Inside the Femosphere: No hook-ups and men must pay

Summary

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The Story – "Inside the Femosphere: No Hook-ups and Men Must Pay"

Podcast: The Story (The Times)
Hosts: Manveen Rana, Luke Jones
Guest: Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)
Featured voices: Ro & Savannah (Female Dating Strategy podcast), Kanika Batra (Australian Femosphere Influencer)
Released: May 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the rise and dynamics of the "Femosphere"—a growing online ecosystem of forums, podcasts, influencers, and dating advice primarily for young women. Positioned as a mirror (and sometimes a reaction) to the notorious "manosphere" of male self-help and misogyny, the femosphere is explored as both a backlash and an evolution of older advice paradigms–but now turbocharged by online virality and a sharper, sometimes misandrist, edge. Times journalist Sarah Dytam unpacks her research into the femosphere’s rhetoric, tactics, roots, and implications for modern dating.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Femosphere Defined and its Online Presence

[02:48–05:13]

• Femosphere comprises TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, and viral short-form content platforms.
• It urges women to rethink romantic engagement, emphasizing self-prioritization and economic awareness rather than romance.
• “The basic attitude is men are terrible and I want them to want to date me.” — Sarah Dytam [04:27]

2. A “New” Kind of Dating Advice—But with Old Roots

[05:43–07:09]

• The advice echoes long-standing traditions, like the ‘90s book The Rules: women being chased, men footing the bill, sexual restraint.
• “Once it’s on the Internet, it is just much more heightened and much more extreme.” — Sarah Dytam [06:09]
• Humor and wit are part of the appeal; reminiscent of ‘90s stand-up by Jenny Eclair: “Men are terrible. Also, I’m a straight woman, so what else am I going to do?” — Ro, Female Dating Strategy [07:09]

3. The Lexicon: “High Value” vs. “Low Value” Men & the “50/50” Date Dispute

[07:13–10:14]

• Femosphere uses clear categories for men—‘high value’ men are emotionally, financially, and socially stable.
• A cornerstone is that men should pay for dates, as “going 50/50” is seen as a scam that disadvantages women.
• “He has to add value to your life as well.” — Ro [08:15]
• The rationale: economic inequity (wage gap, unpaid labor) and women’s often higher investment in dates (appearance, prep, emotional stakes).
• “There needs to be some kind of return on investment or appreciation of the cost that they've expended on their end.” — Luke Jones [10:08]

4. Detachment, Transactionality, and “Dark Feminine Energy”

[10:36–13:28]

• Femosphere encourages emotional detachment, arguing women have more to lose if emotionally invested early.
• “Women often find themselves halfway to being in love before you’ve ordered the starter, and the man is like flicking through Tinder in the bathroom between courses.” — Sarah Dytam [11:44]
• Key concepts:
  • Decentering men: Prioritizing self over romantic fulfillment.
  • Dark feminine energy: Confidence, magnetism, and sometimes manipulation.
• “It’s very being in your power... infused with self-help language.” — Sarah Dytam [13:28]

5. Manipulation, “Gender War,” and Toxic Femininity

[13:28–17:53]

• “There’s this idea... that you should be manipulative, that it is not... negative... to be acting in ways that are intended to get a particular reaction from the other person.” — Sarah Dytam [13:28]
• Kanika Batra promotes “sociopathic dating” as women’s defense, equating dating to gender warfare.
• “I always tell women to be very confusing, to be bitchy and cold, and to be difficult, because difficult women capture the attention of men.” — Kanika Batra [02:38, 15:22]
• However, most “manipulation” is described as classic strategic withholding, not coercive behaviors (e.g., waiting for a man to text first).
• The femosphere distinguishes between acceptable manipulation and ‘toxic femininity’ (behavior seen as crossing ethical lines).

