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- [00:01]
A
Welcome back to another episode of our podcast. I feel like we're in for a treat today because Mike is about to dive into a really personal share of being a dismissive avoidant in intense infatuation, feeling that kind of obsessive infatuation called limerence that we often talk about on this channel. And we're going to talk about, most specifically, six key signs that dismissive avoidance may be secretly obsessed with you and you just don't know it. And these really important signs to look out for. But we're going to kick it off with Mike sharing a story. Because, you know, when we first started talking today about this topic, I remember thinking, most people are going to hear this and be like, dismissive avoidance. Don't obsess over people. And that is not the truth. So we're going to dive into it. Mike, I'm going to start off by just asking you to share a personal story about that. And then we're going to get into the six key signs. And at the end, we are also going to talk about the biggest unmet needs that cause dismissive avoidance to fall into limerence as well. And as a bonus, you'll learn which attachment style and which gender are often end up obsessing and having really intense infatuations with celebrity crushes the most too. Her name is Thais Gibson.
- [01:09]
B
Thais Gibson. Thais Gibson.
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A
Thais Gibson.
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B
Thais Gibson.
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A
Thais Gibson.
- [01:14]
B
I hope I pronounce her name properly. Thaise Gibson.
- [01:18]
A
I am so excited for you to be here with me today. Thank you for joining us. Welcome back to another episode of our podcast. I feel like I just have a treat here for our audience today. I'm so excited to share this with you guys. So today's episode is going to be signs that a dismissive avoidant is secretly obsessed with you. And Mike so generously is willing to share his life. So in other words, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you know that Mike is a recovered, dismissal avoidant attachment style. I am a recovered, fearful avoidant attachment style. So we have a lot of, like, goods to just share in terms of what the inside world of each of the attachment styles really look like from one side of the picture to what it looks like to be on the other side of the picture. And so we often share like about our own internal experiences having been DA or fa. And before we started this podcast today, I was thinking Mike made the suggestion, hey, let's do signs that a dismissive avoidant is obsessed with you. And I Was thinking, I bet most people listening to this are gonna be like, yeah, but dismissive avoidants don't really get obsessed with people. And to be honest, even working with so many dismissive avoidants in my private practice, I wouldn't spend a lot of time on those things with avoidance themselves. A lot of times it'd be on healing and how to move through things, not like crushes or limerence or people that they were obsessed with. So I asked Mike, has that ever happened to you before? And he said, yes. So I think we want to start m. If you feel comfortable just sharing a little bit about a time that that did happen to you, and what sort of your relationship was that? Were you secretive? Would you try to reach out to the person? Did you kind of keep it to yourself just so people can get an inside scoop of, like, what a dismissive avoidance inner world is, like, when that actually happens? And then we can really dive into some of the actual signs that you may see at a high level, and we can talk a little bit about the needs that are often met that can cause a dismissive voidant to become, you know, in a state of limerence or in intense infatuation with somebody.
- [03:20]
B
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I. I remember it was someone that I'd met while I was on a vacation, and they were working at a. At a restaurant, and it was a restaurant that was near the place I was staying, so I was going in there kind of regularly to get food and whatnot. And everything about her was, like, so opposite of. Of me, of who I. Of who I am as a person and what I sort of look for in a partner. Like, if you were to put us, like, side by side, people would be like, what the heck? And the reason I say that is because she was super. Like, I'm a little more, like. I don't want to say plain. That makes myself sound, like, boring. But, like, I don't have any tattoos. Like, I dress kind of conservatively, I guess I got some loud shirts now, but that's because I live in Mexico. But this girl was very, like. I guess you call it, like, alternative. Like, almost like, goth. Like, had, like, funky hair, tattoos, and, like, just all sorts of, like, a really, really interesting and unique look that. That I wasn't used to, like, sort of interacting with people like that in my everyday life. And I remember, like, I instantly. I was kind of like, whoa. Like, I was just really, like, really taken aback and then couple that with. She was just really, really nice. Like, super nice and easy to Talk to. And we just had a really good, like, rapport together.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah. So, yeah, I just remember going in there many times and I was in town for a month so, you know, got to see her a fair amount of times. But then once the, you know, vacation was over and I was to fly back to my hometown, I just couldn't get this girl out of my head. Like, I just was like, thinking about her all the time. And I had her social media and like, I was following her posts. Like, anytime she posted. Like, I was liking that for sure. Like, anything she was posting, I was liking. She could have put like, I hate people named Mike.
- [05:28]
A
And I'd be like, I just, I.
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B
Just wanted her to, like, notice that I was like, liking her posts and.
- [05:36]
A
Like, you know, they are like on the periphery kind of thing.
- [05:40]
B
Yeah, I felt like we were like, it kept us sort of attached and like, you know, there was this, this hope that, that she would, she would really like me and like, message me and say, like, oh, I want you to come back. Or like, oh, I. I think about you a lot, etc. Etc. So there's a lot of, like, fantasizing and like a lot of just, you know, instead of just sharing sort of.
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A
Feelings about how just like speaking openly or vulnerably.
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B
Yeah. I sort of put her on this, like, pedestal or like, that were so different that, like, we, we could never be together as a couple. But she was like this person who was like, so cool. So, like, didn't care what society thought about her. Like, yeah, just march to her own beat of her own drum. Like, there's just so many things that I was in limerence over. I was like that, wow. Like, I would love to be that. Not caring. I would love to be that, like, where just get all these tattoos and say, forget about society and do whatever I want. So I think it was just a lot of, like, the way she was and the way she lived her life was subconsciously I wished I could be more. More like that.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah. And I just wanted, like, to be around that and I wanted her to, like, maybe accept me and be like, hey, like, no, you're, you're cool too. Like, you're, you're, you're, you're edgy and you're, you got, you know, a lot of good things inside of you. So, yeah, it was just, yeah. Like, for months and months and months, just like, hoping she would again reach out and be like, oh, you should come back, like, Please come visit, etc. Etc.
