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- [00:00]
A
I went back and forth with the Fervent Whites as to whether I wanted to confuse or make my reader work for the answer or if I wanted it to be just slightly. Oh, of course, that's who did it. You know, as hello folks, the world has not changed very much and I feel like I landed on. I don't want there to be any big surprise. I'm okay if readers figure out three quarters of a way in that they know who's the culprit is.
- [00:32]
B
Yeah. Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracey Thomas, and today we are joined by award winning author DeShawn Charles Winslow to talk about his newest book, the Fervent Whites. This book is set in 1982 and explores the long simmering tensions that arise in the fictional Hudson Valley community of Fervent, which when former neighbors, the whites, return from prison with a vengeance after being exonerated of a homicide that rocked their small town. Today we talk about the intimacy of neighbors, black men writing genre fiction, and why desean has chosen to write three books with female protagonists. Our book club pick for August is Fish Tales by Nettie Jones. We will be discussing the book with Sequoia Holmes on Wednesday, August 26th. Do you like this podcast and want even more bookish content? Well, babe, you're in luck. You can join our community the Stacks Pack on Patreon. Subscribe to my newsletter Unstacked on Substack. In each of these places, you'll have access to a variety of perks, including bonus episodes, virtual book club meetups, exclusive hot takes and opinions. And by supporting us through either of these platforms, you make it possible for me to make the Stacks free every single week. So consider joining the stacks pack@patreon.com the stacks and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked@tracy thomas substack.com now it's time for my conversation with DeShawn Charles Winslow. All right, everybody. You guys give me such a hard time because you're always telling me how I don't read enough genre fiction. Well, guess what? I have been reading genre fiction and I just read a fantastic little thriller and I wanted to bring it to you. It's called the Fervent Whites and the author is here today. His name is deshawn Charles Winslow. Dashawn, welcome to the Stacks.
- [02:24]
A
Hi Tracy. Thank you so much for inviting me.
- [02:27]
B
I'm so happy to have you. I'm so happy this worked out. I have been telling people this is like the perfect little shot of a book. It's short, it's sweet, it goes down smooth. I mean, it's not sweet. It's like murder. But it's like, it's like exactly what you want from this kind of book. So for people who are listening, who ha. Who don't know about it, who haven't been listening to me talk about it, will you tell folks in about 30 seconds or so what the Fervent Whites is about?
- [02:54]
A
Sure. The book is about Sylvia Upshaw and her friend Fate. And they are a bit shaken up because their former neighbors have just moved back to the neighborhood after being wrongfully convicted of a murder. And some stuff went down while Ella and James White were in prison. And Seal and Fate may have had a hand in some of those things. So the White couple are a bit upset, to say the least. And Steel and Fate are afraid.
- [03:29]
B
And of course, in like the tongue, in cheeky way, the white couple's last name is the White. So we love this for them. It's very clear. It's very clear. It'd be confusing if their last name were black.
- [03:39]
A
Exactly.
- [03:40]
B
That would make it really hard, this book. Well, I guess. Why did you want to write this book and why did you want to write this book now?
- [03:50]
A
So for one year I lived in Socrates, New York. It was during, I guess, the early, early ish part of the pandemic. And I lived on a hamlet called Not Fervent. Fervent is the fictional hamlet. The real hamlet is called Maldon on Hudson. And it is a predominantly white hamlet, as most of them are upstate New York. But my landlords are people of color. And I rented their, I rented their garage apartment. And it didn't take me long to realize that we were, you know, we were very few people of color there. And I asked my landlord one day, are you. Are you guys the only people who own and live here full time, people of color? And he said, I believe, I believe so. And he told me about how some of the neighbors don't, don't acknowledge him and his family and some do and so on and so forth. And as I start to go for walks and that sort of thing, I started to notice that I also wasn't being greeted by people very much. And at first I kind of, you know, I shrugged it off as well. I'm, you know, they think of me as a city person who's coming up to invade the quiet upstate. But the hamlet has a little, a little park where people come and take their boats out onto the River. And those are people who live in the city and other places in New York. And I noticed that when they would go on their little walks, after they bring their boat in and. And reattach it, I would notice that neighbors would stop them and chat them, oh, where are you guys from? And blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, wow, they see me every day and they don't. So anyway, that gave me the first piece of the idea. Another part was after, I think it was in 2022, the TOPS shooting happened up in Buffalo, New York. Racially motivated massacre. You know, for lack of a better word. And in a conversation about that, that tragedy with someone, I can't remember who, but we were talking about how. How upstate New York is a lot like the south. You know, once you get up there in the trees and can be a lot like the South. And so I began to Google, for some reason, I began to Google, like upstate New York race relations, upstate New York, racially motivated crimes or something like that. And it pulled up an old article or several old articles about a serial killer named Joseph Kristoff, I believe was his real name. And he did racially motivated killings upstate and. And also down the East Coast a bit. And I was like, I've got to use this. I've got to write a novel. I've got to include this racist neighborhood and the serial killer. Racially motivated ser. And then I started to sort of put together a very loose plot with that. And then I started to think about family dynamics, you know, within my own family. My mother adopted two children and she did foster care. My parents did foster care a lot before that, and they had children white, black, Hispanic in the home. And so all of these things just going on and I just. So that's where the book came from. Like four or five different directions, a
- [07:17]
B
bunch of different things. But in your book, the town of Fervent, which also is a word I cannot say, I always want to call it fragrant. I know that's not right, but I'm all like. Every time I would go to spell the title, I was like adding Rs everywhere. I was just like, F, R, E, R, V, R, N, R, T, R, I don't know.
- [07:36]
A
Yes.
- [07:37]
B
So if I say it wrong in this recording, just. I'm sorry. But in your town of Fervent, the. It's a black town. It's a predominantly black town where. What did you feel like you could kind of do there that maybe like flipped your sort of lived experience for that year?
