B (2:44)

Yeah.

A (2:45)

Showed that about 50% of the population secure, 22 and a half percent is anxious, 22 and a half is dismissive. And 5% they think are fearful avoidant. And like, to me, I'm telling you the exact same way that you do. I'm like, there's no way, because I know so many people. Or if you've been through PDFs or programs now, it could be the sample size of people like Mike. You know, for anybody who wasn't in PDS before Mike. Yeah, that's the research. Somebody's like 5%. Janelle's like 5%. That's the research. And you know, it's so interesting because for us, like, we see in pds, because we work with the students in there, and Mike was in there working with students for years, and geez, I'd say like 30% of people in there are fearful avoidant. And probably because we go deep into the fearful avoidant. And there's also a lack of resources for fascinating. But that's like the most in depth. Now, if you look at Gallup polls, if you look at tests, if you look at, like, we've had a few million people take the PDS assessment and it skews, like, very, it's not like that at all. Like, you're seeing different things, but there can be the anomalies of self reporting like that. And you're exactly right, Delilah. A lot of people confuse FAS with APs, like a lot of fearful avoidance. Their anxious side is so much more loud that you think you're, you're anxious at first, but then when you look more deeply, you're like, oh, I push people away a ton. I shut people down. I, I. And, and, and so that's why I find it so meaningful to also know the core wounds, to also, you know, dive into what we created for integrated attachment theory, which shows, like, a much deeper lens. It's like, what are the core wounds? What are the needs, the emotional patterns, the boundary patterns? Because it really helps to sort of splice it out a little bit more. So. Yeah, yeah, good, good.

B (4:25)

The only Reason I think this could be skewed is because, you know, I hang out in a lot of circles with personal development type folk and like, FAS are huge on wanting to understand themselves, wanting to understand others, and really deep into, like, solutions and personal growth in general. So maybe just the crowds that I'm in just happens to be like that. Yeah, exactly. But I don't know, I just feel like a lot of even people that I meet have a lot of traits of fearful avoidance. So it is what it is. But yeah. Do you want to start off with our first wound here? I'll be betrayed. You want to pick that one off?

A (5:03)

Definitely. So. So the, the first and one of the most major wounds from an integrated attachment theory point of view is I will be betrayed. So this is like the body of work we published back years and years ago. And it's because every single fearful avoidant struggles to trust. And sometimes it's like the big struggles to trust, sometimes it's the obvious. It's like, oh, I don't trust somebody that, that somebody won't cheat on me. I don't trust that somebody won't lie to me in a bunch of ways or betray. But the reality is that what's actually happened for fearful avoidance in their own conditioning is that they couldn't trust their environment. So a lot of fearful avoidance had to constantly walk on eggshells. Maybe they had a parent who was an active addiction and they never knew which version of the parent they were going to get. Maybe they had a parent or parents were fighting and really chaotic and tumultuous ways growing up and the kids felt, you know, caught in the middle and confused. Maybe they had parents who took their anger out on them all the time and so they constantly to walk on eggshells. Or maybe you would parent a parenthood narcissistic personality disorder, and you never knew which version of that parent. You're like. All these types of themes cause a child to be like, okay, I have to be hypervigilant. I have to constantly read between the lines. I have to be in a position where I can predict what's going to happen by seeing somebody's micro expressions very quickly. I was just on a podcast before this and somebody said that they were fearful avoidant, who was, who is the host of the podcast. And they said, they said, yeah, I would close the door or my mom would open the door when she came home. And by the way she closed the door, I could tell, you know, what version I was going to get. And so that's the fearful avoidant. It's like this, this hyper vigilance. You notice everything. Part of it becomes a superpower because you end up like literally noticing everything. I joke for those of you I saw Kachona say, this is my number one core wound. I joke with people that like, honestly, fearful avoidance are human lie detectors because they clock everything they see incongruencies. If something changes. You tell a story one week and then you tell it differently a week later. They are like, why is the story different? You know, so you see a lot of these themes for sure. But. And I'll just say this last thing or two and then you can share about maybe the. How you would see the show up and people you were dating. But the other thing is that there's this sort of like, I can't trust the future. I can't trust that somebody won't change their mind in 10 years or won't be different or how can I trust that? You know, I can really. People really show up for me in the long run. Like, people change. There's a lot of this sort of doubt there. And fearful avoidants often cope with that by trying to control themselves a lot. So be really in control of their environment, of their plans, their habits, their goals. Like they kind of hyper control themselves and that gives them relief from feeling like they're in this out of control environment or world. But also that can burden you a lot and it can cause a lot of nervous system dysregulation and do things that then perpetuate some of the conditioning. So I want to pass it over to you. Oh, that's so nice that your friends are there. Delilah with you. Amazing. I know and I agree. Talk. I think secure attachment, 50% seems very high. I agree. I would poke at that for sure, but those are just the most in depth sort of research studies. But a lot of our Gallup polls and things that are more recent show that number on the decline. In fairness too. Hi. Ave Ava. Laura. Okay, so tell us, Mike. So what do you think from people you were dating, what did you tend to see?

B (8:25)

Yeah, to comment on the last thing you mentioned, the aspect of control type type thing there, I would just notice like I was always like, go with the flow kind of person. I was like, I, I'm not a big planner and I wasn't really into like having to know every detail and all that kind of stuff. I'm just like, yeah, let's hang out Friday. And just like not much detail after that, but I would just notice a Lot of partners would. Would struggle with not knowing exactly, okay, where, where are we going? Or are you picking me up? Are we meeting here? What's going on? And I would find myself getting frustrated almost with, like, this need for, like, knowing every single detail. And I'm like, whatever, like, we're getting together, like, it'll be fine. You know what I mean? I always just had the feeling everything will work out. Like, what's the worst that can happen? But I just noticed a lot of partners wanted a high degree of, like, planning and wanted to plan out their day and just know exactly what time everything was going to happen and whatever. I just, I'll be honest, at first I was just like, they're just being dramatic, and I didn't really care to, like, cater to them. And I'd just be like, yeah, it'll be fine, It'll be fine. But then I realized, like, you know, if that's a wound or a trigger, that's the beautiful thing about this work too. When you find out what's underneath your partner's thing that they're doing, you're going to be way more sensitive to it. Because if you think they're just doing something to, like, be difficult or just like, you know, making a big deal out of nothing, you're. You're going to kind of shrug it off. But when you understand, like, underneath the sort of, like, trauma aspect to it, then when I found out that I was like, okay, like, I need to let my partner know, you know, ahead of time what's going to happen, or I need to know. They need to know what time I'm going to be available, etc. Etc. So, yeah, just. Just one quick tip. Once you find out your partner's triggers, like, be a good human and really try to try to work with those, even if they don't affect you at all, and you wouldn't react that way or need that yourself, realize, like, that's their stuff and, you know, help them out a bit. So that's, that's one thing. Definitely, if you don't do what you say you're gonna do, like, they're keeping tabs on that and they're not gonna let you sort of forget that you said, you know, and like, I probably had a bad habit of saying, like, oh, yeah, I'll do that for you. Or, like, oh, you have a TV that needs to be installed. Like, yeah, I'll. I'll come by and I'll. I'll do that for you. But then I, I wouldn't do it like I would just forget or it wouldn't be like a priority. And that really like you could see that was really upsetting. Like if you said you were going to do something and didn't follow through with it, it was like a major letdown.

