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Then I thought, what if I've scaled businesses? What if I scaled my philanthropy?
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From the Times and the Sunday Times, this is the story. I'm Luke Jones. There is growing concern about young people with nothing to do. A new report commissioned by government says Almost a million 16 to 24 year olds are not in education, employment or training and opportunities for them are shrinking. We're cultivating a lost generation, it says. Now, on top of the many, many factors feeding into this, should we be worried that the giddy adoption of artificial intelligence tools in the workplace could mean even fewer jobs for young people going forward? The man who's been Banging on about AI induced job losses for years, the OpenAI boss, Sam Altman, recently seems to have reverse ferreted. If even the AI barons don't know what's coming, what is a young job seeker or career curious student to make of all of this? Well, in Seattle in the US One dad has built a tool to actually help his teenage daughter and others pick an AI resistant career path.
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The story is that AI is really taking the first rung of the jobs. Think about really almost how every professional career develops, including my own. Right. You know, I was a trainee initially when I joined into the workforce. The primary job at that stage would be basic analytics, reconciling spreadsheets, drafting standard documents. Now these are exactly the tasks where AI is already faster, it's cheaper, and it's accurate enough.
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Babit Bhupalan worked in tech for 25 years in companies like Microsoft, and he's written for the Sunday Times about how he advised his daughter and how it changed her career choice.
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Finance sounded like a safe answer, and that was just because that was what my friends were doing. But I think once my dad started showing me it was a lot of building models and spreadsheets, which was fine, but it wasn't exactly what I was imagining in my head.
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The story today how to prepare for the AI job Apocalypse,
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Really. It all started with one of the many dinner table conversations that we were having. Tia was 16 at that time and she approached me to ask me about what she would study once she gets into the university, because she was really thinking about a career in finance. But to be honest, I didn't have a very clear answer. I knew the answer was complicated, looking at how the technology was progressing. So I went back into the drawing board and I tried to build the answer that I wish I could have given Thea the first time she asked that question. So I sat down with 17 of the most credible reports on AI. So I looked at the World Economic Forum's Future of Jobs report. I looked at Goldman Sachs labor displacement report. I looked at McKinsey's Global Institute, Stanford Human Intelligence, even Anthropic's own economic research on labor. And then I built a framework. I scored 35 carriers across nine categories. Using the data and the insights that came up, I scored the carriers on a scale of AI resistance. So a score closer to 100% really meant that the role depends heavily on things AI cannot replicate. And the score closer to zero meant that the role is mostly things AI is already doing very well today. That actually led to a framework that is now a free career AI guide that I developed. And to my surprise, when I look at the analytics today, it's been downloaded by 30,000 households across 126 countries. And that's in a matter of almost four to six weeks since it got released.
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Before we get into actually what it found. Thea, what did you think when you had originally gone to your dad with this question about what should I do with my life and study what careers might I go into? And all of a sudden he comes back with this enormous framework based on reports from McKinsey and Google and Anthropic. And he's put this much work in. Were you, I don't know, were you a bit taken aback?
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It was kind of overwhelming at first just with thinking about all these different types of things like career opportunities and college applications coming up. At first I thought he was kind of overreacting, which is kind of scared. But I think once we kind of slowed down and he started showing me the real numbers and not just kind of like the opinionated pieces and this real data, like I started to visualize these entry level jobs in the thing that I was planning to spend three years plus in a university at that were probably disappearing. And I think that kind of hit home. And that was a strange feeling. And it wasn't that dramatic thing that I was kind of watching a door close on something before I was deciding to walk through it. Does that make sense?
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Absolutely does. Babith, why don't you walk us through what you actually learned from this framework? What did it tell you in terms of some of the jobs that actually you would recommend to somebody?
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So the research kind of really clarified that the roles most at risk are those involving high volume templated production, like routine analysis, standard document briefing or drafting, repeatable code, first pass design kind of work. Anything where the task is at heart, the same task done thousands of times with minors, variations. Right? The roles most protected really sit in four broad clusters, that kind of surface. So they are healthcare, education, skill trades, and the senior end of the law. But what unites them is really not the industry. What unites them is the proportion of the work. That depends on what I call the four human superpowers, right? Which is the emotional intelligence, creative vision, physical dexterity, and ethical judgment. And the point I really want parents to hear is that no career is finished. The actionable parts of every career, the automatable parts of every career, they will get automated. The parts requiring human judgment will become even more valuable. And the question for your child really is it's not which industry to pick, it is which version of the job within whatever industry they are targeting sits closest to those four human capabilities that I pointed out.
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C
And is there, if you took all emotion and desire on the part of the job seeker out of the equation and you just looked coldly at it, I mean, is there a single job or industry where you think this is a job that requires those human superpowers, as you termed them, and isn't necessarily easily poachable by AI automation.
