Jack Murphy (3:17)

That's awesome. And you guys, you know, because you were in a military family, you guys grew up in Germany, right?

Joe England (3:24)

Yes. So about six months after I was born, we moved to Germany. So from about then until we. We were there for 10 years, but we did have a two year stint in between where we actually moved to Alaska. So the first time that I moved to the continental United States was when I was about 13 years old and we moved to Seattle, Washington, where my father would end up retiring at Fort Lewis McChord Base.

Jack Murphy (3:54)

And you and your brothers were very involved in soccer from growing up in Europe?

Joe England (4:01)

Yes. So when we lived in Germany, I think my father had, which I would always thank him for, is that instead of living on the American bases, he chose to live on the German economy. And Germany is just like a collection of small towns. And like over here you play soccer clubs. Well, in Germany you play for your town and a town that maybe have like a couple thousand people and maybe you. It's like only you could drive through this town in like a few minutes. That town soccer stadium would have practice fields, everything, and you would play for your town. So by the time we came to the United States, we were probably at least a year or two ahead of all the Americans we played with. And because of that, out of the five of us, four of us went to college on soccer scholarships.

Jack Murphy (4:47)

And I mean, it sounds like you were having a really good time too in college, you know, playing soccer. But really you had this accident, not your fault, of course, but got into this car accident that kind of like it did shape the rest of your life, I feel like.

Joe England (5:04)

Yeah, it definitely changed everything that I essentially had a plan for. I think I had delusions of grandeur that I was going to finish college, become a professional soccer player. But so I was driving home, this was my freshman year of college and was driving home. We were going. It was like 3:30 in the morning. We were going to my girlfriend's place who was attending U Dub, which is on the north side of Seattle, and we were on the south side of Seattle. I remember at one point in the drive, and then I woke up in a hospital bed and I was like, my, I had a. I believe it was a respirator in. So obviously I couldn't talk. I was basically couldn't move anything. And you know, I eventually when I come to my dad's there, I signal for him because I realize I can't talk. And then I ask him if my girlfriend was okay because she was in the car. Because I don't remember anything, just remember waking up, I'm in a hospital bed and I was just afraid that I'd killed her. And luckily what I wrote was like, where's Karen? And he's like, she's fine. And then I was like similarly relieved, passed out, woke up like 12 hours later. And then that's when my dad would tell me that I was in a head on car accident. Drunk gut driver going the wrong way down the freeway where we apparently I turned the car at the last second. We went headlight to headlight and then this swung around and all the power hit the left side of my car. Which pieces of car went through my elbow, cutting that in half. I have pieces of car that went into my arm and then it just kept traveling. 29 stitches on this arm, ruptured spleen, 29 staples to take that out. And then a brain hemorrhage which was obviously the worst injuries. And actually I still have contusions on my shin bones and other parts of my bones that even 21 years later are still visible. So the brain hemorrhage. I suffered a lot of brain damage. I was assessed to have degraded to a second grade math level, which math was actually my best subject. I attended a calculus, took the AP calculus exam in high school and had major speech problems, memory problems and yeah, I was a mess. And then tried to go back to school less than a month later and that did not end well. I dropped out within a week because.

Jack Murphy (7:23)

Of what we now know. I don't know if they were applying the term so much or if as much was understood, but I mean veterans know a lot about traumatic brain injury now and you had one before you went into the military and it sounds like it really affected you.

Joe England (7:40)

It did. And I was little and that was the hardest part of my recovery because physically most of all my injuries, with the exception of the brain hemorrhage, they just kind of patched me up and sent me on way and everything would recover. Like the elbow bone grew back, my abdominal wall obviously reconnected. But you know, I was, I was so frustrated because one, I didn't even know if my cognitive abilities would ever return. And then secondly, like what, what can I do about it. It's not like physical where I can, you know, I can go to the gym, start working out. Like, who knows what I can do? And then my family started blaming my girlfriend that it was her fault that we got hit by a drunk driver, because if I wasn't dating her, I wouldn't have been on that road. And so just all together. Then I got frustrated, and I was like, screw it. So six months after the car accident, I went to a recruiter. And then nine months later, nine months, I think it was nine months to the day or almost to the day. I shipped off for basic.

Jack Murphy (8:42)

So it is the lovely year of 2005, during the surge. And you walk in there, your body's still a mess, and they're like, we got something for you. No problem.

Joe England (8:52)

Yeah. So I tried to. Because obviously I saw the movie Green Berets when I was 10 years old with John Wayne. I was like, this is the. This is what you got to be. So try to do the 18x ray program. But obviously they do the whole full medical thing. And obviously you cannot hide this giant scar, which is 12 inches. Obviously, they learn. I have a splenectomy, but I didn't know anything about the process, so I didn't think it was going to be an issue. I was already back to normal running and everything. But it turned out that there's a list of things that disqualify you from Airborne Ranger and Special Forces, but one of the only things that disqualified you just from Special Forces is the absence of a spleen. And I, you know, I think I was told this was more of, like, an observation, but that this. This medical doctrine was based back in the Vietnam era. You know, it's the. It's a part of immune system, but it helps fight fevers, and that's really all that it does. And so. So when I got turned down with that, I tried to inquire with the recruiter, hey, can I get a waiver? Right? And he was like, yeah, no MEPs doctor is going to assume that risk. But randomly, he knew that there was a back route to get to Special Forces. And he told me, he's like, once you get there, you have a much better chance of getting the waiver once you're within a group. And I was like, well, how do I do that? And he was like, well, you can go be a linguist. And I was like, linguistic. I don't. I'm trying to be a green brain. Why would I be a linguist? Right? And he was like, well, you get to go to California for a year, learn a language, and you get your associate's degree. And when I heard California, I was like, okay, I like what you're saying. And so that's. That's what I end up going with. Got Persian, Farsi, did the course in a year, didn't roll back, actually passed. I actually almost maxed the test.

Jack Murphy (10:46)

That's awesome.

Joe England (10:46)

Despite all my cognitive abilities.

Jack Murphy (10:48)

Yeah, yeah.

Joe England (10:51)

And then. And that's when I submitted for my first airborne packet, which ended up becoming slight of an issue.

Jack Murphy (10:56)

Yeah, tell us about that.

Joe England (10:59)

So at the end of dli, so about a month or two before we were about to finish, that's when they're like, hey, if you want to go to group, you have to submit an airborne packet. And then you have to submit a part of that. You submit a packet that says, I'm volunteering for group, which a lot. I was surprised to find out that most linguists don't want to go to group. And of course, I would learn later on in life or later on in my career that as a linguist, there's no better job than being a saude. Absolutely no better job. So I do this airborne packet. I volunteer for group, but I still have to be approved. So as I am going to out process, after I passed my test and essentially graduated on my final day, I go in there and I haven't received my airborne packet. So I go in to go see the doctor to get my final signature for my own processing. And she's like, oh, and by the way, I have your airborne packet. I was like, okay, cool. She's like, you were rejected. And I'm like, I was rejected. She's like, yeah, because you had a brain hemorrhage, you are rejected from going to airborne. And I was admitted. Like, at first I was like, devastated. I was like, I will, like, what do I do? But then she puts the failed airborne packet on my medical records, which were not digital. You know, this is 2006. And then I start walking outside and I'm thinking about, like, what am I going to do? And then I look to my left and I see a trash can as I'm walking out and just hits me. And I just walk over. No, just. And I just turn the, you know, the medical record and I let the failed import package just slide right into the trash can. Yes. And then I PCs to San Angelo, Texas for the second part of our training, and I go in there to the medical facility and I'm like, I want to apply for an Airborne pack. So they give me airborne packet and they get to the part where it says, have you ever applied for your Airborne. Airborne this packet form. And I checked no, and then got to the part where have you ever had a brain injury or tbi? And I said nope. And I was approved two weeks later and I was. I learned that my first PCs after all my training and airborne training, I would be 5th Special Forces Group.

Jack Murphy (13:02)

Your attempts at misconduct here clearly allude to your capacity to be an army spy. I think you passed the test.

Joe England (13:12)

Yeah, that's actually. Yeah, well, you can actually, now that I think about it, that's an interesting thing that I will actually discuss about the particular part of the packet because at this point, and I can get into that later, but you know, at this point you obviously don't want to tell the military like everything because you'll get screwed. But when it came to the ISA packet, you were encouraged to actually tell them the truth. And actually in the portion of the packet, I'm probably getting ahead of myself, but they actually tell you that whatever you say will not go back to the regular army.

Jack Murphy (13:45)

I hope, I hope that's true.

Joe England (13:47)

Yeah. At least it was at the time.

Jack Murphy (13:50)

So you move on to the next phase of your training. And before we move on, I think we should. I'd like to ask you, for the viewers out there, the listeners, do you want to tell them what a SAD A is and what a sad A does?

Joe England (14:03)

Yes. So a SAD A is A. It stands for Special Operations Team Alpha. And at the time only linguists were allowed to be special operate or Sauds, if you were the signals. Because a linguist is actually a cryptological linguist. Right. So not only are you a language, but you actually have a siget parsh portion of your job. And that's the cryptological part. There's another MOS that goes alongside it and that's the cryptological analyst. And they at the time were only allowed to be Special operations Bravos or SOT Bs which are the analyst portions of that. So like Saudis were the collectors and saw it, you would send your signals information that you collected back to the sod Bs. But the interesting thing about, because every other linguist would be in some sort of facility, the NSA or some sort of fob, but Saudis were the close access signals collectors. So all the devices and everything that you were given and how you had to do stuff, you actually had to be on site with the teams. So during deployments, instead of being deployed with either the battalion element or the company element. All Saud A's were deployed with the teams and you were attached to an oda, which ended up being amazing because you, you spend your entire deployment as just an extension of essentially these ODAs and you get to, you know, sort of live that life as much as closely as you can.

Jack Murphy (15:37)

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Jack Murphy (22:17)

I guess we'll get into it a little bit, but would it be fair to say that one part of the job is offensively looking for the bad guys and also maybe part of it is also like force protection? Like I'm listening to the bad guys.

Joe England (22:31)

Absolutely. So that's actually how the Saudi job started because you know, before cell phones and everything like that, Saudis were basically force protection because they'd go out with the teams and obviously they would get on, you know, like the PRD 13 and all these radio interception devices and that's how they would detect if they were going to get ambushed or not, because usually there would be some sort of radio traffic like hey, they're coming up. So that was the job of saude. But then rolling into 2000 the early 2000s when SIGINT really started to go into the cell phone stuff like that. And that type of signal is actually short range. Like radios have a much longer range but cell phones, the way they talk to towers have a much shorter range. So what you end up having to be is so you ended up becoming not more just first protection. You actually became offensive at least especially in the intelligence roles. And it was the heyday of when we had the kings of the kingdom. There was less to no encryption. And it was like the wild wild west when it came to things were easy. They would later become much, much harder. And our job became. Luckily I had left at this point, but almost became later on obsolete as the technology upgraded from 2G to 3G and then 4G. And by the time we got to 5G there was, there was no more job, at least in that portion of it.

Jack Murphy (24:00)

And you get sent to the SADE at fifth group. And what is it like from there? I mean now you're kind of integrating with the teams going through the pre mission training and deployments are coming up.

Joe England (24:12)

Yep, yep. So we got, they, they chose which ODA that we would attach with first. So on my first deployment I technically we, we spent like half the deployment with one ODA and we spent the second half with a different oda. So the one that we were getting attached to first when we did our pre mission deployment training we were actually with them the entire time so we could really start to integrate with them. Because as you know, when you're running around in humvees because especially 2007, I think everybody else wasn't allowed to run around in Humvees except for the SF guys. And usually because they still needed guys back sometimes they could only man two Humvees. But with the Saud a team we always could have three. So they definitely used this as extra guns and you know, so we got a lot of pre mission deployment training and then I got, we actually went on the deployment and There was the 18 Zulu. His name was Boomer. And Boomer instantly took a liking to me. He was impressed with me. He learned that I being a Saud or being a linguist was not my original goal. I wanted to be an 18x ray. And you know, and when the battalion commander Bill Italian CSM did their, their visits to all the team houses during that deployment, he arranged for me to have a one on one meeting with both battalion commander and the battalion CSM about me potentially becoming an 18 series. And that interview went really well. The battalion CSM took it upon himself to research my waiver. Because at this point, between them, Boomer, they all felt that I would make a very good Green Beret, I guess, a good candidate for it. So they found out I needed a. It needed to be signed by a general officer, which everybody knows, or who doesn't know that the highest ranking officer in a group is a colonel. So it had to go above group. And you know, unfortunately, that waiver would end up. It would be approved by his deputy. But in between the week that the deputy needed to approve it and the general office needed to prove it, somebody died in the Q course, if I remember correctly, from a supposed snake bite, which they then was told. Then I was then told that the commander did not want to assume the risk for somebody who had a weakened or compromised immune system, I believe is the correct verbiage that they used.

