When Andrew met Mandelson

Summary

The Story – “When Andrew Met Mandelson”

Podcast by The Times | Date: May 7, 2026 | Host: Manveen Rana | Guest: Hugo Daniel, Sunday Times reporter

Episode Overview

This episode examines the unlikely origins and evolution of the relationship between Andrew Mountbatten Windsor (formerly Prince Andrew) and Peter Mandelson, tracing its genesis through a major NSPCC (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children) campaign in the late 1990s. The podcast investigates their social and professional entanglements, including their mutual association with Jeffrey Epstein, and reflects on what their story reveals about power, influence, and elite networks in modern Britain.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The NSPCC Campaign and Initial Meeting

• Launch of the NSPCC Full Stop Campaign: In 1999, the NSPCC set out to eradicate child cruelty, aiming to raise £250 million, backed by high-profile figures (03:10).
• Andrew as Chair, Mandelson as Vice Chair: Both were selected due to their influence, despite Mandelson’s recent government resignation for a loan scandal (11:48).
  • Notable Quote (Andrew, paraphrased from Hello magazine, 1999):

    “As a father of two young children, I simply could not sit back and do nothing. Hopefully in 20 years’ time, everyone will be able to pat themselves on the back.” (03:40)

• First Meeting: Their initial encounter was at a lunch in Prince Andrew’s private apartment at Buckingham Palace, organized by Giles Pegram, then Director of Fundraising at the NSPCC (03:10, 13:28).

2. Parallel Social Ascendancies & Shifts

• Mandelson’s Past Republicanism: In 1981, he was involved in a “Republican away day” boycott of Prince Charles’s wedding, highlighting his changing stance towards the monarchy (07:24).
• Mandelson’s Shift to Royal Circles: By the late 1990s, Mandelson had developed relationships with senior royals, notably Prince Charles and Princess Margaret, becoming a key connector between New Labour and the monarchy (08:31–10:28).
  • Notable Quote (Hugo Daniel):

    “He’s adaptable to the extreme, a chameleon almost… He seems to be attracted to power and wants to be in the thick of it” (10:49).

3. Emergence of the Epstein Connection

• Infamous Photograph and Scandal: The recently surfaced 1999 photo shows Andrew and Mandelson, both in bathrobes, flanking Jeffrey Epstein at Martha’s Vineyard (04:31, 06:04).
  • Epstein was not a convicted pedophile at the time; his conviction came in 2008.
• Origins of Their Friendships with Epstein:
  • Andrew: Met Epstein in 1999 through Ghislaine Maxwell; records show Andrew on Epstein’s jet in February 1999 (15:31).
  • Mandelson: Claims his first meeting with Epstein was at Martha’s Vineyard with Lynn Forrester; described being “entranced” (15:31–16:17).
• Association with Ghislaine Maxwell: Both men had independent connections to Maxwell, who later became a central figure in the Epstein scandal (19:00).

4. Mutual Benefits: Access and Influence

• Why Andrew and Mandelson Were Useful to Epstein:
  • Andrew’s friendship offered Epstein A-list access to royal functions (Sandringham, Balmoral, major royal birthday parties) and social validation among the elite (23:13).
  • Mandelson’s government roles and proximity to the Royals made him a sought-after contact for Epstein’s own networking (24:14).
  • Notable Quote (Hugo Daniel):

    “If we look at it now cynically, you’ve gotta say that Epstein must have thought Mandelson is going to be a very useful friend to have.” (24:14)

• Influence on British Politics: Mandelson later helped secure Andrew’s role as UK Special Representative for Trade and Investment despite reservations in Whitehall, reinforcing how mutual benefit and advocacy shaped outcomes (27:41).
  • Notable Quote (Hugo Daniel):

    “If it weren’t for Mandelson’s advocacy, it [Andrew’s appointment] would never have happened.” (27:41)

5. Reflections and Aftermath

• Legacy of the NSPCC Campaign: While Giles Pegram, campaign organizer, is proud of the campaign’s achievements, he is now deeply troubled by Andrew and Mandelson’s involvement with Epstein (31:06).
  • Notable Quote (Giles Pegram via Hugo Daniel):

