Were 60,000 migrants intentionally let into Spain?

Summary

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The Story (The Times) — Were 60,000 Migrants Intentionally Let into Spain?

Release Date: August 4, 2026
Hosts: Manveen Rana, Luke Jones
Guests: Katie Gatens (Europe Correspondent, The Sunday Times), Prof. Peter Frankopan (Historian, Oxford)
Key Theme: An in-depth exploration of the mass migrant crossing into Spain’s North African enclave of Ceuta—its causes, humanitarian fallout, and Europe’s political response.

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Episode Overview

This episode investigates the unprecedented influx of an estimated 60,000 migrants into the Spanish territory of Ceuta from Morocco. Through on-the-ground reporting and expert analysis, it examines whether this was a spontaneous movement or a politically coordinated event, delving into its humanitarian impact and its explosive effect on European immigration politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ceuta Migrant Crisis: What Happened?

• Largest Crossing in EU History:
  In just 24 hours, approximately 60,000 migrants entered Ceuta (01:33), overwhelming a city of barely 80,000.
  Quote:

  • “About 60,000 migrants have crossed into Spain's North African territory of Ceuta from Morocco in the last 24 hours.” — Peter Frankopan [01:33]

• Scenes on the Ground:

  • Migrants arrived by land and sea, many swimming for miles without knowing how to swim, clutching inflatables; several deaths resulted from drownings (03:59).
  • Spanish forces deployed tear gas, water cannons, and warning shots to control the border (02:08).

• Rapid Reversal:

  • Within 48 hours, most migrants returned to Morocco voluntarily due to the city’s shutdown and scarcity of aid, leaving approximately 2–3,000 in Ceuta (12:04).

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2. Ceuta’s Unique Position & Historical Context

• Geography & Sovereignty:

  • Ceuta (and Melilla) are Spain’s only land borders with Africa, and Morocco has never accepted Spanish sovereignty, making it a longstanding migration and diplomatic flashpoint (05:26).
  • “People there are incredibly proud of being Spanish, I would say, and very protective over that. But Morocco… has never formally accepted their Spanish sovereignty.” — Katie Gatens [05:26]

• Migration is Perennial, But Never at this Scale:

  • There are usual seasonal influxes, but nothing matching this scale — “the floodgates opened for a multitude of reasons” (06:26).

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3. The Migrant Experience

• Who Were the Migrants?

  • Nationalities included people from Sudan, Syria, Yemen, not just Morocco (07:26).
  • Many were misled by viral social media videos in Arabic claiming “the border is open”—with influencers showing how, where to cross, and even offering Google Maps routes (08:06).

  Quote:

  • “He was in Marrakech when he saw viral videos on social media. The border is open. Come to Ceuta. All in Arabic.” — Katie Gatens [08:06]

• Local Impact in Ceuta:

  • Residents described the situation as “an invasion”; daily life stopped, with restaurants shuttered and residents feeling unsafe (09:15).

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4. Diplomatic Triggers & Political Manipulation

• Was This Orchestrated?

  • Speculation is rife that the Moroccan government turned a blind eye or even encouraged the crossing due to diplomatic frictions with Spain (10:01, 10:50, 11:04).
  • “Morocco has used border controls as a diplomatic bargaining chip.” — Katie Gatens relaying political scientist Pablo Simon [10:01]

• Social Media Amplification:

  • Unlike previous similar events (notably in 2021), this time social media and virality “just added rocket fuel” (11:04).

• Legal Ambiguity:

  • A recent Spanish Supreme Court ruling about sea arrivals made forcible return legally difficult, possibly encouraging more ocean crossings (13:58).

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5. Humanitarian Fallout

• Desperate Conditions:
  • Many migrants lacked food, water, or shelter; over 70 deaths reported (12:27, 12:39).
  • Red Cross and similar agencies declared a crisis point, unable to provide basic care (12:39).
  • Authorities are “disincentivizing” migrants by not providing aid, increasing risk of further deaths (12:39).

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6. Political & Geopolitical Reverberations

• European Backlash:

  • Italy revoked Schengen free movement; France and Germany imposed new border controls (17:02).
  • Spain’s PM Pedro Sanchez blamed “trafficking gangs” rather than Morocco, reflecting political sensitivities: cooperation with Morocco is crucial for Spanish and EU migration control (13:58).
  • Spain’s opposition accused Sanchez of a “triple failure” in migration, security, and foreign policy (17:48).

