Fearful Avoidants Can't Be Themselves Until They Understand This

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Fearful Avoidants Can't Be Themselves Until They Understand This"

Host: Thais Gibson
Guest: Liesl (Personal Development School Student)
Date: June 29, 2026

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Overview:

This episode dives deeply into the experience of Fearful Avoidant attachment styles, specifically focusing on how past wounds and learned patterns prevent Fearful Avoidants from feeling truly themselves in relationships. Through an intimate, real-time coaching conversation with Liesl, a mother of seven, listeners witness how old traumas, family patterns, and subconscious beliefs combine to drive self-betrayal, emotional suppression, and difficulty embracing vulnerability. Thais and Liesl explore how personal healing, self-compassion, and subconscious rewiring—rather than self-judgment—can foster true connection, both with oneself and others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights:

1. The Roots of Emotional Suppression and Fearful Avoidant Patterns

• Liesl’s Background: Raised in a family that discouraged the open expression of emotions (03:05), Liesl learned early to suppress vulnerability, starting as a Dismissive Avoidant in childhood.
  • “We were raised to have no emotions. So I…we didn’t show emotion. We were just happy.” – Liesl (03:05)
• Transition to Fearful Avoidant: Her marriage to a husband struggling with addiction and infidelity pushed her from dismissive to fearful avoidant, marked by anxiety, skepticism, and hypervigilance.

2. Trauma, Loss, and Self-Preservation in Relationships

• Survival Mode: Liesl describes years of living in survival mode, focused on protecting her children from chaos and harm, often at the expense of her own identity. (06:27–14:49)
  • “I was in survival mode for years.” – Liesl (14:49)
• Coping with Grief: After her husband’s passing, Liesl initially felt relief rather than only grief—a reaction Thais normalizes as an indicator of accumulated trauma and exhaustion.
  • “For me, how I felt was…relief...I don’t have to have this, like, anymore.” – Liesl (12:17)

3. Loss of Self and Codependency in Relationships

• Losing Selfhood: Liesl finds her sense of self, interests, and happiness resurface when she is not in a relationship, linking her identity to codependent behaviors learned during her marriage. (15:02–17:23)
  • “In relationships, I lose that again. I don’t know how to maintain it.” – Liesl (15:54)
• The All-or-Nothing Mindset: Fearful Avoidants often see a relationship with self and a relationship with another as mutually exclusive, which fuels "push-pull" dynamics and fear of commitment. (17:54)
  • “It’s either relationship to myself or relationship to you. And there’s no in between.” – Thais (17:54)

4. Core Wounds: Betrayal, Unworthiness, and Unlovability

• Painful Beliefs: Liesl identifies betrayal, rejection, feeling unwanted, bad, and unlovable as recurring wounds stemming from her relational traumas. (19:12–20:03)
  • “I will be betrayed…I cannot trust. I am unwanted. I feel unlovable. I feel so many of…” – Liesl (19:12–20:03)
• Impact on Communication: Fear of being misunderstood, rejected, or weak makes vulnerability and expressing needs almost impossible.
  • “I have a really hard time now being vulnerable, and being even willing to think about saying something.” – Liesl (20:03)

5. The Vicious Cycle of Self-Suppression

• Cutting Off Intimacy: The inability to express needs leads to inauthenticity and isolation, which paradoxically deepens the yearning for connection.
  • “If you can’t know what you need or express it, then you can’t be authentic, and then you can’t really have connection.” – Liesl (22:32)
  • “You prequalify yourself from real love.” – Thais (22:48)

6. Rewiring and Healing: CBT and Evidence-Based Reprogramming

• Challenging Old Stories: Thais uses cognitive behavioral questioning to help Liesl examine the validity of her beliefs about weakness and rejection. (21:53–25:23)
  • “Can you 100% know that that’s the truth?” – Thais (21:52)
  • “I want to do it, but I’m totally terrified.” – Liesl (25:02)
• Finding Evidence for Acceptance: Thais guides Liesl to recall real moments of acceptance and support from family and children, shifting her focus from rejection to love (26:13–39:06).
  • Notable moment: Liesl’s sister reassures her, “Liesl, I’m gonna love you no matter what you choose.” (27:05)
  • Acts of love from her children—notes, physical affection, small acts of service—surface as signs of deep connection.

7. Recognizing and Breaking Self-Betrayal

• Reenacting Core Wounds: Liesl realizes she perpetuates her betrayal wound by betraying her own needs, feelings, and boundaries (43:00–44:04).
  • “When people have a huge core wound of abandonment, they also self-abandon more than anybody else.” – Thais (43:00)
• Practical Self-Audit: Thais introduces a daily practice: “Did I betray myself anywhere today? What can I do instead?”—empowering self-loyalty and healthy boundaries. (72:02–72:55)

8. Moving from Judgment to Curiosity and Compassion

• ICA Technique (Inquiry, Compassion, Accountability): In moments of self-judgment, Thais urges shifting to curiosity about root causes, practicing self-compassion, and then taking accountable action—rather than simply blaming or punishing oneself. (58:05–69:32)
  • “Instead of judgment, we want to go into curiosity. If we want to pick a time you made a mistake…get curious about the root cause. What was causing you to feel so stressed or afraid?” – Thais (58:05)
  • “Nobody actually gets better from punishing themselves.” – Thais (69:32)

9. Allowing Grace and Reframing Innocence

• Granting Self-Compassion: Liesl struggles to grant herself grace and accept her human mistakes as a mother—but is gently encouraged to see her innocence and good intentions, as she would for any other struggling parent. (56:48–57:41)
  • “You don’t even give yourself the grace God would want you to give yourself.” – Thais (53:39)

10. Action Steps for Healing

• Concrete Tools:
  • Daily Rewiring: Listen to a recording of all the evidence for being loved, accepted, and innocent as a mother for 21 days as a subconscious reprogramming tool (45:42–45:52).
  • Auto-Suggestion: Practice affirmations around loyalty and self-acceptance.
  • Seeing Yourself: Commit to regularly checking in on needs, feelings, boundaries, and honoring yourself—even in small moments.
  • ICA Practice: Move from judgment to curiosity to compassion, then hold oneself accountable for new, growth-oriented behavior.

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Notable Quotes & Key Moments (with Timestamps)

• “If vulnerability literally causes your nervous system to go into high alert…that is not a personality trait…it’s self-preservation mode out of fear of being hurt.” – Thais (00:00)
• “When I’m in relationships…I lose that [sense of self] again. I don’t know how to maintain it.” – Liesl (15:54)
• “For me…relief. I don’t have to have this, like, anymore.” – Liesl on her husband’s passing (12:17)
• “If you can’t know what you need or express it, you can’t be authentic, and then you can’t have connection.” – Liesl (22:32)
• “You prequalify yourself from real love.” – Thais (22:48)
• “I want to do it, but I’m totally terrified.” – Liesl on vulnerability (25:02)
• “The only way to actually course correct for mistakes isn’t through judgment…Nobody actually gets better from punishing themselves.” – Thais (69:32)
• “You don’t even give yourself the grace God would want you to give yourself.” – Thais (53:39)
• “Did I betray myself anywhere today? What am I gonna do instead?” – Thais (72:54)
• “When we look for good, we see good.” – Liesl (34:50)

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Takeaway Exercise (as outlined in episode @ 72:54)

1. Daily Self-Loyalty Check-In:
   • Ask: Did I betray myself anywhere today?
   • Decide: What will I do instead to honor my needs, feelings, or boundaries?
2. Rewiring Routine:
   • Listen to or journal about specific evidence of acceptance, love, and innocence—daily for at least 21 days.
3. Practice ICA:
   • Inquiry: Get curious about why negative patterns or judgments arise.
   • Compassion: Offer yourself empathy for your struggles, as you would to a friend.
   • Accountability: Identify a small, actionable step toward change—without harsh self-criticism.

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Episode Tone and Atmosphere

Warm, validating, and therapeutically supportive. Thais holds a gentle, compassionate space for deep, often painful reflection, honoring Liesl’s courage while providing actionable tools.