- [07:57]
A
Yeah, so. Well, the neighborhood starts off as a white neighborhood. And then when black.
- [08:03]
B
As they often do.
- [08:04]
A
As they often do. And so as the town. As more black people, not town, but as the. The neighborhood becomes black, white people flee. And so I thought, oh, what would it be like if after the neighborhood has become mostly black, there are still a couple white white households? You know, And. And what is it like for a racist person or a racist couple? What is it like to live to be the minority in a place when you dislike or even hate everyone around? And. And so that gave me something to. Something to play with, you know, And. And so that's why I have. That's why I have James being so awful and ella is about 50 awful
- [09:03]
B
mostly, but not fully.
- [09:05]
A
Right. You know, so that's where. So that's why I wanted to do the flip and have it predominantly black couple of white households.
- [09:14]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think what's so interesting about this book is it's set in the 1980s, which I want to talk about in a second. But it feels so, like, contemporary and so like, of this exact moment because I think a lot of the things you're talking about predate the 1980s and certainly, like, what we're seeing right now. I mean, I'm. I'm watching the news and I'm seeing this like, tragic story about Nolan Wells and his proximity to these white kids and. And his, like, sort of, you know, I'm not going to fully call it a murder yet because we don't have all the evidence, but his very suspicious.
- [09:48]
A
Right.
- [09:48]
B
Death. And the conversations we're having right now about, you know, the precarity of relationships across racial lines and intimate relationships with friends. There was a story a little bit ago about another black woman who sort of disappeared after like a sleepover with her girlfriends. And so I'm wondering, like, how were you thinking about the precarity of these relationships?
- [10:14]
A
That's a good question. I mean, I don't know if I. If I was. I think what I was drawing on a lot from was like, where I grew up. I grew up in a small town. So it's. It's not like we had an east side and a west side, but black people and white people. If you. So the road I grew up on was a long road. It might have been a mile and longish road, maybe a mile. And we did sort of segregate ourselves. 1. 1/2 of it was black, one half was white. But parents still sort of interacted a little bit. PTA and stuff like that. They weren't friends, but there was always a little bit of tension. And I remember an incident when I was. Must have been in the second or third grade and I had brought home a friend of mine, decided we were going to swap towels. I don't remember why we towels to school at that age, but we decided we were going to swap towels. And I brought his towel home and. And stuff. And I was like, look, Ma, I bought so and so's towel home. And. And she was like, okay, that's nice, but don't bring another white person's towel to my house. And right. At that age, I was like, oh, okay. It's not cool to be that intimate with a white person. They are only to go to school with and, you know, to work with and that sort of thing. But we don't. And so I think I was just playing on little moments in my childhood and teen years where I. With these racial. These racial moments were like, bam. In the face. And I thought about, you know, I thought a lot about my mom when I. When I sold this book, it wasn't quite finished, and she passed away like, three weeks later. And so she was on my mind a lot when I was finishing this book. And so I went and added anecdotes between two mothers and, you know, of scenes rather between two mothers, one white, one black. But yeah, I mean, in terms of precarity, what I. I don't know that I was consciously thinking all the time about them being precarious. I know that's a wild answer, but no, it's not.
- [12:23]
B
I just think it's like, one of the things that's so interesting. And I. And this book really made me think about this is like, how intimate it is to be a neighbor, even if you don't know your neighbors. You know, like, in the case of this book, this community really sort of, like, knows each other. They're very gossipy, which I love. But even if they weren't, you still see things like, you still hear when your neighbors are having to fight or like somebody wakes up earlier than normal or somebody's not around as much.
- [12:51]
A
Yep.
- [12:51]
B
And I think, like, that's already sort of a tricky thing to navigate sometimes. And then you add the racial dynamics in a place that is not particularly diverse. And so I was just thinking about how that works because there is such an intimacy to living near someone.
- [13:11]
A
Right. Right. Yeah. I think now I. I think I. Now I see what you mean with the question, especially in a small neighborhood where people can almost see everyone else's homes. So that goes you having an affair. That goes your teenager sneaking out of the window. There's all these things.
- [13:30]
B
Yeah. And I feel like, I don't know, maybe this is like a more modern thing, but we're so removed from each other these days.
- [13:37]
A
Yes.
- [13:38]
B
And like, in a way that Even, you know, 40 years ago in the 80s, like, we just were more involved with each other because we had to be. You couldn't be. You couldn't be involved with people thousands of miles away because long distance phone calls were expensive. You didn't have social media on your phone. You didn't. The most you could know about a person far away was what was on TV or in a movie. And so we. Even though it was more gossipy, which some people might not like, I can't imagine. It was also. It was also like more your business and more of your life in a way. Now that we've sort. We've become so isolated from each other. I feel like this book had some of that nostalgia in it too.
- [14:20]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I think. I feel like everything I write, if I'm honest, has a lot of nostalgia. Even. Even the stuff that I've written that was set long before I was born, I think I was channeling memories into it. You know, I'm a nostalgic person. I really am.
- [14:39]
B
You are. So have you always been?
- [14:41]
A
I think I've always been. And I think the reason for that, people have asked me, how did you become so nostalgic? Like, what. What makes you long for the past? So much? And I think. Think that's due to my parents and my aunts and uncles, because they were always talking about the grandmother that I didn't get to know because she. I was 2 when she passed, the great grandmother. And they. All these stories that it made. I think it continues to make me wish that I could just go on a time machine for, I don't know, a month.
- [15:13]
B
Yeah.
- [15:14]
A
You know.
- [15:14]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you ever do, like, your family genealogy or any of that stuff?
- [15:18]
A
Oh, my God. I'm obsessed with. I have an ancestry account and I have. There are months when I log in, like, every other day.