    “He says he’s horrified… if he had known what he knows now, he would never have appointed Andrew as chair nor Mandelson as vice chair.” (31:06)

• NSPCC’s Official Statement: The charity denounces the revelations about Epstein and calls for accountability for all involved; no record of Epstein donating to the campaign (32:14).
  • NSPCC Statement:

    “The appalling revelations that have continued to come to light… have exposed a world of power, privilege and wealth, where vulnerable women and girls were ruthlessly targeted…” (32:14)

6. Broader Themes: Power, Networks, and Consequences

• Analysis of Elite Networks: Investigating these personal relationships highlights the interwoven nature of British power, emphasizing how ambition, adaptability, and mutual benefit draw establishment figures together (33:20).
  • Notable Quote (Hugo Daniel):

    “Epstein saw people like Andrew and probably Mandelson as trophies… they elevated his social standing in the global elite.” (33:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [03:40] Andrew in 1999:

  “As a father of two young children, I simply could not sit back and do nothing. Hopefully in 20 years’ time, everyone will be able to pat themselves on the back.”

• [10:49] Hugo Daniel on Mandelson:

  “He’s adaptable to the extreme, a chameleon almost… He seems to be attracted to power and he seems to be… want to be in the thick of it.”

• [24:14] Hugo Daniel on Epstein’s motivations:

  “If we look at it now cynically, you’ve gotta say that Epstein must have thought Mandelson is going to be a very useful friend to have.”

• [27:41] Hugo Daniel on Andrew’s trade envoy appointment:

  “If it weren’t for Mandelson’s advocacy, it would never have happened.”

• [31:06] Giles Pegram via Hugo Daniel:

  “He says he’s horrified… if he had known what he knows now, he would never have appointed Andrew as chair nor Mandelson as vice chair.”

• [32:14] NSPCC statement:

  “The appalling revelations… have exposed a world of power, privilege and wealth, where vulnerable women and girls were ruthlessly targeted…”

• [33:20] Hugo Daniel’s reflection:

  “…Epstein saw people like Andrew and probably Mandelson as trophies… they gave him legitimacy… an entrance to this elite network and he exploited it.”

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Important Timestamps

• [01:17–02:11] – Introduction to the NSPCC campaign and its high-profile launch
• [03:10–03:40] – Origins of Andrew and Mandelson’s friendship
• [04:31–06:04] – The infamous 1999 photo and association with Epstein
• [07:24–10:28] – Mandelson’s journey from republican to royal confidant
• [11:48–13:28] – How Andrew and Mandelson were brought into the NSPCC campaign
• [15:31–19:00] – How Andrew, Mandelson, and Epstein entered each other’s orbits; role of Ghislaine Maxwell
• [23:13–25:29] – The mutual benefits of the elite triangle: influence on charity, politics, and access
• [27:26–30:27] – Andrew’s trade envoy role, Mandelson’s advocacy, and professional overlaps
• [31:06–33:20] – Reflections from campaign organizers and current positions of NSPCC
• [33:20–35:22] – Broader takeaways about power networks, reputation, and the impact of hindsight

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Summary

This episode of "The Story" provides a revealing look into the early friendship of Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and Peter Mandelson, their deepening connections, and the role of elite social networks in shaping outcomes at the highest levels of British society. Through exclusive insights, archived records, and the voices of those involved, the investigation uncovers how ambition, adaptability, and mutual exploitation allowed figures like Jeffrey Epstein access to the heart of the UK establishment—with repercussions still reverberating decades later. The story serves as a cautionary tale about the dangers of unchecked power, the seductions of status, and the catastrophic costs of poor judgment.

Transcript

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[Manveen Rana]

From the Times and the Sunday Times. This is the story. I'm Manveen Rana. There's a certain irony to how this story begins.

[Hugo Daniel]

In 1999, the NSPCC, which is the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, set up a big campaign, I think maybe their biggest ever, which was to eradicate child cruelty within 20 years and to raise £250 million.

[Manveen Rana]

That's Hugo Daniel, a news reporter at the Sunday Times. He's been looking back at that NSPCC campaign from the late 90s. It was a big deal, backed by a slew of celebrities and featuring a famous and rather shocking TV advertising.

[Hugo Daniel]

Your brainless, you're stupid, you're no soul of mine.

