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- [00:02]
Manveen Rana
From the Times and the Sunday Times, this is the story. I'm Manveen Rana.
- [00:11]
Pete Hegseth
I liken Iran's predicament to a football team who scripted the first 20 plays
- [00:16]
Manveen Rana
of a game for Americans. This is becoming the soundtrack to the war in Iran.
- [00:22]
Pete Hegseth
The team knew what plays to run because their first few drives were scripted. But now that the game has started and the blitz is on, they don't know what plays to call a military
- [00:34]
Manveen Rana
briefing delivered in the style of a high school football coach giving a pep talk at halftime, let alone how to
- [00:41]
Pete Hegseth
get in the huddle and call those plays. Iran's senior leaders are dead. The so called governing council that might have selected a successor. Dead, missing or cowering in bunkers, too terrified to even occupy the same room
- [00:57]
Manveen Rana
as bombs rained down on Tehran. The Pete Hegseth, the United States Secretary of War has become the brash, boastful, belligerent voice of the conflict.
- [01:09]
Pete Hegseth
The Iranian navy rests at the bottom of the Persian Gulf. Combat ineffective, decimated, destroyed, defeated. Pick your adjective.
- [01:19]
Manveen Rana
While other members of the administration are running for cover as President Trump embarks on what could become the sort of forever war that he campaigned against, the former Fox News host Pete Hegseth, and has emerged as the wall's loudest cheerleader.
- [01:34]
Donald Trump
I called Pete, I called General Kane, I called a lot of our great people. We have great people and I said, let's talk. We got a problem in the Middle East. We have a country known as Iran that for 47 years has been just a purveyor of terror and they're very close to having a nuclear weapon. And Pete, I think you were the first one to speak up and you said, let's do it.
- [02:04]
Manveen Rana
So what do we know about the much tattooed secretary of war? How much is he shaping the conflict in the Middle East? And could his newfound prominence set him up for his own run at the presidency? Or will he become the fall guy if the war in Iran fails? The story today, Pete Hegseth, the secretary reveling in war.
- [02:46]
Katie Balls
So Pete Hegseth is Donald Trump's secretary of War and he's a well known face because he is often asked to stand by the president's side.
- [02:54]
Manveen Rana
That's Katie Balls, Washington editor and columnist for the Times and the Sunday Times. She's been monitoring movements for us in
- [03:01]
Katie Balls
D.C. but he's also a fairly enigmatic figure because he's not massively out on the D.C. social scene. He also has up until very recently had a limited profile within the Pentagon. One of the things he has done is to change the rules around reporting in the Pentagon, which saw lots of what MAGA would call the legacy media, but would call more mainstream, traditional publications, decide that they couldn't report on the Pentagon, and instead there's a new press corps which tend to involve MAGA influences and, you know, independent journalists who tend to be more friendly to the, to the administration than what came before. In the time before that, he gave very, very few Pentagon briefings himself, but since the war has begun, he has been giving them all the time. And I think also because he has a reputation in the past for being a bit of a party guy going out, which came up when he was being confirmed as Defense Secretary. He is not seen as someone who is particularly on the social scene in D.C. in the way that I think some members of the Cabinet, such as Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, are much more out and about. He instead posts a lot about his wife, who he is, you know, says as his soulmate and so forth, and therefore it's work and home.
- [04:21]
Interviewer/Host
He has been one of the loudest voices coming out of D.C. in the last few weeks, you know, as you say, often by the President's side at a time when people like the vice president, J.D. vance, don't seem to be very visible. Is he one of the key figures in shaping this wall?
- [04:37]
Katie Balls
I think Pete Hegseth is one of the key figures, and part of that is design. I mean, ultimately, if you are in charge of the Pentagon, he's obviously now is the Department of War, not the Department of Defense, since it was renamed by the White House. But it just means in a conflict like this, you're going to be one of the key figures. But I think what perhaps some didn't quite expect is how much of a public face he would be, because he has done plenty of media rounds. But in terms of these regular Pentagon press briefings, they've been few and far between. And instead, we now get almost daily addresses from the Secretary of War. They are quite distinctive.
