How did Pakistan become the peacemakers?

Summary

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The Story – How Did Pakistan Become the Peacemakers?

Podcast: The Story, The Times
Hosts: Luke Jones, Manveen Rana
Guest: Christina Lam, Chief Foreign Correspondent, The Sunday Times
Date: May 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores Pakistan's unexpected emergence as a central mediator in the latest US-Iran ceasefire and its hosting of the first US-Iran high-level talks in 50 years. Chief foreign correspondent Christina Lam brings decades of experience reporting from Pakistan to dissect how a nation long associated with terrorism, military dominance, and complex international allegiances is now at the heart of major diplomatic negotiations. The discussion covers Pakistan's internal power structure, its foreign policy maneuvers, and the balancing act between East and West, along with candid reflections on the paradoxes and enduring challenges of Pakistani politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pakistan’s New Role as Mediator

Timestamps: 01:05–02:49

• Context: Amid a fragile ceasefire between the US and Iran, Pakistan is facilitating communication between both sides.
• Players Involved:
  • Field Marshal Asim Munir, Pakistan’s powerful army chief, is in direct contact with President Trump.
  • Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif communicates with Iran’s president.
• Historical Irony: The US previously labeled Pakistan a terrorist haven, yet it is now a diplomatic intermediary.
  • Quote (Luke Jones, 01:05): “The same Pakistan that the US not too long ago called a terrorist safe haven…”

2. Christina Lam’s Pakistan Reporting

Timestamps: 03:13–05:13

• Personal Background: Lam describes her first encounters with Pakistani politics, attending Benazir Bhutto’s wedding and being drawn into the country’s turbulent political scene.
  • Quote (Christina Lam, 03:57): “I was absolutely fascinated… I fell in love with it and thought, there’s no way I’m going to go back and cover local news in Birmingham.”
• Islamabad’s Character: The capital is contrasted with other chaotic Pakistani cities, described as modern, green, and “splendid.”

3. The Power Dynamics: Military vs. Civilian Government

Timestamps: 05:13–10:17

• Military Dominance: While Shahbaz Sharif is Prime Minister, true power lies with the military and particularly Field Marshal Asim Munir.
  • Quote (Christina Lam, 07:56): “The real power is the military and in particular the person who’s known as the field marshal, the army chief, General Azim Munir.”
• International Relations:
  • Strong ties between Field Marshal Munir and President Trump, including a public “favourite field marshal” endorsement and a White House lunch.
  • Trump’s claimed role in brokering peace during the 2025 India-Pakistan conflict, though the legitimacy of this achievement is debated.

4. Why Pakistan? Strategic Advantages and Diplomatic Leverage

Timestamps: 10:47–13:33

• Diplomatic Positioning:
  • Pakistan’s relationship with both Iran and the US is unique—centered on proximity, population demographics (large Shia community), and neutrality.
  • Unlike Gulf states, Pakistan hosts no US bases, maintaining a more independent position.
• National Motivation:
  • Hosting talks offers Pakistan a rare opportunity to rebrand itself from pariah to peacemaker.
  • Quote (Christina Lam, 12:52): “This is a country which for decades was really associated with terrorism and Talibanization … and suddenly they feel like they’re at the center of the globe.”

5. History of Shifting Alliances and Military Power

Timestamps: 16:03–23:42

• Cold War Legacy:
  • Pakistan’s ISI was the conduit for Western funds and weapons to Afghan mujahideen.
  • The West abandoned Pakistan after the Soviet withdrawal, leading to corruption and mistrust.
• Cycle of Relations:
  • US-Pakistan relations fluctuate: close when strategic, cold when not.
  • Quote (Christina Lam, 19:28): “America only seems to have close relations with Pakistan when there’s a military ruler. And then each time it goes wrong and they fall out.”
• Double Game Accusations:
  • Pakistan received Western funds to fight Al Qaeda but also supported the Taliban, resulting in profound mistrust.