- [07:19]
A
And did you Ever end up saying anything to her, like expressing that you were interested or, like, showing interest in the end or it was all, like, internalized for you?
- [07:28]
B
Yeah, I think I did at one point. I think I, like, threw out a little feeler because again, at the time was, like, way more D A And, you know, didn't want to, like, expose myself or be vulnerable to being rejected. So I was hoping she would say something. And I think I. I threw out, like, a little. A little feeler, and I didn't really get the response I'd hoped for.
- [07:55]
A
And do you feel like it was an actual obvious feeler or do you feel like it was something that, like. Because a lot of times it's. Ms. Avoids think they're being obvious, but, like, they're. They're just being like. Seems like they're being friendly or nice and. And they're not as obvious as they think.
- [08:08]
B
Yeah, I think it was something along the lines of, like, you know, I should come. I should come back and visit or something like that. And like, she was like, yeah, like, it wasn't really, like, like, definitely, yeah, come visit.
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A
We'll.
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B
We'll hang out.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
Because even when I was there too, like I said, I think I asked her to do something outside of the restaurant, like, hey, like, let me take you take it for lunch one day or let's go for a walk or whatever. And then she kind of wasn't really picking up on that or not really, like, receptive to it.
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A
Okay.
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B
So then I thought, okay, like, I definitely think she thinks I'm cool and nice and a nice person to talk to, but more so from a, like, customer.
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A
Yeah, yeah, like somebody nice to talk to when you come in.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Like you're trying to, like, get to know more.
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B
Yeah. You know when you go to your Starbucks and you have a good rapport with the Starbucks.
- [09:02]
A
Yeah, totally.
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B
But then maybe if you saw each other outside of the street, you might.
- [09:06]
A
Be like, oh, yeah, this is weird.
- [09:11]
B
Um, so, yeah, I don't know. You could ask me any other questions, but those are just the things that pop in my head where I was just constantly thinking about this person and look. Staring at their photos and, like, screenshotting their real so I could see the picture for longer. That probably sounds really creepy or weird, but.
- [09:31]
A
No, that's like limerence.
- [09:32]
B
It's. Yeah, that's such, like. I don't know if you get, like, dopamine hits from it or whatever, but I was just like.
- [09:38]
A
Well, just like the euphoria of that, like, that. That connection in your mind, like, you have that, like, oh, wow. And okay, so I want to do this with our. For our listeners. So for anybody who's not familiar, limerence is usually caused by, like, three major things, but two very early on that are the strongest. So when somebody meets your deeply unmet needs, or you're really talking about this one, when somebody expresses your deeply repressed traits. And that's because the subconscious mind wants wholeness or homeostasis in a sense. So it, like, wants to connect and attach to things it sees as separate from self so that it can be closer to them. Because it's like, okay, once we attach to somebody, now that thing becomes a part of us too. So I would love to first. And I know we said we're going to get into, like, signs of dismissive avoidant is infatuated with you, and we'll unpack those and how some of those signs showed up and maybe use that as a reference or example, like, things you would do or not do and how it pertains to all dismissive avoidance. But before we do that, I just want people to be able to see this, like, follow along with it. So I'm curious what your first interaction was with her. So your very first interaction, did you feel like you kind of had this intense attraction right away?
- [10:44]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [10:45]
A
Yeah. Okay, so in that first interaction, what do you think it was? Because I always tell this story when it comes to limerence, where I had this client, and she was like, oh, I met this guy at a coffee shop. It's funny. Hers was also at a coffee shop. And she came into the session that week and she was like, oh, my gosh, I met this person. Person. And. And what had happened? Essentially, she felt really unseen as a child, and. And she'd spilled this coffee in line at the coffee shop, and it went everywhere. And she kind of had, like, an avoidant mother. And then her dad was just. Wasn't around much. He always worked. And then she was actually engaged and she was coming to do, like, premarital counseling. And we had done, like, one session together to get to know her and start. And she came in the next session and she was like, I met my soulmate and it's not my. My fiance. And I was like, what? Like, what do you mean? And it turned out she had met this guy at a coffee shop. She didn't even get his phone number. She just said she couldn't stop thinking about him. And what we learned to unpack is that in that interaction, when she spilled everything and she was rushing and she felt all chaotic. He sat with her and he helped wipe up the coffee and sat with her. Hey, you look a little stressed. You want to sit down for a minute? And just made her feel really seen. And it was something that her fiance wasn't really giving to her and something that she never had a source of in her childhood. And like, children deeply need that. And so the remedy to it was like, okay, this guy was meeting her deeply unmet needs. It caused tremendous limerence. And then rather than just like leaving for this random stranger she met, she learned to, like, incorporate that into her relationship. Ask her fiance to be more present, have more meaningful conversations. You know, she had to share more vulnerably and more emotionally so she could feel more connected. And sure enough, her limerence went away and she actually felt way more connected in her relationship. So a lot of times it's like these signs. And so I'm curious, like, it doesn't sound like yours was as much unmet needs, because what needs is she meeting in that first interaction? Probably not too many from the sound of it, but maybe a little bit there over time. But it sounds like it was more on the repressed trait side. And you kind of said it in passing. But what do you think some of the things that she represented to you that you felt like, oh, my gosh, my subconscious mind was hungering to attach to.