Jack Murphy (26:40)

That must have been. Yeah, kind of a kick in the nuts. And then you, you went during, kind of like during. And as all of that is transpiring, you're also rotating back overseas with this team, right?

Joe England (26:54)

Say that one more time.

Jack Murphy (26:55)

That as. As all this, you know, this waiver submission is going through the process, you're also getting ready to deploy a second time with the team.

Joe England (27:03)

Yes, yes. So. So we came back. We went out for eight months, came back for six months because first group replaced us. And then we. But we knew before we went on this first deployment we were doing back to back deployments. So we had six months in between and two months. So one, I did a second waiver thinking that if I had stronger recommendations that they would prove it, but that was not to be the case. But during that training, I went to what was called Promidius Group at the time because it was done by the Promidius Group company. But it was a pilot course which would later become the advanced SOCOM. Advanced SOCOM's advanced GSM signal course. It was the pilot course for it. And during that training, that training was run by both Green and Orange operators and support personnel. And the course director was a former TFO command sergeant Major of A squadron. And at the end of those eight weeks, he pulled me aside on the last day where they were giving out the certifications. And he told me that he had heard about the issues of my waivers, how I couldn't get to SFAs. And he was like, hey, we've been really impressed with you. We think that you have what it takes. He made the joke of, why don't you skip JV and come straight to varsity? You know, would you want to be an operator? Right. And I was like, yes, that's exactly what I'm going to do. He's like, all right, here's the. Here's the recruiting information for at that time. The. For the recruiters that were doing operators. I believe they were separate at the time. And so I went and on the second deployment, that's when I started filling out this ridiculous 40 page application and submitted it, I think. Right. I finished it, like, right towards the end of the deployment. And yeah, in that packet you're told, and you're actually told by the recruiter to. You can reveal everything and they won't have any sort of ramifications. And at this time, this ended up being true for me because that's when I actually revealed that I had had some issues and the stuff that I had sort of hidden from the army and that I wasn't the saint. But apparently that worked because they approved my packet and I went to selection the following April for ISA operator selection.

Jack Murphy (29:44)

Before we jump into that, I just want to ask you, where was it that you deployed with this oda, if there's any interesting stories from that time that you'd like to tell.

Joe England (29:53)

Oh, absolutely. So both deployments were actually in the Diyala province of Iraq, which is.

Jack Murphy (30:02)

East.

Joe England (30:03)

Of Baghdad, but it's along the Iranian border. So you're really kind of on the edge of the world because there were no team houses east of us. It was us and then the Iranian border. But the second deployment was awesome for me because Boomer decided that he wanted me on his team to just be an extension of his team. And he told the battalion commander, I want Joe and Joe only. And if he's like, if you send the entire saude team, I don't want any of them. Right. And the battalion commander was like, all right, cool. You get just Joe. And I got to be the sole attachment to that team. And Boomer was awesome. The team was awesome. And they never treated me like a support personnel. Like, I almost felt like I was like 18 OJT. It was an amazing deployment. I was extension of that team. And to be honest, Boomer, even at certain times, even treated me as like one of the seniors, which I absolutely love and I will be grateful of to this day because it was probably one of my favorite deployments I ever had in my career.

Jack Murphy (31:11)

That's awesome. And so moving forward, we get into selection. I know there's some parts of it that they try to keep on the down low, but what are you allowed to Say, about the selection course, you know, it's.

Joe England (31:24)

It's very. So let's just say ISA selection was like, in a lot of things. Like, when they were created, right? They caught. They cloned a lot of things from Delta and they changed certain things, right? Like, I would say that CAG is probably slightly more physical. Ours is probably like more of a mental, you know, thing. But, like, you probably heard the difference between the walk and the long. A very movement. But it's not the quake, the 40 miles, it's slightly shorter than that. But it was. I think it was like, it's usually between four and five weeks. And it was the hardest part about, like, that style of selection is it's you. You don't have any negative or positive reinforcement. Like, nobody yells at you the entire time. And almost everything minus, like. Like a few days, everything is individual. So what I found was that especially from a psychological standpoint of view, this was the hardest type of selection you. The hardest type of selection you could go into. Because when you're getting yelled at and people are telling you to quit and you've got your buddies next to you, you kind of. Kind of sort of band on to each other and be like, you know what? F you. I'm not. I'm not gonna quit. Right? But in this environment, one, you're only given instructions once. And they do it completely stoic, right? Like, they just say, you know, they give you the instructions. You're basically giving the instructions once. And then they tell you to go, to do the best as you can, as fast as you can. They don't tell your times, they don't tell you if you've passed. The only reason you even know if you fail is, like, every day when you muster for an event, they tell you to get in these individual trucks. And then you quickly learn as people start getting kicked out, that if you ever get in a truck by yourself, it's not good, right? So, but. But because you don't. You really have to have this level of mental fortitude because nobody's telling you if you're doing well. Nobody's telling you if you're sucking. You just have to believe in yourself. And you just concentrate on the event and then just concentrate on the event in front of you. Don't think about, like, oh, we're at week two, week three, because you have no idea when this is going to stop. Like, everything, every portion of the selection, you have no idea when it's going to end. And when it does, it's this huge surprise. And then you're on to the next portion, which is you had like, it. It goes places that you never thought selections would go to. Like, it is probably one of. I would say it's a more unique selection than cags is because they sort.

Jack Murphy (34:07)

Of like, test you on some of the skills that they'd like operators in the unit to have. Right. To see how you respond under stress.

Joe England (34:16)

Yes. Yeah. Logical model. But they also want to implement. That unit right, like, that more kind of like operative type of, you know, job. So there's, like, things within it that are more centered towards that. And we have pretty like, intimate knowledge because, like, of the difference between ours and cags. Because later in otc, we actually do our tactical portion of OTC at Camp Dawson and we run the same lanes, but luckily not as selection. Like, we're actually doing a training, which later on I thought I was good at Land AV until I went to that place.

Jack Murphy (35:05)

So you make it through selection. I mean, that must have been a big relief to get. Go through the board and all that other stuff and finally get picked up.

Joe England (35:12)

Yes. The board is the hardest part of selection. My personal opinion, because traumatic, I would.

Jack Murphy (35:20)

Almost say, because they dig into every aspect of your life and pick it apart.

Joe England (35:26)

I would say. What I would say is you are presented with no win situations, and it is how you deal with no win situations. It is a hostile board. Like, when I finished, when I got out of the board and I went into the waiting room while they deliberated, I knew I'd failed. I knew I was done. There was no way. I went into this little. This room looked kind of like a boiler room. And I banged my head against this brick wall. And I kept saying, like, you're an idiot. You're an idiot. How could you screw that up? But I walked back in there and they're like, we'd like to invite you to the next phase of training.

Jack Murphy (36:05)

Wow.

Joe England (36:08)

That came as a surprise.

Jack Murphy (36:10)

The next phase was the Free Fall course. The next phase was the Free Fall course.

Joe England (36:19)

So, you know, that actually happened after otc. So our OTC is a little bit longer. It's just shy of a year. I think it's like 10, like 11 months. And once we finish OTC, then you're all the operators get to eventually go to Free Fall. And then soon as you get there, it's an oml. Like, obviously the people who've been there the longest, but the one exception is the tactical detachment. And most people don't get to go to the tactical detachment until they've been usually about average like three years. You already have to be basically senior operative status. And mainly I think maybe the size, maybe the way I look, you know, I don't quite fit in a lot of places, but I was made as an exception. And within less than a year I. Well, I knew coming out of OTC that they were going to put me sort of in the express lane to go to the tactical attachment. And I ended up probably six to nine months after I finished otc. I was officially in there and then I got put to the top the OML for free fall school. So within a year I was in Freefall Basic course. And within a year of that I did Freefall Jump Master down at Deathgrew in Virginia Beach.

Jack Murphy (37:44)

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Joe England (39:32)

Yeah. And one of the things that I really enjoyed about this particularly is just because a part of that job is you actually because isa kind of does its own thing with his own operations, everything like that. But the tactile attachment actually supports Blue and Green. So we actually were like, on the Jord cycle. And so I actually got to spend quite a bit of time with both Green and Blue, which I felt like I had a unique perspective because I kind of got to see inside all three of these units, both Orange, Blue, and Green. And you get to see the cultural differences, which are, you know, pretty, pretty shocking, I think, you know, especially with how the difference between how Blue and Green treats their support personnel. That's kind of a huge difference.

Jack Murphy (40:28)

I, I've heard that that Green loves their support guys and Blue hates them.

Joe England (40:33)

Yeah, I, I, it was explained to me in a very, a very good way. Green sees their support people is that, like, they can't do their job without their support guys. Blue sees their support guys as they're in their way and they have to tolerate them. And it's so, and one of the biggest, I'll give you. So at some point, they made it mandatory for all assaulters to go to their intelligence squadron over at Green. Yes. And because of that, like, when you showed up. Because when I started going, they'd already been implementing this. So when I, I'd show up, and almost always we were, we would be attached to the recce teams and, but when we would be there and we would have, like, our various different equipment and stuff like that, we'd have assaulters who come over who just got back from the intel squadron, like, oh, dude, I use that, dude. And they'd be super excited to talk to you about intel stuff. You know, here you got these, like, badass assaulters who, like, want to get in with the intel, and let's just say that never happened in Blue.

Jack Murphy (41:40)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, maybe it was you that told me this, actually, but someone pointed out to me that, you know, Delta makes a point of putting operators in those intelligence positions, and they take it really seriously. Like, this is part of your career field. You're going to be really good at it. And it's resulted in, you know, the increasing capabilities, of course.

Joe England (42:02)

Absolutely. So what I have found is that, you know, both assaulters at both Blue and Green, like, they are some of the most impressive individuals that I've ever met. Right. And especially with, like, with the mentality and the level of maturity that you find at Green when you take these, like, you know, I almost think of, like, Tier one assaulters is, like, almost equivalent, like Olympic athletes. They are the best. They have climbed that ladder. There's nobody better, right? You take someone who already has that mentality, and then you're like, hey, here's a different job. Once you do this, right? And these guys, because they have that mentality, they. They see how intelligent, intelligence, they go in there and they become some of the best, and then they do their. You know, I was. You know, this might be a hot take, but, like, I would actually say that the intel guys who are the assaulters at Green would probably be superior to any guy that you find at isa.

Jack Murphy (43:00)

Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty incredible that you would even think that. That they must have come a far way as far as your job. You're in the tactical squadron. How does your job differ from what you were doing previously as a SAT A?

Joe England (43:17)

So, yeah, let's see how. How much I can do. So it's so even. Even within the tactical side of things, I still did stuff outside of the tactical side of things. And if you understand that, you know, essentially that, you know, because everybody has pretty much general knowledge that the ISA was sort of, like, started as, like, the Army's version of the CIA. So if you. If you can kind of think about, like, what the CIA does and, you know, especially when it comes to covers and clandestine work. So you have to do. You do that type of stuff. And, you know, learning how to, you know, be somebody else for a deployment is. That is definitely a skill that you have to learn. And I can just tell you it's not like in the movies. You know, you have to, you know, you don't have this, like, team who comes up with all this stuff for you. You kind of have to make it up on the fly and you have to do your own research. And, you know, so that's. That is definitely an interesting thing, a side of things. And then while I was there, you know, because they have. Traditionally, they have two main operational squadrons. You have the operation squadron, and you have the signal squadron. And what they quickly realized is that they wanted to start making full spectrum operatives, which you had human guys who could do sigint, and you could have SIGINT guys doing human. And because we deploy in such small teams, they wanted to be able to have maximum capability in an individual. So, like, there started to be, oh, definitely a crossover. Like, one of my really good friends was actually the first SI guy to go to the Farm.

