It was the first year after my mother had died and you had me and my Aunt Betty at your house for that Thanksgiving dinner. And it was so healing and the food really helped make it so you. I can't even begin to describe your spread. There was a spreadsheet. There were. Your sister in law was involved. It was a to do, like describe your Thanksgiving spread.

[Becca Tobin]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

First of all, of course I remember that. Yeah, Very important to me.

Aunt Betty brought her famous cake. Obviously.

[Sam Sanders]

She did. Her pound cake. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, she did. So Sarah and I. Sarah's my sister in law. She was also the second guest ever on this podcast and she and I have been friends since we were 16 years old. So we, Our friendship predates her relationship with my brother. She and I, we love a spreadsheet. We are both very type A people. We love to cook, we love to bake. All year long. We send each other recipes. Not for Thanksgiving, but just like in life in general. And every other year we do Thanksgiving together, and then every other year we do Christmas together. So you were there for a Thanksgiving year and we start talking about what

[Becca Tobin]

we want to do like a month in advance.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's why some years we make our. The turkey ourself. This year we made the turkey ourself. Some years I outsource it because there's a barbecue place nearby that deep fries a turkey.

[Sam Sanders]

Bledsoe.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And I'm never gonna deep fry a turkey myself.

[Sam Sanders]

Dangerous. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

But this year we spatchcocked and then we decide what other thing we want to do. So this year. So that year, Sarah wanted to make these braised short ribs.

[Sam Sanders]

Girl, those short. I still talk about the short ribs with Aunt Betty. You impressed us so much. Both of us tried on our own afterwards to make those short ribs. We both failed. I ended up putting mine in a crock pot with tomato sauce. I think Betty was like, this is a lot. It was. It was an intricate recipe. And that wasn't even your main meat.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, but Sarah, Sarah was in charge of the short ribs. I can't take her. I was her sous chef on that. That. But so then we do that then we go through all of the sides and we're like, what are we gonna do? What do you want to make? What do we have to have the way that we have to have it? So those are the things Sarah and I make. Everything else we outsource. My mom always makes the stuffing because she uses my grandmother's recipe. And then Sarah really likes mashed potatoes. So I make the mashed potatoes. And then dessert, we always make at least one Sarah and I, because we love dessert, and we never want to not have a dessert that we love. And then we usually outsource a dessert. We'll outsource an appetizer. But honestly, like, neither of us really like to outsource. We just know that we should because people want to bring stuff. But mostly we make a full fledged Thanksgiving dinner and then outsource, like, extra toppings. Like, it'll be like, we're gonna make a vegetable, but also you could make a vegetable.

[Becca Tobin]

Like, we want this vegetable, or like, we want to try this recipe.

[Tracy Thomas]

But what I found out when I interviewed Sami Nosrat is that she sometimes will outsource a recipe to the person. So not only will she be like, you're making green beans, but she'll be like, you're making these green beans.

[Sam Sanders]

That's Samin. That is very Samin. She's the friend.

[Tracy Thomas]

I might start doing that.

[Becca Tobin]

I'm like, tell them what you want.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, if you don't, I always say to people, if there's something that you need to have to make it feel like Thanksgiving, that's what you should bring. But if they say, well, I don't know, then I'm like, I. I'm like, well, maybe do, like, a green vegetable. But now I'm gonna be like, do these asparagus.

[Sam Sanders]

Yes. Well. And this is what I love about the way you build community through your food. There are lots of folks who are foodies that make good spreads, and it is a process that's centered on them. And you walk into their kitchen day of, and they're making this great spread, but they're stressed and they're mean and they're yelling. And it's like you're in an episode of the Bear. Every time I've been in your home where there's a big spread happening, it's still relaxed, you're still friendly, you're still hanging. And I think some of it is because you do a really good job of outsourcing and delegation, but also, you just have the kind of constitution. You're not a Mean, chef, I want you to speak on that, because I've been in people's homes where they're cooking down, but they're an asshole in the process. And I gotta sit in the corner and wait until all of the stoves are turned off because it's like, ah, you don't do that. What is your secret?

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know. I think, because. Okay, I think part of my secret is most of the recipes are really

[Sam Sanders]

easy nothing short ribs, but.

[Tracy Thomas]

And the other part of it is that mostly everything's done by the time you get home, get there. Ah, that's what the schedule.

[Sam Sanders]

So you're doing it in advance?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. So, like, I make the Mac and cheese the day before. So when you get there and I'm pulling the Mac and cheese out of the oven, that's just the cooking it in the oven. That's literally putting it in for 20

minutes and setting a timer.

The. The only things I make day of usually are, like, the bread, but that starts the day before. That's also just putting it in the oven. And then the turkey has to be made that day. But again, that's like, you dry brine it, you leave it in the fridge for 24 to 48 hours, and then you just put it in the oven. I'm not doing a bunch of, like, you have to come in and baste and cut and flip and fly. Like, I'm not doing that because I. I like. The reason I like to host is because I like, like having people over and spending time with people.

[Becca Tobin]

So if I'm gonna be in the

[Tracy Thomas]

kitchen the whole time being upset, like, that sucks. Like, this year, I don't know if you remember, but we took the turkey out, and when we took it out, our meat thermometer broke, and then we were cutting it, and it was undercooked, and we had to, like, put it back in. So, like, dinner was, like, super delayed, and both Sarah and I were like, oh, my God.

[Kiese Lehman]

Oh, my God.

[Sam Sanders]

I don't even remember because I was

[Becca Tobin]

just hanging and chilling.

[Tracy Thomas]

You guys were all outside drinking, and we were in the kitchen, and it was just like.

Like, go.

[Becca Tobin]

Do you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, I don't know. I don't. I don't remember my mom ever being stressed when she was hosting, and I'm sure she was, but I also just feel like there's so much going on, and if there's, like, snacks and drinks and you get the right people together, it's fun. And also, like, Thanksgiving is family, so if something goes wrong, something goes Wrong. Like, if the turkey was really undercooked, we had to eat it later. Or, like, put plates in the microwave.

[Becca Tobin]

Like, we just would have done that, you know? Like, it's. It's one meal. It's like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I've definitely overcooked the turkey. The first year I ever did Thanksgiving, I overcooked it so much, and I was so sad about it because I eat turkey once a year, but mostly I just. It's not that serious.

[Sam Sanders]

I love it. Yeah. Also re turkey. Give yourself grace and space. It's the hardest bird to cook. It's a hard bird.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

It's difficult to make it tender and tasty.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's a dry brine, that dry brine. That'll do it for you every time.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot about the relationship between food and community and gathering. And I always leave your. Your things, whether. Whether it's a Thanksgiving dinner or a cake party you throw once a month or whatever. And I feel lifted, connected, and also full. What is your North Star in terms of the type of community you're hoping to build when you gather people around food? Well, you know, the thesis statement or the elevator pitch for, like, what Tracy's doing when she gathers folks around food.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sorry, I don't know if I. I don't know if I have a thesis statement. But the. My guiding principle for all gatherings, whether

it's this podcast or a.

Or a cake party or whatever, is all comes from Priya Parker. Who, you know, you guys together?

[Sam Sanders]

We did.

[Tracy Thomas]

Who's been on the show? Whose book the Art of Gathering is one of my favorite. Who's got a new book, the Art of Fighting Conflict. The Art of Fighting. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like, a lot of it is just, like, I usually put in my invitation. I try to set the tone. So, like, I send the email with cake party. It's a very chill thing. You don't need to bring anything. I'm making some cakes. Show up, drop by. Can't make it. See you next month. And that's what the invite email says. Every time. It's just like, hey, guys, it's another cake party. So excited. Come by.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, and. And it's not a bunch of stuff for Thanksgiving. It's a more detailed thing because it's like a more intense event, but it's still pretty chill. And I think mostly it's just, like, a matter of getting the right people together, and that does the. That does the work. So I think a lot of it is, like, in the invitation situation, as Opposed to in the actual tone of the event. But anything I do at my house is pretty chill in general. And also, I. I like bringing people together. So I think. I also think a lot about, like, introducing people and connecting people. And, like, if I. If someone new comes to my house and they walk in the kitchen and we're having cake party and everybody's there, I try to introduce them and I'll be like, oh, you. You would know Sam, because you and Sam both know Priya Parker. And then be like, right? And like, try to kind of get the conversation going a little bit.

[Becca Tobin]

It.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I trust that the people that I know and love invite into my house can do the rest.

Right.

Like, I don't have a lot of friends who aren't chatty or curious or interesting. And so I think that does a lot of the work. And if I do have people like that, I might, like, spend a little more time trying to, like, make sure it's going or, like, pop back over and check in and, like, if there's someone who's brand new, I might spend more time with them throughout the whole event than I would Someone like you who, like, you know, a lot of people in my circle now, like, you're part of the circle, versus, like, your first Thanksgiving. I feel like I was with you a lot more than I probably was this year because I, like, you didn't know everybody. And same with Aunt Betty. So I don't know. That's. I guess, how I think about it.

