INVESTIGATION: On the line - Mike

Summary

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The Story – INVESTIGATION: On the line - Mike

Podcast by The Times
Episode Date: March 24, 2026
Host: David Wood (Crime Editor, The Times)
Main Interviewee: “Mike” (Pseudonym, former County Lines drug runner)

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Episode Overview

This episode, part of The Times’ in-depth investigative series on County Lines gangs, features a rare and candid interview with “Mike,” a young man who became involved in County Lines drug running as a teenager. Host and crime editor David Wood explores Mike’s journey: how he was drawn into the world of drugs, his experiences at the sharp end of exploitation, his eventual arrest, and the support that helped him escape. The account gives listeners a firsthand perspective of the mechanics of grooming, exploitation, and survival in a system that preys on vulnerable youths.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Early Life and First Encounters (03:35–08:00)

• Mike describes a typical, fun, if “rough” childhood growing up in a less affluent part of London, witnessing violence on a regular basis.
• Exposure to Gangs: At 15 or 16, Mike is propositioned by an older man outside a Morley’s chicken shop, who offers him hundreds of pounds to do drug errands.
• His initial task is to hand out drugs (crack and heroin) to buyers at a trap house, where he stays for several days, surviving on minimal food and no change of clothes.
• Quote:

  “From that young age it really did entice me because like I said, I never really had that back then.” – Mike (05:00)

2. Life in the Trap House – Psychological and Physical Toll (05:31–07:14)

• Mike spends successive days inside unsanitary, dangerous trap houses, quickly realizing the grim reality.
• He lies to his family to hide his absence, juggling excuses to avoid suspicion.
• The exploitative nature of the work is apparent, but at the time, the money overshadows the dangers.

3. Cycle of Exploitation and Power Imbalance (07:47–10:55)

• Mike reflects, only in hindsight, that he was “blinded” to how he was being used.
• Despite wanting to stop, persistent pressure and intimidation draw him back in.
• Quote:

  “I couldn’t really get out of it in a way, because he was just always there... He did used to rough me about a little bit to kind of like, make sure that he knew that he was serious. It was a bit scary…” – Mike (10:23)

4. Balancing Family Life and Secrecy (11:38–13:14)

• Mike’s relationship with his mother is decent but distant—he hides the truth to spare her worry.
• Increasing suspicion and pressure from his mother as she picks up on his absences and behavioral changes.

5. Peer Pressure and Escalating Involvement (13:32–15:03)

• The normalization of this lifestyle among peers keeps him involved; he chases money and approval.
• Fear is a constant undercurrent, especially when dealing with aggressive addicts.

6. Discovery and Forced Relocation (15:03–16:28)

• After his parents discover evidence of his activities, they relocate the family to the Midlands in an attempt to provide a fresh start.
• Mike initially resists, feels isolated and “back being broke again,” but is still drawn to criminal activity.

7. History Repeats in New Town (16:40–18:11)

• Within weeks of moving, Mike meets another older man in his new area; starts by selling cannabis, quickly escalates to dealing heroin and crack again when the money from weed proves insufficient.
• Quote:

  “I realized I wasn't making nowhere near as much as I was selling cracking heroin. So I did eventually transition over to doing that again.” – Mike (17:36)

8. Being Sent Across the Country (20:08–21:20)

• Mike is moved by gangs between towns (Middlewich, Cardiff, Telford) to deal drugs. He describes the fear of transporting high-value drugs on trains, sometimes urged to “bank” (conceal) drugs within his body.

9. Turning Points: Close Calls and Arrest (21:32–24:14)

• A near-arrest in Cardiff when police arrive minutes after he flees, followed by eventual arrest and charging in Cheshire.
• Realization dawns as police inform him he’s expendable, learning the property he worked in had been raided before.
• Memorable Quote:

  “He really did kind of like treat me as another expendable guy just for his own gain.” – Mike (24:14)

10. Manipulation Around Age and the Law (25:18–25:51)

• Older gang members assure young recruits they’re less likely to be punished harshly due to their age, which is used as a grooming tool and to keep them in the cycle.