A (11:03)

Yeah.

B (11:05)

So like it's good in general to be that way. Like you should, your, your word is important. If you say you're going to do something, you should follow through. But realize for fa, if you say you're doing, going to do something and don't follow through, there can be a really like a triggering effect to that of, you know, incongruency of your words and your actions. And you know, as FAs experienced a lot in childhood, their parents actions or words didn't always match with, you know, one day their behavior was this way, one day their behavior was that way. It was just such a, you know, inconsistent patterning that they couldn't trust it. So you know, that can show up easily in adulthood if, if their partner is not, you know, their word doesn't match their actions.

A (11:52)

So it's so funny when you said that, like I think those things, like fearful ones I think of so many times before I like was aware of these things myself back in the day. And like, like these times where somebody says one thing like oh, I'm gonna do this thing, they don't follow through. And it, you register it so much more deeply as a fearful avoidant because you're like wait, like this, what are they doing? And so much of, I love that you raised that because so much of what fearful avoidance need and what fearful ones need to do first is actually rewire the core wounds and really help with a lot of those things. But what ends up taking place is that what you really need from relationships to co regulate, you want partners who give high levels. It doesn't have to be perfect, but high levels of consistency because consistency creates trust consideration. So when somebody checks in with your feelings like oh well I wanted to do this, but how do you feel about that? We trust people more when they consider us congruency. Exactly. Like you were saying, like what you say and what you do have to line up, the follow through has to be there and then context. Like if somebody changes the plans at the last minute and says hey, sorry, I can't come. If you have ones, they're like why give me the context? Like why can't you come? If I, if I have contacts I can hold space for you better. But if there's no context, they'll Often take it quite personally. So I love that you share this. I just want to answer a couple of quick questions in here too. Yeah, wouldn't that be. Wouldn't that example of not keeping your world reaction be for anyone? Will you explain that more bundled. Do you. Do you know what they mean by that? Wouldn't.

B (13:23)

Yeah, like, it isn't keeping your word. Like, like your words matching your words.

A (13:29)

In the world. I was like, I don't know.

B (13:32)

It's 100 a good quality. You want to embody as a secure person a thousand percent, but just realize if you were to do it to someone else, it's probably not such a big deal. They'll just be like, oh, they forgot. Or like water under the bridge, like, maybe they just got busy or whatever. But an FA will get really triggered by that and feel like the trust is kind of shattered a little bit, I think. And yeah, that'll affect the relationship without you even knowing it. Like, you don't realize that you just really, like, you know, breach their trust just by. By not, you know, doing something you said you were gonna.

A (14:07)

And that was like, the perfect answer is that, you know, somebody else might be like, oh, you didn't show up. And they. They might not like that. Right. It's not gonna. It takes away from a need. And when somebody takes away from our need, it can feel uncomfortable. But when it actually hits a wound, it feels like excruciating, like you're suffering more. And so you'll generally see a fearful avoidant be like, oh my God, like you didn't show up. Like, and. And they're like, can I even trust you at all? And they go down the rabbit hole. Are you up for me in hard times? Should I even be with you? Like, they'll often it will really trigger off a whole series of thoughts because it's coming from this preexisting stored, subconscious wound and from that place. That's where people feel the most triggered as a whole.

B (14:45)

Right.

A (14:46)

Yeah. And I just want to do like one or two other questions in here. I actually just saw my friend Christian that I used to live around in Miami many, many years ago. Hi. Can someone be fearful, anxious at the same time? What do you call them so fearful of when leaning anxious? So we to have leanings in our attachment cells. Somebody can be dismissive, avoidant with sort of. We call it our secondary attachment cell. They have a secondary FA style. Or somebody can be FA leaning da. Fa leaning anxious. And what it means is they'll sort of have these traits or Wounds or fears of something else. And it's more common for fearful avoidance because they have an anxious and dismissive avoidant side to their attachment style. So really great question. And Meg, I'm going to give you a question here. Louise says. Hi, Louise. Hi, Thais. Would you say if someone gets cheated on, that can potentially create a massive betrayal wound and not trust others in the future? Okay, I'll throw that to you, but I'll do some follow up there.

B (15:42)

Well, yeah, 100%. And we all know, like, our attachment style can shift based on, like, a highly emotional, traumatic event as well. It's not just childhood dynamics. So something like a major betrayal, like someone cheating, would for sure create a wound around trust and being able to trust again. It's not impossible to reprogram that to get back to a level of trusting future partners. There's work to be done and a process to be done if you want to repair the relationship where the trust violation happened. Tyce, I know you have a course on that and I know it's like a process to go through, but. Sorry, I can't see the question button.

A (16:25)

You'll be able to see it open and then you can scroll up and down. Okay, but it just says if somebody gets cheated on. I think you answered it perfectly already. But, like, can that potentially create a massive wound? And then.

B (16:33)

For sure. And if you want to add to that, if there's anything else.

A (16:38)

Exactly what Mike said. Like, and something that's important to note is that we are always being conditioned. So any intense emotional experience can imprint the subconscious mind or anything that's repeated. So if there's a ton of trust violations, you're dating somebody who chronically lies a lot, even if it's from their own insecurities. And it's not the. These, like, malicious lies. Those types of things over time, through repetition and emotion can also create trust wounds. So anything that has a big imprint or a really repetitive emotional imprint will create those wounds and. And will condition the subconscious mind. So great question. Okay, so. So let's go to the next one. We still have a lot to cover. So that's our first major wound. If you want to kick off the next one. Mike.

B (17:14)

I am bad.

A (17:15)

Yeah. Okay, great one.

B (17:16)

That's a pretty big one, right?

A (17:17)

For FA and for fa, how this often comes about is that fearful avoidance often gets.

B (17:22)

Is.