6. Roots, Reactions, and Rationale

[21:10–25:04]

• The femosphere is partly a rational–if bleak–response to widespread negative experiences women encounter or witness online and offline: “It’s not irrational for women to be conscious that sexual violence exists... women who invest really heavily and aren’t reciprocated often bear the costs.” — Sarah Dytam [22:59]
• Young women are exposed to the worst of male behavior online; this shapes negativity.
• There is an element of performativity: “My daughter jokes about how she hates all men and never wants a boyfriend... but she’s got loads of male friends.” — Sarah Dytam [33:37]

7. The Economic Lens on Dating

[24:15–27:48]

• Dating advice is starkly economic: seeking equal partners, avoiding being “mooched off.”
• “Romance is a massive con perpetrated on straight women and marriage is essentially a DEI scheme for low value men, which was brutal.” — Savannah, Female Dating Strategy [~26:45]

8. How New Is This? Radical Feminist Roots and Internet-Driven Extremes

[27:48–32:35]

• The femosphere borrows heavily from radical feminism (Andrea Dworkin, Jermaine Greer) but individualizes these politics rather than proposing collective action.
• “Rather than making political change, they are looking to leverage this on a personal level.” — Sarah Dytam [29:43]
• The algorithmic, siloed nature of today’s social media pushes communities toward extremes, boosts the most outrageous messages, and polarizes perspectives: “Things become more extreme within their silos... and more paranoid and more bad faith as well.” — Sarah Dytam [30:57]

9. The Bleakness and the Lost Joy of Dating

[32:35–35:11]

• The femosphere’s tactical, defensive stance may shut down spontaneous romantic encounters.
• “Where is the just going to the pub and having a snog and seeing how it works out? Definitely forbidden under Female Dating Strategy.” — Sarah Dytam [32:37]
• Despite the tone, much of the attitude is performative—real world relationships are less extreme.
• “To be attracted to this attitude in the first place, you’ve got to be dealing with some pretty bleak experiences… it is closing off bit by bit the arena of good faith.” — Sarah Dytam [34:13]
• “Call me an old romantic... what could be better than having a pint with someone who's funny and who you fancy? That's a high value date to me.” — Sarah Dytam [35:07]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I think those two things together, that's the defining attitude of the kind of femisphere influences that I was writing about in this piece. I think the basic attitude is men are terrible and I want them to want to date me.” — Sarah Dytam [04:27]
• “I always tell women to be very confusing, to be bitchy and cold, and to be difficult, because difficult women capture the attention of men.” — Kanika Batra [02:38 and 15:22]
• “Where is the just going to the pub and having a snog and seeing how it works out? Definitely forbidden under Female Dating Strategy.” — Sarah Dytam [32:37]
• “Romance is a massive con perpetrated on straight women and marriage is essentially a DEI scheme for low value men, which was brutal.” — Savannah [~26:45]
• “Rather than making political change, they are looking to kind of leverage this on a personal level.” — Sarah Dytam [29:43]
• “To be attracted to this attitude in the first place, you've got to be dealing with some pretty bleak experiences.” — Sarah Dytam [34:13]

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Important Timestamps

• Femosphere definitions and Princess Nokia as a template – [03:41–05:02]
• Female Dating Strategy’s worldview and payment debate – [07:28–10:14]
• Dark feminine energy & manipulative strategies – [12:22–14:14]
• Kanika Batra on sociopathic dating – [14:14–16:23]
• Economic lens on dating and social class – [24:15–27:48]
• Radical feminism vs. the personal approach – [27:48–30:15]
• The impact of algorithmic silos – [30:57–32:35]
• The nostalgia for romance and “just snogging” – [32:35–35:11]

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Episode Tone & Final Thoughts

The conversation is witty, sometimes starkly cynical, and often self-aware. Both the host and Sarah Dytam approach the topic with a mixture of amusement, sympathy, and concern. Beneath the humor lies a sense that the algorithms and harsh realities of modern online dating are fostering defensiveness and detachment on both sides. Despite the bleakness, Dytam closes with affection for old-fashioned, spontaneous romance—and a hope that, even in a world of viral dating tactics, not all is lost for those who simply want to “fancy someone and see how it works out.”

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Transcript

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[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

From the Times and the Sunday Times, this is the story. I'm Luke Jones. Short of throwing your WI fi router out of the window, it's been impossible to escape the manosphere of late. From self described misogynist Andrew Tate to the problematic live streams of HS Tikki Toki to clavicular telling boys to hit their own faces with a hammer to give them nicer cheekbones.

[Anonymous Woman / Narrator]

When you are not attractive, your life is hell.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

You should be on your computer for hours researching creating yourself a regimen. How can I ascend? What can I do?

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

The murky, murky world of the manosphere has spilled out from its niche corner of the Internet and gone mainstream. But bubbling away alongside this comparatively out of view is another strange, gender specific world of self help, life advice and complaint, one that's reshaping how some young women approach dating. And it's not about romance.