6. Is Change Real, or Just a Shift in Perception?

Timestamps: 23:33–24:08

• Leadership & Governance:
  • Shahbaz Sharif is viewed as competent, with incremental improvements but myriad ongoing problems.
  • Lam emphasizes the change is more in perception than in Pakistan’s underlying realities.

7. Enduring Internal Challenges

Timestamps: 24:08–29:15

• Military’s Pervasive Influence:
  • The army controls vast sectors of the economy and society (“an army with a country rather than a country with an army”).
  • Recent constitutional amendments grant Field Marshal Munir immunity and control over all armed forces.
• Democracy in Peril:
  • Political leaders, including ex-PM Imran Khan, are frequently jailed by successors. Media faces unprecedented restrictions.
  • Quote (Christina Lam, 26:18): “Every time one of these political leaders has won elections, they’ve locked up their rivals.”
• Insurgency in Baluchistan:
  • The resource-rich province suffers from militarization and enforced disappearances—10,000 people have “disappeared” in 20 years.

8. Future Prospects: Mediation or Message Relay?

Timestamps: 29:15–31:10

• Role in Peace Process:
  • Actual mediation is limited; Pakistan shuttles proposals between sides, many rejected out of hand.
  • The success or failure of the current ceasefire may influence Pakistan’s future diplomatic clout.
• Internal Risk:
  • There’s a potential for increased scrutiny on Pakistan’s domestic issues if peace talks falter.

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Notable Quotes

• On Pakistan’s new diplomatic role:
  “This is a huge opportunity. It’s a sort of game changer, as people described it to me.”
  — Christina Lam (02:49, 12:52)

• On historical patterns:
  “America only seems to have close relations with Pakistan when there’s a military ruler. And then each time it goes wrong and then they fall out.”
  — Christina Lam (19:28)

• On the army’s power:
  “I described it as an army with a country rather than a country with an army. It controls so many things.”
  — Christina Lam (24:32)

• On repeated cycles of political repression:
  “Every time one of these political leaders has won elections, they’ve locked up their rivals.”
  — Christina Lam (26:18)

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Memorable Moments

• Christina Lam’s first reporting experiences in Pakistan and personal immersion in historic moments (03:37–04:58)
• The anecdote about Pakistan's army chief being President Trump's “favourite field marshal” (08:44–09:02)
• Reflecting on the “immunity for life” constitutional amendment for the Field Marshal (24:24)

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Useful Timestamps

• Pakistan's role in US-Iran mediation: 01:05–02:49
• Lam's historical perspective: 03:13–05:13
• Pakistani power structure explained: 05:44–08:44
• Trump and Field Marshal Munir relationship: 08:44–10:17
• Lam on Pakistan’s unique leverage: 12:52–13:33
• Cold War and double game history: 16:30–22:29
• Military economic dominance: 24:24–26:09
• Suppression and “disappearances” in Baluchistan: 26:18–29:15
• The limits of Pakistan’s mediation: 29:28–31:10

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Tone

The conversation is candid, insightful, and at times wryly humorous—reflecting both the seriousness of geopolitics and the personal flavor of long-term reporting. Christina Lam provides clear-eyed analysis infused with real-world anecdotes, balancing skepticism with empathy and historical context.

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Transcript

[Christina Lam]

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[Luke Jones]

From the Times and the Sunday Times, this is the story. I'm Luke Jones. The US Ceasefire with Iran, which Israel has reportedly begrudgingly had to go along with, is still in place for now. But as each side dances around the subject of how to extend this source of peace, one country, an unlikely country perhaps, is in the middle of it all. Mediating Pakistan. Pakistan has become a vital conduit for this messaging. Its all powerful. Military chief Field Marshal Asim Munay has worked the phones with President Trump while Prime Minister Shabbat Sharif spoke to Iran's president promising Islamabad's help and constructive role in advancing peace in the region. The same Pakistan that the US not too long ago called a terrorist safe haven who provided help to the Taliban who've been accused of sheltering Osama bin Laden.

