← The Thais Gibson Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript321 lines
- [00:00]
A
So then that fear comes out again. Where am I going to be vulnerable and have my heart just exploded again? Where, you know that it's, you know, he'll walk away. And then I've been vulnerable and let my guard down.
- [00:16]
B
And so we're going to go right into it for a second, if you can. I'd love for you to say to Steve, like, I need to know, I need reassurance that you're in this right now and that you're going to stay. So.
- [00:28]
A
Steve. Mr. I know that we've been through a lot and that it's still an uphill climb, but I do need to know that the commitment is there, that you are going to be there through the good times and the bad times and that we're going to work through it all.
- [00:54]
C
Lisa Nestor Sorensen, I do commit to you just like we did last Saturday. No, week ago Saturday we renewed our vows.
- [01:05]
B
Oh, that's beautiful.
- [01:06]
A
But not officially, legally.
- [01:08]
C
Not legally, but we renewed our vows. And I love you completely, wholeheartedly. I trust you. We've got some work to do. But God's been doing some amazing things in our lives over the last two years and he's got a purpose in all this. And I fully invite that we that we can be so much better now and love each other more than we ever did before.
- [01:43]
A
Yep, I know that.
- [01:46]
B
Welcome to the Breakthrough with Thais Gibson. I am really excited to share a beautiful story with you today. This is the story of Elisa and Steve in a relationship together who've really come a long way in understanding their own patterns, learning to navigate their differences and understand how to communicate in a vulnerable way. So rather than drifting chronically in conflict and building invisible walls, they instead consistently find their way back to each other. Let me introduce you to Steve and Lisa's story.
- [02:15]
A
Hi, My name's Lisa. I am originally from a small town here outside of Toronto and grew up in the quiet and moved to South Florida when I turned 15. And fast forward, here we are with my husband Steve, and here with Thais, just trying to navigate a few things in our marriage. And one of the big things is conflict resolution because we're both conflict avoiders. So we're looking forward to what she has to offer us, too.
- [02:53]
B
And will you share a little bit about your backstory?
- [02:55]
C
Yeah. Steve Nestor and grew up in Ohio, moved to Florida when I was about 25, 26, and then was married. First wife passed away. I met Lisa a few years after that, actually at church. And so she's very attractive young lady, and she still is. And so we got married. All was bliss. And there was a conflict avoidance from the beginning. And so we're here to help, to learn how to work through that and know each other better. Each better, know each other better, and to love each other better.
- [03:48]
B
That was really beautiful. Thank you. Well, I'm excited you're both here today. And before we even begin, I just want to acknowledge both of you for just the vulnerability, the courage. Like, I just truly thought each of you were so beautiful in your sessions, and just how you shared and how much care and love there is for each other, and it really stood out. And the courage to work through conflict avoidance and to be here and address it head on is really incredible. So thank you. So let's begin by talking a little bit about a time there was conflict. And we're gonna start. We'll go into actually working through the entire conflict itself. But I want to look back at times that there was conflict avoidance. And I want to map out together first how you would each respond in that situation, and we'll really sort of play it out. So I don't know if there's a conflict that comes to mind from, you know, Maybe years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, you know, quite a ways back. Let's look at, like, that typical pattern together, and I want to see all the ways that you would cope, and then we'll go into working through the conflicts instead.
- [04:47]
C
Well, I thought of one here at the beginning, because when we got married, she is Lisa Sorensen and still is, and I'm Steve Nestor. So she wanted to keep the family name. And so I was a little bit maybe annoyed with that, but I. Okay, I can see the value in that and why she wants to do that. And so I just let it go. And it wasn't a big thing, but now is moving way forward. Since we did a marriage intensive, she wants to be Lisa Nestor. And so the value of that for me, just that she wants to do that is so special for me. And so the conflict back then, I didn't think it was conflict, but as I think about looking back, you felt a certain way. There was. Yeah.
- [05:57]
B
Excellent.
- [05:57]
C
And why, you know, why. Why don't you want to take my name? But we didn't have that much of a discussion about it because I just
- [06:06]
B
accepted both feel and then kind of drift.
- [06:09]
C
And I would accept that. Okay, she's got a reason for this, and it's a legitimate reason. And.
- [06:14]
B
Yeah, okay. And one of the things that's so interesting is Coming from, you know, a path of being more avoidant and still working through some of those edges. It's very common for an avoidant to feel something, kind of stuff it down and do it very quickly, I might add. So you almost don't even fully consciously recognize your own patterns and then. Or your own feelings. And then, you know, what you don't recognize that follows is that then because you're feeling a certain way and you built that invisible wall with those feelings, then you drift. And. And so I'm curious, just looking back at that moment, do you remember what you did? Did you sort of drift away a little bit or just kind of not go around that topic?
- [07:01]
C
I basically accepted it, and I, like, accepted her reasoning behind it and. But I didn't think it was worth bringing up. I don't think we had too much discussion about it. I didn't think it was worth bringing up to have an argument about her.
- [07:28]
B
Yeah, yeah. And what's really beautiful, and I'm curious if this resonates for you, is one thing that you did a really good job of doing in our discussion was sharing his inner world openly. Like, oh, this is what came up for me. This is what I'm feeling or needing. And really getting into that, because I was saying, you know, you having been fearful, avoidance, fearful winds want to deeply know their partner. They want to understand what you're feeling. They want to know your inner world. And they see that as a connection to. To intimacy emotionally. Like, oh, I know you. And I think maybe from. From your perspective, you come a little bit from a place of, I don't want to have an argument, and that cause a distancing between us. But if there's this automatic distancing that happens even just subtly but consistently over time from things you never said, it probably hurts your need for intimacy even more. Like, you'd almost rather know what he's feeling around things and be able to talk them through and hash them out than just see distance and not really know why. Is that fair?
- [08:27]
A
Oh, yeah. I mean, I can. There were so many times when I could. I could read him, whether body language or the, you know, the eyes, you know, kind of going up and making a look or something or walking away from me. Like, whether he was a little angry at me or upset with me or. But he wouldn't say anything. He'd just walk away. So I was kind of like, oh, I want to have a fight with you or something. But then I would retreat too, because it's like, well, it's Obviously not worth it. You know, I mean, we just go separate ways.
- [09:08]
B
And. And when you don't, when you can tell that Steve is feeling a certain way, like a little frustrated, a little bit of tension, and he walks away, what comes up for you? What do you feel in those moments? Because I think this will be important to give Steve some context.
- [09:24]
A
Well, it's almost like there's no value in sharing the emotion or the feeling, because either it's not as important or, you know, giving me the feedback of what you're feeling and then what mine might be a result of it, or, you know, it's like a communication that isn't dealt with, and then it feels kind of, like, dismissive. So it's like, okay, well, you know, it's not.
- [10:05]
B
And. And you're probably there trying to avoid conflict by dismissing it. Like, okay, I just don't want to have a problem between us, so I'll just walk away. But when you get dismissed, what do you tend to feel or make that mean about?
- [10:15]
A
Yeah, it's. I'm not important enough to, you know, to talk, to work. Work through whatever it is or share the feeling or the emotion, to try to work through a situation. So it's like, you know, another little door that's been closed and not developing. Because we know that conflict really. I mean, we know now, but the conflict will lead to more intimacy. And that's what, you know, sometimes you want that, but don't recognize at the moment that it's, you know, the best thing to be doing.
- [10:52]
B
Yes. And it's not always easy. And when you make that situation mean I'm not important, I feel dismissed. I want to talk, but I feel like, okay, I can't. How do you then behave? What's your theme there?
- [11:08]
A
Maybe you can answer that better than me. I don't. I isolate. Yeah, Typically just isolate. Then I'd, you know, go outside and work in the garden or do something that, you know, let the. The steam roll a little bit and build a little bit, and then, you know, compartmentalize, and I'm gonna leave that there, and I'm gonna bring it up later, and it's just gonna blow up and.
- [11:37]
B
Yeah, yeah. And waiting because it's not resolved. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's very human, and I. I'm very interested, you know, and we're just sort of noticing the themes first before we dig into them. But when you avoid conflict, I would love to hear your relationship to it. Is it about you feeling like Lisa's not Important to you, or is it that you feel like, I don't want to have a fight and distance from her because I care about her and I don't want to have something worse between us? Like, what is your relationship in those moments where you do feel frustrated and you walk away? Is it a not knowing what to do instead or.