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Summary Table of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Focus | Main Insights / Quotes | |----------------|------------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–02:39 | Intro & episode purpose | Vulnerability, nervous system, preview of themes | | 03:05–14:49 | Liesl’s background & survival | Generational suppression, loss of self | | 14:49–17:54 | Relationships and losing identity | “I was in survival mode for years.” | | 19:12–22:48 | Core wounds & their impact | “I will be betrayed...I feel unlovable.” | | 24:40–34:50 | Challenging limiting beliefs | CBT questioning of "weak"/"rejected" | | 35:07–42:44 | Recognizing real moments of love | Stories of sibling & child affection | | 43:00–44:04 | Self-betrayal patterns | “Self-abandonment keeps core wounds alive.” | | 58:05–69:32 | ICA method for self-judgment | Move from judgment to curiosity & accountability | | 72:02–73:35 | Loyalty wound & daily check-in | “You can’t be loyal to someone you can’t see.” | | 75:11–end | Closing reflections & action steps | Practice, tools, encouragement to listeners |

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For Listeners:

If you resonate with these patterns or know someone who does, the episode offers both deep relatable storytelling and powerful, practical tools you can start applying immediately for your own healing journey.

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Transcript

[A]

If vulnerability literally causes your nervous system to go into high alert and causes you to feel this need to shut down, almost like you literally cannot physically let your body go there, that is not a personality trait. It's not a part of who you are. That is a subconscious mind and an entire rest of your nervous system that needs to pull away and go into self preservation mode out of fear of being hurt. And chances are, if you're experiencing this, you've probably been deeply hurt in your past. But here's the reality check. The only way out is through small, deliberate, repeated exposure to experiences that allow your nervous system to experience different outcomes this time around. If you were hurt or lied to in the past, allowing yourself to be in connection with people who can be honest with you in the present. And as you start to have these new experiences, your body starts to learn something different. And in today's episode, what you're going to see is how to structure doing this in a way that your nervous system can actually take in and take on in a way that produces new and safe outcomes for your future. And you're actually going to learn through a lovely student of ours in the personal development school named Liesl. And she is finally willing to face her fear of vulnerability and understand the necessary steps that must be taken to move through this fear in order to build better connections with others in the future. And so if this is something you struggle with or even somebody you love struggles with and you want to better understand them, you're about to follow along not just with this understanding of seeing this in somebody else firsthand so that you can relate and really learn through their experience in a clear way. But on top of that, you'll learn an exercise at the end of the segment that you can start doing today to overcome that fear of vulnerability and to replace it with courage. Courage that leads to courageous new behaviors and thus, of course, courageous new outcomes in your life. Welcome to the Breakthrough with Titus Gibson podcast. I'm here today with our amazing guest, Liesl, who's going to be going through and really recognizing long standing patterns. Liesl's been through a lot in her relationship history and because of a lot of these themes, has deeply ingrained core wounds around the fear of being betrayed, unloved and bad. And when we have these core wounds, it causes us to very much shut off to seeing where we are lovable or seeing our own innocence. And so not only are you going to be able to see firsthand how to work through these old stories today so that if you share in These at home. You can follow this path and do the same work, but you're gonna see how relatable this is and see how you can finally start to transform these old narratives.

[B]

Hi, I'm Liesel, and I'm a fearful avoidant, and I'm here to work on my fearful avoidant patterns.

[A]

Beautiful. Thank you for being here today. I'm so excited that you're here and really grateful that you made the time and came out here. And if we can just start by digging in a little bit to the themes that have made you. You. So what do you notice looking back in your childhood, good or bad, Anything that sort of stands out about who you were and how that's made you who you are today?

[B]

That's a good question. I was raised on a farm in Basin City, Washington, and we were raised to have no emotions. So I. And not, like, vocally, but through my parents,

[A]

indirectly.

[B]

Yeah. And so I think that's. I was very much DA growing up, and. I don't know. It's. We didn't. Yeah. We didn't show emotion. We were just happy.

[A]

We just suppress everything else.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, no matter. No matter what, I didn't recognize it then. I didn't know it, you know, and that was okay. Like, life was. Life was good and. But. Okay. I don't remember the rest.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's good. And. And do you notice, like, how long did those patterns essentially go on for?

[B]

Okay, so I don't think I. I started dating my husband in high school. I was a junior, and I think when I started dating him, things started changing, and he. He. I was very naive or chose to be oblivious or something. And drugs. He. I didn't realize this again. I just chose not to see things. Or I was naive again. I don't know. But he was using, and I didn't realize this until we were married later, but. And. And he would cheat on me, whatever. And I. Through that, I remember big experiences of where I felt like I needed to, like, contact him or reach out or make some kind of a connection. And my anxiety would get so huge, and I wouldn't know how to handle it. And I just felt like I was going crazy inside. And then it would go down and. Right. And then it would come back, and. And then. So then we got married, and it kept going. And. Anyway, so I feel like that's where, like, I became from dismissive avoidant to fearful avoidant.

[A]

Okay. That makes a lot of sense. And how old were you when you got married?

[B]

I don't remember. 22 maybe. We had. I had our first kid right after I turned 20. I graduated high school, played college volleyball for a year, and then got pregnant. And then we didn't get married till I was pregnant with our second.

[A]

And how long did you stay married for?

[B]

He passed away seven years ago almost. So 2018. And we got married sometime before that.

[A]

And that's how. And so. So that. And you obviously, that's how you lost connection with him as he passed. It wasn't through getting divorced or separated earlier on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm really sorry to hear that would have been really hard. And so. So you were married for a long time and. And during that entire time was that same theme, consistent drug use, cheating?

[B]

Yeah, pretty much. He did get clean. He went to a rehab and it was clean for almost a year and a half. And then he used and passed away.

[A]

And you have how many children?

[B]

Seven.

[A]

Seven children.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I just imagine you trying to raise seven children and dealing with all of that and probably trying to caretake and look out for him and worry about him and his sobriety and having to worry about whether or not he was being faithful or honest or dishonest. And then trying to make sure that your kids are not in the middle of things in harm's way. And what was that like for you?

[B]

That was incredibly hard. I don't. I don't even know.

[A]

Probably aren't even words.

[B]

Yeah. I don't say. I'm not even sure how to explain that. Definitely like trying to keep my kids oblivious, which maybe that was wrong of me. I don't know.

[A]

Your best attempt at protecting them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

To what was going on. But he. I mean, yeah, I think it. Addiction does all kinds of things different ways. Right. Like, but with him, he. He. When he. Especially when he got into drugs, he would leave for a week and I wouldn't be able to get a hold of him and I wouldn't know what. You know, am I gonna, like, find out he's dead somewhere? Like, I. And it was just, um. I had no idea how to handle that. Right.

[A]

That's incredibly hard.

[B]

Yeah. And my kids were all quite young at that time. 2013, 6, 7. Was my oldest. And so, you know, anyways, I didn't have all them by then, but I didn't. I didn't know how to handle it. Well, probably. But I. I tried to. Yeah. Protect them in the best way that I knew how at the time. Which. Right. Wrong. I don't know.

[A]

No. Well, doing an incredible job for how hard something is as well. And so did you, did they know that you're. That their father was using or did they just not really know?

[B]

No. And actually at that point he was like hiding it from me. But I was like, this isn't right. Like I just know, like I could just tell this isn't right. Like I.

[A]

It's not normal how he's behaving.

[B]

Yeah. And he would use overtime as an excuse all the time or you know, just things like that, that to feed into what he felt his needs were.

[A]

So he used overtime as an excuse, you're saying? Yeah, he would say, I'm working overtime and late shifts and all these things.

[B]

It got to the point where I'm like, we don't need that. We need you. Like, yeah, but it was that.

[A]

Anyways, so and so during that time, was he. Would he. Were you working at all?

[B]

No, I've been a stay home mom.

[A]

Okay, good. So at least you had the opportunity to try it. Like I was thinking, yeah, oh my gosh, it's already so difficult and seven children. And I was like, so at least. You know what's really beautiful about that is that as hard as that was, like, I imagine that you did a really good job of trying to protect your kids and you were at least as present as you could be for what was going on. And at least they probably had one fairly stable person there. Is that fair to say, for that

[B]

part of their lives? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And so, so you think that during that time that was how you became fearful of light? Because then you see the extreme betrayal, the never knowing what was going on, the anxiety and fear of losing the person when he's missing for a week at a time sometimes, and all of the uncertainty. And then was there any behavior from him where he was trapping or controlling or anything like that? Or just.