A (17:22)

You know, they're often in environments where if they have unpredictable caregivers, sometimes they're. The anger of those parents is taken out on the fearful avoidance. So you may see as an example that I think of one client I had, and he said that he had a stepfather that was super angry and just had a lot of like his own rage issues. And I remember him saying that he grew up in a household where like, if he laughed, he might get yelled at. If he, you know, made small mistakes, he would get yelled at. He, you know, it was like everything, it was just constantly his stepfather taking out his anger on him. And so this, this man as an adult, the big symptom you'll see of this I am bad wound. It's not like you consciously think you're bad. It's like you, you subconsciously keep thinking people will think you are bad because that was your conditioning and your experience. And so you'll over explain yourself. You'll assume that people are thinking the worst of you and feel like you need to like, fill them in. You'll be very sensitive to feeling like somebody doesn't understand your intentions. You may find yourself always trying to tell people like, why you did what you did and what actually took place. And some of that can be healthy to fill somebody in, to include somebody in things. But a lot of fearful avoidance, if you were punished for things that, you know, like you spilled water, you, you close the door too loud, you, you know, do these little human things you would never notice as a kid. If you, if you receive more severe punishments, then obviously as an adult you're like, oh, everybody's going to think that I'm bad. And there can be a lot of that and sometimes a lot of defensiveness can go with that too. So I'm curious how you saw Mike when you were dating people who are fearful avoidant, what that looks like from the outside looking in.

B (18:55)

I remember one partner would say sorry for everything, but like, when it wasn't, it wasn't warranted whatsoever. Like it was, she would just say sorry all the time. And I was, I would always tell her, like, don't, don't say sorry. Like that's, you didn't do anything wrong or like it's okay. But she just had this like natural reaction to say sorry to everything. Like, I don't even think sometimes it was, it was conscious and you know, I was always, I always felt bad for her because I felt like, geez, if you're saying sorry that much, you must feel kind of bad on the inside, you know, so that one was pretty evident. I never knew where that was coming from at the time. I would just try to tell her, like, it's okay, like, you know, Be, be easy on yourself. And then actually this happened recently. It was a friend who's fearful avoidant where she had a bit of a, an issue with her roommate. She, she broke her roommate's trust. Very small thing. It wasn't anything like really terrible but, but she just kind of did something that wasn't great but not the end of the world. And she was so mad at herself and just couldn't really was upset and I had to talk to her for a while and she just felt like she was a terrible person and she thought they're pretty much lifelong relationship was going to be over. And I was just trying to explain to her like that, you know, you guys have known each other for so long and like conflict is part of any relationship and it's, it's how you rebound for the conflict. Like if you take accountability and, and you show remorse and, and explain sort of why you might have did what you did. But just explaining to her like you're not a terrible person. Like we humans make mistakes. We're, we're all flawed and there's no one out there that can be perfect like all the time. It's just impossible. So yeah, it just hurt me to see that, you know, she's such a great person and sweet person and she just thought in that moment it was very black and white. It was like my friend hates me and is not going to want to be friends with me anymore.

A (20:59)

But yeah, that is such a powerful share because you know, for anybody who's fearful avoidant, you might see that you do that you're very unforgiving to yourself until you work through that wound. And so, and that mirrors. Because so much of our behavioral development as human beings is a result of how we were treated. So if you grew up feeling, you know, punished a lot for things that were insignificant, you hyper punish yourself for things that are insignificant or for things that are human, human mistakes. And so you'll end up seeing like if you were, if you were met with a lot of an environment that was unforgiving, you're very unforgiving of yourself. So I love that you said that because it's such a great share of just like, yeah, they beat themselves up so much, so hard on themselves, so unforgiving to themselves. And that's part of why healing the core wounds is so important. We'll talk about an exercise to heal core wounds at the end. But yeah, love that really, really great share. And I'm just going to answer one more question in here. It's a deeper or here we have to see these two comments. I'm kind of hesitant to ask this question, but I need to know, when parents attack each other or hit, can that create DA or fa? Great question. So a lot of times, if you're in close proximity to it or you're involved, it will be more FA because there's more of a tumultuous environment, more ups and downs, more being scared, being confused. So you'll generally see a lot of that, but there's exceptions to that. So, like, you can also have parents who are doing that. And maybe there's five siblings. I remember working with a family, and there were five siblings, and you could see the first two siblings were fa, and then the next three siblings were da. And what you would see is there was this really chaotic environment where there was, like, lots of fighting and physicality going on. And the eldest kids were very much involved, breaking it up, getting in the middle, getting stuck. And the other kids, they would run away, go to their room, retreat, withdraw. So a lot of it's how we've been conditioned to cope. And if we. If our major coping mechanisms during those times have been situated or oriented in a way that we retreat and stay back, then you may have more avoidant coping mechanisms and show up with more avoidant behavior like bda. But if you're in the middle, if you're hypervigilant, if you're the getting involved and there's these big things out of your control or comfort zone, those would be things that would be more likely to create a fearful avoidance. So. So really, really good question. And then I just thought, as an fa, I find it's easier to date someone that I kind of like rather than really like, because it's less stressful, because I obsess less. Yeah. So fearful avoidance sometimes will choose people that they think are safe because if they care too much, then they will feel too vulnerable. And the answer to this question is not to, like, date out of your zone of what you'd like. The question is to heal the things that are causing you to feel like you have to do that. So then you can actually be interested in people that are up to your standards or needs for what you're looking for and still have the safety within yourself because you've learned to regulate your nervous system, rewire your wounds, and do things that allow for good outcomes. So it's a great share, Lisa, but also important to note, important to dive in there. So, Mike, do you want to go into the third wound?

B (24:02)

Let's go With I am unworthy.

A (24:04)

Okay. Beautiful. Yeah. Unworthiness is generally fearful avoidance over giving under receiving. A lot of times it's because they were given love for their accomplishments and things that they did or achieved. And it's not that that's wrong that, you know, obviously want parents to be encouraging. It's that if the. If it's disproportionately focused on achievements rather than being loved for who you are. So for any of you guys in here who might be fearful, avoidant, I'm curious if you saw that in your life, like, maybe, you know, and I always say to parents who ask, how do I create secure kids? One of the things I say is, I say give your kids love for no reason. Because if a child feels like they're just loved when they're sitting, coloring in the corner or they're just hanging out, you know, the child feels like I'm just worthy of love because I exist. But if it's more conditioning where parents are putting a lot of pressure on or only giving you love when you're catering to their needs or impressing them or showing up for their emotional turmoil and problems, then you end up being like, oh, okay, I have to earn my worth. I have to earn love throughout my life. And it caused a lot of that kind of pressure and frustration. Hi, everybody. And so you'll end up seeing that as an adult. Fearful avoidance over give and under receive. They're sometimes scared to receive. You may even see, like, relean, like a thousand percent. You may even see that you end up in situations where you, like, go into things and you're scared, like, oh, my gosh, if I am receiving more than I'm giving, then I'm. I don't have worth to anybody. So I have to always be over giving. I always have to be doing things for everybody else and showing up for everybody else. And that's your way of feeling safe in relationships, because that's the only way you feel worthy of being loved. And so that's where you'll see a lot of pain points and challenges there. And so I'm curious what you would see people that you're dating, and if you want to share a little bit.