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B
Starting with the philosophical answer to the question, I would say the carrier that would be most favorable to the child would be the carrier that they are most energetic and passionate about, right?
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C
Yes, good parental answer.
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B
But having said that, there are obviously some carriers, especially healthcare, for example, they really stand out in terms of human interaction, the human cognitive ability, the aspects of empathy, the aspects of care. But there is still variation in terms of what you would expect a surgeon or a GP or a consultant do versus, you know, somebody who's very early in the career, you know, somebody who's practicing or somebody who is stepping into the medical profession. Skill traits. You know, if I look at my, my data here, skill traits actually score between 82 and 94%. And this is the result that actually surprised parents most when the Sunday Times actually published the piece, right for 30 years we were told that the route to a good life was a university degree. Right. I do not want to discount that. We actually hollowed out apprenticeships. We told a generation of bright young people that working with their hands was sort of beneath them. I think that was the wrong map that we handed over. So definitely electricians, plumbers, H Vac engineers, carpenters, marine engineers. These are actually six figure careers in many parts of the world right now and with full order books.
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C
Anyone who's had a plumber around recently will know that they do earn a lot. But isn't part of the problem that sort of the entry level of a lot of what we usually call white collar jobs are susceptible bits? No one's suggesting that AI is going to automate the role of a high court judge, but they might. Somebody who is a very junior lawyer on the first rung of the ladder at a law firm.
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B
Absolutely. I think the simplistic way to grok it and absorb it is looking at the carrier, especially at the entry point, in terms of things that are repeatable in nature. As I said, things that could be easily replicated by another human, that could easily be templatized and could be easily replicated by AI as well. So that is one of the aspects that I'm also stressing apart from looking at repeatable tasks, is to also prepare to ensure that as you step as a young professional into the workforce, your portfolio shows a clear depiction of those four human capabilities. Right. Things that you have already done before stepping into that door into your university degree. So somebody who's targeting law, for example, they should actually be doing mock trials. Somebody who's targeting international relations, join UN and actually do some field work and then take that as a proof point going into the university to say how you've been on the field, how you've been on the ground and had that human ability and touch to be able to accomplish the objective and the task that you're set out for?
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Coming up, what did fear actually make of her father's research? And what effect, if any, did it have on her future career choice? That's at a moment.
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From globalization to innovation sustainability to market volatility, there's always more than one side to a story. Explore different perspectives on today's most important business and economic issues with the Flipside podcast from Barclays Investment Bank. Hear two research analysts in a lively debate and get insights from every angle to further inform your view. Listen to the Flipside on your favorite platform. Then I thought, what if I've scaled Businesses. What if I scaled my philanthropy?
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What if I did as much in
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one year as I've done in my whole life? See how your wealth could have even greater meaning@creativeplanning.com impact.
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We're discussing what artificial intelligence might mean for job seekers. Baby, you were just explaining this framework that you devised for your daughter to kind of help her understand what kind of industries, what kind of roles might be affected by the onward, relentless march of AI. Thea, before you raised this with your dad, looked at this framework, what kind of areas were you? Well, actually, were you even worried about this issue? Were you thinking, I need to think about what the future holds in terms of artificial intelligence before I pin my colours to a particular mask?
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It was not very centered in my head, just like AI as a whole in thinking about a career outcome, but I was very centered into going into a finance pathway. And that was, I think, particularly because just the area I grew up in was very like STEM focused. And so a lot of people around me were doing STEM related or finance related careers. And I think especially at my age, at 14 years old, when you're kind of thinking about what career you want to go to, it's very much like what are my interests, what extracurriculars I do, right. And what classes am I getting good grades in and stuff like that. But I think I started more to think about AI as a possible factor into my career outcomes, especially when I talk more with my dad about it. I kind of looked at AI less as just a tool that I used to help me create quizzes for my homework and more as something that I could use as a resource. And I think that is kind of what shifted my understanding and helped me use AI as a tool in helping what career pathway could possibly work for me.
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It's so much to put on young shoulders, I guess, to be thinking and worrying about all of this, you know, in your teens. But did then going through that framework with your dad, did that change what career you thought you might actually try and pursue?