11. Mentorship and the Road to Recovery (26:28–28:13)

• While awaiting court, he’s assigned a mentor, Nikki from St Giles Trust, whose candid, supportive lectures plant the seeds for change.
• Mike opens up to Nikki in ways he couldn’t with his family; begins contemplating a different future, credits her support for helping him shift his mindset.
• Quote:

  “She would tell me about how it's not worth it and the consequences of it... I started thinking about what my life would be like if I had a normal job, if I wasn't doing all these things that I did before.” – Mike (27:13)

12. Final Straws: Court, Community Service, and Violence (28:16–29:54)

• In court, faces terror but avoids prison—receives community service.
• Continues contact with former criminal acquaintances, until he is violently attacked (stabbed) by old associates after trying to leave the lifestyle.
• The attack, alongside Nikki’s guidance, becomes a critical moment of deeper realization.

13. Reflections on Victimhood and Exploitation (30:56–32:52)

• Mike did not see himself as a victim during his involvement, only understanding his exploitation in hindsight.
• Recognizes now how manipulation, normalization, and peer pressure clouded his judgement and agency:

  “When you're in that type of lifestyle and doing them type of things, you really don't see things clearly. Like, you don't really see right from wrong, because what... What you're doing now you often think is right, and that's only because of what's around you, the peer pressure...” – Mike (31:36)

14. Hopes, Advice, and the Need for Support (33:30–36:13)

• Mike considers himself lucky for having support, worries for countless others without intervention.
• Advice to parents: cultivate strong, open relationships and be vigilant.
• Expresses a desire to help others:

  “I just want to live a peaceful life. To be fair, I do want to help kids, people who was in my situation... there’s really and truly a rabbit hole when it comes to young people doing county lines.” – Mike (34:49, 36:13)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On feeling empowered by money, and addiction to ‘pride’:

  “I kind of felt a bit too prideful... I was really enjoying it at the time, I'm afraid.” – Mike (11:21)

• On violence and fear:

  “Sometimes [addicts] would get a bit aggy... I would just give them like a free item... because I just didn't want the problems.” – Mike (13:58)

• On realization and change:

  “I know when we're in that lifestyle, it's like you're under a spell. You really don't think straight.” – Mike (36:06)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Early Life, First Approach: 03:35–05:04
• Trap House Experiences: 05:13–06:52
• Power Imbalance & Intimidation: 07:47–10:55
• Family Dynamics: 11:38–12:56
• Peer Pressure: 13:32–15:03
• Family Intervention & Move: 15:03–16:28
• Restarting in Midlands: 16:40–18:11
• Cross-country Drug Running: 20:08–21:20
• Close Calls & Arrest: 21:32–24:14
• Mentorship Impact: 26:28–28:13
• Stabbing, Aftermath: 28:51–29:54
• Reflections on Exploitation: 30:56–32:52
• Advice & Hopes: 33:30–36:13

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Tone & Style

The conversation is frank, insightful, and raw. Mike’s language is conversational, humble, and often introspective. His account oscillates between matter-of-fact recounting and moments of emotional intensity—regret, pride, shame, and a growing desire for peace and purpose.

David Wood asks compassionate but probing questions, guiding Mike through a narrative that underscores the systemic nature of exploitation and the urgent need for supportive intervention.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a gripping, firsthand look at the lived reality of County Lines grooming and exploitation in Britain. Mike’s story is both cautionary and hopeful—illustrating, through his words and experiences, how easy it is for vulnerable youth to be ensnared, and how critical timely support is in breaking the cycle.

For parents, professionals, and anyone curious about the mechanics and consequences of County Lines, Mike’s account is essential listening—grounded, thoughtful, and ultimately a powerful testament to resilience and the possibility of change.

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Next Episode Preview:
The series will conclude with discussions featuring politicians and police on tackling County Lines and preventing exploitation.

