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- [00:01]
PwC Announcer
At PwC, we don't just deliver ideas, we make them work with the expertise and tech you need to outthink and outperform. And we work with you, alongside you from start to finish so you can stay ahead, so you can protect what you built, so you can create new value. We build for what's next so you can get there now. PwC so you can. PwC refers to the PwC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity.
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Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better manage your health. We're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler health care is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit optum.com to learn more.
- [01:05]
Luke Jones
From the Times and the Sunday Times. This is the story. I'm Luke Jones. Will Keir Starmer remain as Prime Minister having said at the weekend he wanted to be in power for 10 years? Yesterday, at points it was looking touch and go as to whether he'd make another 10 minutes. There are people very near the top of this government who do not know whether the Prime Minister is going to see out the an increasing number of Labour MPs are saying they don't want him to remain as Prime Minister. Some ministers want him to leave too. But among those trying to save Starmer, including the Prime Minister himself, there is a regular refrain, don't open the door to reform. We are not just facing dangerous times, but dangerous opponents, very dangerous opponents. This hurts not just because Labour has done badly, but because if we don't get this right, our country will go down a very dark path. That dark path being Nigel Farage and his latest increasingly popular populist right party. We're seeing some truly historic shifts in voting patterns at last week's elections. They did very, very well. Things, frankly, I could never have dreamt that we'd seen. Which is leading some commentators to ask, is Nigel Farage on track to be our next Prime Minister? Unless Keir Starmer goes shortly and is replaced by somebody else. In which case, is Nigel Farage on track to be the next Prime Minister?
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Lara Spirit
After that, the stakes are incredibly high. If we don't improve and we don't start doing better, we're going to see Nigel Farage walking up Downing street in two or three years time. And that for me is Something I cannot even begin to think about letting happen.
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Luke Jones
The story today why Farage has had his most successful election yet.
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Lara Spirit
How did Reform do in these elections? I mean, exceptionally well, really, really brilliantly by any real standards.
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Luke Jones
Lara Spirit is deputy political editor of the Sunday Times.
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Lara Spirit
They were by far the biggest party and the biggest winner in these elections, picking up more than 1,400 seats. The only party, really, apart from perh, the Greens. So he can claim a kind of unambiguously positive night from these results
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Luke Jones
and take us through what actually happened just in England and Wales and in Scotland in terms of reform.
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Lara Spirit
So in England they topped it. They won 1454 seats. In Scotland they came third after the s and P and Labour, and in Wales they came second. And in Wales, this was a really staggeringly good result for them. They will be feeling very good about this because Labour has obviously been in charge of Wales since devolution, has been dominant there for much longer than that. And to come in second and narrowly ish behind applied is really fantastic for reform.
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Luke Jones
And with that in mind, can we look at all those results and say the gains in Reform are majority Labour voters drifting away or is it unclear?
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Lara Spirit
This is obviously one of the very big questions, particularly from Labour's point of view at the moment, because lots of people are having a big debate about whether or not, as a result of this, the Labour Party should tack to the left because of votes they're losing to Green or tack to the right because Reform is still taking more seats from them. In parliamentary terms, when you look at what the results would be like than, you know, progressive parties. But there's been a lot of analysis on that. It does suggest that actually, you know, even if a seat is going to reform, the fact that the Green Party are doing well is actually taking more of the Labour vote in that and is perhaps slightly more decisive in many places. But we do know that in places like Essex and Suffolk, where Reform won councils outright, they were taking those from the Tories. They also did fantastically well in Norfolk. So that whole area, they were doing brilliantly well. We know that they were taking results from Conservatives in some of those outer borough seats in London that the Conservatives traditionally done well on. They did fall short in Bexley. And, you know, when I spoke to Nigel Farage last week, he was very candid about that. He just said we weren't good enough there. We were immature. The ground game wasn't. Wasn't good enough. And so that was very interesting. They are also taking results from labor, though, particularly in places in that so called red wall in the north. So Sunderland was the big totemic victory in the north for reform. Very, very traditional labor area and us kind of long standing Labour Council, which is being seen as evidence in this election for the Reform Party that they're doing well against the Conservatives and they're doing well, of course, against the Labour Party.
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Luke Jones
And to be clear, for people who try and trot out this line, this isn't anything like what we saw with Ukip or the Brexit party. This is obviously a new Farage outfit, but it's of a sort of completely different order of magnitude.