[Sam Sanders]

I get that. What do you do? You know, Because I. You know how I do things. When I have folks to my house, I'm ordering the food. I'm either ordering food or bringing people over to, like, cook it for us. I had these wonderful. I just call them pupusa crew.

[Tracy Thomas]

That was amazing.

[Sam Sanders]

These lovely ladies from East LA that just come and make pupusas in your backyard. And that was my birthday last year. Probably the same for this year. So I guess my question for you next is, like, for someone like me who outsources food for gatherings, if I wanted to try a gathering and make the food myself, but still have a Tracy vibe, it's chill, it's cool. Let's hang. Don't get too hung up on it. Where would you have me start as someone who gets kind of nervous when more than one thing is on at once, when more than one pot is on the stove at once.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wants. So, okay, I have a few pieces of advice. One is that I also love an outsourced party. Like, I love a Pizza party at my house. I love ordering a pizza at the end of cake party. People who stick around, who have kids. I just make a bunch of grilled cheese and I just stick them on a plate.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Very easy.

[Tracy Thomas]

A BLT party. If you wanted to make something, that's a good one. Bacon you can cook in the oven. You can toast the bread very easily in the oven. At the same time you can cut the lettuce, cut the tomatoes, get everything prepared in advance, put it on a platter, get some spreads, easy, bam out. And then outsource the dessert. Get some cookies from Levan Bakery or whatever place you like. I don't know, I just came in

[Sam Sanders]

my head, but bougie fancy.

[Kiese Lehman]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I don't know. I just.

[Sam Sanders]

Personal preference. The cookies are too big. They're too big, they're heavy. These are hot.

[Tracy Thomas]

I ever serve Levan cookies. I cut them in quarters and put them on.

[Sam Sanders]

You got to.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then you can mix up. You can try a few different tastes.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Or like ice cream sundae is a great easy thing. You don't have to make a thing. You just buy some sauces. Maybe if you're feeling crazy, you make a caramel, your own caramel sauce. Or like you make your own strawberry, whatever. But like, who doesn't love to shake up the whipped cream thing and put it on, get some sprinkles. Like I think a lot of sort of like bar, like grilled cheese bar, hot dog bar, that kind of thing. Very easy. Also, I, I love to throw a part a pizza party and then like make my own salads or like make my own appetizers. So you're sort of doing half and half A salad is an easy thing because you can make a dressing a day or two in advance, put it in the fridge, you can do all your lettuce in advance and you just have to toss it together. So I think I live and die by the schedule. So for me it's like, what am I gonna make? What's the schedule?

Whatever.

Because I don't like to be stressed at the end. I don't like to be running out of things. Also, like pasta, like a big pasta, like a, like a spaghetti. Olive Vongole. Like the clam pasta. That's a really. It's like, it's like a lemon wine sauce with just like clams. And clams are pretty easy. You clean them, you put them in. It's like, it's a 15 minute pasta. But it's like, feels so fancy. Get a big loaf of crusty bread. Rip it up. Like, there's. I feel like mostly the best hosting is easy stuff.

[Sam Sanders]

I like that. What is one thing where you're like, never do that? One thing you see people do at gatherings and food gatherings where you're like, that was. No, don't do that.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know.

I thought I said so depends. I mean, I. If it's like a big gathering of people you're trying to impress or something, I would say never try something you've never tried before.

[Becca Tobin]

Ah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Unless, like, sometimes, like with cake party, the understanding is, I'm trying this cake for the first time, so if it fails, it fails.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And that's like part of the. Part of the whole point of the

[Becca Tobin]

party so that I can, like, bake cake.

[Tracy Thomas]

So if I'm trying to, you know. But I feel like if I was like, having a dinner party and then

[Becca Tobin]

I tried something and I was like,

[Tracy Thomas]

making something really hard or complicated, I would say maybe don't do that. Also, like, you know, never have not enough food.

[Sam Sanders]

That's the thing. Always have more than enough. You can eat it later or. Yeah, send it home.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm black and Jewish, so, like, we don't ever not have enough food. But I do. I have been places where, like, I looked at the spread and I was

like, that does not feel like enough food.

[Becca Tobin]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

I always my thing. And it's not even a personal rule because I'm not cooking enough for this. But. But when you invite people over cause you're making dinner, one thing that just sends the wrong message to me when I walk in your house is when you're like, okay, welcome. Stay out of the kitchen. Oh, yeah, you're in the kitchen.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I'm in the kitchen.

[Sam Sanders]

The kitchen's the focal point of the house. I wanna see you. I can help you stir these things and move these things. But, like, I hate the ones.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, you sit over there while I finish this shit. The only time I ever do that is at the very, very end. Like, if we're like, cutting the bird or whatever. And it's like I'm like. But usually I do it in a different way. Usually I do it like. Like, okay, we're about to eat. Can you go get the kids? Or like, hey, can you let everybody know? Like, if someone's in my way, in my kitchen, you don't have those bar stools. So if you have a seat at the bar, you can stay. But if you're walking around behind me, like by the sink, you got to Go.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah, yeah. You have unlimited budget. Any venue, any number of people you want, but you got to organize the cooking of the meal.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do I have to actually cook it?

[Kiese Lehman]

It.

[Sam Sanders]

You have to facilitate it. You'd be in charge of it.

[Kiese Lehman]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, I know what it is. A crab feed. A crab feed.

[Sam Sanders]

Crab feed. What is a crab feed?

[Tracy Thomas]

A crab feed is, like, boil all the crabs, and you, like, put the newspaper on the table, and then you, like, dump the crabs on the table, and you've got, like, the. A crab boil. Do people call it a crab boil?

[Sam Sanders]

Crab boil, crawfish boil, crab oil.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. One of those big, long tables. Tons of newspaper bibs, melted butter everywhere. Some maybe like, a big Caesar salad or, like an herby green salad. Tons of crab seafood. And then I. I think maybe you finish it with an ice cream sundae or, like, sorbet bar or something. Like cold, light, fun, fresh. Something like that.

[Sam Sanders]

You try.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's. That's a fun party. Do you know what I mean? Everyone's messy, you.

[Sam Sanders]

Until three hours later when I'm at home full of crab and ice cream.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is that bad for you and for your stomach?

[Sam Sanders]

The older I get, the more I'm like, dairy. We got to go. Careful with you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, that's why I said sorbet, too. We'd have all sorts of options. You could have, like. You could have, like, a. Sorry. You could have, like. Maybe. Maybe we even have. I have no budget. Maybe we even have, like, a snow cone thing.

[Kiese Lehman]

Oh, I don't know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Something just really fun. Dress code. Dress code. Casual. Very cash.

[Sam Sanders]

I love it. I love it. I'm trying to think what mine would be. I love the idea of a grill outside.

[Tracy Thomas]

Love a grill.

[Sam Sanders]

I love the idea of making pizza. And, like, one or two people are really good at it. And then, like, we all kind of help, but, like, we got some ringleaders. I have found. So when I've had things in my house where, like, the gorilla's ope open, the straight men flock to it.

[Rachel Lindsay]

They love it.

[Sam Sanders]

And I'm like, do some work, do some labor, and then me and the women can boss them around. It's pretty great. And they love it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Sam Sanders]

What has becoming someone who was good at food and gathering, what is doing that taught you about how to live the rest of your life?

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, you know, as they say in the musical Chicago, I simply could not do it alone.

[Becca Tobin]

You know, like, that's. I feel that way strongly about life, and I feel like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, a lot of the work that I do in feeding Everyone.

[Becca Tobin]

And having people over and all of

[Tracy Thomas]

that is sort of like life insurance on knowing that, like, I could gather with these people when things aren't bad. Like, I know that if I needed a meal.

[Sam Sanders]

Aren't good.

[Becca Tobin]

Good. Sorry.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sorry. When things aren't good. Yeah, when things aren't good. I knew if I needed a meal, I. I know there's a lot of places I could go to get one easily. Like, I know there's a lot of people that, like, I have invested my life into that would that will and do invest their lives back into me. And I think, like, sharing a meal in that way is like such an. It's just like sitting down at a table and talking and, like, looking at people and all of that. So I don't know.

[Sam Sanders]

That's how you pay it forward in friendship.

[Kiese Lehman]

I like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, because you're making space for memories. Because, like, those are the. When things get bad, I feel like inevitably the conversation turns, like, to the memories. Right. It's like, remember that time, like, I remember you saying at Thanksgiving that, like, Thanksgiving was like your mom's holiday that first year and, like, how important. How important those memories were to you. And I feel like when things are bad and sad, we turn towards our memories. And I feel like having people over and eating together is like, such an easy way to make memories.

