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- [00:01]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
From globalization to innovation sustainability to market volatility, there's always more than one side to a story. Explore different perspectives on today's most important
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Robert Watts
business and economic issues with the Flipside
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Podcast Host / Advertiser
podcast from Barclays Investment Bank. Hear two research analysts in a lively debate and get insights from every angle
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Robert Watts
to further inform your view. Listen to the Flipside on your favorite
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Manveen Rama
from the Times and the Sunday Times, this is the story on Sunday. I'm Manveen Rama. For Robert Watts who compiles the Sunday Times Rich list. There was one phone call, the 15 billion pound phone call as he calls it, that brought what's happening to the super rich in this country into into sharp focus.
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Robert Watts
Lakshmi Mittal topped the Sunday Times Rich List for eight years more than anyone else. Indian born metal baron who moved to the UK in the mid-90s and became sort of almost symbolic of the global super rich coming to London. The phone rings and it's someone sitting in an office in Berkeley Square, Mayfair who's very close to him and was able to confirm that he's not a British citizen and has never been. I was advised that he had joined this exodus of wealthy people leaving the UK after more than 30 years here and moved to Switzerland and bought up a big chunk of Dubai as well. As a result, Lakshmi mittal and his £15 billion plus we wealth drops out of the Sunday Times Rich List.
- [02:23]
Manveen Rama
And he's not the only one. Among the fascinating revelations from this Rich list, from the net worth of the Beckhams to the Gallaghers this year, one clear picture is emerging. The super rich are leaving Britain and fast.
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Robert Watts
You get this silly pattern of stories over the last two years. So and so's off to Dubai, so and so's off to Switzerland and it kind of washes over you. No one has really sort of put it together I suppose. The Sunday Times richly will be the first time we start to get a
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Manveen Rama
complete picture and we have. It's pretty bleak.
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Robert Watts
30% of the total wealth on the Sunday Times Rich list this year is controlled by British citizens who don't live here anymore. There are big issues about that.
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Manveen Rama
So what are those issues? Why are the super rich leaving the UK and why should we care? The story today, the Sunday Times rich list and Britain's billionaire exodus.
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Robert Watts
I'm Robert Watts, I'm a compiler of the Sunday Times Rich List.
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Manveen Rama
Give us a sense of the history, the pedigree of the Sunday Times Rich list and what it does.
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Robert Watts
We've been doing this for 38 years. I've only been doing it for 10 years and my predecessor Philip Beresford did this for 28 years. We do it for a number of reasons. I think an important part of a democracy is knowing where wealth lies and where it's being accumulated. Sunday Times Richard, has become something of an important social document. It's told us quite a lot about ourselves, about our country. But we know also that not everyone on the list is an inspiring hero of self made wealth. But many of these people are. And we know our readers like these stories about people who've started often from very humble backgrounds, had tough times at school, perhaps been expelled, and then in their 20s, 30s, even later, sometimes started a business, worked hard, remortgaged for a house, possibly gone for it anyway, had the guts and gumptions to start a business, work hard, do well 10, 20 years later, find themselves on the richest. We know our readers like those self made stories.
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Manveen Rama
Rob, just give us a sense of this year's rich list. Who are the movers and shakers? Who's gone up, who's come down, who's at the top?
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Robert Watts
The Hinduja family topped the Sunday Times Rich list again. But there is a change. Gopi Hinduja, who was at the top of the list for many years running this great Indian conglomerate with interests that span everything from car manufacturing and insurance to banking and luxury hotels, best known in the UK for redeveloping the old War office on Whitehall into a beautiful luxury hotel. Gopi sadly died in November last year and his place at the top of richlist has been inherited by Sanjay and Dhiraj, his two sons. If I was to pick, in terms of people doing well, the person whose wealth has increased the most in a single year, in fact the number one, number two, both born in Moscow five years apart, both under 50, a guy called Nick Staronsky, the man behind Revolut, the payments firm. If you look at the increase of his wealth, if you averaged it over the year, it works out an increase of nearly £26 million a day, purely made possible by this huge valuation that Revolut has attracted now and then similar, another former Russian. It's important to say both these people have not only condemned the war in Ukraine, but have renounced their Russian citizenship. Both British nationals now. Alex Go a mathematician and master trader. He's had a pretty good year as well. I think that average growth for him and his wealth, if you work it out a day, is something like just under 20 million. So he's doing okay too.