[Manveen Rana]

It's an unlikely backdrop for a friendship between two well connected establishment figures to begin. But then this was a campaign that attracted the great and the good.

[Hugo Daniel]

There was a big launch at the Theatre Royal. Celebrities were there. Prince Andrew was there. He was the chair of the campaign. He does a speech about the scourge of child abuse and how he's a father of two children himself. In launching this 250 million pound campaign today, I am prepared to stand firm and be counted as a father. I'm a parent of young children. Together we must ensure that we take the responsibility for our actions. There's other celebrities there. There's Emma Bunton, the Spice Girl, Cilla Black, Andrew Lloyd Webber, Tony Blair. Peter Mandelson was there and we know Mandelson was selected as a vice chair.

[Manveen Rana]

Prince Andrew, as he was known then, was the chair of this campaign against cruelty to children. And Peter Mandelson was vice chair. This was how they met.

[Hugo Daniel]

I spoke to Giles Pegram, who was director of fundraising at the NSPCC at the time. And he recalled what we think is the first meeting between Andrew and Peter Mandelson at Buckingham Palace. It was in Prince Andrew's private apartment and they had a lunch meeting. The way Giles remembers it is that they greeted each other like they hadn't met before. So the body language indicated it was their first meeting.

[Manveen Rana]

Two people adept at using their social connections as a currency come together to help end child abuse.

[Hugo Daniel]

Andrew gave this interview to hello magazine in October 1999. He's on the front cover. Tempe of every copy goes towards the nsbcc. In the interview he tells the interviewer, as a father of two young children, I simply could not sit back and do nothing. And then he goes on to say, hopefully in 20 years time, everyone will be able to pat themselves on the back.

[Manveen Rana]

27 years later, far from mutual back slapping at having ended the scourge of child abuse, both figures are now mired in scandal for their association with a man who would come to be known as the 21st century's most notorious pedophile. They both deny any criminal wrongdoing in their connections with Jeffrey Epstein, a man they met as they were launching this campaign.

[Hugo Daniel]

It turns out that in 1999, a photograph was taken of Jeffrey Epstein sitting on a wooden deck in Martha's Vineyard in America with Peter Mandelson and Prince Andrew either side of him, both in their dressing gowns or bathrobes. In 1999, Jeffrey Epstein was not a convicted pedophile. He was not convicted until 2008. But looking at it now, it's raised questions about how well these three men knew each other and when they got to know each other.

[Manveen Rana]

So what do we now know about the friendship between Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and Peter Mandelson? And what can it tell us about how power and influence work in modern Britain? The story today, when Andrew met Mandelson, Hugo Peter Mandelson and Andrew Mountbatten Windsor have been making front pages for much of this year in terms of their relationships with the convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. What we haven't heard much about until now is their relationship with each other. You have been digging into this. Why was it of such interest to you?

[Hugo Daniel]

Yeah. So a few weeks ago, this photograph emerged from the Epstein files. The millions of documents released by the U.S. justice Department related to the to the dead convicted child sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. This picture showed Epstein on this wood slatted deck with Prince Andrew sitting one side, Peter Mandelson on The other hand, Andrew and Mandelson are wearing white bathrobes in the photo. It was a big story in the uk. It was a big story. It was on all the front pages. I mean, both have been mired in scandal for their friendships with Epstein. Andrew's been stripped of his royal titles, Mandelson sacked as the UK's ambassador to the US. Both were then arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office in February and remain under investigation. But this photo coming out, after all that, we'd never seen them together with Epstein, Andrew Mandelson and really the fact that Andrew Mandelson had a friendship, clearly a cozy one, because they're in bathrobes, appearing to be on the same holiday. We wanted to find out more about the origins of this friendship and thought tracking it back to its beginnings could be quite fascinating.

[Manveen Rana]

So take us back to the beginning. We understand they became, or certainly acquaintances in the 1990s. Just tell us, what is Peter Mandelson doing at this point? And is he. Has he always been a big royalist?