[B]

He would. And I don't like, like confrontation, which I think is actually a FA thing,

[A]

maybe conflict, a more dismissive, avoidant thing. Fearful ones will avoid conflict for a while, but then eventually they'll, they'll come on really strong in conflict. But if you have a history of being DA and then that relationship is there, not knowing how to handle conflict will probably be a quite primary thing for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Up until that point.

[B]

Yeah. So he, he. And he was very good with words. And I feel like I'm more simple minded, like, which I don't. It's okay with me.

[A]

Or you just want to see the best in people maybe.

[B]

I don't know. Anyway, so he was he was good at manipulating me.

[A]

Okay. Good at lying, good at deceiving.

[B]

And if this is right or not. I feel like I've kind of pieced this together. I would, like, I need, like, explain to me why, like, and then I'll feel better. And he would. And I would go into it, like, I would just. Okay. Like now. Now that you've explained whatever to me. Okay. I feel better. Yeah. And even though it was more just.

[A]

Okay, so there's this part of you that's always wanting to see the best. And also, it's very true that fearful avoidance respond very well to context and transparency. But what's hard is if you get false transparency. Right. So somebody's telling you context and they explain, and they have great explanations, but they're not necessarily the truth.

[B]

Yes. Because. Yeah, I'm very skeptical. I feel like.

[A]

And when. Okay, so when did that start kicking in where you became very skeptical? Was that through years and years of going through that with him?

[B]

I would say so. And now I don't know how to be in relationship and not be skeptical.

[A]

Yeah, that's very common. After, I feel like I am, like,

[B]

always, and it's actually really draining. And I don't love it that I feel like I'm always, like, looking for the tiniest little things, like the way you say something or you didn't say something or, like, you know, just like, the. And anyways. Yeah. But, yeah, through that, I, I. At what point exactly? Probably a few years after being married, I started feeling that way where I'm, like, doing that.

[A]

You're trying to protect yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And so, you know, it might be a tricky thing, but when he passed, what did you experience? Like, was there a sense of extreme grief for a very long time, Was there extreme grief and also a little bit of, like, okay, I can step out of this now, of being in the hot and cold and back and forth and wondering, how did you deal with that? And how did you deal with that as a mother? Okay.

[B]

Well, for me, how I felt was, this may sound bad, but relief.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was like, not to downplay that. It wasn't hard, but initially, I think it was just relief.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I don't have to have this, like, anymore. It doesn't. Like, it's. And even just, like, in my home, like, I. Maybe even. Especially in my home, like, I don't. Trying to protect my kids from, like, for so long was just, like, I was so tired of it. And so then it was like, it's gone. I don't Ever have to be around any of this ever again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then. But then I think that grief came maybe more later.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of just the missing him and loneliness. And I think when people pass, you see the good more and just you

[A]

miss them and things about them and different things that they did do or different ways and you have a long history like, you know, it wasn't a short lived relationship. There's a lot there.

[B]

And if I. And if I'm being honest, Luke was his name, was a really good person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Had his own really hard past and struggles and. But he was. Is a good person. I think he was a really good friend for people.

[A]

Yeah. And a good person who maybe made it really hard to be in a relationship with. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you'd be surprised at how common it is to hear situations like this and hear that the first thing people experience. So there's a sense of. And honestly, whenever you hear that, whenever I hear that, it's usually just a representation of how much trauma you had to endure during the relationship. And it's not like a lack of love or a lack of care for that person or like you said, seeing the good later and some of the grief coming in a little bit longer, but just constantly running on the hamster wheel of worrying about this and this lie and this dishonesty and trying to protect this child from this situation and then that one from this one. And it just, it's so much for people that sometimes it's like, okay, I get a second to catch my breath. So I'm going to imagine that going through that you didn't really get a chance to have a sense of self.

[B]

No, definitely not.

[A]

Where was there room and probably didn't get to really look at like what you needed as a person or figure out much of who you were outside of a relationship or outside of being a mother. Because you're in survival mode for a very long.

[B]

I was in survival mode for years. Yeah.

[A]

And so do you feel like that is something you've gotten to really explore now or you figure it out or do you feel like you're kind of just starting to ask more of those questions?

[B]

I think I. This is interesting to me and I don't know how this plays in, but. So after he passed away, probably after a couple of months, I started to feel desires to do things again. Like I like to do things with my hands. I like. I'm a master at nothing but good at many things.

[A]

I always admire those people who are just good at everything.

[B]

Um, so I You know, I started like building things again and I started crocheting or playing volleyball. I love volleyball and I miss that. And so I started having interests again. And I think it grew. But when I'm in relationships, I don't. I don't. I lose that again. Yeah. So I don't know how to anyways.

[A]

Because you learned to only function in a relationship as a highly codependent person for that whole time. Which meant that for you, your identity and all of your subconscious conditioning about what it means to be with somebody means to actively give up your sense of self. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So all those subconscious mind patterns go. It's like your subconscious has a. If it had a voice, it would say, oh, what do we know about being in a relationship? Oh, well, it's just always about the relationship and the person and taking care of everybody else and worrying about them. And then there's no room for you to exist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's your comfort zone. There is being in a relationship like that. And it's a huge part of being fearful. Avoidance. So when you go into relationship and you operate that way and you start thinking like, okay, I guess it's just all about this person. And this is my focus now. Even if you don't intend to be that way. But if your thoughts and. And feelings start focusing on that person, what does that cost you?

[B]

This. I lose a sense of happiness. I don't know if that sounds wrong, but it's like I like when. For the periods in my life or to been. I feel like few where I feel like I get to know me. I'm happy. Like I just. And I feel like I have more to give people. I have more capacity to love and enjoy life and. And for my kids. And so I feel like I lose that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I don't know how to maintain it. I'm sure there's a way for people to maintain it. I've heard of happy people in relationship, but I. And so then I actually, I think. And then I start resenting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So then it's. It's. Yeah. Which is fair.

[A]

Which isn't fair. But is also. You see how you arrive there. Right. It's like, well, I gave up my whole self for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if there's a problem. How dare you. I gave up my whole self for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But fearful avoidance are very well known for believing that when they enter into a relationship, it's either relationship to myself or relationship to you. And there's no in between. And so it's very common for Fearful avoidance in their conditioning. And so it makes it scary to get into a relationship, and it makes it another layer to all those push pull patterns.

[B]

Well, it doesn't make it scary to get into a relationship necessarily, but it's scary to be, like, when commitment comes. I don't know if that's what you meant, because it's like I crave intimacy and connection and just like a person. Like. Like my person, I crave that. But then when it's.

[A]

When it's real and it's like a relationship, we're gonna.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then I'm like, you hear.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I don't know. Yeah.

[A]

Because it feels like I'm. What if I lose myself forever?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. What if I repeat and I have to go back through all of the things that I went through in the past relationship and how that was. And so if your subconscious mind knows that to be what relationships are, well, that's a big feat. So you can have all this love on one side and all this care, but if you associate relationships with all of this pain, then it makes it really, really difficult.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what do you think were some of the biggest wounds that came out of your. Your marriage? And I want to look at, you know, if there's specific moments in time that were really hard for you.

[B]

Okay. So, like, I will be betrayed is like. That is. That is like gold. I know that I cannot trust.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I don't know if that's like the same thing, but it's like I'm unwanted or there's something wrong with me. Like, like, why. Why am I not enough. Yeah.

[A]

For you to show up in a different way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you said also unwanted. Is that a really strong belief for you in there as well? Or something wrong with me sort of underneath that. Unwanted.

[B]

Um. I think I am unwanted. Is. Yeah. So I'm not sure if there's.

[A]

Yeah, that's okay. And sometimes it's like unworthiness or unlovable.

[B]

But I do feel unlovable. I feel so many of.

[A]

That's okay. Very common.

[B]

And I do. And I remember lots of times being like. So I think. And misunderstood, I think is. Or unheard or something. Because Luke was very good at talking and talking me out of things or whatever. And then when I would try to say something. Yes. And so then it was like, I'm not ever gonna say anything again. Like, why? Because you're not gonna hear me or whatever, you know, so. So that was. And I have a really hard time now, like, Being vulnerable and Being even willing to, like, think about saying something.

