Bull James - SAS CLASSIC

Summary

The Steve Austin Show: Bull James (SAS CLASSIC) – Detailed Summary
Date: November 20, 2025 | Host: Steve Austin | Guest: Bull James (formerly Bull Dempsey)

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Episode Overview

In this classic episode, Steve Austin sits down with Bull James—a.k.a. Bull Dempsey from NXT—to reflect on Bull’s wrestling journey, learning from legends like Matt Bourne and Dusty Rhodes, life inside the WWE/NXT system, and life on the independent circuit. The conversation is candid, fun, and peppered with unique perspectives on the business, memorable stories, and wrestling wisdom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bull James’ Recent Indie Work

• House Shows & Matches
  • Bull talks about facing Hanson (now known as War King Hanson) at the Suffolk Theater.
  • Enjoys working with talented independent wrestlers—describes it as a "lot of fun" and emphasizes the chemistry between big men who can move.
  • "Getting to wrestle a guy like Hanson, who's killing it in Ring of Honor right now... this is actually our first time getting in there together ... a lot of back and forth and close fists..." (Bull James, 14:36–15:54)

2. Transition from NXT to Indies

• Freedom in Match Structure
  • Now sets out to create memorable "moments," referencing Terry Taylor’s advice.
  • "Wrestling fans aren’t going to remember full matches. They’re gonna remember moments."(Bull James, 17:02)
  • Notes the difference in working styles and creative constraints between NXT and the Indies.

3. Early Beginnings in Wrestling

• Entry into the Business
  • Debuted at 17 after eight months of training, credits journeyman wrestlers like Judas Young, Kodiak Baer, Danny Inferno, and guidance from Tommy Dreamer, Mikey Whipwreck, and Matt Bourne.
  • _"Everybody else was going, ‘can’t wait to watch on Monday,’ and I'm like, ‘I can't wait to be on Mondays.’" (Bull James, 18:43)

4. Learning from Matt Bourne (Doink the Clown)

• Mentorship and the Depth of 'Doink'

  • Matt Bourne’s portrayal of Doink was intensely intimidating, drawing on influences from Stephen King’s "It," various Joker interpretations, and old Portland mainstay Moondog Maine.
  • "Nobody was able to pull off the Doink the Clown character like Matt Bourne did..." (Steve Austin, 25:24)
  • Shares personal stories about road trips and late-night wrestling talk with Matt Bourne, absorbing his insights on reinventing yourself and watching workers like Terry Funk, Bruiser Brody, and Adrian Adonis.

• Notable Quote:

  • "The last thing he said to me... he goes, ‘I'm gonna tell you something that I've only told to Steve Austin and the Undertaker—you’re gonna make a million dollars in this business.’" (Bull James, 34:18)

5. Training Under Taz

• Finishing School Experience
  • Spent over a year refining his intensity and “mean streak” under Taz, which set him apart as a credible talent for WWE and was noticed by Austin himself.
  • "It was just intensity and slipping that gear... finding that mean streak and that intensity.” (Bull James, 24:04)

6. Getting Into NXT & Learning from Dusty Rhodes

• NXT Recruitment

  • Booked through Bill DeMott after networking, with a strong tryout aided by Matt Bourne’s and Taz’s recommendations.
  • “The hardest three days of my life... but I remember hitting it off with Dusty afterwards, after I cut my promo.” (Bull James, 38:51)

• Dusty Rhodes’ Mentorship

  • Dusty’s key advice: focus on real character and promo skills; encouragement helped Bull’s confidence.
  • Shares the “guys like us” praise from Dusty, which bolstered his belief and drive.
  • _"He would always refer to a guy... ‘guys like us’ when he would talk to me. That was always huge to me." (Bull James, 44:48)

7. Life at the WWE Performance Center

• Daily Life & Expectations
  • Details grueling schedules: early mornings, gym, ring training, promo classes, character work, and live events.
  • Discusses the large, ever-changing roster: sometimes up to 80 trainees, with high dropout rates as many struggle with bumps or don’t fit the lifestyle.
  • "If you want to get better, why aren’t you there?" (Bull James, 49:53)

8. Changes, Setbacks, and Post-NXT Evolution

• Creative Shifts & Release

  • Explains the behind-the-scenes decisions: shift from “Bull Dempsey” squash matches to the “bullfit” comedy gimmick, issues with being compared to Kevin Owens despite different styles.
  • Reflects on the depression and adjustments after leaving WWE, stressing never to lose the authenticity of his wrestling persona.
  • _"As long as there's people coming up to me... saying, you know, ‘hey, it's nice to see somebody different who can keep up with them’... I'm not going to go and change who I am." (Bull James, 58:49)

• On Body Types in Wrestling

  • Both he and Austin express frustration with the era of “cookie-cutter” body guys, praising the diversity in wrestling looks during the 1980s.
  • "I don’t want to see a bunch of bodybuilders in wrestling... the best thing about pro wrestling is the difference in physique." (Steve Austin, 58:49)

9. Returning to Serious Wrestling

• Defining His Future
  • Post-WWE, Bull reinvents himself: new gear, new approach, returning to serious, grounded wrestling.
  • "Let me get back to the serious stuff when I was really rolling... being that big guy with a motor who makes everything look believable." (Bull James, 62:36)
  • Both agree the seriousness in wrestling (with room for occasional 'ha ha') is more compelling and enduring.

10. Upcoming Appearances & Gratitude

• Bull shares his upcoming wrestling dates for House of Hardcore (Pittsburgh/Cleveland), ROH (Florida), and a UK tour.
• Expresses appreciation to Steve for the exposure and support.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On what fans remember:
  "As long as I try to create a moment or two in each one of my matches where people can remember it... then I'm doing my job."
  – Bull James (17:02)

• Matt Bourne’s parting words:
  "I'm gonna tell you something that I've only told to Steve Austin and the Undertaker. You're gonna make a million dollars in this business."
  – Matt Bourne to Bull James (34:18)

• On blending seriousness and comedy:
  "I love some of the comedy acts, but to me... I like the serious stuff. I love heat. I love when a babyface is over...that's when the magic happens."
  – Steve Austin (64:00)

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Important Timestamps

• [13:09] – Podcast segment begins with Bull James introduction.
• [14:36–16:12] – Discussion of Bull’s recent indie matches and wrestling style.
• [17:02] – Terry Taylor’s advice about creating moments, not just matches.
• [21:02–26:06] – Bull discusses training and influence from Matt Bourne and Taz.
• [32:12] – Steve and Bull on working relationships and Bourne’s influence.
• [34:18] – Matt Bourne’s last words to Bull: “You’re gonna make a million dollars.”
• [38:51] – Bull’s account of his NXT tryout; meeting Dusty Rhodes.
• [44:48] – Dusty’s encouragement: “Guys like us.”
• [49:53] – Inside look at Performance Center routine.
• [53:21] – Adjusting to wrestling’s physicality as a newcomer.
• [55:17] – On creative transitions and being compared to Kevin Owens.
• [58:49] – Austin on body types in wrestling, Bull on staying authentic.
• [62:36] – Bull outlines reinventing himself post-WWE.
• [68:02] – Bull shares upcoming show dates, thanks Steve Austin.

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Tone & Final Thoughts

The conversation is relaxed and authentic, with both Austin and Bull sharing their passion for wrestling and the realities behind the scenes—offering valuable lessons for aspiring wrestlers, keen insight for seasoned fans, and some heartfelt tributes to late industry icons. The episode stands as a testament to perseverance, reinvention, and staying true to oneself in the ever-evolving world of professional wrestling.

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"You just use what you got to work the best for you... there's been many guys that don't look like some bodybuilder just came off the beach to make it in our business."
– Steve Austin (60:15)

Transcript

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[Steve Austin]

Hollywood, California, by way of the Broken Skull Ranch. This is the Steve Austin Show. Give me a Hell yeah.

[Bull James]

Hell yeah.