Right.

Like. Like, I couldn't quite remember if you were at the asada, but you remembered. And like, I just feel like it's like we. These meals become sort of like touchstones in our lives. So I think that's important. I also think, like, food is quite literally nourishment and so, like, eating together. I don't know. I just. I'm. I was raised. My parents always hosted everything, so I also didn't know that people didn't other family. It never occurred to me that if everybody was coming, they're not just doing

[Sam Sanders]

this all the time. Yeah, right.

[Tracy Thomas]

But it never occurred to me that if everyone's coming to our house, well, then we're obviously not all going to their house because they're at our house.

[Becca Tobin]

Like, I don't know.

[Tracy Thomas]

So I just assume that you host. And I don't know, like I said, I'm black and Jewish and both of those cultures are very, like, come on over friendly.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's very different than, like, the wasps, you know, it's very much not the nuclear family situation.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah. I love this idea of food and gathering is like friend life insurance. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah. People listen. I Am. You know, hearing you talk about this, it just reminds me of why I value your friendship so much. It's because you are very intentional about friendship. You take it seriously. You think about it, you cultivate it. And I can see that in our friendship and all of your other ones. It's a beautiful thing. And so. So my only hope for you is that the next 40 years are even more full of deep and rich friendship and short ribs.

[Tracy Thomas]

And my crabs are so good. My crab feed. Now I gotta crab feed.

Yes.

[Sam Sanders]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I love you so much. Thank you so much for doing this.

[Becca Tobin]

This is.

[Sam Sanders]

I'm honored to do it.

[Becca Tobin]

I'm.

[Tracy Thomas]

I just can't believe we're friends.

[Becca Tobin]

So nice. So nice.

[Sam Sanders]

Happy 40th. I'm ready for all the festivities.

[Tracy Thomas]

Next up is one of my oldest friends, Becca Tobin. She is an actress who you might know from Glee. She is one of the co hosts of the Lady Gang podcast. I have known Becca since I was a freshman at NYU. I was 18 years old when we met, and we have been friends for the last 22 years. I am thrilled to get to have this conversation with Becca. Okay, everybody, I'm so excited.

[Becca Tobin]

This is Becca Tobin, one of my actual oldest friends. Friends.

[Tracy Thomas]

I've known you since I was 18.

[Becca Tobin]

18, NYU. You were there. I was not. I didn't get in. I was at another B squad conservatory.

[Tracy Thomas]

But you were my first friend who did, like, a professional acting job, I

[Becca Tobin]

feel, because you were really a white cat.

[Tracy Thomas]

And Cats.

[Becca Tobin]

Remember when you.

Well, Yes, I was 19. I was 19 years old, just a baby.

And you left school to, like, go do that tour. And I remember being like, becca's gonna make it. Becca's a star.

Little did you know, I peaked there. Really good. Nothing is quite compared to that experience as it, you know, that was my college experience. Similarly to you smoking hookah in, you know, Lower east side of Manhattan.

Well, you got to do that, too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Did you see the revival?

[Becca Tobin]

No, I have friends that just went and it looked very fun, but I, I it. That's what I've heard. I'm devastated because this is the season. This is a season of Broadway where I've wanted more than any time to get on a plane, get to New York and get. See a show every day or twice a day.

Yeah.

There's so much I want to see, and I am not going to be able to get there.

[Tracy Thomas]

I saw three things, and they were all.

[Becca Tobin]

What'd you say?

[Tracy Thomas]

I saw Ragtime with Brandon.

[Becca Tobin]

Oh, obviously.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then I saw Cats. And then I went to see Sam Pinkleton's Rocky Horror.

[Becca Tobin]

Oh, fun.

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

But Cats was the first time I saw a show in probably a decade that was just for fun. Normally it's like, I'm going to see so and so in a show or, like, I. Like, I've seen a lot of things

over the years that are supporting people,

[Becca Tobin]

but, like, I have not seen a lot of things just because I really wanted to.

[Tracy Thomas]

So that was fun. But the white cat in that Victoria or whatever, is that what you played?

You played the white.

[Becca Tobin]

No.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, I thought you played the white cat.

[Becca Tobin]

I was a cat named. Etc. Etc.

Oh, well, the white cat was the stole the show.

Oh, yeah, she always does.

[Tracy Thomas]

She was great. Anyways, this isn't about a white cat.

This is about me.

[Becca Tobin]

Happy birthday.

You are our star. Happy birthday.

Thanks, boo.

I just turned 40 in January and I feel like an elder and I have all this wisdom to impart, and I can't wait. But I brought some questions.

Okay.

That I have to ask you. First of all, how are you just feeling in general about turning 40?

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel good about it.

I like a birthday. I like getting older.

[Becca Tobin]

I don't. I don't have weird age things.

Yeah, I didn't either. Like, the anticipatory feeling of it was a little weird just being just the existential part of it of, like, whoa, this could be halfway through.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I feel like I was more pressed

about turning 30, weirdly.

[Becca Tobin]

Really?

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, I just remember being like, 30. Like, I know 40 is the big one, but I sort of feel like I do feel 40 in some ways. Like, I feel like I've lived a life a little bit, but also I feel like I don't know. The only thing I don't like about turning 40.

[Becca Tobin]

This is so stupid.

[Tracy Thomas]

But sometimes when people are like, oh, you look so much younger, I'm like, oh, thank you. Or not. When they say you look younger, when they say, I thought you were younger,

[Becca Tobin]

I almost sometimes, like, it's an insult. I'm like, am I so immature that you thought I was 12?

No, it's because you look the way you do.

[Tracy Thomas]

But sometimes I couch it in a

[Becca Tobin]

different way where I'm like, thank you. And also, I hate you.

No, no, no, no, it's not. You have a young energy, but not immature.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, I have a young energy.

That is true.

[Becca Tobin]

Young energy. And speaking of young, young energy. Okay, so what are you inviting into this decade and what are you leaving behind? And it can be something that you had, like, once had in your 20s, like a point of a perspective or just like a joie de viv, like a overall thing that maybe you lost along the way. Because I know becoming a mother was a time that I was sucked the living life out of me. And so it's. It was like a weird decade of the 30s. So it's like, do you want to bring anything in from 20s or you want to leave anything back from 30s?

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

So Rachel asked this question yesterday.

Okay.

So I'm not going to answer it fully because I answered it with Rachel, but yesterday, after I talked to Rachel, I went to a cafe and I was like, reading, read my book, and I. I feel good about my answer

[Becca Tobin]

for what I'm, like, inviting in, but

[Tracy Thomas]

what I'm leaving behind. I said something about, like, I don't

[Becca Tobin]

know, I was like, didn't want to

[Tracy Thomas]

care about, like, what size clothes I wore, like, because I, like, that's like marketing. That's like, that's like cut of a pants. It's not like my body, but the real thing that I want to not

[Becca Tobin]

have in my life as I move forward. And I text her this literally. I was at a cafe reading, and I was like, I know the answer, and the answer is boring people. I'm tired of boring people.

[Tracy Thomas]

I. I have friends that are boring

[Becca Tobin]

to me that I find boring. And I'm just like, I don't. I don't want to be friends with you anymore. And, like, I've known them for a long time.

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like I'd be friends with them. Or like, I meet a mom at, like, a kid thing, and I'm like, this is a boring mom. I don't want to be friends with this mom. And I like attention, and I like to be loved. And I sometimes will be, like, overly nice to someone just like, like, on principle, even though I'm like, I don't actually want to go out to dinner with you.

[Becca Tobin]

Like, I don't actually want to do a play date.

[Tracy Thomas]

And so I'm really trying to cut

[Becca Tobin]

the boring people out of my life moving forward.

I love that.

[Tracy Thomas]

And you can be quiet. You just have to be interesting.

[Becca Tobin]

Like. Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

I just don't want to have the same conversation with people every single time I see them.

[Becca Tobin]

And I feel like with boring people, that's what I get. So that's what I'm getting rid of. Goodbye, Boros.

So true. It's true. I actually feel the same way about. I think. Think now too. In. In this era, I can sit back and appreciate a big personality, and I Don't need feel the need to correct them or fix them or do anything other than observe. And I think before I felt this need to only be with people that really were so similar to myself.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Becca Tobin]

In the way that they go through life and the way that they, you know, live their life. The way they dated, the way they did all the things. And now I'm like, like, parent the way that you want. Be insane, be a big personality. But you're right, it's like the boring people have gotta go.

[Tracy Thomas]

They gotta go. And like, again, you can be like, you know, I love. I love betas. Like, there are a lot of betas that I love. It's not about being alpha. It's about, like, if you're a beta, are you observing?

And then you're gonna call me and

[Becca Tobin]

we're gonna talk about it for seven hours.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, you just have to bring something to the table.