[A]

Well, it makes so much sense because you had years of, like, There was no room for that. So if you're met with constant and chronic disappointment around trying to express your needs or trying to be seen and heard or trying to be understood or be allowed to take up space without some kind of repercussion or it being shut down, then, like, literally, your conscious mind can even know it's time to communicate a need or it's time to say something, but your subconscious will block you.

[B]

Yeah. I sat there for probably 10 minutes in my head saying it. Just say it. It's not hard. Just say it.

[A]

Okay, so if I say. Say it, if I express a need, what do I make it mean? Or what am I afraid will happen?

[B]

I am weak. Yeah, that's for sure. And I don't think it'll get met. I'm afraid that I'll say something and

[A]

I'll be rejected anyways.

[B]

Oh, rejection's huge. Yeah, I know that. Yeah. Like, yeah.

[A]

Yeah, big one. Okay, so let's just start here for a second. We're gonna go into the big ones, the betrayal. But I just want to start here. So if I say a need, then I am weak. Can you 100% know that that's the truth?

[B]

No.

[A]

And what happens to you when you go through life and you want to say a need, or you have a moment where something is important to you, but you tell yourself this story that. No, no, I'm weak. If I do that or if I say that, what happens to you?

[B]

Like, my feelings inside everything.

[A]

How you live, how you move in the world, what you feel, all of it.

[B]

Okay. How I live. Well, I reject myself. I think, like, I'm not showing up with, like, even, like, an opportunity to be me.

[A]

That's for sure.

[B]

I. I'm noticing more the less I express, like. Or my lack of being able to express. I can't also, like, be authentic, and then I can't be vulnerable, and then I can't really have connection. Yes, if that.

[A]

That's beautifully said. That entire thread never really, like, dislocates from each other. Like, if you can't know what you need or express it vulnerably, then you can't be authentic, and then you can't have that level of connection. Everything you just said you like, those all go hand in hand 100% of the time. So as soon as you're missing one ingredient from that, then you lose connection, you lose authenticity. Like, vulnerability is such a powerful skill. For allowing authenticity and for allowing connection. And without it, we really lose out. And then it's hard because it's a fearful avoidant. You, like, want connection, like you said, you want your person and you yearn for that, but then you kind of cut it off from yourself in advance. And when we say, okay, I'm weak if I share vulnerably, then you pre disqualify yourself from real love. Right. In the name of I wonder if it's not weakness, actually rejection. A little bit stronger for you. So let's take a look at this one too. So let's finish weak for just a second.

[B]

I think.

[A]

No, you're good. I love that. I love that. It's good. But I'm gonna guess Maybe week is 10, 20% and rejection is the bigger one. Does that resonate with you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I want you to notice in this part of the episode how when Liesl has these long running stories, really, these long running stories tend to act like blinders for us as human beings. If you have a deep belief that you are unlovable, it's very hard to actually see how you are receiving love. And so in this part of the episode, you're going to see me encourage Liesl to question these stories using a cognitive behavioral therapy technique that allows us to poke at these old narratives, start looking for emotionally based evidence outside of these old stories, and actually start letting love in. So how is it strong or courageous to ask for your needs?

[B]

This makes me so uncomfortable. How am I strong or courageous? Well, I don't want to. And so it's doing like, literally feels like doing like ripping myself apart.

[A]

Can I ask you something? I want to sit in just what you said for a second. Do you really not want to ask for your needs or is it just scary?

[B]

I really want to, but I'm totally terrified.

[A]

So what I hear is I want to do something and it's scary. So by doing it makes me really strong.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

Because I'm both honoring something I really want to do and I'm moving beyond my discomfort in the process. Is that fair and is it almost courageous, if anything?

[B]

Yes. A little bit. Yes.

[A]

And so not always the easiest thing to do. But you will be rejected as soon as you express a need. Is that true?

[B]

It feels very true.

[A]

Feels true. And you've probably had a lot of times where that happened. Right. But the extremely unfair, unjust thing about traumatic experiences and traumatic relationships is that we take the trauma from somebody who gave it to us. It imprints our subconscious mind and now we project that trauma onto everybody and everything, and we hurt more than anybody else. So I got rejected a lot. Now everybody's gonna reject me. Now you see every human being through the lens of your ex husband, and now all of a sudden, you're moving in the world, literally in that way. Right? You're moving in the world going, oh, well, I got rejected here, so everybody will reject me, and you hurt the most over that.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

So let's look at people in your life who might actually accept you when you do share and when you are open. And I'm just curious, before even trying to get into specific specifics, is there anybody who comes to mind as somebody who, when you do share yourself, does actually try to be accepting?

[B]

Uh, yeah. I have a sister.

[A]

And do you have an example of how she's accepting of you?

[B]

Um, a specific example. So I have. I think I. Well, I have a core wound of I am bad. And so I get nervous to, like, share me with people or whoever. Actually, I get nervous to share me with people I'm close with. I don't really get nervous so much with people I'm not close with. And maybe it's that whole vulnerable thing

[A]

again, like, okay, you're right.

[B]

But I, like, I can't think of, like, a specific one, but it's like, she's shown me, no matter what, if I talk to her, it doesn't matter. Actually, I remember one, and it was talking about a choice, and she's like, lisa, I'm gonna. I'm gonna love you no matter what you choose. And it was like. But really, like, are you really in? And. And it was like, liesl, like, I don't care. I'm gonna love you. And so it was like, oh, just that feeling of, like, I don't have to carry this around, you know, like, because I. I. I have six sisters, and I love them, and I'm terrified that if I do something wrong, they won't love me anymore. And so. Which. They've never shown me anything like that. So whatever that one is, you can tell me that. Cor. No.

[A]

So let's look at that. Well, maybe on love, but let's look at that together. Do you see acceptance or love from those other sisters as well?

[B]

Yeah, mostly. And I don't know if what I don't see is because I'm seeing it through my own, like, fears.

[A]

Should we look?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So let's look for a second. So let's go through the different sisters. Is there a moment where you felt really loved by another one of your sisters. And what was their name?

[B]

Okay, we can go in order.

[A]

Okay, let's do it. That's perfect.

[B]

We might have to admit some of these.

[A]

Or we can skip out names, too. We don't even have to share names. We can just go through different sisters. If you want to say this one sister.

[B]

Okay. All right. So without a name, how do you want me to do that?

[A]

This one sister.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Whatever memory comes to mind. Yeah, yeah. Another sister and another sister. So the first sister who comes to mind, what's an experience of them really loving or accepting?

[B]

Okay, so. Well, the first one is the, is the one I was talking about. And she's actually just younger than me, and she is. Well, she's two and a half years younger. But I think from growing up and different things that happen, I just, I felt always like I need to protect her. Like, she's, she's my sister.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But. So she was actually the one I was talking about where she's like, I'm going to love you. Like, and, and then I think I needed reassurance. I needed reassurance. I was going to. And so a couple of times in that conversation, I prodded and she. Anyways, and it felt good.

[A]

And she said, of course I will.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And what does that feel like when you allow yourself to feel into that?

[B]

That seems like peace. Like, I, I, I, I. Yeah, I, I don't think it comes. I always feel like it. Can peace be a feeling in your body? I don't know. Peace.

[A]

Calmness usually feels like openness. Calm, for sure. Or a sense of just relief. Like you can breathe a little more deeply.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Safety, Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I would, I would say that. I have another sister, and she's an older sister, and it's a little bit more tricky with her because she's kind of like. I think she kind of. She reminds me a lot of my mom. And so a lot of times I feel like she's mothering me. And I'm very prideful. Okay. But I know that she's doing, like, that's how she shows love, you know, she's like. But we had a conversation a few months ago, and it was just talking to me, like, like, I can, I can see that she was just talking to me. And, and we were talking about some hard things in life and whatever, and I was getting a little bit prideful, like, you're, you're crossing some, some lines I don't like the feeling of, but, But I think it's Because. And I didn't have a close relationship with my mom. We kind of butted head, so I think it was a little bit of that, too.

[A]

But so without that prideful moment, which is obviously just protection. Right. But if you try for a second to. To remove that from the equation in the way that you see your sister in that moment, what do you see in your sister? Like, imagine her there talking to you, or even in a moment where she's trying to mother you. And without the prideful part, what do you see in her trend to love, Love and concern. Yeah. And maybe her not knowing how you want love and concern.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe because if I expressed it to her, she would be the one. Like, she is, I would say, more emotionally attuned than my, like, than maybe some other sisters. Emotionally healthy. Because we were, like I said, we were raised not to have emotion. And so if I expressed it to her, I think she would do well at showing up that way. Yeah.