- [12:13]
C
Yeah, it's. It's not worth the argument not knowing. Not having the. The learned how to have that conversation or approach and talk about the conflict. So it's a lack of knowledge and
- [12:39]
B
kind of a learned helplessness a little bit.
- [12:41]
C
Right. And then like I say, it's just. It's easier just to let it go,
- [12:48]
B
seem to put it to the side and maybe in the short term.
- [12:52]
C
Yeah, exactly.
- [12:53]
A
Yeah. And.
- [12:54]
B
And when you say it's. It's not worth having the conversation, is that a reflection of you feeling like Lisa's not worth having the conversation with or what are you afraid happens when you say it's not worth having to have the conflict? Clearly, to me, you're seeing the conflict as having a negative consequence, and that's why you're trying to avoid it. So what are you afraid happens if you do have the conflict?
- [13:18]
C
I think part of it would be me recognizing that, you know, I'm not good enough or I'm failing in certain aspect, and I don't want to feel that way. I want her to see me as the strong man, the strong lover man, And again, just not knowing how to approach. Broach that subject in that argument.
- [13:57]
B
So I hear, like, all those times over the years that you avoided conflict was maybe to protect Lisa's perception of you a little bit.
- [14:06]
C
That's good.
- [14:07]
B
And to, you know, also not feel hurt because. Because there's that not good enough wound that you maybe carry around a little bit. And there's a part of wanting to not feel that way and then also just feeling like if I do, I don't know how I would do it. Exactly. And so those three things kind of come together and it leads to one only outcome that's open to you, which is to. To move away from it. Does that resonate?
- [14:29]
C
Yes.
- [14:30]
B
Yeah. And what would you usually think instead you would go into, well, he doesn't even care about me enough to have the conflict. And you sort of saw it through that lens instead, I imagine.
- [14:39]
A
Yeah, yeah. That it's, you know, when you feel something's important and needs a discussion and then it doesn't happen, then it kind of feels like you're not being validated. You're not heard.
- [14:53]
B
Yeah.
- [14:53]
A
Not listened to. And I mean, he's always been very good. Like, if I would come home from work and, you know, I gab on about, like, the stress of the day or whatever. He's a good listener about that. But then it, it would be different if there was a conflict that related to us and a disagreement. And, and that's where you kind of feel, again, that dismissiveness of, of, you know, it's, you know, you're not facing what needs to be talked about because you don't want to have a heated argument.
- [15:31]
B
And so let's actually start here. I was going to go into specific conflicts, but I actually want to talk about just the idea that, that there's a walking away from conflict. And then I know that causes you to. To turn away as well. And let's just work on this first piece. So is there a recent time that this happened where there was a walking away, a moving away from a conflict that you can think of? It doesn't even have to be that recent. It can be just anything that comes to mind.
- [16:03]
C
The first thing that popped in my mind was from time to time, I would try to get inside her. Her shell and to her to tell me how she felt about something. And I obviously wasn't very good at it, but also I would get, you know, I don't really want to share about that, so I wouldn't. I wasn't able to penetrate that barrier. So after a few times of that, you know, I kind of gave up. Well, she's not going to share, you know, I'm not going to bother to ask anymore.
- [16:44]
B
And do you have a moment where you decided to give up or do you have a moment that you tried. That comes to mind, like a very specific one.
- [16:49]
C
I remember sitting at the kitchen table and we're sitting there in Royal Palm, and you're at the one end, I was sitting next to you, and. And she was obviously upset about something. I don't remember what. But then. And I didn't know what I had done. And so, you know, what did I do? Or can you tell me, you know, what are you feeling? You're irritated about something, you know, and basically she said she didn't want to talk about it.
- [17:29]
B
You're about to see me start finding exactly the painful meaning that Steve has given to situations. Because even dismissive avoidance, who may not feel as intensely flustered or emotional over things, they are also giving different situations in their lives meaning as well. And they're just a little bit quicker to shut down how they feel and move in a different direction to cope a lot more efficiently. And so we're going to go into some of the times that Steve has been through challenges or conflict and find that individual meaning that he gave. And we're actually gonna start questioning it to see if he can see outside of that story and in turn, hopefully not be repeating patterns where he so quickly feels a certain way, closes off and drifts away. Okay, perfect. So it's a really good example. So we'll start right there is that moment, and in that moment when. When Lisa doesn't talk about it, what comes up for you? What do you make it mean about you in the situation?
- [18:26]
C
But she doesn't trust me or she doesn't care enough to reveal how she
- [18:32]
B
really feels and doesn't care enough about me and the relationship.
- [18:36]
C
Yeah, about me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [18:38]
B
And it's interesting how you both have that story, right? You like, oh, he doesn't care enough about me. I noticed that earlier in the one to one sessions. But. So she doesn't care about me enough. And then you do what? Then you say, okay, I have to retreat. Right. And she doesn't care about you enough. Can you 100% know that that's true?
- [19:04]
C
No, no. It's just my assumption. My.
- [19:07]
B
What you feel in the moment, you're a pain. Right. And something that you've probably been carrying from your own childhood. And do you have any evidence of what it could be other than that happening in that moment? And I'll let you start and then I might ask you to chime in there. What do you think is happening besides Lisa not caring about you in that
- [19:23]
C
moment on both of us or on Lisa's behalf?
- [19:27]
B
On Lisa's side? Like, what do you think is happening from Lisa's side?
- [19:33]
C
That there's some pain involved where she has shared in the past, where she doesn't want to go there and
- [19:46]
B
maybe
- [19:47]
C
bring up that painful memory or like she's protecting herself. Yeah, protection.
- [19:54]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:55]
C
Her protectors at work.
- [19:57]
B
Yeah, exactly. And what happens to you then in that moment where you go, okay, she doesn't care about me enough to share? What do you end up doing and how do you end up behaving as a result of.
- [20:10]
C
I'm sad that she doesn't trust me enough to share how she really feels. But then again, I don't share how much. How I really feel that much either. So I understand somewhat. But it's a sadness. It's maybe a little bit of some uncertainty about our relationship that she wouldn't want to share more how she feels,
- [20:50]
B
like, are we gonna be okay? I don't know what's going on that she's not sharing? Like, that kind of uncertainty.
- [20:55]
C
Yeah. And actually, you know how much she loves me if she's not willing to share kind of how she feels.
- [21:08]
B
Yeah. So fear of being unloved in that moment a little bit as well. Yeah. Questioning, like, does she really love me if she can't share with me?
- [21:14]
A
Right.
- [21:14]
B
Yeah. And then there you are. And if you feel like I can't really make headway there or talk to her and I don't see it change, then you're kind of carrying this story that I'm unloved and not cared about in your own way. And then I imagine that that's when you then drift. Is that fair?
- [21:32]
C
Mm. Yep.
- [21:33]
B
And is there any part of you that feels like I just drift? Because Lisa's not important to me?
- [21:42]
C
Not that she's not important, but to continue to pursue that particular. Whether it's a conflict or it's not working for me, it's not worth it.
- [21:56]
B
It's not working. Yeah.
- [21:57]
C
Yeah.
- [21:57]
B
And I want to just notice for a moment, and we're gonna work through some of the stories here, but I want. You know, because I see you, and I think that you're carrying this story that, like, when he drifts or he pulls away, I'm not important. And I'm curious in those moments, whether it was that conflict or any conflict where you pull away, do you still feel like your wife is important to you?
- [22:20]
C
Yes, important. But maybe I don't have all of her. There's. There's a piece of her that she's not willing to share. So there's a little bit of. If you want to call it distrust, but maybe uncertainty and how she really feels.
- [22:44]
B
Yeah. But does that ever make you feel like Lisa's less important to you as a person? Probably. Probably not.
- [22:52]
C
It could. It could. I never thought of it that way, but it could be. It's like, you know, she'll isolate. Well, that'll make me isolate. You know, I'll just go do what I got to do.
- [23:05]
B
Yeah, you kind of go into coping. You go into, like, I need to diminish.
- [23:08]
C
Right.
- [23:09]
B
The. The need for connection, which is very dismissive. Avoidant. Dismissive. Avoidance. Do. I'm sure you might know this already, but. But dismissive avoidance, they. When they feel helpless or hurt, they work to try to create distance as a way to soothe themselves and as a way to kind of Cope. Okay, I'll go do my own thing over here. But when there's a conflict itself, like, do you ever feel like you love Lisa less or care about Lisa less, or is it just that you're coping, which makes a lot more sense to me?
