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- [00:00]
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- [00:31]
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- [01:10]
John Pienaar
Hi, I'm Edward, a producer on the Story. This morning, the Prime Minister delivered a speech as he tried the latest reset of his leadership after last week's disastrous local election results. In this extra afternoon episode of the Story, we're handing over to our Times Radio colleague John Pienaar for the latest.
- [01:37]
Kelma Failing to salvage his leadership this morning hardly counts as breaking news. The Prime Minister didn't suddenly transform himself into an inspirational leader because he couldn't. Doesn't know how. Not his fault. We're talking about real life, not a Marvel movie. Which gets us to the real question. The same question as before. If the problem for the Labour Party and the Labour government is Keir Starmer, and to a significant extent at least it clearly is, what and who is the solution? Now, those are actually two different questions and as of now, Labour is nowhere near agreeing on either one. But one thing has changed now A widely unknown MP has announced she's gathering the names of MPs who want Starmer gone by September. Catherine West. She's provided a cause the rival supporters of rival potential candidates for leader can get behind. That's if they do. And that's still a big if. It will amount to a vote of confidence in the Prime Minister and Keir Starmer's days could be numbered, well, conceivably within a very few days. Now that would for one thing, allow the bookies favorite, Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham, time to get back into Parliament as an MP and to qualify to run for leader. Though that of course would hardly suit another contender, the health Secretary Wes treating. So could he grab back the initiative? Couldn't quickly declare himself a candidate? There is no sign of that. Not yet. Or of a delegation of senior ministers handing Starmer notice to quit the range of possibilities makes your head spin. Only one thing seems sure, and that's that Keir Starmer's days are numbered. It can't go on like this, can it? What do you think? Send me a text 87 trouble to start with the word times or a tweet to timesradio? Now, if you heard it earlier on there he was, the Prime Minister speaking this morning acknowledge that there are those questioning his future.
- [03:22]
I know that people are frustrated by the state of Britain, frustrated by politics,
- [03:30]
and some people frustrated with me.
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I know I have my doubters and
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I know I need to prove them wrong. And I will. Well, Labour's former deputy leader, a potential leadership challenger, Angela Rayner, has also been speaking today and she is calling for change.
- [03:51]
Angela Rayner
This has not been an easy moment. Our party has suffered historic defeats. Many good Labour colleagues have lost their seats. People who gave everything for their communities that they represented. And it's clear that what we're doing isn't working and it needs to change.
- [04:17]
John Pienaar
And Angela Rayner also backs Andy Burnham to return to Westminster.
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Angela Rayner
We as a party have to do better than this. And we can only prove we mean our Labour values by putting the common interest ahead of factionalism. And we can start by accepting that Andy Burnham should never have been blocked. It was a mistake that the leadership of our party should put right Angela Rayner.
- [04:46]
John Pienaar
And here is Anna Mihailova, our political editor at Times Radio. Hello to you, Anna.
- [04:51]
Anna Mikhailova
Hi, John.
- [04:52]
John Pienaar
Hi. What is your judgment, then, on Keir Starmer's speech and to what extent, if at all, it moved the dial?
- [05:00]
Anna Mikhailova
Well, I think, you know, in the immediate aftermath, it looked like it had done just about enough to keep him in number 10 for the short term. That may well still be the case, John, but the picture is moving so quickly. So we continue to have this trickle of MPs calling for him to go. They are explicitly saying that his speech was not enough. You've already mentioned that Catherine west, while she has stepped down, you know, from the brink of her own leadership challenge, she is now. She has sent a letter to every MP asking for them to say anonymously. And that's the key bit at the moment, that they also want a transition from Keir Starmer and she's actually put some detail in there that she wants a new leader to be in place by September.
- [05:51]
John Pienaar
And how likely, then is that? I know the answer to pretty much all these questions is we have to wait and see, who can tell? But you have to wonder how likely. Labour MPs in different camps supporting different potential contenders for the leadership might coalesce around that suggestion by Catherine west, that call by Catherine west for Starmer to create a vacancy.
- [06:11]
Anna Mikhailova
I mean, on the one hand, you are definitely getting MPs from very different camps coming together around this idea of a transition. And I can very much see them backing her letter. And in some ways, the difference of MP profile is what is putting so much pressure on Keir Starmer. Because, you know, until last week, it was all the usual suspect and they could dismiss that calling for him to go and now with every new name, and there are now well over 50 who have publicly called for him to go. They are from different factions. Some of them are very interesting and they take more people with them. So Chris Curtis, for example, who heads the Labor Growth Group, that is a significant faction within labor. And since he has gone public about an hour ago, a couple of other people from the same group have also called for Starmer to go at the same time. People like Katherine McKinnell, who was until last September a schools minister under Keir Starmer. She has come for him to. Called for him to go. So mps from different factions, on the one hand, that means the pressure is really growing and it's going to increasingly be hard to contain. But on the other hand, and this is when I spoke to number 10 after the speech and about the Catherine west move, they said that she just. Those people, they don't agree on any one person and they don't agree on even the same course of action. So that is why internally in Downing street, some, you know, they don't really see it as an imminent threat, whether or not that's correct. And I think it's all eyes really on those Cabinet ministers that we're not hearing that much from today, and whether any of them will make a public move. I think, you know, we have heard at the end of last week, people saying that the backbenchers need to start this move against Starmer, but the Cabinet then would get cover enough to make a move without soaking their hands in his blood, effectively, which is what they don't want. They don't. No one wants to be holding the knife. But I think with every name that gets added to the list of 50 or so momentum, and it gives them a bit of COVID Is it.