- [15:27]
B
How far back can you get?
- [15:29]
A
Let's see, on my father's side of the family, I've been able to. To go back until about 1830s.
- [15:36]
B
Wow.
- [15:37]
A
Because he had some early freed ancestors.
- [15:41]
B
Got it.
- [15:41]
A
But my mom's side, less so about 8, 1952 was when the oldest ancestor on her side was born.
- [15:52]
B
Wow.
- [15:53]
A
You know, and that's assuming that that number. That's Written down is right. She was probably guessing at her age, you know.
- [15:59]
B
Right, right, right, right. Yeah, I, this is. I've talked about this on the show before, but I cannot get very far on my dad's side. And it's like the saddest thing for me. And it's just like, we had, like a. We have, well, Thomas.
- [16:14]
A
Okay.
- [16:14]
B
Tough last name. And like, it's just. I mean, it's just, It's a hard one. There's a lot of Thomases. And also on my, My grandmother, she had. She's Creole, so she had a French last name. So it's misspelled everywhere.
- [16:31]
A
Got it.
- [16:31]
B
And so it's just got really complicated. The furthest back I can get is, like, 1900.
- [16:37]
A
Got it.
- [16:37]
B
Maybe. But I, I'm so jealous of everyone like you who can, like, go far back. I, I, Every time I bring it up, I'm always like. It just. It's such a cool thing to, like, know where you come from when you're a black American, because we just don't really know. And like, even when you can get pretty far back, a lot of it is just, like, speculation.
- [16:59]
A
It's like, absolutely.
- [17:00]
B
A lot of sort of fill in the blank. This feels right. This sounds like something somebody maybe mentioned. Like, we do have that middle name. Like, could be connected. Such a crazy thing.
- [17:12]
A
I know.
- [17:13]
B
Anyways, not to go on a tangent.
- [17:15]
A
And addictive. Don't get me started.
- [17:18]
B
You said something earlier about, about the Hudson Valley, upstate New York kind of reminding you of the South a little bit. Is that, Is that why you wanted to, like, explore that place more? Because your other book, your, Your first book takes place in the south, right?
- [17:36]
A
Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, once I moved up there and started to feel something similar, something familiar, I was like, oh, I think I can write a book set up here. And it wouldn't be all that jarring from, from my first two books, actually. And, and Socrates sort of reminds me of my, My hometown, in a way. But, yeah, I, I wanted to do that also to point out how the north or other parts of the country when. Are not free and have never been free of racism.
- [18:15]
B
Yeah.
- [18:16]
A
You know, and for there to have been a serial killer born and raised in New York, killing black people specifically, I was like, this is something right out of South Carolina or Mississippi.
- [18:30]
B
Right, right.
- [18:31]
A
So I, I felt like I had to, had to use that material and that I had to set the book in New York so that we can sort of shake out of this myth we have that Racism only or mostly resides below the. Mason. Mason Dixon.
- [18:46]
B
Right. I think what's. I mean, I'm a lifelong Californian, and I lived in New York for a little bit, but I feel like one of the things that I've learned through reading is, like, the racism, of course, is there everywhere, but it just. It manifests in such a different way because in the north and in west, it's almost more segregated than in the south. Because in the south, these families, like, grew up, were. Were evolved together. Like, you're like. Like I'm saying, like the last name thing, it's like, right, those are your cousins, even if they're white. You know, like, there is a connection. There's a reason y' all have the same last name. And, like, the schools and, like, the. The places aside from, like, the church, maybe it's just you're more in proximity right. In the south than you are in the north. And because the way that the Great Migration worked and there was, like, these influxes of black people to these places outside the south, it was easier to sort of segregate and push people together. And so I find that to also be such an interesting. Like, the. The racism is the same. It's just, like, physically manifests differently.
- [19:50]
A
Absolutely. Absolutely.
- [19:53]
B
One of the pieces of the book that when we're sort of talking about it, this place, this town of Fervent, it's so well developed. I don't usually use, like, the term world building because I don't read a ton of, like, world building books necessarily. But I feel like you really built this place and this community. Like, the people in it, they're so specific to me. As soon as, you know, you get a few lines about certain characters, I'm like, oh, I know who she is. I know who he is.
- [20:20]
A
So.
- [20:20]
B
So how do you, as a writer, think about sort of creating these worlds for your characters to live in?
- [20:29]
A
A lot of it is based on just personal experience and people watching. I do a ton of people watching. And when I was living in Socrates, most places were closed or you can only go and get takeout in the window and. And that sort of thing. But there was a coffee shop, and I'm forgetting, I think it was on Main street or. Or intersection, but near Main Street. But it was a coffee shop that would open and they. You could go in there. You had to. You couldn't. All the tables couldn't be occupied. So they had the mark.
- [21:01]
B
Right.
- [21:01]
A
Make sure people were plenty of feet apart. And I would go just a couple days ago, a Couple mornings a week, I was working on my second book, and I just paid attention to the people who came in, and some people clearly knew each other and. And, you know, and obviously worked in the same field or whatever. And some people clearly knew each other but didn't like each other. It would be good morning, Marge. And that was all Marge got, you know, and.
- [21:33]
B
Oh, Marge.
- [21:34]
A
Yeah. And so I would sit there and I would just come up. I was like, oh, she doesn't like Marge. Probably because they had a fight about something 10 years ago. And I would just make up, you know, and, you know, I dreamed up the. The owners of the coffee shop. Their daughter worked there, and I dreamed up that she was the gossipy, nosy daughter, which became the gas station in the book, you know.
- [21:57]
B
Right, right, right.