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Lara Spirit
I think that's completely true. This is not a flash in the pan at this point. This is very much a party that is able to stand and win candidates in huge parts of the country and in huge numbers. I mean, they've outright won these elections. But they are also now at the crucial tipping point, Luke, where first past the post, our majoritarian election system is helping and not hindering them in a lot of these seats. Whereas, you know, previously smaller parties that, you know, Farage has, has triumphed, have been horribly treated, in his view, by what is this majoritarian winner takes it all election system. And now actually what you have in this very fragmented electoral landscape is multiple parties genuinely being able to claim huge wins as a result of very tiny leads and seats. And Farage is now a fantastic point from his perspective where he is able to claim a lot of those, a lot of victories.
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Luke Jones
Has his opinion shifted on first past the post all of a sudden?
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Lara Spirit
I mean, that is going to be a fantastic question to watch, isn't it, whether or not he's turned his back on electoral reform.
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Luke Jones
What do you think has been behind this enormous surge, not just in England, but as you mentioned, also in places like Wales and in Scotland as well. Scotland, where reform have not been a political force at all previously. Is it to do with dissatisfaction with politics? Is it to do with Farage the man? What is it?
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Lara Spirit
I mean, I think that is a big part of it. It's clearly a huge frustration with the current status quo, a huge for change and a huge dissatisfaction with just politics and politicians, generally speaking. And Farage has presented himself extremely successfully as somebody who would want to counter this system from the outside, who would introduce radical change, be it on immigration, something a number of his voters care very strongly about, but also on a whole load of economic issues that perhaps previous outfits of his might not have spoken to so much. So we saw, for example, with steel nationalization that was a big moment for Farage and the Reform Party.
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Luke Jones
This is quite extraordinary. I thought reform was the party of free markets. I didn't think reform would resort to economic nationalism and protectionism in order to prop up an industry that's losing 700,000 quid a day. How is that going to be taken onto the government books? Because we're the party of common sense, we're the party of business people who understand industries of strategic, national importance. I've stood up on a number of occasions in the House of Commons.
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Lara Spirit
Certainly at this point, they are making a big case economically, but also on social issues, that is speaking to a lot of people and that people are very, you know, a lot of voters are very pleased to hear.
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Luke Jones
But it's amazing that it's sort of dissatisfaction with maybe, like, John Sweeney as your first minister in Scotland, but also with the Labour administration in Wales. And also, if you're angry at what Keir Starmer's doing across the uk, the answer leads back to so many voters, to Farage.
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Lara Spirit
Mm. I mean, one of the interesting dynamics of this set of election results for Reform was the huge correlation with the Brexit vote in 2016. So Nigel Farage did stunningly well in areas where these places voted in large numbers for Brexit.
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Luke Jones
Our colleague Fraser Nelson sort of plotted
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Lara Spirit
them on our graph.
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Luke Jones
He did, and it was almost just. It was almost a perfect correlation.
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Lara Spirit
It was, yes. And there's a debate, of course, about whether or not this is a correlation with your views on Brexit per se, or the views you have on politics more broadly that led you, in that particular instance, to vote for Brexit. Right. But I guess that's not necessarily hugely meaningful in circumstances where we're just trying to say, where did Farage do? And look, he did very well in these places. And I said to him just before his victory party, when I went to see him in Chelmsford in Essex at the racecourse on Friday, I said, you know, were you surprised by this? And he was clearly not surprised at all. He was like, you know, basically, I'm paraphrasing, but I've been saying this for ages, like, who knew? And it's an interesting dynamic. And the reason I partly mention it is dependent on what happens with Starmer. We know that this labor iteration wants to move closer to Europe and we know that this is becoming a more salient issue in British politics. And Farage said to me the previous week when I interviewed him in West Sussex that actually, he's not scared of this debate. And previously, when people have had this, people have felt very kind of gung ho before a debate about Europe. It's always ended badly for them and it's always ended well for him. And that's the precedent. And they're going to fight everything tooth and nail on this and I think are feeling emboldened on Brexit at the moment.
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Luke Jones
But it's interesting. It's not necessarily like there is a kind of policy platform which neatly exactly aligns with the Euroscepticism which he was pushing in advance of the referendum. It's to do with that almost like mid-70s vibe of things just aren't working. And whatever political stripe you are, Farage is offering some kind of novel solution in the same way as Zach Polanski's, I guess, as well.