[Steve Austin]

Now here's Steve Austin. All right, everybody. Welcome to Steve Austin Show. I'm coming to you from the mean streets of Los Angeles, California, sitting here at my desk at 316 Gimmick street watching the second hand on this pearl beer neon clock spin around like a rotisserie chicken. Over to my right, Hershey, the 1A dog, is asleep. Over in the back room, Moolah is over waiting for someone to play with her. My wife is sitting right in front of me. She's over paying bills. That's right. They send those gimmicks they call bills in the mail to my place, too. And if you don't pay them, they'll turn off your electricity, your water, and take your cars back. So she's paying all our bills. She's not gonna join me on today's podcast. And today's podcast is a good one. Here's how today's podcast happened, man. A couple weeks ago, I got a direct message from Bull. Bull Dempsey, as he was known down there in nxt. Nxt Future endeavored him, and he's no longer Bull Dempsey on the independent scene and with Ring of Honor, he's Bull James and he shot me his phone number and I called him out of the blue and we just sat there and talked about the business a couple of times. 30 minute, 45 minute conversation, just shooting the breeze. I really enjoyed talking to the guy and I said, you know what, bring him on the damn podcast, have a conversation with him, see what he's up to since he's departed NXT and he's out there on the indie scene. So he's a great guy. I really enjoyed talking to him and I think you'll enjoy this conversation. He's got some good dusty stories and he's got some good stories of his own along with some good Matt Bourne stories who used to play Doink the Clown. And it was interesting to talk about Matt Bourne because he was so influential on my career back in 89 and 90 when I started off in Dallas. And then Matt Bourne would end up in Jersey and able to help out a young Bull James on the independent scene there as Matt was on the same circuit. So, anyway, a great podcast coming your way with Bull James. But before I get to Bull James, I'm going to finish the rest of my open. Before I finish the rest of my open, I want to give you guys on the front end of this podcast where Bull James is going to be wrestling at. Next he's going to be with Tommy Dreamer. House of Hardcore, October 14th in Cleveland, Ohio. House of Hardcore October 15th in Pittsburgh. And then for Ring of Honor down there in Fort Lauderdale, Florida on October 21st. Down there in Lakeland, Florida on October 22nd. Then with Superstar Promotions, they're going over to the UK October 26th through the 29th, Liverpool, London, Grimsby and Kings Lynn. So check out Bull James when he's coming to an area near you to tell them Austin sent you. Anyway, Bull James, coming up in my podcast conversation, I think you're going to enjoy this talk. Hey man, I got a real interesting piece of mail in a mailbox the other day and I opened it up with my broken skull cold steel pocket knife and it said, you are a finalist in our 2017 Toyota Prius Hybrid giveaway. God dang. I jumped so high in air, almost hit my head on the ceiling. And it said, first pull the tab on the attached VIN gauge code case and your winning six digit VIN number. VIN number will light up. Then scratch off the circle below. If the two numbers match, you're one of our grand prize winners. Now, you guys going to hear me actually scratch off this number on the Thursday podcast because Rob Van Dam is my Thursday guest. He came over this past Saturday right during college football hours and, and we sat there and talked for two hours. RVD is coming your way this Thursday and next Thursday. So anyway, RVD is here next Thursday. And I scratched off the numbers with my pocket knife, this circle, and they matched up on this little light up code case thing with the VIN number on it. I won. The numbers match up. You ain't gotta wait till Thursday to hear the results of what I scratched off. You'll have to wait for the badass podcast with RVD though. I got four things that I could have won. Either one, a 2017 Toyota Prius Hybrid or $30,000 cash. Man, I might flip a coin on that one. Do I want a Toyota Prius or do I want 30G's cash? Or the number two prize, Samsung 51 inch 3D Plasma TV or a new Apple iPad Air. I don't need a new Apple iPad Air. I ain't gonna use that thing. Or number four seven night Royal Caribbean cruise with airfare for two. I don't want to win a damn cruise because I can't stand cruises. I ain't gonna get out on a big ass boat in the water with a bunch of strangers and then the boat craps out and you're stranded and the toilets don't flush and the food's all dirty. I ain't going on no cruise. So I want to win the Toyota Prius hybrid. I'm gonna make it into a four wheel drive and put some mud grip tires on it. And I'm gonna take it down to Chip Foose. We're gonna take the top off and then we're gonna lift it up and. And that's going to be me and Teddy Fowler's hunting vehicle for 2016, 2017. Or if we get the 51 inch. Well, Kristen, I got to go down there. Here's the thing. I scratched the numbers off this thing. I pulled the tab on the light it up VIN number thing and they matched up. So I called the 1-800 or the 888 number, the toll free number, and the lady told me that I had one. I said, okay, well where'd I go pick up my Toyota prius or the 30 GS and. And she said, well, first you gotta come to our dealership and listen to an hour PowerPoint presentation. On what?

[Bull James]

Not the dealership.

[Steve Austin]

It's about a timeshare. Oh yeah, I gotta go listen to a timeshare presentation. A PowerPoint presentation. They got a bunch of technology involved in here about timeshares. I said, I don't have any interest in a timeshare. I just want my prius or the 30 GS. And then she said, well, if you want to get it, you got to come to the PowerPoint presentation. I told her, quite honestly, I said, I'm a global icon and a national treasure. I ain't got time to come down and listen to a PowerPoint presentation about timeshares. So my illustrious wife Kristen is going to go down and listen to the PowerPoint presentation. And hopefully, if you take an Uber, Kristen, you can drive home in our new 2017 Toyota Prius Hybrid or pay the Uber with part of the $30,000 we will win. Or come back with the 51 inch Plasma TV strapped on the top of that damn thing or come back with a little iPad air. If they want to give us a cruise, we're gonna have to sell a cruise because I ain't going on cruises because you know how I feel about cruise ships. We'll give it to somebody if you want to go to. You know what, I'll have a giveaway here on the podcast because me and my wife don't do cruises. That's what we'll do. We'll give it away on the podcast. So hopefully. And you know what? If I win this iPad air, I'm gonna give that thing away on air too, because I don't need no iPad air. I got enough technology. What? Kristen, this ain't about you. This is not the people that are listening to the award winning podcast that has never won a damn award. Okay? So I think, Kristen, you have a week to go down there and listen to the presentation. Anyway, enough of that BS. God dang it. I watched UFC 204 this past Saturday. What an event it was. That damn main event. Michael Bisping, the champ, Dan Hendo Henderson in the main event. Hendo, most likely 100%. That's gonna be his last fight. Holy smokes. What a war. What a war. What a fight. Michael Bisping won, unanimous decision. But it didn't look like he won. God dang it. Dan Henderson hit him with some shots, dropped him, what, two, three times. And Bisping, you know, he returned fire enough and stayed busy enough. And Henderson didn't really have a mark on him after the fight, but the fight was what it was, and it was a hell of a fight. Shout out to both guys. The story going into this fight for both guys, you know, for Michael Bisping coming from the uk and badass in his own right to have such a damn successful career. That knockout win against Luke Rockhold a couple of months ago and pow, pow. And all of a sudden you got a new champion. And then all of a sudden, you know, after Henderson, Dan Henderson knocked him out over seven years ago with that big shot and that follow up shot. And now here these two are fighting seven years later, the title's on the line. Kendo's already knocked out Bisping in the past. Bisping with this great career. He's got a few eye problems with. What a warrior, Henderson. From all of his wrestling background for all the years that he's been fighting, some 20 years to go into this main event, I was going to be happy to see either guy win because I'm a fan of both guys. I got to say, my heartstrings are pulling for Hendo just because I knew he was going to retire with that belt. But I was happy seeing Michael winning as well because of the way he's conducted himself. And I remember when Michael first came over here and started talking all that trash, you know, he's pretty brash. And I said, man, this guy's pretty cocky. I don't know if I like him. And then I started hearing him do commentary. I'm like, man, I really changed my tune on this guy. I really like this guy. He knows what he's doing. He can talk and he can back it up. And he's really, really smart. And Hendo, I met him at the Shot Show a couple years back. Real quiet guy, just minds his own business. Badass. Both guys are going to be hall of Famers in the ufc. But anyway, yeah, Hendo was at the shot show a couple years ago. He's a big hunter, likes to bow hunt. But anyway, shout out to both guys. God dang, Dan, I wish you'd have won that fight. And Michael, I'm glad you won it. I can't have it both ways. But I'm just going to say, just from an event standpoint, I was a happy camper. Appreciate you guys putting on such a great Pay per view before I wrap up this open. I also watched the WWE Pay per View this past Sunday, the day after Saturday, while the presidential debate was going on. Round two. All I can say is Trump still won't answer a question directly and Hillary can still spin a yarn about anything. And they spent so much time slinging mud at each other and not really going into any kind of depth, detail or anything of substance. It just really makes you wonder what the next four years is going to be like. But anyway, enough about the next four years. We're here, we're now. We got Bull James coming up.

