What Henry Nowak's murder means for policing

Summary

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The Story – "What Henry Nowak's murder means for policing"

Date: June 5, 2026
Host: Manveen Rana
Guests: Matt Dathan (Home Affairs Editor, The Times), Chris Hobbs (Retired Metropolitan Police Officer)

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Overview

This episode delves into the aftermath of the murder of Henry Novak, an 18-year-old student, and examines what his death reveals about policing, racial tensions, and knife crime in the UK. The incident, which escalated after a fatal misjudgment by responding officers, has sparked national debates about alleged "two tier policing," controversial police guidelines, and the impacts on both the Sikh community and law enforcement. Host Manveen Rana, along with expert guests, unpacks the facts of the case, societal reactions, and the calls for change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Crime and Immediate Aftermath

[01:13–09:02]

• Incident Recap:

  • In December 2025, Henry Novak encountered brothers Vikram and Gerpreet Digwa in Southampton, as the Digwas were finishing a food delivery shift.
  • Henry, noticing Vikram carrying a large knife openly, filmed their interaction and questioned the presence of the knife.
  • The situation escalated rapidly: Vikram Digwa stabbed Henry five times with a 21cm dagger, severing a major vein.
  • [02:29] "There were weapons. Because the second man on that call...was carrying a 21 centimeter dagger designed to penetrate armor and he'd used it to stab 18 year old Henry Novak multiple times." – Manveen Rana

• Police Response:

  • Gerpreet called 999 claiming they had been victims of a racist attack. When police arrived, they mistakenly handcuffed and arrested Henry Novak, assuming he was the attacker, despite his pleas for help.
  • Henry told police 11 times, "I can't breathe," and said he'd been stabbed, but officers dismissed his statements until it was too late.
  • [07:37] "He's repeatedly telling officers...that he's been stabbed. He repeatedly says, I think about 11 times. I can't breathe, and says he needs an ambulance." – Matt Dathan

• Public Release of Footage:

  • Footage of officers arresting the dying Henry and the 999 call were published during the court case, igniting outrage and violent protests.

2. Outrage and Political Fallout

[09:02–14:21]

• Widespread Reaction:

  • The murder and police mishandling quickly dominated UK politics and social media, with global commentary, misinformation, and targeted harassment of involved officers.
  • "It's one of the main topics that is trending and being chatted about on various different social media platforms." – Matt Dathan [09:02]

• Debate Over Police Guidelines:

  • The National Police Chiefs Council (NPCC) had previously issued guidance advising officers to account for individuals' backgrounds, challenging the idea of "treating everyone the same."
  • The guidelines were criticized for encouraging unequal treatment based on race and seeking to equalize arrest rates among groups, despite different crime statistics.
  • "It does not mean treating everyone, quote, the same, or being colorblind..." – Matt Dathan quoting NPCC guidance [10:00]

• Local Force Guidance:

  • Hampshire police’s local racial action plan emphasized trauma-informed policing for minorities, prompting further debate about whether such policies hinder impartiality.

3. Knife Crime Laws & Religious Exemptions

[13:13–15:04]

• Legal Context:

  • UK law is strict on knife possession but allows limited religious exemptions (e.g., the Sikh kirpan).
  • The weapon used by Digwa was illegal even under Sikh exemptions due to its length and sharpness.
  • "It certainly wasn’t blunt. But again, it did spark a bit of a debate about whether there should be exemptions." – Matt Dathan [13:23]

• Community Perspective:

  • Host Manveen Rana notes the distinctiveness of the weapon: "A standard kirpan is...a blunted, symbolic blade, I guess. So this really is not standard." [14:21]

4. Historical Context of Race and Policing

[15:04–16:22]

• Efforts to root out racism in the police trace back to the Stephen Lawrence case and were intensified after high-profile US incidents like the murder of George Floyd.
• Recent criticism (e.g., by Jack Straw) argues such policies have swung too far, supposedly resulting in reverse discrimination or "two tier policing."