- [23:35]
C
I think it's coping mainly, but I think it can chip away at the
- [23:41]
B
love, the connection over time.
- [23:44]
A
Yeah.
- [23:44]
B
Because it's chipping away at the intimacy.
- [23:46]
C
Right.
- [23:47]
B
Yeah. Difficult there. And you can probably see that on both sides. Right. That then. Then when you also pull away, it chips away as well. Right. And there's this. This drifting that constantly happens during the avoidance. So in the moment that you're sitting at that table, the. The conflict you brought up, and you were trying to come through to Lisa and trying to ask, from your perspective, were you sitting there feeling like, oh, I don't care about Steve, and that's why I'm not sharing and I don't love him very much, and that's not what I. That's why I'm not sharing. Or was there something else happening for you in that moment that was.
- [24:23]
A
Well, I'm not sure what moment he's talking about.
- [24:26]
B
Okay.
- [24:30]
A
I'm sure there were many like that, but.
- [24:33]
B
Well, in those types of moments, even where you close off or you protect and, you know, you each have this way of kind of pulling back and protecting. Is that because you are just feeling that you don't love Steve or you don't care enough to share, or is your relationship to that something vastly different?
- [24:49]
A
No, I think it's more. My protectors are coming out and saying, no, you don't want to go there because it creates even more pain if you are that vulnerable or if you share that in intimate detail that. That he might look at me differently and not respect me as much or see me for who I really am.
- [25:19]
B
Okay. Yeah. So you both have this very similar theme, which is very interesting, which is that in a conflict, part of why we drift is because in your individual, unique reasons are because I'm scared that this person. I don't want you to see me differently, and then maybe love me less or think that I'm not good enough in some way or not valuable, and then let me drift so that I protect what you think of me. Ultimately.
- [25:47]
A
Yeah.
- [25:48]
B
And. And then there's this part where, in turn, you then both make it mean well, because you're not sharing or you're not opening. Instead you're walking away or you're, quote, putting up the wall. Well, then you don't Care about me. And so notice this. This theme, it's like a round and
- [26:03]
A
around terrible, like, cycle of. Yeah.
- [26:08]
B
And so I want to question it for a second. So. So in the moment that you each don't share, when you protect, do you still care about Steve even though you're protecting.
- [26:23]
A
Oh, absolutely. And I think it's more. I'm trying to protect the relationship for me. Not only protecting myself, but protecting the relationship because I don't want it to be, you know, the muddy the waters or whatever, you know, just like it's. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think. I think I look at it that way that. Well, if you hear sometimes the crazy stuff that I think or that you're. You're not gonna love me as much or.
- [27:05]
B
And if you heard something that Lisa thought and it was in a triggering moment, or she was upset about something and she had an angry thought or. Or whatever type of thought, can you let Lisa know that you would still love her?
- [27:19]
C
I would still love you. And because of your vulnerability, I remember when we were dating, you shared something with me which was very painful, some trauma. And that made me love her all the more because that's what really cemented us together because she was able to share that with me. So back to your question. I think it would do the same, that it would. My heart would go out to her that she's sharing this with me, and she values me enough that she would share that, and she feels safe enough that she would share that.
- [28:13]
B
So can you look at Lisa and tell her, I want you to share, like, you're safe to share with me. I'm not going to judge you.
- [28:19]
C
Yes, Lisa, you are safe to share with me all your freckles and stuff from your past that have affected you and the way you love and our relationship. And I look forward to us being able to understand each other more, just really love each other for who we are and heal ourselves as well as our relationship at the same time.
- [28:56]
B
And I think that one thing that really came up that was beautiful is, like, how much you want Lisa to share. You're like, oh, I make it mean that I feel not loved or you, you know, or not cared about enough if she doesn't share. So I really hear, like, how much, how strongly you want Lisa to share and that it's a safe place for. For you to do so. And I want to flip it around for a second. So. So, you know, you have these moments where in the past, or at least in. In some of the patterns, you would pull Away as well. Right. Where you would kind of close off or dismiss. And we sort of established that it might be more about you trying to protect the relationship in its own right. Which is again very interesting how similar your, your habits are. You, you shut down to protect and put. And then you kind of walk off and drift away maybe at times to protect the relationship. And what Lisa thinks of you and I'm curious what your experience is. What do you want in those moments that Steve is pulling away or stepping away? What do you actually want and need instead?
- [29:56]
A
I think the biggest thing we've learned in the past six months, three months is that just this conversation, these kind of conversations, we've learned so much more about each other than we have in 22 years of marriage. And which is kind of like, wow, how could that be? But you know, a couple of in the intensive we did and you know, some of our maybe deep things that never came out before have brought us closer in that, in that way. And for me, I'm looking forward to that. It's like the little scenario of looking in the rear view mirror or the windshield. And yeah, it's important to not forget to look in the windshield, I mean, to look in the rear view mirror because you learn from what's behind you. But I'm just really excited about what we have ahead and using these tools like you know, through your courses and that's. Those are the things that I think are going to draw us closer together, you know, that we need.
- [31:26]
B
And if there's ever a situation where you were to see Steve walk away for a moment or not engage in a conflict, what would you need and how could you frame that in that moment?
- [31:38]
A
Instead, one of the tools I find that I think is a really good one is that we're starting to learn this too is like, okay, we don't have to talk about this right now, but let's put something on the schedule or on the calendar because I think this is too important not to have a conversation.
- [32:02]
B
Good.
- [32:03]
A
And plus our daily check ins too, I've really been able to keep things fresh enough where we're not letting things.
- [32:13]
B
I love that, I love that. And I want to push on it just a little bit more because I noticed this theme, and I noticed this a lot when we were chatting is this theme of doing the right things in the relationship. So that's the right thing. That's the perfect thing from like a buy the book. Look at it. Perspective, right? It's like, okay, we're going to put it on the calendar. We're going to talk about it, but I actually want to push you to be able to speak through things more in real time, even just a little bit, because that's going to be where you master this ability to deeply connect. And so I want to put this into something else. So let's say, Steve, were to take distance and that hurts you. What could you say in terms of, hey, this is what comes up for me when you take distance, and here's what I'm needing instead. And what would come up. Cause it doesn't have to be the conflict that's happening, but it might be, hey, when you walk away from me or when there's distance between us and we're not solving things for me, I start to feel abandoned or I feel unloved. And I really need to know that you care about me. We can talk about it later. But I need to know that you care and that you love me.
- [33:18]
A
Yeah.
- [33:19]
B
Would that be a possibility for you? Oh, yeah.
- [33:21]
A
Yeah, Absolutely. I mean, it has recently kind of came up, was two or three months ago when we were talking about this next mission trip to Uganda, and he had already decided that he was going to go and serve for the trip. And then I was kind of waiting and. And this is a bad. Not. Not a bad. It's. It's kind of like a thing that I think I do. It's like I'm challenging or testing to see how he's going to respond without communicating.
- [34:00]
B
Yes.
- [34:01]
A
And so very fearful.
- [34:02]
B
Avoidant. Yes. Right.
- [34:04]
A
So I was. I was kind of like, waiting to see how he would, you know, bring up whether I was going to go. He didn't ask the question. He didn't say anything about it. He, you know, so finally I did ask him, like, after he told me he had got his ticket and arranged things for his trip. And so I asked him, well, you know, have you thought about whether I should go? And then he said, no, actually, at that. That particular conversation, no, I hadn't really thought about it. And that was like, yeah, you hadn't even thought about me going with you. And so a day or so went by. It's kind of how I remember it. And you brought it up, I think,
- [34:58]
C
and said, I could tell there was.
- [35:01]
B
That's good.
- [35:02]
C
Something unspoken.
- [35:03]
B
That's a good sign to now bring it up. That's a good sign. Yeah.
- [35:05]
A
Yeah. And I think he brought it up like, you know, how did you feel when I said that I didn't think I wanted you to go on the trip? And I. And I was very honest and I just said, well, it really hurt because, you know, for me it would have meant so much for him to have said from the very beginning, like, you know, I know this isn't a vacation, it's not a pleasure trip. It's a lot of work, but I'd really like you to be on the trip so we can do it together.
- [35:40]
B
Yeah.
- [35:41]
A
And so we talked it over a little bit and navigated. But I recognized in myself that it's, it's almost like conniving where I felt like I was, I wasn't being honest with him from the get go about how you felt about how I felt.