- [05:11]
Pete Hegseth
The air campaign that we've conducted, that Israel's conducted alongside us, was one for the history books, truly. And it's because we have a President of the United States that when he sends his war fighters out to fight, he unties their hands to actually go out and close with and destroy the enemy as viciously as possible from moment one. And that's why we see ourselves as part of this negotiation as well. We negotiate with bombs.
- [05:34]
Katie Balls
And therefore, he is really one of the figures when it comes to Donald Trump trying to sell this war to the public who has stepped forward. And Marco Ruby has also been visible. But I think Pete Hegseth is more visible than he normally has been in types of things like this. And as you say, such as J.D. vance have done some media, but the vice president is normally out and about a lot. So I think it's been notable that he has been doing less than normal and Pete Hegsliff has been doing more
- [06:02]
Manveen Rana
than normal in terms of those daily, you know, nearly locker room talks that you described.
- [06:07]
Interviewer/Host
The briefings, does this feel like a coordinated war effort? Because there have been moments where it feels like perhaps Pete Hegseth's briefings are slightly different to the ones coming out of the White House. Are they in lockstep?
- [06:18]
Katie Balls
I think the aim to be in lockstead. I think there is a complication even for the most loyal foot soldier. And I'd say Pete Heiseff is pretty loyal to the president, which is the president says lots of different things in a day. And so you just have an occupational risk of saying something and then the president has changed his mind or gone in a different tack. But I think that Pete Hesketh is fairly consistent and is trying to be on message. And he is also in the place where lots of people have complained that this war does not have a clear end goal. They haven't laid it out when it comes to what the right strategy is. They've been caught unaware. But there's also a lot of agreement that militarily this operation has been successful in many ways. And when it comes to sending Iran back, when it comes to, you know, the strikes they've done and so forth, which has meant that's the easier thing for Pete Hauser to sell. And I also think he is very much, you know, a military mitre's right, you know, peaceful strength, as the White House had to say. But like Trump, he is not talking about going after the Iranians for moralistic reasons. He rarely says, you know, we're doing this for the good of the people. Even if Trump occasionally talks about regime change, instead, it's much more, you know, we America is strong and we're doing this for American people. And talking again about, you know, we're going to crush our enemies and so forth, rather than a more, we are a great actor in the world making all these other countries more like us.
- [07:48]
Interviewer/Host
So this is not a neocon adventure. This is not about trying to turn the rest of the world into a democracy. To understand how he became such a key figure in the Trump administration, take us back Tell us a bit about his background. Who is Pete Hegseth?
- [08:03]
Katie Balls
So Pete Hegseth studied politics at Princeton University. I think he's been a conservative throughout his life. He served in the army, he served in Afghanistan and Iraq. And when he returned, he had various jobs. But one of the things he did was he appeared on Fox News quite a lot, initially as a guest, often talking about defense in the military, and later as a host.
- [08:26]
Pete Hegseth
A far more sinister and dangerous effort is underway right under our noses right now at the Pentagon. Something I know a little bit about. I've been in the military for the better part of two decades. I was in the Army National Guard until last month. This is not just the woke military stuff you've been hearing about. This is worse. This is way worse. This, my friends, is a purge. A purge of the Defense Department led by a new and now powerful radical leftist.
- [08:57]
Katie Balls
We understand in Trump's first term he would watch Pete Hegsliffe on Fox News. We know he likes to watch Fox News. And sometimes he would refer to things that he had said. I also think that Trump cares about how his Cabinet looks. He is almost like casting central. You think back to the Apprentice and things, and I think Pete Hegseth looks to him almost like, you know, an action Ken military guy who should be in charge of the military. And also I think when it comes to interventionism and foreign wars, he hasn't always been nice about Donald Trump. I think he criticized Donald Trump in the past, sometimes on comments he made on foreign interventions. But Pete Hegsef himself has been on a journey, having been deployed and then actually questioning whether you start off thinking America's doing the right thing, getting involved in these conflicts, and then you realize it's more complicated. And therefore, I think he is more the mega view of not pure isolationism, but certainly an end to this nation building mission.