• Geopolitical Chess:

  • Prof. Peter Frankopan outlined how Morocco has historically used migration as leverage—often in response to Spanish moves favoring Algeria or Western Sahara independence (22:32, 23:59).
  • The US, Israel, and right-wing European politicians are entwined, too, given Spanish stances on Gaza and NATO (24:00).
  • “Releasing 50,000 people across the border is a way of showing Spain that, look, you should mind your step.” — Peter Frankopan [25:22]

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7. Social Media and Migration

• Coordinated or Catalyzed?
  • While some coordination by authorities is suspected, such rapid movement of so many depends on hyper-connectedness: WhatsApp, TikTok, Instagram can mobilize thousands rapidly with rumor and viral posts (26:54).

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8. Migration as Europe’s Defining Issue

• Political Weaponization:

  • The images from Ceuta “would have petrified” those worried about migration, and were used by right-wing parties across Europe as a rallying point (28:24).
  • “Migration has become the most important issue in which governments get elected or they rise and fall.” — Peter Frankopan [28:45]

• Underlying Economic Tensions:

  • Tolerance falls when economies tighten, making migration even more politically potent (31:00).

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “About 60,000 migrants have crossed into Spain’s North African territory of Ceuta from Morocco in the last 24 hours.”
  — Peter Frankopan [01:33]

• “The border is open. Come to Ceuta. All in Arabic… almost influencers giving tips and advice…”
  — Katie Gatens [08:06]

• “Morocco has used border controls as a diplomatic bargaining chip.”
  — Pablo Simon (via Katie Gatens) [10:01]

• “Releasing 50,000 people across the border is a way of showing Spain that, look, you should mind your step.”
  — Peter Frankopan [25:22]

• “Migration has become the most important issue in which governments get elected or they rise and fall.”
  — Peter Frankopan [28:45]

• “These people are demonised… when you actually meet these people… they’re electricians, builders, and they just want a better life… I just have a lot of empathy for the people who are being used as pawns by governments.”
  — Katie Gatens [19:02]

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Segment Timestamps

• [01:04] — Episode intro and summary of crisis
• [03:44] — Katie Gatens reports from Ceuta
• [05:26] — Ceuta’s geographical and political context
• [07:26] — Migrant stories, motivations, and social media’s role
• [10:01] — Diplomatic analysis and Moroccan border manipulation
• [12:39] — Humanitarian crisis on Ceuta’s beaches
• [13:58] — Legal backdrop and Spanish government response
• [16:14] — Europe-wide diplomatic fallout
• [17:48] — Spanish domestic political response
• [19:02] — Katie Gatens’ personal reflections
• [21:50] — Peter Frankopan’s geopolitical explanation
• [23:59] — Links to Algeria, Western Sahara, Israel, US policy
• [26:54] — Social media as catalyst and tool
• [28:45] — Migration’s politicization in contemporary Europe
• [31:00] — Economic pressures and the cycle of intolerance

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Tone & Language

The episode balances journalistic detachment (through on-the-ground reporting and data) with moments of personal empathy and analytical rigor. Katie Gatens describes vivid, human scenes of suffering and migration, while Peter Frankopan places events into a sweeping historical and geopolitical context. The tone is urgent, probing, and at times somber—mirroring the gravity of the situation.

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Summary Takeaways

• The mass migration at Ceuta was likely catalyzed by a mix of diplomatic maneuvering, social media-fueled rumor, and critical legal changes.
• Humanitarian conditions remain dire, with dozens dead and thousands in limbo.
• Europe’s politics and security architecture have been jolted anew, underscoring migration as the continent’s defining—and most divisive—issue.
• Ultimately, both migrants and local communities are caught in a complex web of international posturing and digital-age mobilization.

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Transcript

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[Manveen Rana]

from the Times and the Sunday Times, this is the story. I'm Manveen Rana. They came by land and sea. Tens of thousands of people en masse surged into the Spanish enclave of Ceuta last week.

[Peter Frankopan]

About 60,000 migrants have crossed into Spain's North African territory of Ceuta from Morocco in the last 24 hours.

[Political Commentator]

Migrants trying to get around the border fence. Some try to skirt around it, others take to the sea and swim around the fence. Dozens of migrants have died trying since Thursday morning.