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Lara Spirit
And I think, I mean, crucially, we should also mention the Conservatives who had a very difficult night, a really difficult night, particularly in those areas, as I said, in Essex, where Kemi Badenot, the leader, has her very own parliamentary constituency. And people in reform bullish about the fact that that would mean that she'd be in some sort of electoral peril in a general election. Of course, it's too soon to say that, but certainly these were really disastrous results for the party in that part of the country, as they were to the Liberal Democrats in parts of the Home Counties, particularly in Surrey. And so I think the fact that the Conservatives have been seen, even with Cami Bain not being seen as a more popular leader now than she was, and we should say she has personally improved her own ratings, the Conservative Party is in a really difficult position at the moment. And so when you look at, if you're a right leaning voter, generally speaking, at the moment, and you don't want the Labour Party, the Lib Dems or the Greens to do particularly well, reform might well be the party that you might go to in these, in the, in these circumstances. I mean, it's fragmenting so much that it's even hard to say that at this point, but that it's worth noting that in terms of on the right, the Conservatives are still something of a denuded force.
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Luke Jones
Yes. And it's not necessarily like all of this would happen if you subbed Farage out for Richard Tice or Zia Youssef. There's something about him and his celebrity and his brand which is particularly attracting voters. Did you notice that when you've been out and about with him, people just want selfies with him? It's like Boris Johnson or when people talk about Jeremy Clarkson running for office.
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Lara Spirit
It was genuinely staggering to me, I have to say. This election campaign was the first time that I've met Nigel Farage, that I've been up and close with him campaigning. I interviewed him twice. The first time I interviewed him, we were in West Sussex, in some of the coastal towns, traditionally leave voting towns in Little Hampton and Bognor Regis. Loved it. Where I'm actually from, West Sussex, it's my home county. And we were driving around in a open top bus, campaign bus. I mean, he would go past and people would be running out of the shops to try and take a photo of him. They would be screaming at him, they would be cheering him. There'd be the very odd heckler. But generally speaking, he was overwhelmingly popular. And then I remember we rocked up in Littlehampton, which is one of these, you know, one of these coastal towns, and the streets were pretty dead. And I remember thinking, is this a bit of a mishap that they've done? They've taken, like me, a journalist, and Farage to this place and there's going to be no one here and we're going to walk through and it's all going to be a bit of a damp squib for him. This is slightly. Could this be slightly embarrassing? And actually people literally just within about 30 seconds, there was like a crowd around him. It was incredible. People were coming out of the shops to want selfie. They were FaceTiming their dads and being like, my dad loves you. I mean, it was so staggering, his level of personal popularity. And I mean, he was, was very careful when he spoke to these people to make sure that they were voting, because obviously one of the suspicions that they will have is he is a celebrity. And when people. Doesn't mean you agree with him, it doesn't necessarily. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be absolutely motivated to go and vote for him. Right? You've seen someone that you recognize that you rate, that, you know, has entertained you in the past and that you have a positive view on. But what he's doing in these places is also trying to make sure that they actually do come out and vote for him. And, you know, in these elections, they really did.
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Luke Jones
All of this campaign hasn't been without a scandal. Of course, first of all, around Farage himself, we've had those previous allegations of anti Semitism when he was a teenager at school, which he has vehemently denied, but also something that you've been writing a bit about. What are we calling it now? This Donation.
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Lara Spirit
It's definitely a gift.
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Luke Jones
A gift, I beg your pardon, of £5 million from this British, now residing in Thailand, Businessman.
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Lara Spirit
Yes. Christopher Harborne. Yeah. Who is a Thai based British billionaire who gave Nigel Farage £5 million in advance of the 2024 election. And this was revealed by the Guardian, I think, just the day before. I spent time with him in West Sussex, perhaps two days before. And their line, Nigel Farage's line on it, is that this was an unconditional gift. It did not need to be declared because it was not a political gift. It was given to him by Christopher Harborne to guarantee his personal safety for the rest of his life. And opposition parties, you know, the Conservatives, for example, have referred him to this Parliamentary Standards Commissioner. There are other questions about whether the Electoral Commission might. Look, this reform is saying everything has been declared in the usual way, but this has been an issue that has hung over the campaign somewhat and they say this is a Westminster bubble issue. This is very much not something that has come out at the doorstep and that if you look at these results, they should show you that it's not something that voters at this point are particularly concerned about.