- [09:59]
Interviewer/Host
So he's been on a political journey, become much more, well, obviously much more pro Trump. But that was a change, a shift for him. Tell us a bit about his worldview. I mean, he's got, it's not often
- [10:11]
Manveen Rana
we talk about this when we talk about Cabinet secretaries, but he's got some interesting tattoos.
- [10:15]
Katie Balls
He has various body art. He has a Jerusalem cross on his chest. His ink made headlines in 2021. He was one of several National Guard members that were ordered to stand down from Joe Biden's inauguration. And he said this was due to his tattoo. And Richard saw the Biden administration deem him an extremist, which meant that he was asked to, you know, make other plans. He also has other tattoos which go along with this idea of crusading rhetoric. And he also has a tattoo which says we the people. So a lot of it is about the US and military, patriotism and also his faith as a Christian.
- [10:58]
Interviewer/Host
There were some controversies when he was first put forward as Donald Trump's pick for the Secretary of Defense, as it was called at the time. Just remind us of them.
- [11:08]
Katie Balls
He received criticism on a few different levels when he was being put forward. He was definitely one of the more controversial picks when it came to Donald Trump's second term cabinet. And Trump had to extend some political capital getting him over the line to be confirmed. The criticism ran in a few different directions. I think the most just basic when it came to doing the job was did he have enough experience to manage a team and to manage a huge department? If you look at his cv. So you had some old army type saying, this is not a conventional pick for this role. You then had questions about his lifestyle. So there are reports about him drinking too much. I think there's one particular report, and he refuted many of these, which said that at one breakfast meeting he'd ordered free gin and tonics. You had some Fox former colleagues saying they often felt that he was either hungover or had been drinking. And he did say that if he got the role, he wouldn't drink while he had the role. As a response to some of this. And. And then the other big issue was regarding women. You know, I think you had Megyn Kelly used to be on Fox and now as an independent journalist of her own following online, saying that she didn't think he'd acted inappropriately, but also said he wasn't marriage material in her books. But others were saying, I think his mother. There's a letter his mother had written that came up in which she said he treated women badly. And this came up and was used against him. She later said that he was a changed man. He had, you know, become a man of God. And she can now say that she was, you know, proud of her son and the he'd been on. But various incidents, allegations in the past in terms of acting inappropriate woman did come up as a question of whether he was suitable for the role.
- [12:46]
Interviewer questioning Senator
I want to return to the incident that you referenced a minute ago that occurred in Monterey, California in October 2017. At that time, you were still married to your second wife, correct?
- [12:56]
Pete Hegseth
I believe so.
- [12:57]
Interviewer questioning Senator
And you had just fathered a child by a woman who would later become your third wife, correct, Senator?
- [13:03]
Pete Hegseth
I was Falsely charged, fully investigated, and completely cleared.
- [13:08]
Interviewer questioning Senator
So you think you are completely cleared because you committed no crime. That's your definition of cleared. You had just fathered a child two months before by a woman that was not your wife. How is that a complete clear Senator?
- [13:20]
Pete Hegseth
Her child's name is Gwendolyn Hope Hegseth, and she's a child of God, and she's seven years old.
- [13:26]
Interviewer questioning Senator
And she was. And you cheated on the mother of that child less than two months after that daughter was born, didn't you?
- [13:33]
Pete Hegseth
Those were false charges, fully investigated, and I was completely cleared. And I am so grateful.