B (25:51)

Of context there, yeah, a couple things I would notice a lot of times there would be this, like, guilt and almost shame for complaining about something. Like, if something's tough and they're struggling with something in their life, they would always diminish it and be like, oh, other people are going through a lot worse stuff. Or like, oh, well, at least, you know, I'm not in this situation or whatever. So it was kind of like a diminishment. They would feel bad almost for, I don't know, taking up space to like. Yeah, to like share exactly what they're going through. And it's like, that's your experience. Like yeah, you're not homeless on the streets outside, which of course is terrible. But that doesn't mean in your reality what you're going through right now is causing you to, to not feel good. So you know, you should definitely step up and share and, and you know, that's part of being human and to open up a bit and let people know, you know, if you're struggling with something and there's no, no shame or you know, it's, it's not a competition of who's, you know, struggling worse than, than who. Right. The other thing is pretty much every FA partner I've dated takes on so, so much. They have like a million different things going on. And like, it was amazing because most people that I dated were like top of their field. They were like CEOs and like, like high level management and just doing awesome, amazing things. But they were also like just doing way too much. And like, I think they like being with me because I was more like, like chill and I could like bring the energy down with somebody who's very like hyper and like, like keyed up. I think when you come into my sphere, I sort of like bring the energy, bring the energy down. So they enjoyed that. It was like a contrast to their like crazy, chaotic busy day. But I just noticed the overarching theme was they were always having to like shoot really high and do more and accomplish more and achieve more and never seem cont comfortable resting on their laurels or just like chilling for a bit, like taking a few weeks off or just doing nothing, like kind of just being so yeah, that, that was a big thing that I noticed. I just always thought like, oh, for some reason I attract high, high achievers. Like high, high earning worth people. I don't know if that made sense but, but then, now I understand about fearful avoidance and I, I see their patterns now and I was like, okay, like is kind of baked in their nervous system to like performance and high achievement equals their parents giving them love and saying that they're like a good little boy or a good little girl.

A (28:37)

I love that idea like baked into their nervous system. It's such a good analogy. Okay, and I have to ask you a follow up there because you've Mentioned this on past podcasts. And obviously you and I have been good friends for a long time and I know some of your, your experiences. But you know, what would you find too? Because this is such a common output of the fearful wind taking so much on. And then they date somebody who's like more relaxed, more rooted, grounding, and then they're like emotionally over functioning, putting all this pressure on themselves to do stuff, and then they don't ask for help because they're like, worthy and they have a hard time asking for help and then they get frustrated. So did you ever feel in relationships where they took everything on, did all the chores because they had to be done a certain way, and then instead resent you rather than just ask for help or let you in because it's such a common theme that will tend to.

B (29:21)

Oh, yeah, well, here. Everyone's gonna hate me for this one. But I just thought that they love to give. I thought they were like, this is part of their nature. They love to give.

A (29:31)

They like, oh, you lost sound. You just lost sound. Hold on, I'll give you. Try hitting your microphone. I think you might have hit it off. Perhaps because it turned darker.

B (29:43)

Can you hear me now?

A (29:45)

It came back. Yeah, there you go.

B (29:46)

It might be different right now. I think I did hit it. There's a brand new mic and I don't know how.

A (29:50)

If you hit it, it will go off. I have one too.

B (29:54)

Yeah, I'll know that for next time. But I don't know if you heard the first thing I said. But like, so I used to think my partners were just so. They love helping and they love giving and they love doing things for me and like all this kind of stuff. So me being like the unhealed, dismissive avoidant, of course, I was like taking all day. I was like, this is amazing. Like, this person, this is a perfect pairing. Like, I like to take and like, take care of myself, receive, and this person loves to give. So I'm like, this is, this is a perfect match. But then after a while, you know, you realize they, they, everybody has a boiling point where they're like, okay, when, when the heck are you gonna, like, do something for me or when, when is it my turn to be helped or whatever. And you just. I was so boneheaded and I just didn't know because the FA was not kind of in real time saying when they needed a bit of help, when they needed a little bit of assistance, when they needed, you know, you to step up so they can take a break. I Was just sort of thinking that's their nature. They seem to be like. Like they have boundless energy and they're like a. Just like a work. Work beast. So I'm like, okay, they're good. I can just chill and they can just. They'll just keep doing what they do. But no, you find out after a while that, no, this is not how they want to be. And they. They want to be. They want to be able to put their hair down sometimes and relax and. And have somebody do things for them. But they won't. They won't ask you. They won't. They won't tell you outright, hey, like, I need help here. I need a break here. I need you to do this for me. There's just too much of a fear of, you know, what is it? Feeling weak or too much or a burden.

A (31:46)

Scared to lean on people and feel helpless. Like all of those hormones can come up. And so the, you know, to your point, fearful wardens do like to contribute. They usually have a big contribution need, so that's in there, and they like that. But then they move from a wound to simultaneously where they're like, scared of being unworthy. And so the answer is actually for fearful avoidance to learn to ask for help and open up more than for somebody else to read their mind. Right. And so it's the work for anybody listening who might be fearful, avoidant. It's your work to practice vulnerability and letting people in and learning to rely on people in small doses. So I'll just touch on a couple of quick comments here. Yeah, so Tox says, as an A plus student, the first question I always got for my 90 plus marks or where's the missing X percent? Yeah, no matter what it did, what I did, it wasn't enough to be a good daughter. And so that type of condition will create the sense of unworthiness or not good enough. So really powerful share. Yeah, it can always be worse. Mentality. Mindset. Exactly. Delilah, Chrissy says, I love you. Thank you so much for this content and providing this clarity. I'm FA with a DA partner. You'll appreciate Mike shares for sure. And we talked about attachment theory today and it was so great. I'm so glad to hear that. Tops as I do this, I always think that since I survived a war zone that I'm stronger. So I take on more than my fair share at work, friendships, romantic relationships, et cetera. And honestly, part of it is that. And there's this big mentality from that too, is like, okay, I have to Earn my worth. So everything has to be done properly. And then sometimes you become like hyper over functioning. You know, fearful ones tend to be big over functioners. And then when you're an over functioning, what happens? You end up being like, well I'll just do it, I can do it faster, I can just, I'll just take it on quickly. They won't do it properly. And a lot of that actually isolates you more than anything else. And so it's so important to be aware of and such a good question. So let's go into the next, the next wound here.

B (33:43)

I am powerless or I am helpless.