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[Luke Jones]

They hosted the first high level talks between the US and Iran in 50 years. So how did that come about and whose side are they really on? The Sunday Times. Christina Lam is just back from Pakistan where she interviewed the Prime Minister.

[Christina Lam]

For Pakistan, this is a huge opportunity. It's a sort of game changer, as people described it to me.

[Luke Jones]

The story today how did Pakistan become the peacemakers?

[Christina Lam]

My name is Christina Lam. I'm chief for foreign correspondent for the Sunday Times. So I'm pretty busy these days.

[Luke Jones]

Christina's been reporting on Pakistan for decades. In fact, it's how she started out. At the beginning of her career. She by chance was asked if she'd like to go and interview in London Benazir Bhutto, the woman who'd go on to lead Pakistan in the late 80s and 90s.

[Christina Lam]

Of course I said yes. And the day I went to interview her. It was the day that she announced her engagement to Asif Ali Zadari. And so her flat was absolutely full of bouquets of flowers. I'd never seen so many. I was also very excited because it was my first big interview.

[Luke Jones]

It went so well. Christina was invited to the lavish wedding that was held in Karachi.

[Christina Lam]

She invited me to all the more intimate events. There would be discussions with her political colleagues about trying to topple the military dictator. I was absolutely fascinated. I had grown up in South London. The most dangerous thing I'd ever done at that point was was trying to find my way home late at night if I missed the last train. And suddenly I was meeting people who had been tear gassed, tortured, arrested because they wanted to try and bring democracy to their country. It was an amazing introduction to the country. I fell in love with it and thought, there's no way I'm going to go back and cover local news in Birmingham. So sorry, Birmingham. So I came back and gave him my notice and told everyone, I'm going to live in Pakistan. And I did.

[Luke Jones]

Fabulous. And since then you've been back many times and you've been back most recently to interview the Prime Minister Sharif. I've never been to Islamabad. I've never been to Pakistan. What is it like? And especially in the sort of bowels of officialdom and the kind of place where the PM works.

[Christina Lam]

So Islamabad is not really like the rest of Pakistan. Islamabad is one of these specially created capitals like Brasilia or Canberra. And it's quite modern, lots of big sort of white buildings and it's a very green place. It's got beautiful Margalla hills around it and it's not kind of crowded and crazy like cities like Karachi and Lahore and Pesha.

[Luke Jones]

And so you meet Prime Minister Sharif. Why this interview come about and how did you find him?

[Christina Lam]

I was in Pakistan, really, because of Trump's war in Iran. And Pakistan has become the mediator between the United States and Iran. So which is, for me, having covered Pakistan for decades is quite an unusual role to find Pakistan in which perhaps we'll go into. The other thing to be said about Pakistani politics is it's very feudal and dynastic. The same families have controlled it for years. So the people that I knew in the late 80s and 90s are still in power. When I lived there, somebody called Nawaz Sharif was the chief minister of Punjab, the biggest province in Pakistan, and he was one of the leaders of the party called Muslim League. And so Nawaz Sharif then went on to be Prime Minister three times. Now his younger brother, Shahbaz Sharif Sharif is Prime Minister. So I've actually known these people since the late 80s. And so I contacted him and asked if I could interview him because he hasn't spoken since war in Iran started.

[Luke Jones]

And I think you said in your written piece that he was gleeful.

[Christina Lam]

He was. So I went to see him and it's very kind of splendid. The Prime Minister's house. There's sort of guards outside in scarlet uniform with gold epaulets and helmets. And you're shown in and there's a lot of sort of splendor inside, a lot of kind of marble and mirrors and gold. I'm sure that President Trump would be very envious of it. So I was taken into a big room to meet him and he was sitting on a large chair, almost like a throne, really. And then three of his, well, his information minister and two of his advisors were sitting on a sofa and I was opposite. And so we started talking.