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Luke Jones
Labour certainly seem to think that this is an area which they should press on. Keir Starmoney the other day when he was talking to the press in his big sort of save me as Prime Minister speech, was referring to Nigel Farage as a grifter, because he's not just a grifter, he is a chancer. The idea of him being a grifter is something that they're trying to push and link to this.
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Lara Spirit
I think all of the opposition parties at this point are pushing very hard on, on this point. And that's why I think it probably isn't going to go away despite this big success that they've had in these elections. It's absolutely enormous amount of money. It is an enormous amount of money from somebody who's given an even bigger amount of money to the party as well. And it is going to be a massive feature, I think, of political conversations
- [15:24]
Luke Jones
in the weeks and months to come downstream of Farage. There's also been other scandals. Several councillors have already been suspended because of things that have come out about their, well, past social media postings.
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Lara Spirit
Yeah. So there were comments that were reportedly made by one of the council candidates that Nigerians should be used to fill in the potholes. And that has been a massive, massive story in recent weeks, particularly because Richard Tice, of course, very senior Reform Party member and the deputy leader of the party who declined to very explicitly condemn this when pressed on this after the
- [15:54]
PwC Announcer
election, one of your new Sunderland councillors. So a man who was elected to represent Reform suggested melting Nigerians to fill potholes. Is that person who's expressed those views somebody you are happy to see represented?
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Luke Jones
This weekend we are celebrating our incredible successes. Like any party, you have internal party processes to look at where people have said or done the wrong thing.
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PwC Announcer
Do you condemn those remarks, Laura?
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Luke Jones
I condemn anything that is wrong and inappropriate. And those candidates have denied making the comments or holding racist views.
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Lara Spirit
And this was an issue, of course, that Reform had during the general election as well. You'll remember there were plenty of candidates that they had to suspend at the time. There was a big row over the vetting procedures. From Reform's point of view, they felt that the company they'd used to do the vetting was simply not up to the job. That they've tried to take tighter action on this instant. But they still had, as you say, a number of examples in this campaign of people saying egregiously unexpected, acceptable things and having exhibited egregiously unacceptable behavior in the past that they had to take action on. They were, I mean, they weren't the only party that this happened to in the election. We should also say, you know, the Green Party had a huge problem with candidates having said anti Semitic remarks during this election campaign. And indeed, I think actually if you look at what the main story in this campaign was in terms of candidates and vetting, it probably was the Green Party, it was not the Reform Party.
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Luke Jones
Right.
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Lara Spirit
Because I think they did struggle more than Reform struggled on this instance. And that in some ways, I guess, has sort of helped the Reform Party to avoid some of the big kind of reputational problems that they had in the general election. Despite this clearly still being a lingering
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PwC Announcer
issue
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Luke Jones
on the scandals affecting some of their candidates, the Green Party has condemned anti Semitism amongst its members. The party leader Zach Polanski has said, quote, as a Jewish person, those comments disgust me. It is important that we let the disciplinary process take its place. Scandals aside, Reform is enjoying quite the victory lap, stoking talk of a Reform government. Even though the next election is likely three years away, what would actually happen under Prime Minister Farage? We'll have more from Lara on that in a moment.
- [18:19]
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- [18:49]
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- [19:18]
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- [20:44]
Luke Jones
Lara we're talking about reform and the possibility that lots of people are talking about at the moment that maybe Nigel Farage could be our next prime minister. As in when the next general election comes along, maybe sooner than we think, who knows in terms of where they have already been in control around the country. How have they fared? English councils?
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Lara Spirit
Yeah, that's a very good question. I mean there's been a lot of attention because of the so called UK doge, the import from America that we've seen with the Elon Musk born Department of Government Efficiency which is instigated in the US to make sweeping cuts to federal budgets and root out waste where they find it. And in the US they have struggled and I think it's fair to say that in some of these councils they have struggled as well. There's been analysis showing that, you know, a number of these places have put up a lot of council tax, for example, that so far they. We haven't made a great deal of progress on these points. Now, reform will say it's still very early days and crucially, they're still getting a lot of experience in this position. But a number of people are using that to ask, you know, would a reform government in Westminster be all that different to what we're seeing before? Would it actually be as kind of revolutionary and radical as perhaps we've been promised?