- [13:39]
Interviewer/Host
And then when he became the Secretary of Defense, as it was called back then, the controversies didn't end there. Just remind us of that moment with the signal leak.
- [13:48]
Katie Balls
This was early on to Trump's first year, and this was called Signalgate. It was a group on Signal, the encrypted messaging app, talking about highly sensitive information about strikes on the Houthis. And in this conversation, you had, you know, J.D. vance, you had Pete Hegseth, you had Mike Waltz, at the time National Security Advisor, since moved to be ambassador at the UN and various figures all talking about these strikes. Also in the group, unbeknownst to them was a senior journalist, the editor of the Atlantic.
- [14:19]
Journalist/Editor of the Atlantic
I mean, I'm getting on my phone, sitting in a supermarket parking lot, a plan from the Secretary of Defense about an attack that's coming up in two hours.
- [14:30]
Katie Balls
And they later wrote about this, and it caused high embarrassment to everyone involved.
- [14:35]
Journalist/Editor of the Atlantic
And I don't know who else is on the signal chat. I mean, that's actually extremely dangerous to say that American warplanes are launching in 30 minutes to attack Houthi targets in Yemen. There's only so many Houthi targets in Yemen. If that information had fallen to the wrong hands, American pilots would be in even more danger than they are simply by participating in an attack on an enemy with anti aircraft capabilities.
- [15:00]
Katie Balls
Mike Waltz was later moved to a different job. Pete Hegsliff also received a lot of criticism and it led to other allegations that he was, you know, was he using the right formal channels, generally speaking, to be discussing sensitive things like strikes? And there are other stories about him using signal. There were questions about what his wife was being added to. And around this time, he also had, you know, various leaks in the Pentagon and some of his staff leaving a lot of change. And I think there was a feeling that the Pentagon was becoming the troubled child when it came to how the various secretaries were faring, getting a grip on their departments.
- [15:37]
Interviewer/Host
And as you say, a scandal like that, you might have expected resignations over. He carried on in his department, even though it was quite troubled. And he sort of almost seemed to double down on bringing about cultural change.
- [15:49]
Manveen Rana
You mentioned the change in how reporting
- [15:53]
Interviewer/Host
happens at the Pentagon. Just tell us about some of the other changes he's instigated.
- [15:56]
Katie Balls
Pete Hegseth has been looking for a cultural shift, and there's been a wider move in the White House to ndi. So diversity, inclusion, that whole agenda they've been cracking down on. And one of the ways that has manifested in terms of the Pentagon, in terms of the Department of War, is rating against trans women in the Army. He's also spoken about how women, it doesn't seem right for them to be in combat roles. I think he has a line which is, you know, they're about giving life, not taking life. And then also the change in name, of course. But I think there is that tension between the new guard and the old guard. And we have had a lot of departures in the Pentagon. So some of those have been Pete Hegser firing individuals. So you had General Cruz, head of the Defense Intelligence Agency. You had various Navy commanders, too. But then you also have had some choosing to go. So you've had a bit of an exodus, which is a combination of the ones that they are skeptical of being pushed out out than others, saying that this is no longer quite the place where they want to be. And it does mean with things such as the Iranian attack. There is a suggestion that sometimes those who are being pushed out are those who are saying things that the secretary does not agree with. And therefore, is there much in the way of dissenting voices? The response to this, the White, of course, is they all need to be on the same team and so forth. But certainly a lot of the old guard and those who have institutional knowledge for a long time have left the building.
- [17:35]
Manveen Rana
Coming up with his newfound prominence, could this war be the making of Pete Hegseth, or is he being set up to be the fall guy when it all goes wrong?
- [18:01]
Interviewer/Host
Katie, you were describing some of the cultural changes that Pete Hegseth has introduced at the Pentagon. He changed the name from the Department of Defense to the Department of War, which he seems to have taken almost as a mission statement.
- [18:13]
Manveen Rana
I mean, just talk us through some
- [18:14]
Interviewer/Host
of the interventions we've seen under his whilst he's been in office.