Jack Murphy (45:27)

That's pretty interesting. And I mean, I think there's a couple of interesting topics around this, but one of them is you had already talked about how in Delta Some of the operators had taken very well to the intel side. I'm wondering when you tried to. Or not you personally, but when the unit tried to mix HUMINT and sigint, how did those personalities work kind of on an individual level? There's both the personality aspect and also just the sheer amount of information that you can hold in your head and skills that you can maintain proficiency on.

Joe England (45:59)

No, that's actually a great question, because I think not all SIGINT guys traditionally have the personality to do humid. Right. I definitely think it's easier for a humid guy to learn sigint. You know, it's definitely because it requires a certain type of personality to do human. So they were very selective on who they started to cross train. Right. But the goal was to eventually cross train and also because especially during certain times, like, the unit would be more employed when it came to certain intelligence disciplines. And so when. Let's just say that os didn't really. The human guys weren't having much of a job, and they were jealous because maybe the second guys were more gainfully employed and had more missions. They were like, well, let us. Well, let's write some of the second stuff and they'll get us working again. And then they kind of went back and forth and vice versa. So it was an interesting. It was interesting to see the transition within the unit and then also the unit trying to find its own identity, if you will, because they struggled with that for years, and I probably still struggling with it.

Jack Murphy (47:17)

Is that because their capabilities are duplicated in other parts of jsoc, or.

Joe England (47:24)

So this is my understanding, and this is what I was told of what was going on when we were there. So obviously ISA was originally created to. And you obviously read about this in Killer Elite and a couple other books, but was to be that element of intelligence for both blue and green. And. And because we had a horrible relationship with the CIA in the 80s. But eventually the CIA came around and they're like, you guys are doing good stuff. And it's kind of like our. What was the analogy I used? The estranged stepfather came home and was like, hey, do you want to. Do you want to go around the world bin Laden with us? And we were like, hell, yeah, dad. And so. So there was a time where I think that. And this happened, like, before I got there. So I hear about this, like, he's out there 2010, and this already was like, they were still doing it when I showed up, but it was being calmed down at this point. They were transitioning away from Operation CIA, but for a good portion of the 2000s, they were running around the world with CIA, but not supporting Blue and Green. And that is, my understanding, was one of the main catalysts of why Blue and Green end up developing their own organic squadrons. So by that time that we kind of sort of ended our crusade with the Agency when we came back, and we're like, hey, we're back. And they're like, now we're good, bro.

Jack Murphy (49:00)

Right, right.

Joe England (49:01)

We. We're. We're good. And then when you show up, right, and you see what they're doing, you're like, yeah, you guys are good. You're really, really not that much use for us.

Jack Murphy (49:12)

How do you think that bodes for the future of the unit? Do you think they're going to find their identity or their niche in the community?

Joe England (49:19)

You know, they. Around the time that I left, they were. They were definitely trying to find their specific niche. Right. And I think that there were some good ideas, but I think that. I don't know. This is my personal opinion. When it comes to intelligence centric organizations, there is. Especially when it comes to personalities, I find that there is. The personalities can be a little more toxic. And probably intelligence just in general, I feel like, is a caddy, can be a very catty profession. And I definitely, of the three units, I definitely think that CAG is the most professional and the most mature. And I think that there were some innate personality problems within isa, which I think is still issues. Occasionally when I still talk to people who are still in the unit, they tell me all that I essentially, I left at a very good time.

Jack Murphy (50:23)

Yeah. Yeah. I think the difference in a lot of ways is that the intelligence business is kind of people doing their own thing, so to speak. Whereas, you know, you know, from your experience being on an ODA or a Ranger platoon or a SEAL platoon, it's very much a team, you know, a team event that you're doing.

Joe England (50:43)

Yeah, yeah. And then a lot of what they're doing is they're in, like, you know, occasionally there's, like, solo missions, but they're like two, maybe three man teams. Right. And you. You have quite a lot of responsibility. And there's definitely, like, it is a level. It is not an easy mission. Like, it's, you know, it's very, you know, you're out on your own. And especially whatever status that you might deploy in, you know, complicates things even further. And it is definitely a very hard environment. It's definitely. It is a tier one intelligence organization. Right. But there are what I found there were some inherent problems with that. And then honestly, like, you know, you look at almost every. Like, for example, take inscom, right? You have all these intelligence overarching umbrella organizations who no longer have a job like INSCOM doesn't have a job because every operational unit in the military has its own organic intelligence. Right. And so ISA is sort of like the INSCOM of Tier one, if you want.

Jack Murphy (51:44)

Right.

Joe England (51:45)

And it's still. Luckily, it still does its own thing. It has its own mission. Right. But the portion of where it supported the other two has been greatly diminished.

Jack Murphy (51:56)

And you did a whole bunch of deployments with the unit. What are you able to tell us about where they sent you and what they had you doing?

Joe England (52:06)

I can't really. Especially based on certain missions that were in different statuses. Sure. But I would probably say that one of the things when I'm fifth group, especially you think about this 2007, 2009, you know, fifth group was stuck in Iraq, Right. And this was. I was. I did my first deployment before the change of the SOFA agreement where you had unilateral operations. And then when we came back for the second deployment, we were doing bilateral operations, which we also needed warrants from Iraqi judges, which, you know, it took us a few months to realize that we had to go out of the tribal region because, you know, you'd submit a warrant through a judge, and then suddenly you had an IED waiting for you. Right. We quickly learned that we had to go out of the region away from that tribe to submit warrants for judges, actually. But it just completely slowed the tempo. And at that time, you know, we heard that, like, Afghanistan was still popping off. We were like, oh, can we go somewhere else? But we were fifth group, you know, that we owned Iraq. Like, we were stuck there. So one of the things that I wanted to do because that second deployment, while it was amazing because I had that great team experience with Boomer and the team, the sole attachment, I, luckily, deployments minus a single deployment was in other continents. And I actually probably spent majority of my time in Africa.

Jack Murphy (53:29)

Doing the tactical SIGINT side for other JSOC elements.

Joe England (53:35)

To actually did both. I did. I did both. The. The typical job that you would think of that an ISA guy does. And I also did the tactile thing because I was, you know, I was single, didn't have any kids, wasn't married. And so anytime that there was a slot that opened up, another detachment or somebody needed to be relieved for whatever American Red Cross or somebody needed to come home for whatever reason. I was usually the go to guy to fill in for those people. So which I, looking back in hindsight, I really liked because I went on probably more deployments and more varying different types of missions, regardless of what I look like, which I don't think would have happened if they weren't desperate and needed somebody to replace that. I was always available when I wasn't on certain aspects of the Jort cycle, when I was available from that time.

Jack Murphy (54:33)

Are there any stories that you're able to tell, and I understand that you need to be vague about where you were when it happened, et cetera, but if you could like walk us through if you have any stories you're able to tell, things that were close calls or got a little dicey.

Joe England (54:49)

You know, it's really hard to go into like any of that without, especially during that time, because without, you know, it'd be really hard to really say, I will, I will tell you. So of everything that I did at the unit, my favorite thing probably still to this day is about four years after I passed election, I got to come back as cadre for selection. And when you get to go behind the thing and you get to be the super stoic guy who, because they do it all the time, like candidates will come up and they'll be like, you know, they'll try to ask you for, to reiterate the instructions. And you just sit there, you know, with sunglasses on, you got your shirt on, you just go, candidate, what were your instructions? And that's all you have to say. And you get to see everything behind the scenes. And that was really cool because then, because while you're there, you also, you learn because to be. You learn the history of our selection and how it related to CAGs, how they change things. And then you also see like they actually had the reasons why they chose this psychology versus like how they went different than SFAs and various different things like that. But no, I would definitely say that the hardest part of deployments, I would actually say was being an alias. And I will say this, like, if you're. I would say that one of the transitions that I feel like kind of screws with you the most is that when you come back and you've essentially been somebody else for longer than you were yourself, it kind of like messes with you a little bit. And you know, all the times we always joke about it, like, you'll come home and then you'll be with your buddies at work and then you'll go to the local food. Food truck, and you'll be like, oh, you know, quarter. And they'd be like, for who? And then you. You. You'd give out the wrong name because you. You'd been somebody else for so long.

Jack Murphy (57:08)

Yeah. It's one of these situations where you wake up in the morning and you're not sure who you are. Like, what's my name?

Joe England (57:16)

Yeah, because the. They teach you early on, like, the best way to do that type of stuff is you have to believe the lie.

Jack Murphy (57:25)

Right.

Joe England (57:25)

And this isn't like, every CIA, like, handbook out there. Like, you know, this is no secret, but, like, that's definitely the most effective way. So when you go around it, you basically, you believe the lie. And then when you come back, it's a. It's a little bit of an adjustment.

Jack Murphy (57:42)

Yeah. I mean, I can see. I mean, thankfully, I think, you know, you were single at the time, but, I mean, it's especially hard on the.

Joe England (57:48)

Families, and it definitely can be.

Jack Murphy (57:51)

Yeah. And I can see why living the type of life you describe can drive people towards alcoholism, womanizing. You're out there trying to find a connection.

Joe England (58:04)

Yeah. So, yeah. And then also, you have to remember, also another part of that is you don't make that much money in the military. But I will tell you that Tier one operators do make money. Right? So, like, your SF guy, if I. Correct me, if I'm wrong, like, was it. Was it Special forces? Was hazardous duty pay?

Jack Murphy (58:28)

You get hazardous duty pay overseas, and you get pro pay for being sf.

Joe England (58:32)

Yep. Okay, so in the unit, as in both blue, green, and orange. Get this. All operators get this. So they get. They get the.

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Joe England (60:51)

SF pay at maxed out I think it's like 450 if I remember correctly. They get, you get your all your airborne's pays, you get your demo pays and everything like that, but then you get aip, which is my understanding only blue, green and orange operators get this and it's $1,000 a month on top of all your other special pays. And so I am a 27 year old staff sergeant at the time living in a metropolitan city and getting, getting, getting a decent amount of bah on top of all these. Like, because I, I probably had about $2,000 in special pays a month and on top of that my ridiculous bah, I was a 27 year old staff sergeant making over six figures and you cannot get that type of money in my, in even when I went to aviation I took a huge pay cut and I was a warrant officer, you know. So there's the money because you really can't, you can't replicate that anywhere else in the military. Not even like, not even fighter pilots in the Air Force. Whatever. Get that level of money and then you, you can't recreate this job in the civilian world. Like it's very hard. Like you can go to ground branch because that's where most of the guys go is they, they eventually go to ground branch. Like especially the tactical guys in our unit they would eventually go to ground branch and. And then that's when I had the fateful day. I was about. I think I'd been in the unit about six years. And our unit's CW5, who's this absolute legend who was a Green Beret ranger in the 80s, switched over, became a helicopter pilot 1/60 he was in Black Hawk Down. Anyways, this guy ended up being like the CW5 of our unit. And he, he liked me. Saw him in the gym one day and he comes up to me and he's like, you know, and he was like this 50 year old, like 55 year old man and dude had a 10 pack. Like, it's just stupid, right? You know, just like, it's like, you know, I'm like, bro, just, just put it away. Like, like I felt like was one of the fittest dudes there. And he would just literally put me to shame all the time. And he used to come up and he, he'd like fist bump you, but he'd like, he'd hit you hard with the knuckles, right? And he'd do this every single day. So I'm in the gym, about to work out, and he's like, so he's like, joe, what's, what's, you know, what's your plan? I'm like, oh, I'm proud to do legs. And he was like, no, with life, you idiot. And I'm like, oh, you know, I'm gonna do what everybody else. Because I've been, I'd reached senior, senior operative status at that point for I think it'd been like a one or two years. And my, and what everybody did was they did their like 20, 20, 25 years, whatever. And then they all went to ground Branch, especially the guys I was in the detachment with. And that was, that was, that was the life. That was the dream, right? And he comes up to me and he's like, he's like, do not do that. And I'm like, why? He's like, look at all your seniors. Look at your peers. All of them are divorced. None of them have not, barely any of them have any relationship with their children. He's like, he's like, you've done this like between group and here. He's like, you've done this like what, over a decade now? He's like, I can tell you, he's like, it doesn't get any better. He's like, the seniority in these jobs doesn't get you any better. He's like, the best part is the first five years. That's the sweetest part. It's new. It's everything. You get to do everything. And then once you start getting senior status, you would think that you get more freedom. No, that's the exact opposite. So. And then he being a guy who was a former Ranger, Green Beret, and now a pilot, he was like, if you ever want to go to flight school. I was like, yeah, who doesn't? He's like, dude, the army will pay. Like, they will. You know, you don't have to pay to get your private license. He's like, go do that. And then, you know, probably within a year of that conversation, you know, I. You know, due to some other, like, things that went on in the unit that I did that I saw that I didn't. Like, I was like, I'm out. You know, I put in my. Like, I was at the 4187 and I applied for flight school warrant and then, you know, had to put in an age and time and service waiver, end up being the oldest person in flight school, which the first sergeant down there was really happy to tell me. You know, he's like, you're the old man now.