[Kanika Batra (Australian Femosphere Influencer)]

I always tell women to be very confusing, to be bitchy and cold, and to be difficult, because difficult women capture the attention of men.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

It's called the Femisphere, an ecosystem of influencers, forums, podcasts and advice urging women to rethink love entirely. One of My Times colleagues has been investigating and speaking to some of those involved. The story today, no hookups and men must pay Inside the Femosphere.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

I'm a 44 year old married woman. My algorithm is not primed for dating strategy content.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

That's Sarah Dytam, writer for the Times.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

But last year I got really, really obsessed with an album by an American rapper called Princess Nokia Girls, which I think I listened to it on repeat for about six months, absolutely loved it. Which is basically, I came to realize is extremely femisphere coded. So it's kind of adopts this, this extremely hostile, negative, basically misandrous attitude towards men in lots of ways. She raps about how men are liars, rapists, thieves, terrible people generally who you don't really want to have anything to do with. But then at the same time she's rapping about being like hot and sexy and attractive and being a powerful woman in that kind of arena. And I think those two things together, that's the defining attitude of the kind of femisphere influences that I was writing about in this piece. I think the basic attitude is men are terrible and I want them to want to date me.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

And just first of all, before we get into that, where does it exist as you started to actually get deeper into it, where is that message being pushed aside from that one album by Princess Nokia?

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

This is something that you'll find on TikTok, also on Instagram, also on YouTube, essentially on those social networks that really promote virality and reward, you know, saying outrageous things in short form content. That's where you're likely to find this stuff.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

So if the broad span of this is men are bad, how does it actually talk about that problem? Like everything these days, there's like almost a glossary that you've got to have, isn't there?

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Oh, very much, yeah. It has its own vocabulary. And I think we should remember as well that like there is a long history of women offering quite brutal dating advice for women. So when I was growing up in the 90s, the Big Book was the rules. The rules of the rules were the women shouldn't do the chasing, men should buy dinner, you shouldn't put out until a certain point in the relationship. So it's not a new thing for people to be offering this advice to women. That takes quite a schematic approach to the way that you should be relating to men. What's different about the femisphere version of this advice is like anything, once it's on the Internet, it is Just much more heightened and much more extreme in lots of ways. And also I should say as I, I want to be completely honest about this. A lot of the women who are doing this are very, very funny and I had a fantastic time writing this piece because they are very witty. I mean, in some ways as well. Again, to like look at an older kind of ancestor, an older precedent for this kind of stuff. If you remember the kind of stand up that someone like Jenny Eclair was doing in the 1990s, again, like very Men are terrible. Also, I'm a straight woman, so what

[Ro / Female Dating Strategy Podcast Host]

else am I going to do?

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Right? That's the tone. But there is some exceptions that there

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

are, that not all men are bad. How does this world categorize men and what are some of the things that they say women should do, straight women should do to try and navigate them? For example, am I a high value or a low value man?

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

For example, if you look at something like Female Dating Strategy, which podcast grew out of a very active Reddit community.

[Ro / Female Dating Strategy Podcast Host]

What's up queens? Welcome to the Female Dating Strategy Podcast, the meanest female only podcast on the Internet. I'm your host, Ro, and this is Savannah. And I'm Lilith. And today's topic, why going 5050 in relationships is a Scam.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Female Dating Strategy has a really explicit categorization of high value men who are men who are both emotionally stable, but also financially and socially stable.

[Savannah (Female Dating Strategy Podcast Co-host)]

The FDS definition of what a high value man is, it's essentially a man with good values. Certain values I would say, should be non negotiable.

[Ro / Female Dating Strategy Podcast Host]

He has to add value to your life as well. He has to add value to your life.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Yeah. And one of the ways that the Female Dating Strategy recommends that you sort of filter your dating pool for high value men is that if a man asks you out on a date, he should offer to pay for dinner. And so this has obviously been one of the most contentious bits of advice from the femosphere.

[Ro / Female Dating Strategy Podcast Host]

I can't believe we haven't talked about it on the podcast yet, because I almost take it for granted that men should pay for dates.

[Savannah (Female Dating Strategy Podcast Co-host)]

It's probably our most controversial one, to be fair. This is the, the, this is the point that gets the scrotes backs up.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

The Most people are very hostile to the idea that 5050 is somehow wrong. I mean, I'm hostile to it as well. Like my default is if I want to start a relationship on equal terms. Not that I've had to think about this for a very long time, but that you should set that precedent in the way you did. And going 50, 50 is a way of saying that I expect us to be equal partners for the rest of this relationship. The female dating strategy reposted, that is, well, look at the financial environment for women overall. So look at the fact that women get paid less, women end up with lower pension contributions, women do the majority of the housework, women have the babies.