[Luke Jones]

And for anyone unaware of actually how power and politics works in Pakistan, he's the Prime Minister, but actually the military are the ones who you should maybe take more hood from.

[Christina Lam]

So the thing to understand about Pakistan is who really controls it. So the current situation in Pakistan is something that everybody refers to as the hybrid system, which is where you have officially a government where Shahbaz Sharif is Prime minister, his longtime rival, Azif Zadari is president, which is a more sort of ceremonial job and because he needed support of that party because he didn't have majority. But the real power is the military and in particular the person who's known as the field marshal, the army chief, General Azim Munir, he has fans in

[Luke Jones]

the White House, of all places.

[Christina Lam]

This field marshal he does. President Trump calls him favourite field marshal,

[Advertisement Voice]

Prime Minister Sharif of Pakistan, and also, I have to say, my favorite field Marshal from Pakistan, who's not here, but the Prime Minister is here and you're going to give his regards. Where are you?

[Luke Jones]

Powerful man in military uniform. Trump's a fan shock, but actually he'd been over to the White House, which is incredible. That's not usually the kind of thing that happens for.

[Christina Lam]

No, I mean, he's not officially the head of state or head of government, and yet Trump invited him to lunch at the White House and they had, I think, a two hour lunch. This was last year. He was the first person to nominate President Trump for a Nobel Peace Prize last year. So I think Trump likes his strongmen. He liked very much the Fact that this man had nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize. Also, Pakistan's great rival is India. They've had periodic wars. Last May, almost just over a year ago, they were at war again. And it looked really dangerous because both countries are nuclear powers. But after four days, it was ended. There are different views about how it was ended, but Pakistan believe that they won the war. They, in fact, were celebrating while I was there, the victory day. And President Trump says that he got the two countries to agree to peace. I'm not sure that the Indians agree that it was him that organized that.

[Luke Jones]

But anyway, it was one of the conflicts he solved.

[Advertisement Voice]

He says, whether people like Trump or don't like Trump. I settled eight wars, big ones, some just getting ready to start, like India and Pakistan. And I got it done in rapid order without nuclear weapons.

[Luke Jones]

But also, haven't the Trumps got fingers in sort of economic Pakistani pies?

[Christina Lam]

Yes, there are links and also there's some kind of deal to have Pakistan's critical minerals.

[Luke Jones]

So in terms of the talks, the U.S. iran talks that we saw hosted in Islamabad, as you said at the time, enormous news because, you know, they haven't had that kind of high level talks for half a century or so. We'll get into later sort of how Pakistan has come to be the point where they have those talks. But how difficult a position was that for Pakistan?

[Christina Lam]

I mean, the Prime Minister was absolutely overjoyed about it because it's given Pakistan its new role as something very important and also because Pakistan has not had the best of international reputation. So this to him totally changed that.

[Luke Jones]

How would you describe the balancing act that they are trying to maintain at the moment of looking both east and West?

[Christina Lam]

I'm not that surprised that Pakistan has ended up in this position because early on, after Trump launched his attack on Iran, I was kind of looking at different countries and their relations. And Pakistan is really one of the very few places that has good relations with both Iran and the United States. United States, there are other factors too. For example, it has a big Shia population, so perhaps the second biggest Shia population outside of Iran. And there were huge demonstrations in Pakistan when the US Invaded Iran. And people even managed to get into the US Consulate in Karachi. And then Pakistan, unlike Gulf countries, which possibly might have been in the past, mediators like Qatar, for example, they've become part of this war because they've been attacked by Iran, so that they're not kind of neutral. Also, they all have US Bases, whereas Pakistan doesn't have US Base on its soil.

[Luke Jones]

And other than the sort of brief diplomatic kudos of pulling off these high level talks. And time will tell actually how successful the ceasefire that they brokered will actually be. What is in it for Pakistan?