- [12:51]
B
Yeah, just don't care what anybody thinks about me because I, I. Most of my life I've been like, super, super self conscious and, like, worried about how I'm being perceived or, you know, if I'm looking weird or, like, different. Like, didn't want to stand out. And she was the complete opposite of that. Like, she stands out like a sore thumb. Like, if she's walking down the street, you'd probably look twice at her because she has, like I said, a lot of tattoos, piercings, cool air, all that kind of stuff. Right. Just has this really unique cool look. So, yeah, another trait might be, like, when I was young, I didn't feel like I was special or like, anything to be sort of noticed or looked at. And she, here is this girl who's like, she's sort of commanding attention. Like, not in a way that she's asking for it, but just by nature of her being, her authentic expression of herself. She. She's just very, like, noticeable and interesting.
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A
Like, even maybe in her, like, maybe she takes up a lot of space while, like, her mannerisms or her body language too. And then obviously like, her look, it sounds like.
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B
Yeah, actually, she's a little bit, like, mild mannered. Like, not really, like, loud and, like, boisterous. But just like I said, it was her look. And I think that that was probably. Like I mentioned before, I was trying to, like, not dress or use accessories, like, draw attention to me. I was very much just trying to blend into the background. So when I saw somebody who was also a little bit kind of shy, but also bypassing the worry about other people judging her or thinking she was weird, I think probably I thought that was, like, the coolest thing ever. And I wish I could have been more like that at the time.
- [14:40]
A
Okay, so that was, like, the big thing. And was there anything else that put out or. It was mostly that. I mean, that's a big enough thing to definitely have limerence around.
- [14:47]
B
Yeah, she thought it was funny. So I like, if somebody laughs at my jokes, I'm like, you feel connected. Yeah, for sure. And what else? What else? Just I remember being, like, complimentary as well, too. She would say, like, you know, oh, you're really nice to talk to or easy to talk to. She would say sort of nice things. And again, like, I wasn't used to being sort of pointed out what was, like, good about me. It was more so focused on, like, if you made mistakes or what you're not doing right, you know, bless my parents. They're amazing. But that was just more of the vibe. It was like, we're gonna. We're gonna keep you safe and keep you on track as a human by pointing out mistakes in places you're, you know, maybe not doing well or could do better, which. Okay, that's one way of doing it. But then that also, as you grow into adulthood, that voice in your head, instead of pumping you up and telling you, oh, you're amazing. You're doing great, awesome. The voice in your head can be that same voice of your parents saying, like, oh, you should have done this, or, why can't you do that better? I can't believe you made that mistake. So, going back to the scenario. Yeah. When. When you meet somebody who's complimenting of you and, you know, said something nice about your appearance or whatever, you're kind of just like, oh, hey, this is. I want to be around this a little more.
- [16:14]
A
Yeah, okay. So that's like an unmet need thing. So you kind of had a little bit of both. Like, she, like, over time, met these deeply unmet needs. You felt kind of seen or noticed by her in a way, or complimented and Then the repressed traits of, like, she was somebody who, like, took up space. Space and commanded presence and just didn't seem to care what people think. And so you have those parts of you that are repressed. So that is super interesting. That's like. It makes a lot of sense. And then. Okay, so let's go into. And just for anybody listening, too, if you've ever been in limerence, I always think that limerence is kind of like a key that if you're willing to, like, unlock it, it kind of unlocks this, like, treasure chest of really exciting information about yourself because you can kind of go in and be like, wait, why am I in limerence? Why do I keep thinking so much about somebody and, like, feeling about them and reminiscing about them and all these things? And usually it's because literally, they either represent deeply unmet needs that you have that they met or seem to meet even a little bit, or these traits that you've repressed that then the work is to actually integrate those traits. So obviously, fast forward back to whenever that was. I would have been like, oh, okay, practice integrating those traits. Practice being your own person and having your own style and taking up more space and, you know, doing things for exposure work to not worry so much about what people think. And, like, I feel like you've probably done that yourself over the years just by. By accident over time. But that's super interesting. And then the other part is like, okay, meet those. Those unmet needs or find other healthy sources of getting them met. So for anybody listening to that who relates to Mike's story and thinks back to, like, any kind of limerence that you've had, it's so interesting to be able to go back and be like, well, why was I in limerence? It's not random that these things happen. My subconscious is getting these dopamine hits for a reason and to sort of unpack that. So I want to sort of change gears now and dive into signs. Like, what were some signs? Like, from the outside looking in objectively, what signs were there that you might have been in limerence? We can cover general signs for all dismissive avoidance that they are really attracted to somebody and not really sharing it for sure.
- [18:15]
B
Okay, before we go into signs, I just want to say one quick thing to wrap up the last point. The reason I know, like, before, I didn't even know the word limerence. So when this was happening, I just thought, like, oh, my gosh, I love this person so much. I want to be with them, etcetera, but like the most obvious way I think to know that you're in limerence with someone, like you don't really know them. If I look back at it, it's like, yeah, we had some pleasant interactions, but we never really sat down and got like really vulnerable. I didn't find out her hopes, dreams and aspirations for life. I didn't find out a lot about her history, family history, dating history, etc. Like the things that build true intimacy of someone is like knowing them really, really getting to know them and who they are as a person. Yeah, it was just more of this idealized version of like oh my gosh, like I want to be with this person so bad. Yeah, but you don't know the person. Like really, you're trying to bypass and skip the most important part which is to see like do you guys match on a energetic level? Like do you guys have this, do.
- [19:28]
A
You share the same values and morals and standards and can you talk through things and have our conversations? Like it's like you skip all the real goods that are necessary for a relationship. Yeah, I just hear that.