- [36:04]
B
And so you.
- [36:05]
A
And I was waiting and test, kind of testing him. And I want to break that now.
- [36:10]
B
You're about to see here that Lisa shares needs and she's taking an amazing first step to actually communicating what she needs more of. But a lot of times this still falls on deaf ears with our partner because unless we paint a picture and get really specific, we can fall into the trap of thinking we're communicating, but we're not being clear enough or translating it enough for a partner to fully pick up on what we're saying and then rise to the opportunity to try to meet us there. And this is often where people feel most discouraged in relationships and communication because they think they're stating their needs, they think that they're being clear, and yet somebody still isn't fully understanding them. So if you're following along at home, watch as Lisa learn to be more specific about how to paint a picture for what her needs look like. And if you want some support as well, you can actually look at our worksheet down below that dives into major steps for fine tuning your communication and specifically going through things like positive framing and painting a picture. So there's no gap in your communication as you're starting to take these steps yourself. So let's just look at that one thing and we can go into Uganda. But hopefully you're seeing some of these themes and patterns of resume, a great job of sharing. So you will always test when you're not communicating.
- [37:25]
A
Okay.
- [37:26]
B
If you ever see testing, it's a symptom of a lack of vulnerability and communication. So if you catch yourself testing, it's a good checkpoint, it's a good reference point. I'm testing because I'm actually trying to get a need met, usually for certainty or reassurance or to know that I'm cared for, loved. And so that testing becomes a strategy when we don't want to be vulnerable because we're already hurt to try to get that need met directly for some certainty or for some reassurance. And so testing. If we're doing it, you want to go backwards into yourself and go, okay, so what am I testing? And what need am I hoping to get met by testing? So let's use this as an example. So when you go and you sort of test, and it's very innocent coping strategy, you're just trying to get a need met while protecting yourself. But in that moment that you test, what did you actually need from Steve?
- [38:14]
A
Oh, I needed for him to let me know that I was that important and valued and that it was his desire for us to be together. And. And that's, you know, I wanted that validation more than anything.
- [38:29]
B
And do you still need that now?
- [38:30]
A
Oh, absolutely.
- [38:32]
B
And are you comfortable sharing some validation around that, that you.
- [38:36]
C
Absolutely. Of course, my. My mindset was different and what you
- [38:43]
B
can share about it. You're welcome to say what your relationship was to give some context if you'd like.
- [38:49]
C
I'm kind of a, you know, this is the process sort of guy. And so the. The process was, you know, we'll. We'll do these couple video calls with some counselors or, you know, zoom calls, and then we'll do the. The weekend retreat, and then. And then we'll see what goes on from there.
- [39:14]
B
Yeah.
- [39:14]
C
Because I still didn't trust her. And so at the time when I made that decision to buy my own ticket, I was still in my protector. Protector and also my kind of bachelor mode, almost.
- [39:30]
B
Yeah. And when you say that, I. Sorry to interrupt you. I almost hear that it wasn't even, like, bachelor mode. Like, oh, I'm going to do my own thing and not care about anything. More like, there's a process for us rekindling, and I'm protecting that process as well. It has to exist in this way. And so thinking through that lens, is that correct?
- [39:50]
C
Yeah, that's kind of my rational thinking.
- [39:53]
B
And was there ever a part of you that intended to exclude or to not have Lisa there that you didn't want her enough to be there?
- [40:03]
C
You know, I didn't know if I wanted her there or not, but I just. I have some feelings about going there because it is a lot of work and the flights are terrible, and it's just, like, it's not fun. It's not a vacation, and it's not going to be for us. So I was rationalizing all this that, well, we're just going to follow the process and then we'll see what it, we'll see what God has for us at that point.
- [40:38]
B
Yeah. And so what comes up for you? I'm just curious when you say I didn't know, when you hear Steve say I didn't know if I wanted her there or does your mind kind of go to like, oh, then I'm not loved or valued enough or where do you.
- [40:49]
A
Well, I mean, my, my logical side says, well, he was still, we were still kind of negotiating where we were going to end up.
- [41:00]
B
Yeah.
- [41:00]
A
Not negotiating, but talking it through. Talking it through. And, but for me, it was, I'd already made my mind up. I knew that I wanted us to reconcile. I knew that I wanted us to be together again. And so for that, at that time, it was like, it was painful because it made me feel like maybe he's
- [41:26]
B
not fully on board.
- [41:28]
A
Fully on board.
- [41:29]
B
So there's the root of.
- [41:30]
A
Yeah, yeah. And, and so then that fear comes out again. Where am I going to be vulnerable and have my heart just exploded again? Where, you know that it's, you know, he'll walk away. And then I've been vulnerable and let my guard down.
- [41:48]
B
And so we're right into it for a second. If you can, I'd love for you to say to Steve, like, I need to know, I need reassurance that you're in this right now and that you're going to stay.
- [42:00]
A
So. Steve. Mr. I know that we've been through a lot and that it's still an uphill climb, but I do need to know that the commitment is there, that you are going to be there through the good times and the bad times and that we're going to work through it all.
- [42:25]
C
Lisa Nestor Sorensen, I do commit to you just like we did last Saturday. No, week ago Saturday, we renewed our vows.
- [42:37]
B
Oh, that's beautiful.
- [42:38]
A
But not officially. Legally.
- [42:40]
C
Not legally, but we've renewed our vows. And I love you completely, wholeheartedly. I trust you. We've got some work to do, but God's been doing some amazing things in our lives over the last two years and he's got a purpose in all this. And I fully invite that we can be so much better now and love each other more than we ever did before.
- [43:15]
A
Yeah, I know that.
- [43:18]
B
And it's so human and so normal to have moments where something comes up, a trip doesn't go as planned as you thought, and that you go there, your mind goes there because there's been wounds there in the past and we'll you know, way towards the end of this, we'll talk about how to rewire the wounds and some. Some action steps for that. But. But it's normal. And. And what will always be that path forward is in the moment, or as close to you can. As in the moment where that comes up to go and say, this trip. When you took the trip without me or planned it without me for me, what came up was this fear that maybe you're not committed, and I could use some reassurance or some clarity. And that way you can always move through that together. Right. And I think you've both been doing a really good job at being vulnerable and making those moves, but those moments are gonna be good reminders. Every time I catch myself testing, ooh, I missed a beat where I should have been vulnerable first.
- [44:09]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You missed the opportunity.
- [44:12]
A
Yeah.
- [44:12]
B
To be vulnerable. Right. And to be honest, it's always a missed opportunity to connect more deeply. Because the moment, even when we park it for a better time, that's still good, because you might need a moment to reflect and things like that. But I would encourage you to try, even if it's a little messier in the short term, to practice having the conversation in real time. To say, ouch, the trip without me, that hurts. That's scary. And to sort of share about what's coming up, because then eventually you'll do it enough times, it'll be second nature. And all of a sudden, if a conflict or a disagreement or a confusion point, a miscommunication come up, it really doesn't hold a candle to anything because you just know that you'll hash it out in real time and get rid of anything. Because when we ruminate about it and we store it, repetition and emotion of ruminating actually builds neural networks in our brain where we now keep these stories, and we keep them close to us and we invest and we believe in.
- [45:07]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [45:07]
B
So the faster we do talk about things, ultimately, the less imprinting happens at a subconscious level about these narratives that, oh, maybe Steve's not committed and that's why the trip happened. And you carry that for a few days and kind of stew in it. And that's actually conditioning the way you see Steve over time. Yeah. So. So in this dynamic, is there anything else you need now about the trip when it comes to Uganda? Because I remember you had mentioned concerns.
- [45:37]
A
No, I think. I think we've kind of hashed a lot of it out already. And the only thing is, like, because we'll be apart, that's the part that's for, you know, like almost three weeks.
- [45:50]
B
And what are you afraid of will happen if you're apart for three weeks?
- [45:55]
A
I don't know that I really feel afraid. I just, I want to make sure that we stay connected in, you know, whether it's a phone call or we try to communicate, you know, where it's. It's not so much time is going by with, you know, today there's video calls and, you know, as long as you have a Internet and, you know, even though the time difference, all of that, it's, it's. It was even important to me, you know, a couple of months ago when we were living in separate places, just to have those video calls. And I did tell him, I did tell you that, that, you know, look, every other day isn't working for me. I need, I need, you know, us to stay, whether it's good morning or good night, you know, video chat, just so that we. We're seeing each other a little bit more and staying connected. Because the distance, it's. It's not good. Beautiful for me.