Yeah.

[Becca Tobin]

So that's what I'm cutting out of my life. The Bora Us.

Okay, well, this is kind of in line with boring people. I. My favorite thing is when you talk about books. And I want to know the worst book you've read in this decade. What is one that just, like, poo poo. So stinky. You can never forget how bad it is.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm not going to tell you the worst book because I actually think it's,

[Becca Tobin]

like, sort of boring because nobody cares and nobody's going to read it. And it was, like, something that made no. No buzz. I'm going to tell you the two big books that have pissed me off the most in the last, last, I don't know, eight years since I've been doing the show.

[Tracy Thomas]

And they are Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Yesteryear. I can't stand either of those books. And what's amazing is they have the same editor, Jenny Jackson, who's written two books. And I've not read either of them. And I don't plan on it, but I really don't like those books. I think they are bad in different ways. And also in similar ways, I found Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow to be

[Becca Tobin]

so much hype and so much manipulation and like a basically fine but not

[Tracy Thomas]

great book that was annoying. And then I found Yesteryear to be a really bad, poorly written book.

[Becca Tobin]

Bad story construction.

[Tracy Thomas]

And what both of them have in

[Becca Tobin]

common that I think is what makes me hate them so much, is so

[Tracy Thomas]

many people being like, oh, you didn't get it.

[Becca Tobin]

They're actually amazing. And I'm like, no, I get it. I Don't like it. And like, I've said this before on

[Tracy Thomas]

the show, you could like things that are bad. You can like things that are low quality. I do. My dress I'm wearing right now is from Old Navy.

[Becca Tobin]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I. It's. I mean, I love Old Navy. And they have actually great quality because they still use real cotton. But fine. But, like, I understand that old. This Old Navy dress I'm wearing is not, you know, Vera Wang.

Right?

And that's fine and I like it. And Yesteryear is a fine, Lee poorly made book that people are entertained by, and that's fine for them. But don't tell me that I'm an

[Becca Tobin]

idiot because you guys like a book that sucks. Like, so. And that's how I feel about both

those books is Yesterday. You're similarly to, like, how I feel about the D list. Bravo shows where, I don't know. It's not good, but it's entertaining.

[Tracy Thomas]

So. Okay. My issue with yesteryear is different than my issue with Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow in this regard. I think Tomorrow and Tomorrow Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, like, get a new title. I think that that book is well written. Like, she's a good writer. And I think that it needed some editing and I think it was manipulative and I think it was made you want to read it and people liked it and they felt things, and that's fine. And like, congratulations to you. I think Yesteryear is poorly constructed. I think it is, like, not well written in the sense, like, the characters are not fleshed out. There's not a strong point of view. It's like her Christianity isn't defined. Like, the era isn't defined. And there's a twist that people are like, well, that's why. But, like, it's literally not why, but people, like, people do a lot of work to make it good. And so I don't like that because I like crap. You know, one of my favorite movies is Center Stage.

[Becca Tobin]

Like, right?

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, I like. I like. But like, Jody Sawyer is Jody Sawyer from start to finish. You're not like, all of a sudden, Jody Sawyer has her on her tap shoe, loose, right? She goes to the hip hop class and she's very stiff. She's learning how to get loose.

[Becca Tobin]

Like, it's part of the storyline in this book. It's like the twist is like, I

[Tracy Thomas]

don't want to say anything. I don't want to spoil it for people, but the twist is stupid. And then it negates, like, half the book and Also, I don't know. And I think the criticism is weak. It's supposed to be, like, this sharp social commentary, but it's mostly just, like, influencers are actually working really hard, and these, like, mommy people have assistance, and, like, they're hypocrites. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's a job.

[Becca Tobin]

Well, I have to admit that I started tomorrow, tomorrow, and tomorrow, and I didn't finish it.

[Tracy Thomas]

You did it. You and I have similar taste. You'll read a few. You'll read fluffier things than me, but it's very rare that you love something that I hate.

[Becca Tobin]

It's true. It's true. Well, that is flattering because you're. I do respect your taste a lot, but you also give me a lot of recommendations. Like, everything you've ever told me to read. I have. You've nailed it. So when I do those things on Instagram or, like, telling me what to read, the garbage that I get, I know I just need to text you because I just. It's. It's crazy the things that people say. Okay, if in this. In this snapshot moment of your life, you write a memoir, what is the title of the memoir?

Rachel asked me this.

Damn it, Rachel. Well, let's work through it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I just gave her. I gave her a mantra that my answer was, you remember Victor Self from Flywheel?

[Becca Tobin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Remember, his mantra was, yes, I can.

[Becca Tobin]

Yes, I will. I can do anything.

[Tracy Thomas]

And that was like. That was like, sort of the mantra

[Becca Tobin]

that's been carrying me through my life

[Tracy Thomas]

basically ever since I met Victor.

[Becca Tobin]

And it's something that I say all the time, whether it's like, jumping off a high diving board or, like, going

[Tracy Thomas]

through a tantrum with my child.

[Becca Tobin]

Like, it's like. Like, anything that happens, I'm just like, I can do it. I can do it. Whether I'm, like, running on the treadmill and want to quit. Like, so that's what I told her,

[Tracy Thomas]

but I don't know if I have a good title.

[Sam Sanders]

Ah.

[Becca Tobin]

I mean, I wish I'd thought of one before and I could pitch you some ideas.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I don't know. It would probably be something like, hey, everybody, look at me.

A memoir.

[Becca Tobin]

Or, like, I know I'm annoying, but. Hey,

Tracy and the Birthday Month.

[Tracy Thomas]

Happy Birthday Year.

[Becca Tobin]

A memoir by Tracy Thomas.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Oh, wow.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know.

[Becca Tobin]

The Loud Friend by Tracy Thomas.

You're so dumb. You're so dumb.

That could be it. You're so Dumb by Tracy Thomas.

But you're not so dumb. Okay. Well, I hope that Rachel didn't ask this, and if she did, I question quit.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Okay.

[Becca Tobin]

Biggest regret of the last decade.

[Tracy Thomas]

Ooh.

It's not like a specific regret, but it's sort of like a broad regret. It mostly has to do with, like, my inability to.

[Becca Tobin]

This is going to be vulnerable, I guess.

[Tracy Thomas]

Nightmare.

[Becca Tobin]

My inability to, like, believe in myself.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sometimes I feel like sometimes other people

will do things where I'm like.

Like, I could have done that. Why didn't I try to do that? Why didn't I think to do that? And sometimes it can be, like, a really small thing. Like, I see, like, a real is,

[Becca Tobin]

like, trending and I'm like, oh, I should, like, make a real. And then I'm like, I don't want to make real.

[Tracy Thomas]

But sometimes it's like, pitching myself for bigger opportunities or like, I think in the beginning of the show I was, like, really nervous about money and I, like, was too scared to, like, invest in the show and, like, hire a this and that or like, whatever. And so I sometimes regret that I didn't, like, kind of put more stock into this in the beginning. And even still now, like, I'm always

[Becca Tobin]

really, like, I don't know, can I do that?

[Tracy Thomas]

I shouldn't do that. So I think that. I think that would probably be, like, professionally, some regrets.

[Becca Tobin]

Well, that's interesting because I do think that we share that. Like, we both have a little chutzpah, but we also have a lot of self awareness. And so we don't want to be the delusional people running around thinking that we can do all these things and have everybody behind our backs, facts, talk about how we are. So.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, because we talk about people behind their backs.

[Becca Tobin]

Exactly. And I know this is a poison of my own. Right? Like, it's just if I wasn't such a talker, I probably wouldn't have any fear about being one of those delusional people, because I wouldn't know that people out there like us existed and were mean and made fun of you. So this is all coming back to us being dicks.

Yeah.

But I will say I don't. It was totally. It was not a conscious thing, but I did notice, and I only just turned 40 in January. And I'm sorry I'm bringing this. I'm making all this all about me. But I have embodied a. I guess a higher belief, a stronger belief in myself. I'm less. I'm doubting myself less, and I'm actually doing a little bit more balls to the walls.

Okay.

In A way that I never could do or would do before.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, this is encouraging.

[Becca Tobin]

It's like, what do I have to lose? I look back and I'm thinking, if I had done that thing or put myself out there for that thing, what did I have to lose? Except for losers talking about me, nothing,

[Tracy Thomas]

you know, gotten it or whatever, then

[Becca Tobin]

they would have been talking and you would have been like, yeah, but suck it.

Right?

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like I just don't have

[Becca Tobin]

the, like, why not me? Mentality.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, I'm like, I could give you 20.

[Becca Tobin]

20 reasons why not me.