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Manveen Rama
Just under 20 million. There are some familiar names on the list too. I mean, tell us about the Beckhams.
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Robert Watts
That's an extraordinary story, really. David and Victoria Beckham made their debut on the Sunday Times witchlist back in 2002. They joined the ranks of Britain's billionaires this year. David really is, to our mind, Britain's first billionaire sportsman. They're people who've become billionaires off the back of sport. But it's not down to his wages from his Man United days at all. The brilliance of Beckham and the team he's built around him has been what he's done with Inter Miami. You know, buying this option to set up that team for $25 million years ago. That stake in that club is now worth £300 million. But the bigger aspect is actually the property on the side of it. They built this fantastic new stadium for Inter Miami and a big property development on the side of it. Hotels, homes, offices, restaurants. And that is incredibly valuable and has been little clocked until now. So it's a big rise in his wealth this year, north of 500 million. And a large part of that is almost all of that is accounted for by what's happening in Miami.
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Manveen Rama
And tell us about the newbies. There are some new entrants to the list this year.
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Robert Watts
Yes, and some very interesting names, some that will be very familiar, some perhaps not. So Christopher Harborne, the crypto billionaire best known to a UK audience for fun funding, Nigel Farage and reform to the tune of £17 million that we know about. A very difficult figure for a lot of us to understand and capture. He's been based in Thailand for many, many years, at least 20 years. We have new information about the businesses that he owns that have been largely unnoticed so far. There's a private jet company, there's a payments firm based in London. There's a big stake in Kinetic, which is a defense contractor based in Hampsh. But the biggest part is this crypto company called Tether. We value more conservatively than most, but that accounts for lion's share of his weight through it. 18 billion pound plus fortune. So if you are skeptical as to whether Mr. Harbaugh can throw a few more millions at reform, there's more to come. If he chooses to do so.
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Manveen Rama
On a smaller scale, there are a few other familiar names.
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Robert Watts
Yeah, the Gallagher brothers finally make it onto the Sunday Times rich list, largely to do with that run of 40 odd constants. Last year they took £400 million at the box office. They were actually got as big a cut from those box office sales. Ramped people felt by Ticketmaster their cut of that won't have been as big as you might think. The real value of those gigs is boosting up the value of the back catalog. And we know that music back catalogs are worth an enormous amount of money. Queen sold their back catalogue less than two years ago for £1 billion. And on the strength of that, Sir Brian May and Roger Taylor pop up in the rich sister game this year. But for Noel and Liam, that tour was an opportunity to get his back catalogue up Spotify rankings again, introduce their music to a new generation and augment the value of that back catalogue. So that Oasis back catalog, we estimate it has a value of £250 million now, which is up on what Noel said several years ago. He was speaking in terms of a value of £200 million. But the world has somewhat moved on now and these things are more valuable now. So yes, they make an interesting new
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Manveen Rama
entry for us and music seems to do very well. We've got Emily Evis too.
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Robert Watts
Yes. Are you sore about how much you paid to get into Glastonbury? Yeah, I mean, very interesting that, because what is a business like Glastonbury actually worth? Know, I'm not talking about the farmland, I'm not talking about the farm buildings, we're talking about the business itself. And external experts have valued the Glastonbury business, the brand, at £400 million. So we've, we went for a little bit more conservative than that, but that seems plausible to us. Yes.
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Manveen Rama
There's so many interesting stories and the people who've made it to the list this year and I hope people will go through it at length. There's so much to pore over. What are the biggest takeaways for you though? What's the bigger story behind the list this year?