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Transcript

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[David Wood]

From the Times and the Sunday Times. This is the story. I'm David Wood, I'm the crime editor at the Times. One night last year, I. I arrived back at my station in South London in the early hours of the morning. I went to collect a train ticket and as I stood at the machine, I noticed a couple of kids, they couldn't have been older than 13, on their own in the middle of the night, a rucksack on their back and an ancient phone in one of their hands. I watched as they waited. People streamed past and paid them no attention. But I recognised the signs. As a crime reporter, I spent hours sitting on press benches in courts all around the country. And I've seen these kids, or kids like them, in the dock looking bored as their barristers explain how they got wrapped up in selling Class A drugs for County Lines gangs. Now, we've been talking about County Lines all week, focusing on how the police have been fighting back against drug organisations in York. But that moment in the station made Me want to hear directly from the children actually involved in County Lines. And then I met Mike. That's not his real name. He's in his early 20s and he stopped selling drugs for a County Nines gang a few years ago. He agreed to tell me all about his experiences for the very first time. The story today on the line Episode 4 Mike. Like those kids I saw in the station, Mike spent his early years in London.

[Mike]

Life was pretty fun for the most part. I had a lot of friends, used to be going out often, but I was a bit rough as well.

[Interviewer]

What do you mean?

[Mike]

Like the area I did live in wasn't the richest growing up. There was a bit of violence around my area. Some loose screws, I would say.

[Interviewer]

Can you remember how you felt about seeing that type of violence in an area that you called home?

[Mike]

I mean, at the start I didn't really know the severity of it because I was so young. So at the time I did kind of was somewhat enticed about the lifestyle that the people in my area had compared to me at least.

[Interviewer]

So how did it start? Can you remember the first time somebody approached you to maybe try to entice you to do something?

[Mike]

I mean, I was walking down to the shop. At first I did see an older guy. He normally always stands there. It's a Morley's. Morley's is just a chicken shop.

[Interviewer]

It's a chain, isn't it?

[Mike]

Around Chain around London.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Mike]

He's always in the corner there. I'm walking to the shop, I come out of the shop and he says, yo, he came to me. He's talking to me about drugs and stuff and telling me if I go to certain places I can get a couple bills like 300 pound to 400 pound. And from that young age it really did entice me because like I said, I never really had that back then.

[Interviewer]

How old were you at the time?

[Mike]

Probably, I'll say about 16, 15.

[Interviewer]

Can you remember the first time he asked you to do something for him?

[Mike]

I remember the first time. It was actually the same day I met him as well. He was asking me to just go to a house. He said he would give me 20. And all I had to do was just give certain pebbles or items out to each customer that comes to the door. I was a bit skeptical, but I did want to try it.

[Interviewer]

What drugs were you asked to take?

[Mike]

Cracking Heroin.

[Interviewer]

Had you ever seen crack or heroin before?

[Mike]

Never before that. It was in like a cling film bag and they were all wrapped up individually into little rocks. In other cling films, white and black, to identify which ones they were.

[Interviewer]

How long were you there for that address?

[Mike]

I was there for about three or four days.

[Interviewer]

You were there for three or four days? Sounds a bit silly, but like, were you able to leave? Did you have a spare change of clothes? Did you have money to go buy food?

[Mike]

I didn't change clothes. I was in my same clothes from the start. I did was allowed 10, 15 pounds every day to get some food.

[Interviewer]

But, you know, this is such a transition from someone just approach you on the street to basically putting you in a property, a trap house. Can you remember how you felt like on day three or day four?

[Mike]

I didn't really like staying there, obviously, because it was very dirty and normally I'll just stick to one location, like a chair and I just wouldn't get up from that chair on day three, day four, it started to get a little toll on me because I kind of lost a lot of weight and the fumes off sitting in the house of the addicts actually smoking, it was getting to me as well. So by them days I kind of started to dread it a little bit.

[Interviewer]

Were you able to be reached by your parents? If they were trying to get you on the phone, asking where were you? If you'd been gone for two, three,

[Mike]

four days, they would call me. Normally I would bluff saying, I'm at my friend's house. They would get onto me, obviously, so I'll just carry on saying I'm at my friend's house. At my friend's house. So the school situation, I just told my mother I was sick. That's how I kind of worked around it.

[Interviewer]

So basically there was like lots of spinning of plates. Precisely at the end of those four days, did he come and collect the money?

[Mike]

Yes, he would come or I would just go out and meet him somewhere where I'd give him the money. Close to £1,000, I would say.

[Interviewer]

And was he running other young people in different addresses?

[Mike]

Yes, definitely more than two, not including me.