Jack Murphy (65:24)

That was. Yeah, that was some really sage advice that you got from your salty warrant there. But, you know, he wasn't wrong.

Joe England (65:31)

No, he wasn't. And actually his helicopter is actually. If you usually go to the RV Aviation Museum, is the. Is the actual helicopter in there and has his name on it.

Jack Murphy (65:42)

Holy shit.

Joe England (65:43)

Like this. This guy. This guy is a legend.

Jack Murphy (65:46)

Yeah. Did it all.

Joe England (65:46)

Yeah, this guy still a legend to this day.

Jack Murphy (65:49)

Okay, so you go to flight school and sort of first off, like, what's your objective in going to flight school? What airframe do you want to be on? What are sort of your goals here going into it?

Joe England (66:01)

So at this time, it was my understanding. So it was interesting. So when you go there, when you go to flight school and if you either come from Ranger bat, you come from group, or you come from one of the tier one units, you are. When you finish flight school, you are going to be allowed the option to go straight to 160. If they only give this option for framer for former Ranger, you know, whatever, or the tier one guys, right? And I was told by the two CW5s, both of them who helped me write, who, who did my letters of recommendation, they were like, whatever you do, when they give you this option, say, no, do not go to 1/60th straight out of flight school. And both of these guys were former 1/60 guys. And they told me, they're like, hey, it's a dog eat dog world. He's like, you. When you go to flight school, they teach you enough to not crash. He's like, all this other stuff like learning how to, you know, to launch. Guys do airborne operations, fast roping spies, fries. When you show up for 160, they expect you to know it already. In Grady, they're making an exception. But that learning curve is so short, it adds a level of stress to your flying that you don't really need. And when I show up to flight school, there's only one other soft guy there. There's another green. There's a Green Beret, there's. And we actually instantly become friends, right? And we're sitting there like one of the first days and I tell him what my CW5 told me. He's like, dude, my CW5 told me the exact same thing. Who. His CW5 was also a 160th guy. So it quickly became this thing. But while I was there, you know, if, if you're familiar, you know, like 1 60th has sort of become like, you know, like the tier 2 aviation unit sort of.

Jack Murphy (67:48)

Right.

Joe England (67:49)

Because like, what does green do? Right. They need it. They need a capability. They. There was a time when, you know, I think 160 was. Their operations were getting too slow because they, they still had this bureaucratic, you know, they're still in the army, right. And you had officers who would come along and just their, their, their speed of doing operations were not fast enough. So what did Greene do? They end up developing their own aviation wing. And that aviation wing got so successful that it became its own separate unit. And I believe the colloquial term is the, the Northern Virginia Boys. I believe is that.

Jack Murphy (68:31)

Yeah, the dev. Group one I've heard referred to as twa, Teeny Weeny Airlines.

Joe England (68:39)

Yeah, yeah. So, so obviously knowing this and actually getting to work with them while was at the unit that was like, became my goal because I, But I knew that they weren't, they were obviously not going to accept me right away, nor did I want to. So the goal was to get there and do my, go to my first unit, get my couple of years in and then go and then apply for the Virginia Boys. And while I was there, one of my. Well, so I did the basic course in the, uh, 72 Lakota. And one of my contracting instructors, we quickly learned where I was from and he let me know that he, this was a side job for him. But he's actually from the Virginia boys. And he told me, and I was. So I. We had a good conversation, and I was like, okay, what's the fastest way I can get there? Right? He's like, Blackhawks. He's like, if you do Apaches, because there's such a shortage of Apaches, at least this is what he said at the time, was that you will have to do an additional year or two as an Apache pilot before they'll even allow you to go. If you do Blackhawks, you. That's the quickest way that you can get there. So that was the reason why. So when I got to my wish list after graduating the basic course, that is why I put it on my. The top of my wish list was Blackhawks.

Jack Murphy (70:09)

Cool.

Joe England (70:10)

So.

Jack Murphy (70:12)

So then you had to go off to, uh, 60 school.

Joe England (70:16)

Yes, went off to, uh, 60 school. Uh, and it's funny because you hear there is, like, with any unit, you hear generalizations about, like, what the Apache instructors are like, what the Blackhawk instructors like. And you. For whatever. You keep hearing these horror stories about the Apache instructors, right? Which end up being quite the opposite because you. I find out when you get to the Blackhawk portion that the Blackhawk instructors are, like, the worst. Like, the Apache guys are actually the coolest. The Chinook guys are, if not as cool as Apache guys, even cooler. Right. But I think one of the reasons why the Blackhawk guys are so bitter is because they don't do anything. Like, their airframe doesn't do anything well, and they're like the jack of all trades. But since you've been in Afghanistan, as you know, in Afghanistan, they don't have the power to do successful operations. That's why basically, only Chinooks do anything. So as a unit commander, what are you going to do? Because at that. At that altitude, you can get, like, maybe three, four guys with equipment on your. On your Blackhawk. So what are you going to request? You request, like, 20 Blackhawks or, like, one or two Chinooks? Like, it doesn't make any sense. Right.

Jack Murphy (71:31)

So.

Joe England (71:31)

So I feel like there was a. These guys had a bit of a. You know, some of them literally had an appalling complex. But, yeah, some of them had, like, this, like, oh, we need to prove ourselves. And it just was this negative attitude. And we quickly learned that the instructors in the black car course were definitely the most difficult.

Jack Murphy (71:55)

And as you're going through the course, it sounds like you started having some family tragedy also, right?

Joe England (72:01)

Yeah. So my father, at this point, was. Had Cancer. But then my, my sister in law who helped raise me because my mother died when I was 15. She actually left college. Her, her and my brother came home and helped raise me. So like, she's my sister in law, but I always consider my sister because she helped raise me. And she died suddenly and unfortunately in the exact same way that my mother did when I was 15. And so I went home on emergency leave to be there for everything in the funeral. And then within a year, my father died and I was already having issues with the current flight instructor who was the flight lead of my Blackhawk flight. And so I use this as a time to roll out of that class and take care of family stuff. And then when I got put back into course, I randomly got put back into his flight. And within a week or two I got. Had some issues with being accused of parking, created other issues within flight school. And then in combination of my family and a financial situation that was going on with all my real estate investment properties because of COVID that's probably when I hit rock bottom and hit a level. Been depressed in my first time in my life.

Jack Murphy (73:34)

And we'll talk about this in a bit, but your YouTube channel, you talk a lot about overcoming some of these mental health issues. What was it you were experiencing at that time and how did you overcome it? Because, I mean, what you're describing, it's not nothing. I mean, this is something that would take the wing, the air out of anyone's wings, I think.

Joe England (73:55)

Yeah, no, and that's a great question, because this actually ends up being like one of the things that I tell people, especially when they're starting to leave the military, is what I didn't realize at the time, but I learned quickly, is that I had tied my identity to these aspects of my life, to my real estate investment, to my success within the military. Because at this point, I never failed anything, obviously, you know, not. Not passing waivers. I didn't really, you know, consider that as failing. Right. I. Every time that someone had given me the shot, I passed it. Right? In flight school, I had never, at this point, never failed a test. Technically, I did fail one flight test in the, uh, 72 Lakota, but that's only because I fell asleep in the back. The instructor was not happy about it, so. So I failed. He failed me, even though I passed the flight portion. So I had to retake the testament. That's neither here nor there. So. And then now. So between my financial, my professional, I. All these things that I tied my identity that I was Successful were failing, and I had no idea how to deal with failure. And I shut down completely. I didn't talk to anybody because I was ashamed. I was these things. I projected all these things. This is who I was. And now it is no longer this. How could I talk to anybody? And it wasn't until I finally, you know, because, you know, I don't know if you want me to go into the details about the plan that I made.

Jack Murphy (75:34)

Whatever you're comfortable with.

Joe England (75:35)

So, yeah, so I got a problem because I've already talked about this in my YouTube channel. So I hit rock bottom, and I made a plan to commit suicide, right? And I made a plan. I planned to do it after my best friend's wedding, who I was, strangely enough. I was a bridesmaid for her wedding. And the main reason why I didn't do it was actually because of my dog. Because later on, I would obviously realize that, you know, taking your own life is one of the most selfish things you can do because, you know, you think you're fixing your problems, but you're causing trauma to anybody who's ever loved you, right? And that. That's just horrible, right? But this dog who I'd rescue from the streets of Baltimore, she had nobody else in her life, you know, who was I to, like, leave her in this world when she had nobody? Who would she go to, right? And so her was the main reason I didn't do it. And then every day, I was just like. I made a choice. I was like, I'm just gonna do one thing that's gonna make my life better today. And then eventually I got out of it. And then you. I think what I didn't know, because it's one of the reasons why this was so hard for me. I had never been depressed in my life. I always had a sunny disposition because I'd never experienced this. I didn't know what to do. And finally I started reaching out to people. I started talking to people and realized that it was okay to have done this, right? Obviously, it was, you know, mainly because I didn't follow through with it. And so every day, by day, I did something to make my life better. And then what? You quickly realize it eventually. You know, when you pull yourself out of this thing, it's sort of. I feel like it rewires your brain chemically a little bit. And you.

Ryan Seacrest (77:26)

It's.

Joe England (77:27)

It's like this. This shadow that's always behind you. You're always going. That depression is always lingering there, but it's how you perceive It. It's how you deal with it. You know, you understand that, like, that's not an option and you're never going to allow yourself to. To do that. But, like, it's there. You. It's. You're lying. If it's not like, then there's like, the sadness that you go through. And for me, I. I frame it as, this is the story that I one day will tell. Right. If I was ever to write, if someone was ever writing a book or movie about my life, which I don't think I'd ever do, I'm not that cool. But if they did, what would the viewers at the screen be yelling? What would the people in the. In the movie theater be yelling at the screen right now for me to do? Right. And when you think about that, your success is built on failures. That was just this giant failure that would become one of the greatest triumphs I believe, in my life to get over that particular period of my life. So to the point where I'm actually. It is one of the best things that ever happened to me because it has turned me into the person that I am today. And I am. So if later on when we talk about the investigation, if that investigation had happened five years prior, I don't know how I dealt with it. But because this had already happened, my level of don't give a fuck factor was so high that I just didn't care that every. To me, every day after that were bonus days. Right. I'm just happy to be alive.

Jack Murphy (79:02)

Yeah. You emerged stronger after the fact.

Joe England (79:06)

Absolutely.

Jack Murphy (79:07)

Yeah. And so you're kind of trying to beat this thing. At the same time, how are you kind of like wrapping up flight school and are you getting assigned to a unit?

Joe England (79:19)

Yeah. So basically I had to go through this whole process of, you know, I had to write letters to Congress and all these different things, and, you know, the whole thing was a shit show. But eventually I was able to get out of there. And then I got DCS to Washington D.C. or to Washington D.C. area. And at this point, I was. Because of the things that happened at flight school, I was done with the military. So I was like, I'm just going to ride out the rest of my career. Like, because, like, now the concept of, like, you know, doing anything else after that, I was like, I'm done. So. And then about six months prior, that's when I started the YouTube channel, because I was like, this is my purpose. Like, this is the one of the things that I wanted to do.

Jack Murphy (80:13)

And it was something outside of the military too, right? It was something you were doing on your own.

