B (2:58)

Yeah, for sure. If my face turns the same color as my shirt just because this is a racy topic for a da. But no, it's an important one. And I think a lot of partners of DAs will recognize some of these things, and hopefully, you know, the light bulb will go off and be like, oh, okay, like, now I understand why they do that. Because obviously, if you're coming from, you know, an anxious side of things, there's going to be some behaviors and things that you notice with intimacy that you're like, what's going on here? This is not how I usually encounter sex and go about it. So we're going to try to dispel some of the myths.

A (3:36)

Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, it's so important to recognize, too. Like, in relationships, there's four pillars of connection. So we have our romantic pillar of connection. You have your mental pillar of connection, your emotional pillar of connection. We have our physical pillar of connection, which can also be, like, physical space, proximity, things like that. But obviously includes sex, intimacy, and affection. And. And when we look at this, it's like, this is a big part of relationships. It's a pillar of how we connect with other people. And so if we don't unpack this and don't answer some of these questions, I feel like we're doing a bit of a disservice. So I'm really glad that we're taking the time to dive into this.

B (4:08)

Yeah, for sure. So just to start off, like, for da, sex is more of, like, a physical. More of a physical exchange rather than, like, an emotional, intimate exchange. So that's why you might see, like, da's able to have. Seem to be able to have casual sex so easily and, like, have multiple partners or, you know, maybe they're intimate with someone this week. And then next week there was someone else. And they don't seem to catch sort of romantic feelings as easily. There's not this like deep bonding with the other person. So like they enjoy the physical pleasure of sex. And so that's why sort of switching sounds kind of bad but like switching one body for another is not such a big deal because if you're just in feeling something physically, you're just looking for physical pleasure, you're not getting that attachment, you're not getting that like closeness, that, that oxytocin, that bonding sort of with the other person. So casual sex can be. Yeah, again like it's, it's physical. You're, you're enjoying yourself, you're getting awesome feelings, you're getting, you know, excitement. All these neurochemicals are lighting up. But there's not necessarily that like closeness of like, wow, I feel really connected to this person. I feel really, I see this person, they see me. It's just more like strictly a physical act. Yeah, go if you want.

A (5:35)

Can I add a couple things? Okay, so there's so much to say already. So I, I want to note a couple quick things too. So I would say generally from, from working with dismissive war in private practice and just spending a lot of time talking to dismissive avoidance over the last plus more than a decade, I would say a couple of things. There's also a breed of dismissive avoidance. So let's call it like, I would say kind of like 60, 40 or 70, 30. That smaller percentage being a, let's say genre of dismissive avoidance who really consider themselves and this is like a funny term, but this is literally dismissive avoidant. That said that this to me, who was a client at one point, a sapiosexual, I think. Is that. Was that even what the term is called? I should probably look it up. And really what that meant is that they felt like they had to have an intellectual connection to somebody before having like any sort of physical connection. So they felt like not only. So yeah, if you look up the term, a term describing someone who is sexually attracted to intelligence and others drawn to somebody's intellect and the ability to engage in stimulating conversations. Savio sexuals may prioritize intelligence as a key quality in a partner, making it a primary factor in their attraction. And I actually saw a good chunk of dismissive avoidance who like maybe that 30, 40% who would be like actually kind of not interested in connecting physically too early and almost moving the exact opposite direction where they felt like they really needed to know Somebody and felt like they could intellectually connect and bond with them before they could physically have intimacy. Almost in a similar way to how it's quite common for fearful avoidance to be like, I need an emotional connection before intimacy. So I do want to note that for anybody who's seen that because that, that can be a pretty common theme. But then to your point, the rest of the dismissible avoidance, that that sort of larger majority definitely fall into exactly the space that you're just talking about. And then the other thing is that this is one of the very rare occasions that I would actually talk because around sex and intimacy it's different than basically every other aspect of a relationship. I would separate out men and women. So a lot of the, the sort of research into neurochemistry and intimacy and bonding shows that for women of basically all attachment styles, it doesn't focus too much on specific attachment cells but it on their themes and patterns. And you can kind of read between the lines there. But women, they tend to, when they have sex and intimacy, including under my understanding that dismissive avoidant women, they tend to more easily produce oxytocin around like the first time they're going to have sex with somebody. So even if somebody's having like a one night stand, there still is enormous amounts of oxytocin production compared to men. And men, they tend to actually produce, they're sort of one of their, they have two neurochemicals that essentially make them more invested in long term sex and intimacy. One is of course oxytocin, the bonding neurochemical like you mentioned. The other is vasopressin. And it really makes a man want to protect a woman and be her sort of caretaker and protector. And it's a lot to do with like pair bonding. And so you won't actually see, you'll see with men they produce more oxytocin and vasopressin if they don't have sex with somebody right away. So if they end up entering into intimacy with somebody who they build an oxytocin and sort of vasopressin connection with meaning an intellectual and emotional connection with for weeks at a time, if there's a longer sort of Runway, then eventually they'll develop that. And then when they do eventually have sex with the person, then they will produce more oxytocin during and after sex than had it been on a one night stand. So I think those are like important pieces in there as well. And of course that would definitely affect dismiss avoidant men in that way. And I think it really makes it a clear cut argument for like, hey, if somebody is interested in a longer term relationship with a dismissive avoidant male, like having sex too early is probably going to really affect that relationship and not so great of a way because you're literally decreasing the chances that that man is going to produce oxytocin and vasopressin with you if it's too early of that intimacy or sexual connection.

B (9:38)

That's super interesting. I actually didn't know that at all. And I was actually wondering like, why PAs don't get that oxytocin closeness kind of like right away, like similar, like in the past, you know, if I've had experience with, with some of the opposite sex, they seem to be more, more attached and more like wanting to become closer faster. And for me I was kind of like, like wanted space, kind of like I wanted to sort of have that distance. And I didn't feel that like close attachment or necessity to like see them all the time. Okay. Even dating other people was on the table. I was like, fine with, okay, like, you know, I could date multiple people and it didn't seem to be a big deal.

A (10:26)

And so can I ask a question because I know our listeners are going to be like, tell me the dismissive avoidant piece. So, so did you ever have an experience where you dated somebody for a long time, didn't sleep with them, connected with them like in that way first, and then when you did eventually sleep with them, did you notice a difference in, oh, like I have this like pre established connection with this person and it was probably romantic. Like you would have had to have feelings, you know what I mean? It's not like your neighbor who you've known for a long time and you happen to whatever. But like, but like that kind of dynamic where you had something there first. Did you see a difference in how you felt around or after sex if there was a longer Runway?