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5. On-the-Ground Police View: Chris Hobbs Interview

[19:05–27:45]

• Personal Policing Experience:

  • Chris Hobbs shares his positive working relationship with the Sikh community:
    • [19:49] "Did you have difficulty policing the Sikh community, given the exemptions in terms of carrying weapons? Was that ever a problem?"
      • "No, no, it wasn't...I was tremendously honored [to be gifted a ceremonial sword]." – Chris Hobbs

• Reacting to the Crime Scene:

  • Arriving at violent incidents is overwhelming; officers do "dynamic risk assessments" under pressure.
  • [20:44] "You've got to assess everything that's going on...You also have to be very aware of your own safety and the safety of people around you, including the victim." – Chris Hobbs

• Judgment on the Police Response:

  • Cites the judge's lack of criticism toward the officers; darkness and Henry's clothing hid the blood.
  • [21:38] "There was absolutely no criticism of the police officer whatsoever...the blood wasn't visible through Henry's clothing." – Chris Hobbs

• On Two-Tier Policing:

  • "I don't accept this two tier policing. It is something that really does again affect the morale of officers, which at the moment is crashing through the floor anyway." – Chris Hobbs [22:50]
  • Officers feel pressured by accusations of racism, which can take a toll on their wellbeing and careers.

• Impact on Police & Sikh Communities:

  • Identifying officers online, "collective smearing" of all police and, conversely, the Sikh community being smeared after the attack.
  • [26:00] "I think that's a real hammer blow to the Sikhs...they're also...concerned that their religious symbol isn't taken away from them. Again, it's a byproduct of this awful tragedy." – Chris Hobbs

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6. Political and Policy Response

[27:45–30:50]

• Calls for Reform:

  • Policing Minister Sarah Jones labeled the guidance "clumsy and wrong" and called for review.
  • The NPCC has promised to revise the guidance.
  • Chief Constable of Hampshire Police apologized for arresting and handcuffing Henry, but rejected claims of systemic two-tier policing:
    • [28:43] "We are apologising...for the fact that Henry was arrested and that he was handcuffed at that time. ... But denied allegations of two tier policing. I would refute that..." – Chief Constable (as paraphrased by Matt Dathan/Chris Hobbs)

• Party Leaders' Positions:

  • Keir Starmer, Labour leader, directly rejected the existence of two tier policing, more forcefully than some within his party.

• Ongoing Investigations:

  • There will be an independent investigation into the officers’ actions; further charges are pending against the perpetrator and affiliates.

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7. Henry Novak’s Family’s Appeal

[30:50–31:43]

• The Novak family have been clear: they want change, not division, and specifically request their son’s death not be used for political point-scoring or inflaming racial tension:

  • [31:10] "We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. We want his story to make our streets safer for everyone." – Statement from Henry Novak’s family

• Their focus is on ensuring fair treatment by police in the future and preventing similar tragedies.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On systemic issues:
  • "What the whole world has now seen in Henry's video is what we all know anyway. It's a different treatment for white people compared to non whites." – [03:18] Protester (Voice in Parliament)
• Host personal note:
  • "I have to say I'm from the Sikh community and I'd never seen a knife like that before." – Manveen Rana [14:21]
• On the tragedy’s impact:
  • "No other family should experience the heartbreak and horror of losing a child to knife crime...we are so proud of him and we love him beyond words." – Henry Novak’s family statement [31:43]

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Key Timestamps

• 01:13–05:15: Timeline of the crime, 999 call, and police missteps
• 09:02–14:21: Media, political firestorm, and analysis of police guidelines
• 19:05–22:19: Former officer Chris Hobbs on community policing and arriving at violent scenes
• 22:50–26:00: Two tier policing debate and impact on police and Sikh communities
• 27:45–29:09: Political reactions, force apologies, and calls for guidance reform
• 30:50–31:43: The Novak family’s statement and wishes

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Takeaways

• The Henry Novak case has brought to light deep tensions in British society about race, police conduct, and community relations.
• Both law enforcement and minority communities feel under siege, caught between calls for fairness and heightened scrutiny.
• There are urgent calls to revise guidelines, improve policing responses, and heal social rifts — with the Novak family stressing their son’s memory should drive constructive change, not further division.

---

Transcript

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[Manveen Rana]

From the Times and the Sunday Times. This is the story. I'm Manveen Rana, foreign. 2025, a 999 call is made asking for the police.

[Matt Dathan]

Sorry, we just got attacked racially by some white person.

[Chris Hobbs]

Right.

[Matt Dathan]

Okay.