[A]

And just notice that, like, feel into that a little bit that there is somebody who there is love and acceptance with. And maybe sometimes we put a wallop of pride because we feel like we need to protect. Or maybe we don't know how to communicate our needs in real time sometimes or how we want to be loved differently. But that there is your sister, and you can sort of imagine her there trying to reach you. Right. And it may be in her way, but she's there trying to. To reach out to you.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. I like that you said that, because then I opened up an oops. I keep hitting that. It keeps opening up a door. Or it opened up a door to another sister I have who I think. And if I was to say some, like, express, this is how I need it, which I don't. But if I was. And. But I see how she tries to connect with me and how she think, like, how she shows love, like, and what is that service she likes? She. She definitely actually. So financially, things have been rough, and. And she actually would not want me saying this, but she. They do well financially, and they're very financially, like, smart and just.

[A]

Yeah. Organized.

[B]

Yeah. And my daughter needed braces. My daughter is beautiful, like, and just so sweet and kind of like my twin. Love that. And. But her teeth were just a mess, like, so bad. She has this tiny little mouth, and she wouldn't smile because she was embarrassed to smile. And so my sister just came to me one day and said, hey, we'd love to pay for Vienna's braces, but don't say anything. So, yeah, that's how she shows love.

[A]

And what comes up for you in that moment?

[B]

The same feelings. I like these feelings.

[A]

It's hard. You're gonna be crying out. It's hard to carry a wound like that. You know, this idea that you're not loved and. And the moment that you. You have that you can't see the love that's there sometimes, like, it's outside of the. The filter of your mind. But that's a really loving thing. And I. I think it's loving that she's like, oh, don't. Don't say anything, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so. So what does that feel like in your body, that sense of relief again? A little bit.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, definitely relief. And. Yeah, that. Actually, that's interesting. I. As we talk about this and the more experiences that we're talking about, I can feel it. It's like my. My. My throat's not so tight. It's, you know, and just like that. Yeah. Calm and relief. And.

[A]

And sometimes when you see a couple, they start to come.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're like, wait, there's this one and there's this one.

[B]

Yeah. When we look for good, we see good. Yeah.

[A]

And is there any other one that comes to mind with any other sister or even one of your kids?

[B]

My kids, yeah. They kind of get the short end of the stick with me, I feel like, because it's

[A]

so rather than going into judgment of self. Okay, let's go into how they love you.

[B]

Good idea. Okay.

[A]

That's the topic. So I want to see. Is there a moment that stands out to you where you felt really loved by?

[B]

Yeah. So I actually, when you said that my kids. And it was like, do, do, do, do. So Vienna and is very, like, comes and lays on my bed and talks to me and. And mom comes. Comes scratch my back and talk to me, and just, you know, because it's Wants connection with me and. And it feels good for both of us, I think. You know, it's like, I. I love you and whatever.

[A]

And if you slow down for a moment, into that moment, what do you see? Like, you sort of look in her eyes or there she is, and she is really present with you or wanting to chat with you or making these bids for connection. And what do you feel from her in that moment towards you?

[B]

Love and wanted. Yeah. Closeness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Beautiful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And what else do you feel when you sit down and you chat? What are the things that you talk about with.

[B]

Oh. Oh, my gosh. She will talk about anything.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Sometimes I'm like, I'm your mom. You should not be talking. But it's. But I. I love it. It's. Yeah, but I just. It's exciting. It's fun, it's sad. It's like all the things, but it's close.

[A]

It's really human.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so tender, vulnerable. Like. Like, yeah.

[A]

There's a blessing from. From. To have as a child, right? Like, to have one of your kids being like that in a relationship. So authentic with you. It also honestly says so much about you as a mom because those are not always very easy experiences to come by. So if we look a little bit deeper, what else do you see about other kids who. Who clearly accept you and love you?

[B]

I have another daughter who is very. So tender and sweet. Like, she'll leave me little notes or, like, makes me little things and, like, leave them there. Make my bed, like, surprise me and make my bed, or, like, just, like, cute little. You know, and. Yeah, wants me around. Feels good to be wanted around, you know, like, sometimes with kids, they do not want you around, which is fine, and I'm sure healthy in their way. But.

[A]

But, like, I want you to know, notice for a moment that, like, you had to show that or model that in some way to them for them to know how to behave that way. And I noticed a moment ago when I said, oh, like, you know, that's not frequent for parents, and you sort of. I noticed you shift just briefly, and I know you shifted into judgment of self, and I want you to practice just stepping out of that judgment of self for a moment, because you've been through a lot. Like, there's been a lot that's happened in your marriage and everything you had to endure, and the fact that your kids are like that tells me very clearly that you had to have built enough trust with your children even through such difficult times and such hardship in your life, and all the things that you were probably carrying as a mother and all the fires you were probably trying to put out and all the things you were probably trying to do, and you still had to have had enough trust and love established and how you showed up for them anyways for them to be like that with you.

[B]

Maybe it's hard because I feel like maybe it's just them, and they're like, desperate reaches of getting love from me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But have you ever seen kids who don't feel safe enough or trusting enough to desperately reach for somebody?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

No. Because what's happening is for somebody to feel comfortable reaching, you have to have had enough love and connection over time. Otherwise, you know, what happens is you turn away. Yeah. You become a dismissive avoidant. In a lot of cases, you're like, oh, my reaches or bits for connection are just constantly not met. And so I turn away. And so for children to be in a place where they can make those bits for connection, you already are giving so much more to your kids than maybe some of what you might have had. Nobody's fault, not your own parents fault, just everybody doing the best that they can. But you're already giving more to your kids than some of the connection that you probably had available, even despite everything that was going on for you. Do you see that? A little bit. It's okay. You're allowed to say no, you're allowed

[B]

to say, well, it's that whole thing, like, logically. Yeah, I can see that.

[A]

Yeah. And what's the thing that comes up. No, I am what? I am bad.

[B]

I am bad. I am not enough. I'm a failure or something like that.

[A]

Okay, so we're going to come back into those in just a second. We're going to try to get into some of those too. So. So before we move on to exactly what that was, we'll. I just want to see one or two more moments of how you are loved and you are accepted by your kids.

[B]

Okay. So my oldest son's in jail right now. I'm not going to judge myself, but I told him and anyways, the relationship is strained, but he can call sometimes. And so we call and talk. And I had told them my birthday was in October and I turned 40 and I had told him, I really want you to write me a letter for my birthday. And he hates writing letters. And anyways, so not expecting him to. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my birthday, like, came and went. And then I think I talked to him maybe a day or two day or so later, I don't remember, and he said, oh, hey, happy birthday. And did you get my letter? Anyways, mailing takes a little while anyways. He's like, I don't know if you'd get it on time. So that was. That's why.

[A]

And what did you feel about when you took the letter out of the mail?

[B]

So excited.

[A]

And what about when you read through the letter?

[B]

We'll focus on that. He wrote me a letter. Okay. Because I think judgment just comes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I see instead, like, I, like, I would think I was looking for, like, depth and like, and what you're

[A]

available for or what you.

[B]

Yeah, and it was less that. But it was. I mean, but it was. He wrote me a letter and.

[A]

And he heard your need and he showed up and he gave that love to you in the way that it was important to you. Yeah. And he saw you right through whatever was available to him. And it probably isn't the easiest thing to be in jail and be in survival mode and worrying every day and stressing every day because it's a traumatic experience for people. And then to be like, let me write a really deep letter.

[B]

Yeah. Especially at 19. Probably not what's going through.

[A]

Let me just tore my heart in here. Probably loving you very well for the circumstances that are available.

[B]

Yeah. That's beautiful.