- [18:19]
Katie Balls
We've had Operation Midnight Hammer, and that was ultimately the initial attack on Iran last year, which we were told obliterated nuclear capabilities. But Obviously, we're now in a rather different situation and where the US has decided they need to go back and more strikes on Iran. You've also had a key aspect of a focus on the Western Hemisphere and that has seen cracking down on drug trafficking, the drug trade in lots of these countries in the Americas. And so you will see these boats being struck. And we've seen that for some time. And then that obviously built up to a situation where you had Maduro being seized, you know, over the New year, and that is now, you know, in a court in America. So an operation in Venezuela, but in advance of that, this fight against the cartels and with a lot of this, but particularly some of the initial strikes on these vessels, like, what is the legal justification? Is this within international law? Is this within US Law? Is this a war? Are you going after civilians? And there's been some pushback on that. But it all fits into the sense of a very aggressive military approach. And one where Pete Hegseth, along with Marco Rubio, I think, is really key, particularly on Venezuela and the Western hemisphere, saying that our backyard we have to take care of, that's a threat to American security, homeland security, and therefore we take action these ways. And some of these projects have been across lots of departments. So, for example, on Venezuela, on the cartel, Stephen Miller, the Deputy Chief of Staff in the White House, plays a really key role. Hegserv's department is, of course, an aspect in all of this.
- [20:00]
Interviewer/Host
And obviously now there's war raging across the Middle east too. Is there a sense that, you know, are these projects that Donald Trump decides on and outsources to Pete Hegseth to run the war, or how much is he shaping the decision making that gets America into these interventions?
- [20:17]
Katie Balls
There's an interesting question as to how much is Pete Hegs role strategic and how much is it decorational, or is he the PR guy? And I think that you hear mix things here. There is definitely almost the caricature version of Pete Hegsethe has just been hired because he looks how a Secretary of War should look in Trump's mind. And he's going out there and he's giving the pep talks and he's talking about crushing the enemy. He's using football analogies about halftime and runs talk about the Iranian regime. It's all, you know, very American in some ways, but there is a candidate to that. So, for example, John Healey, the UK Defence Secretary, he has struck up quite a good working relationship with Hegseth, and often he and his team paint A picture of this, this man not as a lightweight who doesn't quite know what he's doing. Instead, they say that he's thoughtful and has been helpful and effective on things like Aukus, the Defense Agreement, Australia, the UK and the US and keeping that on track.
- [21:19]
Pete Hegseth
Well, good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to the Pentagon. Richard. John, thank you so much. I can't count how many meetings we've had at this point, and I say that only out of goodness, because the strength of our alliances, our bilateral relationships, trilateral relationships, are as strong as they've ever been.
- [21:37]
John Healey
Pete, thank you in particular for welcoming us to the Pentagon, bringing us together in this way here in Washington. But thank you also for the spirit of cooperation which guided your department's work during their recent review of Aukus for the UK Aukus is quite simply the most important military collaboration for the last 70 years.
- [22:00]
Katie Balls
Hagseif does have a role behind the scenes which is effective, but I think the actual question is, who decides that you're going to strike Iran and who decides when the US Pulls out? I think there's only one man, and no amount of jockeying or clever positioning from anyone in the Cabinet is going to change that. It is Donald Trump who decides.
- [22:23]
Interviewer/Host
At the start of this administration, there was obviously a lot of focus on Ukraine and then Gaza. It seemed like at the time, Pete Hegseth was relegated to the background. You know, you would hear people like J.D.
- [22:33]
Katie Balls
vance much more.
- [22:35]
Manveen Rana
He has clearly emerged as a much
- [22:37]
Interviewer/Host
more influential person in this particular war.
- [22:40]
Manveen Rana
Tell us, what do we know about
- [22:41]
Interviewer/Host
the relationship between Hegseth and Vance?