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Robert Watts
I think this is a story of two exoduses, departures of the global super rich. These people who've come to the UK for many, many years. Our politicians rolled out the red carpet with attractive visas and flagged up the benefits of non dom status. Many of Those people are now going. As a result, they drop out of the rich list. And then there's the second exodus, which is in some ways more concerning. That is the sort of homegrown British entrepreneurial talent who are leaving the UK for Dubai, for Switzerland, for Monaco, for the Channel Islands. I think that's more concerning for a number of reasons. Partly people make the point that, yes, but where will these people create their businesses and create their jobs? Will they create them there or back in the uk? And if you care about the state of the public finances, it's a lot easier to tax people if they're here, if they're elsewhere, if they're non resident. What can you draw from them? Let me give you a very, very simple example. John Jakes is a Yorkshireman who did fantastically well from a stairlift business he set up almost by accident. He's based in Monaco now. And Mr. Jakes pays himself large dividends from his company each year to the tune of £50 million a year. Round about that. Now, if he was there in Yorkshire and fully resident for UK tax, each of those payments would be liable for tax, at best part of 40%. That would be money that would be flowing into the Treasury. He's based in Monaco. Any tax that he pays on those dividends is not paid here. The amount of tax contributed by the very rich, roughly 30% of the income tax receipts in the UK is generated by the top 1% of earners. A lot of that top 1%, they pay their tax in dividends. And losing that money, one would think would be pretty seismic for the treasury over the longer term.
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Manveen Rama
Rob, just give us a sense of the scale of the exodus in monetary terms. What sort of sums are we looking at?
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Robert Watts
I got to 16 billionaires from overseas. So the global super rich who'd been rich list regulars, people like Lakshmi Mitta, John Fredrickson, Christian anger mayor who aren't British, who've left the country in the last year that had combined wealth of about £70 billion, I found 111 people in our main 350 who are not living here anymore. I found almost a third of the total rich list wealth this year. So £784 billion, almost a third of that is controlled by people, British people who do not live here anymore.
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Manveen Rama
That's remarkable. And having spoken to some of these people, you know, as you say, you've divided it into two different reasons for an exodus. Talk us through them. From the people like Lakshmi Mittal, Sean Fredrickson, what do they tell you about why They've left.
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Robert Watts
So with the global superinch, it's one thing really and one thing alone, it's non dom. This removal of non dom status.
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Manveen Rama
Just remind us what non dom status was.
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Robert Watts
So non dom status was a centuries old loophole, some would call it. You could claim this status and you would live here and you would pay tax on your UK earnings, your UK capital gains and if you died, your UK assets would be liable for UK inheritance tax, but your global assets would be exempt from the UK tax system. I remember talking to people at the treasury two years ago when I was being told by some of the super rich at that point that Westminster don't understand what the issue here is. They're talking about it being an income tax, you know all about income being the issue. It's not. This is an inheritance tax issue. I don't think they really recognize that as an issue. And here's why it's an issue is that if you're talking about someone who has UK income of say £5 million, but your global income is another £10 million if you're paying three times the income tax, if you love this country and you've set up here and you've got your nice Belgravio mansion sorted and your country estate and you don't want to, you can afford to pay that tax. But the inheritance tax issue is an absolute killer. So the idea for these people that when they die, that a business in India, a hotel in Miami, another company in Australia is somehow all liable for UK inheritance tax when these assets are thousands of miles away just seems extraordinary and unpalatable. So that's the biggest reason is that these particularly elderly rich listers from overseas who just felt, and some of them very, very grumpy about it, you summoned us here to create wealth and build jobs and told us, you know, not we're good for non dom status and then suddenly you've decided to completely change your sister. I have no choice but to leave
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Manveen Rama
and just remind us why the government did that.
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Robert Watts
We all know our public finances are in a bad state. Bear in mind it was Jeremy Hunt actually who. Not of a Conservative, it was under
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Manveen Rama
Rishi Sunak, who had his own trouble with non dom status with his wife. So perhaps it was an attempt to counter that, but it was actually under
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Robert Watts
the last government it was initially mooted certainly, yeah, by Jeremy Hart, but it was Rachel Reeves who did it. And you know, the conversations I have with the treasury still to this day, they are of the view, you know, the language hasn't really changed. It's those with the broader shoulders need to contribute. Trouble is, Louis xiv I think had a finance minister, his name was Colbert, described the art of good tax policy as being able to pluck the most feathers from the geese with the minimum amount of hissing. It's quite difficult to pluck the geese if they've taken flight.