[A]

One of the most problematic things about having deep core wounds is that we tend to reenact these same core wounds in the relationship to ourselves on a daily basis, and we don't even realize it. In this part of the segment, you're going to see how Lee Sol, who has a big betrayal core wound, accidentally is keeping this wound alive by betraying herself on a regular basis, betraying her own feelings, betraying her own needs, and betraying her own boundaries. Now, this is true of all core wounds. You'll see, for example, that when people have a huge core wound of abandonment, they also self abandon more than anybody else. Or if somebody has a big core wound of feeling unworthy, they're constantly putting themselves down and not seeing their own worth. So in this part of the episode, we're going to explore a form of action reprogramming, which is to go in and audit all of the ways that we actually reenact these core wounds in the relationship to self. And then, after we've audited them, come up with actual behaviors to change, to transform. And doing this in a daily practice habit can really revolutionize our relationship to this core wound, allowing us to leave it in the past where it actually belongs. Is it fair to say that there are a lot of people that do love you in your life?

[B]

Yes, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm sure if we sat with it, you'd see more, and you'd see more, and you'd see more. And so we already have more than enough for rewiring. So. So just on that first piece, to summarize that first part, we worked for how you are loved. Okay. And the people who do love you in your life and the way that they show love, and we have them recorded down for you, get them recorded. So. And we'll actually make a recording so you can listen back for 21 days, you can actually do the rewiring and hear back and feel about those things. And then, of course, what ends up happening, which is so beautiful about rewiring, is that just like you experience now, when you start doing it and hearing about it and feeling about it and visualizing about it, so it sinks into your subconscious mind where the wound is. You start noticing it more on a daily basis because now the blinders are off and now you can see. And then it sort of has this snowball effect where you'll start to feel more loved and see more love. And it's a really big piece. And so what's really interesting, and this is very common and normal for fearful avoidance, is that. And you did a really good job of noticing this in real time. You were sort of alluding to it, is that sometimes when you have multiple core wounds, like quite a few core wounds, you start trying to do the work on one and the other one

[B]

tries to pop up.

[A]

And you saw it in the experience of going, okay, well, I feel loved. But then there was these little moments where your other core wound wanted to say, no, come this direction, but you weren't good enough, but you are bad. And so you can hear that. And so I'm curious, as a parent, what was that next big one that kept coming up there? Was it more not good enough bad? What was.

[B]

That's. That's hard. I don't know if I've ever. Thought a lot about that. I feel like I let my kids down, and their problems are my fault.

[A]

Okay. And if I let my kids down, then I am what.

[B]

I am. Bad keeps coming to my head, but I don't know if that's accurate.

[A]

Okay. And bad will feel kind of like a shaming of self, a kind of deep judgment of self. That's it. Okay.

[B]

That's the one. Okay, good.

[A]

And so I let my kids down, and I am bad. Okay? So I was a bad parent. I let them down. Can you 100% know that that's true?

[B]

I can 100% feel that that's true.

[A]

That's okay. And you're allowed to say that. You're allowed to say that. There's no, like, right or wrong answer. But I want to look. I want to look at how you were a good parent and where your innocence was as a parent. Like, you just being a human being, doing the absolute best that you could with everything that was going on at the time. And so I'd love to just hear, like, when you look back at everything you Went through. How are you trying your hardest? Do you have any specific examples?

[B]

Yeah, I can, like, one just, like, very clearly popped in my head, but it was a long time ago.

[A]

Start there.

[B]

Okay. When Luke was gone, one of the times he was gone, like, for days. And my kids were little, and I remember Vienna saying something, where's dad? Or something, and just feeling like I need them to feel safe and that he loves them, like, and so trying to protector and came up with something. I don't remember what it was, but that. That's busy or whatever. I don't know. And at the same time feeling like I have no idea where dad is and what's going on, but just trying to keep them safe and so notice

[A]

you in all of your uncertainty in that moment and all the burden that you're carrying and all of the fear and. And worry or anxiety and stress and, like, where. Where is he? What's going on? What's gonna happen? Is he okay? And look at you carrying that. And then you being able to step aside in that moment and be with her and care for her feelings and try really hard to do something, anything, to just make her feel safe and to give something to her that you really didn't have in that moment. Is it fair to say in that moment that you were doing a good job? And I think that we do this thing as people, and it's so interesting how common this is. We do this thing where we think that being a good enough parent means being perfect.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

And that's not reality. It's not life, and it's not how it goes. And so I want you to keep looking for things for a moment here of how else you showed up. And it's okay to have imperfect moments, but, like, the feeling fact that you were able to carry on as you did with all the things that were going on in your life, like, I actually think is truly amazing. So let's look at another one. What's another time that you showed up doing a good job?

[B]

Well, I don't. I. When you were just talking, I definitely feel like it was the way. The only way I got through it was. I feel like God helped me. I don't feel like I could have done that by myself. Like, oh, I couldn't have.

[A]

Then how about this? You chose to turn to God for support.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

When some other people might not have.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And you chose to lean on something healthy when a lot of times people break under that kind of pressure. And a relationship to God isn't always easy because you can't see God. You know, and we get lots of signs or there can be really beautiful things that happen to us indirectly. But it's. It's much easier in a short term gratification way to turn to alcohol or other drugs or whatever it might be. There's gambling or just binging television and just tuning out. And there's so many things that we can turn to. And you chose to turn to God for strength and did that shape your kids in any way that was supportive or helpful?

[B]

Yes, definitely.

[A]

Any examples?

[B]

I think it's a little tricky with God and seeing how that shapes kids because it's little by little.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And day after day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I would say that all of them and myself would definitely not be doing at least as well as we are without having done that. Trying to rely on. On God and move like in a way that wasn't comfortable. Right. Or easy. Maybe an easy where it might be a better word because it gets difficult to keep going there where it's not tangible and.

[A]

Yeah. In really, really hard moments.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And who taught all of your kids to build a relationship or connection to God?

[B]

Myself and their dad supported that and tried also.

[A]

I'm gonna guess God bless your. Your. Your ex husband. But I'm gonna guess that you probably were more of that undercurrent because he wasn't quite available and consistent enough at times.

[B]

I just don't want to give yourself credit or say that he didn't because he does. I mean. You know what I mean? Like.

[A]

Or he probably did the best he could with what was available and in his capacity as a person. Yeah. Yeah. But in fairness, if we're just looking at the truth, is it fair to say that you probably had a. Yeah. And how did that shape or support your kids? That it teach them morals or trust or to show up in a hard time and maybe not, you know, constantly fall to just the material world to cope to know that there was something else.

[B]

I'm like fighting my head. Okay.

[A]

And that can be true too. Whatever's coming up in your mind can also be true. There can be things that maybe they did turn at times and that's hard. But if they haven't completely lost a relationship to God that might have supported them in various ways or things could be worse off.

[B]

Is that I can accept that.

[A]

Yeah. And we're not trying to say only this.

[B]

My children are perfect black and white. I think I do feel like. And maybe I don't. But I think I. Because I'm also Pretty literal. Or get stuck on words, like if someone's explaining something to me or I hear a word and it's like, anyways, that was a tangent.

[A]

And the goal that we're trying to move towards is sort of like it's cognitive behavioral therapy, but we're trying to get it to reach the subconscious mind by sinking into the examples a little bit more. And cognitive behavioral therapy on principle says we want to return to fair and balanced thinking. So the idea is to see that, you know, a relationship to God probably definitely supported and helped my children, and I probably taught them that largely. And I'm not sure if there's really a bigger gift you give to kids than to learn at a young age that they can have a relationship to God, even if that's imperfect and they lose sight of it sometimes. But to have that foundation, to know that that's something you can come back to. And so we can see. That. We can see. And my children are also human beings, and they make mistakes, too. Right. So it's the fair and balanced thinking. But what's hard and what becomes our own personal version of hell is when we're not fair and balanced thinking. We're just on this side, and we just. We see our mistakes only without the beauty, or we see all the times that we were bad without seeing our own innocence or how hard we tried. And that's when we also personally divorce from God in each moment that we do that, because you pluck yourself up and you just drop yourself right into hell. Because now here I am, and I only see all my mistakes, and I only see myself through this lens. And you dehumanize yourself and you take yourself completely out of this beautiful mother who at one point would have been in complete survival mode, doing the absolute best that she could. And you don't even give yourself the grace that probably God would want you to give yourself to see that. And so now I separate from God. I separate from how God would see me. I separate from how God would want me to see myself. And I just put myself into hell in my thinking. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I don't do grace well for myself.