B (11:04)

Yeah, 100 and even like sex itself was like 8500% more satisfying and like just amazing feeling all around when you get to know the person and, and understand them as a person and they see you, you see them and it's just so much more, there's just so much more to it. Before, what I was doing was very empty and kind of just like maybe the safe way of just, you know, having fun and not really having to like have all this responsibility, feel, have all this, you know, be responsible for someone else, be emotionally caring with someone else. It was just a very quick way to have fun, get Some physical, physical needs met but then not have to sort of carry the burden of that other stuff, which at the time was like a burden. It was like scary.

A (11:59)

Yeah.

B (12:00)

But as you were just talking about, when you do get to know someone, when you do start to care about someone, when you care about their well being and you just take way more of a, of a heart based interest in someone. Intimacy, like a byproduct of that is intimacy is just, it takes on a whole, completely whole different dynamic. So you can, I believe you could either have those like, I guess none is either right or wrong. If you want to like just sleep with people or you're in that stage of life, it can be fun. But I just think it's a million times more rewarding and gratifying and yeah, there's just a million more positives to having intimacy with someone that you like really build and connect with.

A (12:50)

Yeah. So I love that answer because we have probably so many people listening to this being like, wait, you know what? So, so I can like hear in the ether the listeners questions, what if they've already slept with somebody early? That's dismissive, avoidant, like, and I want to come back to that because I know people will be wondering that if they're in that situation. But I also just want to say to your point there, like it's an individual process. Mike and I are not sitting here trying to like lecture people on like how you should run your sex life, but just from like a purely neurochemical perspective and hearing the inside scoop from like somebody who was dismissive, avoidant. There is a difference and you know it's going to be that way. So I think that's important to note. Of course we also did mention it is slightly different for women. Women, even if they're dismissive, avoidant, they're going to still have more oxytocin around sex and intimacy. So you can keep those differences in mind while we go through talking about dismissive avoidance here today. And the other thing is, you know, when somebody is looking at that, that sort of connection piece, if we want to come back here for a second, what would you say? Let's say somebody is, let's say somebody's anxiously attached. Okay. And they slept with somebody and it was early on and maybe they even felt this like pressure like oh, that will make me be liked or, or things like that. You know, maybe they were seeing somebody for a shorter period of time and they slept with them. Do you think there's any coming back from that? So do you Think that if you're dismiss of avoidant and that happens and I'll just share some, some things I saw over the years from client practice afterwards. But in that particular case, what would you say could turn things around so that you could still build a romantic or, or you know, emotional connection beyond just sex and intimacy there if somebody slept with you earlier on in the relationship dynamic.

B (14:35)

Yeah, it's such a tough one because it's, you know, it's, it is a little hard to put the, the, the GE back in the bottle after that's already happened. And then sometimes there's like the expectation of like, oh, well, you know, when we get together we generally doing.

A (14:51)

Yeah.

B (14:52)

Intimacy. Yeah. So to like to stop that for maybe some people would be like, hey, what's going on here? But I think if you explain to someone, like, you know, I really care about you and think you're amazing and I want to make sure this relationship is not just based on, on physical sex. Like, I'd like to get to know you more and hopefully you want to get to know me a bit more and just like focus on not saying like, you never do it again or like never take like six months to like, not. But I would just propose the other person like, hey, like, can we just do some fun things outside of, outside of the bedroom, like just to get to know each other.

A (15:33)

Yeah.

B (15:34)

And like do some intimacy building exercises or like getting to know you type exercises. Because I think the more that the person, the more that you guys hang out with each other, the more obviously you get to know each other. And I know for me, like the more someone sees me and especially back then when I was really insecure, like worried about feeling defective or looking defective, the more that somebody's spending time with me and I can see, like, hey, they're, they like me. Like regardless of, you know, who I am or what I do, it's more so like this person's wants to see me and understand me and like take, take an interest in me and thinks I'm, thinks I'm great. So, you know, I think it would just be a really positive thing for like somebody to propose their partner, like, hey, let's take a step back. Like, doesn't mean we don't have to ever have intimacy again. But I think we should, you know, maybe go on hikes or like go for dinner and, and prioritize like quality and depth of conversation over like just doing, you know, watching a movie or like surface level stuff. So I think it's possible I don't know if I've ever experienced it myself, but all I know is, like, taking breaks is actually super healthy. I think it is good to, like, take breaks from intimacy and then focus on other areas of the relationship. That's always a good thing.

A (17:05)

So I think that's a great answer. That's actually what I would basically say based on, like, when I would see this happen with clients. So in my practice, if I ever saw somebody start off on this foot and then, like, sort of retreat and try to reestablish the connection in a relationship with a dismissive avoidant, it was usually because a few key things were happening. And I like to, again, like, break this down by relationship pillars. So, like, you have your romantic pillar, you have your emotional, your mental, and then your physical. And if you went, like, really into connecting in the physical pillar before you establish anything else, of course that's gonna affect what we just talked about, like the vasopressin, oxytocin, particularly with dismissive avoidant men. But if instead you're like, okay, we've already connected in the physical pillar, I'm gonna make an effort. The places that you would wanna connect with a DA around are intellectual and then emotional. Usually if there's. You go too far into emotional without there being a sound intellect, the vast majority of days they're going to be like, oh, like. And it's interesting because, you know, some dismissive avoidance are, like, they think that, like. Like, you think of people in, like, the PDS community, like, some dismissive avoidance. And I think of some of them who I'm thinking of, like, women and things too. But they. Even though they're having emotionally connected conversations, because maybe they're about, like, personal growth, they're getting, like, an intellectual need met from, like, learning and talking about things that they're interested in. And dismissible avoidance can become more emotionally available if their first is this, like, thing that you bond over intellectually. So it could be a shared interest. Maybe you both like personal growth. Maybe you both like a specific hobby. Maybe you both, like, you know, some sort of, like, philosophy that you study or, like, it could be anything. But if you can find that kind of common ground with a dismissive avoidant in that way intellectually, and then you're kind of emotionally engaged about it and sharing from there, that kind of becomes a stepping stone into bridging more of that emotional connection. And exactly, to Mike's point, like, I would say what you want to do is be able to say, okay, let's not just, like, hang out and stay and like tell the person that you're seeing, hey, I want to do things other than just like stand in like a Netflix and chill or whatever you're saying you're doing. Like, no, say, hey, I want to do these things, I want to have these conversations. I think that still needs to be a vetting process for the person who's trying to navigate that with an avoidant. Like you need to make sure that your needs are getting met too, that you feel emotionally connected, that you feel like there's common interest and that you really get along. But don't be afraid to like pause one pillar of connection to invest more in the other pillars. Because truly sound relationships over time generally have all four pillars of connection taken care of, nurtured, you know, and growing and progressing quite frequently.