[Christina Lam]

Necessarily for Pakistan, this is a huge opportunity. It's a sort of game changer, as people described it to me, because this is a country which for decades was really associated with terrorism and Talibanization and using proxies to fight their battles and suddenly they feel like they're at the center of the globe. Everyone is seeing them as this sort of neutral peace broker.

[Luke Jones]

All of this is all the more incredible when you delve into the history of Pakistan. Has much actually changed? Or is it just that this White House is happy to do deals with or through whoever the storyatthetimes.com remember is our email. If you've got a question about this conflict or about anything else, me and Manveen will discuss it all next week. In the meantime, we've more from Christina next.

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[Tom Clark]

Who won? How did they play? What was wonderful, what was woeful and why? I'm Tom Clark and on the Game Football podcast we answer all of that, plus provide detailed analysis of the tactical trends on the pitch and the financial situations off it. I'm joined by former footballers as well as reporters and columnists from the Times and Sunday Times. We're here twice a week and for this summer's World cup we'll bring you daily shows with our team covering every inch of of the tournament. Find the game, wherever you get your podcasts,

[Luke Jones]

Christina, we're talking about Pakistan, obviously in the wake of these high level US Iran talks as the, as the conflict sort of continues between them. You were talking a moment ago about how this has been quite a turnaround for Pakistan because not too long ago they were associated with terrorism more than anything else in the minds at least of many Western viewers. If we rewind to the wake of 9 11, how much of a different situation was Pakistan?

[Christina Lam]

When I first lived in Pakistan, I lived in Peshawar and the Soviet Union had occupied Afghanistan and that's what I was mostly covering. I was going in and out of Afghanistan with the Mujahideen. It was the last battle of the Cold War. Pakistan's military intelligence ISI became the conduit for all Western funds and weapons to the Afghan mujahideen fighting the Soviet Union because it was a covert war. We are talking about billions and billions of pounds and weapons that were sent by the United States, by the uk, by Saudi, by France or loads of countries. So they became really one of the most powerful intelligence agencies on earth after the CIA and maybe Mossad. They had enormous resources at their fingertips and the big problem was that they weren't really a neutral player because Pakistan was a military dictatorship at that time. After the Soviet Union withdrew From Afghanistan in 1989, the west totally lost interest in Pakistan and just left literally almost overnight. In fact, I was quite shocked because I was living there and all of a sudden all these kind of spies and diplomats and various people all just like moved on to the next place. And journalists, I stayed. But there was an enormous amount of corruption because if you imagine this agency had access to all of these things. And so some of it was kind of this spring, some of it was sold to Iran, in fact, some of the Stinger missiles. It's important to know this because it puts in place why this agency is so powerful, but also this kind of mistrust of the United States because they felt that they'd been used by the United States, that at the moment they weren't useful. America lost interest and not only did the United States withdraw support, but then suddenly discovered that Pakistan had a nuclear program which it had had for a long time and so put sanctions on it. So then there was hatred of the United States and by many of the people in the military. So then 911 happened and suddenly Pakistan again is very important to the west because they neighbour Afghanistan, because Afghanistan's landlocked. The west needed to be able to take things in through Pakistan. Use Pakistan's air bases. It became crucial again. So again, billions of dollars went to Pakistan, largely to the military.

[Luke Jones]

And of course, we later found out that Zama bin Laden was in Pakistan,

[Christina Lam]