[A]

So if you go back in there for a second, is there anywhere else that you can see or give yourself a little bit of grace in terms of how you showed up as a mother and how you were doing the best that you could and other things that you shared or gave to your kids as principles or areas of growth that were you doing a good job?

[B]

Yeah. Shaden, my oldest, when he was in, like, Kindergarten, I think, actually, you know, they have, like, play time or whatever. And he had come home with, like, this little plastic dinosaur and was saying something, and I had this feeling like, is that really how you got that toy? Like, whatever. I don't. Whatever. He had said whatever story he had come up with, and. And anyways, through it, he. It came out. No, I took it. And whatever says that, okay, well, do we take things that aren't ours? And so he said, no. I said, cable, but tomorrow we're gonna go back to school and you're gonna give it to your teacher and say, I'm sorry. And. And of course. And that, in its own thing, is a huge thing, right? Because they. He doesn't want to go back. And anyways, and so there you are.

[A]

And you're able to have enough trust with him. I think you really underestimate how much trust you've built with your children. You have enough trust with him where he's able to tell you the truth. Right. Probably when he feels a little bit of shame himself because he made a mistake. Right. And hold him accountable and go in and actually support him in going and bringing it back and having the conversation. So you're showing him communication, you're showing him ownership and accountability. And it sounds like you really supported him through that. Instead of yelling or getting so mad at him for it, it sounds like you really loved him in a really unconditional way. Is that fair?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And is it fair to say that you love all of your children unconditionally?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So there's a lot of good and innocence, and. And if there are, in an overarching, broad stroke theme times as a mother, that you made mistakes, can you see, looking out, this can be a hard question for you, but I'm going to ask you to try. Okay. Looking back on your life in that phase of life, okay, where you're going through everything you were with your husband at the time, if you did ever make a mistake, big or small,

[B]

what

[A]

was innocent about your relationship to making a mistake? Where was your innocence?

[B]

I was just trying my best to love my kids while going through what incredibly hard things.

[A]

And if you looked from the outside at somebody else's life or somebody else's story, and there they were going through everything that you were going through, and you saw them make a mistake, how would you feel about that person?

[B]

I'd probably just go hug them.

[A]

Yeah. And so there's all these moments, right, that like, you judge yourself. And what a disservice for somebody who went through everything that they did. And what a disservice to somebody who was probably trying so incredibly hard with just, like, the weight of the world on their shoulders. Is that fair?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so there's this really beautiful process. And when we make mistakes, sometimes we are so quick to go into judgment. And that can be easy when we have had.

[B]

I had all these.

[A]

But it's much more powerful, and it helps grow us a lot more if instead of going into judgment, whenever we go into judgment of self, we've lost the plot.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right. So I'll try to remember. Instead of judgment, we want to go into curiosity. Okay. And it's your reframe. And if you want to pick a time that you made a mistake that comes to mind, I want to take you through this process for a moment, because it's gonna be something I'm gonna ask you to practice on a very regular basis. So is there a recent time that you made a mistake?

[B]

Let me think.

[A]

Oh, and it can be big or small. You relate to something. Whatever it is, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be something huge. Just anything that comes to mind.

[B]

Okay. Yes.

[A]

Okay. And what was it? If you feel comfortable sharing.

[B]

Yeah. I lost my temper with my son.

[A]

Perfect. Okay. And so where were you at the time? Where were you standing or sitting in

[B]

the car with him?

[A]

Okay. Beautiful. And so there you are. And of course, your ego mind wants

[B]

to judge,

[A]

and instead of. You just step out of that and get curious about what the root cause was. What was the root cause for you in that moment? What caught. What was causing you to feel so stressed or hurt or afraid that you lost your temper?

[B]

I felt like in the conversation, I was unappreciated and unheard.

[A]

Okay, good. And so in order to get. To get appreciation or to be heard, you get louder, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in that moment, as somebody who has felt those feelings of being unappreciated or unheard and, like, what that actually feels like when you go through and you look at times that you experienced that in the past, like, being unappreciated, being unheard, probably during really hard moments. I'm sure there were moments of your marriage that you felt like that that were, like, traumatic constantly. Can you see how it might be possible to just have a little bit of compassion for yourself for. Oh, my gosh, these wounds are being touched. Look at all the times I felt this way in my marriage. Look at all of the times I had to endure being unappreciated and unheard. When my Husband goes missing for five days or seven days, and here I am trying to hold everything down and protect the kids and not let them think badly of him and make sure that they feel safe, even though I don't. And probably the lack of appreciation that comes from hard moments like that. And so those things get triggered up in the moment that you're in the car, and there's been a lot there. And can you have a little bit of compassion for yourself for just feeling that way? We don't have to justify that you lost your temper, but just a little bit of compassion, like, ouch, no wonder I felt hurt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when you have a little bit of compassion for yourself and you step out of judgment, what becomes available to you? What do you see as something you could have done in that moment when you felt unappreciated, unheard, instead of losing your temper? Okay.

[B]

Something keeps coming into mind when we're talking, so ask me that question again. But so how come, like, I'll think, why is it so hard to, like, have empathy? You keep telling me things like. Like in my. In, like, my marriage. Right. So I want to, like, it's like, wait, but that's not fair. This is my mind. That's not fair. Or. Or that makes you. Like, that. That's making me a victim or something. And. And that's not right. Like, I don't know. Is this making sense?

[A]

I think so. You're saying when. When. When I look at my own feelings of unsafety, or if I say, okay, I was feeling unsafe when my husband was gone for seven days, you feel like you're being painted as the victim and you don't want that.

[B]

Something about it is making me uncomfortable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know if it's that exactly, because if I think about it from somebody else's point of view, I don't feel that way. And I feel like I can. I just have, like, compassion for them and caring. But then when it's like, when you're saying it to me, I feel like this is making it so something about, oh, poor me or something, or victim or something. And then it's uncomfortable.

[A]

There's three things happening.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The first one is that. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense that you didn't really have a lot of consistent empathy and attunement to your feelings growing up, as a starting point.

[B]

Okay. Yes.

[A]

And so if I don't get that as a child, then. Then I don't know how to give that to myself. As an adult, because we learn so much through mirroring and modeling. And so it may be a little bit on the periphery of your awareness.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The second thing is then sometimes when we have to endure hard things and be in survival mode for a long time, where, like, I have to repress any feelings about myself and kind of divorce from my sense of self, my relationship to myself, and seeing myself at all just to stay. Okay. Because I'm too busy in the hamster wheel, there's no time to see my feelings. And there'll probably be a lot of core wounds in there, right, that, oh, maybe I'm weak, right, If I. If I see my feelings or I'm the victim or I feel my feelings. But the reality, and this is the third thing, is that there's a massive difference between being a victim and honoring your experience. And. And when you can't honor your experience, your victimhood comes out in other ways instead. Okay, so I'll give you an example. I spoke with somebody once, and they said, can't be the victim. Can't be the victim. Don't want to be the victim. And really, like, led with that. But they weren't able to validate and see their own experiences and see themselves, and just, like, honor that, they went through a hard time and get to the roots of it and work through it. And because they couldn't go in and see themselves and then work through their stuff because they couldn't. They weren't allowing themselves to connect to it, then they were carrying that, and then their victimhood would pop up and, like, nobody sees me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Right. Or, oh, like, nobody cares about me. And they would say, but I'm not the victim. But I'm not the victim, but nobody cares about me. And I'm actually curious if you even have. If you have moments like that where you maybe tell yourself the sad story that nobody's there or that I can't trust people to be there for me or I'm unloved or I'm unaccepted or, you know, and those. Those come from at a root, you know, you telling those stories. But kind of beneath that, in a sense, is that until you see yourself and honor your pain and then are willing to, in that honoring, look for the other side and look at what's outside of that and work through it, then, even though it feels like, oh, I'm not being the victim by just not seeing myself, it usually causes you to be the victim in hidden forms. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah, it does.

[A]

Yeah. So I think There's a huge part of you. And to be honest, I also think that. And I mean, this is a long conversation or a long rabbit hole to go into, but I wouldn't be surprised if you stayed in your marriage so long when it was so painful because you just weren't able to see yourself properly, and you weren't able to see how this was affecting you and honor that. And I'm curious if that shows up for you as a pattern a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, I could see that.