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[Steve Austin]

The Steve Austin Show. The Steve Austin Show. All right, we're rolling sound. I'm talking to Bull Dempsey. Well, he was Bull Dempsey. He is now Bull James out on independent circuit. Bull, how are you today?

[Bull James]

I'm doing great, Steve. Thanks for having me on, man.

[Steve Austin]

It's good talking to you again. You and I talked about a week or two ago and I said, man, we had such a good conversation, I think it'd be good to have this guy on a podcast. So hell, I called Bull literally this morning. At first I sent him a direct message because I'd lost his phone number and he's got a real easy phone number to remember and I couldn't remember it. So anyway, luckily I rarely call people, so I would scroll through my phone and I found your phone number. I was one digit off. But Bull, when you're one digit off on a phone number, you ain't going to get the right person. So anyway, here we speak. Hey, let's go back. Let's start with the here and now. I was just on your Twitter account. For those of you who don't know who Bull Dempsey is or don't know who Bull James is, he's a professional wrestler, used to be with WWE in the NXT system. Before that many years on the independent scene, making a debut in 2005. We're going to cover all that, but let's go back to the here and now because I was on your Twitter account, which is real. Bull James Ealbulljames, you just got finished working with a young man named War King Hansen over there at the Suffolk Theater. How did that go? Bull, how was the house? Did you guys pack them in and how was the match?

[Bull James]

Yeah, it was a Lot of fun and getting the wrestle guy like Hanson, who's, you know, killing it in Ring of Honor right now. And he's been around the independents for a long time as well, so this is actually our first time getting in there together, which I've known him for a number of years, so it was actually a lot of fun and getting to do all that. And then the next night, Wrestling south and Cyr, WWF fame.

[Steve Austin]

Man. How long has this War King Hansen been around? Because I don't get a whole lot of Ring of Honor. I rarely watch tv. I DVR Monday Night Raw, so I don't get a whole lot of that either. I missed the Pay per View last night. So how long has War King been around?

[Bull James]

I want to say 11 or 12 years now.

[Steve Austin]

Okay, so he's got it. Is he pretty good?

[Bull James]

Yeah, yeah, very good.

[Steve Austin]

I'm not thinking that this was a scientific endeavor. I'm thinking a lot of brawling, a lot of closed fish.

[Bull James]

Yeah, there was a few of them. And, you know, he's. He's another bigger guy that can move, so, you know, he got a bunch of stuff that he can do and that I can do and kind of mesh really well together. You know, he's out over there missing big moonsaults, and, you know, I'm trying to set him up to go for a whoopee cushion and whole lot of back and forth and. And close fists, like you said, a couple kicks and stomps. You know how that usually works out.

[Steve Austin]

Hey, I was watching some of your matches before we talked, and I'd watched several of your matches before we had our phone conversation a couple weeks ago. Man, for a big guy, you're, give or take, 6, 2, 300 pounds in that range. You move great for a big man. And so Hanson, of the same athletic ability.

[Bull James]

Yeah, absolutely. He's, you know, he can move real well and can break out some things. I think people may not realize that a guy his size can do or should be able to do.

[Steve Austin]

Hey, man, let's talk right now about how you're working on the independent scene versus what you were doing on the NXT scene, because I was going back to some of your matches. I guess you got the call up there, give or take, around 2013. I started watching some of your matches from 2014. Seemed like they were giving you a lot of squash matches. They were kind of lighting you on fire back in the day. And then it started turning to some 50, 50 stuff, and then kind of getting towards your departure, starting to do some Favors. And I guess your last match there is with Samoa Joe. What is. I guess my question, Bull, is what is the difference between the NXT style and independent style you're working now with a guy like Hanson?

[Bull James]

I think the cool thing is, you know, when you're in NXT and you're doing those live events, a lot of times you're working on one specific thing and it's, you know, hey, this needs to look a little bit better, or, we need to clean this up. But now it's more of, you know, I've been through that training to that system. You know, I'm the one kind of passing things on other guys now, but at the same time, still trying to keep my name out there and do my thing. I think it's just having that freedom to kind of go wherever the crowd wants to kind of take it or wherever I want to take it. And there was something Terry Taylor said to me a couple years back that, you know, wrestling fans are going to remember full matches. They're going to remember moments. So I think that as long as I try to create a moment or two in each one of my matches where people can remember it and look back on it when they get home or go to work the next day, and, hey, I went to this wrestling show and this guy did this, or I saw Bull last week and he did this. And it's something that they can take home with them. I think as long as I try to do, you know, a couple. Couple of things like that every night, then I'm doing my job.

[Steve Austin]

Let's go back to your debut, man. By doing my calculations, man, you were born in 88. You made your debut in 2005. That would have put you at 17 years of age at your debut. Is my calculation correct?

[Bull James]

You are correct, yes, sir.

[Steve Austin]

Dang it. And it's funny because I'm on your Twitter account and you have a picture of teenage star Robbie Brookside, and I guess the caption there was like, get a real job like your father. So what was the story with posting this picture and you starting at 17? Because I've seen a common thread here. When did you actually want to be a professional wrestler?

[Bull James]

You know, I think it was just when I was growing up, you know, there was, you know, I first got into it early 90s with my grandfather, and Hulk Hogan was still running wild and doing his thing. And then, you know, there was kind of that gap in between, and I kind of fell out of wrestling a little bit and then come around like fourth or Fifth grade, I started getting back into it and then, you know, that was when you started getting lit on fire and rock and, you know, Shawn Michaels and all these guys just started coming in the Attitude Error, Undertaker, and, you know, your, your whole era of guys started going nuts and the ratings were on fire and everybody was watching the show and, you know, how do you not get into something like that? Then in my head was, well, how do I do that? You know, everybody else was going, can't wait to watch on Monday. And I'm like, I can't wait to be on Mondays. Like, how do I do this?

[Steve Austin]

Okay, so you made your debut on October 28, 2005, East Coast Professional Wrestling, under the ring name Donnie the body Johnson. At 17, you're making your debut. How long did you train before you got in the ring and who was training you?

[Bull James]

It's weird. I won't. There's never like one person I kind of give credit to. I've kind of been fortunate enough to be around a lot of really good guys. There were a lot of guys on the Northeast Independence because I was training for about eight months before my first match, and guys like Judas Young and Kodiak Baer and Danny Inferno, guys that had, you know, been journeying the guys for, you know, the majority of their careers, but they knew their stuff and they were respected in the area and they kind of, you know, would pull me aside and teach me stuff because I was always at the school. The school was open four days a week and I was there every day. I didn't care if I had to quit one job and pick up another crappy job, just to had my days open to go and do that and. And they were real helpful towards me. And then, you know, just as time goes on, you just meet different people. And, you know, guys like Danny Doring and Mikey Whipwreck and Tommy Dreamer have all helped me out along the way. And then guys like Matt Bourne, like we've talked about, really went out of his way to, okay, sit down, kid, this is how you do this. And then from there, Taz opened up his finishing school and I got accepted to that, and I came in and worked with him for over a year. And it just kind of all built, you know, one thing on top of the other and kind of just got me to where I am now.

[Steve Austin]

Hey, let's get to Taz and let's get to Matt Bourne here in a minute, because Matt Bourne is a name that was near and dear to me because when I was breaking in, in the USWA way back in 1989, you know, Matt Bourne was instrumental in really teaching me, you know, some of the, you know, trade secrets or tricks of the trade. And going down the road with him, hell, I made a road trip with him from Dallas all the way to Atlanta to a WCW television tape at a center stage and back. And that guy was an absolute riot. And of course, you know, he's a pretty wild guy on top of that, but he knew his stuff. When you say you were taught by a lot of journeyman guys and you mentioned a few names and guys have been successful on the independent scene, some of those guys are the best guys to learn from because they are very good hands in the ring. So at 17, when you start getting trained by the guys that you just mentioned, were you still in high school?

[Bull James]

I was just out of high school. I graduated when I was 17 and started training probably, I want to say, with maybe like two or three months left in my senior year. So technically, yeah, but I was on my way out.

[Steve Austin]

So if you're training with these guys, what did the training structure start with? I mean, because for me, it was rolling, taking a few tumbles, learning how to take a flat back bump. Those were the basics. Just learn how to fall and protect yourself. And then we kind of learn a little bit of chain wrestling, which is actually difficult for me to pick up. You're a big man. 62300. How did these guys who aren't your size develop you and give you your structure, your base knowledge?