B (19:44)

Yeah, for sure. And like, obviously we're laying out the scenario if someone's already been intimate with someone and they're wanting to sort of step back and build the other areas, I'll just say for anybody who hasn't or in the future or they're not dating and they will be dating in the future, like delay having sex for as long as possible. This is my advice. I really think muddies the waters. It makes you, it, it fast forwards a connection that needs time to sort of mature and grow and to vet and to see like, is this the person that's for me or not? Because like, you know, a lot of red flags can happen whatnot. But if you're already hooked on sort of the oxytocin and the amazing feelings and like, wow, you feel so good physically from being with this person, you know, you might be stuck with a person who's, it's not going to work long term, it's eventually going to fizzle out or it's eventually, you know, some of the things that you're not speaking up about are going to come out. Like for me, I just think you're not going to be having sex with your partner all the time in a long term relationship. So what really has to be there is that foundation of being able to like be friends, like enjoy each other's company, enjoy shared activities like hanging out with the person as if you're hanging out with like a best friend. So I think the earlier you can get on that connection vibe where you guys are like enjoying each other's company, enjoying the conversation, enjoying seeing if you're on the same page for a lot of things, then when you introduce sex, that's just like charity on the top. Like that's really just gonna complete what was already a good foundation to be like, okay, now let's add this, this element to bring us even closer. But I've just seen too many times where people have sex too early and then they think like, oh my God, this is the one. And they're like really excited and you know, a few months down the road

A (21:47)

they're now in the power struggle stage of the relationship.

B (21:49)

Or yeah, you sort of like, I guess everything's like learning and not a waste of time, but just so much time can be wasted because having sex too early really just completely distorted and like, you know, made it so it's hard to see if this is like the right person for you to, to commit to long term. So I would just say, and I don't know if you agree with that too or that, you know, you that too.

A (22:14)

I know a lot of people are going to hate on that a little bit because some people are like in a different sort of sphere of their relationship to sex. But I think that that's like at the end of the day, that's where I see just like statistically the most successful relationships, people having the most peace, making sounder decisions, longer lasting relationships, reporting being more fulfilled in those longer lasting relationships. Like the facts are there, but like, listen, there's I. At the end of the day, every person's unique and different. I think each person has a unique relationship to intimacy based on their own conditioning. And I think as long as somebody's truly taking themselves into consideration in the process and really like, okay, what is true for me, what are my true needs, what am I looking for at this point in my life? As long as there's an authentic relationship to how you consider it, to me, that's what matters the most. So that's what I would say for each unique person. For sure. If you are somebody who wants to do a much deeper dive into understanding intimacy as a whole between different attachment styles, you can actually dive in and check out for free and keep for life. It's literally a gift right now, a giveaway. The attachment style is an intimacy course and it covers like what makes people feel emotionally close, physically close in regards to intimacy and sex, but also just like the different types of intimacy and what the needs are of each attachment style, what the fears are, what the things that will push people away are, what the boundaries are, both their unhealthy and healthy patterns, how to plant the healthy ones and make sure you overcome the unhealthy ones for you, or wanting to know Some this about somebody else. And again, you can check that out using the link down below fully for free. You keep it for life. So it's a gift. It's a giveaway. We're just doing this for a limited time, but it's down there below. Now, I want to switch gears here for a second because this is gonna be another really burning question. Okay.

B (23:51)

Yeah.

A (23:51)

This is, like, what I know people are going to be like, ah, they're. They're probably listening to this episode for this reason. Somebody's eating a dismissive voidant. Let's say it's an anxious attachment style. They've been dating them for, you know, a year and a half. And, like, things around sex and intimacy were pretty, like, calm, stable, normal. Like, everything was good. And then, like, at around a year and a half, suddenly the dismissal wind pulls away around intimacy, and there's this kind of, like, disconnect taking place. And I know a lot of people take this to heart. I would see this time and time again. These are questions we get all the time sent to us. Like, what happened? Are they cheating? Are they in another relationship with somebody else? Do they have another secret life? Do they have this huge fear of intimacy as a whole? Like, what happened? And I think that there, you know, is a really good set of reasons as to what's happening. But I want to just start by you, like, sharing some of your experience or, like, what you've seen there and what you think is going on. So people have that, like, inside scoop.

B (24:52)

Yeah, this is what I believe. And it's going back to what I mentioned in the beginning. Like, if you're just going at it from, like, a purely physical standpoint, and you haven't got to, like, no, you're not. You're not having sex with the person because you love them, you care for them, you have unconditional love. You have this desire to, like, take care of them and be with them. And you might have all those things still. But I just believe, as a da, you haven't. You're still in that protection mode, and you haven't fully, like, let someone in. So when you're just removing all of those sort of emotional and deeply connective sort of components off the table, at the end of the day, it's just a physical act. So if you imagine when you're having something new, it's exciting, it's fun, you know, you get a new car, you're just like, this is amazing. Like, I love it. Like, I want to go on my new car a Lot like, I want to enjoy it. And then as time goes on, it's like, okay, it's still, still nice, but it's just a car. And then as time goes on, you're just sort of like, not too excited by it. Like, you've just been.

A (26:00)

You've adapted to it. It's like you just get in your car, you don't think about it anymore.