- [08:33]
John Pienaar
Is it even clear whether the Catherine west idea of a new leader by September, that would clear the way for Andy Burnham. I was talking a short while ago to a Welsh labor mp, Ruth Jones, who said she thought it would not. She. She's the problem she argued was it didn't say in September, it said by September and that wasn't enough time. I wonder if that's just too far in the weeds, but is there any clarity on that?
- [08:57]
Anna Mikhailova
So, I mean, Catherine west, this has been extremely confusing because she wrote in her initial letter that it would be in September suggesting, and people thought that meant a contest in September. Then she clarified saying that was a mistake and that she meant by September and that a new leader would be in place for the 1st of September. So obviously for the start of the new parliamentary term and just in time for conference. And you're right, that doesn't give much time for a. For Burnham to come back. But I think the bigger point about Katherine west being linked to Andy Burnham is from, you know, her own media appearances over the weekend, it is quite clear she's keen for a woman leader. And I don't. She has said she doesn't have anyone specific in mind, that she's just very frustrated and she wants the conversation to start and that Keir Starmer, in her eyes, should not be dragging on for. For any longer. But, you know, it doesn't look like that she is directly linked with the Burnham camp and certainly they deny that. Absolutely.
- [10:00]
John Pienaar
All right, Anna Mahonaba, really great to talk to you. Thank you. Now we are joined, I think, live on the line by the. The Housing Secretary in the Cabinet, Steve Reid. How did you. Steve.
- [10:08]
Steve Reed
Hello, John. Good to be with you.
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John Pienaar
Lovely to have you here. Now, we know you to be a loyal supporter of Keir Starmer. We know that you believe it would be madness to. To get rid of him. Well, you really can't in honesty, Steve. Now tell me that the Prime Minister is safe in his job, can you?
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Steve Reed
Well, do you know what I was before coming into work today? I was ironing my shirt and I had the radio on in the background and I wasn't focused too much what was being said, but I could hear chit chat, Prime Minister Stego. And I thought in the back of my head, this sounds just like the Tories when they were at their absolute worst, when they were focused inward, talking to themselves, letting the economy flatline, and they were rewarded with their worst election defeat in their 200 years of history. And I just thought, we cannot be like that. I did hear bits of what Ruth was just saying to you. And I'll tell you what I'm feeling. I'm speaking to my colleague, my fellow MPs. I'm in the WhatsApps with the MPs on where there's a groundswell. Yes, it is. To stop this chit chat about talking to ourselves and navel gazing so that we can get on with the job we were elected to do. In my case, to get more. More homes built. In the case of my colleagues, the various responsibilities that we've all got, we are here to deliver for our constituents and we don't do that by talking to ourselves for months on end.
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John Pienaar
Let me put this to you then, Steve. If that were true, we wouldn't be here having this conversation. You cannot, can you write off all of the evidence of unrest and the growing number of Labour MPs who want to see the Prime Minister gone. Not with personal animosity, but politically, they want to see him gone. You're telling me. Then there's a silent majority of Labour MPs who are solidly behind Keir's thumb. You will forgive me if I'm skeptical about that, won't you?
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Steve Reed
Well, I completely understand that the people that come on broadcast and the shows are the ones who are the most angry and are looking for that kind of change. But there's a lot of quieter voices and I still think the majority of the PLP who are angry that we're out today on the broadcast shows like this one talking not about what we're gonna do for the, but talking about ourselves. Now, just to correct another little point you raised there, we all know there needs to be change. We all saw what happened in the local elections. We've all lost good colleagues and we're very sad and angry about what's been happening. But the answer to that isn't to go into a psychodrama like the Tories were constantly in. It is to focus on how we, as a team can drive faster and further the kind of change this country voted for in July 2020. The government clearly hasn't done enough. We can all accept that what the Prime Minister was saying today was outlining the scale of change needs to be bigger and it needs to be bolder. But we all need to have a conversation with ourselves about how we do that, not how we start doom scrolling through leaders like the Conservatives did.
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John Pienaar
Yeah, I can. I can completely understand. You do not want Labour to follow in the footsteps of the Tory Party, which time and again rose up against the leader. But you also know, and I think anyone sensibly does know, that a silent majority can still be very NOISY. And these MPs who you said solidly behind the Prime Minister are not communicating those views to the many, many, many journalists at Westminster who are gathering opinion every hour of every day. What they are picking up is evidence to the contrary.