[Savannah (Female Dating Strategy Podcast Co-host)]

If we're talking about, you know, moving in, if we're talking about marriage, if we're talking about having kids, again, it is women who are disproportionately bearing the brunt of this.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Also, the fact that women invest a lot in terms of a date, when you think about getting dressed up, doing their makeup, all of this stuff. So you'll find in the female dating strategy bible, there is a literal line by line breakdown of how much a woman might spend on getting ready for a date. In terms of getting your nails done, getting your hair done, the makeup, the clothes, all of this stuff.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

And so there needs to be some kind of return on investment or appreciation of the cost that they've expended on their end.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Right. So the framing for this is suddenly an extremely radical feminist redistribution argument actually

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

mixed with Martin Lewis.

[Savannah (Female Dating Strategy Podcast Co-host)]

Right?

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Yeah, Martin Lewis. But you're getting some. Is that. Yeah. Or rather, you know, not getting some until an appropriate time into the relationship, actually.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

But hand in hand with that as well is it seems like something of a detachment from the kind of emotional and romantic side of any of this. It's very transactional.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Detachment is a really important part of it. And again, I think you can really sympathise with where this comes from because a lot of women find themselves in a dating environment where, if you think about it in purely numerical terms, women are going to be more selective about the men they choose to go on dates with. There's the fact that there's like genuine low but genuine risk of violence and unpleasantness for women when you form a relationship with a man you don't know, which I think makes women more cautious. There's also theory that men are just, you know, like the sexual. The reproductive incentives for men reward promiscuity. So men are more likely to be risk taking and more likely to kind of put themselves out there and meet lots of women. What that means, like at an interpersonal level, once you've kind of rinsed it through the algorithm machine of online dating, is that when a woman agrees to meet a man, she has already done a fair amount of selecting. She has already decided that this is someone who she's interested in and may well be emotionally invested to a certain extent, whereas a man is more likely to be, you know, I'll give it a chance, right. I might not be that keen, but I'll go and I'll see how it is. And I think the end result of that is that women often find themselves halfway to being in love before you've ordered the starter. And the man is like flicking through Tinder in the bathroom between courses. Right. So you can see where this comes from, this advice that women should be more detached and should not immediately kind of throw their heart into a relationship.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

And is that what is described as dark feminine energy? I read in your piece Tell us about that.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Yes. So what we were just talking about that is what is described as de centering men. The idea of de centering men is that you put yourself first, you have your own personal development and you then don't need a man to complete your. Your life. Dark feminine energy is more a way of describing the attitude that you bring in order to attract a high value man and in order to do your de centering of men. So dark feminine energy, it was described to me by one of the influencers I spoke to as being dark feminine

[Savannah (Female Dating Strategy Podcast Co-host)]

energies where you're just like f this, you know, I want to be this

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

kind of woman and I'm not going to be told who I can be because I set the rules, you know, so it's like that confidence that, like, you know, that magnetism that comes from a woman and all women have it, they just haven't been able to kind

[Savannah (Female Dating Strategy Podcast Co-host)]

of tap into that because they're too worried about what men may think or what society may think.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

Right.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

It's very mysterious. It's very being said, being in your power, I think was one of the phrases she used. So it's very inflected with the sort of self help language that is rampant on the Internet. There is this idea embedded in the femosphere that you should be, that you should be manipulative, that it is not a, it's not negative, it's not ethically dodgy to be acting in ways that are intended to get a particular reaction from the other person. So Kanika Batra, who is an Australian vesphere influencer, who I spoke.

[Kanika Batra (Australian Femosphere Influencer)]

So I wrote the sociopathic dating bible because I saw basically how badly women were being treated in relationships during the red pill sort of manosphere era, whose

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

USP is that she is a diagnosed sociopath and her attitude is that she can help women to Understand men, because as a sociopath, she thinks like men.