B (26:03)

It just takes you from point A to point B because you never really. You don't have that emotional investment into it. You don't have that, like, deep, like, caring for that other person. I'm talking about a person now, not a car, but like, yeah, and like I said, I just believe the dopamine and the serotonin and all those like chemicals that just make you feel amazing, especially early on, that's just going to wear off. And then like, it's not going to be as exciting and it's going to be kind of just like boring. And then it's kind of like, take it or leave it. And then you might look at other things and be like, oh, that looks

A (26:40)

okay, you're scaring everybody listening. So hold on, let's. There's so many poor anxious attachment cells that are probably panicking right now. So wait, let's break it down a little bit more because. But, but you're being honest, right? And, and I appreciate that. So let me break it down so people don't hear it so personally, because I just know anxious attachment styles especially might like, take that really, really to heart, even though, like, I so 100 million percent appreciate your honesty. So when we have novelty, okay, so. So when we have novelty, we have increased dopamine, and that's a motivation neurochemical. And so when there's that, that novelty piece, where to exactly Mike's point. You get the new car. Okay. There's like intimacy with a new person. Just neurochemically there's like more novelty and so there's more dopamine as a result. And so there's gonna be that to invest and like, be there and be present and like, try again and do these things. Just like you want to go in your car and drive it around. Like it's. It's a great analogy. And I agree. When that fades off, it's not that somebody's not good enough, not lovable, not interesting enough to echo what Mike's saying. What he's saying is that the dopamine fades away. The novelty needs are not as novel anymore. And that's just how human beings are Always like this. We adapt. Even if we love somebody, we go through different stages of a relationship largely because of this. And what ends up happening is then if we didn't build the emotional bond, there wasn't already this preexisting, like, deeper connection. The dismissive wood hasn't engaged in the other pillars of connection in the same way or nearly as much, then you lose the novelty and you don't have something filling it in properly. So that's where it's like, you want to make sure you're engaging the other pillars of connection. Because if you're just, you know, in the physical pillar and you haven't built intellectual connection, emotional connection, romantic connection, then of course, there becomes this emptiness. And that's where you see it retreat. I hope it's okay that I interrupted you and changed that. Just, like, explain it just because it was so good and so honest. But I could just. I know some anxious attachment cells are like, oh, no. Like, they don't, you know, it's me. And. And I just want people to not think that.

B (28:46)

No, for sure. And it sparks good discussion. Yeah. And as I mentioned before, like, it. It takes on such a different dynamic and feeling of not just being a physical act. So I think if you. If you don't have that and you're removing that, like I said, it's just you're getting your. Your physical needs met. And again, after a while, if it's sort of the same thing over and over and that's all you have, I don't think that's enough. And I think just a natural byproduct will be the drive and the arousal and the. Yeah, the desire will. Will just go down naturally. And it's like, what happened here? Like, the person can still love you and care about you and enjoy your company. Like, nothing's probably changed in that. In that area. But sadly, you know, because there's not those other dynamics that. Because sex, really, as much as a DA wants to admit it or not, sex is like a very vulnerable. And, like, it is sort of like the merging of two people. Even the stuff that talks scares me. Except I'll tell you a funny story. Like, I'll get into some other points here too, as well, because I want to talk about, like, even during, like, the act of, like, sex for a day, you might notice, like, a very, very lack of eye contact for the day. So, like, you might even notice the DA Might want to, like, engage in positions and stuff where you're not, like, directly like, staring into someone's Eyes. Because it's like, it's so close. It's super confronting. And I remember talking to my AP friend. Like, she would get so mad because she dated a lot of D A guys and she wanted them to, like, stare into her soul, like, during lawmaking. But, like, for me, I remember, like, some partners wanting that as well, and I'm like, hell no. Like, that's way too close, way too intimate, way too confronting. And. And yeah, you would just be, like, trying your best to not make it that close of an act and not make it seem like this is such a. A bonding, connecting, we're fusing ourselves together type situation. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do.

A (31:03)

And. And to your point, like, this is like, to some dismissive avoidance when they're severely dismissive, when this is usually in, like, their. Their, like late teenage, early twenties, sometimes you struggle to make eye contact in general. Like, like when just talking to somebody. Like, I. I have a friend who told me one time that, like, their whole early upbringing, they would just, like, look slightly above somebody's eyes all the time because they couldn't even, like, look directly into their eyes. So, like, there's, like, you can only imagine you take that a step closer to, like, how vulnerable sex and intimacy already are. Like, of course there's going to be those themes and patterns.

B (31:36)

Exactly. And like, again, this goes to our point. Like, if you're the DA and you haven't let someone see you, and you're still trying to hide parts of yourself, and there's still a lot of shame and, like, worries of being not good enough and defectiveness, of course, then, like, the sexual act will be scary if you guys are, you know, intense eye contact and really, like, you know, like you're seeing somebody.

A (32:03)

Yeah, for sure.

B (32:05)

But if you've worked on those pieces and you see, like, my partner loves me unconditionally, like, I love my partner unconditionally. I care about this person. I. I want to take care of them. Like, if there's these things that. Steps you've taken to become closer to someone, that's beneficial for the. For the. For the couple, because. Especially for the D.A. like, if you feel seen and you see that you're accepted regardless of your faults or your perceived faults, then you'll be more open to, like, being more intimate and being more vulnerable because it's not so scary. Like, the scary part about being vulnerable is. Is being exposed and being like, you know, made fun of or criticized or,

A (32:49)

you know, in some way.

B (32:51)

Yeah. If you develop that, that Vulnerability and intimacy. The fear is gone. And then that's why sex takes on a completely different dimension, and it's not just a physical act.

A (33:05)