- [13:40]
Steve Reed
But I'm Speaking to more MPs than journalists are, to be fair, and I know them better than the journalists do. I've been in politics in the Labour Party a long time and a lot of these people are my friends and we have very, very open conversations. Of course people want to see change. Of course people are angry and frustrated to lose good from councils who were doing a good job. And we know in many cases that was because of what's gone, gone wrong at a national level. But the vast majority of my colleagues don't think that the way to fix that is to doom scroll through prime ministers. If anyone thinks that just having a different person in number 10 is going to stop the attacks will suddenly mean there are quicker and easier answers, it's absolute nonsense. We all have to work together as a team to focus down on getting this right for the British public. In my case, it is about building more council homes. I've just been talking with colleagues about how we can give more rights and power to social housing tenants. I've been speaking to colleagues about how we can tie up services better to protect communities from the kind of things that have gone wrong, the extent of homelessness, people sleeping in shop doorways. That's what I want to focus on. Not who's up, who's down, some kind of cabinet, Top Trumps.
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John Pienaar
Yeah. And again, I completely recognize there are things you'd like to be talking about and things you would rather not be talking about. But sometimes the choice is not yours or even mine to make. We follow the events. I wonder, for example, have you, have you spoken to Wes stressing the Health Secretary to persuade him to stop maneuvering for the leadership? And you know, if you say, you tell us, Steve, that Wes reading has not been angling and maneuvering for the leadership, you will not be believed. Have you spoken, sir?
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Steve Reed
I've spoken to Wes and let me tell you what I spoke to Wes about. I spoke to him about my interests in how we can develop a better way of joining up services at the level of the locality.
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John Pienaar
And you didn't mention this question.
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Steve Reed
His plan for health. His plan for health, which talks about neighborhood access to healthcare, part of reviving our high streets can mean better access to healthcare on the high street. More people coming in, more footfall, more people there to spend money in the local shops. I spoke to Wes about that and I spoke to him about it yesterday. Now, that is what the public are really Interested in. They're not interested in Cabinet top trumps.
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John Pienaar
Yeah, well, this is not necessarily about what the public are interested in. It's about the future leadership of our government in our country. And I suggest to you that Wes Raising's ambitions for the leadership are more than well known. I wonder, have you spoken to Ed Miliband?
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Steve Reed
What about Ed Miliband? All the way through. And Wes is somebody I've known for years as well. Back when he was a US President, back when he was a councillor. Wes has been crystal clear he's not going to challenge. He wants us to focus.
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John Pienaar
But he hasn't said he doesn't want the job.
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Steve Reed
Public as well. I hear people speculating and talking about things he hasn't said. But when I spoke to Wes, we were talking about how we can give people better access to health care on the high streets as part of our plan to revive high streets. That is what the Public Express expect us to be talking about. When I was knocking on doors over the last few weeks, Keir Starmer did not come up very much at all. People wanted to talk about local public services and so do I.
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John Pienaar
People did not want to talk about Keir Starmer throughout that.
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Steve Reed
I got it very few times. I know other people are saying that they had a different experience.
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John Pienaar
Yes, they are.
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Steve Reed
But John, genuinely, I knocked on hundreds and hundreds of doors and his name was not mentioned very much at all. People talk much more about potholes than about the Prime Minister when they were talking to me.
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John Pienaar
Tell me, tell me then about Ed Miliband because he's known. Is he not to have told the Prime Minister, labor needs a change?
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Steve Reed
I've got absolutely no idea. Ed's never said that to me. And when it was reported, as I understand it, Ed said it hadn't happened. So you'd need, you'd need to ask Ed. But there's an awful lot of rumor and speculation going around at the moment that I think is a complete and utter distraction from our real job, which is bringing about the change the British public voted for.
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John Pienaar
Can you.
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Steve Reed
I'm not going to feed it.
- [17:32]
John Pienaar
Okay. No. Again, your position is, is clear and you're making it. If it wasn't clear already, you're making it very clear indeed. What chance do you give then? What chance do you give the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, to lead Labour at the next election?
- [17:45]
Steve Reed
Well, I think he will lead Labour at the next election. We're not even two years through a five year Parliament. You cannot judge the outcome of five years after less than two. We are making change. We're not telling people enough about the change that we're making and that change hasn't been big enough yet. The prime minister was clear about that. The status quo is not acceptable. We needed to make a bigger offer than we realize in the 2024 general election. And today he started to talk about that, about steel, about Europe, about young people. There was a very interesting other line or two he had in there about pride in place, about giving people more power in their own communities. I'm going to be fleshing that out over the coming weeks because there was a big agenda there about why our towns, so many of them, look so derelict and broken and run down, how we can bring better services to those communities, how we can allow innovation and entrepreneurship to thrive in those commun and how we can give people more power. That is what the Prime Minister spoke or pointed to today and all of us in Cabot are going to be building on the foundations that he laid in that speech this morning.
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John Pienaar
Steve Reed, good to have you on. Thank you.
- [19:02]
That was John Pienaar from Times Radio Drive chatting with Times Radio political Editor Anna Mikhailova and Housing Secretary Steve Reed. For more from John you can listen to Drive every weekday at 4pm on Times Radio. We'll be back tomorrow morning with Louise Callahan, who's been looking into why Americans are turning away from big Food. See you then.
- [19:33]
Sa.
- [21:05]
Brookfield Advertiser
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- [21:36]
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