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Oh, yes, for sure. I think like my dad talked about, we did have a lot of dinner table conversations, right? And especially like as a young person going through a college application process, it was very much finding out what path worked for me along with the idea to whether it is sustainable to AI. And like I talked about before, I was very pivoted towards doing finance. I got into a lot of extracurriculars, I took a lot of business related classes. But I think it was understanding that framework kind of helped me realize that finance sounded like a safe answer, and that was just because that was what my friends were doing. But I think what I actually liked was the idea of being good with numbers and being in a room where decisions were made and I didn't really know what to do. A financial analyst did all day. I just kind of thought that that was the cool answer. But I think once my dad started showing me, it was a lot of building models and spreadsheets, which was fine, but it wasn't exactly what I was imagining in my head. And I think once I was able to put those building blocks together and have that framework, we were as a family able to create more of a pathway into going into international relations. Because I liked that human aspect and having real conversations and like, remember kind of analyzing diplomacy as a potential, like, career option. And I was like, diplomacy can't be outsourced by robots, dad. And I just having those real conversations really did help me create that pathway that I think made most sense for me.
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And does that make sense in this context? Is international diplomacy actually quite AI proof? Or, you know, maybe we could imagine a world in which ChatGPT is resolving the Iran conflict quicker than Marco Rubio and the Iranians.
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You know, the reason why I scored the AI resistance for the different carriers is to give a depiction of where those carriers stand with respect to impact based on what we know today. And that's the reason why I wanted to give a framework on which to base your decision making as a household, which is basically the four human superpower skills. And once you lay those four human superpower skills that are required for a work like diplomacy, where there isn't previous historical reference to the kind of conversation that you're stepping into, if you look at the example of what is happening today with Iran or even in Ukraine, there isn't a lot of user manuals on how to have those conversations, for lack of better terminology, right? So those kind of things will take a lot of time for AI to really penetrate. Now, I'm not saying that it's never going to happen. God forbid if you have multiple similar incidents where decision making has been done and led to a positive outcome, machine is going to learn that, right? And we can very well get similar kind of information from AI. But having said that, for international diplomacy, there are lot of moving pieces. It requires a lot of human ingenuity in those conversations. It requires a lot of understanding of each other's positions to be able to put that hand out for collaboration. A lot of that does not have a precursor in history. And that would necessarily shield it from AI, where it comes to conversation and dialogue and decision making, especially on things that have not been replicated in the past. I think that is still an opportunity for humans to be bringing their unique capabilities in the forefront.
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C
So it sounds like international relations is a good choice in terms of an AI resistant career. But it's sort of lucky that Theo that is an area and a career path which he seems interested in. I mean, what do you say to the person who doesn't necessarily want to think about how AI resistant their interest is? Maybe they're somebody who has a very analytical mind and what they want to do is a job which is looking for patterns in data. That all seems so eminently aiable, if that's the right phrase. Would you warn them off that and say, no, you need to think a bit more coldly about it. You can't be so emotionally attached to what you might want to do with your life.
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You know, I would start by saying, first of all, and let me make this as bold and italics as possible, I want households not to fear AI. In fact, I'm asking households to embrace AI. So in terms of carriers that households are looking forward or children are looking forward, I would say two things. First of all, focus on the preparedness. So become fluent in AI and develop the parts of yourself that AI cannot really copy. Right. So if you look at the data workers with genuine AI fluency, they earn 56% more than those without it in every field. That is, according to PricewaterhouseCoopers, that wage premium has actually doubled in just 12 months. Now, that is not a niche skill. I would say that is the new literacy, But I would actually start a few steps back. So if your child is 10 to 12, I would recommend that you build the foundations, teach them to be curious, because curiosity is really the hardest quality to automate. Right. And if your children is in the age group as what TIA was when we started this conversation, 16 to 18, and ready to make those real choices, look hard at where those four human superpowers are kind of converging in the carriers that they're considering. Right. I think the conversation is the most important aspect that a parent can have with a teenager this decade.
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Yeah. Thea, you're 17 now. Are you telling me there are other 17 year olds who are having this kind of conversation at home, or do you feel like a lucky but outlier?
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I feel like it's kind of mixed in between. My friends, some of my friends do have these types of conversations at home. And are considering career pathways that are AI sustainable. But I think some people are just very focused on the things that they're passionate about. And that's not saying that even if you're passionate about something, you shouldn't consider if it is AI safe. But I think it's really just the scope of how much you understand AI and its influence. But I think especially my dad, he was very focused on making sure this was something that I did consider. And I'm very grateful for that.
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So there are two sides of this coin. One of the reasons why this conversation is not very prevalent in households, at least in the area that we are in, is because those same kids are seeing their parents in the carriers that are now not too resistant for AI being very successful. They don't really want to question what their parents are doing and the choices that they want to make in line with what their parents have done. The second thing is really the flip side of it. The parents who have been really successful are having doubts about why their child should not be going in the same path because they have found great success working in finance. They have found great success being in the IT sector. When I speak with them and I help them understand that it's not about the entire carrier again, it's the aspects about the carrier which are automatable. It is the bottom rung of the ladder. Then the conversation immediately shifts from, hey, we will see when we reach that bridge when AI really impacts. To have this conversation, no, we need to start having the preparedness right now and start having those conversations and the mindset shift right now.