[Interviewer]

So potentially he's making £3,000 every three or four days.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

When you look back, can you see how quickly the power imbalance took hold on you and how essentially this man who's making a lot of money was basically exploiting you?

[Mike]

I can see that now, but at the time I was very blinded. I didn't see it at all because obviously I wouldn't have done it.

[Interviewer]

So you're walking away from that front door with three to four hundred pounds in your pocket. What did you buy?

[Mike]

I Did kind of just buy a lot of foolishness because at the time I was smoking as well. So I did. First thing, I did buy, like a zed off weed. 24 grams of weed, right? Yeah.

[Interviewer]

How much did that cost?

[Mike]

Like 120. That was the first thing I brought because I did like smoking. Went out with my friends. Spent a lot of money on sleepiness, food, drinks.

[Interviewer]

What about material objects? Did you buy, like, clothes, trainers?

[Mike]

I only bought like a jacket, Like a windbreaker jacket.

[Interviewer]

Did you go into, like, central London to buy it?

[Mike]

Yeah, precisely the.

[Interviewer]

How did you feel like walking through

[David Wood]

central London with all that money in

[Interviewer]

your pocket at, like, 16 years old?

[Mike]

It did feel very, very good. I won't even lie. I did feel like a somewhat of a man going in, buying my own clothes for the first time with a lot of money because we never used to have the funds. So when I did get that type of money, I felt like I kind of could spread my wings a little bit, if that makes sense, go to the shop and buy whatever I desire. It did feel very prideful, and I think that's where I kind of get addicted. I. At the time, I didn't see the risk. I didn't know how severe it was at the time. I just saw loads of cash. I was like, yeah, I want this.

[David Wood]

Mike tells me he was open to the idea of doing more work, just not with that guy who asked him the first time.

[Mike]

He was very stern with it, kind of rude, like, he didn't really respect me, in a sense. I was just like one of his expendable workers. He did try to shout me again, obviously. I used to go out all the time around the area, and he was always posted by the Morleys. So he did try to shout me a couple times, but I kind of talked my way out of it.

[David Wood]

The man waiting outside the chicken shop kept asking, started applying pressure.

[Mike]

I was just thinking, he's gonna carry on asking me again and again.

[Interviewer]

Did you feel trapped at the time?

[Mike]

Yeah, when he was pressuring me, I did. I couldn't really get out of it in a way, because he was just always there. There was literally no void in him. He was out a lot. Like, he would kind of talk to me stern and be like, yo, you gotta do this, this, that. And obviously he was much bigger than me. He did used to rough me about a little bit to kind of like, make sure that he knew that he was serious. It was a bit scary in a sense, because I didn't really want to do it anymore.

[David Wood]

Eventually Though Mike agreed to return to dealing.

[Mike]

I would have a pedal bike and obviously around the estate, addicts would come to different parts of the state and I would just go pedal to them and give them certain items.

[Interviewer]

How did you feel like on a pedal bike? Carrying, I'm assuming, class A drugs, Crack, Heroin. Did you ever feel a little bit exposed or a bit vulnerable?

[Mike]

No, I didn't feel them type of emotions, I would not lie. I kind of felt like a man in a sense. Like, I kind of felt a bit too prideful. I was thinking, yeah, I'm top guy. I was really enjoying it at the time, I'm afraid.

[Interviewer]

When we were talking earlier, you talked about how your family would call you to find out where you are. Can I ask, what was your relationship like with your parents at the time?

[Mike]

My relationship was alright, obviously. I never lived with my dad. He lived on the other side of London, so he wasn't really there as much. It was just my mum. My relationship with my mother was pretty decent, I would say.

[Interviewer]

Were you close?

[Mike]

Depends what you mean.

[Interviewer]

Could you talk to her about anything?

[Mike]

I didn't want to talk to her because I didn't want her to worry. I would do something like two truths and a lie to hide where I was going because, like I said, I never wanted her to worry because when she starts worrying, she would call me consistently, get on my case a lot, and I just didn't want that to happen.

[Interviewer]

Do you think she suspected something was wrong? Yeah, Mums know, right? Does she ever try to approach you about this?