[Manveen Rana]

It was the largest single illegal border crossing in the history of the European Union. The astonishing scene sent shockwaves around the world.

[Peter Frankopan]

Italy has said that it has suspended the EU's Schengen free travel regime, with Spain authorities now deploying tear gas water cannons and firing warning shots in an effort to stop tens of thousands of migrants coming in from Morocco.

[Commentator]

You know, I saw Spain yesterday and I watched the catastrophe that took place. It looks like an invasion of a country.

[Manveen Rana]

And yet within 48 hours, as suddenly as they had come, the majority returned to Morocco voluntarily. Of those Left, more than 70 people are dead. And a humanitarian crisis is unfolding. But how did we get here? Was it coordinated by political actors? And what impact has it had on the hotly contested immigration debate across Europe?

[Peter Frankopan]

A nation that cannot control its borders is not a sovereign nation, and Britain is being invaded. I think what happened in Ceta over the weekend shows you just how Serious this situation is.

[Manveen Rana]

We'll hear from our reporter who has been in Ceuta and the author, historian and Oxford professor Peter Frankapan. The story today, what really happened in Ceuta?

[Katie Gatens]

I was quite nervous turning up, actually. I got the ferry there for from the mainland Spain.

[Manveen Rana]

Katie Gatens is Europe correspondent for the Sunday Times and she's just got back from Ceuta, the scene of those recent crossings.

[Katie Gatens]

As soon as I got out of the port, really, there were young men, boys actually, carrying flippers that they had used to swim across, queuing at petrol stations, sort of begging to be sold food. Hundreds of army officers with tanks and jeeps and guns, you know, looking incredibly intimidating and directing people away from the main town. And I went to the border and there were still hundreds of people in the sea, wading across, swimming across, some people crawling out onto the sand, exhausted. Those people were being stretchered off. People had swam for miles. And one thing that was really apparent as well is that not a lot of these people can swim. So a lot of them were clutching inflatables. There was women and children, but it was mainly young men. I spoke to one man who I met him, dripping, running out onto the sand, and he just said, viva Espana.

[Interviewer]

Katie, we'll get into what's happened to those people who. Who've been arriving in just a moment. Before we do, though, just take us back. Where exactly is Ceuta? Just explain a bit of the history.

[Katie Gatens]

So it's on the very, very tip of North Africa, and it's actually been a Spanish territory since 1580. One of the things that really struck me as quite interesting about it is the food. It's a real mixture of North African and Spanish. So you go out for tapas and you get meat skewers that you would expect. I've eaten those in Marrakech. But people there are incredibly proud of being Spanish, I would say, and very protective over that. Along with Melilla, it's another Spanish territory. It's the EU's only land borders with Africa. But Morocco, crucially, has never formally accepted their sovereignty, their Spanish sovereignty. And as you might expect, they're on the tip of North Africa, so they have become a flashpoint for illegal migration.

[Interviewer]

That's so interesting. So there is a history of this. This isn't the first time it's emerged, but just describe the scenes that occurred at the end of last week and over the last few days.

[Katie Gatens]

As you said, Ceuta has always had seasonally, mainly in the summer, just like ours, illegal border crossings. And instead of small boats, it's people swimming across, or actually jet skis is a big mode of immigration. So there's always been a few dozen people are used to seeing migrants crossing the border, milling around town. But obviously what happened last week was the floodgates opened for a multitude of reasons, and an estimated 60,000 migrants crossed in just a few days. It's the largest single illegal border crossing in the EU's history.

[Manveen Rana]

You were there meeting some of the

[Interviewer]

people who had managed to get over the border, had managed to swim to Ceuta. What were they telling you? Tell us about some of the people you met.

[Katie Gatens]

Yeah, so the next day I actually traveled to the temporary immigration centre, which is on the other side of the territory, up in the hills. I tried to get in to try and speak to some people about what was going on. It was a flat. No, it was surrounded by police, military, but outside of the immigration center, there was hundreds and hundreds. I would say more than 500 people. People who were hungry, thirsty, sleeping rough in the dirt. I met people from Sudan and Syria and Yemen.

[Interviewer]

So they're not just coming from Morocco?