A (33:46)

Yeah, well we can put this together. So big wounds, powerless, helpless from fearful avoidance. A lot of it's growing up in an environment where you felt out of control and uncomfortable but didn't have the opportunity or ability to know how to navigate it. And so there becomes this big fear that like okay, what if I have to rely on other people and then they're chaotic? Well then I'm going to be helpless or powerless or what if I, you know, put myself in a position where I feel out of control and powerless again, I don't want that. And so a lot of fearful avoidance, it's also kind of goes hand in hand with that emotional over functioning theme where you work so hard to get away from having to repeat or feel the things you felt in your childhood. And so working so hard doesn't have to just mean in a work context, it can mean in like a relationship context, in a personal growth, it can be. So it's like this overdoing of things to try to not lean on people. And a lot of this, this is where you see the avoidance and the fearful avoidant attachment styles that they're not letting people in, they're not leaning on anybody else. Learning to open up, learning to rely on people. And one of the worst fears, I think for many fearful avoidance, it's so underrated coming from this core wound from an IAT perspective is that there's this dynamic where it's like, what if I have to actually survive by relying on other people for help? And it's such a big fear for so many fearful avoidance and something very worth noting. So I don't know if you want to go into that one for a minute. What you saw when dating people, how that would sort of manifest in their external behavior.

B (35:14)

Yeah, just kind of seeing that the person wouldn't want to open up too, too much like you would you get them to, they would share things and whatnot. But it seemed like there was a, a point that you'd hit where they wouldn't want to go too deep. So maybe not wanting to look weak or flawed or incompetent or anything like that. So just, you know, I could, I could see the person wasn't fully opening up, but I was definitely wasn't like pushing to like, no, you have to share all your deepest, you know, insecurities and vulnerabilities. But I just got a sense that that wasn't willing to be shared. And the thing, you could actually help me understand this as well. And I give my grandma as an example. So when you're saying I'm powerless and helpless, you know, you think of power, powerful. But my grandma, for sure, she was fa. A thousand percent. But like she was so powerful in the sense that she could have broken her leg and she wouldn't like tell anybody about it or like mention she was in pain or uncomfortable. And that's not a good thing, right? That's like, oh my gosh, like, you know, let us help you, please. But like, to me she was just such a powerful woman, but she also would rather die than, than inconvenience anyone or have somebody go out of their way to have to help her. So like I, I don't know if those two are related, like being powerless and then how an FA is actually like probably one of the most powerful people out there. But does that, does that do those sort of link?

A (36:52)

Yeah, totally. It's so interesting because it's like, it's this idea that you can't solve an internal problem with an external solution. So what you see when people have poor wounds that manifest is that they have this like overdrive to avoid the thing that they're trying not to feel. And so a lot of times, like the obvious example and analogy first is that if somebody feels not good enough, they usually do anything under the sun to feel good enough. They try to like work and grow and invest and do all these things. And so to the outside world, they're a very good enough person, but they will never feel good enough because it's an inside problem. And so the same thing happens in that like powerless piece. It's like, okay, I have to white knuckle through everything, push my way through everything, show up, be strong, don't show weakness. All these things are like, to feel powerful or empowered and it's like, well, sure, you can do all these things that make you over function and isolate you and put all this pressure on yourself, but it's much better to just reprogram the core wound to move through this fear and being powerless or helpless and to let people in and learn to rely on people and actually move through that rather than to put all that external pressure. So really, really great share.

B (37:56)

And then lastly, I know, I remember hearing for the I am powerless, helpless core wound, there's a fear of being in the wrong relationship. And is that also attached because dismissive avoidance, you know, I know for sure. I was like this before. I was always thinking, oh, I don't know if I'm in the right relationship. I think there's somebody better out there for me, I think there's somebody out there more perfect. Really. I just wanted somebody who would. There was no fighting or no problems any time, which is. Is impossible. But back then I had that belief that there was someone out there perfect for you. But I guess the A's version of fear being in the wrong relationship is having somebody who they won't know how to. They'll feel like they owe them or like has something up on them. Like if they share too much, that person's going to use it against them somehow. I guess those are the two different differentiators there. Like the fear of being in the wrong relationship 100%.

A (38:53)

And some of that can be trapped. That can definitely trapped core wound too. As we know. Fearful avoidance, like, oh my God, I'm gonna be trapped in the wrong relationship. I can't leave. It's gonna be really difficult. But it'll often be this dynamic of like, well, if I'm trapped in the wrong relationship, that's super painful. But also, you know, here I am. And if I do choose to let my guard down, if I do choose to let this person in and then they don't show up for me and I emotionally rely on them, or if I physically rely on them for something, if we pay the bills, split them and, and I couldn't pay the bills without them. And we're, you know, in the, the condo that we're living in, whatever it might be. This fear of relying on people and then not being able to see them follow through. And the degree of helplessness and just feeling like you're. You're caught in an environment or situation where you don't have control or can't do something that very much like trapped and helpless and powerless altogether. Which is a very common theme or manifestation for fearful avoidance that they'll, they'll feel very frequently. And that's that avoidance side come in where they're like, I don't want to be trapped. I don't want to be helpless. And that's why fearful avoidance struggle the most with like bigger commitments, small commitments. They're like, okay, no problem. We'll commit to date night this week, we'll commit to hanging out the following week. We'll commit to. But then they're like, oh, moving in. Oh, getting married. Well, having children. Oh, you know, that's where they're like, wait, I don't know. And that's where you'll see that, that pulling back for sure.

B (40:14)

But then isn't the vetting process then for even like getting into a relationship with some someone, isn't that like a huge, long, lengthy process for an FA just to make sure like all the boxes are ticked as far as can I trust this person if I'm vulnerable, can I open up to them? Like, you know, just. I hear a lot of times, you know, fas when they're not in a relationship, things can be going great, career is going great, social life's going great, they're doing activities, going to the gym, going nuts. But then when they get in a relationship, then like anxiety city comes up. Fight or flight. Like what the heck is happening here? So yeah, my question is, I always thought dismissive avoidance were the ones who are the take the longest to commit because of their own wounding. But FAs don't. They also take a long, long time to make the leap into a relationship because there's so many fears at play, 100%.