an image the White House wants the world to see, apparently a disheveled and much diminished Osama bin Laden. Tonight, President Obama said bin Laden must have had some sort of support network in Pakistan, perhaps involving people in government, which must be investigated. You had this weird situation where lots of these people who'd been behind 911 were actually in Pakistan. Even though the war was not just Afghanistan, the Taliban were toppled quite quickly. Then the fact was to go after Al Qaeda to find Osama bin Laden and the Al Qaeda leadership. Pakistan were paid a lot of money by the United States to help in that. And they did help arrest certain people, but they didn't arrest everybody. And it was kind of noticeable for those of us covering it a lot, that mostly they arrested these people when, like, the vice President United States had flown and really had a go at the Pakistan leadership. Again. When 911 happened, Pakistan was under military rule, General Musharraf, who seized power in 99. So a lot of people in Pakistan can't help but notice that America only seems to have close relations with Pakistan when there's a military ruler. And then each time it sort of goes wrong and then they fall out. So this is what happened, that eventually it was felt that Pakistan was playing what became known as a double game where they were taking money from the west to try and find these Al Qaeda leaders. But in fact, some of those Al Qaeda leaders seem to be living in Pakistan anyway. And also the other really crucial thing is that Pakistan's military intelligence was supporting the Taliban. So the west was basically paying Pakistan a lot of money, who were then helping the very people who were fighting Western forces, NATO forces in Afghanistan. It was a ridiculous situation and a mess. So there was again, relations were broken off, of course. Also, bin Laden was found in Pakistan right next to their main military training place in Abbotsburg. So there was no trust again. So they've had very bad relations the last few years. Almost no relations.

[Luke Jones]

So how do you account for the position that they found themselves in now? Is it because just Donald Trump is a lot more transactional and if you doff the cap, he'll hear you out.

[Christina Lam]

Yes, because he's taken a liking to the field Marshal. He took credit for, rightly or wrongly, for ending the war between Pakistan and India, but apparently was quite impressed by what Pakistan had done. Depending on who you believe, how many Indian fighter jets they shot down and so took a liking to the Field Marshal. And then, you know, suddenly he gets himself into this mess by attacking Iran and it not being over in a few weeks, as he said, and the regime not changing and needs somebody to try and mediate. And then here is Pakistan, which happens to be border Iran, to have good relations with Iran, but also now have good relations with the United States. So, sorry, it's a complicated. But I think it's quite important to understand that background, which is why Pakistan's leadership is so happy to be in the situation it is now, but also doesn't exactly trust America because they think the same thing may happen again.

[Luke Jones]

But it's interesting, it seems like you're suggesting that actually it's not like there's been some great change in Pakistan since those previous years, but actually it's sort of a change of perception of them.

[Christina Lam]

Yes. I mean, Shabazz Sharif, he comes from a sort of business background. He is regarded as someone who gets things done. So they have had some progress on bringing down inflation and on the improving economy, but it's still not in a good situation. Yeah. I mean, I would say maybe people regard this as a more competent government maybe than some of the ones that they've had, but there are plenty of

[Luke Jones]

other issues, and you hinted at some of the problems that persisted in Pakistan, aside from any progress that might have been made on the economic front. I mean, what would you say are the biggest concerns if you were living in Karachi now,

[Christina Lam]

The biggest issue is that the military control everything. The Field Marshal, even a constitutional amendment was passed in November under which he gets lifetime immunity so he can do anything he likes and he will retain the title of Field Marshal for life. Previously, these rulers have been army chiefs, but he's now in charge of the Air Force and the Navy as well. So defense chief. And there are a lot of rumors that other constitutional amendments might be passed that would enable him to have even more power. But. So there's that issue. The other important thing to understand about the Pakistani military. Years ago, I described it as an army with a country rather than a country with an army. It controls so many things. It has loads of economic interests. It makes cereals, it makes cement. It owns a lot of the national airline. It has a big stake in the big hotel group, the Pearl Continental Hotels. I was talking to a friend about going to at some point on holiday to the north of Pakistan, which is absolutely beautiful places like Gilgit and Hunza. And he was telling me that the tourism Organization there called Green tourism is actually run by the military. So they have their hands in so many pies, they control loads of property. If you want to get on in Pakistan, you need to have a son in the military.

[Luke Jones]

And as you say, meant to be a democracy. And still one of the other issues is the fact that Imran Khan, former Prime minister, if not the most famous man in Pakistan, still behind bars.