- [21:59]
A
But a lot of it is. Is my own experience and observation. It's how I. It's part of how I build a world. Now, fervent, I can say, I can probably admit I cheated a little bit because it's so similar to South Mills, North Carolina. So I did not have to create a world from scratch. I was like, I'm going to borrow some stuff from what I. What I've already done, then just move it to a different part of the country. Yeah.
- [22:26]
B
When you're borrowing from things like, whether it's the coffee shop girl or your hometown, do you consciously, like, write that down? Are you like, okay, Megan, Coffee shop girl. Like this? These are things. Or as you're writing, does she sort of just come back to you and like, oh, she would be a good fit for this, for this plot device?
- [22:46]
A
Yeah, it's normally. Normally the first. In the first draft, I may not be thinking as specifically about that coffee shop lady, but in a second draft, I may say, oh, why am I setting it in the coffee shop? I can. I can transpose that to a gas station. And instead of making up this character, trying to make up a character, I could make her based on the daughter at the coffee shop, you know, so. Right. So it's not always on. So I'm not jotting anything down, but it's usually on round two or three of the draft, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I could just use that person I actually saw.
- [23:28]
B
And how about, like, with plot, when you go in, how much do you know? Especially in a book like this that's like sort of a, I don't know, thriller, mystery. What do you call it?
- [23:36]
A
I. I think it's a hybrid of the book.
- [23:39]
B
Of the two. Yeah, it's a Thriftery.
- [23:41]
A
It's a thrift. Yeah.
- [23:45]
B
How much are you going in? Like, when do you know the ending? When do you know the plot points? Do you kind of outline it all and have an idea? Do you start with the end and you're like, how can we get there? How do you, deshawn, figure it out?
- [24:00]
A
I do a very, very loose outline. And when I say loose, it's very loose. It'll be. This is how the book will end. This thing has to happen in the middle, and the end will be this. These big three, maybe four major plot points, and I fill in the rest as I go. And that can be. That can be aggravating because you change your mind a lot about how to get to point from 1 to 2. And so, but yeah, I would. I would say with the last two books, plot sort of came first, I believe. Yeah.
- [24:40]
B
And then as far as, like, your reader, how much do you think about their experience in a sort of thriftery? Like, do you want them to solve it? Is it your goal that you've left us enough breadcrumbs that we figure it out? Or are you, like, if you see, like, a review and someone's like, oh, I figured it out. Are you like, ah, darn. Like, I really wanted to surprise you.
- [25:02]
A
Yeah. So I went back and forth with the fervent whites as to whether I wanted to confuse or make my reader work for the answer or if I wanted it to be just slightly. Oh, of course. That's who did it. You know, as. Hello, folks. The world has not changed very much. And I. And I feel like I landed on. I don't want there to be any big surprise. I'm okay. If readers figure out three quarters of a way in that they know who's the culprit is.
- [25:39]
B
Yeah.
- [25:40]
A
Because I am trying to send that message. This is. It's kind of Jim Crow ish, you know?
- [25:45]
B
Right, right.
- [25:46]
A
All all over again. But I don't want it to be. Like I said, I don't want people to figure it out. Absolutely. Until about three quarters of the way in.
- [25:54]
B
Yeah.
- [25:55]
A
I do want that to be a bit of a. Of a treasure hunt. Treasure, for lack of a better word.
- [26:00]
B
But yeah. Okay.
- [26:01]
A
Well, that's.
- [26:01]
B
I think, what happened to me. I did figure it out before, but not super before. Like, I was like, oh, okay. I see what's happening here.
- [26:10]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [26:12]
B
Okay, good. Okay. I did the right thing. I did what you wanted. I'm a good student. You are. Okay, wait, let's take a quick break. And then we'll be right back. Summer has been good to us over here at the Stacks. We have released the non fiction reading guide, we have celebrated my birthday, and as always, we have released a whole bunch of bookish episodes with authors and readers. If you've loved hanging out with us and you find yourself craving even more from the Stacks universe, consider supporting us on Patreon and Substack. Making this podcast takes a whole village and by subscribing to both of these places, Patreon and Substack, you allow me to make the show, to work with my fantastic team and continue doing what we do best, which is talking books. And when you join, you yourself get some perks on Patreon, which is really our bookish community. You have access to hundreds of other readers in our discord. You get to be part of our year long reading challenge to push your reading goals. And you get to attend our monthly virtual book club meetups over on Substack, which you can think of more as a place for hot takes and pop culture analysis. You get my newsletter unstacked over there. I'm giving you reading rankings. I'm talking about the books that are coming out and my weekly grown up show and Tell, which has me recapping my loves and my hates from the previous week. So that's what you get in each place. But there is some overlap on Patreon and Substack. You will have access to my non fiction reading guide from now until September 22, as well as access to our monthly bonus episodes. I understand that paying for subscriptions might not be available to some of you, and that's why in both Patreon and Substack there are also free tiers that can help you stay connected with the Stacks and get you some pretty cool bonus content. So head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks pack and subscribe to my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com. All right, we are back and I want to talk about genre because I don't know if you even identify as like a genre writer. I don't know. Some writers don't like that. Some writers do. I think. Some readers, I don't know. It's like such a touchy thing. But yeah, for me, you don't care.
- [28:22]
A
I don't like it. I don't mind. I've, you know, I have been labeled. I've been labeled a literary writer, which I disagree with. But fine, if people think I am.
- [28:34]
B
Why do you disagree with that?
- [28:36]
A
I don't. I Don't know. It may have something to do with what I compare my work to. When I think of a literary. I'll be specific. When I think of a black male literary writer, I think of the Baldwin, you know, Baldwin work and Ta Nehisi Coates, and just people with really, really, really high vocabularies and much more education than I have. So, like, I don't consider my first or second book literary at all.
- [29:08]
B
Right.