[Bull James]

It was funny. I still hadn't even hit, like a real growth spurt yet. I hadn't grown into my body at all. So I wasn't the size I am now, but I was. I knew enough to listen. And I knew, you know, when I was going to start training, I made it a point to read every single wrestling autobiography because they had just started becoming like, the hot thing. So I read everything and then the one constant, and it was show up, keep your mouth shut, shake everybody's hand. So I knew enough to at least do that. And just from that alone kind of carried over to a lot of these guys noticing me because of that and wanting to help me. And a lot of it, you know, my first couple months was on the outside of the ring learning hold and learn how to lock up and get stretched. Because it was one of those things where if you're going to step foot in the ring, you're going to respect it and it's going to be something.

[Steve Austin]

That you earn when you were working with these guys, and you started taking your first bookings and doing some of your first shows. How long was it after you were in the process of actually having matches before you went to the finishing school by Tas?

[Bull James]

I was maybe five or six years in. It wasn't really until. Or maybe even a little less. Maybe like four or five. So I had had, you know, a good decent amount of matches, and, you know, I had worked with guys like Matt, you know, leading up to that. And then that was when Taz opened up his school and I sent, you know, my little video package, and he liked it and brought me in.

[Steve Austin]

So how much time did you spend with Taz?

[Bull James]

It was supposed to be six weeks, but it wound up being about a year and a half.

[Steve Austin]

So what was Taz able to refine in you or help you with?

[Bull James]

I think it was just intensity and slipping that gear and, you know, knowing when to turn the motor on and when to kind of keep it off. But a lot of it was really, you know, just finding that mean streak and that intensity. And that was what I think took me from being, you know, a good hand to somebody that maybe WWE would be interested in.

[Steve Austin]

I'm glad you said that. And that's a compliment to Taz, because that's one of the things in watching your work that I notice your main streak, and I notice flipping a switch. I. And a lot of guys, I talk about this anytime I talk about the business. If it's a baby face, I'm talking about fire, I'm talking about selling. If it's a heel, I'm talking about a mean streak. And yes, you do have that. And when you flip the switch and it's time to go in aggressive mode and start whooping ass, you do. So compliment to Taz for teaching you that, and compliment to you for being able to execute it like you do. With that being said, let's talk about the illustrious Matt Bourne, because if you're listening to this podcast, you don't know who Matt Bourne is. Guy from Portland, Oregon. I guess he spent a lot of time in the Portland territory. I always figured he was born and raised in Portland, came down to Dallas with me, ended up in several different promotions. But probably his biggest run that maybe many people don't know, as he was Doink the Clown, and, you know, you got this guy dressed as a clown. He's got makeup on. There were different people that they would put in that makeup or in that suit. Suit, but nobody was able to pull off the doink the clown character like Matt Bourne did. Because when Matt Bourne put on that makeup and that clown suit, you'd think it was all about laughing and joking and he's going to go out there and make people laugh. But, man, that guy had a scary side to him and his subtleties, the way he made that character. I don't know if the character was given to him as a ribbon by Vince McMahon, because you know how that creative process goes up there, at least at the NXT level on the big stage. There's been a lot of ribs that have been passed out, but Matt Bourne turned that into a legitimate gimmick that I thought was awesome.

[Bull James]

Yeah, he ran with it and, you know, it was. It was something that I had talked to him about because I was always, you know, that original doink scared the hell out of me, you know, as a kid. But just knowing how he just decided to jump into it, to me was something I think that, you know, I give him a lot of credit for. Because it's hard to go from a guy who was pretty much raised in the business and, you know, his dad cuffed Tony Bourne to kind of be this serious killer and kind of raise him the same way and in the business as a tough guy and to have to go and do something like, hey, we're going to make you a clown. I know there was a lot of backlash from some of the guys in the locker room from what he told me, but that, you know, Vince believed in it and he knew that if Vince believed in it, then he could believe in it.

[Steve Austin]

I remember way back in the day in Dallas, Texas, man, I might have been the opening match, I might have been second or third. I don't know. I was just lucky to be on a card. And back in those days, you know, Matt Bourne was working programs with the Von Erichs, with all the top guys, but at one particular point, he's working kind of mid card program with Jimmy Jack Funk, also out of that Portland territory from Sandy bars. What is it? Jesus Christ. Anyway, back to Jim Jack Funk and Matt Bourne. And they were going out and having these 15 minute baby face mashes and going to 15 minute Broadway. And I'm telling you, man, for a 15 minute Broadway and from top to bottom, the main event couldn't follow what those two guys were doing in the ring because that's how good they were, that's how good the story they were telling was. And that's the kind of chemistry they had. And so I just never figured either one of those guys got the credit they deserve. But to me, it seems like when Matt got the call to go to wwe, I'm just guessing, hey, this was his break. And then I don't know if it was a rib, but just his take on that character. Did you ever ride down the road with him or were you guys just friends in the locker room?

[Bull James]

Yeah, there was actually plenty of times where he lived in South Jersey at the time, and I was doing a lot of New Jersey independence, so he would ask me what I had coming up or if we were on a show together. His girlfriend had an extra room in the house, so she would always just. He'd invite me over to stay and, you know, we'd stay up and drink some beers and watch wrestling and talk shop. And then she'd cook us breakfast in the morning and I'd go on my way. But I got to spend, you know, those hours with him of just kicking back and really relaxed environment and just watching wrestling and just talking shop. It was really, you know, just, hey, watch this guy. Or here, I got some tapes to show you. Here, take this and watch it when you get home. Just so many. Just different insights about things. And he was really big on having me watch Terry Funk and Bruiser Brody. And, you know, just because Terry would go out there and have a different match every night. And that was the thing that he, like, admired the most about Terry Funk was that Terry would go out there and do something completely different every single night and still garner a reaction.

[Steve Austin]

Man, that's so awesome to hear that. Because a lot of times guys would just get caught in a cycle and it'll be depending on the loop, depending on the territory, same match night after night. But did you by chance, just because I'm so curious, did he take that doink gimmick? Did he think it was a rib played on him? Or did you ask him the thought process to come up with that evil character that he did? Because there's two people that I can remember actually scaring kids at a WWF event, Number one being the Undertaker. When he made his debut so many years ago, when they showed the camera, when the camera showed the kids out there in the front row, mid crowd, whenever the kids were absolutely scared to death, they didn't know what they were seeing. And then Matt Bourne, not to the degree that Undertaker did, because undertaker was six'10, you know, 300. But Dorn, the evil subtleties. Just the way he'd laugh, the way he'd torture a guy. He scared people. Did you ever ask him about how he Created that gimmick, that Persona.

[Bull James]

I did. And, you know, it's funny because we would always talk about it. And I know the obvious is that he watched it, the Stephen King movie. You know, he would always kind of credit that. But he would also watch, like a lot of the early Batmans with. With the joke with a Joker and kind of take from that. And then Nicholson had done it in the original Batman movie. And then the other thing, though, that I thought was interesting was he stole a lot of the antics and stuff from Moondog, Maine back in Portland. And I guess Lonnie, Maine was a guy who was always ribbon in the locker room. And Matt would kind of see Lonnie doing that and then as a kid, like, terrorize the boys and start ripping them and putting locks on people's things. Like they wanted to kill him. But his dad was, you know, pretty high up or promoting some of the town, so they couldn't, you know, they wouldn't touch. But he kind of took that and morphed that into doink, which I always thought was really, really cool.

[Steve Austin]

You probably got Matt Bourne. What year was it when you were hanging out with him and you were under his learning tree?

[Bull James]

I want to say from 2009 on until he passed.

[Steve Austin]

Okay, in 2009. And I was around him in 89, 90, maybe a little bit. Yeah, 89, 90. And man, you know, if you subtract those years and do the math, he was still a pretty young guy. And, you know, you know, Matt, he was salty. He would fight anybody he wasn't looking to fight, but he wasn't going to back down from a fight. He would party like there was no tomorrow, you know, if the occasion called for it. But he was a guy that pulled a lot of ribs, enjoyed seeing ribs, but also he had bled a lot of that personality because, as you know, Matt was pretty sarcastic. He's very funny, but also very dry. And he was also a guy who, if you watched Matt in the dress room, he observed everything. And I think some of those, the qualities that I just mentioned, he put into doink. But it just took my conversation with you to realize that that was kind of Matt being Matt, watching the things that you said he watched, but then turning it up, like I always say.