[Mike]

She did a couple times. She would ask if I was involved in drugs or if I was smoking, because at the time I did, I was smoking and I did try hide it a lot from her as well, but I just kept denying it, kept denying it, kept denying it for the sole reason of not letting her worry.

[Interviewer]

How do you think she felt?

[Mike]

She was probably. That's a good question. I never really thought about that one, if I'm being honest.

[Interviewer]

Did the pressure start to build over time?

[Mike]

She did used to get more. More like in my business, trying to ask more questions, especially when I'm away from home overnights as well.

[Interviewer]

And from outside, were there pressures to go to more addresses, to have more drugs to sell?

[Mike]

Yeah, it was because my area, there was other people that was doing it as well. And peer pressure did play big factor in it as well, I would say, like these guys were doing it often. They would have the funds, they're planning things and once my money ran out, I didn't have the funds to be doing all that. So I, Lowkey, wanted to do it more so I could join in with them doing them things.

[Interviewer]

Did you ever feel fear at the time?

[Mike]

Initially, I did feel a little bit of fear at the time. I was small as well and the addicts were quite big. Sometimes they would get a bit aggy in a sense, for my own safety. If they were getting a bit rowdy, I would just give them like a free item, if you know what I'm saying, because I just didn't want the problems. And that would initially cool them down, take their attention away from me.

[David Wood]

Each free gift came with a price. Mike's wages would be deducted if he brought back less than the dealers expected.

[Interviewer]

When you look back on that now, what do you think of the 16, 17 year old who was being made to do this? And this was what he had.

[Mike]

Looking back at it now, it is very crazy to think because I had potential, in other words, aspects of life. So it kind of does bug me that younger me did go down that path.

[David Wood]

Eight months in, Mike's parents found evidence of what he was doing.

[Mike]

They did get a hold of my phone and they did kind of see what was going on. And then she got in contact with my father and then father gave me lack of stern telling off and they wanted to move me away from all this stuff. All the way up to the Midlands. Yeah, the Midlands. To get me away from it.

[David Wood]

His mother moved them both across the country.

[Mike]

At first I was like, no, what are you guys talking about? Guys are talking nonsense. Obviously I was denying a lot of things as well. I did resist a lot and then I didn't really have a choice.

[Interviewer]

Can you tell me how you felt when you arrived?

[Mike]

When I first arrived on Coventry, it was kind of like a. How can I say, it was pretty weird because there wasn't red buses and stuff like that. Initially, I hated it. I did hate it for quite a bit at first, until I really settled down and I just adapted to it.

[Interviewer]

How did you feel being away from the people who were essentially exploiting you

[Mike]

to sell drugs at the time? It was like, cool, I don't have to see this guy again. But at the same time I'm like, I'm back being broke again. I'm just stuck in my home now. No friends.

[Interviewer]

Your parents want you to have a fresh start away from the activities that you were drawn into. Did you want your life to change?

[Mike]

I didn't only because I never saw the issue there and then. So I just thought this is cool I could carry on doing this. So I didn't really want my life to change.

[Interviewer]

What was the moment you realized something was going to happen when you got to Coventry?

[Mike]

It's pretty much the same thing. You live in a certain area, like a block or a state, and there's just always this one older guy or a couple of people just always in that area. And as I was walking, he would do the exact same thing to shout me over. I had to come and see if.

[Interviewer]

How long had you been in Coventry before he stopped you walking down the street and shouted you over?

[Mike]

I'd say like a month or two months. I've seen him consistently in the same area.

[Interviewer]

And how long was it before he asked you to run an errand for him?

[Mike]

It wasn't that long after meeting him. I don't think it was no more than a week as well. Just asked me if I wanted a shot for him.

[Interviewer]

And shot means to sell drugs, right?

[Mike]

Yeah, to sell drugs.

[Interviewer]

It's like history repeating itself. How did you feel at the start?

[Mike]

Because it wasn't hard drugs at the start. He offered me to sell weed, like cannabis. So obviously I smoked cannabis. I thought it was a kind of like it wasn't that deep compared to the other drugs. I'm thinking this is 10 times more safer than selling cracking heroin. So as I was selling the cannabis, I realized I wasn't making nowhere near as much as I was selling cracking heroin. So I did eventually transition over to doing that again.