Joe England (80:19)

Yes. Yeah. And so, and because I guess one of the catalysts when I wanted to do this was because I've obviously experienced toxic leadership especially, which I never thought I would, especially in isa. Like, there was some, definitely some very toxic leaders. It obviously doesn't happen as much, but I feel like when it does, it's very potent. Like it was the few individuals that were. It was really bad. And I wanted to make videos about toxic leadership, but, like, to help teach people what real leadership actually looks like. Because I feel like a lot of people actually don't know what real leadership looks like. So that became one of the reasons. And then now that I had this, this where I was able to get past taking my own life and I was on this like, journey of like, you know, I got into Buddhism, stoicism and all these different things. And I really kind of like went on this, like, spiritual journey to like, find, you know, to understand my place in this universe. And what I eventually got to. I was like, I think that I have this innate ability to be able to break things down to retard level because I am, you know, kind of a retard myself because I have to break everything down to layman's terms. I got. I got stories from Free Fall School. When it came to learning how to do poised exits, they literally had to break it down to retard level for me. And then I'm not afraid to talk about the things that, you know, guys don't want to talk about, especially in these hyper masculine communities. So I felt like that was my thing. So I started this channel and that's what I started originally talking about was the. Was the mental health stuff. I was talking about fitness, stoicism, you know, that's why I call it the Stone Viking. And. And then. But people were then asking me because I had pictures up of like my time at fifth group time at flight school and then like time like ISA or whatever, or like the few photos that I did because I don't really have many photos from that time for obvious reasons. And people started asking questions like, why did you leave? Right. So. And I never said which unit I was from. And so I was like, okay, I see this as a teaching lesson, right? Because. So I phrased it. So I told the story of why I left. And the reason why I left is because, you know, I saw that there was no, there was no future down that route, at least not for 20, 30 years, right? And the Moral of the story was you can do anything amazing, right? But you don't need to sacrifice your entire personal life for the rest of your life because of it. Right? And if you really think about it, and this is the advice that I tell everybody, know what you want in the military, go get it, do it for five years, and then leave and take that experience to the civilian world because they will reward you, you know, for, in many different ways. And you also have the freedom to like quit. Like that's, that's an amazing power which you don't get in the military, right? So I made this video and at that point, I think my videos had maybe 500,000 views. This thing within like two days was like 100,000 views. And then I started making more videos and people liked it and people were asking about selection. So I kind of made a video selection about, you know, how the Differences between Tier 2 and Tier 1 selections, advice of how to pass Tier 2 and Tier 1. Never gave any operational details, never gave away any secrets, never still named, never named the unit. But people in the comments were starting to guess. Yeah, you know, they hear Tier one unit, they know, they know. I'm like, look, bro, like I, I wish, but no, that's not the, that's not the one I went. So I started to imply through the comments that I was from a different one, right. So everything's fine. The channel's starting to get big. You know, I get barbell apparel reaching out to me, wanting to be a sponsor, you know, which was cool because I've already been wearing these guys clothes. And right around that time, I get this ominous phone call from my command. And they're like, hey, we need you to come into work immediately and come see the commander. And anybody who's been in the military knows that is not a good sign that never results in anything good. That's always bad. So I show up and they whisk me directly into this conference room. And you know, my company commander, she's, you know, she's only been in the army for a couple years and she's obviously really worried. And I've only ever seen a smile on this woman's face. I'm like, ma', am, you okay? She's like, ah, you know, like, I don't really. She couldn't tell me what was going on. So they slide this piece of paper in front of me and it says that I'm being investigated by the Army Criminal Investigation Division for the possible disclosure, unclassified or of classified information.

Jack Murphy (85:25)

And I think you're probably aware of this, Joe, but there's sort of a larger context happening in the special operations community, going after all kinds of veterans who have spoken on podcasts or spoken in interviews or whatever the case may be. About a year and a half ago, Delta sent out a letter to all of their members.

Joe England (85:48)

Yeah.

Jack Murphy (85:49)

And the letter, you know, it's kind of starts off where it's like, you know, warning people, you know, be careful about not disclosing classified information, which I think that's within their wheelhouse. Right. Nothing wrong saying that. But then, yeah, they ask veterans of the unit to socially shame other veterans of the unit that speak out in ways that they find inappropriate. And that is completely beyond the purview of some commander at some unit at Fort Bragg to try to suppress the First Amendment rights of private citizens out there in America. And I just had another friend, he worked for one of the JSOC support units, and they came after him this last week because of an interview he did with us about a year ago. And there's nothing they can do, as we'll talk about with your case, there's nothing they can really do to him because he didn't say anything wrong. He did not divulge classified information. But what they will do is try to socially shame you within the community.

Joe England (86:53)

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And I already started to see this even prior, because I think I saw Sean Ryan talking about it, doing these interviews, and suddenly, you know, they're like, oh, you have to take our videos down. And, you know, as Sean Ryan said is like, you know, you can't. Like, you're allowed to talk about your lives, obviously, don't give away your operational details. So in one of the reasons that I chose the path of my channel anyways, which was one, not to be about operational details, and I wanted to be about stoicism, philosophy, life lessons, talking about the hard truths and these, you know, the suicide. Mental health. Because especially when I was. When I was in the unit, even when I was in aviation, if you went to mental health, that was the end of your career.

Ryan Seacrest (87:40)

Right.

Joe England (87:40)

You couldn't go. It wasn't until, like, a couple years later, like, towards the end of my career, that it was okay to go to mental health. So that's what I want to talk about. And I never wanted to be about the unit because, like, one, I don't think I'm that cool anyways, and two, like, what am I going to talk about anyways? No, I was like, no, we're good. So, yeah, so the Intent of the channel was not to be about the operational details because one, I don't think I'm that cool anyways. And then two, what are you actually going to talk about? It's such a murky road. Didn't want to do any of that type of stuff. And so the focus of the channel was obviously on the philosophy, the stoicism, making the mental health. Especially because, you know, when I was in the unit and aviation, if you went to mental health, that was a death sentence. Like your career was over. And luckily in the last couple years right before retired, it definitely shifted that that be okay. But it definitely like we had a guy in while I was in flight school who went to mental health. He was, he was kicked out within a week.

Jack Murphy (88:43)

Geez.

Joe England (88:45)

And obviously in the unit you definitely couldn't go to mental health. Like that was. That was a death sentence on a death sentence. So. But you know, I did my due diligence and I researched all the stuff and whether unit likes it or not, there's plenty of books which I also have a funny story because I actually showed up to ISA selection because at this time in 2010, I think the only book at that time was Killer Elite.

Jack Murphy (89:08)

Yeah.

Joe England (89:09)

And you have to remember this is 2009, 2010. Right. And what there was very little known about the unit. Right. So I'll quickly go into this real quick because I think it's a little. Might be a little pertinent is at that time it was like whispers of what orange and green were. Like everybody knew what green was, but they're like, what is orange? And the thing that I was told by a Green Beret in the company I was in and because he was interested to go to orange, actually he was like, if you want to be John Rambo, you go to green. If you want to be James Bond, you go to orange. Right. And obviously that's. Could not be farther. Like that was such a disappointment. But you know, this is to a truth. There is some truth to it that type of job. But when I. But when you're applying, right. That nowhere did they actually say the name of the unit. Right. So you're applying. So you think you're applying for this job. So I show up to this selection and I'm still not 100% sure unit I'm trying out for. So I bring two books. I bring the book Killer Elite and I bring the book the Mission of the Madami by Pete labor, which was always one of my favorite books. I like how he taught life lessons in that book, which is sort of one of the things that modeled how I did my channel. So the first week that you do everything of selection before you go off to the actual real selection is all like, pt, test, interview, CI, and you're sitting down, you're doing polygraphs, all that stuff. I get called into one of my CI interviews one day and he's like, hey, you know you like to read. And I was like, yeah, I like to read. He's like, did you bring any books with you? I was like, yeah, I brought some books. He's like, cool, cool. What books did you bring? I was like, ah, you know, like, you know, Mission Metamine and some other books. And he's like, what other book? And I'm like, I remember having a conversation like an hour prior with some other dude who was in there talking about how like, Killer Elite was like, you know, possibly about this unit. And so he's like, you know, I was like, oh, I'm just reading this book, Killer Elite. And he's like, what is that book about? I was like, well, supposedly it's about this unit, right? He's like, well, do you think that's a good idea to read this? And then that immediately piqued my interest is like, why does he not want me to know? So I leaned in and I was like, should I not be reading this book? Like, is there a reason? And he just like, looks at me coldly and he's like, you should not be reading that book while you're here. So I get out of that interview, oh, no. The last thing I say is like, well, wouldn't you want to know as much about the unit that you're supposedly. And he looks at me coldly again. He goes, just don't read that book while you're here. So I immediately went straight to my bunk and I was like, halfway through it, and I've never read a book so fast in my entire life. And when I was done, I slammed it down and I was like, I've never been so disappointed in my life. There was nothing about selection. It was like the driest book that I've ever fucking read. And there was nothing in there, right? But they made this whole thing. So going back to, I did all this research, I made sure that everything that I would possibly talk about was already publicly available information. And I made very careful that I did imply any names. I used the most outed names within the unit, which was ISA and tfo. But, you know, apparently they're not on the same page of believing that that's okay to talk about.

Jack Murphy (92:41)

So how did this investigation against you shake out? They're saying that your use of these terms is classified information that you can't reveal publicly.

Joe England (92:51)

Yeah, so? So what ended up happening is, you know, through unofficial, unofficial avenues. I was informed that one, my former unit was chain leadership, was in contact with my current chain of command, and it was implied to me that me posting any sort of information even remotely relating to the unit was a bad precedent, and that.

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Joe England (95:44)

A, they should maybe, you know, made example of that they should pursue as much as they can within their, their legal capabilities. And then I learned about a week later from this of a similar unofficial source that, that the, the. The shift went from. They realized that nothing I had talked about was actually directly classified. They were now trying to see if they could put sort of an aggregate of me placing unclassed sources together and then like confirming things that that would actually be. Could be they could find some sort of, you know, charge within there, but that luckily that line of thinking did not work out for them. And ultimately, you know, I was not charged with anything I was given at the end of two months, I was called in and obviously there. There's four options that could add to me. One, I could have been charged criminally. Two, I could have been charged under ucmj. And then three is a Gomar, which is a general officer Memorandum of reprimand, I believe is the correct full term. And everybody who knows a Gomar, that is essentially a strongly worded letter that goes into your permanent profile and of course, nothing at all. Scotch free. Everybody agrees, hey, everything's good. Unfortunately, I'm not that lucky. So I show up and I receive a gomar, and it's a very vaguely worded letter just basically saying that they were disappointed and I used poor judgment when posting on social media. And that's basically all it said. So you're allowed to do a rebuttal. You have seven days to do a rebuttal. But the good thing is when you're allowed to do the rebuttal, you are legally allowed to have all the invention investigative documents. So they handed me the documents and I have to word this very carefully. When I was given the documents by a member of the staff of the brigade team, I was cautioned on of how severe my response should be or lack thereof. And if I was to resist, that there would be consequences.

Jack Murphy (98:18)

Retaliation is is the word they're avoiding saying.

Joe England (98:23)

Yeah. So yeah, there was a lot of implications within this conversation, but I knew from my unofficial source that I already knew that they were, they were. If they could grow whatever they were trying to find, they were digging.

Jack Murphy (98:34)

Yeah.

Joe England (98:35)

And so I knew at this point, like, what a, what a bluff, right. And I told the guy who told me this, right. Who was a member of the staff, and I told him very politely, I was like, if they could have, they would have. Yeah. So I went home and I googled because. So one majority of the stuff on this document was redacted. But you've been in the unit long enough, you know the terms. You can, you can tell what's under the redacted portions. And I could tell that the two things that they were upset about was the use of one, that acknowledging that I was even in the unit, which didn't make any sort of sense because I won't go too much into it, but when you leave the unit, you're actually on your erb. They finally put the existing acronym of the unit. Right.

Jack Murphy (99:28)

And you come out of the Dasser and everything else.

Joe England (99:31)

Exactly. So you're allowed to acknowledge that you were at an S. Obviously you don't want to go any of the details and you avoid using its current name or any of the last, like five or whatever, you know, so, you know. But, you know, people know enough, right? Like, like they know what's in that area. They know like, you know, what unit used to be. You know, they generally know what you're talking about. So I go. And then the other thing was using the term isa, which surprised me the most because of if you look at how much literature there is out using the term isa, which is obviously Units official original name. So I went home and I got on Google and within two minutes I googled members of ISA and the plethora of profiles that came up, one surprised me and what the most interesting. The top of all these profiles not only was actually a guy who is my unit commander while I was there, and actually I was. I did lead one mission as a, as a team leader, and he was actually the unit commander while I was leading that team. So I actually had to do video chats with this guy every single week. So for that to be the guy that popped up. And then when I opened his army profile, like on an army official website, of all the things it could have said, right, it said not only was did he attend ISA selection of all the names that could use, it also said that he was the commander of isa. And actually right before this interview, I actually looked up and verified that it's still up. And it. Not only did it verify that he went to ISA selection and he was the commander of isa, it gave the exact dates that he was. He did it. Right. So I put this all in my rebuttal.