[Hugo Daniel]

No. So what was interesting was when I started looking at it, Peter Mandelson, in fact, appeared to have once been a Republican. So on Prince Charles wedding day to Diana in 1981, Mandelson and a group of Labour activists boycotted the wedding and took a boat to Boulogne, France, in what they called a Republican away day. It was a sort of a photo stunt. In fact, Harriet Harman, then working for the National Council of Civil Liberties, took the photo. It was, I guess, a bit of fun, but it showed that, you know, Mandelson, who's shown interest in communism as a young man, is not a royalist at this stage. That's in 1981, but yeah, I mean, later, obviously this changes and he becomes somebody who's close connections to the royals

[Manveen Rana]

and talk us through that process. So by the 1990s, post the election in 1997, Peter Mandelson, a key architect of New Labour, goes into government with Tony Blair and at this point seems to be exposed much more to royal circles.

[Hugo Daniel]

Yeah. So Fast forward from 81, 1989, I find the first meeting between Mandelson and Charles Mandelson gets to a reception at Kensington Palace. Tom Shabir, who was director of Charles Charity, the Prince's Trust, was also a good friend of Mandelson's from time they spent together on an organization called the British Youth Council. He introduces them there. He said before that there was a real rapport between them. And then fast forward again to 1992, we hear Mandelson's got some newspaper columns at the time and he speaks about the royals in them. He sort of seems to use them to almost give Charles PR advice. There's a headline in 1992 in the Times which he says to Charles, let a new image rise from the ashes after his split from Diana. You get to 1997 when Labour's into power, Mandelson's appointed minister without portfolio, and within weeks, Charles has met him and invited him to Highgrove for a private lunch with him and Camilla. So for this story, I read different books, autobiographies and biographies from the time. And in Mandelson's own autobiography, he writes about how at this lunch at Highgrove, Charles walked him around the garden, apparently unburdened himself to him. And Mandelson says he told Charles that people had the impression he felt sorry for himself and was rather glum and dispirited. And he claims Charles thanked him for his frankness. So they seem to be developing some sort of friendship, just Charles and Mandelson. And then the day after Diana died, Mandelson was on the phone to Charles, he says, in his audience. So 1998, there's a diary piece in the Times where it reports how Mandelson was seen escorting his good friend Princess Margaret to a lunch in Mayfair for the widow of the baked bean millionaire, Jack Hynes. So he's become this vital conduit between New Labours, the New Labour government and the Royal family.

[Manveen Rana]

I mean, that is a remarkable transformation from Republican in 1981. So Republican, he leaves the country to make a point about it, to a decade later, befriending Prince Charles as he was then, having lunches and offering advice. What does that tell us, I suppose, about Peter Mandelson as a character?

[Hugo Daniel]

Well, I think it tells us that he's adaptable to the extreme, I think, and a chameleon almost. And he's obviously a very social person. I mean, Ian Maxwell, Ghislaine's brother, has said that he was a very social animal. So he's somebody who. He seems to be attracted to power and he seems to be. Want to be in the thick of it. Another thing that Charles Pegram said to me was it was no secret that Mandelson liked to be involved in big things and full stop, was a big thing. He was always. He was there, he was everywhere. He was. He was the man of the moment in many ways.

[Manveen Rana]

So Peter Mandelson is already befriending parts of the Royal family at this stage, in terms of his contacts with the Then Prince Andrew. How do they both end up being introduced and being selected for this NSPCC campaign? How does that all come together?

[Hugo Daniel]

Yeah, so that was one of the things I was trying to find out, and I was able to view some documents on this process. And what it seems is there was a steering committee formed in 1998 of wealthy, influential supporters of the NSPCC. And this was formed at a reception hosted by the then NSPCC president, Princess Margaret. And they began looking for a chair and vice chairs for the campaign. And Andrew was selected In, I think, October 1998. And we know Mandelson, Margaret's friend, was selected as a vice chair in 1999. I would think this would been very early that year. And this is despite his recent government resignation for a loan scandal.

[Manveen Rana]

It was last night, as he did the rounds of the TV studios, that Peter Mandelson realized that he'd become such a liability to the government, he'd done more than anyone else to fashion that he would have to resign.

[Hugo Daniel]

Then a little alarm bell should have gone off in my head and I should then have gone on and said to my permanent secretary, look, by the way, I have this loan. I am the Secretary of State. People might put those two things together and may feel that, you know, it's unacceptable. Now, I should have foreseen that, you know, he seems to have brushed that off by the time he's able to be selected as a vice chair at the nspcc.