A (41:08)

And they'll be around big commitments too. Especially big commitments. Things that are smaller, they're more okay with. But the big ones. But to your point, they should be vetting but often fearful ones. It's, it's like I would almost give the analogy that dismissive avoidance. People say it like a high level dismissive avoidance are so good at self soothing. But like when you look closer, they're just good at self numbing. They're not actually like soothing themselves. And I would say the same thing for fearful avoidance. Like fearful wouldn't seem like they're vetting a long time, but they're usually not. They're usually just moving between people pleasing and then fear. So it's almost like they people please. And then they're like, wait, what if I'm making the wrong decision and they pull away? And that's what creates that, like pinballing that back and forth, that ambivalence. And what an ideal situation is that is that you actually vet what are my needs? What are my standards? Let me ask questions. To see if this person will meet them. Let me get to know somebody, let me see how they deal with conflict. And we'll try to work through things and like, you know, to vet properly would be the way, but instead for women's kind of oscillate between wanting to be all in and then fearing it. And so they go back and forth and they drag their feet. And rather than like actually betting in a relationship as that healthy output of life, I'm somebody who like really needs to make sure that we know how to move through conflicts and that's a non negotiable. I might ask somebody like, hey, how do you address conflict? Like, rather than asking those, those pertinent questions and getting to the bottom of things, it's more just like fear and then interest and then fear then interest. And so it ends up dragging out for sure.

B (42:32)

That's tough. Okay, do you want to move to the next core wound?

A (42:38)

Let's do it. We'll do that and then we'll, we'll answer a question, we'll touch on a comment here or two.

B (42:42)

Okay. We could either do I am alone or I am trapped. I think we kind of touched on I am trapped.

A (42:49)

Let's do. Yeah, let's do alone and abandoned together. Because those two are big, like you know, fearful avoidance. Two of the big wounds are abandoned and alone. And I think that fearful avoidance don't realize that they have an I am alone core wounds. But the abandoned is very much like people will leave me. So fearful wounds have that very anxious side to them. If they feel somebody pulling away, they might try to cling on and they'll often like try to really push sometimes too. Though interestingly fearful ones, if they feel like somebody's going to abandon them, they can also shut down really hard. So remembering that fearful wounds both activate and deactivate. So they can feel like somebody might abandon them and be like, all right, I got before you hurt me, I'm going to push you away. So that can be a huge theme and it's something very dysregulating for fearful avoidance. A lot of FA think that they're anxious at the start, but what's also interesting is that this fear of being alone so people will hear that. It's not like people wouldn't generally enjoy their alone time. They're not like, oh, I'm so scared to end up alone. But they have this big wound because they usually had to deal with a lot of things outside of their, their time. Like you probably did grow up really fast. As a kid, if you became fearful avoidant in childhood, you probably had a lot of huge responsibilities before, you know, maybe when you should have had more of a childhood and more freedom. And so fearful avoidance have this, like, deep underlying thing that, like, I always have to deal with things alone. The pressure is always on just me. I'm the one to figure things out or have to fix it for everybody, or I'm the one that's gonna have to jump in and save the day. And nobody supports me or this fear of, like, okay, does nobody care about me the way I care about other people? And so there can be this sort of isolating loneliness or aloneness for fearful avoidant in that. Also fearful avoidance, not realizing that they so frequently keep themselves isolated by not asking for help, not asking for support, not being vulnerable and opening up about what their needs are in relationships. But you'll see these themes. And then that abandonment can also create that activation and that. That fear, but also the deactivation. So I'm curious what you would generally see in people you dated.

B (44:48)

Yeah, just the. The need to, like, take on everything themselves. And then I'm trying to think if they finally did ask me to do something or I just volunteered. Like, let's say I. I'm like, okay, I should do the dishes. You know, like, my partner's done it the last many times, and then I go to do it, and I'm thinking, okay, I'm a rock star boyfriend here. I should be, you know, get. Get some praise. But then they see the dishes, and they see there might be, like, a little piece on one of the dish or like, one of the glasses isn't perfect, and they're just ripping on me, and I'm just like, what the heck? And then they're like, I'll just do it myself. So it's almost this, like, they don't want to ask for help, but then when they do, if it's not done, like, perfectly, they're just like, just give me that. Just. I'll just do it. You just go sit down and go on the couch or whatever. So I always just found that interesting that even when I did try to help and be helpful, I felt like my partner was like, you know, they felt that they had the best way to do it. And if you can't do something absolutely perfect, like, don't even. Don't bother doing it.

A (45:55)

So that is like the typical fada struggle. So as somebody.

B (46:01)

Story on that one with you and Graham in the beginning, for sure.

A (46:07)

Yeah. Like, that's Part of what made me return to like learning about attachment theory in more detail and then like developing integrated attachment theory is that, you know, I'd see those things and I learned like, oh my gosh, I'm playing with these patterns. But I remember with, with him one time, like there was a time with the dishes and I was more. I had done a lot of work already, so it wasn't as strong, but it was definitely stronger in past relationships. But I remember it was about the dishes. I had done the dishes a bunch. He hadn't done them in a while and I didn't know how to ask yet. I still have work to do on that. And before, and then he did them, he jumped in. I was actually playing that scenario in my head when you were saying that. I was thinking of how that was. And, and then what I made it mean is I'm like, oh, even when he does the dishes, he doesn't care to do them properly. And it's more of like, see, it's always. And at the time I caught that pretty quick. But you can see how it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because then you're still telling yourself the story that like, that you're alone in it, you always have to do it. And instead of being like, hey, I'm receiving support and like, I can appreciate the support, I can ask for more help if I need it, I can ask, hey, I really appreciate you did the dishes. Thank you so much. Hey, next time I always like, make sure that this area is nice and cleaned. And instead of like asking for more support or communicating and conveying appreciation, but also, you know, not just appreciation, but also like clarity, like if there's something that was left out or missed, like, you can share that. But when you, when you go into your own wounds and you don't know how to work through your core wounds first, and those are up, then you actually create these self fulfilling prophecies where exactly the thing that you're trying to avoid, you end up creating for yourself by reigniting that same old theme. It's like, oh, look. And then the person doing the dishes is like, well, why am I doing the dishes? Why would I bother?

B (47:54)

And yeah, then they feel criticized and that they suck and they're like, I'm not gonna try this again. But I understand what you're saying too. Like, if somebody doesn't do it really well, you could see that as, oh, I might not. Sort of, you don't care about me enough to take the time to do a really good job when really Just some people are. They're knuckleheads that, you know those things.

A (48:15)

There are a million things. But that's why it's so important to recognize our belief bias, you know, for people listening, like, yeah, that your beliefs will just get you to go right back down that same old rabbit hole. And then, like, you miss out on these things, and it's like, you don't always want to be the one always doing the dishes, do you? Like, like. And the solves for those things. And, like, you know, because obviously my husband and I have been together for, like, going on 11 years, and. And, you know, I was lucky enough to already be, like, in the work prior to dealing with him and working with people and seeing some of these things and having, like, our own little things to sort out. But, you know, you kind of get to a point where you're like, well, if you don't recognize these things, you recreate them. And so whatever we're so afraid of, like, the more you end up in the situation, it's like, well, if you always criticize somebody for doing the dishes, instead of being like, hey, why don't we just make a plan where we each have different turns that we do with different chores? Problem solved. But if that's not being done, then you just end up in this strange situation where you're back and forth and you're nitpicking and your core wounds show up and. And ultimately, I mean, I'm a big believer that core wounds are, like, the biggest reason that we have a downfall in our relationships. And so healing them is so important.