- [22:43]
Manveen Rana
I mean, are there potential rivals?
- [22:45]
Interviewer/Host
Are they allies?
- [22:46]
Katie Balls
There's nothing to suggest that they're rivals. And I think that here, back to that Signalgate conversation, it was interesting because it showed us how they all communicate with one another. You know, when they think the cameras are off and there's not a journalist secretly on their group who they have added. And in those conversations, Vance was saying it was frustrating that the US Would have to get involved when it came to the Houthis and clearing the strait because of shipping, because he was talking about Europeans almost as free, saying, we don't want to have to bail them out again. And there was general agreement on the thread. I think Hegsev was among those to say, yes, it's frustrating. So I think they're all vaguely in the same place, but within their roles, there was a feeling that they did have to do something and they came to a decision on it.
- [23:31]
Interviewer/Host
Could the success or failure of the Iran war decide which of them ends up running for president in 2028?
- [23:38]
Katie Balls
I think at the moment, Pete Hegsef is rarely spoken of as a future candidate. Now, of course, there's plenty of time. Lots of people have ambitions. And so it's much more seen through the prism of J.D. vance and Marco Rubio, the secretary of state, as to, you know, if Iran goes one way or another, it could tilt it in favor more of JD Vance, who we know has been skeptical and has said very little, or Marco Rubio, who is seen as much more an actor of the president's will. Now, Pete Joseph could have a role in that, but I think instead it's much more about his own immediate prospects, which is if you become the face of Trump's war and you're the man going out and selling it every day, how you are seen, how you are in continuing your job, how you know where your stock is in terms of both the White House and the American people does depend on how this all plays out. And particularly when it comes to potential deployment of troops, something which we know there are troops being sent to the Middle east region if you do suddenly have boots on the ground. And that is going to be a point where there's a lot of responsibility and pressure on Pete Hegseth's shoulders.
- [24:45]
Interviewer/Host
And Katie, we know that Pete Hegseth had said his approach, his strategy for
- [24:48]
Manveen Rana
defense was no more forever wars, nation building fantasies, trillion dollar sandboxes. As you say, there are now troops
- [24:56]
Interviewer/Host
on their way to the Middle East. Is he, you know, being set up as a character who's talking about the war every day? Is he sort of a new favorite for the White House or is he being set up as a potential fall
- [25:07]
Manveen Rana
guy if this all goes horribly wrong?
- [25:09]
Katie Balls
Well, I think you can be both. It just depends how it plays out. And I think he's certainly, for now, being appreciated by the White House as a member of the team who, despite having, as you say, reservations over foreign interventions, has spoken about that in the past, is going out and batting for the government, for the administration every day. And they will be appreciating that. It's obviously high risk because if you say the wrong thing or if you make a mistake in those briefings, you cause the White House a headache, then they're going to notice it. And therefore it has the space to go in each direction. But I think the Iran war is forcing lots of figures in the MAGA movement and Trump's administration to contort themselves to slightly uncomfortable positions right now. And how uncomfortable it gets really comes to, are we heading to a point of escalation, or are we getting to that more tidy end that Trump has spoken about on that four to six week conflict? And that's going to decide, I think, the fortunes of the administration, particularly when it comes to the midterms in November, but also the fortunes of members of his team who are out there talking about it.
- [26:33]
Interviewer/Host
That was Katie Balls, Washington editor and
- [26:36]
Manveen Rana
columnist at the Times and the Sunday Times. The producers today were Harry Stott and Michaela Arneson. The executive producer was Taryn Siegel. Sound design and theme composition were by Malicetto. If you can do leave us a
- [26:49]
Interviewer/Host
review wherever you get your podcasts.
- [26:51]
Manveen Rana
And if you want strong us a question about this or any other story, do send us an email to thestoryatthetimes.com thanks for listening.
- [27:00]
Interviewer/Host
See you tomorrow.
- [27:18]
I
Sam.