[Manveen Rana]

I suppose it might even be an attempt by his friends to bring him a bit of respectability again after the scandal. Tell us a bit about Giles Pegram, the man who ends up becoming the conduit who introduces Andrew Mountbatten Windsor to Peter Mandelson. What is he like now and how does he remember that moment? Does he remember why he wanted them to come together?

[Hugo Daniel]

Yeah. So Giles, he's very nice man. He's very helpful for this story and very honest. And, I mean, he's 76 now. He doesn't work for the NSPCC anymore. He was there for 30 years. You know, this campaign was one of the highlights of his career and it did achieve a lot, namely the money it raised. It raised over 250 million in the end. But he. He remembers this meeting at Buckingham palace. And he immediately, when I spoke to him, said, yes, he remembers this clearly because it was a productive meeting, but because of Mandelson is why he remembers it. He remembers Mandelson was very strategic, asking probing questions. And after Giles had gone through all the exciting Things the Full Stop campaign was going to do and the projects it was gonna do. Mandelson comes in and says, what will this mean for the people of Hartlepool? And it was this question that he says transformed his thinking. It was a light bulb moment on the campaign for him. He thought, gosh, he's right. I've been talking too much about activities and not about the impact on people. And so that's why this sticks in his memory. And he even remembers that Mandelson was wearing brown socks. I mean, it's amazing that he remembers it so well, but he says it's because it had this impact on him in the campaign. And he puts that down to Peter Mandelson, who was a formidable operator.

[Manveen Rana]

This is a moment that's seared in his memory.

[Hugo Daniel]

Yeah.

[Manveen Rana]

So, Hugo, you've described this budding friendship between Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and Peter Mandelson around 1999. At the same time. There is this meeting where the full triumvirate come together, where both of them are pictured in bathrobes next to Jeffrey Epstein, who, you know, it's important to acknowledge was not a convicted pedophile at the time. That didn't come until much later, but there they are, all socializing. Tell us a bit about that. What do we know about how long they'd known him and how that unfolded?

[Hugo Daniel]

Yeah. So what we know is Prince Andrew, in his Newsnight interview, said he met Epstein in 1999. He said that Ghislaine Maxwell introduced them. I mean, there's records of Andrew on an Epstein jet in February 1999. So we think they met before this photo is taken. This isn't the first type meeting for Andrew and Epstein. But Peter Mandelson, in emails that have come out from the Epstein files, does say that the first time he met Epstein was on Martha's Vineyard, staying with a woman called Lynn Forrester. Mandelson has also written as well about how he was entranced the first time he met Epstein.

[Manveen Rana]

That photo has become infamous. What did you find out about, you know, where it was taken and how it came about?

[Hugo Daniel]

See, I wanted to try and find out more about when and where it was taken. It's still slightly unclear, but Mandelson said in an email in the Epstein files, I think it was at Martha's the first time I met Jeffrey staying with Lynn Forrester. So I used to be a freelance reporter in the US A few years ago, I had a conversation with Alan Dershowitz, who was one of Epstein's lawyers and a friend of his he has a place on Martha's Vineyard and he had told me he was at a party for sir evelyn de Rothschild's 68th birthday in August 1999 and he said Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein were at the party. So I remembered this and I spoke to Dershowitz again to ask him if he remembered if Mandelson had been there. And he did. He said he remembered Andrew and Mandelson being at the Rothschilds place. He didn't remember whether Mandelson went to the party but he said that Andrew and Epstein were at the party. I read lots of old press reports from the US at the time. It was quite a big deal. It's in a lavish tent on a lawn in Martha's Vineyard by the water. This tent was originally made for the King of Morocco. There's incredible detail in The American reports. 50 to 60 guests ate five course meals served by waiters dressed in turbans. Andrew and Bill Clinton played golf with Sir Evelyn Rothschild a couple of days before this party. He was President at the time. You know, Andrew and Mandelson had these mutual friends. They had Ghislaine Maxwell, who it appears that she may have been there and they were mutual friends of Lynn Forrester and her then boyfriend Sir Evelyn de Rothschild. Then a few weeks ago the Times published an interview with a former Epstein employee called Christine Kennelly. She said that she was ordered by Epstein and Maxwell to give massages to Andrew and Mandelson in Martha's Vineyard in 99. And she said the pair were perfect gentlemen. I mean, it's understood. Mandelson denies having a massage, I should say. But you know, there's people saying they were both there at the same time. So yeah, we don't know exactly when that photo was taken. I don't think it's taken at the party. I think it's taken around the same time. Lynn Forrester has said previously within the Times reported on the massages for Andrew and Mandelson that Epstein's never stayed at her residence and she wasn't in contact with him after 2000.