[Bull James]

To an 11, for sure, it was funny. Like the first. First interaction I had with him, we were booked against each other on a show. And, you know, I kind of knew he's an old school guy. He's not gonna want this young kid to come up to him. That he's never met. And, you know, hey, I want to do this, this, and this and this. So I just asked him, you know, what do you want to do for a finish? And he, you know, he told me, you know, watch, boot in the corner, whoopee cushion. And I said, okay, thank you, and I walked away. And it threw him completely off because I think he was waiting for, you know, the, oh, I have this big move that I do, and I have this, and I just walked away. And then he kept kind of, like, coming up to me and, hey, if I tell you to do this, then I mean this. Okay, thank you. And I'd walk away from him again. And he was just so, like, thrown by it. And I remember, like, a couple years later, he finally admitted to it, that, like, that was what made him realize I like this kid because I was like, I was kind of ripping him when he. When he thought that, you know, I'd be over there trying to call spots with him.

[Steve Austin]

This was a pretty good story about how a wily guy with five, six years under your belt kind of works the wily veteran. Because to your point, I mean, and not so much that you worked him, but you just weren't going to befuddle him with a bunch of talk about, hey, let's do this. Can we do this? The old eager beaver routine, which anybody that's ever been in a business, from a grizzled vet to the young guy, who is that guy that goes on, does that for those guys. It just gets under your skin. It's like, we'll call it out there, kid. Relax. And so I could just see why it would gravitate towards you after that story, man. How did Matt ultimately pass? Because I had just started communicating with Matt through Twitter, and like I said back in the day, it was his idea. Hey, Steve, let's drive to wcw, see if we can get booked. I said, hell, I'm in. And we drove all the way up there and drove all the way back. We didn't get booked, but I spent a lot of time with Matt and we had a lot of fun together. But what was the reason that he ultimately passed? Was it OD or what?

[Bull James]

The ME's report was an overdose, but I know for a while there was. The police were doing, like, a homicide investigation, so nobody. Nobody still really knows what happened. There's just a bunch of different theories about it. I'm just grateful that the week before he passed, I got to spend a couple nights at his house hanging out with him. And you know, right before I started my drive to Florida to start working at nxt, so to kind of have that, it was kind of like, you know, my chance to say goodbye. Obviously, I didn't know that at the time, but I'm glad that I had it because I can always look back on it now. And it's funny because the last thing he said to me, he actually mentioned your name. And he said. He goes, I'm gonna tell you something that I've only told to Steve Austin and the Undertaker. He goes, you're gonna make a million dollars in this business. And that was the last thing he ever said to me. So I always have that. It always kind of helped to drive me, too, man.

[Steve Austin]

That's pretty damn cool. That's awesome, actually. I don't think you've ever. You didn't tell me that story last time we were talking. We've only had two or three.

[Bull James]

No, I've never. I've never. I've never actually told it. It's kind of. Yeah, I was just thinking about it now. Kind of brought it out, man.

[Steve Austin]

Okay. I'm glad you told me that because, you know, like I said, we just started communicating a little bit on Twitter and it seemed like Matt was in just because Matt had a few demons, but it just seemed like he was getting himself in a much better place. And then he was gone. And I was like, God dang. I just gotten back in touch with this guy and now I'll never speak to him again. This November, action is free on Pluto tv. Go on the run with Jack Reacher.

[Bull James]

Every suspect was a train killer.

[Steve Austin]

Then buckle up for drive. World War Z.

[Adam Carolla]

Every human being we save Just one.

[Bull James]

Less fight and Charlie's Angels.

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Damn, I hate to fly.

[Steve Austin]

Launch into sci fi adventure with the fifth Element and laugh through the mayhem in Tropic Thunder.

[Bull James]

What is going on here?

[Steve Austin]

All the thrills, all for free. Pluto TV stream now pay never. Let's go to, you know, your time in indies, your time with Matt Bourne, under that learning tree. Your time with T. He put off a light bulb in your brain as far as the fire and the main streak and that intensity which you still display to this day. So then if you're on the indie scene, all of a sudden, you get a call in 2013 to go down to the NXT Performance Center. Did you send them something? Did they just say, hey, man, this guy looks like he's got potential. He's got size, he's got intensity. Let's bring him in? How did you end up in The NXT system.

[Bull James]

So it's funny because Matt kind of ties into that too, because like you said, you kind of sit back and watch how things kind of progressed. And before he made a move on anything. And all my friends are going for years getting booked as extras, doing dark matches. At that point, you could pay for tryouts. They're paying for tryouts, just. And they would just get brought back every time, but they were never nothing, whatever break for them. So I kind of said, you know what? Let me. Let me wait till I feel like I'm ready, and then I'll just take a shot. And then in the meantime, I had done a tryout for Ring of Honor. They said no. Taz was still working at tna. He got me a couple dark matches with them. They said no. And I was kind of down, down and out a little bit, but I was still plugging away and doing indies and everything. And I had met Bill DeMotte on an indie show a few years prior, probably, and he was back down as a head coach. But I also didn't want to be the guy that's going, hey, you remember me now, your head coach? And here's my stuff. So I just reached out to him one night and he got right back to me like five minutes later and, hey, send your stuff here. Tell him I told you to call and good luck with everything. I said, okay, that's a start. And then I called the office and then they, you know, because Bill said, book me. They booked me, like, right away. I went in, work the match just in the ring, before the doors even open. And that was when Scott Armstrong and William Regal and Arn Ayers kind of pulled me aside after that and took a liking to me. Then there was just. I went back, I cut a promo that day that Regal really, really liked. He still talks about it sometimes, just always funny to me because he's a guy who's known for being able to pretty much pull off anything. And, you know, to be an example that he uses is always really humbling. And from there, went back and did extra work again. And then that was when I was told I had a tryout that February.

[Steve Austin]

So how did the tryout go?

[Bull James]

The hardest three days of my life. You know, just non stop cardio and. And stuff of that nature. And. But I kind of had an end because Matt was, you know, Matt had reached out to Bill on my behalf. He had reached out to Jerry Briscoe on my behalf. I know during the tryout, I think JR and Taz talked a little Bit just about, you know, character stuff and what kind of person I was. And then I just kind of. I remember hitting it off with Dusty afterwards, after I cut my promo.

[Steve Austin]

So. So what was your relationship with Dusty? Because, you know, I was in it. No, you got to give some Dusty stories because I'm watching a lot of your work. Great left jab. And then a lot of times you'll follow it up with the Dusty elbow. So I saw that. I also saw kind of when you're sending a guy in or off a high spot, kind of that Vader bomb or Vader thing in the middle of the ring. Did that move come from Vader?

[Bull James]

Yeah, and I think it was. It might have been Bill. We were just kind of going over stuff and how to, like, make something that somebody else is my own. And I know Vader would kind of stand with it. So then I think Bill had the idea to kind of have me, like jump with it and land over top of him.

[Steve Austin]

Okay. I was wondering where that influence came from. Before we get into the conversation about Dusty and everything that he meant to you just physically in the ring other than the guys that trained you, maybe that thing from Vader, Is there anybody else? And you mentioned, like, watching funk matches and Bruce and Brody matches, but was there any other person that was influential with the style that you have now?

[Bull James]

I always loved Adrian Adonis work and Dick Murdoch and Dusty and those kind of guys. And I think that was the biggest thing, like kind of how Matt transformed into Doink and kept that mean streak. Adonis at the time was like a groundbreaking character. But when he got his heat, you knew it. I always. I always admired that because it was. He would take these flashing bumps and all this stuff and do all this character stuff, but when it was time for him to kick somebody's ass, he kicked their ass, man.

[Steve Austin]

You know, I think. And Adrian Adonis is another guy that doesn't get enough credit. Because I'll always tell people he's one of my favorite workers as well. Well, just because, you know, when you saw him towards the end of his WWF run, I mean, he, you know, he had. Before he was tag teaming with Jesse the Body, but when he got into WWF and was just a solo act, that's when I really loved his work. When he's wearing the lipstick or the makeup and all that stuff. But he was a great hand in the ring. Shined up the babyface. But, man, when it came to get the heat, he turned into a different person. He flipped the switch. He just had this unbelievable mean streak. He was nasty, he was mean, he was foul. And you know, he was a left handed guy. So his feeds for an arm drag, he was heavy, but he could take any bump in the world. His feeds for the arm drag were basically the extension of a punch which warranted being arm dragged. That facilitated arm drag a lot of times these days because it's been just lost in transition or lost through the days. Guys are just getting arm dragged because it's part of a high spot. Adrian threw that as a punch or trying to reach for a guy and ended up getting arm dragged. I don't know if you ever noticed that or not, but to your credit or to your point, Adrian Donis was a fantastic worker. So let's get back to Dusty going under the learning tree. He hears you got a promo. How does he come up to you? Obviously you know who he is. How's this conversation go?