[Katie Gatens]

No, absolutely not. So I met one man, Quasi al Mahayni, who's 23. He said that he spent 10 hours swimming and thought he was going to die. He said that he had spent about a month traveling through North Africa from Yemen and he was in Marrakech when he saw viral videos on social media. The border is open. Come to Ceuta. All in Arabic. Apparently there are some videos showing exactly how to cross, where to buy inflatables from, even the Google Maps routes up to North Africa, up to the border, almost influencers giving tips and advice. And, you know, it was a painting, a very happy scene about how easy it was. So he thought he'd give it a go.

[Interviewer]

So many others had exactly the same thought. And we, you know, we're told around 60,000 people made it into Ceuta, which is, you know, dwarfs the normal population. Give us a sense of how this little city was affected by this huge influx of people.

[Katie Gatens]

People described to me, residents of Ceuta described the scene on Thursday and Friday of an invasion of people. And it must have really felt like it. And one young girl I spoke to had been trapped in her home, or felt like she was trapped in her home for two days. She wouldn't have felt safe on the street. And when I arrived on Friday, there was barely any restaurants open. There were small corner shops with groups of migrants asking people who were going in if they could buy them food because they wouldn't be served Is there

[Interviewer]

any sense of how so many people managed to get in? Because, I mean, there is a border with Morocco there. Why did so many people manage to get around that?

[Katie Gatens]

I think there's a lot of speculation that is ongoing at the moment. And last night, Morocco's Interior Ministry put out a statement that they had acted at the earliest opportunity to this surge. And, you know, I think that a lot of people think that this is not a migration issue. This is a diplomatic issue. I spoke to Pablo Simon, who's professor of political science at the University of Madrid, and he said it's a controversial opinion, but Morocco has used border controls as a diplomatic bargaining chip. And when Morocco disagrees with a specific policy of Spain, they reduce border control in order to be sure that they create an internal problem for the government.

[Interviewer]

So, Katie, is the implication that because this was a diplomatic spat, effectively, that the Moroccan authorities turned a blind eye or that the guards there let people through? What happened to the normal policing of that border?

[Katie Gatens]

I don't think that Morocco would ever admit to that. Back in 2021, when this happened, there was a very similar diplomatic spat. Morocco relaxed policing at the border, and 8,000 migrants came to Ceuta. You know, my opinion is they tried to do it again, but social media, the algorithm, TikTok, Instagram, just added rocket fuel to this in a way that we have not seen before. And I think it just snowballed. And I think when Morocco potentially tried to get a grasp on the situation, they were just simply overwhelmed.

[Interviewer]

Katie, as suddenly as that surge of people had arrived within 48 hours, it felt like it was just as quickly receding. How many of those 60,000 are still in Ceuta?

[Katie Gatens]

So there are estimates that there are a few thousand, about 2 to 3,000 migrants who have stayed in Ceuta. The reality is, is that with bars, shops, and restaurants all closed, many just returned home.

[Interviewer]

And, Katie, we know that this is a bit of a humanitarian disaster because

[Manveen Rana]

of the people who came over.

[Interviewer]

Many actually died. More than 70 at current.

[Manveen Rana]

the current count.

[Interviewer]

Just tell us a bit about.

[Katie Gatens]

So the death toll as it stands is currently in the 70s. But as you said, there is a serious humanitarian crisis going on. When I visited the beaches yesterday, there are people in desperate situation. They claim that they have not eaten for three or four days. And organizations like the Red Cross have put out stations saying that they're at crisis point and completely overwhelmed and unable to, you know, relieve staff or provide basic care. I think we're at a point where the focus is still on getting people back across the border. And to do that, they're sort of disincentivized to stay because they're not being provided with food and water and shelter. But there's going to be more casualties and deaths if they are not provided with basic aid.

[Interviewer]

Katie, you've been describing the humanitarian crisis in Ceuta and just the events of the past few days. What does Pedro Sanchez, the Prime Minister of Spain, what does he say is behind this sudden influx of people?

[Katie Gatens]

Pedro Sanchez, interestingly, blamed trafficking gangs in Morocco so as not to blame the Moroccan authorities. He's found himself, I think, in an impossible situation because he has to work closely with Rabat in order to police the border. In return, Morocco receives hundreds of millions of euros in European funding for border management. So he said the gangs had circulated false information about a Spanish Supreme Court ruling. So, in late June, there was a landmark ruling that defined the border powers in Ceuta. In 2024, a migrant was returned to Morocco after swimming around the breakwaters. And the court ruled that while this return was legal for fences and land borders, it crucially, it did not apply to sea rivals. So Sanchez's saying that trafficking gangs jumped upon this opportunity to kind of accelerate arrivals by the sea.