[Manveen Rana]

Hugo, you mentioned that Ghislaine Maxwell might have been there. We're not sure. And she is a thread that sort of pulls all three of these characters together. How well did she know each of them? Did she help in introducing them and bring them together?

[Hugo Daniel]

I don't think she did. What we know is when Mandelson became Labour's Director of Campaigns and Communications in 1985, sometime after that he became good friends with Ghislaine Maxwell. He was working as a consultant at her father Robert Maxwell's Mirror group. He was writing a column in the People newspaper. I've been told by others that Ghislaine Maxwell was, after finishing Oxford University, she was up in the Mirror offices quite a lot. She was there, she was asking for tickets for things and stuff from the showbiz desk. And Ian Maxwell, Ghislaine's brother, has said Ghislaine knew Peter because he was a very social animal and she was a very social animal. So as well. Andrew said it in the Newsnight interview that he met Ghislaine when she was at university and they go back a long way. So I think they probably met independently. Maxwell. But she was a great mutual friend of both of them, it seems, or at least, I mean, she was certainly great friends of Andrew and it sounds like she got on very well with Peter Mandelson.

[Manveen Rana]

What do you think the appeal would have been? Why would Peter Mandelson and Andrew Batten Windsor, why would they want to associate with a man like Epstein? What was his reputation at the time?

[Hugo Daniel]

So, yeah, I mean, I think we got to understand the main thing about Epstein was he was extremely rich and he had some very powerful friends, including President Clinton, apparently. He was a pretty charming person. I mean, there's millions of emails where people are sort of. They're trying to impress him, they want him to be happy with them. And it's bizarre, but he seems to have really, you know, made an impact on people.

[Manveen Rana]

Coming up, how did Jeffrey Epstein use both Mandelson and Andrew for their connections in the uk and how do the people who brought them together feel about it? Now, that's in just a moment.

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[Manveen Rana]

Hugo, you've been telling us how Peter Mandelson and Andrew Mountbatten Windsor both enter into Jeffrey Epstein's orbit in the late 90s. We can see that they're clearly struck by this very charming man who seems very rich and very well connected. What's in it for him? What sort of access do they provide him to the upper echelons of British society?

[Hugo Daniel]

Yeah, so I think that we can underestimate how prized his friendship with Prince Andrew was to Jeffrey Epstein. You know, he's the Queen's son, the Queen, at the time he was a member of the Royal family. This friendship got Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell invited to the Royal Palaces. They were both at the Dance of the Decades party, which was Andrew's 40th and the Queen Mother's 100th birthday and a couple of other royals birthday celebrations. In June 2000 they went to Sandringham. We know that in December 2000 they'd been to Balmoral. There's certainly a picture of them at Balmoral. So, yeah, I don't think you can underestimate for Epstein the validation it gave him having a prince as a friend. And it was something that he boasted to people about.

[Manveen Rana]

And Peter Mandelson, I suppose at this stage has just entered government in quite a very strong and influential position. Even though he was a minister without portfolio.