- [19:39]
B
I wonder if like, and maybe you know this better than I do, I wonder if people actually, who did actually get the chance to be with their limerent crush if a lot of times it like doesn't work because you're going in with so much expectation and idea of perfection of someone that like when you find out things that are like kind of unbecoming or like find out things that are not in alignment with your values, it must be such a letdown and like coming down from that high where you're like, oh, like I don't know if I really am compatible with this person.
- [20:14]
A
Honestly, like limerent relationships don't really work. Like I don't think I've ever seen somebody really make it actually maybe twice that I can think of. But it's like two people in particular who is, they're really doing the deep inner work and they like realized they were in limerence really early and were able to kind of turn the boat around and because one of the things that happens with limerence and you'll probably see this but is that when people are in limerence they, they're not themselves around the person. They get so nervous they don't know what to say, they clam up or they try to people please too much or they try to become what they think like their object of limerence wants from them and so then they're not like their authentic selves and so then it almost like or they get so scared to. If they're more avoidant. Right. Like, like, you in that scenario, like, you were scared to even really, like, initiate or try or make it be known that you were interested. It sounds like you kind of did indirectly, but not too much. Kind of like, very gently, because you don't want to be rejected by the object of limerence either. And so a lot of times what happens is, like, people will. Will just not operate as they really would at their fullest capacity as a person. And so it already is like, this. This likelihood of sabotaging the relationship dynamic longer term. And so, yeah, so you'll see that a lot of the times. And then the only times I've seen limerent relationships work is somebody who realizes they're in limerence actually does the work around it first. And then there are the more stabilized versions of themselves. Like, in your case, for example, the person would, if it were somebody in your scenario, would, like, practice taking up more space, doing exposure work around what people think or rewire core wounds so they're not coming from this place of, like, I'm not good enough or I'm unworthy. And then as they start to integrate some of the traits they're so infatuated with, because I honestly hear limerence like this, and I'm like, when I hear that story and you're like, oh, I didn't even know the person. I just, like, hear, like, my subconscious wanted to attach to what they represented. Like, that's all. And so when somebody does that and, like, takes in some of that, then they can go be more functional. But most of the times, it just doesn't even work in the first place. Because people are the panicked version of themselves.
- [22:16]
B
Exactly. And if you think about it as well, it's kind of not fair to the other person because you're putting them up on this pedestal of, like, they can do no wrong. And you know that that's a high sort of bar that you have to keep up. Like, even though you weren't. You weren't asking to be, you know, looked up to being up there, it's kind of like, yo, like, I'm not perfect. Like, I'm not this perfect, ideal person, and I'm gonna let you down and I'm gonna make mistakes. Like, it's almost too much pressure, and it's pressure.
- [22:48]
A
Go ahead, go ahead.
- [22:48]
B
No, I. I just. I remember one time I was dating someone, and I can tell, like, they were. They were saying all these good things about me, and, like, it was almost too Much. I was like, no, no. Like, you're, you're, you don't really know me fully yet and you're sort of propping me up. You know, it's nice to hear good things, but like, when it comes all the time, it almost is like you're just like, no, like, I don't want that much praise and like admiration and like constant compliments. Like, it's just, it's too much. Yeah.
- [23:20]
A
And I think the other thing and, and you know, this is the first thing I think of is that when you're somebody is object of limerence, you feel really unseen because you know, this person has this whole story crafted about you and this whole thing and you're like, wait, do you even know me? Like, you know, you have this clear, like, whole future plan and all these things. But, like, I wasn't incorporated into your future plan. Like, what if I don't want that plan, Plan or. But do you even know who I am? Like, you have all these ideas about me, but you haven't gotten to know me. And so I think there's actually like a feeling of disconnect being on the other end of that.
- [23:53]
B
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, yeah, thanks for letting me get that point out there. But to your earlier point, you're asking what are some of the signs, like if, if a da or just if somebody's in limerence with you?
- [24:05]
A
Yeah. Dismissive avoidance in general, I think is a, Is a good one. So, so looking back and we can kind of like go through some different signs, but looking back. Well, one of the first ones, and you said this yourself, is like dismissible wins will often reach out indirectly. So that's why I sort of asked. And a lot of times indirectly, it's literally on social media, like every single one of your posts. Now, I want to make the distinction that if a dismissive avoidant is reaching out and liking your post very sporadically, they like your post once every few weeks. Or if they're a good friend and they like your post, that's very different. Right. That could be like somebody being supportive as a friend. That could be somebody, oh, they like the content that you're putting out or maybe you share vulnerably on the Internet and they like to read about it and it inspires them or something. But really for a dismissive avoidant, when there's a lot of consistency around it and you kind of have that in your story, which was like every single post, you were going to like it, and it's like the dismissive avoidance way of trying to connect, but they're not usually being as upfront as they could be.
- [25:07]
B
Yeah. And yeah, even just the indirectness of us, like, you want to ask someone out on a date? Like, you wouldn't dare be like, oh, hey, I was wondering if I could take you for dinner Friday night. Like, that would be way too, like, vulnerable and scary to be open for rejection. So you, you would have to, like, find like, a loophole or like a backdoor way to ask someone to do something. Like, I don't know, like, oh, hey, I'm gonna be in the area around, around your work tomorrow. I have to pick up something at this store. Do you want to just come, Come meet up for a few minutes? You know what I mean? Like, it wouldn't be so, like, overt where it's like, oh, hey, can I take you out for a drink? Like, it's, it wouldn't be asking somebody out on a date, but you'd see a DA sort of trying to initiate something where you're, you're meeting up or, or connecting, but it, and, and probably the other person's going to be confused where they're like, did they just ask me out? Like, is, yeah, yeah. You're unsure whether it's like, a date or not?