[Chris Hobbs]

Whereabouts are you?

[Matt Dathan]

We're on Belmont Road, just out in the street.

[Chris Hobbs]

Are you? Yeah, literally.

[Matt Dathan]

I just parked up my car to come home and he's attacked my brother.

[Chris Hobbs]

You're talking about verbally or physically? No, no, he's physically attacked my brother. We're Sikhs.

[Matt Dathan]

We wear turban and he's attack.

[Manveen Rana]

Two men are on the line from a street in Southampton.

[Chris Hobbs]

The police need a report.

[Matt Dathan]

Come here. Yeah, he was.

[Manveen Rana]

Something has clearly gone very wrong now.

[Matt Dathan]

He's lying on the floor.

[Chris Hobbs]

He was trying to get away.

[Matt Dathan]

He jumped over some bins and stuff. I think he needs medical attention. Does he need medical attention?

[Chris Hobbs]

You reckon he will?

[Matt Dathan]

Yeah, I believe, yeah.

[Chris Hobbs]

Just to confirm, no one's seen any weapons?

[Matt Dathan]

No, no, I don't know what weapons there would be,

[Manveen Rana]

but there were weapons. Because the second man on that call, Vikram Digigua, was carrying a 21 centimeter dagger designed to penetrate armor and he'd used it to stab 18 year old Henry Novak multiple times. But when the police arrived on the scene because of that 999 call, they thought Novak was the attacker and they handcuffed and arrested him as he lay dying begging for help earlier this week, Digwa was sentenced to life in prison. And that call and footage from the scene were made public, sparking outrage.

[Chris Hobbs]

I suggest the rest of us respond to this with pure cold rage. This is wrong. What the whole world has now seen in Henry's video is what we all know anyway. It's a different treatment for white people compared to non whites.

[Manveen Rana]

Violent protests broke out in Southampton. While Westminster went to war.

[Chris Hobbs]

Can he take some action, end this divisive practice of two tier policing and make sure that all British citizens are treated the same.

[Manveen Rana]

Nigel Farage faced jeers in Parliament for not condemning the violence in Southampton. The Prime Minister for responded.

[Chris Hobbs]

Exploiting this tragedy to create grievance and division would be wrong in any circumstances. But to do it when the family are expressly saying please don't is unforgivable.

[Manveen Rana]

Is there a system of two tier policing in the uk? Does the guidance need to change? And would any of that have made a difference to the tragic case of Henry Novak? The story today what the Henry Novak murder means for the police.

[Matt Dathan]

It was about 11pm in Southton in Hampshire in December 2025. Viktram Digwa was with his older brother Gerfrey. They'd been making food deliveries for the food delivery company Deliveroo, and they were just finishing off their shift for the day.

[Manveen Rana]

That's Matt Dason, Home Affairs Editor at the Times.

[Matt Dathan]

18 year old Henry Novak was walking along nearby. He'd been on a short evening out, coming to the end of his first term at university. He'd just been to the Hobbit pub, popular with students in Southampton. And the first video we have of the incident of Vic Rodigua taken from Henry Novak's Snapchat video actually at 11:18pm because Henry had got out his phone when he came across Vikram Digua, because he spotted a Digwa carrying a large knife carried openly in a sheath on the outside of his clothes. And an argument between the pair broke out as they approached it on Belmont Road. Because Novak asked Digua whether he's a bad man. Novak films himself cheekily asking Diguire if he's a bad man for carrying bad that knife. And Digua says yes, he is and snatches Novak's phone and ends the video. And from that moment very much escalates and the stabbing takes place. Diggva took out his 21cm long ceremonial dagger and stabbed Novak five times. And we now know that he severed a major vein behind his collarbone. And then Digwa goes back to his older brother Gerprieth, who's been sitting in the Car tells his brother he's been the victim of a racist attack. And Then shortly afterwards, 11.20pm, Gertpreet calls 9.09 and we have the recording of that. And then shortly afterwards, 11:37, the police arrive. But instead of immediately treating Novak and believing Novak truthfully telling the police officers that he's been stabbed. All right, just step back a little bit for me.

[Chris Hobbs]

Someone flagged East Down. All right, let's get you out of there, shall we?