B (49:27)

And just one last thing that I was thinking, like, in some households, they understand, like, if you get a kid to learn a new skill, the first time they do it, it's probably not going to be great. But then it's something that takes a while to get good at it and be really proficient in. Whereas that phase, if they didn't do something kind of right the first time around, they might have got, you know, in trouble or a bad reaction. So I guess, you know, they're putting their projection onto the person who's doing the dishes, and if it's not done right away, they get upset or get scared, you know, something bad's gonna happen. But really, like, if somebody's doing something for you, like, you should be thankful, number one. And there's no problem in not criticizing, but just letting them know, hey, you did such a great job there. Thank you so much. But next time, you know, it would be so helpful if you see those Little nuggets on the top of the plate. Yeah, just can you use that scrubber thing? And that gets rid of them right away. And that would be amazing. And then you're like, okay, cool, yeah, no problem. But yeah, when somebody's just ripping on you right away, when you're like, I thought I was doing a good thing, it can be kind of, you know.

A (50:37)

Upsetting, defeating, totally, 100%. And then you don't realize that you're keeping yourself locked in that same isolating cycle. And so. Yeah, I love that. So, so why don't we go into just at a high level here. We'll go into and I'll, we'll come back to a question or two here. But you know, when we dive into all of this, or I'm just reading some of these comments. So when we, if you want to learn to reprogram. So we have a lot of like really in depth reprogramming tools in PDFs with like worksheets and workbooks and all this stuff. And of course we actually have a promotion right now where you can go into pds, take a seven day free trial and actually keep a somatic healing course for life. It talks about your nervous system and your window of tolerance and all these different things. So you can check that out and I'll put the link down below. But the other thing is that as a general rule, there's a lot of ways to reprogram, but we're going to start with an easy one. Okay? So we're going to leave it off with a really easy high level reprogramming tool. So I want you guys to think of your core wound. So the wound that was biggest for you, so maybe it was betrayed or abandoned or helpless or trapped, okay. And want you to think of those wounds and I want you to. And we're going to do this is called behavioral reprogramming. But I want you to think, you know, of that wound. Hold it in your mind for a second and then I want you to make a list from 1 to 10. Okay? You can give yourself a rating or a score from 1 to 10. How much do I keep myself in the cycles of these wounds occurring? So how much do I trap myself in things? What would that look like? Maybe you don't actually speak up for your boundaries. So you're in a lot of situations where you feel trapped. Maybe you put your needs on the back burner so you feel burnt out and trapped. Maybe you say yes to things when you mean no, so you feel trapped. Okay, if you're a band, if you feel abandoned, what were you abandoning yourself? You know, maybe you people please too frequently. Maybe you don't show up to focus on your own mission and vision and dreams and goals because you're too focused on everybody else. So I want you to think of where you do these things in relationship to self. And then if you almost had like a third column down your page, your third column would be, what am I going to do differently? And research from a neuroplasticity perspective shows us that if we repeat patterns for 21 days, at a bare minimum, where we fire and wire emotions, if we get repetition, emotion and imagery from doing things, and we do this repeatedly across 21 day cycles, we're highly likely to build neural pathways or neural networks that are strong enough to stick. So neural pathways are kind of like muscles in your brain. If you don't work out your bicep muscle, it shrinks. If we stop, you know, going through the same patterns, we're not going to be refeeding them and strengthening them. And if we create new ones, we are strengthening those instead. So in this particular case, it might be like, okay, if I abandon myself by never sharing with people what I feel and what I need, and so I keep this isolation or maybe by taking everything on for everybody else at the expense of my own goals, well, what am I going to do differently? I'm going to start speaking up. So once a day, we want one. One a day activity for 21 days, we want one activity we can do every single day where you are actively speaking up for your feelings, letting people know about your needs, having conversations like you want to have something that you're doing once a day to counteract that behavior. And then what you get is you get repetition, emotion. You get the imagery, the actual visual experience of what you're physically doing in your behaviors each day. And this is a form of behavioral reprogramming that allows us to actually change the output and experience. So if anybody is confused about that and says, here, here's my pattern, what do I do instead? You're welcome to share it in the chat and we'll share with you what you can do instead. And just in the meantime, I'll answer, I'll share a question here, Mike, if you want to answer it. Let's see here. Heather, I want to answer your question, but I see that your question. I think you're missing a part to it, though. Oh, here we go. So here Heather says, hi, Tyeese and Mike, I'm in the peak of my healing journey after three years with the DA and the textbook dismantling, collapsing and eventual discard. Also, it was a rekindled romance from 28 years ago, but we were never officially dating as it was long distance. He was married for 26 years and widowed. Returning was also long distance. He proposed in December and ended it in February, deprioritized and made me an option. I stayed because I loved him. He was monkey branching into a new relationship that was easy and convenient. He's 22 years, 22 years younger. He's 61. In three years, I saw myself go from secure to anxious. Yet I see FA in me. Or what's the difference between FA and people pleaser? Okay, so basically Heather's question is, in this particular case, what do we see? I can start to what do we see? We can. I was looking for your facial reactions. Okay. So I know if you don't see the question, it's hard to follow. So essentially what Heather's saying is like, what happened? Like, am I anxious? Am I fearful? Avoidance. I see fa, I see ap. So what you want to look for, and I'm sorry that happened to you, that's a really difficult situation to be in. But what you're ideally looking for is what are you rooted in? So are you rooted in more activating strategies where you're more anxious, you're trying to keep closeness and proximity and that's your number one priority, or do you find yourself moving back and forth? Where. Where with people. With dating now with the idea of relationships. Sometimes you feel like you're anxious and you want to be close to people, but other times you feel scared of being hurt, the need to push people back. You. You are scared to rely on people, have a hard time opening up about things that are vulnerable to you. And do you have big core wounds that are more rooted in just abandonment, or do you have core wounds that are like abandonment, betrayed, Also fear of being trapped. And when you start to see that sort of that, if you can imagine, they're like scales. You're going to see which way you. You are weighing. So if you're more like, I'm always wanting closeness, my biggest fears are abandonment, exclusion, being disliked. You're going to be more anxious if on the flip side, you're seeing that a lot of your wounds are more around being both hot and cold, anxious and having the abandonment fears, but also fear of betrayal, wanting to keep people at arm's length, needing to deactivate and create space to feel safe, looking for flaws, fear of being trapped. If you're seeing both sides there, then you're more rooted in fearful avoidant attachment. So great, great question. And can you do an example for the betrayal wound? So let's do an example for the betrayal wound too. So the betrayal wound for the reprogramming would be what's the opposite of betrayal loyalty? So you want to look at, well, where do I disavow my own loyalty? Where do I betray myself? Right. Where do I not have loyalty to myself? And you could look through all of the seven areas of life. So you could look in like career, financial, mental, emotional, spiritual, physical, relationship areas of life and you can make a list of all the ways you betray yourself and then next to them all the things you're going to do differently. So if I betray myself at work by saying yes to projects that are actually a no for me, I'm going to practice saying no to those things and standing up for them. If I say yes to always paying for my friends every time that we go out for dinner, and then I never actually ask for anything in return, and maybe you're stressed for money too. Okay, well then you're gonna have to speak up more, right? So you're gonna look for those things and do the opposite. That's actually feeding loyalty to self. So I don't know if there's any.