- [29:08]
A
You know, and I definitely don't. Don't think of the fervent whites as literary. I think of it as a thriller with a little bit more character.
- [29:17]
B
Yeah. I would say I was calling it a literary thriller.
- [29:20]
A
That's fun.
- [29:21]
B
It has a little, like. I sometimes think of, like, a thriller can be just, like, so plot focused. But like I said before, you build the town, you build the community. These characters have some depth up to them. They're pretty, like, well developed to me, which feels a little more literary. Thank you. But I don't. I'm so. I. I don't know. I don't love all of the different differentiation per se, but I also do find it helpful. Like, I think genre is, like, such a helpful construct, though. I acknowledge it's a construct.
- [29:52]
A
Yeah.
- [29:53]
B
But I feel like one of the things that I've noticed a lot, and I'm not sure if you've noticed it, and again, I'm not as much of, like, a genre reader, but when it comes to black male writers in the genre space, I don't feel like there's that many. Do you feel like there are a lot?
- [30:08]
A
There aren't at all.
- [30:09]
B
Okay.
- [30:10]
A
I can probably only name. Let's see. Walter Mosley. And I think his work is very literary.
- [30:17]
B
I think so, too.
- [30:18]
A
You know, even though his books are in the mystery section in the library and stuff, but Walter Mosley, SA Cosby. I can't see. I can't even think of.
- [30:29]
B
There's more. Who am I not thinking of?
- [30:31]
A
I can think of.
- [30:32]
B
Well, there's something in, like, the sci fi space, but in the, like, more mystery thriller.
- [30:37]
A
Yeah.
- [30:38]
B
It's sort of. Yeah. I feel like we're forgetting an obvious person, though.
- [30:41]
A
We are forgetting.
- [30:42]
B
I can't. There's like, somebody that's like, I was just talking about yesterday that I'm forgetting, and everyone's gonna be like, I can't believe you guys forgot.
- [30:48]
A
I know.
- [30:49]
B
You guys can DM me and tell me I'm an idiot. It's fine. You do it anyway.
- [30:55]
A
Yeah.
- [30:55]
B
I mean, are there any other one, like, people that you can think of that maybe like, we don't know, or. Or that have. Or even like some previous generations that maybe have inspired you or not even.
- [31:07]
A
I think partly Walter Mosley, you know, because. Because his work is so. Is so literary. Yeah, partly by Walter Mosley. But I'm also one of those writers who wants to try different things, you know, and that was something I was afraid about. I was like. Because all this discussion around branding and I was like, am I going to be able to after what I did with in West Mills and decent people and now with Fervent. What happens if I say I want to write a romantasy? Is the industry going to say no? Are you crazy? And so that's. I think that's the reason why I am doing some lane hopping because I want to give it a shot and. And I'll take the risk to a degree if I want to do something very, very different. Then we'll talk about a pseudonym. Right? But yeah, I. I like to change things up a bit.
- [32:00]
B
Do you think you would do romantasy?
- [32:02]
A
Not romanticy, but romance for sure.
- [32:06]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [32:07]
A
Okay. Okay.
- [32:07]
B
I love this. I love this. I mean, there's definitely not a lot of male romance authors.
- [32:12]
A
No.
- [32:13]
B
So interesting. I wonder why black men aren't writing genre because I feel like people like it, right?
- [32:22]
A
Yeah. And there are definitely a lot of black men who love it because I see the bookstagrammers who have accounts that are all fantasy, all mystery, thriller.
- [32:33]
B
You know, I mean, like there are authors, male authors who have white male authors who have made full careers of writing, like Dennis Lehane or whatever. He just does this kind of stuff. And like Stephen King, I know he does horror too, but like, he's not writing a ton of literary fiction, you know, so I'm wondering why. I'm wondering if it's like black male authors don't. Aren't as like, drawn to it, or if it's something within the industry that makes it hard to do it.
- [33:03]
A
I also think that it's possible that we put a lot of pressure. I'm not gonna say we, because that would be a lie. I don't do this, but I wonder if a lot of my fellow black male writer, whether queer or straight, feel that if we're going to write and be published, that it has to be serious work and that we are not allowed to write playfully. You know, I wonder that a lot. And especially when I'm on threads and I'm reading posts and the stuff that I agree with 99% of the time. But sometimes I think to myself, I would love to see you write a funny post, you know?
- [33:47]
B
Yeah.
- [33:47]
A
And I. And I wonder. I wonder why you won't allow yourself to write a funny post, because I have heard that you are a lot of fun in the bar, you know?
- [33:58]
B
I do know. I do know.
- [33:59]
A
So I. That might be a part of it.
- [34:01]
B
Yeah. But, yeah, now I'm. Now I'm thinking. I'm thinking. I'm like, what's going on? I wonder if it's something also within publishing, if there's like, I don't know. I don't know. And also maybe, like, maybe there's some outside racism around, like, or. Or a fear of writing towards, like, crime stories as black people because of that sort of prejudice and racism. But I feel like. I mean, it's. It's weird to me that essay Cosby exists and there aren't like nine copycats. Do you know what I mean? He's successful. It's not like he's out here floundering. You would think that his success would have made like seven or eight people exactly jump in and be like, I want to do that. I could do that. And maybe, maybe, like, there hasn't been enough. But even Walter Mosley, like, he's been around for a long time.
- [34:52]
A
A long time.
- [34:53]
B
The fact that, like, it's like, you and Sean are the only two, like, is. But, like, 1990, like, there's time. We're like three generations thinking about this. This is going to become one of my obsessions. I'm probably going to take it to Threads later today. I can't wait. Oh, I do. This is what I want to talk about, about the 1980s. So one of the pieces of this book, we talked a lot about race, but there's also this sort of, you know, not sort of. There is this homophobia in the town. There is a queer character who. It's 19. It's 1980s. So AIDS is happening. The crisis is happening. I'm wondering what about that piece of the story was interesting and exciting to you and why you sor. Of wanted to explore this angle as well.