[A]

Yeah. And. And so a big part of your healing, just so you know, will be to practice. To be. To practicing yourself. And you know how we talked at the very early part of our discussion about. About you. There's so many pieces in here which are really interesting, but about you losing yourself when you go into a relationship. Well, the root of that is that I stop seeing myself because now I'm in a relationship, so I'm back to seeing everybody else. And I can't actually take myself into consideration. I can't find my boundaries. I can't find my needs. I can't find how to express them in the soup of, like, somebody else's life. And so part of your healing, not just from the past, but as a person, will also be the exercise and practice of seeing yourself. The more you see yourself, the more I can be like, oh, I feel this way in this situation, and then I can speak about it, and then I can set a boundary about it, and then there's no problem that has to evolve. And then I don't feel this big need to push somebody away because I'm seeing myself. So it really stems from that piece. And if you had to score yourself from 1 to 10 in your life, the history of your life, of how good of a job you do at consistently seeing your own feelings, seeing your own needs, seeing your own boundaries, what score would you give yourself?

[B]

Are there negatives?

[A]

And it will always make everything really hard when it comes to relationships. Right? And so you already didn't get enough of that growing up. Then you go into a relationship where it's like forcing you to further section off from seeing yourself. And it'll make every relationship feel like you're gonna get lost in it. Like, okay, I'm gonna lose myself in this relationship. And hence some of that push pull that starts to emerge. Okay, so. So going back just for a moment to this judgment piece, okay, so you go to judge yourself because this is your conditioning. You're not seeing you as a human being when you judge yourself right?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we go back and it's called ica. So. So first thing is, I'm going to inquire, I'm going to get really curious about the root cause of why I lost my temper. And so you said, well, I felt unheard and unappreciated. Okay? And then we're like, can we have compassion for that? And we looked at the roots and you see that, okay, maybe there are lots of times I felt that way in my marriage, and maybe I'm going to practice seeing that a little bit, noticing that that might have been there, and that's okay. And victimhood isn't acknowledging your feelings. Victimhood. What victimhood becomes is when I acknowledge my feelings, blame everybody for it, tell everybody all the time that it's all their fault, keep replaying that story in my mind, and then that's where I shrink, right? And that's where I become the victim. But saying, yeah, I went through that and that was hard. And our third piece of ICA is accountability. Then we can still look at it, understand ourselves better, and then work through it. So noticing just for a second here, that when you lose your temper, when you just go into judgment and blaming, if I lost my temper, I'm not good enough. I'm this. It's actually you victimizing yourself a little bit.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

I'm all these bad things. Me, me, me, Right? And instead if you're like, oh, what is the root of this? And I get curious. Well, now in my curiosity, I can see, oh, I have some wounds here that need to be worked on. I feel unappreciated and not acknowledged. And now I can communicate that I need to be acknowledged or heard, I think was the word. I can communicate that I need to be heard. I can express my needs so that I can get heard. I can ask, whoops. I can ask for acknowledgement or appreciation in my life more often. I can practice appreciating and acknowledging myself by working on the roots there. Guess what happens? I lose my temper. Less so. The only way to actually course correct for mistakes isn't through judgment. We think it is right, because we all grew up in a system of, like, classical conditioning where you get punished for doing things wrong, right? But, like, nobody actually gets better from punishing themselves. They get. They get better from either taking accountability after they've punished themselves, which sometimes happens, but we can do it in a much more productive way by being like, well, what was the root cause of why I lost my temper? Oh, I have this wound of feeling not heard or not acknowledged or appreciated. Oh, good. Let me work on that. And now I've course corrected at the root for losing my temperature. And then I don't have to keep losing my temper when the wound is there. Does that make sense?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Okay, so it's going to be a really big piece. Okay, so. So as we go through and you look at some of these themes, are you able to notice that you are a little bit loved and accepted?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that when I get into this dynamic of telling myself this story that I'm not loved and not accepted, what happens in your life?

[B]

I shut down and withdraw more, I think.

[A]

And then you feel like, oh, look, there's no one here to love me or accept me.

[B]

Yes. As I isolate my own problem.

[A]

And there is another part of you that. That was so quick to judge that I wasn't good enough or I was a bad parent.

[B]

And are you able to say, constant on play in my head.

[A]

Yeah, a big one. And so what we did is kept track of all of those so that you can take those home and you can actually start rewiring them. Okay. And a third really important thing that I want you to practice is not just the rewiring of, like, where I'm actually a good parent and where my innocence is, but also where I am. What was the original one that we. We worked on? The. Where I'm loved and accepted instead of rejected, but that ICA piece, that piece of like, rather than going to judgment again and not seeing myself, I'm gonna go into actually sitting here and being like, what was the root of the error? And then how can I work through that? Okay, so what was the root? And how can I go be accountable or heal whatever that root was? Does that all make sense so far?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I know I'm giving you a lot of information, but we covered a lot.

[B]

And you've got.

[A]

You've got a good. You've got these wounds that are like getting in there with each other, but the last thing. And I know we didn't have enough time to go through this one as well, but the betrayal. So just like we sat in this today and we looked at where the. The betrayal or where you were accepted instead of rejected. I want you to practice looking for loyalty in your life. Where there is loyalty, where people have shown up for you, come through for you. What about you makes you worthy of loyalty? Different ways that people in hard moments, even though they may be imperfect, they also are showing up to express loyalty maybe in the only way that they know how and also recognizing that the way we keep our loyalty wounds alive is we keep. Yeah, we keep leaving ourselves. And so I want you to. This is one of the most important takeaways, is that you can't be loyal to somebody you can't see. Right.

[B]

Explain that.

[A]

Well, let's say I have a relationship to somebody and I never really take the time to notice them or anything about them or see them or get to know them.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

And then they can be loyal to anything about them because I can't even see. So how could I ever consider them properly? And for you, because you've deeply been divorced from seeing yourself, you can't honor somebody you don't see. You can't be loyal to somebody you don't see. You can't stand up for somebody you don't see. You can't protect or have boundaries for somebody you don't see or understand what's going on in them. And so, like a huge root of working through the core wound, you know, you can. I'll give you a worksheet for auto suggestion around loyalty. But, like, at the same time, you love to practice on a daily basis checking in with yourself and going, did I betray myself anywhere? And what am I gonna do instead? Oh, I'm gonna speak that need. Okay, I'm gonna share that boundary.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

Or I'm gonna actually honor myself and see myself instead of just going right into that place of beating myself up or judging myself. Cause you truly betray yourself the moment that you even like, looking at you as a hardworking mother of seven, trying to hold the fort down. Like, you really betray yourself when you're like, oh, bad. Everything you went through, bad. Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, it's such a profound form. And you would feel so betrayed if somebody treated you like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or judged you like that. And so you really do that to yourself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that's actually gonna be a big part of healing the wound. Along with the auto suggestion work that I'll give you to take home.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

So Liesl's huge key takeaways for today that she's gonna go home with and be able to actually practice working through are all of the evidence we gathered for how she is really loved and she is accepted, along with the different ways that she is innocent and good enough as a mother, which are so big. Those are gonna be great things to actually take home and listen back to and feel about across 21 days. So we're actually firing and wiring those new perceptions. And as you can see, when Somebody actually takes those blinders off initially, more and more examples start coming into their awareness. And so the practice of doing that and actually rewiring that on a daily basis will allow somebody to live in a way where they start to notice that they're more loved and more accepted and where they are good enough and where they are innocent in the way that they're moving in the world instead of constantly feeding those old stories and narratives that are actually a really big form of self betrayal. So Lisa will get to take home some rewiring on those core wounds along with a rewiring, um, auto suggestion tool for working through the core wound of betrayal. And then the practice of seeing herself will be huge to actually honor her and her experience that way at the root. Now, if you're seeing some of these tools today and you want to learn to practice them at home, you can actually check out for free for a very limited time. Our course called 21 Tools to Reprogram your subconscious mind, where you're actually going to be able to explore the different tools that exist to understand your own subconscious patterns, but most importantly, rewire them and you'll be able to pick a very actionable, regular tool that you can stick to so you can really see the needle move and the transformation happen. You've done an amazing job. Thank you so much. I feel like we could talk so

[B]

many more times and there's.

[A]

But you've done such a beautiful job. And thank you for your vulnerability, for just your sharing and for everything you did share and speak about today. And I think you should be really proud of yourself as a mother and as a person and.