[Kanika Batra (Australian Femosphere Influencer)]

I was thinking, okay, no, I can put a stop to this because I have the same sort of, I guess, mind as one of these men, because antisocial personality disorder is quite significant in lowering empathy. And I believe that a lot of these men have little to no empathy. And then they're teaching these things to men who are pretty stupid.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

That was a bit like, okay, I'm a feminist. I write a lot about male violence. I, you know, I can give you chapter and verse on the unfair distribution of domestic labor. And even though it's like, this is a bit strong for me, I always

[Kanika Batra (Australian Femosphere Influencer)]

tell women to be very confusing, to be bitchy and cold and to be difficult, because difficult women capture the attention of men. Women are too soft. What if it hurts his feelings? Whereas it's like, lady, are you insane? He would throw you in front of a bus if there was any material gain for him.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

And I was like, oh, yeah, you know, like, that's interesting. I mean, is it also a bit manipulative? And she kind of laughed and said, yeah, I do associate it with the sort of. With feminine psychological tricks, because it's her

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

suggestion, if they are basically psychopaths, we should display psychopathic tendencies as well to basically match them.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Exactly. Her attitude is essentially that women are not even bringing a knife to a gunfight. We're not bringing, you know, we're bringing a rose to a gunfight, and then we're being surprised that we get shot down in romantic encounters.

[Kanika Batra (Australian Femosphere Influencer)]

A lot of women buy the book, they love the book, but I feel like they should be implementing the book because, like, there's no way to combat this kind of onslaught, like, towards women without actually having that defense mechanism that you can use and to actually detach from relationships until they're worth your attachment.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

So Sakina, Benzica and one of the influencers I spoke to, she literally said that she thinks we're in a gender war and a dating war. So that legitimizes these kind of manipulative tactics. I should also say, like, in terms of manipulation, it's pretty low key. It is, again, if you go back to something like the rules, it's manipulation in the sense of, like, you don't text him, you wait for him to text you, or, like, you act a bit haughty, so he puts the effort into chasing. You're not really talking about extremely coercive behaviors. And again, the femisphere has a language for stuff that they think crosses the line into coercive. Coercion. And they call that toxic femininity, which sounds like it should be a partner to toxic masculinity. But you know, it is a very different realm of bad behavior, right? You're not talking about violence, you're not talking about exploitation. You are talking about crossing the line in terms of being manipulative, which is bad, but it's not the same.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

So what does all of this say about the modern dating scene? How much of this also is actually new? Has it ever been thus? We'll have more from Sarah in a moment.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Foreign.

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million people in the United States are adolescents between the ages of 14 and 24. They're working, parenting, leading, sometimes all at once.

[Ro / Female Dating Strategy Podcast Host]

I'm balancing work and being a mom at the same time, and I'm still on track to graduate with my bachelor's next year.

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So what do today's young people need to truly thrive? Tune in to good things from Lemonada Media to hear the six part Thrive series.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

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[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

Sarah we're talking about the Femisphere, which you have been investigating. I can feel my bra, if not burning, already singeing at the thought of this. Can you actually delve into some of the origins of what this are? Because you've laid all of that out there. But I can't understand whether you feel like this is a maybe not a reasonable response, but it's easily explainable why this is happening because of the circumstances under which many women are living and dating.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

I actually have a lot of sympathy for women who are attracted to femisphere arguments. It reflects quite a widespread sense of negativity that young women have as well. So there was some polling done by the new statesmen and they were looking more at, again, a slightly different aspect of the femosphere. So the more left wing political side of the femosphere, like young women who are often and very attracted to the Green Party, but again have very negative feelings about men. They wouldn't identify with the sort of the financial aspect of the femosphere influence that I was talking to. But at the same time they share this sense that men are very disappointing. I think in lots of ways this is a rational response to things that women are either dealing with personally or are exposed to. So if you're a young woman who spends any amount of time online, which is all young women, obviously you are going to see really hostile, really disturbing stuff from men directed towards women. And again, this isn't, you know, that stuff does not reflect the majority attitude of men towards women. And the kind of the extremes of the manosphere are not the, you know, average attitude of the average man that you're likely to be meeting. But I think you see these things and you are conscious that they exist in the world. You are conscious that there are men out there who do think these things and who are liable to be deeply unpleasant if you end up in a relationship with them. And so it's not necessarily that women think every single man in the world is a danger and a menace, but the way that women encounter the world and the way that the media environment we all exist in rewards extremity means that women are seeing the absolute worst of men. And again, you know, and this is not, again, I really want to stress that it is not irrational for women to be conscious that sexual violence exists. Like, men can be very selfish in relationships and that if they invest really heavily in a relationship and it's not reciprocated in the same way, they're liable to end up like, bearing the costs in like quite painful ways. I absolutely know women who like gave their heart over to a man who just kind of faffed around for the last five years of their 30s, and then they ended up not having a kid when they really wanted to have a kid. Like, that kind of stuff is heartbreaking.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