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Manveen Rama
It's a very good way of putting it in terms of the ones who have taken flight. So of that sort of global super rich. Just talk us through a few of the examples and any of them who've explained or, you know, have talked about how they view the country now, what are they saying?
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Robert Watts
John Fredrickson, shipping billionaire from Norway, said the UK gone to hell. Christian Anger Mayer, British regular for a while, German born. He was a political sort of advisor to Angela Merkel in Berlin over years. But he's done very well with investing in all sorts of things. He said that the removal of non dom status, he said to me that was the death knell of London, I think quite an interesting conversation with one of those who's gone who said that it will take a pretty seismic change to bring him back because 10, 20 years ago London did seem unique really. Whereas a lot of other countries now are attracting these people with their own attractive visa system. So it's not that people talk a lot about Dubai and Switzerland, but Italy, very popular, even Spain. I quote in the Richlist this year, a tax advisor, tax and migration advisor to the super rich. A few years ago he had 20 British clients, each worth in excess of 370 million pounds. None of them are now based in the UK, not one. I asked him if he if he's thinking he's going to pick up any more UK clients. I say yeah, probably, but they'll come to me because they too will want to leave.
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Manveen Rama
Coming up, should we care if the super rich are leaving? What impact will it have on the economy and our tax receipts? That's in just a moment.
- [19:19]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
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Manveen Rama
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Robert Watts
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- [20:28]
Manveen Rama
They're all yours. All you have to do is book early book with vrbo. Rob We've been talking about the Sunday Times richness which is out today and how the global super rich appear to be leaving. But the surprising thing that you've noticed this year, as you said, there are two exoduses which we hadn't really accounted for, is that there are British born billionaires who are also leaving. Tell us about that.
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Robert Watts
The Chancellor has made capital gains tax a bit higher. The relief you can claim on capital gains when you sell your business, that's a part of it. Security is also an issue as well, believe it or not. Paul McCartney's wife Nancy spoke about being attacked outside Annabelle's the Mayfair Club. Paul Coulson, who's a little known rich lister, was burgled twice in London, twice in four days. There's a lot of talk about London just not being safe anymore. I was talking to James Stevens, one of the rich listers, who's been based in Dubai for a while now and is doing well building luxury properties out there. I was speaking to him just before the London Marathon. He was doing his training, he was doing his marathon training as the drones from Iran were coming over. And I said, are you quite safe, James, as you're doing your running? And he said, oh, you British journalists, you're all the same. You claim that it's not safe. It's absolutely fine. The alarms go off, all right? You had 500 people murdered in your country last year, Robert, he said about the uk. You know, six people in Dubai have died so far during the conflict. I know where I feel safer. And then you marry that with a tax system which seems, they say, to be now unbalanced in terms of not delivering enough of a reward for the risk that successful entrepreneurs take. Rachel Reeves is sitting there in the treasury trying to rebuild Britain's public finances. She's at a bond market that's always on her mind. You're much likely to be able to draw tax out of people, out of wealthy people than Non wealthy people, but there's a sense that the uk, from a tax system, from a regulation system, from a safety system, that it's, it doesn't have the lure that it once did.
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Manveen Rama
And interesting that people aren't coming back from Dubai then.
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Robert Watts
I think people coming back a little bit. I think there's still the, you know, popping back. You bear in mind, I actually find very few of the global super rich who are spoken of, reported to be in Dubai are there for a few months of the year. They're not there full time.
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Manveen Rama
Talk us through some of the figures, Some of the significant names who were born in Britain, born in the uk, would normally have, probably still feature in the list because they're British citizens but have decided to leave in the last year.