- [35:39]
A
Yeah, well, I chose the 80s primarily because of the serial killer when he was doing his. His thing. And I said, okay, I'll set it around that time. It'll just make it a little more real for me. But in terms of the homophobia piece, I had said that after decent people, I was not doing homophobia anymore. I was like. I said what? I said. I did it one time. But as I started Writing Fate more, I was like, I can't just pretend that everyone is okay with a gay neighbor.
- [36:19]
B
Right?
- [36:19]
A
I just can't do it. And. But I had sort of put the AIDS epidemic out of my mind. I didn't want to deal with that. And my agent said, you got to mention it a couple times at least, you know? And I said, damn.
- [36:37]
B
Yeah.
- [36:37]
A
But I just didn't want to deal with it.
- [36:39]
B
I mean, I actually thought it was sort of great because you do mention it, but it's not, like, a huge plot point, but it is a piece of the story, because Fate's partner. I don't. This is not a spoiler. Fate's partner lives in the city and kind of, like, comes up to visit. And so I loved that idea of, like, this. This, like, scary thing that's happening in the city, and then this gay person, who we already don't like because he's gay, is bringing his gay boyfriend from the city with the disease to our town. You know what I was like, right? Of course. Because that is the dynamic of. Of, like, the homophobia of the anti. Like, HIV and, like, all the scare and all. And I just thought that was, like, really smart.
- [37:21]
A
Smart.
- [37:22]
B
I really like that. How did you name your characters?
- [37:26]
A
Let's see. This time it was less strategic. Okay. Sylvia is a name that I just like because I. Those. I grew up with a girl named Sylvia. Now, Fate's name. Double entendre. But I had a family member named Lafayette. His nickname was Fate. So I named him after this. I named the character after Fate, but also I had ideas about Fate, which I will not talk about. Okay, so.
- [38:01]
B
Because it's spoilers.
- [38:02]
A
Yep.
- [38:03]
B
Okay.
- [38:03]
A
So it made the name more powerful. But everybody else, those names were. I just kind of grabbed them.
- [38:12]
B
Did you always know the whites were going to be the Whites? Like, did you have the title in mind or did the title.
- [38:19]
A
There was one title before it, and it caught. It was, oh, how Fervent.
- [38:24]
B
Okay.
- [38:25]
A
And then as I got to writing James and Ella, and at some point, I was like, I'm just gonna name them White. It's easy. And people would think it's funny that it's a white couple named White. And then I changed the title. The title to the the Fervent Whites.
- [38:43]
B
Okay.
- [38:44]
A
Yeah.
- [38:44]
B
Okay. And what about the COVID Were you involved in it at all?
- [38:47]
A
A little bit. They showed us that cover with various color schemes. So I always liked the COVID The color. We went back and forth just a little teeny bit.
- [39:01]
B
What was. What. What was that?
- [39:03]
A
What Was the other one was like some blue. Yeah.
- [39:06]
B
I love this cover. This is one of my favorite covers this year. This is one of my favorite covers of the year, for sure. I mean, I'll be honest with you. I saw this, maybe I saw it on PJ's Instagram and I was like, what is that? I was like, I need to read that. I didn't know. I mean, I recognized your name, but I was like, what's happening here? That is like doing it. It's doing it big time for me.
- [39:29]
A
Yeah, yeah, we love the covers, especially after the red came in.
- [39:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, it just, I don't. It's like funny and also like kind of scary. And you're like, what's going on here? And I feel like the, the actual title just looks so good and it's like the title is so provocative. I don't. The, the team effort for this package is one of my favorite packages, I think, of the year so far. I just, I think like, I think a good. I think a bad cover is like, unfortunate, but I think a good cover is. Can be huge. Like this pops on the. At the bookstore.
- [40:10]
A
For sure it does. I can't take a much credit for it.
- [40:13]
B
Well, but the title, you have the title in the town and you name the characters and I feel like, I don't know, plus, like, your name you can't really take credit for. But the three lines, like the symmetry of your name and it's like, it just work. It just really works for me. I'm just like really into it. I guess I have to give your parents or whoever named you credit for that. But. And how do you like to write? How often? How many hours a day do you listen to music? Do you have snacks and beverages? Are you in your home? Are you outside set the scene?
- [40:45]
A
Yeah, I mostly like to write outside of the home in a coffee shop or library. And if it's a busy, busy coffee shop, I can't do it because I'm a people watcher and I'll type five words and then eavesdrop. In terms of times a day, mostly afternoon and evening. But lately I've been writing a little bit in the morning because I'm finding that I don't do, especially on during months where there's no teaching. I waste a large chunk of my mornings and I like, I should be writing.
- [41:26]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:27]
A
And I do. I go to the gym and stuff like that, but I'm not at the gym from 9 to 4.
- [41:33]
B
Right.
- [41:33]
A
I could write.
- [41:36]
B
And what about snacks and Beverages. What are you ordering when you go to the coffee shop?
- [41:40]
A
Usually just a regular drip. And I'll get a muffin or something.
- [41:44]
B
What kind of muffin?
- [41:46]
A
If they have that. Those green pistachio nut muffins. I'll get one of those.
- [41:53]
B
You like?
- [41:53]
A
Yeah.
- [41:54]
B
Okay. And what sort of stuff do you like? Helps you to sort of tap in to your creativity and like, to your writing process, especially if you're writing later in the day. How do you sort of like reset from whatever's happened before to focusing on the work?
- [42:13]
A
Sometimes it's playing a song or two from that time period. That wasn't the case where Fervent so much with Fervent. It was opening the manuscript and reading one or two pages back from where I left off. It's. It's funny how sometimes different things get me in the zone.