But it's interesting how economic all of this has got because, I mean, you mentioned the cost there and I assume for the most part meant the emotional cost. But I remember actually was on this podcast maybe a year ago when adolescence was out, and we spoke to this guy who ran sessions with young, I think only like 13 year olds in school, and he was saying the amount of them, he seemed to spout this idea that, well, you need to be careful about women and girls because, you know, they're gold diggers, they're after our cash. And he's like, you're 13, you haven't got any cash. But already this had sunk into them. And then some of the women you're talking to, they are moving in a direction, it seems, where they are. Okay, let's detach from the emotional side of things because we need to make this marriage, if we are going to get married financially, work for us. And we need to think about this person's salary, not necessarily whether we like them. Why has it become such an economic enterprise and concern?

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

It's very stark, isn't it? Again, like, I want to respect the sort of nuances in here which don't always come across in influence the content. So there are influencers who will literally talk about being a gold digger. Savannah, when I spoke to her, she was very interesting on this. So she was saying that actually like her personal situation is she does not need a man to keep her. Right. She has a nice life on her solo income. So it's not about looking for a man who can keep her. It's more about looking for a man who is her equal, who is someone who can be like an equal partner in their relationship and someone who she wouldn't feel was, you know, she wouldn't suspect was draining her. Which again, I think it's quite important to look at that perspective in an environment where, you know, for all that the, that the wage gap is real and it does exist and whatever. We are in a situation where a lot of younger women especially are out earning their male peers and are conscious of that and they don't want to be mooched off. I think this is actually saying in quite stark terms, something that is true for a lot of people in terms of how we think about romantic partners. I think most people Consciously or otherwise, when you're looking at romantic partners, the majority of people are looking for someone who is roughly on the same kind of. Of financial and class level as you are. Right. There are obviously examples of relationships with big inequalities there. But on the whole, people kind of date, like, with like, I think. And there are good reasons why people tend to do that, but we don't talk about it because it's a bit crass. Right. And there's something so incredibly stark about people, and especially women. I think it is more shocking when women do it because women are supposed to be nice about women just laying out the kind of dollar and cent value that they put on a relationship. I was quite shocked, You know, where is the romance? And at which point Savannah said that she thought romance was a massive con perpetrated on straight women and marriage was essentially a DEI scheme for low value men, which was brutal.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

How new do you think any of this is? I mean, reading your piece, I was wondering, you know, like, what would. What would Jermaine Greer, I mean, obviously still with us, but not sort of as vocal, but like, what would she have made of this? Because actually some of this, you know, the idea of women being sort of forced into being sort of passive and compliant, sort of agentless kind of players in all of this, actually needing to retake some control. I mean, that's what she was banging on about in the 70s.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Yeah, I think you're right. I think a lot of the analysis the Femisphere is drawing on is really familiar from radical feminism. Definitely. It's talking about wage gaps, it's talking about reproductive labor, it's talking about sexual labor. The difference is that radical feminists kind of took that analysis and they built a sort of a revolutionary prospectus on it. Right. Look at someone like Andrea Dworkin, who in many ways, I mean, I think I've listened to episodes of female dating strategy that straight up quoted Andrea Dworkin, and I was like, goodness, this is unexpected. And someone like Andrew Dworkin, who had a really searing analysis of pornography and sexual violence and on the basis of that tried to make legislative changes that would act against the pornography industry in America. Like, they didn't come to fruition in the end, but there was a. Like a political project that came out of her analysis. So the Femosphere shares loads of the same attitudes when it comes to pornography, when it comes to sexual violence, when it comes to male sexual entitlement.

[Savannah (Female Dating Strategy Podcast Co-host)]

We see this a lot from the lib femmes, especially when they accept things like a guy who watches porn in the relationship and then they all of a sudden find out that he's actually a porn addict and it completely wrecks their life.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

But rather than looking to make political change, they are looking to kind of leverage this on a personal level. Right. Rather than saying porn is terrible, we should try and get rid of the porn industry. It's like they're saying porn is terrible. You need to filter out the kind of low value man who uses pornography.