Jack Murphy (101:22)

Why is it classified when you say it, but not classified when some officer says.

Joe England (101:26)

Exactly. So I have a personal theory about that. So if you notice, in certain units there is sort of a double Standard.

Jack Murphy (101:36)

Oh, yeah.

LifeLock Advertiser (101:37)

And.

Jack Murphy (101:38)

Oh, yeah.

Joe England (101:38)

You know, there's various different reasons why certain people. And, you know, I think it goes back to, like, you know, and for anybody who's been in the military long enough, especially in Sofia, there is definitely, like, for example, when it comes to awards, right, Everybody knows that the higher rank you are, usually the higher rewards you get. You know, like, if I'm. If, like, an E6 was to do something that could merit a Bronze Star, he may not get it. He might get an archon with the V device, but that major who was sitting back in the fob, oh, he's getting. He's getting a Bronze Star for sure. Right? And so I feel like there is one. There's, like, this good old boys club, which there always has been, and then it's a combination of a certain level of rank that certain people get away with these things. Like, you know, there's been. I think it, like, at least, as my count, there's at least four books just specifically about the unit. And I actually know personally, like, two of them, who wrote them, and, you know, one of them is now the Director of Counterterrorism. Or was.

Jack Murphy (102:45)

You mean.

Joe England (102:46)

I don't know if he's still.

Jack Murphy (102:47)

You mean nctc.

Joe England (102:50)

Yeah. So. So definitely there was, like, us. And I also knew in the way that I left the unit, I was not there. There was definitely not the biggest. Some people were not the biggest fan of me, like, and I had this innate ability, where we talked about earlier, you know, I have a face that people want to punch, apparently. And so. And I've come to terms with this, right? Like, people. I rub people the wrong way for whatever reason. There's multiple different reasons. It doesn't matter. So I finished this rebuttal and I send it to my company commander. And I'm proud because not only did I find this documentation I had. I had all the other URLs and resources that. That I had done my due diligence before I even started the channel. So I gave all the books, all the references, everything, put it all in a rebuttal, and I sent it to my company commander. And I was really proud of this. In my mind, there was no way they would keep this. My company commander like, hey, did you get the rebuttal? And she was like, yes, but we need to talk about it. Because I was, like, really happy to hear what she thought of it. So I went in. The next day, she takes me and she tells me. I was like, ma', am, did you like the rebuttal? She's like, I did, I thought it was awesome. You did a great job. But the brigade commander is furious. I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, they're claiming it's spillage. Like, what do you mean it's spillage? She's like, because you used his name in ISA in the same email. Not only are they pissed off about it, they have confiscated mine and first sergeant's computers because, and she, she was at, at this point, she was completely on my side and she was just like, this whole thing is so ridiculous. And basically it was a knee jerk reaction because they were frustrated with their inability to charge me.

Jack Murphy (105:02)

Yeah, yeah.

Joe England (105:03)

And, and obviously if it had been spillage, they would have charged me immediately. And obviously after, other than me, my company, it's very. Never heard anything about that.

Jack Murphy (105:15)

It's very hard to charge somebody for spillage. You know, if you want to explain that term to folks, I mean, that means like inadvertent disclosures, Right?

Joe England (105:25)

Exactly. Yeah. And because obviously you can't call it spillage when it's on an army official website. Yes, exactly. It would have been one thing if it had not been. And then I took this information, put it together, confirmed it, and that's, that's spillage. Because then I put two things together which other people wouldn't. But it was on an army official website. So that's why it wasn't spillage. But they were just so upset and they may not have known it, like, may have, like to them, they're like, oh my God, you have an I, this guy's name me a commander. And even though it said where I found it, they may, you know, I'll give them the benefit of doubt because this particular company, this brigade commander was not, he's not from an smu. He may not know, but that was their knee jerk reaction. They literally confiscated, as far as I know, destroyed those computers just because they opened the email on those computers. And yeah, so I left and you know, I never heard anything else behind that. And then. But that was not quite the end of that. So I was given permission to start posting again. And this happened around October 1st. So prior to the investigation, I actually had a good relationship with the senior command at the unit and I knew that there was a pending family financial issue that was going to come probably around November, December, and my original retirement date was November 1st. So I reached out to them and I was like, hey, can I extend it four months just to get on the backside of holidays? Can I go to February 1st. And they're like, absolutely no problem, because all it does is. Requires your brigade commander's decision. And everybody told me, we're cool. So this happened about two weeks prior to the investigation. And then when the investigation. And when they, you know, they handed me the sheet, I was actually very confident. I actually originally laughed when they gave me the document. And my company was like, aren't you worried about this? I was like, no, ma'. Am. I was like, I knew that there was a possibility this might happen, but I did my due diligence. I know I haven't talked about anything classified. We're good. And they tell me at that meeting that they're going to sit on my extension until the investigation. Once the investigation's done, they're cool. They'll send it up. Everything's great. So the investigation finishes around October 1st. And they, through multiple different people, they lead me to believe that, like, it's going up, it's going to get signed. It wasn't until about a week prior, because anybody who retires know that usually between your terminal leave, usually get at least a month of, like, free time away from work. Right. When you retire. And I find out a week. And I'm not ready to retire. I think I'm retiring March or February 1st, because I've been told multiple occasions. And they're like, oh, by the way, we're not signing your thing. You retire in a week.

Jack Murphy (108:14)

Totally nuts.

Joe England (108:16)

And I was like, oh, my God. Like, you've got to be kidding me. And then I tried. And even the civilian who was actually. Who did my final out processing, he tried until the day of. Like, he actually told them on the day I was supposed to my final out, he actually told me. He's like. And he's told. He told my command. He's like, if you sign this this morning, he's like, I have. Even though it was the government shutdown, he's like, I know the guy who approves this. I'll have it approved by lunch. And you'll. And you'll. And It'll be extended. February 1st. They refused.

Jack Murphy (108:47)

Wow.

Joe England (108:48)

And then my company commander, to her credit, she did. She's like. She told me. She's like. She called me right after I did my final hat. She's like, we failed you. Well, we. What happened here was not right. We failed you as an organization. And she's like, it's going in my AAR or whatever her. Or her Command climate Survey that she was gonna do that year. She was reported whether she did or not she. You know, I don't actually know. It doesn't matter.

Jack Murphy (109:12)

Well anymore. You know, it's big of her to at least call you and tell you that.

Joe England (109:17)

Yeah. Which I appreciated.

Jack Murphy (109:18)

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Joe, I think we got a couple questions. Questions from the Patreon folks for you. We'll tee those up. I. I thought, you know, when I called you up about doing this interview, I. I mean, I think I said something like, you know, Joe, if you're not incarcerated right now, I. I'd love to do this interview. And if you, if you are, we can do it from prison. You know, there's a possibility.

Joe England (109:42)

Yeah. Yeah. It would probably get better views, to be honest. It's. It's. It's kind of a shame.

Jack Murphy (109:47)

You and the. In the. The hamburger burglar outfit with the black and white stripes.

Joe England (109:51)

Yeah, yeah.

Jack Murphy (109:53)

So.

Joe England (109:54)

Yeah, go ahead.

Jack Murphy (109:55)

What do we got, D?

Joe England (109:56)

All right, we got one from jj. What do people get wrong about tfo? So I would say that one of the things that people is that the. Because obviously their original job was to support Green and blue. Right. But. And obviously they started as, you know, the army's version of the CIA, because mostly it was a human organization. And granted, it was. I think it was 80s when Colonel Jerry King created it. I think it was like 80 or 81 when he created it.

Jack Murphy (110:29)

Yeah.

Joe England (110:30)

Yes. And at that time, SIGINT wasn't really much of a thing. Like SIGINT was just radios. Right. And then when the unit really started to like make its business, like make money, like they were the pioneers, especially like they. The Sigit Crush. And so they became this like full intelligence spectrum organization. And they became so successful, which is one of the reasons that they started doing their own operations. And now they're more of a. The niche that they have tried to find is one, because Green and Blue really doesn't need them. That they are this, like the. This multi theater, like world level intelligence organization. That that's what they try to be as like their own. They run their own independent operations. You know, if they can give intel back to the greater JSOC community, they can, but they are a lot. They're very independent nowadays.

Jack Murphy (111:32)

And I think we got one more.

Joe England (111:33)

Yep. How have you seen the operation operational preparation of the environment change over time? Think I lost you.

Jack Murphy (111:45)

Sorry.

Joe England (111:46)

How have you seen operational preparation of the environment change over time? Okay. Operational prep. So it has definitely changed, and it has definitely changed with technology. So. And I can go further a couple different ways. So from a tactical side of things, Right. Obviously implementing drones and other things like that. And also from a force protection, as our abilities to conduct force protection, like just from the SIGINT side of things, became very limited as technology increased and our ability, like, for example, I eventually in the unit, I went back to Iraq, like later on during the ISIS invasion. And it was one of the first Americans back in. And what we were doing six years prior, we couldn't even do a full fraction of what we were doing there. And so we had to come up. Literally. One of the things that I did is I actually end up getting a word for this. I actually helped create a new piece of equipment that the NSA ended up manufacturing for that particular mission. So and then the combination of us doing SIG and also combining clan skills in the human side of things, which then technology, from an alias standpoint of view, biometrics, started to change things. And you had Ancestry.com, you had 23andMe, which are obviously explicitly told not to do, for obvious reasons. And so it changed the way that we looked at the world and the way that we could do operations, because it just. It wasn't the old school, like 80s and 90s. We had to incorporate the technology. And then everything was becoming so digital, but also in such small form factors that you couldn't even detect when people were using particular technology. And you had like RFID sniffers. And then, you know, everybody's heard of a Faraday cage, right? We basically started encased. We were like iron men, like completely encased in Faraday cages of like, everything that you could protect. And, you know, we literally had to create SOPs, which I think was one of the cool things, because we were on the cutting edge of like, these intelligent operations. And we did have, especially when I was there, we had such a good relationship with the agency. And one of the things that we ended up doing and why we had such a close relationship with the agency is if anybody understands the different types of authorities, like Title 10, Title 40. One of the reasons we started running and gunning with them was because we fault our dod. They don't. And in certain situations, there were loopholes where we could do things that they couldn't and vice versa. So we found that there was this tandem relationship that we could find loopholes between the two organizations. And so we actually built a really good. So I actually spent a lot of time in CIS a spaces and a lot of different embassies throughout the world, which, to be honest, those were some of outside of the tactile stuff, some of My favorite missions.

Jack Murphy (115:19)

Yeah, ISA is an interesting unit in the sense that you guys can conduct covert operations, clandestine operations, or just normal overt military operations. Yeah, I don't think there are too many people that can do that.

Joe England (115:32)

No, there's not. And I think that's, you know, one of the things that people confuse. Like, they think RRC and ISA are very similar organizations. And then that's like, the big difference is one, you know, I don't think RSC is nearly close to the size as ISA is and has the reach, but also the clan side of things and the COVID side of things is like, where we separate and we do that RRC doesn't really do that much of. And actually, I will say this. We did. I never operationally worked with rrc, but I did a number of training exercises with RRC from the tactical attachment. And I love to say they are some of the most professional guys outside of cag. I would say that RRC is probably one of the most professional organizations I've ever worked with.

Jack Murphy (116:25)

Yeah, they're wired tight.

Joe England (116:27)

Yeah. There's just something about Rangers in general that I just think, like, my advice to anybody, you want to go to Delta, don't. I would say go to Ranger and then go to Delta. Like, if you want to go to sf, cool. But, like, I think you learn the greatest skills that you need to go to Delta from the Ranger bat.

Jack Murphy (116:45)

Yeah, man. No, Ranger battalion is awesome. We got one more.

Joe England (116:49)

It's funny, it was a question about ISA and RRC interfacing, and you literally just answered.

Jack Murphy (116:55)

And he just answered.