[David Wood]

After the break, Mike gets sent around the country to deal before he's arrested.

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[David Wood]

Mike had escaped running drugs for a County Lions gang in London. But in the Midlands it was only a matter of months before a new group roped him into selling crack cocaine and heroin once again. And they started sending him around the country to deal.

[Mike]

Middlewich, Cardiff, Telford. I sent quite a few places.

[Interviewer]

And how were you traveling there on train? How did you feel like traveling up and down the transport network with a couple thousand pounds worth of drugs in your bag?

[Mike]

When I was going them long places, that's when I really started, like, cool. This is a bit risky because, like, you know, on the trains there's always officers or law enforcement around. So I was very, very, very nervous going on the trains. Normally when you're doing cross country trips like that with large quantity of drugs, they would tell you to bank it.

[David Wood]

What does that mean?

[Mike]

Put in your ass? But obviously I wouldn't do that. I would just put it around my crutch area to avoid. If you ever got stopped in search, it would be all right.

[Interviewer]

Are you aware of other young people, like your peers who were involved in this type of activity, banking it?

[Mike]

Yeah, because a couple of them would encourage me to do it, saying, yes, calm is more safe. But I just couldn't.

[Interviewer]

Was there a point where you thought, I can't do this anymore?

[Mike]

Yeah, there was a key moment when I was in Cardiff because I wasn't home for a very long time. My mum called me saying, come home this, that. I'm saying, I'll come home later. Later never came. And then I got a phone call from the police asking me where I'm at. I told them, I lied, obviously, and they tracked my phone down and then they came to the place where I was staying. But luckily I left literally three minutes after. that moment I was like, yo, I could have got arrested with so much drugs on me.

[Interviewer]

You left and then three minutes later the police arrived.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

When you look back, why couldn't you step away?

[Mike]

Truly, I just still wanted the money and plus, at the time I was there, I never made as much money as I wanted. So I was like, I'm not leaving here with nothing.

[Interviewer]

Can you talk to me about the day you were caught?

[Mike]

Yeah, I was arrested in Cheshire today. I was caught. It was a sad day. It was a normal day. It was supposed to be my last day as well. I was probably gonna go in, like, a couple hours. The conditions was probably the worst one I've ever seen. There was obviously there was cats in there that stunk, was very dirty.

[Interviewer]

Where did you sleep?

[Mike]

I just slept upstairs on the bed. I didn't really feel comfortable because I never took off any part of my clothes. Like, I just had my shoes and everything. But the bed was somewhat decent. So that's the only place I could really chill, in a sense, when I'm doing all these things. And I really saw how messed up the yard is, the house. I started to question, what am I really doing here? I was sitting down. The house gets raided. I'm hearing police. I'm panicking now I'm upstairs in the master bedroom. Everyone downstairs is getting arrested, all the addicts. I'm sitting upstairs, panicking. I hear them come up the stairs. Obviously, because I accepted my fate. I just threw the package under the dresser and I just sat there. I couldn't really do anything. They just arrested me.

[Interviewer]

What was in the packet?

[Mike]

Dead drugs.

[Interviewer]

Right? Was it Class A's?

[Mike]

Yeah, Class A.

[Interviewer]

Okay, so you were arrested. Were you taken into custody?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

When you were arrested, what did the police officers tell you when you were in the room?

[Mike]

Well, the one that arrested me was the worst one out of all of them. He was moving a bit too aggressive. Even though I was complying, he was kneeling on my chest. But the other ones, they were. They were sound. I wouldn't say understanding, but, yeah, they also did speak to me, saying that the guy that sent you here doesn't like you. Because previously, before me, the same house got raided for the same thing.

[Interviewer]

How did you react to that? Did you think this guy had your back? And then to find out that the police officers are telling you he didn't? What was the effect of that?

[Mike]

At first I was a bit shocked because I thought me and him was kind of close and I thought he was cool. But prior to that, we were chilling on the same area, like the same block. We were smoking together, having a laugh, like we were doing typical things that you would do with your mates. But when he told me that, I really did start questioning literally everything from that day on. Because I was very, very shocked that he never told me previously that this house has been raided. He really did kind of like treat me as another expendable guy just for his own gain.