[Hugo Daniel]

He was briefly and then he was Business Secretary and then he lost that job because of the loan scandal. And then he was Northern Ireland secretary later in 1999, in October. Apart from Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, he's the third architect of New Labour. He's the closest member of the government to the Royal family. He must have seemed to Epstein like somebody he wanted to be friends with. I mean, for usefulness purposes. I mean, if we look at it now cynically, you've gotta say that Epstein must have thought Mandelson is going to be a very useful friend to have. I mean, and we know that a bit later on, by May 2002, Mandelson helped get Epstein into Downing street to meet Tony Blair, vouching he was a friend of mine to the Prime Minister Chief of Staff. There's a memo that came out written by a senior civil servant who briefed Blair about Epstein and I think it's quite telling what he said. He said he's a friend of Bill Clinton and Peter Manderson. The background on Epstein is he is very rich and close to the Duke of York. Peter says that Epstein now travels with Clinton and Clinton wants you to meet him. I mean, it shows you how Epstein was in Downing street meeting Blair and Blair said it was a brief meeting and he didn't meet him again, but he got to there. By May 2002 he was in Downing Street.

[Manveen Rana]

It is extraordinary when you realize just the reach of this one man who's able to call on Bill Clinton, get an entree into Downing street to be introduced as a friend of lots of very powerful people during all of this period. So from 1999, from the initial introduction to Jeffrey Epstein being invited into number 10 to meet Tony Blair, is the NSPCC still an ongoing campaign for both Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and Peter Mandelson? Are they still plotting over how to help the charity?

[Hugo Daniel]

Yeah, it's not clear, actually, when Mandelson's vice chairmanship ended. The NSPCC couldn't tell me. But we certainly know Andrew was a chair until 2004 and his contacts appear to have been very helpful. I mean, in October 2002, Bill Clinton was just out of office. He turned up at the Labour Party Conference in Blackpool with the actor Kevin Spacey. And when they arrived in the uk, Andrew arranged for them to have a tour of Buckingham palace with Ghislaine Maxwell, where everyone's seen that photo of Spacey sitting on the Duke of Edinburgh's throne and Maxwell on the Queen's. I mean, just after that, about two months later in December, Bill Clinton came to where was it? Merseyside, for an NSPCC Full Stop dinner and was the keynote speaker for the charity at the event. And Andrew was a special guest and made a speech. So, yeah, I mean, Clinton's always denied wrongdoing, by the way, and as previously said, he saw nothing and I did nothing wrong in terms of Epstein. But you can see the contacts and the impact they're having. Andrew, I mean, I'm sure the NSPCC at this stage must be delighted. I mean, I don't have any proof that Andrew was the person that got Bill Clinton to come to the event in December 2002. But, you know, they're both there and he's made these friends and it's. It is helping the campaign.

[Manveen Rana]

And aside from their cooperation over the nspcc, there are other ways in which both Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and Peter Mandelson, their paths are crossing in professional circumstances.

[Hugo Daniel]

Yeah. So in 2000, Andrew was lined up to be given the post of UK Special Representative for International Trade and Investment. His Royal Navy career is coming to an end. There were reservations about this at the time because of his playboy lifestyle. The Queen was keen for him to do it. The Duke of Kent had done it before for 25 years, quietly, and she wanted Andrew to have something to do. I think there's reports that Charles warned it was a disaster waiting to happen. But from what I can see, and what is borne out by several reports was it was Mandelson's advocacy that that helped Andrew get this position. There's a former UK security official told the Washington Post, many were quite unenthusiastic about Andrew him taking on the trade envoy role. If it weren't for Mandelson's advocacy, it would never have happened. That was earlier this year, that report. I mean, at the time there were reports that Mandelson played a pivotal role in getting him the job.

[Manveen Rana]

And Hugo, by this stage, you've got Peter Mandelson helping the then Prince Andrew become a trade envoy. He has now a whole circle, a whole network of trade content. He's learning a lot about different policies, often before they're announced. Peter Mandelson has been Business Secretary. He goes on to a bigger role at the EU as a commissioner. Does that make them even more useful as contacts to Jeffrey Epstein?

[Hugo Daniel]

It appears that way, certainly from the Epstein file emails, which have been under scrutiny since before and since their arrests for suspicion of misconduct in public office. What's interesting is I didn't find so many recorded meetings between them going forward now. But in 2007, Peter Mandelson is in his EU job for the government. Andrew is. They have a meeting in Brussels. And so I spoke to Alastair Watson, Andrew's private secretary, who was at that meeting, and I thought it was quite telling what he said to me, just because I asked him, well, you know, there's obviously lots of controversy over Andrew's time as trade envoy and what he got up to and do we know even all about it? And so I asked him about it and I said, you know, did you ever see anything that you weren't happy about that, you know, raised the alarm and he Said, you've got to remember two things at the time. It was the time I was there and that he, Andrew, had private time. I was in charge of his official program, delivering his official program, getting it all together. So his trade job. But Andrew was allowed his own time. And the only people that went with him on his own time were policemen who he always had. So anything he went to in private was private. You know, Andrew's trying to juggle his public, royal and government duties with his private relationship with Epstein at the same time.