- [47:02]
B
And so let's get really specific because, because you have this dynamic now where you're. It's going to be a great growth opportunity. You're apart for two and a half, maybe three weeks and, you know, there's this part of. Okay, well, there's this distance happening between us and it's a great opportunity to break a pattern. Right.
- [47:18]
A
So.
- [47:18]
B
So I think the first part of this starts by being really specific about what you need. Like, what's your baseline for connection that you need? Is it a video call every day? Is it a video call every third day in a phone call or text message in between? Like, what's, what would actually make you feel truly comfortable and fulfilled, even if there's distance?
- [47:38]
A
I think. I think a video call every day is reasonable.
- [47:42]
B
That's good. And that's a beautiful need. Yeah. And notice that you shrank a little when you did that. As if, like, oh, no, I can't ask. Yeah.
- [47:50]
A
Can I ask?
- [47:50]
B
Is that okay, you're worthy. That's you. That's fully acceptable. And you can take up space in that a little bit and honor that and own that. And so I'm curious, is that something that's okay for you?
- [48:03]
C
It might be three in the morning
- [48:04]
A
for you, but that's okay.
- [48:07]
C
Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully have Internet. Internet most of the time and water and electricity.
- [48:16]
B
And so what comes up for you? Like, what's. Cause we can flesh out like, little tangible pieces too, because I see how you're so committed in your heart to showing up and being there and just trying your hard out. And then I get the sense, honestly, from your reaction that you were maybe scared that something could logistically go wrong. And then if there's no Internet one day, you're like, oh, no, Am I gonna disappoint Lisa? I saw in your body language a little bit of that, maybe a little bit of that.
- [48:40]
C
But it's that. It's not a fear, but it's that the isolation is not good for us at this time. That's kind of like, you know, am I making the right choice by going? By going, okay, I see that, but I'm committed. And do I think it's a good idea for her to go? If she wants to go and feels that it's the best for us, then yes.
- [49:22]
B
You can see in this part of the episode how much time Steve has spent showing up and trying to pour into the work in his marriage, and yet how often Steve has missed this one important point of actually being vulnerable about his own internal world and feelings. And interestingly, because Steve is married to a fearful avoidant who often yearns for depth and yearns for transparency and context and deeply wants to know their partner's inner world, the fact that that part is missing is gonna be a massive block to emotional intimacy in the relationship. And so I start to encourage Steve here to really open up about what he's feeling and to reframe what he's needing so that he can foster connection both ways. What's the trepidation and the. Let's. There's a couple things I see, and it's a great opportunity for you to share your inner world. I think that's a good thing for you to grow on. And so you had two points of trepidation in there that I noticed. The first one was around the calls, and I noticed this, like, you're leaning in, like, your body. I want to be there. I think you were actually quite happy that Lisa said she wanted a daily call. You felt good, but then you had the secondary response.
- [50:29]
C
Yes, if I don't. If I can't make the call or, you know, I don't have a connection to do that.
- [50:36]
B
And then you're scared that what happens next in the relationship.
- [50:38]
C
Yeah. That that would further isolate us.
- [50:40]
B
Yeah.
- [50:40]
C
And that's where the isolation comes in.
- [50:42]
B
Yeah. So. So there's this fear, like, oh, no. What if something goes wrong? So let's talk about that first part. So what you can do to Try to avoid those things. And also, I get the sense that if you don't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense that if you go and you're trying to make these phone calls and you're there at three in the morning, whatever it is, if you're there consistently trying them one day, there's no Internet, I think you're still going to feel quite loved. Like, okay, there's no Internet. There's room that doesn't have to be perfect.
- [51:08]
A
Right.
- [51:09]
B
And is there a part of you sometimes in the relationship that you fear that, like, oh, I'm going to do something and if it's imperfect, then I'm going to disappoint. And there's this kind of, like, subtle pressure you put on yourself in the
- [51:20]
C
background there that, yeah, that could be from past history and part of my own conditioning, personality or conditioning that I might disappoint and would cause degradation in our relationship rather than, you know, continuing to build forward together.
- [51:51]
B
So I'm scared of losing Lisa is really what is there. Yeah. And so it's interesting again, how common your themes are. You're like, I'm scared of the distance and then losing Steve. And then Steve's like, I'm scared of making a mistake and committing to every day of phone calls. A little bit of trepidation there, because I'm then scared that that will make me lose you. And a lot of you, both of you have these themes where you're scared of the same thing, similar. Which is very interesting. Who knew? So in those moments, you know, when we're just looking at the practicality of it, how can we plan to try to talk every day and what happens if we don't? Or what are the. You can share with me sort of the practical details of it.
- [52:35]
A
I think it's establishing a time, like, because of the time change, whether it's, you know, when you're getting ready for bed or getting up and leaving for the clinics in the morning, like something like that to make it, you know, when Internet's strong. I mean, we, we both know through experience that, you know, you try to do a video chat and after, like, two minutes, it, you know, it's like, not there anymore. But it's the. It's the effort. Effort is what makes the whole thing count.
- [53:13]
B
And so what I'm hearing from your side is I want effort, not perfection. Yes.
- [53:16]
C
Yeah, I like that.
- [53:18]
B
And I think that.
- [53:19]
C
Take that.
- [53:22]
B
And I think there's a part of you that kind of takes this perfection On a little bit sometimes, like, I have to not make it. What if I go in, the video call isn't good, and then am I disappointing? And I think it's just the act that you try. And even if it's short or the Internet connection fades, there's that keeping you connected and that effort is there. Is that fair?
- [53:39]
C
Yes. Yes.
- [53:40]
B
And if there's a challenge, because life, you're going to be on a mission trip and there's going to be a lot of things happening. Can you just send a text somehow check in, hey, can we move it to a couple hours from now or see what's going on or a quick FaceTime call or something like that?
- [53:56]
C
Yeah, I should be able to text that, have enough coverage for that.
- [54:01]
B
Yeah.
- [54:02]
C
But, yeah, I mean, I don't want to put any pressure on myself or expectations, but I imagine that you'll be getting calls or texts twice a day, at least in those times. So.
- [54:17]
B
Yeah, that's very nice. Okay.
- [54:20]
A
Pictures.
- [54:21]
B
And can I ask one thing before we go to the other? Because there's two other things in there that are interesting, but I don't want to put pressure, expectations on myself.
- [54:30]
C
On her. Oh, yeah. The expectations on her part for what?
- [54:35]
B
Oh, I see. Okay.
- [54:38]
C
Beautiful.
- [54:39]
B
Okay.
- [54:39]
C
So he said he's going to do this. You know, I'm expecting this, and if I can't come through with it, is that going to disappoint her?
- [54:49]
B
Good. That's what I was trying to get.
- [54:50]
C
That's what I was getting.
- [54:51]
A
Yeah.
- [54:52]
B
And so. So I just. I really noticed this theme and it's very common in sort of fada type dynamics, a little bit where the dismissive avoidant gets hesitant a little bit to commit fully to things and the relationship to it is to protect the relationship, which is very counterintuitive to what you would feel on the receiving end. You're like, is it a lack of care? Why is there not a commitment? We'll try our best and if it doesn't work, it's okay, but just commit. We'll agree to it. Right? And a lot of times, and I think it's a good thing to just surface in the dynamic. There will be probably many times in your history, I would imagine, where you have a little bit of trepidation about saying, yes, we're gonna talk every day because you're thinking and you're probably a man of your word. You try your best to be where you're like, if I say we talk every day, come hell or high water, we are gonna talk Every day. And. And then you're very afraid to disappoint, so then you're like, let me just manage the expectations early so I don't disappoint. So that Lisa knows I love her, and I don't disappoint her. But I bet there's been many times in your relationship on the receiving end where maybe you ask for something or you do bring something up, and it feels like he's kind of walking on eggshells or not fully in it, and you're like, what the heck? Am I not loved? Am I not important? And so I'm just. Because I'm noticing this right now, I'm curious if that's ever been a theme in the past.
- [56:05]
C
Yeah, eggshells, for sure.
- [56:07]
B
Okay. Yes.
- [56:10]
C
Through different conflicts and expectations, not expectations.
- [56:17]
A
Yeah.
