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- [00:15]
A
Hi, it's Manveen. As the fallout from the murder of Henry Novak has grown, we thought we should bring you the latest. So in this extra afternoon episode of the Story, we're handing over to our Times Radio colleague, John Pienaar.
- [00:38]
B
Hello, I'm John Pienaar with Drive on Times Radio. Thanks for joining me. The murder of Henry Novak was appalling. The police response abysmal, crass. And the fallout has ignited a wave of political soul searching, point scoring and recrimination. Police wrongly treated Novak as a racist offender when they at the scene of the attack, coughing his hands while he lay dying on the ground of multiple knife wounds inflicted by his attacker. Vikram Digua, a Sikh now Diguire, has now been jailed for a minimum of 21 years. And the case ranks like the murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence in 1993, which highlighted violent racism and that of the 10 year old gang violence victim Damelo Letedo in 2000 as a case which defines the social challenges of our time. Now the question has become, has fear of being judged racist grown so strong it could blind police officers at a crime scene to the truth of who's the victim and who's the violent offender? So blind that an innocent 18 year old died handcuffed on the ground while his killer lied about being racially abused to escape the consequences? So, earlier on, speaking in the House of Commons, the Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmoud condemned the murder of this 18 year old Henry Novak as an evil act. And she told MPs the murder shouldn't be allowed to drive communities apart from.
- [02:00]
C
Yesterday, the Novak family ended their statement with a powerful call to us all. I quote, we do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. They quoted the words of the prosecuting lawyer. And I quote again, Mr. Speaker, this is not a case about Sikhism. This is not a case about racism. This is a case about murder. I echo those words. We cannot allow this murder to turn communities against one another. We must condemn those who seek personal political profit from tragedy. Instead, we must show who we really are in this country. This was a murder, a vile and violent crime. The punishment must be reserved for those who are responsible for the act. We do not believe in collective punishment in this country. Instead, we stand together against an act of pure evil. We condemn those who committed this heinous crime, not all those who share their faith or their ethnicity.
- [03:02]
B
The Home Secretary responded to calls to tighten the rights of the Sikh community to carry ceremonial knives.
- [03:08]
C
The Offensive weapons Act of 2019, passed under the previous government clarified and strengthened existing legal protections in relation to long Kirpans. This included extending defences so that kirpans can be lawfully possessed for religious reasons and used in religious and ceremonial contexts. But let me be clear, carrying a knife for the purpose of religious observance is one thing. Using it as so tragically occurred in this case is quite another. It is a vile act, a crime of the utmost severity and it will be met with the severest punishment.
- [03:45]
B
Shabana Mahmoud then the Reform Party leader Nigel Farage said that Harry Novak's arrest for alleged racial abuse minutes before he died showed that racism was regarded by the police as more serious than murder.
- [03:57]
D
Within a few days, Keir Starmer was taking the knee. Black Lives Matter exploded all over the country. And yet what has the public reaction been from our leaders and politicians, and indeed, to be frank, much of the media, to this silence, absolute silence. Proof if ever there was any, that we're living in, in a two tier culture in this country where the rights and privileges of white people matter less than those of ethnic minorities.
- [04:28]
B
Nigel Farage, the Tory leader, Kemi Badenok had this to say on ITV's Good Morning Britain.
- [04:34]
E
Something has gone wrong with policing, but we all need to take a good long, hard look at ourselves. It is not just the police. I remember when this movement was happening and I was saying we are creating different rules for different people. All of the people who are taking the knee about a man who died in another country should think about doing the same here. We need to bring back equality under the law. What Nigel Farage is doing is reinforcing the difference. I have said that we need to find what we have in common, not what separates us. I don't want to hear about Black Lives Matter, I don't want to hear about White Lives Matter. We all matter. Enough of this nonsense where we keep separating everybody and splitting people into different groups. We are descending into tribalism.
- [05:15]
B
Kemi Badenok there. So let's first talk to Ollie Wright, the policy editor of the Times. Hi to you, Ollie.
- [05:21]
F
Hello.
- [05:21]
B
So, Ollie, welcome. You've been listening to the, the political debate in the Commons and outside. What's your, your take on how this is flaring up politically?
- [05:29]
F
I mean, I think it's really exposed some of the pretty raw fault lines in politics quite beyond the sort of the circumstances of this dreadful case. You see a very sharp distinction between what Nigel Farage said this morning and Kemi Badenoch's response, the response of the Home Secretary, Shabana Mahmood in the Commons this afternoon. I mean, she was very clear. She said that this is not a moment to pit white Britons against non white Britons. And she also said that there have been a lot of disinformation and inflammatory commentary that have made a dreadful situation worse. And although she didn't directly reference Nigel Farage, I don't think anyone was left in any doubt as to who she was referring to.
- [06:13]
B
Yeah. And dividing lines within dividing lines, we say. And we see Farage and reform seizing on this issue in the way that they have and noticeable the way that Farage was criticized from the Tory side, from the principal party of the right. Yeah.
- [06:27]
F
And I mean, to be fair to Cami Badenoch, she did a lot of work on this when she was in government. She was a qualities minister. And it was very much her sort of long standing view that one of the problems in the way in which racism was dealt with this country was, you know, dividing people. And she thought that all people should be seen as equal. That was very much her view. And I think she's, she has restated that again today in the context of, of this case.
- [06:54]
B
Okay. And reform, clearly undeterred, they, they see themes here they think will resonate with supporters and potential supporters and deliver votes to, to that party. Now, what about change? What's been emerging so far about ideas for change to learn the lessons that can be learned from this, Ollie?
- [07:11]
F
I mean, I think one of the difficulties, particularly for the government is obviously there's this investigation by the Independent Office for Police Conduct and they do not want to be seen to be prejudging that. And I think it's also, you know, it's important. Everyone has seen the sort of horrific images from the police body cam. But the comments of the judge in the case was more nuanced. He said that, you know, he could see reasons for why the officers acted in the way in which he did. He pointed out that you, you know, it was not uncommon for the courts to see cases of people who've been arrested and put in handcuffs, claiming they've been injured to try and, you know, be released. And he said, you know, it doesn't excuse what happened in any way, but it might explain it. And it's obviously going to be the job of the office of Police, Connor, to look at this in, you know, real detail and to try and separate themselves from the sort of, you know, fairly caustic political debate that's happening around it. Many of whom, you know, weren't, almost all of whom weren't sitting through the evidence that the court heard.
- [08:13]
B
Yeah. And how do you weigh up the government's position lastly, Ollie, of course, ministers will be aware, very aware. This is a deeply sensitive issue. It's potentially combustible. And these ministers are treading on eggshells.
- [08:23]
F
They are. And you know, I think there's quite a lot of anger at the way in which Nigel Farage has politicized this. You know, look at in the context of the Makerfield by election where, you know, reform is actually facing a challenge from its right, from the Restore party. And some people think that this is an attempt of Nigel, far as it were, shore up his base on the right as much as anything else. But, you know, clearly it's always very difficult and quite dangerous when politicians jump into a very raw debate and are trying to make that, make political capital of it on any side, frankly.
- [09:12]
A
That was John Pienaar from Times Radio Drive talking to the policy editor at the Times, Oliver Wright. For more from John, you can listen to Drive every weekday at 4pm on Times Radio. We'll be back tomorrow morning looking at why the situation in Lebanon is so crucial to a peace deal between the US And Iran. See you then,
- [10:09]
G
Sam.