- [23:39]
Robert Watts
Northern Ireland's richest lady, richest person, actually. Lady Bally Edmond, the pharmaceutical heiress, she's moved to Italy. Ian and Richard Livingstone. They own the Cliveden, one of Britain's finest stately homes. They've gone to Monaco. Eddie Hearn, the sports promoter, he's gone to Monaco. Malcolm Healy, for many years regarded as Yorkshire's richest man. You might know him for starting up Wren Kitchens. He's gone to the United States. Nick and Lenleh Lazari, whose father came from Cyprus with I think £20 in his pocket. Their father built up this massive West End property empire worth about £4 billion. They've moved to Cyprus, back to where their father came from. Herman Nerula, young tech entrepreneur, one of our 40 under 40 list. Off to Dubai. I can go on and on.
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Manveen Rama
Can we even begin to quantify how damaging all of this might be in terms of the treasury and tax receipts in this country?
- [24:37]
Robert Watts
I took that to Paul Johnson, who ran the IFS for many years and he argued that, you know, it's plausible, I think was the word he used, that the removing non dom status would bring in a bit of extra money in the first few years. But he was very honest in terms of saying so in those first few
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Manveen Rama
years, people who hadn't moved would be paying more.
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Robert Watts
That was the hope. Yeah. But he was quite vague about that. But then he followed that up with, in the medium to long term, we just don't know. And he said, interestingly enough, that HMRC has got fantastic data on people's incomes. What they don't have is effectively what you at the Sunday Times have got, Robert, which is an understanding of assets of wealth, often that generate these earnings. And with these people leaving the country and transferring their wealth overseas and I am starting to see A bit of this in terms of just. Just little bits of it. I can think of the Midlands billionaire who's transferred £900 million to Luxembourg in the last year. I can see that. I can think of one of the top 10 rich listers who's transferred £2 billion to the Cayman Islands in the past year. That's all on public record. That's in accounts filed at Companies House. That's money which is being generated here, could have been spent here in terms of and gone into economy and could have been taxed here as well. That is something that it's not hard to see why people would get quite concerned about.
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Manveen Rama
I mean, listening to that, though, people will say, ah, Cayman Islands. That's a classic example of one of those offshore tax havens which a lot of the super rich already use an awful lot. So it's not as if they would necessarily be paying taxes. You know, if you're trying to work out how much you're losing in tax receipts, they probably don't pay as much as you think, because some of their funds are tied up in these offshore tax havens and therefore they're not paying taxes on them.
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Robert Watts
Yes. So I think what I was trying to get across more was that I'm definitely seeing a big increase in the amount of money I can see being moved. So someone who is moving maybe £500 million offshore a year, staggering sums we're talking about, aren't we, here? I can see that he's moved £2 billion over the past year. All of this, it feels like a step change and we're seeing significantly more people moving overseas who are British. We're seeing more of a global super rich moving, exiting the Sunday Times rich list because they're leaving the country. And now we're just starting to see more of this money leave the country as well.
- [27:20]
Manveen Rama
It does make it much harder, though, to work out how much we'll lose in terms of tax, knowing that a lot of the super rich do use instruments that mean that their taxes aren't as transparent or as sort of high as you'd necessarily expect. I mean, for the average person listening, there'll be a real sense of tiny violins for the plight of billionaires, global billionaires. Why should they care?
- [27:41]
Robert Watts
So every year we produce a Sunday Times tax list, which we've been doing for, I think, eight years now, which measures the contribution to the public finances some, not all of the people on the rich list make, and we usually get to about 10%. 10 people who contribute £100 million in a year to the public finances. Now this isn't the sort of money that pays for a nurse's salary or a teacher's salary. This is the sort of money that builds a school, builds a hospital. Some of that money is very, very easy for us to track. We can see the corporation tax bill, we can see the employers national insurance bill. We can make assumptions about a tax paid on a dividend if they're UK resident, but, but you need a lot of muggles, normal folk, to replace the tax paid by one of those people if they jump ship to Dubai, Switzerland, Monaco. Now you're absolutely right to be skeptical. There are many people very high up the Sunday Times rich list who have never appeared on the Sunday Times tax list. And we know our readers like comparing who's on one and not on the other side. Often actually we find the people who do well on the tax list are these sort of quite quiet family owned businesses that maybe have been going 100, 150 years, something like that. Big employers, big retailers, often they're quite profitable, they're based here, they're not going to move here. The irony is though is that you can't choose which wealthy people you keep and which you let go. I think the tax list has done a really good job job at challenging the notion that none of the super rich pay any tax at all. It's laid bare that some do, but if you're Rachel Reeves sitting there in the treasury, you can't choose, oh well, I keep the ones who pay lots of tax and jettison the ones who can't. So I think the danger is of course that we don't mind so much. Losing the ones who don't contribute as much perhaps, but the ones that do that poses a headache not just in tax paid but also in jobs created. Some of these people certainly have contributed a lot in terms of job creation while they've been here as well.