[Matt Dathan]

Grab his other arm. A minute after arriving, the police handcuff him and arrest him on suspicion of racial assault and read out his rights.

[Chris Hobbs]

At the moment, you are under arrest. That's for assault. So you do not have to say anything may harm a defense if you do not make your mind questioned. So I'm talking to you later. A line of court. Anything you do say may be given an evidence. All right?

[Matt Dathan]

But he's repeatedly telling officers, as we see in the body cam footage, that he's been stabbed. He repeatedly says, I think about 11 times. I can't breathe, and says he needs an ambulance.

[Chris Hobbs]

You've been stabbed. Whereabouts? Don't think you have, mate.

[Matt Dathan]

Hand.

[Chris Hobbs]

Put the hand in the cuff, mate.

[Matt Dathan]

Officers finally start performing CPR on Novak after realizing he is seriously unwell. And they discover he has a stab wound on his chest. Several stab wounds.

[Manveen Rana]

Are we able to get an ambulance, please?

[Matt Dathan]

His pupils aren't even reacting. And then it takes several more minutes to. Before Diguo himself was arrested for attempted murder. And then 37 minutes past midnight on December 4th, Henry is very tragically declared dead. So within barely an hour, he's been stabbed and declared dead. And a pathologist later found that more than 2 liters of blood was found in his chest cavity.

[Manveen Rana]

Matt, six months on, it's gone through court, Digwa has been found guilty. Earlier this week, he was sentenced to life in prison. But since then, the news around this case has just blown up.

[Matt Dathan]

It's dominated the political week in Westminster, but, I mean, I was getting messages last week from MPs and others warning about how this case was going to blow up politically once the sentence had been handed down. It's gone far beyond Westminster as well. It's one of the main topics that is trending and being chatted about on various different social media platforms. And it's also engaged yet again, the mind and the keyboard of Elon Musk and lots of people in America on the right wing. So, yes, yet another incident on the streets of the UK that has gone global with lots of claims, counterclaims Political rows and also a lot of misinformation that has led to one former police officer having to go into hiding.

[Manveen Rana]

One aspect that's drawn a lot of anger has been the police's own guidelines on how officers should respond to incidents like this and to all crime in general. Really, just talk us through the guidance. What does it actually say?

[Matt Dathan]

So this guidance was published in March 2025. It was. The National Police Chiefs Council had put out a page on its website titled its anti racist commitment, which was an updated, a brief update on its race action plan that had been published a couple of years earlier. And the guidance said officers should respond to individuals and communities according to their specific needs, circumstances and experiences with understanding that these will be racialized and with the aim of reducing harm. It does not mean treating everyone, quote, the same or being colorblind brackets. Racial equality, the guidance said. And it also warned officers that they should be aware of the risk that the police criminalize people and that arrest and charge rates should be made equal between groups, even though levels of criminality are different. It caused a bit of a controversy last year because it came in the middle of another row about alleged two tier sentencing guidelines that have been published by the Sentencing Council. And it just so happened that actually Shaban Mahmood, who was the Justice Secretary at the time, responded to these guidelines, which had been first raised by Robert Jenrick, who had at the time was shadow Justice Secretary and created a big political storm about claims that judges were working on guidelines that instructed them to treat people from ethnic minorities differently from others in order to equalize racial outcomes amongst different ethnic groups.

[Manveen Rana]

And, you know, huge questions are being asked about whether it's fair to decide that you've got to try and make arrest rate and charge rates equal between different groups when obviously we know that different groups are more or less likely to commit particular crimes. I mean, it would be as mad as saying you should be arresting as many women for online grooming crimes as you are men, when that isn't, you know, that isn't what you're actually seeing in real life.

[Matt Dathan]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think that's how a lot of people read the guidance. But I don't think the guidance was instructing officers to try and equalize racial outcomes in that way. But it caused a lot of controversy and it led on Tuesday night to the Home Secretary, well, describing it as clumsy. And the National Police Chiefs Council have since vowed to review the guidance and made clear that it wasn't formal policy, wasn't part of formal training, but was part of its anti racism commitment.

[Manveen Rana]

So while people are asking questions about that National Police Chief's Council, NPCC guidance, we also learned that there was separate guidance that had been put out by the Hampshire and Isle of Wight Constabulary which would cover this part of Southampton where the crime took place. Tell us about that.