[Bull James]

Oh, it was funny. I was talking to him. So there's a bunch of guys at that tryout. And I remember I was stayed up like the whole night. I'm like, I need to come up with a promo that's gonna impress these guys and blah, blah, blah. I'm like in my own head about it. To the point where I think I was completely screwed. I think I totally got lay in my own head. And then to the point where I just said screw it. I'm just gonna cut a promo on what everybody else cuts promo on. I'm just really gonna use their promos, do one on the fly. Because I said either they'll respect the fact that I have the guts to do it and can do it if I pull it off, or I'll fall flat on my face. But at least, you know, at least I'll give something different than what everybody else is doing. And I use like a bunch of examples from different promos and kind of tied it all into mine and buried them, put myself over. And then afterwards, Dusty was telling a story about how him and Murdoch were at a bar picking up girls and in the booth and she didn't have any legs. And then there was something else, which you didn't have any arms. But then later on the story, he said something that he took her hand and brought her out to the dance floor. So then he asked everybody if they believed the story. And everybody's kind of like nodding their head yes because nobody wants to say no. And then I raised my hand. Yeah, what is it? I said, how did you take your hand if she didn't have any Arms. And he just kind of sat back and smiled because somebody called him out. Because you speak from there, that was it.

[Steve Austin]

Yeah, but also, I think you had to appreciate the fact that when you cut your promo, the fact that you sat back and listened and then responded. And so many, so many promos are manufactured these days because it's one thing to go out and cut a promo, okay, that's that. But on the return, fire, really, you know, and everything's scripted these days. But back in the old days, before they started scripting things, you would listen to what a guy says and then you would respond accordingly. So you were smart enough to have. And had the balls enough to, hey, man, let me just wing this. Listen to what these guys said. Fire back on them, bury them. Get yourself over. Put yourself over. And the fact that you called Dusty out on the fact that the person didn't have arms, you were listening. So many people these days do not listen. So then how does this relationship evolve? And how influential was Dusty on your promos or just on the character? Did he help you with who and what? Bull Dempsey at that time was for sure.

[Bull James]

And I think he had the best understanding of it, too. And I remember it was just little stuff to give me confidence. He would always refer to a guy. He would always say, guys like us when he would talk to me. So, right. Right then and there, like, that was always huge to me because I looked up to him and admired him so much. To have him say guys like us, even if he didn't mean it that way or if he did, I, you know, I'll never know. But it just. It always kind of just boosted my confidence of, like, hell, yeah, I belong here, right? And I belong standing in front of this guy and having him help, help me. And I think because he also knew my relationship with Matt, and Matt was one of the first guys he brought in when he took the book in WCW when he was big Josh. And I think that kind of softened him up to me a little bit. And I think just, I'm. I would just always go and bother him, too. I'd always go sit in his office and try to get as much as I could from him. And I think he respected that because, you know, he's the American dream. He likes the attention.

[Steve Austin]

Was anybody else trying to get at him or, you know, get his attention or get under the learning tree?

[Bull James]

Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, everybody there that knew who he was and even the people that didn't, even the people that came in, I think they were Just the way Dusty carried himself, they just knew, okay, this is somebody I should be around, you know?

[Steve Austin]

And it's funny that you would say that even people that came in that wouldn't know who he was because, you know, Dusty's generation was a couple of decades ago. And, of course, I remember him vividly. He's one of my favorite professional wrestlers of all time and one of the reasons I got into the business. And also, my mother actually went to high school with Dusty in Austin, Texas. But it's just funny, you know, all these years, you know, and you're much younger than me. You're 28. But, you know, to think that, you know, some of these amateur wrestlers that they're recruiting these days, some of these football players that they're recruiting who maybe aren't good enough to play professional football, but maybe have the, you know, the size, the structure, the frame, the charisma to be a professional wrestler. They're recruiting these kind of people, then, hey, man, they might not necessarily be wrestling fans, and they may not know who this heavyset older guy is who just walks around in his Wrangler blue jeans. He happens to be, or happened to be one of the greatest professional wrestlers and most charismatic in the history of the business.

[Bull James]

Yeah, and it's the way he would come off, too, you know, this Hemi set guy with a lisp who's like you said, walking around in his regular jeans and talking a whole bunch of nonsense about, what are they gonna do, fire me? Or, you know, just spitting out whatever he wants. Like, it was just such a change of pace from the structured, you know, the structured training that we had every day where it was just show up, do your job, work hard, you know, and then all of a sudden, just here's dream, walking around going, tell him to fire me. I don't care. I'm going to Mile.

[Steve Austin]

Hey, let's talk about the NXT training system down there. Because as you came in, shoot, if you went there in 13. So you've been working eight years, give or take, when you go into the NXT system, correct?

[Bull James]

Just about, yeah.

[Steve Austin]

Okay, so as I've heard Triple H say in the past, you know, you can be wherever and learn from all these great people, but you got to come in and kind of, you know, learn the WWE playbook. That's kind of almost a direct quote, paraphrased. So what, is the Playbook over? Or maybe not. What's. What's the Playbook? Or here's how we do things. But tell me about the Training program. Because as a guy who comes in as a veteran, what did they teach you? Did they clean up your mechanics? Did they make your fundamentals stronger?

[Bull James]

Well, I mean, I know I definitely walked out of there 10 times better than I walked in, but I would say as far as, you know, maybe my psychology or what, there was a lot of stuff that, that Taz worked with me on that really, I didn't realize till after I got there ahead of the eight ball with a lot of the things they were trying to get out of guys like that gear change and that flip of a switch, but I was already doing it. So I remember I was doing a match with Mojo Raleigh and it was designed as a get over for him and I got maybe like a mix of anything and I just flipped the gear on him in the corner. And the story that I heard after that was, as I'm going off on him, Hunter turned around and took his headset off and said, hey, who's that guy? And then Road Dog came and got me after that match and Hunter stood up from behind, from behind the monitor, shook my hand, told me it was money and that to get ready I was gonna go on TV soon. So I think with a lot of that stuff where, yeah, there was a lot of things like Norman Smiley, Robbie Brookside, those guys made me such a better wrestler and hand. But when it came to intensity and stuff like that, it was almost like I was ahead of the curve, almost walking in.

[Steve Austin]

What does the day consist of down there? Do you wake up at 6, be at the Performance center at 8 or 9, do calisthenics, a warm up, get in the ring, go through basics, then hit the weights. What is a day like in life when you're down there in the learning system before you get on TV and.

[Bull James]

After, it is your life, you know, like you said, it's exactly what it is. You're up early, you're there early. You're either in the gym first or in the ring first, and then vice versa after that. There's extra training classes every day, which aren't mandatory, but if you want to get better, why aren't you there? There's promo room, there's a green screen room to work on character stuff or maybe make some music videos or try to, you know, come up with something to pitch to the writers. Promo classes, you know, you could be in there from 8 in the morning to 8 at night. Some days, you know, it really is your life. And then the weekends before they started really going on, on the road, it was a lot of the Florida live events, but that was, you know, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and you're training in the morning and you're getting in the car, Then you're setting up the ring, doing the show, breaking the ring down, getting back in the car, trying to get a couple hours of sleep to get back to training the next morning. So it's hectic.

[Steve Austin]

How many people are down there at any given time? Because, man, I saw the last recruiting class go in there, and it looked to be about 20, 25 people, but that was 20 to 25 people that they're bringing into the people that are already there. So how many human bodies are there? If you figured in trainers and trainees, how many people are at that center? I'm guessing 100.

[Bull James]

Well, I know 100 was the goal. Like, that was always the number thrown around of, we want 100 people in here. From the day I got hired till the day that I was released. I don't know if they've hit 100 yet, but I know. I think the most it ever got to when I was there was mid-70s, maybe pushing 80, and the lowest is maybe 60 or 65.

[Steve Austin]

What's the dropout rate?