- [56:18]
C
So.
- [56:19]
B
And if. So if that happens, can we talk about it differently? So can we say, hey, I want to. Like, this would be a good example. You guys have done such a beautiful job already talking through this one that I. It's hard to pull from here, but. But let's just say, as an example, if you hadn't, it might be, hey, I really want to make you feel loved. I really. I care about you. While I'm gone, I. I'm really thinking about our relationship and don't want to jeopardize it. I'm nervous that I'll let you down if something goes wrong. Can we commit to, like, the goal will be to talk every day for sure. And I'm truly going to try my best. But if there's, you know, an Internet issue or just a practical issue, will you let there be a little bit of margin for error? You know, can you validate me a little bit? Reassure me that if something does go wrong, you'll understand me?
- [57:04]
C
Is that very well said? Why didn't I think of that?
- [57:09]
B
But is that sort of something?
- [57:12]
C
Absolutely, yes.
- [57:14]
B
And I think for you, what happens is you probably see sometimes a tiny bit of hesitation on a full commitment around things you already have a story that you make it mean, like, oh, then am I not loved enough to be fully in? And then when something does go wrong, if there is a problem, it just salts that story. It salts on the wound. You're like, see, I knew I was gonna be unloved or abandoned, whereas have you just talked it out a little bit earlier? You've wet that whole thing to begin with.
- [57:41]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [57:42]
B
And correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I would also guess that if there is something wrong let's just say fast forward to Uganda and the Internet is a problem that you probably feel quite okay about it. If he says, honey, there's a problem with the Internet, but I love you, I'm thinking of you. And, you know, I wish we could talk more today and are just maybe reassuring a little bit of that. Would that really take that, that weight off?
- [58:09]
A
Yeah, that's where like, the text message coming through would just relieve that, you know, in the sense of knowing that he's thinking about me caring from a distance and that I'm still important enough to, you know, that time just to send those words of affirmation.
- [58:28]
B
And it's not about Steve being perfect.
- [58:32]
A
No, absolutely not.
- [58:33]
B
It's about knowing that you're important to Steve. Yes. Yeah. And I think that gives you a really important thing to remember, which is if you're a human and something ever goes wrong or you say you're going to do these things and then something goes wrong. It's not that. Oh, no. All these expectations and you have to be perfect or else it's that, oh, I just have to remind my wife that I really love her and she's important to her and then there won't be an issue. Yeah. And I just want to say that very specifically, too. I know I'm kind of pushing on this one a lot, but it's not just the call or text. It's not just, hey, think, you know, hey, Annie. Can't talk. Sorry.
- [59:09]
A
Yeah, it's.
- [59:10]
B
You actually need a little bit of reassurance that you're important, not just a neutral text message or a high level text message.
- [59:16]
A
Yeah. Don't hit the automated reply button.
- [59:21]
B
Yeah. Sorry, can't talk right now.
- [59:26]
C
Send a smiley face.
- [59:30]
B
So is that clear? Like, just that if something ever goes wrong, you probably have a lot more grace than you realize, because I noticed that you hold yourself to a kind of a perfectionistic standard, which is beautiful. Very respectable that you're trying to be a man of your word. And I think that's wonderful. But if you make a mistake, it's okay. But just follow up with a little bit of reassurance that at least is important. Yeah. And then the second thing you mentioned that you wanted to talk about was going through the North Carolina dynamic. So figuring out the future of where you're living and spending time and what that looks like. So do you want to just give me a little update first on what that is now and then what you each would like for it to be, and we'll work it through from there.
- [60:12]
A
Well, for me, it was agreeing to go, because I know it's important for Steve to be up there to help out with his mom and relieve his brother, who's there 24 7, kind of on call. But they've. They've done a better job this time recently where they've got care for her so they don't have to be in house all the time. And we talked about some of the living situations and how, you know, that dynamic has been in the past and where I didn't really feel comfortable and how we can move forward so that this trip up, it can be made a little more conducive to both of us being comfortable.
- [61:09]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful. And if you had to share from your end what you need for that, what do you need for it to. To look like in order to feel like the trip is conducive?
- [61:22]
A
Spending enough time together again to know that, you know, we are a priority, that the things that we want to do for each other and with each other. And. I think that's the most important to me is feeling, you know, that I'm there for, not just because we need to be together. In the past, it's a lot of times he would go and I wouldn't go because I didn't want to spend that length of time. And this time, it's, we. We want to stay together, we want to stay connected, and the distance isn't good. So I think that's the biggest thing that I need is just to know that I'm the priority.
- [62:23]
B
Beautiful. Okay, so I'm going to pause you right there. So I notice another great thing that you can work on in communication together is you're doing such a good job saying, I want to feel like a priority. And I bet you that if we said. We took you into separate rooms and I said, okay, tell me what that looks like to you. And then Steve, tell me what you think that looks like to Lisa. You're gonna have different answers. So Steve might be like, oh, spending 15 minutes each evening together, because as somebody who comes from a more avoidant background, that would be enough to probably make you feel like a priority. But your. Your bucket's gonna be different. You have a bigger bucket for connection. And it's typical, right, For a fearful, avoidant, dismissive, avoidant dynamic. And, I don't know, share those with you. But when I first met my husband, I was still a little fearful when he was dismissive, avoidant. So lots of themes to see an overlapping and what you'll see is that there's gonna be different ideas of what that looks like. So we have this theme, and it's called paint a picture. So when you sit there and you say, okay, I want to feel like a priority, great first step. You communicated the need. But unless you paint a picture, it will often get lost in translation. So what does that look like for you if you were to paint a picture?
- [63:36]
A
Well, it's taking a walk together in the morning so that we're doing something physical that is good for both of us. Dinner together, cooking together, hiking together. Those are the things that we like to do up there and that we like to do together so that we're. I mean, we don't have to like, if you want to go read a book, I don't need to be next to you while you're reading a book. You know, that sort of thing.
- [64:08]
B
But.
- [64:10]
A
And, and then I think just communicating like on a daily basis too is like, well, I need to go to moms for this amount of time or take care of some administration with the caregivers, or it's, it's understanding where the time is going to be spent.
- [64:30]
B
Ah, I hear that you want to plan for the day.
- [64:31]
A
Yeah.
- [64:32]
C
Yeah.
- [64:32]
B
Okay. Beautiful.
- [64:33]
C
Exactly what I was thinking.
- [64:34]
A
Yeah.
- [64:35]
B
So how's this? So each morning for half an hour, an hour, whatever sort of time you. You feel works, you take a walk or do something active together and communicate, make the plan for the day together at the same time. Is that something that. And will you feel fully fulfilled in that? Would you also want a date night one evening a week where you, you don't go somewhere? What. What else comes up in there?
- [64:57]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're, we actually were at one point very good at that.
- [65:03]
B
Yeah.
- [65:04]
A
But. And, and I think recreating that is important. You know, the date night, swapping. Who. Who plans it? Ah, good. Yeah. So it's. It's shared fun.
- [65:19]
B
Planning.
- [65:20]
A
Planning, yeah. What else? Projects. I mean, we used to garden together a lot when we had a house that had a big garden.
- [65:32]
B
Yeah.
- [65:33]
A
So I don't know if that's something we could do together too.
- [65:38]
C
Absolutely.
- [65:39]
A
Plant some tomatoes.
- [65:41]
B
Beautiful. And how do you feel? What is, what does that feel like for you?
- [65:46]
C
Well, I think it's, you know, planning again, just, you know, what's our calendar look like this week? You know, let's do this. We're going to Thursday night. Maybe we can do this. What do you think about that? Having that time in the morning? Like I said, the walking down the river is just you know, a great time. It's a lot cooler there than it is in Florida in June. And so get to enjoy that together and talk. We're better at that now. We tended to even isolate. She would listen to a podcast and I'm like, mad at her because she doesn't want to be with me. She's listened to her podcast. She thinks of that more highly than being with me sort of thing.
- [66:38]
B
Did you ever share that at the time? Okay, good. Okay, good. And what did you. Did you say, oh, you're listening to a pod. Remember we talked earlier? Hey, you don't want to be with me versus what you actually felt or what you made it mean about you and how there's such a big difference. I think this is a really good opportunity.
- [66:53]
C
So. So when we're together, like driving in the car and you're listening to a podcast or you're doing something, your phone, I don't know what you're doing, and I'm assuming it's something that's important to you, but it makes me feel unimportant when you're kind of isolating. It makes me feel like you're isolating and that you maybe don't want to share with me even though we can't be 24 7.