[Tracy Thomas]

I could also give you 20 reasons

[Becca Tobin]

why not the person who got it or who did it or whatever.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's my thing is I'm like. Like, I am too much of a critic for myself and for everyone else that I could argue in and out of anything. I could convince myself why I should be the president and also why I

[Becca Tobin]

shouldn't be the president.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, I feel like I could lay

[Becca Tobin]

it out both ways, and it just depends.

[Tracy Thomas]

And some days I convince myself in,

[Becca Tobin]

and some days I convince myself out.

I get that very. I. I feel that very deeply, but I think you can still have that awareness. But also, like, you just said, you're like, I also look at those other people and think, why you? Yeah, so if the people that are unqualified or suck or are lame are getting these things, you could be like, cool, I'm gonna go too. Because I could suck and you're. You suck and I suck.

Yeah, I definitely. I want it, but I suck at least as much as you suck. That's what I always tell people when they, like, underestimate me or like I say in my brain, I'm always like, well.

[Tracy Thomas]

Or when someone says something to me and they. It's like they're talking down to me like they think I'm stupid. I go, well, listen, can you just accept that I'm at least as dumb as. Like, if you understand it, I get it. Okay? I. I might not be the smartest person in the world, but, like, I'm as smart as you or I'm as dumb as you.

[Becca Tobin]

Okay, just give me this.

[Tracy Thomas]

If you get it, I get it.

[Becca Tobin]

Unless it's like, you know, my friend Chanda, who's like, a literal astrophysicist, in which case I'm like, I don't get it.

But that's only in so few categories that you don't get it. But you're right. Yes. If you get it, I get it. Okay? As far as moving forward with the decade, okay? Do you have any bucket list?

Rachel asked this too. I you guys at the same school of journalism?

Yes, it's called basic bitch journalism.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, I will tell you a different thing on my bucket list that I didn't tell her. How about. Well, one of my bucket list things that you and I talked about a long time ago that I have kept and held onto. It'll be in our 50s. These is when our kids go to school. We're getting an apartment together in New

[Becca Tobin]

York City so we can go see shows gajillion percent.

[Tracy Thomas]

We're getting a little. It's happening a cutie little one bedroom. We're gonna put our little beds side by side and we're gonna lay in

[Becca Tobin]

bed like, and just talk to each other and chit chat. And it's gonna be like where your apartment was in New York when you had that huge purple chair that you got from the flea market or whatever.

Oh my gosh.

When you were dating Colin to go across the street and get the Stevia pineapple or Splenda pineapple cocktail from that bar. Do you remember? It was like.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, it was like in that big pitcher and it was like vodka and

[Becca Tobin]

pineapple, but it was like sweetened with Splenda because this was when like Splenda was like the thing. And we used to really make it a splash. Love it.

Was it when you walked out of that midtown apartment, was it directly across the street? Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about.

And it was just like pineapple alcohol juice with Splenda. And we loved it.

This is important. This is why it's important to keep friends that you've had for so long because you are like my memory keeper. I forgot about that chair entirely. And it was almost my whole personality for.

Well, you brought it to la when you lived at our apartment in la. It was like taking up half the room before you found your own apartment. Whoa. And then you like spray painted it like gold. You like changed the color.

Oh, wow. It was lime green, but then I spray painted it gold. But it was always the purple croc.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. So that's your bucket list. Our apartment in New York.

Yeah.

I can't wait.

I can't wait.

It's going to be real, real babe pad.

I know. No boys allowed. Including our children.

No, Definitely not those boys. No. No boys that I have to take care of. I don't want to take care.

Only hot boyfriends.

Only hot side pieces. Only hot side pieces. Okay. The final thing is this is cheesy and you might have to get vulnerable. But I'm sure Rachel already asked you this.

[Sam Sanders]

Okay.

[Becca Tobin]

What would you say to little Tracy?

[Tracy Thomas]

She didn't ask this. Yes.

[Becca Tobin]

Okay. Little Tracy in the Bay area, she's like, 10, and you pay her a visit, like the Ghost of Christmas Future or whatever, and what do you tell her? That you're really excited. What are you so excited to tell her you guys get to do? And what's some good advice that you want her to have have?

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, moving forward, I have a few things.

[Becca Tobin]

Okay.

One, I would say we talk to the vice President of the United States on a podcast about books that we made up, which means nothing to you, but it's cool that we talk to the vice president, but also we talk to Ginger Spice. Okay. I need you to understand that, like, we are slamming our bodies down and we are winding them all around. So that's the first thing I would say.

[Tracy Thomas]

Say another thing I would say is,

[Becca Tobin]

like, along the lines of, you probably

[Tracy Thomas]

should shut up a little bit in

[Becca Tobin]

school, but also, don't really shut up, because, like, you're gonna talk for the rest of your life, and it's gonna be the only thing that earns you any money in your life, whether it's being a spin teacher or an actor

[Tracy Thomas]

or whatever, a podcaster.

[Becca Tobin]

Your big mouth is your only money maker.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then I think the last thing I would say is, excitedly, the people come around on Cats. You were right.

[Becca Tobin]

It's a fantastic musical.

I hate you.

It's true. I'm the only person who liked Cats six years ago. Okay. In the whole country, it was just me liking Cats, alone, by myself, listening to Mungo Jerry and Rumple Teaser. When I went to see it, I went with Sam Bingleton and Chris Ford

[Tracy Thomas]

and Sam's husband Andrew.

Mungo Jerry and Rumpel Tees are an extra. Okay.

[Becca Tobin]

You're so weird. Okay.

I was sitting with that. I was sitting with Sam. It's like Tony voting season.

[Tracy Thomas]

Chris and Andrew are in the balcony.

[Becca Tobin]

I'm sitting down low with Sam.

[Tracy Thomas]

He's like, I want to sit next to you.

[Becca Tobin]

I want to see you see the show. Because he knows I love it.

[Tracy Thomas]

And we're in the opening number, and

[Becca Tobin]

they're like political cats, Whatever.

[Tracy Thomas]

And Sam just turns me goes, you really do know every word. And I just look at him.

[Becca Tobin]

I said, do.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you think I'm a liar?

[Becca Tobin]

It's like, I know every word.

See, this is your. This is your yester year.

This is my yesteryear.

This is yesteryear because I am trying so hard to see. I mean, I hated that show so much, I would sometimes fall asleep on the stage, take a little cat nap. Pun intended. During those long, weird fucking songs that we all.

[Tracy Thomas]

The weirdest, worst songs from the original are the best songs in the revival, like Gus the Theater Cat is phenomenal. Skimble Shanks, the Railway Cat. Unmatched. The worst numbers are, like, Mistoffeles. It's crazy. It's crazy.

[Becca Tobin]

They've totally was, like, the sexiest number.

[Tracy Thomas]

I know now it's not.

[Becca Tobin]

It could have been because it was the only straight dude who played it. That might have been why I felt.

[Tracy Thomas]

Was that no. Or was that Rum Tum Tugger?

[Becca Tobin]

No, it was. Mistoffeles was in our version, a straight man who actually dated Emily Loftus.

Oh, my God.

For a long time.

[Tracy Thomas]

Was she in that show?

[Becca Tobin]

No, but that's how I met her. Was. This is real. Inside baseball. Inside theater was through doing the show with her boyfriend, but he was Mr. Mistoffelees. And it was quite sexual. The performance.

[Tracy Thomas]

Cats, Layers, babe, all sorts of cats. Political cats, majestical cats, metaphorical cats, categorical cats.

[Becca Tobin]

This is by far the most off brand thing about you.

By far, like, the dumbest. And you know that's true.

I know. I know. But you always shock me. Well, Tracy, I love you so much.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love you so much.

[Becca Tobin]

I cannot believe that we've known each other for over 20 years, 22 years, and we both have really landed on our feet, shall we say, unintended? I love you.

I love you. I love you. I love you. Thank you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Last up, you all know him. You all love him. He is one of my absolute favorite authors and favorite human, someone that I have met through this podcast whose work has meant so much to me and whose friendship has meant even more. That's right. I am talking about Kiese Lehman, author of Heavy Friend of the show, cultural commentator all around. Stand up, dude. Kia. Say, Lehman.

[Kiese Lehman]

Hey, are you doing. Can I start?

[Becca Tobin]

You can start.

[Kiese Lehman]

Oh, my goodness. Hey, what up, y'?

[Sam Sanders]

All?

[Kiese Lehman]

The countdown got me shook. I'm so happy to be here. Listen, I thought a lot about how to ask Tracy questions. That one, I really want to know answers to two that I think y' all would really want to know. Answers. Answers to. And so you had to comb through the stacks, like, you know, like the stacks to see what Tracy does. Well, what she does. But also what makes Tracy kind of, like, uncomfortable. Because I wanted to get a lot of those questions in.

[Becca Tobin]

Oh, my God.

[Kiese Lehman]

So I don't know if I'm gonna do it or not. But what I want to talk about.