- [26:06]
A
Yeah.
- [26:06]
B
And I, I, I, I don't think I know in the past. I think a lot of people that I dated in the early days, they were like, really confused if I was just like a, a nice guy or if I was like, kind of trying.
- [26:20]
A
To make a do something more. Yeah, 100%. And it's so interesting. I used to have clients that I would see who are DAs. I remember this one in particular, and he was so sweet, and he, like, was a super DA and just had a kind heart. And, you know, and I remember he really liked this girl and he came to me and he talked to me about it and he like, it was early days of working together, and he said, yeah, I go out with her for dinner like every Saturday. And we like, we'll go out for dinner every Saturday and we'll hang out till two in the morning and drink wine and stay up late and all these things. But then I always just like. And he just never made a move. And he was like, and he was like, I can't tell if she likes me, but I think she was a little more avoidant too. So I think nobody was really willing to put anything forward. And so then they both were just in this loophole of nobody doing anything. And I was like, you have to literally go and be like, hey, I'm really interested. Like, you just have to break the ice. Like, just pull the band aid off and like. And I remember being so hard for him to do. And anyways, so it's just. It's one of those situations where it's like, until you're direct, you don't really give yourself the fair shot. And like, once you're direct, then everything else can really change.
- [27:34]
B
Yeah. So many funny things come to mind during that. But, like, I almost think a lot of DAs who are dating other attachment styles. So, you know, if you want to go to male female dynamics, people think like, oh, traditionally the in. In a heterosexual relationship, the male should be the one to make the first kiss or like initiate a kiss for the first time. But I think for das, it's like a different totally all together. And I almost think that some women get so fed up or like, so like that they just, they just go and do it and go for it.
- [28:08]
A
Yeah.
- [28:08]
B
And I know that's happened to me in the past and I know I've been like, relieved or happy that person.
- [28:15]
A
Oh, for sure. If you're like, trying to avoid the rejection. For sure.
- [28:18]
B
Exactly. But that's not fair. Like, that's not.
- [28:20]
A
But it's also a case to like, get yourself friend zoned if you're a dismissive avoidant. Like, I know so many people who literally, like, like, were in that space for so long or like, I remember this one particular circumstance. I was in college and I kind of was interested in this guy and. And we would all, we, we work together and I would always hang out with him after work and like, you know, for like an hour, hang out, whatever. And then, you know, and he was for sure da. And I didn't know anything about attachment. Like, I had learned very high level things about attachment cells, but I wasn't like, thinking about it the way I know about it now. And this went on for like, months. And I was interested in him, but he wouldn't like, make a move or say anything. And so I was like, oh, I guess he just thinks he's my friend. And then I was like, okay, he's my friend. And honestly, for me, like, once I friend zone somebody, there's just like, no going back. It's hard to, like, look at it differently. And then I remember like a year later, then, like, he left the job and didn't keep working there. And then like a year later, I remember him like, saying to me, oh, I was like, so interested in you that whole time. And I was like, oh, I had no idea and just didn't think. And so it's funny because I think it's like a people. And I would see this with clients. I see. I would see these words with people, like. But I think it's a really easy recipe to put, like, because you're never really being clear. And then I think a lot of times in traditional sort of gender norms, people are expecting the guy to do something. But it's so true that a lot of dismissive avoidance won't. Just won't and won't be very direct and won't do that. So it's really interesting for people listening. And I don't want this to be, by the way, for everybody listening, a call for every person to be like, oh, now if somebody is not showing direct interest in me, they're probably just da. So let me just let it drag out. You shouldn't do that. That's not a good situation to be in long term. But it's good to just have that understanding or awareness.
- [30:10]
B
Yeah. And like, I can imagine just if you would have told that person the story you just told, if you would have told them, like, hey, man, you got like two more dates where if you don't kiss this girl, you're going into the friend zone. I guarantee you, sort of he would have made the move right away. Because when we find that out after, it's very upsetting. It's like, oh, man. Like, yeah, I didn't know. I thought this was maybe the pace they go at or like, I wasn't sure. She wasn't giving me obvious signs. So you really. For both sides, one person, if you're into someone, like, you gotta. There has to be a bit of vulnerability. Like, you gotta put yourself out there a little bit. Of course, having signs helps. Like, if you're with someone and they're, I don't know, going closer to you or like a lot of eye contact, like, there's small little body language things you can look for. But even if you're just completely, like clueless, like, if you make a move and the person like, is like, you know what? I feel better as friends, then at least you know where you stand. Like, yeah, you feel a little sheepish or, you know, it might not feel great for a few minutes, but that feeling goes away and then you know where you stand and you're not going to waste another three, four months of this sort of game that you're not sure what's happening.
- [31:29]
A
Totally. And it's So I think the key word that you said there is vulnerability. Like, it's a vulnerability issue ultimately. Right. It's like if somebody's scared to do anything. Okay, so anyway, so we keep digressing, but I think it's really interesting. It's for signs that a dismissive avoidant is actually interested and maybe even in limerence, but, like, they're hiding it. Right. So we talked about, like, reaching out indirectly, like you said. Like, I think that was just like such a good example when you're like, if she had a social media post, I was going to be liking it. Like, that's such an obvious example. Another one is this sort of these, like, indirect time that you spend with somebody, like maybe initiating, hanging out with them, but then really never making a first move or making it super clear. So you're kind of in this gray area. What else would you say in terms of a sign that somebody's really interested in?