Totally. Yeah. That was a great chair. I want to tell a story quick, too, if I can. So I had these clients once, and, like, this is, I think, a good story for anybody who's, like. Because sex is such a tricky topic for people, because it makes them judge themselves and, like, for their performance or for the way they look or their bodies. Like, there's so many, like, wounds that come out of sex. And I remember having this couple and the couple, the. The. And I'm not gonna, like, obviously share their personal information, but the couple was this one guy who was later in his career and had retired, but he was this famous musician for a period of time, and he was dating probably, like, one of the prettiest women I had ever seen. Like, she was so pretty. So, like, perfectly put together. And they've been dating. I can't remember exactly how long at the time, they were on and off for quite a while. And I want to say it was, like, maybe three or four years. And they came into work with me, and one of the issues that they had was around sex. He was dismissive, avoidant. She was fearful, avoidant. Something that was so interesting is they came in to, like, talk about, like, that part of their. Their lives. She said that, like, what happened is he started withdrawing physically around, like, a year and a half in. And she thought, oh, well, he probably has all these other women, and she didn't trust. And because he was this famous person at one point and all these things. And so it became this whole cycle where she then started becoming critical, because then she was, like, frustrated, and she was not trusting. So then she would, like, criticize. And then, of course, then he was like, oh, now you're judging my performance around sex and me around sex and pressuring me to want to have sex more often and this. All of these things. And they were in such a bad loop around this whole thing. Basically, they'd been together for that past year, if it was year three or four or five, but that last year they had sex, I think, like, once or twice when they came to talk about it. And I always see sex as, like, symptomatic of other pillars when it comes to, like, in being in an actual committed relationship. And so I was like, okay, interesting. Let's see. Explore the other pillars. And sure enough, she was, like, never really vulnerable. So they weren't engaging. They were. They connected emotionally at the Beginning around like simple, similar interests and topics, like built an emotional connection and intellectual connection because they both loved music and they, you know, could talk about that kind of stuff, but that only goes so far. And then as we progress to future stages of relationships after like the honeymoon stage and going into the power struggle stage, that emotional connection and intellectual connection has to be about like your relationship sometimes and like how you're doing and what's going on inside of you. And neither of them had learned to open up emotionally and be vulnerable with each other. And I remember him saying in one session, and she took this really to heart. He was like, I don't know how else to say this, but I think she's like one of the most attractive people I've ever seen. But I feel like my attraction to her has started to change. And it was because there was just exactly to what you were saying earlier. Like the dopamine is gone. You can have the, this car in the world, but eventually it's like just your car. But then you end up in a situation where it's like, it's just not about like physical experience and physical looks. It's not just about performance. Like we get all these crazy stereotypes in the world about like, it's how you look or it's how you perform or it's. And it's like, well, that really isn't very much of it in the long, in the grand scheme of things. In the long term relationship, of course that can have an impact at various times, especially earlier on. But really long term, your ability to like maintain enjoyment around sex and, and be interested in having sex and keep that attraction high, is it all pillars of the relationship are being nurtured and nourished. So you have those things and you can of course try new things around sex. Like you can find novelty in other forms too. But like it's really going to come down to is the whole relationship really working from all pillars and then that allows for that to take place. And so what they worked on was like they changed in their work. They stopped focusing on sex to try to solve the problem. They started actually focusing on like emotional bonding, opening up, sharing things, which then allowed them to start sharing things around sex more honestly in a healthier way. And all of a sudden, within a very short period of time, like a couple months, their intimacy was back online and things were going well. So just to summarize that, like there's a lot more to the whole story of how we see sex, especially how we're culturally conditioned to view It.

B (37:36)

Yeah, I love that. And that part you said about, you know, you can try different things. I think a lot of couples, because they don't have that communication and don't have that, like, trust with each other, and they fully haven't seen each other, there is a lot of, like, worry and shame and, like, communication not happening about sex. And like, hey, let's try this. Or, like, hey, let's try that. And there might be things that you desire, but you're just too worried or shameful to share them with your partner. But really, if you address those other pillars and the trust is there and the communication is there, and just the knowing that, like, your partner accepts you no matter what, you're going to be more free and open to share. Like, hey, like, what? Would you be open to trying this? Like, hey, would you be open to trying that? But if you're like. If you're just worried and insecure and scared, like, you're just gonna kind of keep things status quo. And then we know, like, if you're just doing the exact same thing over and over and over for anybody, that' going to get sort of monotonous and boring. So, yeah, strangely, like, you'd think, oh, then, you know, take a course on how to have hot, steamier sex or whatever. But it's like, no, you got to build.

A (38:50)

There's deeper roots. Yeah, exactly.

B (38:53)

Then you're just, like, open, and you're like, when you're open and your partner's open, like, there's the possibility they're endless, and there's just so much more. More uncharted territory that you can explore instead of just, like, you know, doing the regular point A to point B, like, there's all these different things you can. You can explore. And. And again, when you really care about the other person and you let them in and they've let you in, there's just so much more fulfillment and. And just amazing aspects to that. To. To that stuff. Yeah, to that stuff.

A (39:33)

No, but I. And like, that's what I think is so important about that story, is, like, how much there is to that entire conversation of sex. Like, I just think we get culturally conditioned to think of sex as, like, having an orgasm and being attracted to people who are physically attractive and how somebody performs and shows up. And it's like, well, that's kind of like the. The tip of the iceberg piece. And there's, like, so much more. I can't. Like, I never, ever, ever worked with a couple who had intimacy issues that didn't Actually just have way more deep rooted issues first. Like, that was like such a, like in a longer term relationship. It was like, like, it was like literally if people were like, yeah, we don't sleep together anymore, we've been married 20 years, blah, blah, blah, I'd be like, okay, and how's your emotional connection? How's your intellectual connection? How's the romantic part of the relationship? And all of those things were suffering first and then it eventually spills into sex and intimacy and then it like, so, so I actually see that almost any more than anything else as being like, representative of the tip of the iceberg. And if everything else is running smoothly underneath that, beneath the, the, the surface of the water line, usually the tip of the iceberg looks great. Everything's like swimming along easily. But like, if it's not, that's where a lot of those problems tend to really be.

B (40:41)

Hundred percent. I just want to bring up one more topic too, because I know I've heard this from a lot of people in the past. They said, you know, sometimes my DA, after sex, like, wants to literally like run out of the room, like, be as far away from me as possible. And that, that could be really upsetting, upsetting for anyone, but especially for an anxious person who just felt that they were really close and connected and intimate with their partner only to feel like, pushed away or whatnot. But it is due. Again, it's not personal. Of course it. I don't, I don't blame anybody for feeling, feeling upset or feeling slighted, but just know a lot of those are for wounds that like the DA needs to face and heal themselves as well. Because a lot of times after being that close, the natural reaction of the DA is like, I need to like dis.

A (41:32)

Attack, not be engulfed.

B (41:34)

This was very close. And I don't want this to be like, yeah, I don't want to be like engulfed and like smothered. And you know, a lot of DAs have like spatial things around space and having their own sort of space bubble. So it was almost like that act was like the ultimate codependency or the ultimate, like having somebody super close to you. So then there's this instant recalibration that the DA just, hey, I need, I need physical space right now. I feel trapped a little bit. I feel a little like engulfed. But again, due to like, attachment style factors, if the DA does work on, like, I'm trapped and like, I am,

A (42:19)

you know, weak if I'm vulnerable.

B (42:22)

Yeah, exactly.

A (42:23)

And like, shameful to be too close or too too.

B (42:26)

Exactly. Or because if we. If we hold each other after, like, it means like, oh, we're so. Like, we're so close. And my partner's gonna think we're really, like, closer than we had our type thing. I don't know if it was a me thing or, like, a DA thing.

A (42:42)

Yeah, that's a very DA thing. That's like the vast majority of days.