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Luke Jones
Because what has their pitch been, especially when they've been pitching for control of more English councils? Just that we'll sort out waste. What?
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Lara Spirit
Well, I mean, crucially, the election slogan was that you vote reform and you get a starmer out. So, I mean, it was, as a set of elections this year, they were very nationally focused, if you think about it. Right. Like, I mean, not just for the reform slogan, but also, if you look at the Green Party, it was very internationally focused. I mean, the Green Party was, you know, Gaza and Palestine was a big part of their campaign pitch. That has not been collections. Right. That's not actually the things that traditionally you think people would vote in local elections for. So I think as these elections go, they were more kind of national, but certainly reform still making a lot about those kind of efficiency initiatives that they want to see, rooting out waste, ending deeds initiatives, diversity and equity and inclusion initiatives, and basically trying to make sure that that can be a sort of blueprint for what they might do in Westminster.
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Luke Jones
And, as ZIUSA said, moving migrant processing centres to places that voted Green.
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Lara Spirit
This was a very big announcement that the party made in recent days, which some are saying was a kind of gambit or a stunt, others are saying is a serious proposition, which is this idea that, as you say, migrant processing centres should be basically confined to places that voted for the Green poll.
- [23:04]
Luke Jones
What about their national pitch? Is it clear? I mean, obviously quite far out from general election, what their broad policy offer is. Obviously, immigration will figure quite highly, but that and beyond it. Is it clear?
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Lara Spirit
Yeah, I think. I mean, nobody would pretend that immigration isn't at the absolute centre of this party's proposals for governments. You know, we're talking mass deportations, massive action on small boats, you know, pulling out of the echr, which is the European Convention on Human Rights. All of these policies that reform have held. I mean, some of those, they've held for a long time, some of these are becoming increasingly emboldened, but immigration is Obviously, at the heart of this. I think depending on where this Europe debate goes, that will probably be at the heart of this as well. They do feel very, very confident on this issue, too. Net zero, obviously resolutely opposed to. They want to end subsidies for renewable energy, for example, along with a host of other measures on this policy area that they feel very strongly about. And then other ones I've mentioned around DEI initiatives, they want to make big cuts to the civil service, so they do want to a lot of impact on central government as well. They want big political appointments to senior roles. So they have set out a lot of these big questions. Of course, I think one of the most interesting things to watch will be their economic offer going into the election. What exactly are they proposing to do with the economy, depending on the state the economy is in. I mean, at the moment, you and I are talking at a time of increasing political instability, that's having an impact on borrowing costs.
- [24:30]
Luke Jones
You could have said that at any point in the last few weeks.
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Lara Spirit
Sorry, it is. That's why I felt it was actually an appropriate thing to say.
- [24:36]
Luke Jones
What about health in terms of reform? Do they talk much about the NHS or social care?
- [24:40]
Lara Spirit
Well, this is a classic long running sore for the party because people are constantly leveling against Nigel Farage accusations that he wants to privatize the nhs, which is something that he, of course, very strongly denies. When I was in Worthing with him, when I just arrived in Worthing, there was a heckler who was screaming at him about privatizing the nhs. It's clearly something that those who oppose him feel very, very strongly about. But I think that's a very interesting question because we will probably have to wait to see the final final about what their proposals for the health service actually are.
- [25:14]
Luke Jones
What about who would actually be populating this government? Because lots of the argument that's been swirling around Keir Starmer necessarily hasn't been a sort of an ideological anger with him, but more just about competence. Obviously, Nigel Farage would be Prime Minister in a possible reform government, but the people around him, do they have much experience? I mean, obviously lots of them have government experience being former Tories, so.
- [25:35]
Lara Spirit
Exactly, I think, fair to say. Robert Jenrick, Suella Braverman, these former Tory ministers obviously do have experience in government, but Reform want to run a very different government to the Conservative predecessor outlets that they have criticized so strongly. And that's, I think, one of the reasons why I'm not sure that that experience will be seen as massively instructive to the Party elites or Farage, because they will want to do things very, very differently. They'll want to go further, particularly on immigration, which was, you know, cited as the reason why Robert Genrick resigned and went to the Reform Party. So they do have a lot of experience. The kind of, you know, Richard Tice and Nigel Farage obviously aren't people that have Westminster government experience, but I think at this point, they see that as more of a strength than a weakness, often citing in public the fact that those who do have this experience have not necessarily, in their view, run the country all that well as a result of it.