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C
But also so much of this is shifting so quickly. So do you have to keep updating your analysis? Because even if we just look at what the var, various AI company bosses have been saying about the impact of this on the jobs market. I mean, Sam Altman, to take one example, the founder and boss of OpenAI in 2023, he was saying jobs are definitely going to go away. Last year, speaking to a meeting with the Federal Reserve, he said that roles like customer support jobs would be totally, totally gone as AI improved. And then only in May this year actually seems like he's rode back. He said he was, quote, pretty wrong about AI's economic impact. And there are other examples of that from other tech bosses as well. Have they been over egging impact and are walking it back and do we need to do likewise?
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Do we need to update the research? Absolutely. And there are, you know, significant capabilities that I'm trying to add. I realize that there is a Need for very region specific research because career definitions, how you get into those carriers, the pathway to get there could be very different depending upon which region you are in. Right. The second question is about how the narrative and the messaging is shifting in the industry. So one thing I would say is from my experience, and again, being inside some of these big conglomerates and seeing it at a very close proximity is I would advise households to take the messaging that you're getting from private organizations with a grain of salt. I mean, there are a lot of motivations and nuances behind those messaging. What I would really urge them is to spend this time having those conversations and driving towards preparedness. For AI preparedness, you need to be hustling a little bit more than the traditional path that our predecessors have taken to let a technology evolve for seven to eight years. We don't have that much Runway because
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C
there is a counter argument to all of this that it will actually sort itself around all of these jobs and industries. Our colleague Maheen Khan, who's the economics editor at the Times, wrote a piece recently about the Jevons paradox from the 19th century where he pointed out that, that even though we had the invention of the steam engine and people were expecting use of coal to lessen off, because actually all of a sudden the energy production that you get from it would be a lot more efficient, actually use of coal shot up. So just as in this future, we'll have lots of AI tools in the workplace, that doesn't necessarily mean fewer jobs or even fewer entry level jobs. It just means everyone's working capability is supercharged and that can stoke demand. So in that world, do we even need to be thinking about, well, do I go into this industry or that industry? Because even if you go into an industry which according to your framework, might be very easily automated by AI, there might be aspects of that industry where there is a need for a human and just the tools that automate a lot of that work just make your role as the human even more important.
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In that, here is what I would say that every doom headline is missing today. The World Economy Forum actually projected that 170 million jobs would be created globally by 2030, alongside the ones that are getting displaced. So the net picture is not really collapse. The right way to understand this, really transformation, right? And transformations, as I mentioned in the article as well, always reward the families that are coming prepared, right, to understand them early. So if you understand which nuances of that careers will cause the most dramatic shifts and the characteristics and the attributes that will Prevent that shift from happening. If you choose that carrier, that will definitely extend the Runway for those households and the careers of the children.
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C
Finally, just the both of you, did you expect the reaction to all of this when you embarked on it? When you were having these conversations, Thea, did you think, I mean, the amount of comments on the Times website, the views, the people talking about this. I've seen this article pop up on my Instagram feed 50 million times. Baby, you must be inundated with emails by anxious parents now. Have you become the sort of guru for people? I'm just thinking, tell us, baby, what do we need to do?
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B
It has gone beyond my wildest imaginations, to be honest. It was just one conversation of a father with a daughter that I just felt that other households would need to also listen. But I've got responses from places I never expected. I mean, I've got emails from families in Pakistan, in Nigeria, in Brazil, in Vietnam, you know, parents in tiny villages in Ireland that I can't even pronounce the names correctly. And from, you know, really senior partners at city law firms, professionals, educationists. The thing that really connects them, I feel is the same. Right. A child really has come, come to them with a question about their future and they realize that they do not have an honest answer.
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C
Fiat. How are things going with you? How's your college application going?
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Good? It's going very well. I'm committed to the American University in Washington, D.C. for International Studies. So I'll be there in the fall.
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Fabulous. We'll have a wonderful time and thank you both for making time for us. I really appreciate it. It's been a pleasure.
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Thank you so much.
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B
Thank you for this opportunity.
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C
That was Babbitt Bhupalan and his daughter Thea. You can read Babbitt's original article and actually a follow up as well. He wrote for the Sunday Times. Over@thetimes.com if you've got a subscription, we've put a link in the show notes of this episode. And if you've been thinking about what AI might mean for your career, for your children's career, for your grandchildren's career, maybe you're a young person stuck in this conundrum at the moment. Let us know. The storyatthetimes.com is our email address. That is it from us today. The producer was Colette Fountain. The executive producer was Edward Drummond. And sound design and and theme composition was by Mao Losato. I'm Luke Jones. See you soon,
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Sam.