[Becca Tobin]

I'm nervous. I'm, like, literally blushing and snapping at the same time.

[Kiese Lehman]

This is just. This is the problem with talk. You just hype it. But I want to, like, live in that space you encourage, like, like, writers and. And. And creators to make on your show of, like, you know, I'm most interested when people start talking about what they like and love and obviously what they hate. But I want to do it a different way.

[Becca Tobin]

Okay.

[Kiese Lehman]

I want to start with, like, the perfect morning for you in July. Perfect morning. Perfect. Like, what time are you waking up? I have. I have all my questions, sessions. What time are you waking up? What are you doing as perfect. What's the perfect morning for Tracy?

[Tracy Thomas]

Is this a perfect morning that I'm creating out of thin air or a perfect version of a morning that I would actually have?

[Kiese Lehman]

This is a perfect version of the morning you're creating out of thin air.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Kiese Lehman]

Like, okay, this is. This is. This is completely ideal. Like, you, like, you're not bound by anything.

[Becca Tobin]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I am on vacation where. Well, just important that I'm in a nice hotel. That's what the real. That's what's important. I'm in a nice hotel with, like, very comfy cold sheets, a nice big blankie, actual blackout shades that work. Okay. Oh, with a good robe.

[Becca Tobin]

A good robe.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love a rope.

[Kiese Lehman]

What's a good robe, though, for you?

[Tracy Thomas]

The sleeves are long enough because I have long arms. I hate when the sleeves are short. Not too heavy. But I do like that material that's

[Becca Tobin]

sort of like, smooth.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, not like a waffle print, personally, but not like full terry cloth. It's like that, like, micro fibery.

[Becca Tobin]

I don't know. It's like.

[Kiese Lehman]

Okay.

[Becca Tobin]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Sam Sanders]

Yes.

[Becca Tobin]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then I wake up and there is a tea situation in the hotel room. Whether that means I. They have, like, a kettle and I can just make my own hot water. I can even have my own tea bag. Bags. I have a little half and half in the fridge. Not the little plastic cups, but, like, I have, like, a bottle of half and half, so I can, like, have good half and half and some sugar. Big windows. Let's say we're overlooking maybe the beach or, like, beautiful mountain. Something like, nice that I can look at, but I don't actually have to go be outside in would be great, though. I do like a balcony and then I can read for a while. Obviously my kids Are not there. I wake up on my own, nobody saying, mommy, mommy. And then I read while. And then maybe I put on, like, maybe I take a shower because it's my perfect day, so I'm not in a rush. Take a shower, right? I put on, like, a dress, like a summer dress. I love a summer dress. And then I, like, go out. Let's say we're in, like, Paris, and I go out into town and have my little book, my little tote bag, and my water bottle is all full. And I go and I have more tea and, like, a delicious croissant situation. Then I walk around some more, and then I get ice cream in the morning because it's my perfect day.

[Becca Tobin]

How's that?

[Kiese Lehman]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, and it's not too hot, but it's not cold. I don't like to be cold, but I also don't want to be too hot because I sweat quickly.

[Becca Tobin]

So I would like it to be, like, 672 degrees.

[Tracy Thomas]

Feels perfect.

[Kiese Lehman]

Okay, that answer gives me a great foundation for everything I want to ask. Okay, so you know, in that perfect day, you're still spending time alone with books?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Kiese Lehman]

Why?

[Tracy Thomas]

Because I so rarely get to.

[Becca Tobin]

Because my kids are so annoying.

[Kiese Lehman]

That's a great point.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, I just.

How.

I mean, I. It's just very hard for me now. I used to always wake up and read, but now I usually have things. You have to make lunch and pack a backpack and fill up the water bottles. So the idea that I could just, like, wake up and, like, read a little bit and, like, open my windows and read and then, like, go out into the world and read, Start my day reading. That sounds really good to me.

[Kiese Lehman]

Me and, you know, one of the reasons I wanted to start, like, how. Wondering how you would start the day. I mean, I thought we would. We would get to reading, but, you know, I. I think a lot of us have questions about how much you love the work. We get to see you. You know, we. We see. We see the production of it, right? Like, it appears that we. We're all in your life, and we're right next to you. So I think whatever you do, you do a great job of making us appear. And, like, you really love it. But the reading of the books, the reading, the listening, the. The preparation. What is the most enjoyable part of that? If it's a bad book. If it's a bad book, if the

[Tracy Thomas]

book is actually bad and they're. There are guests on the show, and I really don't like the book. Is that what you're saying, yeah, yeah, that's not so enjoyable.

[Kiese Lehman]

Okay. Sorry.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's okay. No, I just do. I like. I like reading. I like to read, read. I don't. I. Despite what everyone might think about me, and maybe this is my own fault for letting people think this or telling people that this is true. I don't like to dislike things. Like, I don't ever want to read a book or go into something being like, I'm gonna hate this or, like, I hate this. For the most part, if I don't like something, I don't finish it. Usually if I'm reading a book for the show and I don't really like it, there is a reason why I still want to have the guest on. So maybe they're, like, an interesting person. Maybe they're a person that I admire. Maybe the topic I'm very interested in, but I don't think the book is particularly good. So in those cases, like, it's. It's an exercise in coming up with questions and, like, trying to figure out how can I frame this in a proper way, But I don't. That's not nearly as fun for me or as enjoyable for me as, like, loving a book and getting to, like, talk to the author about that. That is fun.

[Kiese Lehman]

Absolutely.

[Becca Tobin]

Yeah.

[Kiese Lehman]

And. And, you know, you. You literally. People always talk about taste making. Like, you obviously, like, made yourself into a tastemaker for yourself and like us, but we were talking off this one time and we were talking about how we were talking about a particular genre, like, which I write in. And, like, I think one of us was like, yo, it's rough out there for that genre right now. And I think both of us agreed it's rough out there, not just in terms of people desire, but it just appeared that, like, there weren't a lot of dope memoirs, for example. Right. And then one of the questions I think you posed, like, and I just started thinking about was like, I wonder how much of, like, our writerly readerly taste is shaped by culture. Right. It's shaped by what's happening in the world. And so I wonder, have you thought of any more about that question, particularly around memoir? I'm kind of putting you on the spot and, like, whether or not it's the world that has influenced what appears to be sort of, you know, people appear to be less interested in general in, like, memoir, unless it's, like, the celebrity one everybody sort of fucks with a little bit. But, like, what is it for you, if anything, that, like, makes you. Makes your taste change? Over time. Because I remember there's one point when you were just like, yeah, like, I would say memoir. And then there was definitely a point. You're like, yo, memoirs ain't really hitting right now.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm out on memoir still. It's been like a year and a

half or two years.

Years.

[Becca Tobin]

Is it?

[Kiese Lehman]

Tell me what you think it is.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think it's a few things. Okay. I think part of it is your fault in the sense that you wrote

[Becca Tobin]

a memoir that was so good, and

[Tracy Thomas]

a lot of people have tried to copy you and are not. Either they. They don't have the chops to do it, or. Or they don't have the life story to tell. Like, I think part of what you did is that you took your life and made it into art in a way that I think sometimes people write memoir and they think that memoir is supposed to be reported non fiction. And to me, it's just not. To me, memoir is a form of art. It's like. It's like, I get. I don't know. This is gonna sound kind of crazy. Maybe. I don't. This isn't a great analogy, but, like, to me, in some ways, memoir is ballet. Like, it's like, you have to be, like, really highly trained. You have to be really disciplined. And I'm not talking about celebrity memoir, because I think celebrity memoir, we as readers generally give. Give celebrity memoirists a lot of grace. And also, they're not technically writing memoir. They're technically writing, like, autobiography hybrid, generally, because memoir is supposed to be about one moment or time or event, or it could be, like, about a theme in your life, but it's not supposed to be. Like, I was born, and then last night I finished writing this book.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, it's supposed to be like, this is about the time I was in prison. This is about the time my mother died. This is about. And, like, you can obviously branch out and tell more of your life story, but it's like a stylized art form that is sort of heightened in the way that ballet is heightened. Whereas, like. Whereas, like, jazz dance is almost like, anybody thinks they could do a jazz dance. Like, give me a pot of a. Right. Like, it's not. Not everybody's like, I can put on pointe shoes. Do you know what I mean?

[Kiese Lehman]

Like, yeah, I do.

[Tracy Thomas]

Ballet is like a higher level of technique and. And rigor. And I think that a lot of people think, like, oh, I've lived a life, and everyone has a book in them. And so therefore my book about my life is the book that I have to offer. And I think that is true that people write those books, but I don't like those books.

[Becca Tobin]

So that's one part.

[Tracy Thomas]

But then the other part is I do feel like right now I am turned off by individual stories. People stories, individual. Like, I just don't think anything is one person. I think everything is all of us. And so a lot of memoir feels so nave, easy. And so like, this is my thing. And can you believe this? And I'm like, yeah, babe, I can believe this.