- [26:33]
Luke Jones
Thinking about who we might be facing, just finally, do you think it will make much of a difference to the Labour reform tussle? We're likely to see if it's Farage, Rayner, Farage Streeting, Farage, Burnham.
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Lara Spirit
Well, let's see. I mean, at this point, what can we say about this? We can say that in the polls, Andy Burnham is the only one of those names, including Keir Starmer, for whom voters think the country would be better off than worse off. So in that sense, if you were Nigel Fraj, you might say you'd be a bit more worried about Andy Burnham. The flip side of this, of course, and we've already heard this from Robert Jenrick before we've even had a leadership. A proper. A proper leadership kind of challenge or an ousting of Starmer or whatever it may end up being, is this idea that if Starmer goes, there will be no electoral mandate for his successor and there should be a general election. And I think that is something that, you know, Labour activists who are Lord Kirstama are trying to push in a very big way. They're saying this is something that we have to be really wary of, which is if we have a different leader, they have not won a landslide election in the way that Keir Starmer has. What is their mandate? To rule and should they go and seek that from the electorate? And I think reform would relish that. So, I mean, I think that it's much for muchness in some respects, when Andy Bynum does well in polling. What other people will say is, well, I mean, it's very hard to know. And also, famously, as soon as you enter Downing street, you just do become a lot less popular, according to the laws of recent decades in British politics. So it's really hard to say. And actually, I mean, one of the things for reform that I would be thinking if I were them, but this is not on the basis of conversations I've had with them is you would probably want a leader if you reform, you probably want a new Labour leader to not be tainted with the brush of the kind of economic difficulty that's going to come, I. E. You would probably want them to come in relatively soon, before the general election, because whoever comes in now is going to have an absolute mess to clean up. I mean, not just the spike in borrowing costs that we've seen as a result of this, but much more significantly the war in Iran and the impact that that is having on the public finances and the restrictions that's having on the Chancellor to be able to do anything big and bold. And, you know, we've seen a bit of an indication from allies of Andy Burnham about the kind of borrowing that he might want to do to fund defence. But really the kind of headline picture is going to be difficult, difficult, difficult, difficult decisions. But I'm just thinking reform doesn't have to make those before it's in government.
- [28:44]
Luke Jones
But with my sort of light entertainment hat on, I'm just thinking about in terms of casting the future general election leadership debates, can you imagine? I don't know, you can imagine maybe Streeting and Rainer putting on a sort of more sort of feisty battle against Farage than Starmer, than Starmer or Burnham?
- [29:02]
Lara Spirit
Well, I think, I mean, I will say that when I said to Farage, I asked him about this point, do you not think, given that Starmer is historically unbelievably unpopular, that having a new leader would be more tough for you? And he was very open about this being something that, you know, sarma's been a great gift for them. He was like, you know, I'd like him to stay, etc, what do I have to do? I mean, he was joking, but it was very, very clear that this man who is in number 10, who is very, very, very unpopular, is not a bad thing for the Reform Party? It's also clear that a sustained period of uncertainty and carnage, as happened under the Conservative Party, if as it suggests it might be, is about to start happening in the Labour Party. It's probably still good for the Reform Party. So I think the headline from recent weeks just this is all quite good for a form.
- [30:06]
Luke Jones
That was Lara Spirit, deputy political editor for the Sunday Times. That is it from us. Do leave us a review wherever you're listening to this on. And if you'd like to continue in touch, our email address is the story the times.com Today's producers were Callum Martin and Sophie McNulty. The executive producer was Taryn Siegel and sound design and theme composition was by Malisetto. I'm Luke Jones. See you.
- [31:02]
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- [31:32]
Lara Spirit
From globalization to innovation, sustainability to market volatility, there's always more than one side to a the story. Explore different perspectives on today's most important business and economic issues with the Flipside podcast from Barclays Investment Bank. Hear two research analysts in a lively debate and get insights from every angle to further inform your view. Listen to the Flipside on your favorite platform.