B (42:45)

Yeah. I don't want to at the time. I don't want the person to, like,

A (42:48)

think we're, like, closer than we are. That's just like, pure deactivation strategy. Like, that's the amount of times people would say exactly those words. I don't want my partner, this person, my partner, whoever it was, to. To think that we're closer than we are. And so there. And think about it like, the Sims of 1C activate more than anything else. That's like their main attachment strategy, in a sense. So it's like, like, okay, now you feel this level of closeness down. You're like, whoa. And there's this constant need to, like, create that space and. And do that. And like, I find that dismissive wounds. It definitely appears so much around sex, but also just in so many areas of life where, like, you even share this on the podcast and given great examples. But, like, countless times I'd hear people be like, yeah, I didn't want to, like, plan something too fun for the anniversary because then they'll always expect that of me. Or I didn't want to take them on a date that was too special because they'll think I like them too much or I don't want to. And it's like, almost like constantly trying to manage the other person's expectations of, like, what you'll give and. And what you'll show up for as a means of, like, keeping your sense of self and identity.

B (43:50)

Yeah. That's so crazy. Like, you. You care about your partner. You want to do something nice, but then there's this background voice saying, like, don't do. Don't do that much again, like, it'll be an expectation.

A (44:02)

Yeah.

B (44:03)

And also they're going to think with them forever.

A (44:06)

You're gonna. You'll never leave weeks later.

B (44:09)

Yeah. Yeah. But. So, yeah, what else is there?

A (44:14)

I want to talk about needs for a second, if we can. So I want to talk about. I think that something that's really interesting is for every person to get clear about the. Some of the external and peripheral needs that sex meets. So. So it's different for different attachment cells and for different Personalities. So I think for some people, sex meets deep connection. Right. Like, for some people, that's like a form of, like, literally connecting deeply. Who. People who cherish vulnerability, who value that in relationships. And obviously you see that in, like, more anxious leaning people. You see how anxious attachment styles tend to have a big love language around physical touch. Right. And that pours into sex. Fearful avoidance can be very like that too. But fearful ones have the hot and cold relationship to it. Some days are like that sometimes. Sometimes they're like, oh, stay back. So they can really go either way. And dismissive avoidance, a lot of the needs sometimes are around novelty, sometimes are around the obvious, like, pleasure. But it can also be around feeling wanted or, you know, feeling attractive. And. And that. That sense of that being in there. And so I think it's important. And if you want to. If you feel comfortable breaking down, like, think needs that you think were met. And I'll talk a little bit more about the other attachment styles, but I think that there's needs on the periphery of sex, which drives us to be interested in sex in the beginning to begin with. And I think knowing your needs around that and being able to communicate them openly to your partner is also something that's really beneficial so that those needs are met, if that makes sense.

B (45:39)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Novelty, for sure. What else, I guess, is not a need, but, like, a core wound. But, like, you know, if you're having sex with your partner and your partner is, you know, satisfied and feels good, then that, like, sort of makes you feel like, oh, like, I am good enough for, like, yeah, yeah, I am. I'm not defective.

A (46:02)

Like, okay, wait, we gotta. That's like a mic drop moment. Because that's such a big deal. For dismissive avoidance. Because dismissal wouldn't shame themselves more than anyone else around sex, in my opinion, for little silly, unnecessary things. And I would see it over and over and over again with clients. Like, they would tell me all these stories, and I would be like, that's not if I.

B (46:21)

If I'm gonna get real honest. Before, when I was, like, my most unhealed, I had to be, like, drunk to have sex.

A (46:30)

Yeah.

B (46:31)

Super insecure and, like, so worried that, like, it wouldn't be good for the other person. Like, there was all these insecurities. And then throw. Throw in, like, porn. And porn just, like, pollutes the mind and gives you, like, unreal expectations of what. What, you know, how you're supposed to be and how things are supposed to happen. So it was like, Such a recipe for like anxiety and insecurity that like alcohol would have to be a factor in a lot of not, not long term relationships. This is more like dating stage or like early or dating someone new and that kind of stuff. But so that's why like you know where we say meet that need, like where you feel like you do have sex with someone and it's, it feels good and both of you had a good time. Like for a DA that, that feels pretty amazing I imagine for anybody. But yeah, for sure.

A (47:21)

And I just, I want to say one more thing before we move on to other needs. Just for people listening who like are not dismissive, avoiding, they're trying to like understand the da. You think about it that way too with like what Mike just said, that that is not exclusive to Mike. Like the amount of times I was in private practice and clients would tell me stories like this of how they felt and how they were scared and all these things. And obviously like that would come out as people opened up over time. But like that is very common for dismissive avoidance. And it makes it more appealing to have like a one night stand with somebody if you're like that because there's just less pressure. I don't know the person, they're not going to take their opinion with, with them or like I might, I don't have to ever see them again if I don't want to. And I think there's that also driving force where sometimes dismissive avoidance if they already have so much pressure on themselves, they shame themselves so much for things. It's like well, non committal things don't have the power to like make me feel so ashamed. And I think again that becomes another layer to that.

B (48:11)

Yeah, no, for sure. And like, like that, that was almost like exclusively what I was looking for at one point was just like the least amount of vulnerability and where somebody's not judging you, like you'd meet them out at a bar and like you're drunk and they're drunk and you're probably not gonna see them ever again. So that seemed to be like the,

A (48:30)

the how do I get my needs met while avoiding my fears? Typical thing that all human beings do all the time and that just happens to be around sex and intimacy.

B (48:38)

Exactly. And actually you know what? I'm remembering now too. Even in those days, even though it was like, it was very. What's the word? Intimated, it was very, it was very obvious that this is just like a one night stand type situation. But I was, I was like being Cuddly and, like, being, like. Wanted to be a little close because I never. I didn't really have that. And then I remember a few people are like, oh, you're, like, pretty cuddly, or, like, you're pretty. Pretty cuddly person. Because they're thinking, oh, this is just.

A (49:12)

But it was like, you could be that because the.

B (49:14)

Exactly.

A (49:15)

Yeah.

B (49:16)

The alcohol. And I'm like, okay, here's my chance to, like, feel like, what if close with another human being and, like, it actually feels pretty nice. But then, you know, switch that or, like, silver and doing that, you know, getting really close to another human. Without Yalco, then it was a lot more challenging, and there was a lot more worries and insecurities.