[Interviewer]

That's so interesting. So.

[Manveen Rana]

So that ruling does make it legal for people to arrive by sea. Were the gangs, right, Spain, they can't

[Katie Gatens]

forcibly return people, but they're saying that, you know, it doesn't count. This last week is you sort of had a, you know, a mass arrival, and we can. And we can circumvent EU law.

[Interviewer]

Did the Spanish or the Moroccan authorities, did they know it was coming? Were they prepared?

[Katie Gatens]

That's a good question. And I think that now that the crisis has subsided, a lot of people will be looking back and thinking, could this have been preempted? But I think at the same time, there's only so much you can do on the Spanish side if there is a lack of border control in Morocco. There are reports out there of migrants saying that they were waved through and actively encouraged by border police who were saying Spain is this way or directing them to cross. I'm. I'm no idea if that's true, but it's interesting if it is, and just

[Interviewer]

explain why the Moroccans would have potentially have been willing to wave people through. Now, if they are using this as diplomatic leverage, what is it they want?

[Katie Gatens]

Well, it's created a complete headache, more than a headache, a crisis, really, for Pedro Sanchez. I mean, he's been ostracized from other EU leaders a Spanish minister saying

[Political Commentator]

there

[Katie Gatens]

are countries that have really shown an absolutely selfish, unsupportive and irresponsible attitude. Italy has revoked the Schengen Zone and is introducing passport checks for third party nationals from Spain. There was a letter to the European Commission and European Union signed by 22 EU member states.

[Political Commentator]

France said it would implement tighter border controls with Spain. Italy's Prime Minister, Giorgio Meloni, is suspending free movement of people between Spain and Italy. And Germany's Chancellor demanded that Morocco take back what he called illegal migrants.

[Katie Gatens]

There's a crisis meeting being held today and this has all been caused arguably by Sanchez's actions. He's an outlier in Europe. He's one of the very few socialist leaders, socialist heads of state. The leader of the opposition party in Spain said it was very much the Prime Minister's fault and he blamed Sanchez's immigration policy, which allows the regularization of undocumented migrants.

[Spanish Opposition Politician]

What we are suffering in Ceuta is a story of a triple failure, the failure of migration policy, security policy and foreign policy. This shouldn't have happened and it cannot happen again. Spain must maintain a relationship with Morocco that is based on mutual respect, cooperation and good neighbourliness.

[Katie Gatens]

And as we've seen over the past sort of six months, Sanchez's response to Trump and migration, it's been completely at odds with what Meloni and the rest of Europe is doing. So I think it's a very hot topic, migration at the moment. And I think that if you look at the news and what's happening in the uk, it's really played into the hands of right wing populist political parties. And that is not good news for Sanchez, especially with the general election coming up next year.

[Interviewer]

Katie, for you, you are back now in Spain. Obviously, the whole country has, has been shocked by what happened. Having actually been to Ceuta and seen it firsthand, what are you left thinking about it?

[Katie Gatens]

Oh, that's a good question. I think I need some sleep. I think that for me personally, and I've visited a few migrant camps now, these people are demonised. People are scared of migrants in the uk, people think that they're criminals and rapists, but when you actually meet these people and speak to these people, they're electricians, they're builders and they were unfortunate enough to be born in Sudan and Syria and they just want a better life. A lot of them want to work. So I think I just have a lot of empathy for the people who are being used as pawns by governments.

[Manveen Rana]

Coming up, the historian Peter Frankopan explains a bit more about why this might have happened and how it fanned the flames of the immigration debate across Europe. That's in just a moment.

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[Peter Frankopan]

I'm a historian, so the thing that's always interesting is, is why now? And also it's very unusual for tens of thousands of of people to all react the same way.

[Manveen Rana]

While those images coming out of SUTA

[Interviewer]

were seen by people around the world,

[Manveen Rana]

for the author and professor of global history at Oxford University, Peter Frankapan, they raised more questions than answers.

[Peter Frankopan]

So the coordination, or I guess suspected coordination is one thing, but also trying to work out what was it that triggered this?