- [67:25]
A
Right, right.
- [67:26]
C
But it would make me feel better is if you could say, you know, I've got to get these emails out on something. So just sharing, kind of what I want to know what you're doing, but that my mind doesn't go crazy thinking about, she's just doing Facebook again or something like that.
- [67:49]
B
There you go. That was perfect.
- [67:51]
A
Yeah.
- [67:52]
B
Yeah. And did you ever know that. That in those moments, sometimes he felt unimportant?
- [67:56]
A
Well, we've, we have talked about it before. I mean, we've like some. This happened, I think, a year and a half or two years ago when we were on our way to church together and I was listening to something in my earpiece while he was driving, and I could tell. And then he got irritated and brought it up and said, how about that? Yeah, he did bring it up. Yeah. He's like, you know, it bothers me that, you know, we're in the car and we've only got this, you know, 15 minute ride and you're, you're listening like, I'm not important and you're just avoiding talking and, and, and I was kind of like, yeah, you're right.
- [68:41]
B
And also it's beautiful that you share because then you get to be seen. Right. And, and I feel like, sometimes maybe in your habits you might just go, okay, well, I feel unimportant, so I'm going to close. And so it's a beautiful example of, like, opening instead of closing and actually being able to bring that up and share that, which is really powerful.
- [69:00]
A
Yeah.
- [69:01]
C
I just need to share my feelings more and my needs in that.
- [69:08]
B
And both of you will stop. There's no need to drift at all. If you just in any moment, there's a conflict. You both share your feelings and share your needs. And you already, like to be honest, you've already. You guys are like the easiest couple I ever worked with because you're already so respect respectful of each other in it. There's not all of this, like, frustration and resentment and can't hear each other. There's such a deep willingness on both of your ends to hear each other and to want to know each other and to want to understand each other, which is honestly the hardest part of the whole thing. So, like 75% of the work is done. It's just in those moments of conflicts, if you catch testing, okay, I didn't share something, or in those moments, if you feel yourself pulling away, well, maybe I didn't share something. And so doing that will really help
- [69:51]
C
a comfort recognizing that.
- [69:54]
B
Yeah. Because just like Lisa's pattern sometimes is testing well, what's. What's yours? Yours is to maybe drift a little bit. And so if you see yourself distancing, it's a good checkpoint to go. Is there something I felt that I didn't say, Is there something I need to share that's on my heart or ask for in the relationship and that will keep. Every time you could drift, every, you know, negative opportunity to drift becomes an opportunity for more closeness, resolution.
- [70:18]
C
Yeah. And that's what, you know, we both desire that deeply to take those opportunities to know and love each other more.
- [70:32]
B
Beautiful. So going back to North Carolina, so what comes up from your end? Because you've shared really nicely your needs. And do you have any concerns about North Carolina and the dynamic? Because I think that was something that you originally.
- [70:45]
C
More of what maybe her expectations would be and having that understanding beforehand that, you know. So we've talked about it. We're going to do two months, and I've already let my family know that, you know, we'll be there June and July. You want to take your vacation, we'll be there. You can count on us for that. But after that, she's the priority, and our relationship is the priority. I don't know what's going to be after that?
- [71:15]
B
Yeah, yeah. So can we dig into the expectation piece? Okay, so you say the expectation of
- [71:23]
C
what her expectations are.
- [71:24]
B
Yeah, yeah. Of you. And let's go into that. So what comes up for you in that moment? Is it the same repeat theme? Like what do you make it mean when you have a little bit of fear of expectation?
- [71:38]
C
It's probably because when we were tried to get together actually before we divorced a couple years ago, whenever it was. Yeah. We went to a counselor and we did. She would expect to get a hug when her mom went by when she was not feeling and she didn't get that. So she kept so fast forward to us. She would expect me to be romantic and you know, plan this great date. And I didn't come through with that. So there was a disappointment. And so that's where that you're scared. It's in my head that, you know, what are her expectations for this? Am I going to be able to. Will we be able to talk about it? Will I be able to meet those expectations? You know, there's an opportunity in there, but will we be able to really share about that?
- [72:48]
B
And what's your big fear under what's your worst case scenario? That I let her down and then
- [72:52]
C
she leaves, that she wouldn't share that I didn't meet her expectations. And we go back into a similar pattern, what we had before and then what then we would be distancing and
- [73:10]
B
isolating again and then I maybe lose her or so see how it all trickles down into this. It makes sense why there's a little bit of trepidation. Oh no, what if. And one thing that you should know and try to remember for forever, an expectation is just a need that hasn't been communicated. So anytime there's an expectation, it's just there's a need that wasn't communicated. And so you can even think of expectation, ideally in a relationship as something that's just off the table.
- [73:36]
C
Just get rid of that word and think of it as.
- [73:39]
B
Or if you feel like, am I not meeting Lisa's expectations? You're probably not asking Lisa about her needs.
- [73:45]
C
Right? That's what I mean. Yeah.
- [73:46]
B
Or if you feel like an expectation wasn't unmet, you probably didn't communicate something you needed. And so I always think of whenever you have an expectation, when we converted into a need, like if you're concerned one day, let's say it's, you're in North Carolina, it's a Tuesday morning, you are concerned. Am I disappointing Lisa's expectations. Really great strategy that just keeps everything so simple is to go to Lisa and say, hey, do you feel like your needs are being met? Is there anything you want to talk about? Are we good with when it comes to the needs right now? Is there anything we want to plan to do? And that way, that fear of not meeting expectations, anytime you feel it at all, you just go ask the question and it gets absolved in that moment. Does that make sense?
- [74:27]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [74:28]
C
Yeah. Just reframing the thought and the question. Yeah.
- [74:32]
B
Yeah. And knowing that it's just an action. And I just go and I ask. Right. And it makes things so much more simple. And for you, if you ever feel like an expectation is not met, then what becomes your step of action?
- [74:45]
A
Oh, I have to let him know that I need you to do this or that. Whatever it may be that. More foot rubs. I don't know exactly, but that's exactly right.
- [74:58]
C
Right.
- [74:58]
B
It's just going to turn into sharing what my need is there. And so. And you have a. If I don't meet the expectation, then we distance. And then is it I'm not good enough again? That comes up or what's your story?
- [75:14]
C
No, it's like we move into isolation
- [75:18]
B
again and I lose her and I'm a baby.
- [75:20]
C
And then recreate the same or repeat the same scenarios and behaviors we did before, which further isolate.
- [75:31]
B
And then what do you make that mean about yourself? I'm not good enough. I am abandoned. I'm unloved. I'm alone.
- [75:40]
C
I don't think of it as myself. It's more us.
- [75:46]
B
But it's interesting because whatever is us, we only want to change the external world, meaning our relationship to someone else or because we're trying to change how it makes us feel on the inside. So you want to change the world because you want to change how the world makes you feel, or you want to change the situation with your partner because of how it makes you feel. So there actually be an I am.
- [76:05]
C
So it would be by her voicing us, having the conversations, and you voicing your needs. It would make me feel more loved because you're willing to share with me how you feel or what your needs are. And I don't have to wonder if I'm meeting those needs or expectations or wonder why you're not sharing with me. What did I do wrong? That maybe I should have known better. But
- [76:42]
B
that's beautiful. And there's actually. I actually hear that if I do disappoint Lisa and then we drift and then there's this distance between us, and we're in those same old patterns that then I'm actually scared of losing Lisa, and then internally maybe feeling unloved again. And are you comfortable sharing a little bit of reassurance that you do love Steve?
- [77:02]
A
I do love you very, very much. And I want us to not get back to any of these bad or old habits or old patterns and that we can look at each other and share from our hearts and even the hurts and the things that we need from each other so that the smiles stay consistent like they have been.
- [77:32]
C
Amen.
- [77:33]
A
Amen.