B (58:13)

Would that also be strengthening self trust 100%. Yeah. So you know, one of the things is to, you know, let's say you have your non negotiable, so you're going into like a dating situation and you want to have your non negotiable set. Okay. What you will not sort of settle for what you're not looking for in a relationship and what you are. But self trust is really broken when let's say somebody has a non negotiable that you, you told yourself you're not going to date them, but you're like, ah, but they're good looking and you know, they were pretty funny and we got along well and you still went along with it. And then maybe you know, two, three weeks, two months down the line, that very thing that you said you weren't gonna go for again, you did. Well that, that really broke self trust. Right. So to strengthen your self trust, you have to really be congruent with your words and your actions. Just how when somebody does that to you, that's very triggering. You have to hold yourself to that exact standard and make sure that you're doing the things that you, you know, that you should be doing and then not doing the things that you shouldn't be doing. So I guess that's another part of the betrayal reprogram.

A (59:21)

So good. Such a great example of that, too. That was so beautiful. You're so welcome. And yeah, the opposite of rejection is acceptance and finding ways to accept yourself. Exactly. So excluded or not prioritize. Is that a wound? Yeah, I am. Excluded is a huge core wound. Casey, you said. I definitely see the pattern. Not sure if it's abandonment or betrayal. Yeah, it could be excluded, abandoned, or betrayed. But in that particular case, you want to make sure that you are including yourself, including yourself in your decisions, your choices, when you're agreeing to do things. Did you think it through for yourself, putting yourself out there to include yourself into things, being vulnerable, and also making sure that when it comes to that sense of feeling excluded, that you're choosing people that you want to surround yourself with who are inclusive, people who are thoughtful, people who are going to show up for you in that way and having your standards right for. For those types of relationships you surround yourself with. So, great question. And we'll do one more.

B (60:21)

Could there be a wound underneath the exclusion wound? Meaning, like, when someone doesn't invite me or when a group doesn't invite me to a party that must make. Make me seem like I'm not good enough or there's something wrong with me? Like, could there be something underneath what you're telling yourself if you're being excluded from something?

A (60:39)

Yeah. So you can have multiple wounds there. So excluded is a core wound. But you're going to see that we can definitely have multiple core wounds. So it can be like, I'm exclud. I'm disliked and rejected, or I'm excluded and I'm unlovable, or I'm excluded and my friends abandoned me. Right. Or. So it can be any of those things for sure. But you can look the. In those cases, a great chair and a great point because, like, sometimes we just focus on one wound and sometimes there's a couple in there to really look for. So we'll do this last question, then we'll wrap for today, which is would it be okay? This is from Tanya. To ask my significant other how these wounds show up for him. So, Mike, I'm going to flip this question to you. I don't want it to feel like I'm a therapist, but I'm interested to know. So I'm. I'm curious. Like, let's assume that the partner is dismissive, avoidant. Tanya, you can tell us what you think his attachment style is. But let's assume that Tanya's partner is dismissive avoidant. What do you think the best approach would be to. To address a dismissive avoidant in their core wounds? To share about it. Like, should she share and say, hey, these are the core wounds. What are yours? So it's a little less. Or what would you think the best approach is?

B (61:44)

Yeah, I always think it's when you're. Because if you're going to go to them and say, like, hey, like, there's something wrong with you. Like, you need. You really need to fix these things because you're. You're pretty messed up. That'll be. That'll probably not be taken well. And they'll get defensive. They'll be like, no, I don't want to go there. But if you show it as, like, an educational learning moment, like, hey, there's this process where I did this quiz to find out what my core wounds are. There's these things called core wounds that we can accumulate and have been running our subconscious since childhood. So, like, a lot of the reasons we struggle with a lot of things is we have these core wounds and we don't even know what they are. I've done this little diagnostic test, and it looks like my core wounds are whatever. I'm not good enough. I'm unsafe. There's something wrong with me. Do you. Like, if you look at this list, does any of those resonate with you? Like, have you ever felt any of these things? Or just say, like, here's the quiz. Or, like, the diagnostic tool to see what your core wounds are, if you're interested, and just say, like, it's. For me, it's been such a huge help because now that I know what to focus on, I can really, you know, change in this area. But I also think you need to, like, leave things with something with people. Sometimes you can't just say, like, do it now. Like, just stand over them and wait till they. Till they, you know.

A (63:06)

Dismissive avoidant. It doesn't go well.

B (63:08)

Yeah. So, like, you. You kind of got to plant seeds and then just present it in a way that's, you know, going to help them and. And benefit them in their lives. And just don't expect them to. They have to do it right then and there. Like, maybe we'll do it later down the road. But yeah, I just think kind of showing by example, letting them know how it helped you and, you know, just presenting it to them that way.

A (63:35)

I love that. That's perfect. And yeah, Rhonda says, where's the core wound diagnostic located? If you take your attachment style test, it will tell your attachment cell and from core wounds are actually integrated attachment theory parts. So they're unique to the, to our type of attachment work we do. So if you take the attachment cell quiz, you'll actually get a report that says these are all the core wounds of your attachment style. So great question. Okay, well, that is it for today. Thank you all so much for being here. It was so fun to connect with more of our community in here. And thank you for all the amazing questions and shares. And I feel like it might be Caitlin here as well. I just keep seeing somebody in the chat. So thanks to Caitlin. If Caitlin decided to tune in here, I really appreciate that. But good night, everybody. Thank you and we will see you. So I know next week's Thanksgiving, we might just do like a recorded podcast that will stream up here for the long weekend, but then we'll be back the following Saturday live at 11:30 Eastern Time. So we'll see you then soon. And yeah, looking forward to doing more of these. And have a great week. And happy early Thanksgiving to everybody who's in the U.S. bye, everybody. See you.