Joe England (116:56)

Okay. Yeah, so we definitely interfaced on the tactical side of things, which, you know, we did. We did a number of free fall jumps together. We did a couple of different. They were all training exercises. But yeah, they are definitely a very professional organization. You know, when you operate with Blue and Green, look. And I don't want to throw anybody on the bus, but especially when you deal with blue. Right. I will put it this way. I went to. So I got to. I obviously I worked with them and I was on their JORD cycle. But the most. The first time I worked with them was actually in Freefall Jump Master course and in Freefall Jump Master there one. So they actually don't. So both Green and Blue don't send their. So their second guys are support guys. Right. So they don't go to Freeform. Like. Like our SIGA guys are actual, like, operatives. Like, they're not support side. Right. So that's one of the biggest differences. And when you when you show up there. When I went to Free Fall Jump master, obviously there's their singing. Guys never get to go to Free Fall, so I'm there. And the the freefall course is you got the frogmen or your salters, right? And then you got your this is.

Teddi Mellencamp (118:14)

Teddy Mellencamp from two T's in a Pod with Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. All right, lovers and dreamers, buckle up because there's a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, and it's hotter than ever.

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Tamara Judge (118:48)

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Teddi Mellencamp (119:03)

And after Courtney's unexpected romance with Colt, find out if his history of cheating will come back to bite the relationship for good.

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Teddi Mellencamp (119:18)

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Joe England (120:10)

Boat guys?

Jack Murphy (120:11)

Yeah, the SWCC guys and I have.

Joe England (120:13)

Never seen, like two groups of people who hate each other more than frogmen and boat guys. Literally. I went there, I was the only ISA student during this course, and we brought one of my mentors who's actually he was an instructor, so he actually helped instruct the course. We literally just sat there and we watched these Two just basically rip each other in half. Like, we're doing like JMPIs, and these guys are calling each other, like, almost going to blows on a daily basis. And dude. And the boat guys just hate, hate the frogman. Like, that was my experience. And then the, the support guys there were just like, they lived in fear from, from their assaulters. And then you go to Green and you're like, these dudes are my best friends. Like, they love these guys, right? So, yeah, it was very interesting.

Jack Murphy (121:09)

And then how did the RRC bros compare to that?

Joe England (121:13)

They, they were very similar to cag. Like, they definitely were. Like, these guys are enablers, right? And especially when they started going to. Especially a cag, when they started going to the Intelligence Squadron. Because you'll hear this a lot, especially from Ms. Tiggin, right? And it's, it's like par for the course, especially from 18 Alphas. You'll have an 18 Alpha will come up to you and be like, hey, can you do this wizardry? Right? And I'll be like, sir, that's not how RF energy works, right? You have to explain it to them. Like, that's not how any of this works, right? And then when you started having the KAG assaulters go and they start learning, you know, they learn human, they learn sigint, they learn everything. Osint, you know, computer stuff. And then when they start going and they go back to the teams and now they're working along their sicken guys and they're like, oh, I understand how the machine works. And they understand its limitations. So their troop commanders were no longer giving these ridiculous requests, like, hey, could you hit the satellite? Beam it down? And then get, you know, all this stuff and his wife's stuff, and then, you know, get me some, you know, all these different things like, no, sir, I can't do that. And then, you know, and so just, they just developed this really good professional relationship and they really started to appreciate their support guys. And they, they appreciate all their support guys. They treat them so well, like as far as any organization I've ever seen.

Jack Murphy (122:45)

So you had a pretty wild ride there in the military, especially on the exit out. Now you're recently retired. Tell us a little bit about where you're at today, what you're doing, what you'd like to do in the near future.

Joe England (122:59)

So I have a couple different things that I'm doing. So right now I really think that my purpose is to help other people. Like, my, my goal with my YouTube channel is to add value to people's Lives. For example, when I released this video about this investigation, the whole final third of it is what good leadership looks like. Right? Because I can sit here and complain all day about what, you know, what they did, whatever. I don't care. Like, if anything, another life lessons, another story that I get to tell. Like, these guys made me a stronger person because of it. Right. And makes good content. You know, the video is not doing too shabby, so. But I would be remiss if I didn't show people what good leadership is. Right. Because why do we have toxic leadership? Because those people were never showed, were never demonstrated by their leaders what good leadership looks like. Right. So every video that I make is, did I add value? That is the thing that I ask myself in every single video. Am I adding values to my life? Right. And then I also, from the mentality I stay away from how many views I get. I don't care if someone comes back with a single comment like, hey, this helped me. That video was worth it. Like, that's all that matters to me. Right. And I feel like it's like my calling because, you know, I'm able to break these things down. I'm a critical thinker and I have an ability to, especially when it comes to things that are geopolitical, to look at them from a strict history point of view without going into the political. Like, I just released a video about understanding Somalia and I was able to do it, explain why their culture has sort of embraced anarchy. Yes. And fraud and scam without going into sort of any political thing. Right. And. And I'm a subject matter expert when actually, especially when it comes to Iran and I speak Farsi. So my next video that I'm actually doing is Understanding Iran, but in the same format. And almost all the comments that I got from that video was like, hey, you really broke this down. I really appreciate it. So I'm putting my full focus right now into this. I am also, at the same time, I am randomly. I am actually studying to become a private wealth advisor.

Jack Murphy (125:25)

Cool.

Joe England (125:26)

If essentially this doesn't work out.

Jack Murphy (125:27)

Yeah.

Joe England (125:28)

That's awesome. I'm in the process of studying for my series 66 right now.

Jack Murphy (125:32)

Is that like, you manage like a wealth fund for a wealthy family.

Joe England (125:38)

Yes. So the difference, and I obviously, I didn't know this until one of my friends got me into this, is there's. When people think of, like, wealth advisors, right. Most people fall under what's called known as core wealth and then private wealth. Depending on the area, there's a minimum amount in an account in most places in the United States at a minimum $5 million. But if you go to like New York, it could be like 20, 30 million, 3. It has to be in that account to be considered private wealth. So but the interesting thing about it is it's because almost everybody who's in private wealth, their money has been in private wealth. Like they have brokers, right? So you make money off of like essentially annuities. Like you manage their money, you get 1%. Right. But these people, private wealth, these people already have wealth advisors. Right. So what ends up becoming, which is the difference with core, it's a sales job. So the first couple years you join a team and then your first job is just to go get accounts and you have to go get them from other people who already have wealth advisors. So it's a sales job and they structure it. Like if you do, if you end up getting a job through, let's just say your broker through like Morgan Stanley, they structure it that the first year they pay you a salary, but then after the second year your salary goes away. And because they want is like, so it's like a dog eat dog world. I almost think of it as like, it's like the tier one of private wealth management because if you don't make it like you're out. If you don't have those sales skills, you're not going to make it. And so they design it to weed people out, which I find fascinating. So it's like it's definitely the hardest of all. But if you are able to make it, every private wealth advisor that I know, and I know a bunch in Loudoun county, which is horse country out here in Virginia, which is randomly the richest country in the richest county in the United States, all the guys who are private wealth advisors have the best work life balance ratio. These guys make money. They work like two hours a day and then all they do is whatever they want.

Jack Murphy (127:38)

It's awesome. So tell folks out there listening where they can find you on YouTube, where they can find you on social media.

Joe England (127:47)

Yeah, so my, my YouTube channel is the Stoic Viking. The Instagram like it's also the Stoic Viking. I think it's the Stoic or Stoic Viking 2025. And, and so basically that's where I push majority of content. YouTube is like my, my, my main goal is the long form content because there I'm allowed to, I, I have the ability to talk about things in long form which I feel like those are the issues that need to be talked about whether it's mental health, fitness, health, nutrition, just overall philosophy going into life, how to deal with the hardships of life, grief, all these different things. I want to talk about the things that nobody wants to talk about and give guys an avenue and also create a community where people are positive. Like one thing that you're never going to see me do, I'm never going to get involved in a veto drama. Even if someone calls me out for claiming I did or did not something, I'm not responding. I don't care. You do you, bro, we're over here and I. And honestly, in any of my lives, if I hear anybody start talking bad about somebody else, I give them one warning. If not, they're kicked out. Because that's. We're about positivity. If we call out a problem, we're creating a solution. We're talking about it. Right? Because the only way you get rid of a problem like toxic leadership is we ourselves have to promote what good leadership looks like, because that's the only way this ever is going to change. Is it going to change overnight? No. But all we can do is do the right thing, be the better person, and altogether, that's how we make this life a better world and how we found it.

Jack Murphy (129:24)

Joe, before we get going tonight, is there anything else you'd like to say? Is there any other topics we haven't covered that you'd like to hash out?

Joe England (129:33)

Yeah, that's a good question. I'll probably think of something two minutes after we.

Tamara Judge (129:38)

We.

Joe England (129:38)

We hang up.

Jack Murphy (129:40)

It's okay. We can. We can do it again sometime if you're. If you want. And we'll also, for our listeners, we'll have links down in the description to all of Joe's social media and YouTube and all that other stuff. You'll be able to find it down there.

Joe England (129:52)

Absolutely. And once again, I, I appreciate it. It's been an honor. And you are officially my first podcast since I started this whole thing. So I can't think of anybody better than the. The investigative Green Beret Ranger investigative journalist himself.

Jack Murphy (130:08)

No, thank you for that. I mean, likewise, we try to avoid a lot of the vet bro drama, keep it relatively positive about people's careers and. And relatively apolitical and. Yeah, it's just not worth anyone's time, really, to get into all that. But again, thank you. Appreciate your time, Joe, and everyone else out there. We will see you again next time.

Joe England (130:32)

Absolutely. Thank you again, sir.

Teddi Mellencamp (130:34)

This is Teddy Mellencamp from Two Teas in a Pod with Teddy Mellencamp. And Tamara Judge. All right, lovers and dreamers, buckle up because there's a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, and it's hotter than ever.

Tamara Judge (130:46)

If you've never seen 90 day before, this is the one that will get you hooked. Their marriage is crumbled. Now eight singles are taking the leap and stepping back out to the first, scariest place of all, the dating world.

Teddi Mellencamp (131:00)

There will be exciting first dates, steamy hookups, big letdowns and potential love waiting in the most unexpected places.

Tamara Judge (131:09)

After Sophie's recent divorce, she's moving on to see if there's potential with a Dominican hottie. Some of you may know Pedro Gino has a full inbox of DMS and is trying for a second chance with one that got away.

Teddi Mellencamp (131:24)

And after Courtney's unexpected romance with Colt, find out if his history of cheating will come back to bite the relationship for good.

Tamara Judge (131:33)

Get ready for the season's hottest romance series full of surprises, sparks and connections.

Teddi Mellencamp (131:39)

Don't miss a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, Monday at 8 on TLC.

Ryan Seacrest (131:45)

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Jack Murphy (132:33)

Hey guys, I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Teamhouse Podcast, the Eyes On Podcast, and the High side news outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week, it's going to come into your inbox and you're going to get the most current podcasts on Izon and the Team House and whatever's topical or current on the High side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you as social media algorithms are pretty iffy and you never really know what you're going to get. So this is a once a week email. It'll slide into your inbox and it will have you know the greatest hits of that week.

Joe England (133:14)

It's really good man. Checking it out.

Jack Murphy (133:17)

The website for it is teamhousepodcast.kit.com join teamhousepodcast kit.com join go there and you enter into your email list or you enter your email into the little thing on the website and you're good to go. And that'll be it. So we really appreciate your support support and hope you'll consider signing up.

Joe England (133:40)

Where's the link?

Jack Murphy (133:42)

The link will also be down in the description if you're looking for it there.

Joe England (133:45)

And that's Teamhouse Podcast Kit K I T kilo India tango.com backslash join this.

Teddi Mellencamp (133:55)

Is Teddy Mellencamp from Two Teas in a Pod with Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. All right, lovers and dreamers, buckle up because there's a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, and it's hotter than ever.

Tamara Judge (134:08)

If you've never seen 90 day before, this is the one that will get you hooked. Their marriages crumbled. Now eight singles are taking the leap and stepping back out to the scariest place of all, the dating world.

Teddi Mellencamp (134:21)

There will be exciting first dates, steamy hookups, big letdowns and potential love waiting in the most unexpected places.

Tamara Judge (134:30)

After Sophie's recent divorce, she's moving on to see if there's potential with a Dominican hottie that some of you may know. Pedro Gino has a full inbox of DMs and is trying for a second chance with one that got away.