[Manveen Rana]

What do you think contributed? I mean, a lot of people have talked about the way Morocco often uses that border as sort of diplomatic leverage. Do you think that was happening here?

[Peter Frankopan]

I think states often use borders as diplomatic leverage. I think that that's what Russia has done. That's why the border with Finland, with the Baltic states has been closed, because you can destabilize governments and countries by putting them under all sorts of different kinds of pressure. Lots of this hangs on the relationship between Morocco, its neighbour Algeria, and Western Sahara. Western Sahara is a giant part of West Africa, whose sovereignty has been long disputed. Morocco claims sovereignty, and in the end of Trump's first presidency, the United States recognized Morocco's claim over Western Sahara, essentially in return for normalization of relations with Israel. Algeria sees things very differently. It supports something called the polisaria Front, which seeks independence for Western Sahara for the people who live there. And those relationships between Rabat in Morocco and Algiers have been pretty fractious because of this. But there is a wider geopolitical picture. I mentioned Israel, I mentioned the United States. These 3D chess games are going on not just in Ceuta, in Spain, but in lots of other parts of the world, too. So it looks a recognizable pattern where applying pressure through migration or through economics is a way of a new form of hybrid activity.

[Manveen Rana]

And what exactly had happened recently to have triggered a response like this from Morocco in terms of that relationship with Algeria? Why might they be feeling rather miffed?

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, in 2021, the Spanish government allowed the Polisario leader Brahim Ghali to receive medical treatment after he got severe Covid and probably some other underlying health conditions, and that in retaliation, something like 10,000 people were essentially waved through the border to show Spain that Morocco has got a set of tools that it's willing to use. In this particular instance, Pedro Sanchez, the leader of Spain, has been quite vocal in a couple of things that you can see why they might antagonize. In the first instance, he visited Algiers about 10 days beforehand. So that would have set some feathers flying. In Morocco, he's been very vocal about Gaza and about recognizing an independent state of Palestine that has raised hackles in Israel. He's been very outspoken. He's also been outspoken in not only not meeting NATO defence budgets, that's antagonized Trump. Trump has used some pretty colorful language to describe Sanchez over the course of the last couple of months, but also not allowing the United States to use Spanish bases for its bombing of Iran or even airspace. So Trump, for example, has called Sanchez a terrible partner. And in fact, at the Ankara meeting of NATO in June, he turned to his treasury secretaries, got, and said, I don't want anything to do with Spain.

[Commentator]

Spain is a wasted cause. We don't want to do any trade business with Spain anymore. By the way, I'd like you to cut it off. Spain is a terrible partner in NATO.

[Peter Frankopan]

It was not hard to put two and two together and say, well, releasing 50,000 people across the border is a way of showing Spain that, look, you should mind your step.

[Interviewer]

That's so interesting.

[Manveen Rana]

So for Morocco, it's a way of showing Spain they shouldn't be extending such warm relations with. With Algeria right now. That's. That's not going to go down well

[Peter Frankopan]

with Algeria, with Israel, with the US that there's a way, I think, in which the old Fashioned historians like me call this foreign policy. You, you find ways of conducting war through peaceful means and you find ways of applying pressure to people's windpipes to show them that they should think twice before they pick sides.

[Manveen Rana]

And you mentioned both Israel and the United States there. I mean, in Israel we have seen over the past year or so, while Spain has been objecting to what's been happening in Gaza and has supported the idea of a Palestinian state, the Israeli Foreign Ministry will put out tweets sometimes saying Spain can't make that argument until they're willing to give up their territories in Morocco. Similarly, in America, we understand that there was a bill passed just two weeks ago which most Republicans signed up to, which again seem to recognize Ceuta as Moroccan territory. Do you think this is, is this sort of a coordinated push by all three countries to try and show Spain they're not happy? How do these things happen? As an expert in how foreign policy is, is applied.