- [32:17]
B
Yeah, probably asking a lot of questions. Like, really, like, trying to get to know the person when maybe you don't know. They don't know you that well. So they might go like, into asking deeper questions and you're just like, oh, okay. Because they're just trying so almost like desperately, like, get closer to you. And like they're trying to skip that, like, longer courtship dating process. They're asking these questions to like, let. They want to be let in, like, earlier than later. So you might notice, you know, someone who maybe was a co worker who at first wasn't too chatty, but then all of a sudden they seem to be asking these, like, personal questions.
- [32:55]
A
That's a great sign. That's such a good one that I, I hadn't thought of that, but I totally see that in retrospect with so many people. And it's also because dismissive wins are not going to spend time like, thinking or, or asking questions to people that are just not interested in hearing that information from. So, like, that's a great sign. I think that's got to be like, the number one sign to look out for, for sure.
- [33:17]
B
A DA doesn't really ask all these, like, feelings questions. I want to know about, like, interpersonal relationships and how is your relationship with your mom and dad growing up? Stuff like that. You see those coming from a da, you're like, oh, okay, yeah, what's going on?
- [33:34]
A
And it's interesting because they do it before things are too vulnerable, so they'll kind of do it early. Which I think presents them, like, with a lot more depth. Well, they have the depth, but they're often like hiding it. Right. And so you'll see that and it's like. And I think that also in early stages for people, I'm just reflecting on like so many conversations over the years I've had with people. But I think that presents them as more emotionally available early on too because there's this dynamic of like they're asking deep questions, they're like, you know, they're trying to get to know you. But then it's. There's the actual attachment bond form that's they'll start to pull away or once there's like a commitment or more pressure, expectation, that's when you start to see them really pull away. And that's where it can feel like, I think a little bit of emotional whiplash sometimes on the other end for people.
- [34:17]
B
Oh yeah, for sure. Days tend to always show up really awesome in the first little while and they're very present, great listeners and question askers and all that kind of stuff. So they can be viewed as secure. For sure. Like a lot of people talk about, you know, oh, I met this amazing secure guy, like, things are great. And then you find out weeks later they're like, this guy is so avoidant. Like I can't even get him to, you know, I don't know, share his feelings about anything, etc. Etc. So it is interesting how that doesn't come out. Yeah. That early on they, they show up really, really good and you can kind of get tricked by that. But another thing might be like you notice somebody like checking you out all the time. So a lot of times like DA is like, especially I saw a meme the other day about being at the gym. They're like, you know, the guy likes you but won't talk to you. Like you'll see them constantly like looking at you and maybe like looking away and then you look back and they're looking again. So. Or at work, a co working situation, you just notice somebody looking at you.
- [35:19]
A
Kind of like staring at you from afar. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [35:22]
B
Like probably dreaming and fantasizing, but like way too scared to go up and talk to you because if they went and talked to you, if you're their object of limerence, they're going to be like fumbling over their words. They're going to be like, they're just going to lose their head and not be able to function. So it's easier to sort of look at them from afar and fantasize about what could be without actually making a vulnerable Move.
- [35:46]
A
That's a great one too because it's that same dynamic like dismissive avoidance. I always think of them as like being very pointed with their attention. Like they're not giving their attention to things they don't care about. Like they're just simply not. And so that's such a great example too because when somebody's not like a dismissive woman is not going to keep staring at their co worker unless they're like thinking about their co worker. If you're supposed to be like sitting there writing your report in the office and like you keep seeing your co worker stare at you from across the office like, and they're dismissive, avoidant, like not even like they're, if they, if they weren't interested they're going to be like doing something on their phone with their spare time or just anything but that. So I think that's a, another really good sign. I just wanted to jump in here really quick and let you know it is Cyber Monday and as a result we have a free giveaway that we're sharing with you. And this is that if you come in and you check out the seven day all access pass to the personal development school, you will get to keep for life for free the Somatic processing and nervous system regulation course. It is all about healing your attachment style through one of our six major pillars of healing your attachment style and becoming secure, which is self soothing, regulating your nervous system and being able to somatically process your emotions. We talk about everything from polyvagal theory to understanding the difference between sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. There's really powerful practices for self soothing and self regulation that are simple and easy to try and you will literally get to keep this for life. We're just doing it because it's Black Friday, Cyber Monday time. We will be closing the doors on this at the end of the promotion. So join now while you can. And I hope you enjoy. Okay, so you go ahead, you can do another one.
- [37:26]
B
Yeah, just another couple would be like you might notice the day overanalyzing your interactions. So like sometimes they're like saying sorry for things that like you didn't even notice, like oh yeah, I'm over talking right now or sorry. You know yesterday when I said can I borrow your stapler?
- [37:48]
A
Like I said it wrong and I said yeah, I know those are so endearing when people do that. But you just know like oh no, they're so stressed.
- [37:56]
B
Yeah, so like you feel like already you don't want this person to see Any, like, chinks in your armor. So then you're apologizing for things that you think that they might view as, like, unattractive or, like, weak or, like, not manly or whatever it is. So you just end up like, yeah, just analyzing every single thing or action that you did. And then you might, like, be telling them, like, oh, sorry, I didn't mean to say that, or, sorry, I didn't mean to do that. You're just like, you're good. Like, relax.