[Bull James]

It's funny because I didn't think it was. It was much until I just, like, now going back, I'm finding pictures, and there's always group photos like, wow, that guy quit, or this guy lasted two weeks. You know, it's pretty high because if you really break it down, because there was one fitness model who came in and she was going to give it a shot, and I think she, like, did two forward rolls and got up and said, this isn't for me, and walked out.

[Steve Austin]

You know, it's funny, boy, because growing up as a kid, you wanted to be a pro wrestler, and growing up as a kid, I wanted to be a pro wrestler. And so I just figured, like, man, doesn't everybody want to be a pro wrestler? And. No, they don't. There's teachers, there's people in coal mines, and there's insurance salesmen, and there's surgeons, and there's all kinds of other things to do. But to me, it was just so in my head. But it really is amazing that once you get a newcomer, it doesn't matter what. Whether they were an AAU wrestler or a football player. Once you get inside that 20 by 20 and just start going through the paces, Whether it's the bumps, it's just the chain wrestling or whatever it is, some people are allergic to it, and they just don't last. I had a similar encounter. Not so much like the fitness model, but in tough enough in 2011, Miss USA. It was a really, really nice girl, but her trying to take a bump was just agonizing to watch. And we voted her off the show. But at least she was game enough to give it a shot. But she was just allergic to taking bumps. When you first got in, how were you with the bumps and all that? Was it something that Jesus said, hey man, I love this, give me more of it?

[Bull James]

Oh yeah, I loved it. The first time I learned how to take a backdrop, I was like, oh, I want to take another one. I want to do this and I want to do that and okay, slow down. You know, everybody that had been around for a while going, alright, easy kid, you're not going to want to take these bumps in a couple years.

[Steve Austin]

Well, and you, you have a very physical style. I mean the diving, head butts and the other stuff, you do some high impact stuff now. It's all grounded in reality. It's a safe style. But how do you feel now after some 11 years in the business?

[Bull James]

I am a little banged up. But you know, from, from what I've seen out of other guys and guys that do work maybe more of a fast paced or you know, a style with more bumps and stuff, I'm, I'm pretty fortunate and knock on wood, to this day, no major injuries. I've always been healthy, I've always taken care of myself, always protected my body and protected my opponent. So I think, you know, so far so good. Like I said, knock on wood. But I've been very fortunate so far.

[Steve Austin]

The chances of making in the business of entertainment and anything you do I think is very tough. And especially so with pro wrestling. You were able to make it on the independent scene, get the call up, go to nxt and then all of a sudden they start, you come out with a bang. I like how you were squashing people. I liked how physical your style in the ring was. You couldn't see through it. It looked like a chute. And then all of a sudden you go try to the Mojo Raleigh thing. Hunter says that's going to be money. They end up giving that gimmick to Mojo Raleigh and they give you the bullfit gimmick. What happened there along the way between your first days there, you kind of settle in, you're clipping along and then, hey, maybe you tried that gimmick. Whatever happened to it? Then you start doing the bullfit gimmick and then Go back to just a regular gimmick, and then you're out the door. What happened along the way during those years?

[Bull James]

So some people will say that it's because Baron Corbin and I feuded and they put him over because they wanted him to be the star. Then there's other people, like, this is all, you know, people online and think that they know what they're talking about. And then there's the argument of, well, he was doomed when Kevin Steen came in. I know. I had a conversation with, with Hunter and with Bill, and they both had told me, you know, hey, Kevin's coming in. You guys kind of look the same. You kind of work the same. And my argument was, no, we don't. We're two different people. We don't work the same style. We're two different characters completely. And it's funny because Kevin and I had like a long three or four hour road trip maybe like six months after he came in. And I finally, I just told them. I was like, yeah, I go like, there was like, I felt like guys trying to light a fire under my ass by telling me that you're taking my spot. I'm like, but we're not the same guy. He laughed about it because he said, like, you're right, we're completely different. But I think once somebody makes up their mind, all it takes is one or two guys maybe around them to kind of agree with it. And that's sometimes all it takes.

[Steve Austin]

Well, I would agree with you. First of all, you could say you almost look similar because you're not bodybuilders. You're both big guys. I wouldn't say you look the same. I definitely don't think you work the same. I think your temperaments are different. I think your personalities are different. So I can't agree with that. I mean, it'd be like, okay, if someone that looked like superstar Billy Graham is the guy in your place, and then another guy that looks like superstar Billy Graham comes in, do you think they're going to tell the other guy that looks like superstar Billy Graham, hey, we're going to get rid of you. You think it's a body thing? Because way back in the day, when. Not way back in the day, but a few years back when Bray White came in as Husky Harris, I was really pulling for that kid because here was a guy who wasn't a body guy per se, and of course, comes from all the wrestling background that he comes from. Second, third generation with the Windham, with Rotunda being his father. All that stuff, I mean, second generation guy related to Barry Wyndham and kind of moved like Barry Wyndham, to tell you the truth, more than anybody. And I was cheering for the guy because he wasn't a body guy. And then of course, finally reinvented himself as Bray Wyatt. But that was one of the things, or it's one of the things that I still miss about the business today. When I was coming up watching stuff in the mid-80s, you had your guys, you had a few body guys, but most of the guys were either regular physiques. You had that flare physique that kind of looked like your classic wrestler. And you had the road warriors, you had Dusty Rhodes, you had a bruiser Brody. There were all these different body types from ecto meso to Endo. And to me, that was refreshing. Therefore, a period of time, I go back maybe, maybe six, eight years when I first started FCW or whatever it was back in the day, everybody that they recruited looked like they just came out of the gym, they just came out of a tanning bed, and maybe they had a tattoo or so, and everybody looked the same. And to me, one of the best things I like about pro wrestling is the difference in the physique. I don't want to see a bunch of bodybuilders in the wrestling. One guy's got to get a great physique. Tremendous. What are your thoughts on that?

[Bull James]

I completely agree. And, you know, I know when we've talked, we've obviously talked like about it, and there was, you know, there's. There was a good four or five months when I first got released where it was just like a depression and it sucks. You don't know what to do with yourself because you're used to this grind. And now it's like the complete 180. Go do a couple shows on the weekends and all right now what do I do with myself during the week? Like, I'm still making money and still doing okay, but, you know, what do I do? So, you know, now it's just getting myself back into a real structured training regimen and trying to just undo the last couple months of just sitting around a little bit. But it's never like, I don't ever want to be that guy with a six pack because as long as there's people coming up, to me, it shows. And they do it every show that I wrestle. And guys, you know, guys or kids or anybody, women, you know, saying, you know, hey, these guys, there's like, a lot of these guys look like they're in shape, but it's nice to see somebody different who can keep up with them. And I get it a lot. And it's actually like, surprising how many times, like I get people who are like, it's, you know, tell me it's an inspiration to them or just how much they enjoy my stuff because I don't look a certain way. So I think as long as there's people out there that feel that way, I'm not going to go and change who I am just to appease, you know, a group of people with maybe a bigger voice than others.

[Steve Austin]

And there's another thing that goes along with that bull. I mean, you know, you can't. We're all given a deck of cards and you're playing the cards that you've been given with respect to genetics and DNA. Hey, man, I can work out like a banshee, but I'm never going to look like the Ultimate Warrior just because there's no way impossible. That guy has great genetics, but you just use what you got to work the best for you. And so there's been many guys that don't look like some bodybuilder just came off the beach to make it in our business. I always tell people, some people that are still searching for the final gimmick that ends up bringing them success, that, you know, when I look back at pictures, when I started as Stunning Steve, yeah, it's a pretty decent looking kid with long blonde hair and I didn't have any facial hair. And then, you know, I went to Stunning Steve and WCW and Flying Brian with the Hollywood Blondes. And if you lined everybody up, you know, and said to the executives who are running WCW, hey man, I want you to pick 20 of the top guys out of that 40 standing there against the wall, because those are the guys that we run with, I don't think I would have been picked because I didn't stand out in a lineup. You know, I wasn't the biggest guy there, wasn't the best looking guy there. I could work pretty good. But you're just going on appearance. And then when I look at pictures that I see on people that post on Twitter of some of my formative years, the stunning Steve Austin days, and then when I started losing my hair in WCW and I went with that short haircut that looked like crap, and it's like, man, everything's an evolution, whether it's a style of your wrestling, which I changed when I got dropped on my head, or the style when they brought me into wwf And I gave myself the same haircut that Bruce Willis had in Pulp Fiction. And then as I was rooming with Dustin Rhodes, as he was running his Goldust back in the day, and we were working Pittsburgh at Mellon arena and I said, hey, man, I'm just going to shave all this hair off. There's an evolution in either presentation of work. I don't think you need to change that. But have you thought any of just changing the gimmick, changing the attire, working with that? How deep have you thought about that as far as trying to make the transformation that could be the one that rings the bell for you or says to wwe, hey man, we need to bring this kid back.