[Matt Dathan]

Yes, Hampshire and Isle of Wyke, Sudbury. It has its own, I mean each police force has its own and publishes own race action plan stemming from the national plan. And in this forces racial action plan, it advises its officers to understand the impact, trauma and history of policing ethnic minorities. And so yet again, this, it sparked questions of whether the police force is treating people from ethnic minorities in the same way with equal treatment as others, and sparked a debate about whether this kind of anti racism guidance should be, should exist and should be scrapped.

[Manveen Rana]

Aside from the guidance on how to police, the other questions that are being asked are actually about the laws around carrying knives. Tell us a bit about the argument there.

[Matt Dathan]

Successive governments have introduced increasingly restrictive rules and laws about the possession of knives. There are exemptions for people who can carry certain weapons for religious reasons. But it's very clear that. And the Sikh Federation put out a statement on this that the weapon that Vikram Digwell was carrying and used to stab Henry Novak with would not qualify from the exemption. It was too long. It wasn't a religiously protected kirpan, which Sikhs are allowed to carry. It certainly wasn't blunt. But again, it did spark a bit of a debate about whether there should be exemptions. And Reform UK have come out. I think they're the only political party that have committed to banning the religious exemption. But the protections are, and the exemptions are very limited. And it's quite clear in this case, if he had been stopped by police in the street, for example, he would have, by the law, been arrested for possession of an illegal weapon.

[Manveen Rana]

Yeah, I mean, I have to say I'm from the Sikh community and I'd never seen a knife like that before. A standard kirpan is sort of a blunted, symbolic blade, I guess. So this really is not standard. All of this controversy and the protests and quite violent ones since then that have broken out are raising questions about the policy around policing, about how race issues are dealt with, as well as about knife crime. And that comes with a backdrop of, you know, quite a history of the police and racism. Just remind us a bit about why so many of these policies have emerged and why there are guidelines on how to handle different racial groups.

[Matt Dathan]

Well, yes, I mean, I guess ever since the murder of Stephen Lawrence, the mercphersman Report found institutional racism in the police, there's been increasingly a focus on driving out racism. I guess the most kind of relevant and recent moment was the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis in the US and actually going back to the Southampton case and what you mentioned about the Hampshire and unworked Sudbury. In their guidance they actually describe this as a quote, pivotal moment for policing in the uk, driving the need for change, even though it happened in the US and there is a sort of growing belief, I guess. And Jack Straw, the former Home Secretary, actually expressed this in the Daily Telegraph today in which he said that he thinks the drive to root out racism in UK policing has gone too far and actually gone the other way. And actually there is a question about whether actually police forces are and police officers are instructed to police our communities equally. And that has led to the debate and claims of two tier policing where people claim that the police are treating ethnic minorities differently to other people.

[Manveen Rana]

Coming up will be talking to a former Special Branch officer on what it's like to arrive on the scene of a crime like this as a member of the police. That's in just a moment.

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[Manveen Rana]

That's Chris Hobbs, a retired Metropolitan Police officer. He was at the met for 32 years.

[Chris Hobbs]

So in my time really at Southall, I got to know a huge number of people, even though I was in plainclothes, and a huge number of people got to know me. And I think over the years I was with Southall in just about every crisis that it encountered.

[Manveen Rana]

And for people who don't know the area, we should say Southall is a place where about a quarter of the population is Sikh. It has huge gurdwaras, these places of worship for the Sikh community. Did you have difficulty policing the Sikh community, given the exemptions in terms of carrying weapons? Was that ever a problem?

[Chris Hobbs]

No, no, it wasn't. But shortly after I retired, I got a message from the Sikh temple, the biggest Sikh temple in the country, in Havelock Road. Would I go down there on a Sunday, which is their day of religious observance? I went down there and they very kindly presented me with a ceremonial sword.

[Manveen Rana]

Oh, really?

[Chris Hobbs]

Yeah, for work that I'd done previously, so they hadn't forgotten, which I was tremendously honored. And I'm looking at it now.

[Manveen Rana]

Chris, you clearly have so many years of policing, very difficult crime scenes under your belt, taking you to this horrific case, the case of Henry Novak. Just describe for us what is it like as a policeman to arrive on. On the scene for an incident like that?