- [29:45]
Manveen Rama
In amongst the good news stories, are there people who are making the case, despite all the doom and gloom, to stay in the uk?
- [29:52]
Robert Watts
Absolutely. One of our new entries, Paul Hamilton, a Suffolk based Scotsman, set up Halo, this very successful software operation valued at now north of £1 billion. He's not hung around, makes his rich list entry at more than 1 billion pounds following a valuation for this, for this business. He is adamant that it's vital for him to be seen by his clients as being a British company with local staff. You've got a problem in your software. I'll send someone around. But he's not some anonymous US corporate, he says. So he thinks it's very important for him to stay here and be seen to stay here. Then I spoke to Lord Cruddas, former Treasury of the Conservative Party. He moved to Monaco some years ago. He told me that he thought being out there was a false economy. What he saved in tax when he was out there, he lost in profit. The fact that he wasn't in the London office there running it meant the business did less well, he made less money. And interestingly, the Hindujas, Sanjay and Dhiraj, the next generation of the Hinduja family, Lakshmi Mittal, another great Indian dynasty. He may be off, but Sanjay and Dhiraj Hinduja told me very, very passionately that they would be staying in the uk. They've lived here since the Iranian revolution at the end of the 1970s. They've been here 40, 46, 47 years now. Home for them is London and they don't want to go.
- [31:19]
Manveen Rama
However, if I was to ask you for a prediction for the next rich list next year, do you think there will be, will the exodus continue and is that a reflection of tax policy in this country? Uncertainty with the government or is there something that just seems to be making us less attractive to the rich?
- [31:37]
Robert Watts
I suspect we will see more of the global super rich who've come here leaving and we will be able to prove that in future generations. For the homegrown people leaving the uk, look, it's somehow easier for them to come back, isn't it? They may have family roots here, they may have a business here. The trip overseas may be a short term policy to escape what is seen to be quite a short lived government. Peter Cruddas Law Cradus who I mentioned earlier, he was certainly of the view that he was going to sit this out but that it was changing a high tax government which he and many people in the richness feel that's a relatively short lived thing. But as he said quite punchily, this government's not going to be here forever. People will come back. I think a lot of us hope they do because our economy needs her tax, our economy needs her spending.
- [32:32]
Manveen Rama
That was Robert Watts who compiles the Sunday Times Rich List which is out today. You can read all about it in today's Sunday Times or online at www.thetimes.com. the producer and sound designer today was Dave Creasy. The executive producer was Edward Drummond. We'll be back tomorrow as usual.
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Podcast Host / Advertiser
Foreign.
- [33:08]
Robert Watts
How did they play, what was wonderful,
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Podcast Host / Advertiser
what was woeful and why?
- [33:12]
Robert Watts
I'm Tom Clark and on the Game Football podcast, we answer all of that,
- [33:15]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
plus provide detailed analysis of the tactical
- [33:18]
Robert Watts
trends on the pitch and the financial
- [33:20]
Podcast Host / Advertiser
situations off it will I'm joined by
- [33:22]
Robert Watts
former footballers as well as reporters and columnists from the Times and Sunday Times. We're here twice a week, and for this summer's World cup, we'll bring you daily shows with our team covering every inch of the tournament. Find the Game Wherever you get your
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Podcast Host / Advertiser
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