- [42:35]
B
Yeah. Did you always know you wanted to be a writer?
- [42:39]
A
No, not at all.
- [42:41]
B
What did you think you wanted to be?
- [42:43]
A
I thought I wanted to be a teacher and, like. But not college students, Right. I. I thought I would be like a 5th grade, 6th grade teacher or something. And I have an entrepreneurial side. So I also at one point thought I was gonna own a big chain of laundromats. Oh, no.
- [43:03]
B
Okay.
- [43:04]
A
Yeah. Because I worked at a dry cleaner Laundromat combo when I. In my early 20s, and I kind of love the industry.
- [43:12]
B
You gotta write one of those books. I feel like that's like a good place for some. Some nefarious stuff to go down.
- [43:18]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [43:20]
B
All the people coming and doing laundry.
- [43:23]
A
Right.
- [43:23]
B
Like, what are you guys washing?
- [43:25]
A
Exactly.
- [43:26]
B
You know?
- [43:26]
A
Yeah. You cleaned up a murder scene or
- [43:30]
B
like an affair, you know.
- [43:31]
A
Right.
- [43:32]
B
Someone else's draws. Like, I don't know. I feel like I would read a laundromat. I would read a novel about like a Laundromat kingpin.
- [43:42]
A
Yes.
- [43:43]
B
Who's like laundroma, laundering money, but also like the town, the affairs, you know, Like.
- [43:50]
A
Right.
- [43:51]
B
I'm into it. Maybe he's got like a kid, like a super smart kid or something who's like in the bit, like getting everybody's business. Like a Harriet the Spy situation.
- [44:01]
A
And he's queer for sure.
- [44:03]
B
There's. So I. This is. This is good. This is good.
- [44:07]
A
I'm gonna write that one together.
- [44:08]
B
I would read this, but also I feel like we could sell the rights to this.
- [44:13]
A
Yeah.
- [44:13]
B
Because that would be a great vehicle for a TV show. You know, you just episode like Hulu, right? Yes. I feel like you get what's his Face. This is us guy. Sterling K. Brown.
- [44:28]
A
Yes.
- [44:29]
B
Oh, my God. He would. Oh, he's. He's, like, such a nice guy. He owns the Laundromat, but really, he's doing something really bad, right?
- [44:37]
A
Like, he's a pimp. He's selling coke.
- [44:40]
B
Oh, my God. Yes. I was watching drugs, but women also. Or men.
- [44:46]
A
Yes, he.
- [44:47]
B
And you know what? I bet he, as an actor, is ready to do his villain turn character. He hasn't done it yet.
- [44:54]
A
No.
- [44:54]
B
He doesn't have a training day, you know, like, he's. He needs it.
- [44:58]
A
Yes.
- [44:59]
B
Okay. What's a word you could never spell correctly on the first try?
- [45:05]
A
Roommate.
- [45:06]
B
Oh, because of the M's.
- [45:08]
A
The M's. I lost the spelling bee. It was either fifth or sixth grade. Over roommate.
- [45:15]
B
Wow.
- [45:16]
A
I'm still haunted.
- [45:17]
B
Do you know the correct answer or still you don't know?
- [45:20]
A
Now I got it.
- [45:21]
B
I don't know. It's two M's.
- [45:23]
A
It's two M's.
- [45:24]
B
Two M. Yeah. Wow, that's a hard one. It doesn't seem like it would be hard. I know, but the two M's. That. You're right. I'm a really bad speller. So almost every word gets me. I'm always like, gosh, I don't know. I skipped over this. So how did. When did you figure out you wanted to be a writer? What was it that changed from Laundromats to novels?
- [45:48]
A
So I was a business major at Brooklyn College, and my father died suddenly. And I knew my father very well. He was. He. He and my mother raised me together. And. But he had a very fascinating life that I knew about mostly from other people's lips. And when he died, I was like. I didn't ever get a chance to ask him that directly. And. And so I went into a creative writing class thinking I would write a biography of my father. Some grand idea.
- [46:25]
B
Yeah.
- [46:26]
A
And I got in there and lost interest in that particular project and started fictionalizing other family lore, for lack of a better word. And it just kind of went from there. And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm addicted. I could do this all the time. And. But I didn't think, like, mfa, become a novelist. I thought maybe short stories and send them out to lit magazines. I didn't intend to go quite this far.
- [46:59]
B
Yeah, you're like, I found a little hobby, and I turned it into my job.
- [47:03]
A
I turned it into my job.
- [47:05]
B
Same here. What a mistake.
- [47:06]
A
You know, I still want a few Laundromats, though.
- [47:08]
B
Yeah. I. This is research now you know it's a write off.
- [47:12]
A
Yes.
- [47:16]
B
Do you know what comes next from you besides the Laundromats?
- [47:20]
A
I am working on a romance.
- [47:22]
B
Okay.
- [47:23]
A
Very, very early stages. I don't even know if I'll stick with it, but I tend to finish what I start.
- [47:30]
B
Okay.
- [47:31]
A
So probably it'll be a romance, but it may not come out in my name. I've been very clear about that, that if it's very different from my work, I will keep it separate.
- [47:44]
B
Okay. But let me ask you this, if you. So because we're in an interesting era of like these pen names where there's lots of people who have them and we know them and we know their pen names, would you try to release it and like not do press around it and like keep it totally separate, or would you just put it in a different name, like, because it's like good for branding.
- [48:07]
A
What I think I would might do is put it out, let it be out for three years and let's just say hypothetically, it becomes a bestseller and everybody's like, who is this Jane Winslow? I would give her a different last name, but then I would be like, okay, it's me.
- [48:28]
B
Oh, oh, so you would go with a lady's name?