[Chris Hobbs]

It is very difficult, I have to say, because what you have to do is basically make what we would call a dynamic risk assessment, where you've got to assess everything that's going on and you also have to be very aware of your own safety and the safety of people around you, including the victim, and to try and make some sort of assessment of what had occurred when passions, of course, are running extremely high and people are shouting at you, and then you're trying to have to try and make sense of it all. And it's not easy.

[Manveen Rana]

Yeah. I mean, because of the video footage of that moment, we've all been able to see and assess the police's performance as they arrive. And in those first few minutes, what did you as somebody with your experience

[Chris Hobbs]

make of it, I think I should have to say that I read the judge's views first before I saw the video. So it was interesting that in the judge's sentencing comments that he made, there was absolutely no criticism of the police officer whatsoever. He appreciated the difficulty that the police officer or the police officers found the fact that the blood wasn't visible through Henry's clothing because he was wearing dark clothing and it was dark. So when I read that, I thought it was a fair assessment.

[Manveen Rana]

I mean, it is horrifying knowing the details of the injuries and what Henry was going through. There are probably policing procedures around improvements to the first aid process that might come out of this. One of the other things that people are calling for, though, is looking at the guidelines that have been issued to the police and whether they were influencing the way the police behaved, whether there was, you know, what people are calling a two tier police system. What do you make of that?

[Chris Hobbs]

Personally, I don't believe it. I think the officer was dealing with the situation as he saw it. If we want to look at it, generally, two tier policing at the moment has become the fashion for those on the political right. But everyone complains from right to left from various ethnic groups that there is two tier policing. They all claim that the police are guilty of two tier policing against them. I think when police turn up to these events, they would normally treat everyone the same. If you're a white victim of knife crime and you're lying there, or if you're a black victim of knife crime lying there, or if you're an Asian victim of knife crime and you are lying there, police will do their best for you. They will try and save your life. If they can't save your life, what happens, and it's very rarely referred to, is that if the patient or the victim is conscious, that police officer will then try and offer some comfort, even though it's clear to the officer that there's no more can be done for that person. What is sad is that didn't happen to Henry and what needs to happen now is to make sure that that situation can never, ever happen again. But by and large, I don't accept this two tier policing. It is something that really does again affect the morale of officers, which at the moment is crashing through the floor anyway. And this incident will make it. I don't think it can fall any further, but it won't help the current situation or the fact that officers are hemorrhaging out of the police service.

[Manveen Rana]

Yeah, Chris, you Mentioned that a lot of people think there's a two tier system and people think it for completely different reasons. So it is hard to know how seriously to take those criticisms. But people have been talking about specific guidelines issued by the npcc, issued by the Hampshire and Isle of Wight Constabulary, which would have governed the actions of this police force, which talked about not really treating people the same, but sort of treating them differently and understanding that there was sort of a difference between communities. Do you think that might have caused confusion on the scene here?

[Chris Hobbs]

I'm not sure that it did, to be quite honest, but at the same time, I'm not sure that this guidance is particularly wise. Part of the problem is that officers do feel that they are walking on eggshells to a certain extent. In allegations of racism are easy to make against police officers. Of course, once they're made, that can cause a whole lot of trouble for those officers, which can go on for months or years before they're exonerated or not.

[Manveen Rana]

At the end of this week, you know, we've seen effectively riots on the streets of Southampton, we've seen the police come under fire. Where does it leave the police force? And for that matter, the Sikh community, which you've had so much contact with,

[Chris Hobbs]

as far as the police service are concerned, they feel vulnerable. It wasn't just the riot that occurred, it was what went with it. Now, what you had on social media were attempts to identify the officers who were involved in that particular incident. So you've got all this going on and then of course you remember Wayne Cousins and David Carrick? Yeah, you've got this business of collective smearing, as I call it. So every police officer is effectively smeared as being a rogger. And then you got the Sikh Federation basically put out a statement saying, look, please don't collectively smear us. So I think the Sikh community all of a sudden felt that they too were being collectively smeared because of the actions of Digwa and his brother. So I think that that's an unfortunate byproduct. Now, whether that's gonna. Whether that stigma or collective smearing is going to stay, only time will tell. I think there's been some indications that Sikhs have been racially abused in the street because of what's happened. So, yeah, I think that's a real hammer blow to the Sikhs. So I think I've always felt well integrated into UK society generally and well thought of. And they're also, of course concerned that they're religious symbol isn't taken away from them. Again, it's a byproduct of this awful tragedy.