[Manveen Rana]

Hugo, it is remarkable, having seen so much in the headlines about all three of these characters, to understand how far back this goes. You know, you began by telling us about that moment when this NSPCC campaign was set up. And Prince Andrew, as he was then describes how in 20 years time they'll all be patting themselves on their backs for what they've managed to achieve. As it is now, it's quite the opposite. Is there a sense, you know, with all the people you've spoken to for this investigation, some of the people who actually brought them together, how do they reflect on that now?

[Hugo Daniel]

Yeah. For Giles, the Full Stop campaign was one of his career defining achievements. It was a big, big deal. He says it gives him sleepless nights thinking about Mandelson and Andrew and their friendships of Epstein now and the fact that they were on the campaign. You know, he says he's horrified that on one visit he could be helping the nspcc. One moment this is Andrew and then going off with Jeffrey Epstein the next, said it gives him the horror. And if he had known what he knows now, he would never have been appointed chair and there had never been a meeting with Mandelson at Buckingham Palace. And this is the benefit of hindsight, but there's nothing he says he could have known at the time that would have caused him not to have Andrew as chair and Mandelson as a vice chair. And he's devoted 30 years of his career to preventing cruelty to children and first and foremost, he's had his concerns with the victims of Jeffrey Epstein and he sees that those crimes is unforgivable and nothing in the past can make them right.

[Manveen Rana]

Obviously, Peter Mandelson and Andrew Mountbatten Windsor have always denied any wrongdoing around this. How does the NSPCC reflect on what's happened?

[Hugo Daniel]

Yeah, so I asked the NSPCC about this story. I actually asked them if they knew whether Epstein ever donated to the Full Stop campaign. And they said there's no record of that. But what they told me was well, they gave us a statement and this is what they said. They said, the appalling revelations that have continued to come to light through the publication of the Epstein files have exposed a world of power, privilege and wealth, where vulnerable women and girls were ruthlessly targeted, exploited, trafficked and sexually abused. Jeffrey Epstein was at the centre of this criminal web, but it remains essential that anyone else involved in the abuse of women and girls is also held to account and faces justice. Our thoughts are, with all the victims in this terrible case, their voices must be at the centre of what happens next. So I thought that was a powerful statement from the NSPCC where they've said, you know, that the revelations around Epstein are just appalling and that the women and girls need to be heard. And, I mean, if you think about it, that's what this campaign was about.

[Manveen Rana]

Hugo, you've spent weeks looking into these networks. For you, what were the most startling revelations?

[Hugo Daniel]

I think what I found interesting was when I started looking at it the way Peter Mandelson had sort of gone from being a Republican to becoming close to the Royal Family and somebody who gave advice to Prince Charles and he became a friend of Prince Andrew's. And I think the story tells us a lot about the power of mutually advantageous relationships or friendships within these power networks. It goes back to what Paul Routledge, the journalist who wrote the biography Mandy, said about what he observed Mandelson seeing the royals as the ultimate extension of his network. I think when Manderson and Angie met Epstein, they must have thought, wow, this guy hangs out of Bill Clinton. This. He's got super rich, important friends in British and American society. It must have been intoxicating. And when you look at it now, 27 years later, so much awful things have been reported about Epstein and what he was up to, what Maxwell did, and more keeps coming out. We still don't seem to know everything at all in this. In this story. And it looks to me, and I think to a lot of people, that Epstein saw people like Andrew and probably Mandelson as trophies, you know, that they elevated his social standing in the global elite. They gave him legitimacy, they gave him an entrance to this elite network and he exploited it.

[Manveen Rana]

That was Hugo Daniel, news reporter at the Sunday Times. The producer today was Harry Stott. The executive producer was Tim Walker. Plate sound design and theme composition were by Malicetto. If you can do, leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.

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