A (49:37)

I'm so glad you said that. For every person who's ever had an experience with a dismissive avoidant who's, like, close to them, and the amount of clients I would see be like, thais. Like, at the beginning, they showed up in this way, and they were, like, more warm. And, yeah, we were out drinking, but they were like this at the beginning. And then it changed. And, you know, sometimes it's because of exactly those reasons you just mentioned. It's like, there's just less fear involved at the beginning for dismissive avoidance because there's less vulnerability, there's less commitment. And then when those things come online, that's when you're gonna see them start to pull away.

B (50:06)

Does the. Do you think, like, the neurochemical high outweighs those fears in the beginning? I guess for da, they're just like, oh, this feels really good right now. This newness, this closeness. This feels like physically, this feels unbelievable. And they're not really considering yet. Like, oh, like, we're getting pretty close pretty fast. Like. Like, do you think it's the neurochemical eye that sort of keeps a DA from in the beginning? Because they say DA show up, like, amazing in the beginning. Like, people tell their friends, oh, I met this guy. He's perfect. He's secure, He's. He's affectionate. Like, he does all these things perfect. But then once things sort of become obvious, you're like, oh, this guy's super da.

A (50:47)

I think it's less that. I think that the neurochemical piece, like, at the beginning, the dopamine gives, like, a little bit of that motivation and drive to get needs met, so to, like, move in that direction. And if you feel like you want to be cuddly, okay, you're cuddly, and you don't think much of It, I think it's much more the wounds than the needs. So needs make us drive towards things, wounds make us steer clear of them. We're more wired to avoid pain than to seek pleasure. In other words, we're more wired to avoid wounds than drive towards needs. And so I think what happens is for dismissive avoidance, they, you know, sure, they get some needs met early on, but when the wounds come online, because there's now more closeness, there's more expectation, there's more vulnerability required, you're building a more deep connection with somebody, maybe emotionally. I think when those things start to come online after the fact, I think that then those wounds, like if you're in your fears, you don't. Your dopamine's not really in. You're dominated by cortisol. Right. So I think when those fears come online, that's really what sabotages things. And that speaks to your point earlier, like, why it's so important to do the core wound work for like a sustainable relationship, if that's what a dismissive avoidant listing is looking for. Because as long as that's there, you're going to. Keeping, you know, have a little dopamine when there's no expectations and no fears online at the beginning, and that can get some of your needs met. But then as soon as you actually feel an attachment, you're going to want to run and hide. And it's like that creates this level of unsustainable progression. Right. Like, you can't progress in a dynamic with somebody that way. So much more about, like, rewiring the wounds and healing those things than. Than about trying to attempt to sustain the dopamine high. It won't work that way, but B. Because I think that's less of a driver.

B (52:30)

Yeah, exactly. One other point I just want to make before I forget is like, there's lust and there's love. And I think if you're trying to sustain a relationship off of lust, it's. You don't really get to know the person. It's very more surface and lust will always fizzle. Like it's just natural. Whereas love, if you're. You're trying to cultivate love with someone and you, you love them, they love you. That's the thing that's sort of more lasting. So I don't know. I just remember I was watching a video sort of on the difference of lust and love. And you definitely want to shoot for love. You don't want to be. This video is going as far to saying, like, you shouldn't you should get to a point where you don't lost stuff to your partner.

A (53:13)

It's.

B (53:13)

It's. Love is the more lasting, more important component. But I don't know, I imagine the beginning. Everybody has some lust for their partner.

A (53:22)

Yeah. And it doesn't go away. Like you won't like be like, oh, I don't find my partner attractive anymore. I only love them. Like it won't like become that, but it'll become like you're attracted to the, to your partner and like, like attracted to like them if we're around sex and intimacy. But it won't, that won't be like your governing way of relating to them as a baseline. Does that make sense? It's like when you first meet someone, like maybe you're dating them, you get some butterflies or you're like less full, you're excited, you're like kind of nervous. And then like over time when you build deeper and deeper roots, it doesn't mean that that goes away. It just, that means that that's superseded by like the foundation of the relationship being much bigger than that. So then by comparison that seems much smaller. And for sure, like some of the neurochemical costs cocktail changes. You don't have as much like phenylethylalamine that like attraction neurochemical. When the honeymoon stage ends, research shows that goes down a little bit. But. But I think that it's okay to have some degree of like lustfulness towards your partner. You want to be attracted to your partner. That's healthy and normal. But I think that the dominant way you relate to your partner is through a lens of love in a healthy, secure relationship long term. And that's so much of like what it means to get to the bliss stage. Like we talk about the stages of relationship. Like you go dating, honeymoon, power struggle, stability, commitment and bliss. And at the bliss stage, that's sort of like you can think of it as like dominantly through that lens of, of love.

B (54:46)

Yeah. I want to touch on one other user question. I'm so interested to hear what you would say. So some, as we were talking about before about having sex quick, we're like, you know, don't do it. Try to, try to delay it as much as you can. Probably the better idea. But then I've heard some people say, and somebody asks, sex is very important to them. So they think almost like do. Doing that early is important to see the sexual chemistry because if they waited months and months or however long, and then the intimacy was just like, no bueno. Yeah. They would feel like, oh my gosh. Well, this could have obviously been avoided if we just did this very early on. What, what would be your thoughts about that?

A (55:36)

Good question. So it's a complicated question because some people, cults really have different views, right? Like, some people are like, I don't want to have sex before marriage. Some people are like, I don't even care about that at all. So everybody's different in that way, excluding those things. Okay? Assuming that everybody's like, we're just trying to have a long term relationship. And if you look at like the kind of status quo in North America nowadays, date somebody, eventually sleep with them, eventually move in together or get engaged, get married, move in, whatever it is. So let's say that that's like the, the space. I don't think I ever saw a person who was like, yeah, sex and intimacy is important to me, who didn't already know whether there, whether or not there was going to be good connection and good chemistry. Because, you know, like, you could already tell if there's like a spark with somebody or not in advance.

B (56:26)

And I don't think the actual act is going to be like, you're like, I know this is going to be.