[Interviewer]

What happened next? Were you charged?

[Mike]

Yeah, I was charged. And the officers as well were moving a bit excited because the one that I said before was moving a bit crazy. He was the one that was excited because he was telling me, you're 18 now. Yep. You can go jail for this.

[Interviewer]

Did the guys who put you in those properties, do they ever explain to you how the law worked or did they ever try and say because of your age you're less likely to get into trouble with the law?

[Mike]

Yeah, precisely, they would say that. They would say that because you're younger, you're less likely to get arrested. And it did happen a few times.

[Interviewer]

What do you mean by that?

[Mike]

In the Coventry, there was people that was younger and they did get arrested and they just got like basically a slap on the wrist pretty much. So he would use that a lot and say them things.

[David Wood]

Okay. Sitting in the cells at the police station, Mike felt the gravity of the situation.

[Mike]

I was just scared.

[Interviewer]

Scared of what?

[Mike]

Going to jail. Because I knew it was a lot of drugs on me. So I was just thinking, yeah, this is my life over with now. I was just deep in, like, would I really be sitting in these cells for a couple of years because of some little action I'd done? That's when I realized that prison cannot be for me.

[David Wood]

He was released on bail and while Mike was waiting to appear in court, there was a knock on his door. At the time, the Home Office funded an anti violence program in his area called Serve and he was assigned a mentor from the charity St Giles Trust. Her name is Nikki.

[Mike]

She did seem nice. She was very understanding. She would give me these little lectures about stuff, my future really and truly and getting away from that lifestyle. She would tell me about how it's not worth it and the consequences of it, talking about, if I don't change, I could end up like here, here, here. At the time, I was half hearted and listened to what she had to say because I was still kind of involved.

[David Wood]

Over time, things began to shift from

[Interviewer]

what it sounds like as well. Having spoken to you, you weren't able to open up to your family at the time, but here's someone working for a project who are here to help you. Did you feel that you could talk or unburden yourself?

[Mike]

Yeah, most definitely. I could actually speak to her about situations that I could never speak about. With my family because she was very, very understanding, setting me up for my future and stuff, which I really did appreciate because no one spoke to me about that previously. I started thinking about what my life would be like if I had a normal job, if I wasn't doing all these things that I did before. Like, I did start to think about the future a lot.

[Interviewer]

Could you see how your mind was changing and the kind of difference it was having?

[Mike]

Yeah, gradually it was happening that I was changing my mind with certain things and how I moved in certain situations.

[Interviewer]

It started to sink in.

[Mike]

Yeah. Realization.

[Interviewer]

You went to court. Can you remember what it was like being in the courtroom?

[Mike]

It was pretty scary because I was in that little glass box, those officers right next to me. In case the judge said I was guilty, I would have went straight to the cells.

[David Wood]

Mike wasn't sent to prison. Instead, he was given over 200 hours community service. And while he did it, despite Nicky's lectures, he was still talking to people from his old life, those involved in dealing. Until something happened.

[Mike]

I was going to the shop and no more than 10 seconds after, I see a car and see over five occupants leave the car. And obviously I already knew what time it was.

[Interviewer]

What time was it?

[Mike]

Like they were on violence because they came out of the car screaming my name. So I tried to run back to my house and then I fell. And then once I fell, I did get stabbed. 2.

[Interviewer]

Do you mind me asking, where were you stabbed?

[Mike]

That's right here.

[Interviewer]

So like in your abdomen?

[Mike]

Yeah, around my side.

[Interviewer]

Do you know why they did it?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Was it because you left that life behind?

[Mike]

It was partly because of that, yeah.

[Interviewer]

How did that make you feel?

[Mike]

I was just filled with rage. I always wanted revenge and I was in a very, very bad mental state for a few months.

[Interviewer]

What stopped you from seeking revenge?

[Mike]

It was the words of wisdom coming from Nikki and serve. It also was like a real realization from like, I got stabbed. Like, wow, this is very deep as well. Do I really want to live the rest of my life fueled by hatred and all these things?

[Interviewer]

What's it been like to rebuild your life?