[Manveen Rana]

Matt, there's been a huge political row over this story we heard from the Policing Minister earlier this week. What has she said about the guidance?

[Matt Dathan]

Sarah Jones said that the guidance is clumsy and wrong and should be reviewed quickly, while also saying that the National Police Chiefs Council and the College of Police in which draw up the training and the guidance that police officers should follow, while also insisting that they are independent. But clearly the political circumstances around the fallout from Henry Novak's case will lead to changes in the way that police officers are told to police and treat people from different ethnic minorities in the uk.

[Manveen Rana]

So there will be changes to the guidance now?

[Matt Dathan]

Well, I mean, the NPCC have committed to reviewing the guidance and I can't see that the guidance will remain unchanged.

[Manveen Rana]

And the Chief Constable of Hampshire Police has also come out and apologised.

[Matt Dathan]

Yes. On Wednesday the Chief Constable of the force issued an apology for the actions of his officers.

[Chris Hobbs]

We are apologising and have apologised for the fact that Henry was arrested and that he was handcuffed at that time. You know, we are apologising for that and we're very sorry for that.

[Matt Dathan]

But denied allegations of two tier policing.

[Chris Hobbs]

I would refute that. I would say absolutely not. I see officers day in, day out on the grounds serving without fear or favour all our communities. And I think that's the case nationally.

[Matt Dathan]

And that was also what Sir Keir Starmer said.

[Chris Hobbs]

Mr. Speaker, I don't believe there's two

[Matt Dathan]

tier policing in this country and Shakir Starmer, in saying that has actually gone much further, I think, than some of his colleagues. I mean, Shabana Mahmood faced quite a lot of questions in the comments on Tuesday about two tier policing. And at no point did she say what Starmer said, which outright rejecting it. And Sarah Jones also didn't reject that term. And I think they are treading a careful line because they recognise that there were lots of questions here about the way in which officers treated Henry Novak and responded to the case on the ground. And obviously they can't go too far because there is an independent investigation into the officers. And so I think we have to wait until that is concluded before the government may or may not go much further.

[Manveen Rana]

So Matt, what happens next?

[Matt Dathan]

So there's the independent police conduct investigation which will determine whether the officers are guilty or not guilty of misconduct, whether they acted on in line with their training, etc. And the practices. There's further court cases around perpetrator victim Digwa and also some of his family members still to come relating to the possession of knives, etc. Keir Starmer is meeting the father of Henry Novak, Mark Novak, in Downing street on Thursday night. And then there's likely to be further unrest that we saw on Tuesday night. And then there's likely to be further political fallout because of Starmer's decision to attack Nigel Farage, prime minister's questions yesterday for creating division and grievance and capitalizing on the murder of Henry Novak for political gain.

[Manveen Rana]

And Matt, you mentioned Henry Novak's family. You know, we've all just heard about this case over the last week. They've been living with the tragedy of it since December. What do they want to see happen now?

[Matt Dathan]

Well, they made very clear in the statement that they don't want their son's murder to be used to create division in society.

[Chris Hobbs]

We want to use Henry's heartbreaking story to make change for the better. We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. We want his story to make our streets safer for everyone.

[Matt Dathan]

I think they want their concerns about the way in which their son was treated by police officers, dealt with, investigated. And then they want their son's murder to lead to a change in the way that police carry out their duties and make sure that they treat everyone fairly.

[Chris Hobbs]

No other family should experience the heartbreak and horror of losing a child to knife crime. Finally, I want Henry to know, wherever he is, we are so proud of him and we love him beyond words. Thank you.

[Manveen Rana]

That was Matt Dathan, home affairs editor at the Times, and Chris Hobbs, a retired police officer. The producers today were Olivia Case, Colette Fountain, and Sophie McNulty. The executive producers were Kate Lamball and Edward Drummond. And sound design and theme composition were by Maliceto. Thanks for listening. I know it's not an easy topic. And apologies, too, for my croaky voice. We'll be back as usual tomorrow to listen in.

[Chris Hobbs]

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