[Becca Tobin]

I've read about this story 50 other times. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that bad things happen to you.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm sorry that your father was abusive or you were bullied or racism. But, like, you are not the only person. To have lived this life and to sort of present it in that way is a huge turnoff for me.

[Kiese Lehman]

Right. And that's the artful part. Right?

[Tracy Thomas]

That's the artful part.

[Kiese Lehman]

You can. That's the artful.

[Tracy Thomas]

But everybody thinks they can do it, and they just.

They can't.

[Kiese Lehman]

And if we're. So. If we're in that idyllic morning right now, memoir probably wouldn't be what you're reading.

[Tracy Thomas]

Not close.

[Kiese Lehman]

If it's right. Okay, so. So we're, we're, we're out. We're. We're moving in that ideal like morning slash day, and I want to get to evening. Are you watching television? This is like, you don't have to, but like an ideally, are you watching and what time do you start?

[Tracy Thomas]

So I have to come back to America because I to be in the correct time zone and I can't do the transfer to Paris. So I'm back. I'm back in California.

Okay.

I am watching sports if it's on. So right now I am living this amazing life where there's World cup, yes, there is Wimbledon, as we're recording.

[Kiese Lehman]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

There is baseball at night. So I, you know, yesterday's match started at 9:00am California time.

So.

So I dropped my kids at camp and I came home and I had some work to do in front of the computer. So I had the computer and then I have the game on behind me and I'm doing both things. Last night there was a match that happened earlier in the day that I didn't get to finish. So I saved it to watch the extra time and the penalty kicks. And I had my book in front of me, but I ended up doing computer work because I was actually watching the match. So that's the TV that I've Been

turning on the most.

Most of sports. I really have not watched a scripted show in probably a long time. I don't.

[Kiese Lehman]

What about reality, though, right?

[Tracy Thomas]

Sometimes I watch Traders this year. I really have not watched a lot

[Kiese Lehman]

of TV this year.

[Tracy Thomas]

I gotta be honest. I've been really on my sports this year because also we had Olympics earlier this year. Like, it's been a big sports year.

[Sam Sanders]

Yeah.

[Kiese Lehman]

This is a setup from my. For, like, my. My.

[Becca Tobin]

You were hoping I would get you to sports.

[Kiese Lehman]

When I was at wondering. Wondering what your perfect day was. I wonder. I was like, I wonder if she's gonna watch sports. But yeah. Okay. Are you watching films at all? Like, in that perfect day, are you gonna spend, like, just two hours of time?

[Tracy Thomas]

No, I'm probably not gonna watch them.

[Kiese Lehman]

So in your perfect day, we got you doing some reading.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Kiese Lehman]

We got you watching some sports.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, okay. In my perfect day, this is my ideal day. And it's in July. This July. July 2026.

[Kiese Lehman]

July. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Or any July or this July, because it's going to change my. Okay. In any given July, then. I'm also probably trying to go to a baseball game.

[Kiese Lehman]

Oh.

[Tracy Thomas]

Instead of watching a sporting event on tv, I would love to go to the ballpark. If it was this July, I would have a lot of money and I would go to a World cup match, but since it's just a general July, it'd be a baseball game.

[Kiese Lehman]

Do you think there was ever a time in your life, like, from the time you can remember going to see more movies till now, when, like, the ideal thing would have been like, oh, I want to really go to a movie with. By myself or with some money in my family.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I like the movies. I like. I like movies, but I would rather be at the ballpark, I don't know,

[Becca Tobin]

outside and like, hot dogs and loud

[Tracy Thomas]

and cheering and baseball. Like, you can't talk to people during a movie. Yeah, I like going to a movie, but I don't know. My brain is doing work at a movie. Like, I'm thinking about. About lighting and costume and acting and story. I'm trying to figure everything out and I'm trying to decide, why would that director do that? What an interesting shot. Oh, that's a weird. Like, it's not. I don't. I'm not able to shut off that part of my brain generally. And I can during sports.

[Kiese Lehman]

I love it. Okay, so film is out of what I was gonna ask. And now we just got sports and books.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Kiese Lehman]

The watching of sports, that's really Interesting. Like sports. When I say sports, I mean watching from television and also mean going to the board and then we have books, which is just reading books at your pace, at your leisure. Right. Okay, August, you got. You made this deal with some being and you get to either participate in the watching of sports for the rest of your life for $10 million a year.

[Becca Tobin]

Okay.

[Kiese Lehman]

Or. And you get to read books and talk about them for $10 million a year. If you pick one, you can't choose the other for the rest of your life. So if you pick the books, you can't watch sports. If you pick sports, you can't with books. Which one are you picking?

[Tracy Thomas]

In the watching of sports, I can go in person and I can also watch on tv.

[Kiese Lehman]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And in the watching of sports, am I also having to do work around it? Because with the reading of books, I have to talk to people around it, right?

[Sam Sanders]

No, no, no.

[Kiese Lehman]

The reading of books, you don't. I just. See, that's the problem. I think that you make the talking seem very joyful. I don't know if it actually is. But the reading, let's say you just have to read. This is just reading versus. This is just like the participation and enjoying sports versus versus participation and enjoying reading.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I can never watch sports again

[Kiese Lehman]

or read a book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Can I do other forms of entertainment?

[Kiese Lehman]

Definitely.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, if I pick sports, could I still go to the movies in the same way that I still sort of

[Becca Tobin]

go to the movies now, like maybe twice a year.

[Kiese Lehman]

If you pick sports, you can go to the movies. Because movies don't you actually, movies aren't in this. It's just like sports. You can't.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sports.

[Kiese Lehman]

Wow. Talk to me about that.

[Tracy Thomas]

I would pick sports.

[Kiese Lehman]

This is a felt.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love sports.

[Kiese Lehman]

Nothing is it. Nothing makes you feel like it, right?

[Tracy Thomas]

Nothing makes me feel like sports.

[Kiese Lehman]

That's what I feel.

[Tracy Thomas]

But also, if I can still watch a movie or watch a TV show, I still can tap into that part of my brain that I am tapping into with books. Like that critical thing I was saying, I could still sometimes get into the place that I enjoy of, like, why are they doing that? What's going on? Whereas if I'm only reading, I would never be able to tap into the live communal experience of sports.

Sports.

[Kiese Lehman]

Let me ask you this. So there's the reading that we both do in different ways. Like, you know, you do what. I do it. I do it sometimes my bed. I do it sometimes. Like my desk. But then there's the making of the thing. Like, do you Final. Do you find more joy in the reading and. Or like the making of the art, the podcast for, for us. Like, like the making of it. Like, because I always thought, I remember one time we were talking, you were talking about somebody who was really good at something but they, they don't make things. They never complete, needed anything and it made me think about like the sort of like holiness Sometimes I feel those of us who like make things, the complete things feel. It doesn't make, it doesn't. You know, you can make really shitty shit. But like do you get more joy out of like the making of the thing or that's just the reading?

[Tracy Thomas]

I get more joy out of the making of the thing, I think so.

[Kiese Lehman]

So, so, so then let me read. So if it was like you can never make like an artful like readerly podcast for people or you can never watch sports, would you still pick sport? Never. Would you still.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, because the making of the thing is still work.

[Becca Tobin]

The watching of the sports is fun.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's why I asked what I have to like make something from the sports. Could I just. Right. Like cuz sometimes, sometimes like when I'm reading a book for fun and I know I'm never going to do it on the show, I love that so much because I'm like all I have to do is write a few sentence review, right? And nobody reads those anyways and I

[Becca Tobin]

can move on with my life.

[Tracy Thomas]

Whereas like when I'm reading for the show, know it's a lot of work. Like I'm thinking, I'm trying to be generous, I'm trying to think about, I'm

trying to frame it.

Maybe I'm listening to them on other podcasts, maybe I'm reading other things they've done. Why is this the book that I'm picking? Why is this important to talk about?

Blah blah, blah.

It's just like a lot and then I'm reading and I'm taking notes in the book and it's like I'll be in a good section and I'm like, oh, I need to take this note and then I'm like kind of pop out of the book. It's just like a different kind of reading. Whereas like if I'm just picking up a book that for funsies, that is great. That is for sure. That is great. But like work is not great. Like work is still working.

[Becca Tobin]

I love the work and I love the making.

[Kiese Lehman]

Right?

[Becca Tobin]

It's still work.

[Kiese Lehman]

It still work. It still work.

[Tracy Thomas]

So and so. And also I hate the writing. I hate the writing, around the writing. I hate the writing now more than I ever did.

[Kiese Lehman]

Wait, tell me more about it.

[Tracy Thomas]

I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. It's so much work for me. I'm not good at it. I hate doing it.

[Kiese Lehman]

It.