[Mike]

Pretty hard, in a sense. Transitioning out of that mindset of revenge and all the people I used to be around. And I did lose a lot of so called friends and connections. And they wasn't very happy that I wanted to, like, leave, but I had to kind of see through it and be like, I'm done.

[Interviewer]

At the time, did you think of yourself as a victim?

[Mike]

No, not at all. That would have crossed my mind. One bit at the time, because I thought I was doing what's best for me in the moment. Like, I was getting money, I was doing all the things that I wanted to do, besides all these things I never had before. So I never really thought I was a victim until I got arrested and I could have went to jail.

[Interviewer]

Can you see how these men were able to control you and were you able to see you were being controlled? Was it only with hindsight?

[Mike]

Yeah, that was only with hindsight. To be fair, I never saw it at all. I never even thought about it. I just thought, friends looking after friends. Like, I never really saw it as he's using me for his own games. When you're in that type of lifestyle and doing them type of things, you really don't see things clearly. Like, you don't really see right from wrong, because what. What you're doing now you often think is right, and that's only because of what's around you, the peer pressure, getting the luxurious things. You don't really see the severity of it until it's practically too late.

[Interviewer]

Do you see yourself as a victim of exploitation?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You took a pause before answering that. Do you find it hard to see yourself as a victim?

[Mike]

In a sense, because I always thought that I was my own boss, in a sense. I always thought like, yeah, I'm doing this for myself, for my agenda, no one else's. But in reality, it wasn't for my own benefit. It wasn't for nothing. I was just used for their own benefit instead of my own.

[Interviewer]

We know that there are about at least 6,500 county lines active in the UK. By design, there's going to be at least 6,500 Michaels. Not everybody has the intervention or has a Nicky in their corner who's giving them lectures. Do you ever think about other people who may have met the guy outside the Morleys, or who'd have kind of stopped you as you were walking down the street when you moved to the Midlands? Do you ever think about how they could be affected?

[Mike]

I do think about it, especially because I feel like I find myself quite lucky to have Nikki and Serve to come to me. I can only imagine what people without that type of support are going through now.

[Interviewer]

What do you say to other young people who might listen to this or to their parents who might listen to this and worry that they might be at risk of exploitation or criminal exploitation?

[Mike]

To the parents, I would say, like, definitely create a very strong relationship with your kids, Be really in their lives, their outdoor lives, as well, their friends who they hang around with, obviously. Because if my parents would have known, obviously it's my fault. I know. But if they would have known, maybe it could have been prevented.

[Interviewer]

Do you really believe it's your fault?

[Mike]

A little bit. Because I feel like I don't know what right from wrong is, obviously. But when I was younger, I was a lot more gullible and stuff. But there was a couple instances where I could have said no, but I kind of let peer pressure and stuff take control.

[Interviewer]

What do you want to do with your life? What do you want to do now?

[Mike]

I just want to live a peaceful life. To be fair, I do want to help kids, people who was in my situation. Because when I left it, I did used to talk to my friends about all the things that I did go through. And I did speak to only one person that did stab me. Spoke to him about, like life and stuff, about he should get away from it as well.

[Interviewer]

How was that meeting? I mean, you talked about wanting revenge. How did you control those emotions?

[Mike]

It wasn't face to face, but it was over social media. It was very hard. Like I said, I always wanted revenge. I hated these guys my whole life. Like I really despised of them. But after going through all that, nearly losing my life to getting stabbed and me nearly losing my life to go in jail, it was very eye opening and I didn't really feel no type of way towards him because I know when we're in that lifestyle, it's like you're under a spell. You really don't think straight. And there's really and truly a rabbit hole when it comes to young people doing county lines. I just want people to have more awareness on why they're doing it and how to help them from getting out from doing it.

[David Wood]

Tomorrow, in the final part of our County Line series, we'll hear from politicians and police officers about what they're doing to tackle county lines and how to stop kids like Mike from falling under the spell of criminal gangs. I want to say thank you to Mike, Nicky White and the St. Giles Trust. The producer today was Kate Lamball. The executive producer was Dan Box. Sound design and theme composition were by Maliceto. If you would like to get in touch about this story, you can send us an email@storythe times.com I'm David Wood. Thank you for listening and I'll see you tomorrow.

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