- [38:27]
A
Totally. I'll share another niche when I would see, with kind of younger, dismissive avoidance, but I would see that if they were interested in somebody, they would often go through somebody else. So they would go and, like, maybe ask your mutual friend about you or. And not like, oh, ask them on a date for me or something like that, but sort of, like, I would almost say, like, 25 and under, like, 30 and under. Going in directly through, like, mutual friends to ask about you or get information about you. And it's like, as soon as you see those things, dismissive avoidants are not gonna do that unless they're interested. Like, and sometimes, why is this person asking about my life who's dismissive, Warden? But again, it's kind of this, like, indirect way of trying to find that workaround, to get to connect without ever having to be actually vulnerable.
- [39:07]
B
That's the game. Always finding the indirect. The most least vulnerable way to.
- [39:12]
A
To get the job, to do anything.
- [39:14]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is. It can be so. So confusing. I'm sure it's interesting because living in Mexico here, women that I know are from Canada and the United States always say, like, they really appreciate Latino men because, oh, in the first five seconds, yeah, they know what this person is into. Like, if they're liking them or not or if it's Roman not. Whereas a lot of times in. In Canada and the U.S. there's a lot of, like, fill in the blanks. And I have to analyze this interaction. What did this mean when they did that? And xyz. And, you know, it's. It's a bit of a. I'm sure it's a headache for anybody that's been there.
- [39:56]
A
I'll be honest. I actually see big differences between Canada and the U.S. because having spent, like, I went to school in Georgia and then Florida and then lived on, off in the US I actually think I've spent slightly more time in my adult life since 18 in the US than in Canada. But, like, really close. And I would even say, like. Like, in the US Men are generally more Direct as a whole. And, and you know, I think there's that sort of like, I think there's the, the sort of Canadian culture in a way where it's like, oh, sorry, like don't, don't offend anybody and kind of walk on eggshells. And there's some of that too that I think probably plays into a little bit of that more.
- [40:31]
B
For sure. Canadians, I think we don't want to be pushy. Like that is like one of the last things Canadians want to be is like pressure someone or be like pushy. We want to be sort of viewed as like laid back and easygoing and like, oh yeah, whatever. Like it's all good, whatever. Even though we have these feelings that we want things. But I think we're just more, yeah. Laid back in our approach and don't want to like pressure someone or make someone feel uncomfortable. So I think that's probably one of the differences too there in Canada, US Dating relations.
- [41:03]
A
Yeah, I do totally think it's healthier to just like tell it how it is, say it up front, be clear, maybe not too early. Like you don't have to say something on like the first day, like, oh, I, you know, if somebody's in limerence, you don't have to say like, I like every one of your social media posts you notice, you know, not something like that, but I think to be more forthcoming and present things because then just people know where everything stands and it's easier and there's less games and it's more direct and it's not like somebody's trying to play games per se, but sometimes that gets brought into that. Incidentally, if there's a lot of less direct communication coming in, and I talk about this in long term relationships, as a general rule, the less direct somebody is in terms of how to communicate, the more they have to go in a roundabout way. And you see this less with dismissive avoidance, but you see it a lot with AP's or fearful avoidance. The less directive a communicator you are about your needs, the more you end up being manipulative to get your needs met. So you think of like an AP who might like try to make their partner jealous to get reassurance. And it's like, well, that's a really like, that's kind of a manipulative strategy to get reassurance. For our lovely APs, it's rooted in like fear and nervousness and they don't want to take up too much space and they don't want to Be, you know, seen as not good enough. And so they, they try to find in these indirect ways. But generally like, even if it's rooted in innocence, the, the less direct we are, the more manipulative the strategy often becomes.
- [42:25]
B
Yeah, that makes so much sense for sure. Just to touch on the scenario before, I was just curious, like, it's also, it's also like a little. Even though it's unhealthy, like you don't want to have a limited object for like a long period of time. Like, because as we know, like, you're, you're sort of creating this false world and you're not being vulnerable and there's, there's a lot of sort of downsides to it. But like, it feels so good. Like it feels you're excited by like having this object of limerence. So I can see how it would be really addictive and like, like fun. But like we said, like, if you keep going with it, it's, it's obviously you're just going to be ignoring the, the voids that are within you that you're sort of putting on the other person or like wishing that you had. But I will say I understand like until that happened, I understand why people kind of get like that. And yeah, it was just really. I just remember it being sort of like, even though it was taking up a lot of my like mental real estate, like that it was still very fun and it was like a lot of highs and like, just very like kind of exciting. The, the fantasy aspect of it, the.
- [43:39]
A
Thing that's so interesting is it's also a subconscious strategy to self soothe. Right. It's like a nervous system regulator. Like when you're like in limerence, you like get euphoria and soothing and it's like a way of actually soothing yourself subconsciously without having to be vulnerable or do the heavy lifting. So it's almost like I would compare it to spending a lot of your time playing a video game. You're in a fictitious world a lot of your time and it has costs to what it means to be a human being. In reality, it has costs to, okay, instead of playing video games for three hours, you could have learned something or built a life skill or watched a documentary or gone for a run or done something for your health. And so there's this added opportunity cost every time that happens. But it's a soothing mechanism and it's like connecting in the fantasy. And so I would say that in terms of like, you know, you think of that for a relationship and limerence it's like you, you connect with somebody so much in the fantasy that like, that's soothing and it's fun and that can be nice. But like, there's opportunity costs of like not learning the skills of like having a hard conversation or doing exposure work to be vulnerable or doing things that could enrich your actual real life. And so there's an inherent trade off there for sure.
- [44:51]
B
And I imagine another damaging aspect is like, you know, let's say eventually you get into a relationship that you're participating in a normal fashion, but you still have this sort of limerent object lurking in the background. Your partner is going to like find out about that and sense that and feel like pretty, pretty crappy about it. You know what I mean? So that's why I've always thought it's funny too. Or some people like worship celebrities where they have this huge like limerick crush on celebrities. But it's like, okay, yeah, they're, they're doing something that's very talented and, and they're very good at their craft. But like, maybe they're not the best person. Like maybe, maybe they don't know how to like communicate well, like you don't.