Teddi Mellencamp (134:45)

And after Courtney's unexpected romance with Colt, find out if his history of cheating will come back to bite the relationship for good.

Tamara Judge (134:54)

Get ready for the season's hottest romance series, full of surprises, sparks and connections.

Teddi Mellencamp (135:01)

Don't miss a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, Monday at 8 on TLC.

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Teddi Mellencamp (136:12)

This is Teddy Mellencamp from Two Teas in a Pod with Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. All right, lovers and dreamers, buckle up because there's a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, and it's hotter than ever.

Tamara Judge (136:24)

If you've never seen 90 Day before, this is the one that will get you hooked. Their marriages crumbled. Now eight singles are taking the leap and stepping back out to the scariest place of all the dating world.

Teddi Mellencamp (136:38)

There will be exciting first dates, steamy hookups, big letdowns and potential love waiting in the most unexpected places.

Tamara Judge (136:47)

After Sophie's recent divorce, she's moving on to see if there's potential with a Dominican hottie. Some of you may know Pedro Gino has a full inbox of DMs and is trying for a second chance with one that got away.

Teddi Mellencamp (137:01)

And after Courtney's unexpected romance with Colt, find out if his history of cheating will come back to bite the relationship for good.

Tamara Judge (137:11)

Get ready for the season's hottest romance series, full of surprises, sparks and connections.

Teddi Mellencamp (137:17)

Don't miss a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, Monday at 8 on TLC.

Ryan Seacrest (137:23)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's cough, cold and flu season. Do not get caught feeling under the weather. Get back to feeling good with savings on all your cold and flu Essentials. Now through February 24th. Shop in store or online to stock up and save on items like Mucinex Fast Max Liquid Gels, Vicks dayquil and nyquil Combo packs, Holes, cough drops and Tylenol Children's liquid. Offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

VRBO Advertiser (137:54)

Day or night, VRBoCare is here 24? 7 to help make every part of your stay seamless. If anything comes up or you simply need a little guidance, support is ready whenever you reach out. From the moment you book to the moment you head home. We're here to help things run smoothly because a great trip starts with the right support. And hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either.

Teddi Mellencamp (138:30)

This is Teddi Mellencamp from Two Teas in a Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. All right, lovers and dreamers, buckle up because there's a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, and it's hotter than ever.

Tamara Judge (138:42)

If you've never seen 90 Day before, this is the one that will get you hooked. Their marriages crumbled. Now eight singles are taking the leap and stepping back out to the scariest place of all the dating world.

Teddi Mellencamp (138:56)

There will be exciting first dates, steamy hookups, big letdowns and potential love waiting in the most unexpected places.

Tamara Judge (139:05)

After Sophie's recent divorce, she's moving on to see if there's potential with a Dominican hottie. She Some of you may know Pedro Gino has a full inbox of DMs and is trying for a second chance with one that got away.

Teddi Mellencamp (139:19)

And after Courtney's unexpected romance with Colt, find out if his history of cheating will come back to bite the relationship for good.

Tamara Judge (139:29)

Get ready for the season's hottest romance series, full of surprises, sparks and connections.

Teddi Mellencamp (139:35)

Don't miss a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, Monday at 8 on TLC.

Ryan Seacrest (139:41)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's cough, cold and flu season. Do not get caught feeling under the weather. Get back to feeling good with savings on all your cold and flu Essentials now through February 24th. Shop in store or online to stock up and save on items like Mucinex Fast Max Liquid Gels, Vicks dayquil and nyquil Combo Packs, holes, cough drops and Tylenol Children's Liquid. The offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

VRBO Advertiser (140:12)

With VRBoCare. Help is always ready before, during and after your stay. We've planned for the plot twists, so support is always available because a great trip starts with peace of mind.

Joe England (140:30)

Foreign.

Teddi Mellencamp (140:34)

This is Teddy Mellencamp from Two Teas in a Pod with Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. All right, lovers and dreamers, buckle up because there's a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, and it's hotter than ever.

Tamara Judge (140:47)

If you've never seen 90 day before, this is the one that will get you hooked. Their marriage is crumbled. Now eight singles are taking the leap and stepping back out to the fe scariest place of all the dating world.

Teddi Mellencamp (141:01)

There will be exciting first dates, steamy hookups, big letdowns and potential love waiting in the most unexpected places.

Tamara Judge (141:09)

After Sophie's recent divorce, she's moving on to see if there's potential with a Dominican hottie. Some of you may know Pedro Gino has a full inbox of DMs and is trying for a second chance with one that got away.

Teddi Mellencamp (141:24)

And after Courtney's unexpected romance with Colt. Find out if his history of cheating will come back to bite the relationship for good.

Tamara Judge (141:33)

Get ready for the season's hottest romance series full of surprises, sparks and connections.

Teddi Mellencamp (141:40)

Don't miss a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, Monday at 8 on TLC.

Ryan Seacrest (141:46)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's cough, cold and flu season. Do not get caught feeling under the weather. Get back to feeling good with savings on all your cold and flu Essentials now through February 24th. Shop in store or online to stock up and save on items like Mucinex Fast Max Liquid Gels, Vicks Dayquil and nyquil Combo packs, Hall's Cough Drops and Tylenol Children's liquid. Offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

VRBO Advertiser (142:17)

Support is available 24. 7 with Verbo Care. We're here day or night, ready whenever you need help because a great trip starts with the right support.

Teddi Mellencamp (142:40)

This is Teddi Mellencamp from Chew Teas in a Pod with Teddi Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. All right, lovers and dreamers, buckle up because there's a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, and it's hotter than ever.

Tamara Judge (142:52)

If you've never seen 90 day before, this is the one that will get you hooked. Their marriages crumbled. Now eight singles are taking the leap and stepping back out to the scariest place of all, the dating world.

Teddi Mellencamp (143:06)

There will be exciting first dates, steamy hookups, big letdowns and potential love waiting in the most unexpected places.

Tamara Judge (143:15)

After Sophie's recent divorce, she's moving on to see if there's potential with a Dominican hottie that some of you may know. Pedro Gino has a full inbox of DMs and is trying for a second chance with one that got away.

Teddi Mellencamp (143:29)

And after Courtney's unexpected romance with Colt, find out if his history of cheating will come back to bite the relationship for good.

Tamara Judge (143:39)

Get ready for the season's hottest romance series, full of surprises, sparks and connections.

Teddi Mellencamp (143:45)

Don't miss a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, Monday at 8 on TLC.

Ryan Seacrest (143:51)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Are you feeling those winter blues? Well, do not worry, they've got you covered with ways to boost your mood. Add a little sweetness to your day with big savings on all your favorite sweets. Shop in store or online and save on Items like Gummy Savers, five flavors Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, Sour Patch, Watermelon M&M's Party Size, stand Up Bags and Ferrero Rocher Mixed Variety squares. Offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

VRBO Advertiser (144:23)

At Vrbo, we understand that even the best of plans sometimes need a little support, so we plan for the plot twists. Every booking is automatically backed by our VRBO Care Guarantee, giving you confidence from the very start. Whenever you need help, it's ready before your stay through the moments in the between and after your trip. Because a great trip starts with peace of mind and maybe a good playlist. But we've got the peace of mind part covered.

Teddi Mellencamp (145:00)

This is Teddy Mellencamp from Chew Teas in a Pod with Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. All right, lovers and dreamers, buckle up because there's a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, and it's hotter than ever.

Tamara Judge (145:12)

If you've never seen 90 Day before, this is the one that will get you hooked. Their marriages crumbled. Now eight singles are taking the leap and stepping back out to the scariest place of all the dating world.

Teddi Mellencamp (145:26)

There will be exciting first dates, steamy hookups, big letdowns and potential love waiting in the most unexpected places.

Tamara Judge (145:35)

After Sophie's recent divorce, she's moving on to see if there's potential with a Dominican hottie. Some of you may know Pedro Gino has a full inbox of DMs and is trying for a second chance with one that got away.

Teddi Mellencamp (145:49)

And after Courtney's unexpected romance with Colt, find out if his history of cheating will come back to bite the relationship for good.

Tamara Judge (145:59)

Get ready for the season's hottest romance series, full of surprises, sparks and connections.

Teddi Mellencamp (146:05)

Don't miss a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, Monday at 8 on TLC.

Ryan Seacrest (146:11)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Are you feeling those winter blues? Well, do not worry, they've got you covered with ways to boost your mood. Add a little sweetness to your day with big savings on all your favorite sweets. Shop in store or online and save on Items like Gummy Savers. Five flavors Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, Sour Patch, Watermelon, M&M's Party Size Stand Up Bags and Ferrero Rocher Mixed Variety squares. Offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

VRBO Advertiser (146:43)

At Vrbo, we understand that even the best of plans sometimes need a little support, so we plan for the plot twists. Every booking is automatically backed by our VRBO Care Guarantee, giving you confidence from the very start whenever you need help. It's ready before your Stay through the moments in between, between and after your trip. Because a great trip starts with peace of mind and maybe a good playlist, but we've got the peace of mind part covered.

Teddi Mellencamp (147:18)

This is Teddi Mellencamp from Two Teas in a Pod with Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. All right, lovers and dreamers, buckle up because there's a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, and it's hotter than ever.

Tamara Judge (147:30)

If you've never seen 90 day before, this is the one that will get you hooked. Their marriages crumbled. Now eight singles are taking the leap and stepping back out to the scariest place of all, the dating world.

Teddi Mellencamp (147:44)

There will be exciting first dates, steamy hookups, big letdowns and potential love waiting in the most unexpected places.

Tamara Judge (147:53)

After Sophie's recent divorce, she's moving on to see if there's potential with a Dominican hottie that some of you may know. Pedro Gino has a full inbox of DMS and is trying for a second chance with one that got away.

Teddi Mellencamp (148:07)

And after Courtney's unexpected romance with Colt, find out if his history of cheating will come back to bite the relationship for good.

Tamara Judge (148:17)

Get ready for the season's hottest romance series full of surprises, sparks and connections.

Teddi Mellencamp (148:23)

Don't miss a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, Monday at 8 on TLC.

Ryan Seacrest (148:29)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Are you feeling those winter blues? Well, do not worry, they've got you covered with ways to boost your mood. Add a little sweetness to your day with big savings on all your favorite sweets. Shop in store or online and save on items like Gummy Savers. Five flavors Reese's Peanut Butter Cup Sour Patch Watermelon, M M's Party Size Stand Up Bags and Ferrero Rocher Mixed Variety squares. Offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

Tamara Judge (149:00)

At Fred's Discover the largest selection of in stock Get It Today inventory in our region. Express your personal style with GE Cafe modern colors with sleek custom hardware.

Jack Murphy (149:11)

To access any stylish kitchen, save up.

Tamara Judge (149:14)

To $3,000 with a Cafe Package rebate. Plus save up to an additional $800 with an exclusive Buy More, Save More rebate. Customize your kitchen style and take advantage of special savings. Today at Fred's Appliance we sell appliances, only appliances.

Ryan Seacrest (149:33)

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Are you feeling those winter blues? Well, do not worry, they've got you covered with ways to boost your mood. Add a little sweetness to your day with big savings on all your favorite sweets. Shop in store or online and save on items like Gummy Savers. Five flavors Reese's Peanut Butter Cup Sour Patch watermelon, M&M's party size stand Up Bags and Ferrero Rocher Mixed Variety squares. Offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

LifeLock Advertiser (150:04)

Are you a fraud paying American? 1 in 4 tax paying Americans has been a victim of identity fraud. With Lifelock. If your identity is stolen, they fix it guaranteed or your money back. Last year, billions in refunds were stolen. Could be from your salary, overtime or second job gone. But this year you don't need to stay a victim because this tax season, fraud paying American is something no American should have to claim. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com iheart Terms apply.

Teddi Mellencamp (150:34)

This is Teddy Mellencamp from Two Teas in a Pod with Teddy Mellencamp and Tamara Judge. There's a new season of 90 Day the Single Life. And it's hotter than ever.

Tamara Judge (150:45)

If you've never seen 90 day before, this is the one that will get you hooked. Their marriages crumbled. Now eight singles are taking the lead and stepping back out to the scariest place of all, the dating world.

Teddi Mellencamp (150:59)

There will be exciting first dates, steamy hookups, big letdowns and potential love waiting in the most unexpected places.

Tamara Judge (151:08)

Don't miss a new season of 90 Day the Single Life, Monday at 8 on TLC.