[Christina Lam]

Yeah, so he's been behind bars getting on for three years, more than a thousand days. He was arrested in August 2023 with charges. I mean, one of the things was even that his marriage was illegal. And he's being held in Adiale jail, which is the maximum security jail, in solitary confinement. Now this is another thing that has happened in Pakistan. Every time one of these political leaders has won elections, they've locked up their rivals. So when Imran Khan was Prime Minister in 2020-2022, he locked up his rivals. So in the words Sharif, brother of current Prime Minister Azif Zadari, who's now president, he locked them up. So everybody locks each other up, which is actually really a bad thing. I think when I talked to a leading politician in Pakistan about Imran Khan's incarceration, he was like, well, so what? We were incarcerated for much longer, which was kind of not well, you're never going to get out of this situation. So that's a problem. The media is really under a lot of restrictions. My Pakistani journalist friends all say to me that they've never known as much restrictions as there are now. I think Pakistan comes something like 100, 153rd out of 180 in the world Press Freedom Index recently. And they can't report about the opposition. They can never report anything critical about the military. And people kind of disappear if they say anything critical. And then you have an insurgency going on in the largest province geographically, Baluchistan, which borders Iran and actually has a lot of natural resources like gas and gold. And that province is the poorest province. It feels angry that it has all these resources but doesn't get any benefit. So there's a long running insurgency. People tell me that when you go there, it looks like a place under occupation. There's lots of military checkpoints, there's sort of machine gun nests on hills and lots of people disappear. So around 10,000 people have been disappeared over the last 20 years and their relations have no idea where they are. You see these women holding up pictures occasionally of protests of their missing loved ones. I interviewed one woman who, when she was 10, her father was disappeared and that was 17 years ago and they've never seen or spoken to him since.

[Luke Jones]

Grim. So with all of that in mind, then I'm sure there might be future rounds of talks in Islamabad hosted by them. I'm sure Prime Minister Sharif is saying to you that they'd like more of this to happen for them. Do you think it will? And will it have an impact?

[Christina Lam]

So really what they've been doing, I mean, we're talking about mediating and they also use that word. But other people would say that mostly they're sending messages from one side to the other at which they've sent a number. Both sides have come back and absolutely refused to accept. President Trump has used some choice words to describe some of these. But you know, there's huge differences between both sides. And so it's quite difficult to see how this is going to be resolved. The main sticking point is, apart from the straight and foremost, the most critical shipping channel is also the nuclear issue. And of course, President Trump, although he's already declared victory in this war several times, actually does need some kind of face saving deal. But also the Iranians are not just going to give in. They feel that they've actually shown that they can survive this. And so they're not just going to give in either. But on the other hand, you know, it's in no one's interest this war to carry on. But I think it would be very important for Pakistan that it does have a successful outcome in terms of peace agreement being accepted by both sides. Because if it all falls apart, then you might not want to have been saying that we were the people doing this. And then people within Pakistan also, which now all the focus is on the sort of outside and Pakistan's international role might start asking more questions about what's happening internally.

[Luke Jones]

Christina, I'm good to talk to you. Thank you.

[Christina Lam]

Thank you.

[Luke Jones]

Christina Lam, chief foreign correspondent for the Sunday Times. You will find her reporting every Sunday in print and [e-mail] if you've got a subscription. Remember, after your questions, it could be about the U.S. iran conflict, wobbly regimes or Andy Burnon or anything in between. The storyatthetimes.com is our email. That is it from us. Today's episode was produced and sound designed by Dave Creasy. Theme composition was by Mao Lasseto. The executive producer was Harry Stott. I'm Luke Jones. See you.

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[Tom Clark]

How did they play? What was wonderful, what was woeful, and why? I'm Tom Clark and on the Game, football or podcast, we answer all of that, plus provide detailed analysis of the tactical trends on the pitch and the financial situations off it. I'm joined by former footballers as well as reporters and columnists from the Times and Sunday Times. We're here twice a week and for this summer's World cup, we'll bring you daily shows with our team covering every inch of the tournament. Find the game wherever you get your podcasts.