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, it's always very lovely to be described as an expert. I think there's a, there's quite a bit of crystal ball gazing in all of this because we don't have the tools, the data, the materials that we would be able to do anything beyond conjecture. I mean, I guess as a starting point, the new social media tools that we've got, the way that people are hyper connected through WhatsApp groups, through other social media platforms means that news can be telegraphed very quickly to mobilize. And as it happens in Morocco, North Morocco is home to lots of informal net settlements called Al Kalyan, which is a play on the French word caviar. The sort of cantons or the slums, I guess, are where Moroccan workers used to live. And you can mobilise people to say, look, there's some news, the ball is going to be opened for you. These things, they can happen naturally, but they can also be galvanized and catalyzed by actors that are incentivized. And usually with things like this, you think, who stands to gain? So you mentioned United States and suites and its status, but there are also a lot of right leaning political parties and far right in Europe that for whom migration is the single most important and effective way of getting people to come and vote. And so those scenes that were televised all around the world would have petrified anybody who thinks that migration is a challenge or is difficult because you think this is the southern flank of Europe being overwhelmed. If you're a far right politician, I don't want to say it's a Godsend for you, but it gives you a lot of material to play with to say, this is why we need to have a firm line against sealing the borders and not allowing anybody into Europe.

[Manveen Rana]

And we've seen the issue come into sharp focus here in Britain again just yesterday. Off the back of those images going out all over the world last week, we've had Nigel Farage and Reform putting forward more policies on small boats. Does the case of Souter just go to show how important and how powerful a political issue this has become?

[Peter Frankopan]

Absolutely. I mean, I think it's the single one, it's the number one rated issue in every country in Europe today is the question of migration. And I don't think there's a single solution or a single simple explanation about what the right sort of policy is. But yeah, we saw reform politicians turn up in Ceuta to be photographed at the borders to show, look, this is what's coming towards us. And those questions are perfectly valid ones. These things, they do put pressure on local communities where jobs are at risk. They're going through a technological revolution where those are obviously going to be more sensitive at the moment. So migration has become the most important issue in which governments get elected or they rise and fall.

[Manveen Rana]

Just finally, Peter, this is the year that you sort of feel like geography is being weaponized. We've watched choke points like the Strait of Hormuz become an incredibly powerful weapon, as strong as a sort of a nuclear deterrent. You know, it's an ability to wage war without having to go to war. Is the same thing happening with border?

[Interviewer]

Borders?

[Peter Frankopan]

You're probably asking the wrong person because historians tend to be quite good on thinking about choke points, about mountain ranges, about borders, and about the ways in which geography is an important way of thinking about national security. So I think it's been ever thus. It's no surprise that frontiers, walls, borders have been some of the greatest things that have shaped the 20th century. So I think that we, over the last 30, 40 years, particularly here in Europe, have fallen asleep thinking that the world is a very happy, gentle place where people just want to trade with each other. It turns out that it's much more complicated than that. So I think it's just a cold dose of water that reminds us that fundamentals matter and that sort of fairyland of all of us getting on okay, can town that can be exploited quite effectively, whether it's by organized groups, whether it's by sudden pieces of information that are suddenly jumped on by tens of thousands of people or by politicians who want to exploit it either domestically or abroad. And again, we should probably add that a lot of this stuff about migration is funneled by bad actor groups outside Europe from Russia, for example. So we are a long way behind, I think, in thinking about how do we regulate, how do we understand these networks and how do we learn how to shut these things down?

[Manveen Rana]

As somebody who has looked at these

[Interviewer]

things happening over thousands of years, are there any simple solutions?

[Manveen Rana]

How do you shut those, those problems down?

[Peter Frankopan]

I think it's very easy when you are growing economically to be tolerant. That's one of the great lessons of great trade networks like silk roads or maritime connections. When things are going well, your ability to understand other people's point of view and to actually search them out and to learn from it, benefit from it, revel in it, you've got a much higher capacity and tolerance to be able to absorb new ideas. When things look tough economically, then everything else starts to close around with you. And so I think it's also a reflection of the fact that life is quite tough for us here in Europe and in fact in many parts of the world. And that's why some of these conversations about what really presses our buttons and antagonizes and scares us are so vivid at the moment.

[Manveen Rana]

That was Peter Frankepan, professor of Global history at Oxford University. And before him you heard from Katie Gatens, Europe correspondent for the Sunday Times. The producers today were Olivia Case and Jennifer Kennedy. The executive producer was Harry Stott. Sound design was by Dave Creasy and theme composition was by Malaceto. If you can do leave us a review.

[Interviewer]

It'll help others to find us.

[Manveen Rana]

And if you'd like to get in touch, do drop us a line to the [e-mail] thanks for listening.

[Interviewer]

See you again soon.

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