- [45:33]
A
Know or it's like sometimes it's like the character the celebrities plays. Honestly, I think the biggest person who falls into the most serious limerence with celebrities is dismissive avoidant women.
- [45:44]
B
Yeah.
- [45:46]
A
Oh my gosh, like, like 10 out of 10, like the amount of times I've had dismissive women clients who are women, I would say like, like 95% of them have had extreme infatuation with a celebrity and they'll often reference like in this particular movie and like their character. And it's like so interesting to me because it's not even the real person. It's not like why I watched all their interviews and they seem like a really nice human. It's like the character and the traits that the character represented in a particular film.
- [46:13]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. Just think of that quote where it says like. Sometimes it's better never to meet your heroes because you'll be like super disappointed. Yeah. Their whole life, for years they've like idolize this person and then when they've met the actual person, like they're not super warm or they're not that nice or you know, did want to sign an autograph and you're just like, what the heck? So you know, I understand the, the psychology behind it, but really we don't know these people. They could be like not the nicest People in the world.
- [46:48]
A
Yeah, but they're good.
- [46:49]
B
Good entertainers or good singers or good sports players. You can give them, you know, do for that, but, you know, we can't put them as this.
- [46:58]
A
Like, as if you know them as a person personally.
- [47:00]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [47:02]
A
Okay, so I want to go into one last thing. So let's talk about some of the biggest needs that dismissive avoidance tend to fall into limerence around. So I can share a couple, and I just want to get a few of these out here just before we wrap. But I would say the big things I find dismissive wins to really fall into limerence around are number one, like, when somebody's accepting of them. I find that to be a huge deal. If somebody's, like, empathetic and makes them feel understood, again, like, a huge thing. And remember, like, what Mike and I talked about at the beginning of this episode was that these are times where it's like somebody's meeting your deeply unmet needs. So a lot of times this misavoidance didn't feel understood or empathized with or attuned to or accepted in their childhood. So these become really big things. I don't know if there's anything else you want to add. I have a few more I would add there, but does anything stand out to you in the past in terms of needs that you'd be, like, really in limerence around?
- [47:54]
B
Yeah, just if somebody's, like, caring, super supportive, gets, like, genuinely happy for you, if, like, something good happens or, like, you're telling them about something and they're, like, really excited for you, that's kind of like, whoa, like that. That's interesting. Never felt that before. Like, proud of your accomplishments. If you did something that you're just like, oh, no big deal, but they're like, no. Like, you should really pat yourself on the back for that one. That really, really feels nice. So, yeah, it's almost like that emotional piece that you didn't get when somebody's showing these, like, excitement and enthusiasm for things that you do.
- [48:33]
A
Absolutely.
- [48:35]
B
That's huge. Yeah.
- [48:36]
A
I feel like that's also such a missing piece because it's like, as a child, if you didn't get your emotions attuned to and then mirrored, like, children need that. They need their emotions to be mirrored too, and they need to feel special and seen. And so if that's there, I think that that's something that goes such a. A long way for. For dismissive avoidance. And then the only other ones that I would probably throw in there Are like harmony dismissive ones. When they feel like somebody's like harmonious and safe, they'll end up like opening up and being vulnerable them longer term. And I find that sort of a cornerstone. Less so like limerence, but more like long term relationship attraction and, and connection there. And then when they feel, and you kind of said this too, like appreciated and like not appreciated and like, oh, you're the best partner in the world. But like these sort of like specific sincere forms of appreciation. Like, hey, I noticed you remembered to have that hard conversation. Thank you. Like, like, hey, I noticed you took out the trash that we talked about. Thank you. That's this thing that kind of makes them feel like a little bit more lit up.
- [49:29]
B
Yeah. If you're as like I talked about before, if somebody's just throwing one way compliments and, and oh, I appreciate you so much. You're amazing. You're the best. For a day that won't land well, that'll be like kind of hard to believe. Like you don't fully believe all of that about yourself. So when somebody's telling you how perfect and amazing you are, you're just like, like it's, it's kind of repelling. But if you're letting somebody know specific things that you do that they appreciate, that feels great. Because it might be something that like, yeah, you know what? Like I do. I am pretty good in that area. You know, I'm glad somebody noticed. So you have to give like more specific compliments. And when somebody does that, that feels so good. Because generally I don't think we're taking inventory of the things we, we do good or do like great. Especially in relationships, we're more concerned with sort of, you know, not being triggered and feeling like we're not deficient and stuff like that. So when somebody's pointing out the opposite that, that goes like such a long way. We can be really like drawn to that. Good example. Yeah.
- [50:36]
A
So this is a really full episode. I feel like we covered a lot of ground. We had some really good shares. Thank you for your vulnerability and just like sharing and I think that was such a great example. If you haven't already, make sure you check out Mike. His social media links are down below. Make sure you also check out the personal development school and all these cool free trials that we have going on right now and course giveaways. And thank you for stopping by. If you want to listen to us on any podcast streaming platform, you can check us out there. If you're watching us on YouTube or vice versa. If you want to see the full video version, check us out on YouTube and we hope you come back for next week's episode. And thanks for being here. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to subscribe, rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform, share it with friends and family who are on their journey of personal development and growth, and thank you for listening. Next week we'll be back with more insights to guide you on your journey. And until then, keep practicing our tools and strategies to change your subconscious mind and apply some of the powerful learnings from this podcast so that you experience real life transformation.