A (56:32)

Let me ask you so. So, and this is a question for everybody listening. Like, let's say that, how do I say this in a way that's not so. So let's say that you're in a situation, okay? And let's say it's like a, you're, you're a coach and you're trying to pick your team, okay? You can tell who already has like the natural talent or skill, but then you can tell who's going to work hard, right? And it's like if somebody' talent, if there's talent and then you know they're going to work hard, like you know it's going to be a good outcome. So I'm not sitting here saying sex around talent and working hard, but what I am saying is like think of the talents as being the chemistry. Like, you know, if you feel this like spark with somebody, if that spark's really strong, that's like synonymous to your natural talent, okay? Like there's this natural spark that's like je ne sais quoi. You don't know what it is. You know that that's there. If you're like connecting with someone, you're like, maybe we would feel, you know, connect well, but you don't even know if there's a spark. You can tell from like the time you Kiss somebody. In my opinion, whether you have, like a real chemistry or a real spark with somebody or not.

B (57:33)

Yeah.

A (57:33)

And so that's the first part that's like, analogous to the natural talent. But then, like, if, if let's say that somebody isn't very experienced around sex and intimacy and the other person is. Who says that? That's a big deal? Well, then it becomes a question of, like, are you working on the other pillars of your relationship? Because if you can communicate and you know that the person's gonna invest in like, meeting your needs. Cause you feel comfortable sharing them, even if they have less experience, but you already have the spark, then, like, you're gonna be able to be in a position where you, you talk about things, you say your preferences or your needs or what's important to you or how you want things to take place and you share and you can conversate about those things. So if you already have the chemistry and you're able to do that, which is what we should do in healthy, stable relationships anyways, then, like, you're not gonna. Not. You're not gonna have a bad experience when you're like, attracted to somebody. There's a spark and you can talk it out. Like, like it's just a time thing. If that makes sense. In the very rare case that that even happens.

B (58:28)

I was gonna say, I bet you, like a super small percentage would be like the biggest letdown ever. If you guys were dating. You feel there's good flirting, good banter. Yeah. You guys kiss and it's wonderful. Kiss. Like, you just know, like it's. You guys have already the ingredients to. It's probably going to be really good. And then what you said too, so important, like, if you, if you don't. If you're the type of person that doesn't communicate anything, doesn't, like, is kind of closed and like, you're expecting this other person to figure it out.

A (59:05)

Yeah.

B (59:05)

Yeah. Figure it out. 100. Then I feel like that's a bit of a crapshoot where it's like. Because what I appreciated so much in relationships was where someone, like, communicates and says, like, oh, hey, would you mind doing a little more of that? Or like, hey, not really a fan when you do that.

A (59:25)

Yeah.

B (59:25)

Because I remember before if somebody would say something like that, I, I'd, like, I'd be so upset. I'd be like, oh, I suck. Like, I don't know what I'm doing, but it's so amazingly, like, helpful. And I'll say this for like, men like if we get little, little tips, just. Yeah, like, of course we're gonna feel like a legend if our partner feels really great. Right. So like, let us know. Like we're all, we all have different shapes and sizes and likes and dislikes. So, you know, and again, that goes for our side as well. If there's something that we're really enjoying or like, wanna want to add more of, tell. Tell your partner that that just goes

A (60:08)

to like, like communication across the board. Like that's about every pillar of a relationship all the time. Like, I think that that's like a prerequisite for knowing if you're going to be in a healthy relationship long term is like vetting for that. Like, do we talk things out no matter what pillar it is like connection pillar, the romantic connection pillar, the physical connection pillar, the intellect. Like they all like that should just be what's normal relationship in a perfect.

B (60:32)

Yeah, it's so important because like, I think I remember in the past too, like somebody doing something multiple, multiple, multiple times, but I was too worried to like offend them or make them feel. Yeah. Because I felt if somebody were to say to this to me, I'd be like, oh, I suck. So I was just like, just sort of accepting it. But like at that point I was like, oh, I don't really like this.

A (60:55)

And then you eventually are like, okay, let me get away from the situation. Because you don't talk about it. Just like with anything.

B (61:00)

We don't have good sexual chemistry, but it's like, no, you could. But you guys are just both not sharing exactly what you like or what you don't like, which is equally important. Yeah. Okay.

A (61:12)

Any last words before we wrap?

B (61:14)

Yeah, we got to get it all in. In case we don't talk about sex in the near future again. If your partner's DA and you see that happening, or if you're a DA and feel that drop off or whatever. Really, really try to go into those other areas of relating with someone. And the more you can go outside of your comfort zone, the more you can show yourself, the more you can do things that are uncomfortable. Showing who you are and like letting the other person see you. I guarantee you it's gonna add positive aspects to, to the sexual aspect of your relationship.

A (61:52)

Absolutely.

B (61:54)

If you've hit a wall, it's not like, oh, this is over, we're never going to recover. You just do both. You have to be willing, but you need to work on those, those other areas and get to know each other even deeper and share even More vulnerably. It's. Otherwise it'll be, yeah, hit that wall.

A (62:11)

So, okay, wait. One last thing. Dismissive avoidance. Respond much better in all cases. But around sex and intimacy, too, to positive reinforcement. Tell somebody what you do, won't do, want, not what they are not doing or what they're doing. Important tip for anybody in a relationship with a dismissive avoidant.

B (62:29)

Start. Start with the. What do they say? The positive sandwich. Compliment. Love. Love your style in the bedroom. Love what we're doing. But there's one thing. I was wondering if we could modify or alter a bit, you know, and then share that.

A (62:45)

And then share something positive at the end.

B (62:47)

Exactly. And then, yeah, just say, is that. Are you open to that? And. And then open it up as well. Be like, is there anything that you might want to change or add or delete? Because the first per. It's kind of cool. The first person who comes at it vulnerably, that's showing the other person, hey,

A (63:02)

like, gives them permission to do the same thing.

B (63:05)

Yeah, we're allowed to ask for something we like or don't like. So that's the beauty of sort of opening up. So, yeah, if you're the partner every day, that might be a good way to sort of broach, you know, certain things that you want, want, or don't want. Yeah. Yeah, totally.

A (63:22)

Okay. Thank you, Mike. This is a fun conversation. I'm so glad we did this. I know so many people were asking about these things for a very long time. Appreciate you. If anybody wants to learn more about Mike or where to find him, we'll put a link to his socials down below. And if you listen to us on itunes or Apple or wherever you listen to podcasts, Spotify, you can also find us on YouTube and vice versa. And if you don't want to miss any of the cool offers, we actually have a really exciting course you can check out fully for free for a limited time. All about attachment styles and sex. All their patterns, their fears, their wounds. You can go much deeper into this topic and I'll leave a link for that down in the description below too. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time.

B (64:03)

See you next time.

A (64:04)

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