[Bull James]

Well, it's funny, I was like, the first thing I did was design a whole new set of gear, a whole new look because I didn't want to be somebody who had, you know, I had like this mildly successful comedy character on nxt. I didn't want to try to go and work indies for the next five years just rehashing that gimmick and being that guy. Because then it's just, you're pretty much done after that. My thing was, let me get back to the serious stuff when I was really rolling every now and again, yeah, sure, a house show type environment or an indie show and I can have some fun, yeah, we can cut loose with some stuff. But for the most part, I want to stick through the stuff that got me there in the first place and being that big guy with a motor who makes everything look believable. And I think I've been successful with doing that. And then, like I said, every now and again, there's stuff that a Norman Smiley or Sara Amato or Robbie Brookside or Regal or Finley has thrown at me, you know, over the course of my time there that I maybe wasn't able to use as much as I wanted or at all. And now I can throw it in whenever I want and it kind of gives people, oh, wow, he can do other stuff. He can wrestle, he can do this, he can hang with the younger guys or with the smaller guys. So I think the first, the first thing I did was try to, you know, kind of reinvent myself and not go back to what I was, but just kind of update it.

[Steve Austin]

Man, I tell you what, to just go on the same note of what you were saying about, hey, every now and then you can do some ha ha, you know, back in the days, I guess I think it was before I really got hot. I was feuding with. I wasn't Feuding. I was working in some small town outside of Toronto with the Fake Razor. And, you know, it was one of those nights where there wasn't a whole lot of people there and all the boys were doing ha ha. And so, you know, it's not the kind of stuff that you would do on television or a major show because it's a major market. And you don't. First of all, you don't want to kill the town off, and you damn sure don't want to kill yourself off. But every now and then, yeah, you can have a little fun in the ring. But, you know, that being said, when you're at a big show, whether it's Ring of Honor or WWE or whatever, if you're trying to represent, you've got to be serious. Because I love some of the comedy acts, but to me, you know, for me, I like the serious stuff. I like serious wrestling. I love heat. I love when a baby face is over and when you can mix in some personal issues and create something there that's not so manufactured and it's a believable storyline. To me, that's when the magic happens. It's great to have a little comic relief. I did it here and there across the world, sometimes doing the chicken wing thing with Brett the Hitman Heart to see if I could make him smile. But to me, it's serious business, and that's just the way I see pro wrestling. Am I wrong? Because I just think that I like serious wrestling.

[Bull James]

No, I'm totally with you. And I remember, you know, there'd be times we're talking to some of the writers, and they would say, you know, well, you can't take yourself too serious. You know, Steve Austin did comedy. Kurt Angle, you know, played the guitar for Vince McMahon. And I'm saying, yeah, but they did so much before that. You know, you were established as Stone Cold. Kurt was an Olympic gold medalist who had a track record of being a top guy. Like, once you reach that point, then you can do all that stuff I said, but we need to get there first before I'm just doing comedy. And that would always be the battle that I would fight with them.

[Steve Austin]

Oh, I agree with that. You've got to get there first. And here's the thing. You know, when I was working Hill, it was not too long after I turned Hill against the rock at 17. That's when Booker T. Came in and put me through the table, and I broke three of the transverse processes in my back. So I had three broke bones in my back. Well, they don't fix those once they get crushed flat, flat, they just leave them like that. So I was in so much pain every time before I did work or before I did something, they'd have a doctor in there shooting me up 60 milligrams of Toradol, which is a non. Whatever. It's just a. It's a pain blocker. It's not any kind of a painkiller. It's a pain blocker just so I could work. So the reason I started doing that comedy stuff in the vein that I was doing was because I wasn't getting healers of heat. I couldn't work. I had three broken bones in my back. So I just needed to be entertaining because if you're not entertaining, then what are you? You've got to be something. And I couldn't do anything. So I created all the comedy stuff just to further push the envelope. And here's the thing about working heel. You know, I had such a run and set up such a base as a heel before then the monster baby stuff that parlayed into me being able to push the creative envelope any way I wanted to, because I could. And as a babyface, you have to have these certain endearing characteristics or traits or some moral compass or ethics. As a heel, you can be all over the place. At the end of the day, I could sing, play guitar, but once I got in the ring, I was going to beat your ass. So there's ways to get around being the comedian. So if someone comes up to me and says, or listens to the podcast, say, hey, man, you're talking about not doing any joking stuff because you want to be serious. You did a lot of that when you were heel. Oh yeah, I did. On the sidelines. When I came back to get in the ring, it wasn't no playing around, it was ass beating time. So anyway, let him jump off my high horse there. Bo. Let's get back to you. You're on the Indy scene. What you got coming up next?

[Bull James]

This weekend, October 14th and 15th, I'm in Pittsburgh, in Cleveland for Tommy Dreamer for House of Hardcore. And then I'm going the next weekend to Florida for Ring of Honor. I'll be in Fort Lauderdale October 21st wrestling Adam Cole and Lakeland on October 22nd. And then from there I go to the UK for a week and then I'm back home for some local stuff.

[Steve Austin]

Hey, man, that's awesome. I'm glad you're staying busy until Tommy Dreamer up, said hello, had him on the podcast. Podcast A long time ago, and he came to my hotel room in New York City and we laughed our asses off while we watched traffic from about 25 floors up in the air.

[Bull James]

I remember listening to him.

[Steve Austin]

He's one of. He's one. I barely know Tommy, but he's one of the nicest guys I've ever met in the business. So I'm glad you hook it up there. A ring of honor and all those dates over in England.

[Bull James]

Thanks for giving me a platform and thanks for, you know, trying to kind of guide me on the right path. I appreciate it.

[Steve Austin]

Anytime, Bo. Until we talk again. I'll catch you down the road.

[Bull James]

All right, I'll have a swig of beer for you.

[Steve Austin]

You got it. I'll talk to you later. All right, everybody, give me the go home cuse. I'm gonna wrap up his podcast and ride off in the sunset. When I say ride off in the sunset, I'm taking my ass to the gym. I'm training back today and I'm gonna do about 20 minutes of high intensity cardio. Hell, I'm making a comeback. No, not to the squared circle. Just getting my ass in shape. The quest continues as it always does, and the task at hand is go out there and bang out back and recover from my shoulder surgery. Hey, thanks to Bull James for being my guest today. It's always a pleasure to talk to that young man. He's got a good head on his shoulders and I wish him well. He's coming over there. You heard the dates? Tommy Dreamer's promotion. He's going to Ring of Honor. He's going over to the UK for four dates. You heard me plug those dates in the opening of the show and you just heard Bull drop them. So go check that man out. Tell him Austin sent you. Hey, before I sign off and give you some plugs, I'm going to give you guys something to watch on YouTube. A lot of times before I go to sleep, I'll get on YouTube and watch some of my old musicians that I watched back in the day. And some of you younger cats might not have ever heard of these people, so I'm going to start dropping some of these guys on you. Something to watch is Waylon Jennings. Check out his live performances because you can watch the ones that just got the still picture there, but when you watch the guys sing and play, he's so entertaining. Waylon's kind of one of the frontrunners of the outlaw country music way back in the day, and Waylon was a hell of a singer, he was a songwriter and when he kind of hit that outlaw country style, that's when he really took off. What a lot of people don't know about Waylon Jennings is there was a hell of a guitar player. That chicken picking style that he had, man, he was badass on a guitar. One of my favorite singers of all time, so check them out on YouTube. Are you sure? Hank Done it this Way is one of my favorites. Luckenbach, Texas, and I've always been crazy. Those are three songs that rock the damn jukebox anytime you push the buttons. And they rock your YouTube channel if you push it. And they'll rock you on the YouTube channel if you type in what I told you to type in. Waylon Jennings, one of the best to ever do it and an American original from Littlefield, Texas. I read his book some 10, 15 years ago and I don't remember nothing. But I remember where Waylon Jennings is from and had a dirt floor in that house. Go check out his book if you want to read about him. That's enough of me running my damn gums. Until then, my name is Steve Austin and I will catch your ass down the road. Download new episodes of the Steve Austin show Every [e-mail] that's podcastone.com.