- [48:31]
A
Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't. All my books have female protagonists or the female protagonist is the lead, I would say. So I think I would go with a. With a woman's name.
- [48:51]
B
Why do you think all your books have women main characters?
- [48:54]
A
Because I'm a big old girl.
- [48:58]
B
Like. But would you ever want to write a man as your lead?
- [49:04]
A
Well, he would have to be. I would write a queer male lead.
- [49:08]
B
Okay.
- [49:08]
A
And I am not quite yet ready to write a fully queer novel.
- [49:14]
B
Okay.
- [49:15]
A
Yeah.
- [49:16]
B
Okay.
- [49:16]
A
What does it mean to be a
- [49:17]
B
fully queer novel to you? Like, what makes it fully as opposed to like partially?
- [49:22]
A
For me, it's. The protagonists are all queer and a lot of the novel has to do with their sexuality or how the world receives them.
- [49:38]
B
I see.
- [49:39]
A
Yeah. And I know that novel. I'm going to write it, but right now I'm more interested in people that are not me so closely.
- [49:49]
B
I see. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. I mean, most men don't like to write or not. Maybe they don't like to. Most men don't write women and they certainly don't write women well. So it is, it is of noteworthy that you have chosen to write women and like women like your books because a lot of men who write women, women are like, this is trash.
- [50:09]
A
I know.
- [50:09]
B
They're like, I hate it here. What's wrong?
- [50:12]
A
Right.
- [50:13]
B
Do you have a sense of. Of your readership? Is it mostly women?
- [50:17]
A
Oh, most definitely. Yeah. The. The DMS I get, the people who attend my events is 90 women.
- [50:27]
B
Interesting, interesting. This is sort of related, I guess. The book has been out in the world long enough that you might have an answer for this. But who's like, the coolest person who's expressed interest in this book, in your opinion?
- [50:40]
A
Well, you.
- [50:46]
B
That wasn't a setup, but thank you.
- [50:49]
A
And I would say the second coolest person. Her name on Instagram is Gina J I N A dot something. She's a big influencer. Well, not an influencer. She talks about things going in the world.
- [51:07]
B
Okay.
- [51:07]
A
And she. She did a post one day of a reel. She had picked up a copy of the book from Baldwin and Sons and Company.
- [51:18]
B
Yeah, Baldwin and Company in New Orleans.
- [51:20]
A
Right. And she did a video and I was blown out of my mind.
- [51:24]
B
Oh, I love that. Okay, we'll link to that and everything else in the show notes. Okay. For people who love this book, the Fervent Whites, what are some other books you might recommend to them that are in conversation?
- [51:35]
A
Let's see. I would say just the Nice Couple. Just. Just the Nicest Couple.
- [51:43]
B
Okay.
- [51:44]
A
By Mary Cubica, K U B I, C A. I would recommend Drowning with Others, and by Kier. I'm forgetting the whole name.
- [52:00]
B
It's okay, we'll link. We'll link everything in the show notes. So as long as you give me a good title, I'll be able to find it.
- [52:05]
A
Gotcha. And essay. Cosby's Ashes. King of Ashes.
- [52:12]
B
Yeah, he came on the show last year for that one. I really liked it. Two more questions. One is, what do you hope folks will keep in mind as they read this book?
- [52:22]
A
I think. I hope people will remember that mothers can be really good mothers to a child they didn't birth. That's one thing. Another one would be love that neighbor as best you can.
- [52:42]
B
Yeah. Even if they're racist. Don't love those ones.
- [52:47]
A
Okay.
- [52:49]
B
We don't. We're on the fence about the white. Okay.
- [52:51]
A
Yeah, yeah. But otherwise, in general, like, try to leave people alone if they're not bothering you and you're not bothering them, and just try to coexist to a point.
- [53:05]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [53:12]
A
Oh, I would say, I would love for Walter Mosley to read this book.
- [53:17]
B
Did you send it to him?
- [53:19]
A
No, you should. I should. I'm scared.
- [53:23]
B
Of what? That he's not gonna like it.
- [53:25]
A
Who cares? He might say, how dare you send me a book? Do you know who I am?
- [53:30]
B
As many books as he's publishing, he can't get mad at someone else for publishing one book, Right? These are like, seven books coming out this month. Doesn't he have two or three books this year? I think. I think at least two. At least two this year.
- [53:43]
A
Yeah, He's.
- [53:44]
B
Listen, he needs to take a break and read your book. Well, I don't know him, but he's in la, so maybe I'll go find him, like, knock on his door and be like, I've got a book for you. Well, desean, this was amazing. Thank you so much. People at home, you can get the fervent whites wherever you get your books. I did listen to a little bit of the audio. It's quite good. Someone in the Stacks pack said that they put the audiobook on for a long drive. They had them and their husband.
- [54:10]
A
Yeah.
- [54:10]
B
And that the husband, who's not a big reader, ended up loving it and was like, put the book back on. Put the book back on. So. So it's good on audio, too. I. I mostly read it off the page, but it's. It's a good one either way.
- [54:21]
A
Cool. Thank you so much, Tracy, for having me. This has been fun, and this is one of my dreams.
- [54:26]
B
Oh, yay.
- [54:28]
A
Yeah.
- [54:30]
B
That's very nice of you to say. Thank you so much. And everybody else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y', all, thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to desean Charles Winslow for joining the show. I'd also like to say a thank you to Georgia Brainard for helping make this episode possible. Our book club pick for August is Fish Tales by Nettie Jones, and we'll be discussing the book with Sequoia homes on Wednesday, August 26th. If you love the Stacks, if you want inside access access to it, head to patreon.com thestacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram, Threads and YouTube, and you can check out our website at the stackspodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas, with production assistance from Sahara Clement, additional support provided by Sheree Marquez, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.