[Ro / Female Dating Strategy Podcast Host]

If we say a high value man is like honest and he doesn't watch porn, that that alone is gonna like eliminate probably like 99% of the male population.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

And so it is taking a lot of the same analysis, but individualizing it rather than collectivizing it.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

And is the fact that all of this is growing up and being pushed out on the Internet actually making it more extreme? Because, you know, if you were Dworkin, if you were Jermaine Grill, Judith Butler, someone like that, these, these were considered long form pieces of work that were then digested and chatted about in the public culture, whereas this, you know, Jermaine Greer, Andrew Dawkin weren't trying to get clicks on TikTok, weren't trying to retain attention. And so obviously that just pushes these ideas more to the extreme, don't they?

[Kanika Batra (Australian Femosphere Influencer)]

Yeah.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

And I think the big difference is the siloing of these ideas. So your algorithm is very private to you. And if you are the kind of person who is being pushed lots of themisphere content, you are not going to be seeing the other side of the coin. Right? So things are very siloed. Things become more extreme within their silos. And when things kind of, when pieces of content achieve escape velocity from their silos, they tend to be the most extreme examples of whatever attitude, whatever influencer sphere you're talking about, which is then sort of glommed onto by the opposite force here and creates an even more heightened and exaggerated version of rhetoric from the other side as well. So everything tends to become more heightened, more exaggerated, and in the case of dating, content, more paranoid and more bad faith as well. I think that was the thing that I found ultimately bleakest about the way femosphere influences talked about this. Because however much I sympathize with where they're coming from, however much I think that they are offering or attempting to offer genuine solutions to practical problems that women encounter in real life, dating in a kind of cartoonish, heightened way, in lots of instances that there is a real phenomenon that they are Responding to. But at the same time, I was a bit like, where is the room for just meeting someone you like and hanging out with them? Like, you know, where is the.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

Where are the. Where are the mixtapes?

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

Where are the mixtapes? Right, where is the. Just going to the pub and having a snog and seeing how it works out. Definitely forbidden under female dating strategy. No going to the pub and just snogging. Number one, snogging before you've determined whether a man is high value or low value, very, very bad. And number two, taking you to the pub, that is low value.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

Date busted.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

All my dates are just going to the pub, but just finally. So does that make you feel quite

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

sad about all of their prospects? In the same way that, you know, when I see HS Tiki Toky or Andrew Tate talking, you know, saying to young boys that they need a flash car and they need to be sort of traders online to have anyone like them. I mean, you see some of this and think, oh, God, pity our species.

[Sarah Dytam (Times Contributor)]

I do a bit. I think. I think it's always worth remembering with this stuff that there's probably a gap between the professed attitudes and between the actual beliefs that people have. For example, my daughter is 19 and she will quite cheerfully joke about how she hates all men and never wants to have a boyfriend, but she's also actually got loads of male friends who she thinks very highly of and who come round around to our house for tea. So, you know, there's. There is a. I think there is a performative aspect to a kind of eventing, basically saying, oh, you know, like, I despair. This is terrible. Men are awful. Men are trash. That isn't actually a full reflection of how young women feel about men in totality, but it does make me think that, number one, it makes me think that to be attracted to this attitude in the first place, you've got to be dealing with some pretty bleak experiences when it comes to dating and when it comes to meeting potential romantic prospects. And that's pretty sad. And it makes me sad because I just think it is closing off bit by bit, the kind of arena of good faith where fancying someone and seeing that as a foundation for a potential relationship can exist. So, I mean, I don't know, like, call me an old romantic, but you're an old romantic. You know, what could be better than having a pint with someone who's funny and who you fancy? That's like, that's a high value date to me.

[Luke Jones (Interviewer, The Times)]

That was Sarah Digham, Times contributor. You can find her piece. No Hookups and Men Must Pay Inside the Themosphere [e-mail] that is it from us. The producer and sound designer today was Dave Creasy. The executive producer was Kate Ford. And I'm Luke Jones. We'll be back tomorrow.

[Barclays Brief / Lemonada Media Host]

48 million people in the United States are adolescents between the ages of 14 and 24. They're working, parenting, leading, sometimes all at once.

[Ro / Female Dating Strategy Podcast Host]

I'm balancing work and being a mom at the same time, and I'm still on track to graduate with my bachelor's next year.

[Barclays Brief / Lemonada Media Host]

So what do today's young people need to truly thrive? Tune in to good things from Lemonada Media to hear the six part Thrive series.

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