[Becca Tobin]

And I hate that it's the most lucrative part of what I do is the writing.

[Kiese Lehman]

That's. Wow. And it doesn't matter that it appears easy for you.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's not easy. I don't like it. And it takes away time from the reading and the sports. And if I didn't have to write, I could probably watch more TV or like go to a movie, but I don't have time to do any of those things. I could like make a delicious meal in the time that it takes me to write something. And it's like late at night, I'm like, oh my God, my newsletter has to go out tomorrow. And I still don't like this. Like I haven't finished this and it's not good and nobody fudgeing cares and nobody reads it and I wouldn't read this. This is like, it's just like one of the most negative self talk spirals I have is about writing because I also don't want to be a writer. I don't like writing. I'm only doing it because it's how I make money. And like that is not enjoyable.

[Kiese Lehman]

But. But I mean, are we, does this mean we're not going to see your book?

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm not writing a book. I don't want to write a book.

[Kiese Lehman]

You're never writing a book. You're never going to write.

[Tracy Thomas]

I hope not.

[Kiese Lehman]

Okay. You hope not.

[Tracy Thomas]

The closest thing I think I could see myself to writing a book, and I've said this before, is like, maybe I could do an anthology and I would write an introduction. Very short introduction that's like, hey guys,

[Becca Tobin]

I'm not writing in this book, but I got friends who are fancy, but

[Tracy Thomas]

my name's on the COVID so I have something to sign every time I

[Becca Tobin]

go on a tour with.

[Kiese Lehman]

I hope you do that. That one thing you were talking about.

[Becca Tobin]

I know.

[Kiese Lehman]

Okay, so. So we, we skipped through the middle of the day just because I got too interested in like the, the, like the, the mechanics in the beginning. But let's say so we're, you know, dinner ideal. Any. So we're still in Paris though.

[Becca Tobin]

Oh, we're back.

[Kiese Lehman]

Doesn't mean that you're limited. You're not, you're not just limited to Paris food though. But like what are you eating? What did to watch, let's say, I guess now like all. It could be World cup, it could be baseball. You'd be watching all three at the same time. What do you eat? Eating?

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, French fries for sure.

[Kiese Lehman]

Well, but how, like what kind of fries? Like the long johns.

[Tracy Thomas]

The like, they gotta be like crispy on the outside and, and fluffy on the inside. Not too thick. Not like a steak fry. Never. If we're in Paris, I'm eating like a frite. But not the super thin ones either.

I.

They need to have a little girth to them, like a McDonald's sized fry. But in France, like fried in like a duck fat, you know, because it's like really like a real fry.

[Kiese Lehman]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm eating that if I'm in France. I mean, I'm probably having escargot.

[Rachel Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know.

[Becca Tobin]

I don't know what else I'm having. I'm having a Diet Coke if I'm in America. Yeah, you having what?

[Tracy Thomas]

You have Diet Coke if I'm in America.

[Kiese Lehman]

But like, how do you like it? Do you like it in the bottle?

[Tracy Thomas]

And I do not like a poured over ice. The only time I have my Diet Coke over ice is if I'm at like a movie theater or like at a, like a, they have a fountain situation. Like if I go to a restaurant and they bring out that stupid little bottle and then they bring out the cup of ice with the lime on it, I'm like, just take the accoutrement away, you know? No, no, out of the can either. Just straight out of the can.

[Becca Tobin]

All right.

[Kiese Lehman]

Dessert. Or, or is it like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, if I'm in France, I'm going to, going to get like chocolate mousse or something, or creme brulee or something delicious and ice cream.

[Kiese Lehman]

Okay. I'm having multiple desserts on like wonderful days where you can do what you want. Are you a eat in your bed, go to sleep type?

[Tracy Thomas]

I never eat in my bed.

[Kiese Lehman]

Have you ever? Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't like to eat in my bed.

Crumbs.

I don't like crumbs. I can't do that. I usually eat on the floor. I like to eat on the floor, like at my coffee table. But that's like if I'm just home. I don't know, I don't, I don't need my bed.

No. Okay.

[Kiese Lehman]

All right. And, and so in terms of like, like you, you don't want to get people too much into your business. But in terms of like, do you have like a pre Bed ritual that maybe you don't do enough of that you wish you could intentionally, like, do every night.

[Tracy Thomas]

I wish I could read before bed more because I usually fall asleep.

[Becca Tobin]

I get in bed, I go to get in bed, I always try to read. I. And then it's like two pages in and I'm passed out.

[Tracy Thomas]

A new thing I'm doing because I was having some calf pain is that I've started using my little lacrosse ball every night while I'm brushing my teeth to roll my feet out, and then while I'm doing my mouthwash. After that, I go to my little yoga block and I do some, like,

[Becca Tobin]

toe stretches and that.

[Kiese Lehman]

And that's been working for you?

[Becca Tobin]

It's helping.

[Kiese Lehman]

Yeah, it's a helper. All right, last question. So again, man, we're. We're in this situation. We start the day beautifully. You're at home, you're watching this sports. Escargot, fries, Diet Coke in a can before we go to bed. Now, let's say you go, you know, you don't like eating big crumbs and shit. You're brushing your teeth, stretching your foot out, and you're gonna go back to watching sports, because that shit is on all night.

[Becca Tobin]

Okay. Okay.

[Kiese Lehman]

Let's just say you have to get a knock on the door from somebody, right? And it doesn't mean that you want to, but who would you most want to end the night watching three different kinds of sports with dead or alive? Dead and alive.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, now I'm torn.

The correct answers. There's two. Sorry, it's my birthday. Can do what I want are my dad and my brother, of course, because that's who I grew up watching sports watch with. And I mean like right now with the World cup, every day at least once, but sometimes twice a day, there is a full phone conversation between me and my brother. Whether it's like, can you believe the

[Becca Tobin]

U.S. the bed like that, you know, going through every single Christian Pulisic.

[Tracy Thomas]

What a. Or if it's like, oh, my God, like, so many phone calls about Earling Holland, who's the striker from Norway with the hair that everybody's obsessed with. He plays for our Premier League team, Man City, so we know him and love him. But watching him on this stage has been so much fun. We're like, our child is all grown up. So definitely my brother would be like a live answer. And then my dad, who introduced us to sports and everything would be my dead answer.

[Kiese Lehman]

And. And if. And if your dad could watch one sporting event that he Wasn't able to watch because he passed past. What would that. Like, what. What would you most want him to have seen?

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know.

I feel like you probably got to go, like, a historic angle, like something that he never could have, like, imagined that happened in sports.

[Kiese Lehman]

I think that's hard because it's like, you know, what did he most want to watch is one of the, you know, about. What have you loved, what have you. What has shocked your body the most that you want him to experience?

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like I all. Everything's coming in my mind. Feels like more like recency bias. Yeah, but he really loved Venus and Serena, so maybe there's something with that.

[Becca Tobin]

He.

[Tracy Thomas]

He went to so many things. Like, he went to the Super Bowl. He went to the Olympics. He, like, he did everything. So I don't know that I would pick, like, baseball or basketball or. Oh, I know what it is, is this is so dumb. Of course I would like for him to watch Dusty Baker win the World Series because he never got to say. He never got to see that it is. That would be the one.

[Becca Tobin]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sorry, I didn't catch the. Didn't catch what you were throwing down, but that's. That's the obvious answer.

[Kiese Lehman]

Yes. Thank you so much for making space and time and walking through a day and getting a little. Little mushy. Mushy. And thank you just for everything you do and who you are. Fam. Like, and happy, happy, happy birthday.

[Tracy Thomas]

Thank you.

Thank you for doing this with me.

I just adore you.

And so this is so cool. Like, we're, like, friends now, you know?

[Becca Tobin]

Isn't that crazy? We are h. Thank you.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love you, and we will see you in the stacks. All right, y', all, that does it for us today. Thank you for listening, and thank you again so, so much to my dearly beloved friends.

[Becca Tobin]

Sounds like a wedding, but it's not.

[Tracy Thomas]

Rachel Lindsay, Sam Sanders, Becca Tobin, and Kiese Lehman. If you are not familiar with any or all of their work, I have a link to them all in the show notes for you. Check them out. Show them some love. Our book club pick for July is Behind the Beautiful Forever's Life, Death, and Hope in a Mumbai Undercity by Catherine Boo. We will be discussing the book right here on this podcast on Wednesday, July 29 with Julie Juliana Hobner. If you love the Stacks and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and you can check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcast, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. Honestly, if you join the Stacks Pack, subscribe to the podcast and leave a review, you would complete my item Ideal Birthday Trifecta. For more from the Stacks, you can follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram Threads, and Now we're on YouTube. And you can check out our [e-mail] this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Sahara Clement and additional support provided by Shereem Marquez, and our theme music is from Tagirgis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.