- [77:37]
B
So I'll share with you just a framework then to. We'll do two frameworks. So there's two things that happen each time. There's a conflict. There's an internal conflict first, which is what we make the situation mean. So, oh, if we do drift, then maybe I'll lose Lisa and I'll be unloved. Or, oh, if I don't hear from Steve while he's gone, then I must not be important. Okay, so these are called core wounds, which, you know, and we can rewire them. Okay, so. So there's actually a process of rewiring them. And I'm not sure if you've dug into some of this already, but. But essentially, how we obtain core wounds to begin with is repetition and emotion of instances in past experiences that made us feel that way about ourselves. And oftentimes it's all the way back when we're young and we can't process things differently. So we can take things like as small as having critical parents who maybe they're trying to be critical to prepare you for the world or, you know, boost you. We can make that meal that I'm unworthy or I'm not good enough. And then we store that even though our parents were trying to help us. And then we keep that forever until we're able to go in and rewire it. It'll stay with us our entire life. And, you know, it can be things like feeling unimportant in past experiences, growing up, or unloved at times, growing up. And you may not have ever consciously recognized it, but those are the conclusions we keep jumping to. So we have three steps to actually rewire. And I actually think this would be a wonderful preface for both of you to do as a habit together, and you can do it with each other. So you take the story or the wound, and step one is you find its opposite. Now, this would be very simple. I am unloved. I am loved or Worthy of love. I'm abandoned. I'm worthy of connection. I am not important. I am important. And this is where I actually don't really believe in affirmations very much. A lot of people love to say, do affirmations, but affirmations are not where we host the wounds. The affirmations language only reaches the conscious mind. So I give this analogy a lot. Like if I were to ever say to you, okay, whatever you do, do not think of a pink elephant. Like, you probably flash an image of a pink elephant. So your conscious mind hears, do not. But your subconscious speaks in emotions and images. Now, nobody ever wakes up and consciously says, oh, I'm gonna tell myself all day long that I'm not important and see how I feel. Or I'm gonna tell myself I'm unloved and see how that goes. Nobody's consciously choosing that.
- [79:58]
A
No.
- [79:58]
B
Right. So the problem exists at the subconscious level of mind, which means to change it, we have to go to the subconscious level of mind and speak to that aspect of ourselves there. So we've already established the conscious mind doesn't speak language. It speaks in emotions and images. So we have to speak in emotions and images to the opposite of the wound. So, for example, I am not important. I am important. Here's evidence of how I know that Steve sees me as important. And evidence is just memory. It's the same thing. And what's interesting about memory is all memories are just a container for emotions and images. If you go recall old childhood memories or favorite memories from, you know, being in high school, you see your friends after years, decades of not seeing them, and you tell an old story. You see people, they. They laugh or they smile or, you know, and they see those images in their mind as they're telling the story, right? And so what we're doing is, in step two, we're going to give a lot of evidence or memories of how we were important, how we are important to Steve, or how we are loved by Lisa, and specific, tangible memories. And now that memory is landing at the subconscious level. So ideally, we want to come up with 10. 10 times that you felt loved by Lisa, 10 times that you felt important to Steve. And we want to do it partially in the relationship, but partially on our own, too, right? So how I'm important anyways.
- [81:23]
A
So it's not like us sitting next to each other and going through the ten things.
- [81:26]
B
Or. Well, I might make you guys do this, okay? Or encourage you guys to do that, but you would come up with them, you know, together. But but about in the relationship and as a whole. So, for example, you might say, I know I'm important to Steve because he does these three, four things. Here's three or four memories. I know that I'm important to other people in my life, like my son and other people who I cherish, friendships, things like this. Now you've got some more memories. And also, I am important as a human being because so now we have this whole, you know, 10 pieces of memory that you are important. And then you're gonna do the same thing, which is actually gonna be really good for Unloved. It's a big, deep one. And so you're gonna say, okay, I know I'm loved by Lisa because of these things. I know I'm worthy of love as a person because of these things, these characteristics about myself, who I truly am, that makes me worthy of love as a human being. And other people in my life that love me. So perhaps my mother, perhaps my brother, you know, anybody else who's a meaningful figure in your life. And ideally, we're coming up with 10. Okay. And then our third step is it doesn't. It'd be nice if we could just do it once, and that was it. But our third step is research shows that if we're at a sort of suggestible state, meaning when our brain is producing more alpha brain waves exactly the first hour that we wake up, last hour before bed, if we are rehashing these things and saying them out loud. So maybe you've written them down and you're reading them, or you've recorded yourself saying them out loud and you're listening back. We really want to sink into the images and the emotions of it, and we're getting the images and emotions. It's reaching the subconscious, and it's actually building. It's firing and wiring new neural networks in our brain over and over. Oh, okay. Research shows about 21 days in a suggestible state. As long as we're really feeling about it, we can't just intellectualize it or it gets stuck. That's actually what's going to rewire these wounds. And you're already doing such a beautiful job of communicating through them and honoring them and opening up about them and having so much respect for each other around them. But, like, imagine that you just don't even have to feel them in the first place and that you don't jump to those conclusions, and you get to stay 10 steps ahead of even having to fall into that kind of conflict. So I would highly recommend that together you work on unimportant. Okay. And I'll put this as your sort of your prescription homework. So 10, and I'll send this as follow up. But 10 ways that you know that you're important to yourself, to people in your life, to Steve. And then as a ritual together, you listen back to one another's. So, you know, often what we'll see is couples might listen back and you'll listen to yours first while Steve is there. And Steve can say, and you're important to me because of this and because of this. So you get that extra just love and support that's really the opposite of that wound. And then we flip around and then you take time to hear yours of why you're worthy of love and how you are loved already and who loves you and what that looks like. And then Lisa gets to jump on there and say, oh, and I love this about you. And I love this about you. And it really. When you're always hearing the opposite from your partner this way as well, it's so difficult to even fall into the trap. Because when you just finish every day hearing that you're so important for all these reasons, then when you know there's a mistake or something happens.
- [84:34]
A
Yeah.
- [84:35]
B
It's almost impossible to jump to those conclusions. So it's a great practice to do together if you're open to that. And. Yeah. Okay.
- [84:41]
C
Beautiful.
- [84:42]
B
And the second thing is I'll just say constantly practicing the conflict communication. So you're doing a beautiful job. But anytime there's this distance or this pain where you might have gone in different directions, instead being able to say, hey, here's what's coming up for me. Here's what I'm making this mean. Here's what I need. Yeah, I know. Here's what's coming up for me. Here's what I'm making this mean about me or in this situation. And here's what I need. And you've done such a beautiful job. It was almost just so perfectly seamless when. When you shared. But knowing, okay, I feel unimportant and I need some validation or I need some reassurance when you're in Uganda to check in or hey, I feel a little bit unloved. I need to know that. That you love me in this situation. And as you're working through that and doing the rewiring, you're gonna see that a lot of things that even could be problems. Not only you get so good at working at. So there's no need to distance because you have the Tools, but also the likelihood that a problem or wound will even come up even becomes very small as you work through each of the wounds.
- [85:39]
A
Yeah.
- [85:40]
B
How does that sound?
- [85:41]
C
Fabulous. Yeah. Like the idea and look forward to applying it.
- [85:46]
B
So beautiful. Now, if you enjoyed those two key takeaways from both Lisa and Steve, I want you to know that if you want to follow along some of those same steps, I have two recommendations for you, both of which I'll link below. If you yourself want to go through your own rewiring process by first understanding what core wounds show up for you and then how to actually recondition them across that 21 day cycle, we have our emotional Mastery and belief reprogramming course, which helps you understand your own subconscious mind and patterns, Understand exactly the core wounds that are going to keep coming up in your life and relationships, and that very simple system, along with a few other interesting ones, if you want to try them out. For how to recondition your subconscious mind and actually build new neural networks in your brain on top of that, if you want to dive into the communication of your needs a little bit better, we also have the needs course, and you can check them both out with links down below in the description. Well, you guys are a lovely, beautiful, incredible couple, and it's really been an honor to sit with both of you today. And I just. I thank you so much for your vulnerability and for your shares, and I think, just like, you know, everything that you do together is. Is so powerful to see. So thank you for being here and I really enjoyed sitting and getting to know you both in a lot more detail here.
- [86:59]
C
Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. And, you know, I give credit to God because he had work he needed to do on both of our lives the last couple years, and. And that's why we're at the stage now where we can try, not only try, but be able to understand each other more better and work with some of the tools. Where before, you know, we weren't ready, we were so isolated. But now you've given us some tools and we're excited to use them.
- [87:41]
B
Beautiful. Thank you so much.
- [87:42]
A
Thank you. Taste.
- [87:44]
B
If you want to hear more about Lisa and Steve's backstory, you can also click the link below to check out their individual episodes where they share a lot about their individual journeys to getting here.