Mike Dazio (2:12)

For sure. This is a tough one for people. And we were talking about this for the podcast. Sort of when it happens to us, you almost really just want to, like, directly go at the person and be like, what is going on? It doesn't feel good. You know, like when somebody you love and care about, you know when their behaviors change, you can tell when something's wrong. You're like, can you just spit it out? Like, let me know. But if you're dealing with somebody who's avoidant, that is not going to happen. Good effect. Like, even though you really want to know, and it's probably giving you a little bit of anxiety, we sort of have six key steps to make headway. When somebody's going through a difficult time, they could be experiencing something difficult. We don't know that just yet and are shutting you out. So this can apply to, like, your kids, family member, friends, and just, you know, by nature, we want to be there for someone, so we need to learn how to do this effectively. But also while taking ourselves into consideration, we also don't want to, like, end up codependent or enmeshed sort of behaviors. Like, someone's journey is their journey, and if they're going through something tough, they might need to be dealing with that themselves. But today we're just going to talk about some of the things we can do to kind of be there to support and then maybe get a little bit of information of how we can help or not help or et cetera, and to alleviate some of our stress and anxiety when this happens.

Kati Morton (3:19)

Before we go into the six steps, I just want to share. Before we were talking about this podcast and you said, oh, like, does this ever happen to you? Like, maybe with one of your parents? Because we were talking about when this happens in our life, and I was like, I don't let my parents be like that. Like, if my parents ever. Either my parents are, like, shutting down or something, I'm like, excuse me, we're going to talk about this. Like, there's a zero percent chance that we're going to pretend like, everything. Something's fine, I can tell something's fine. Like, I really address it. And I was kind of laughing with you about how I've done the work for a long time and how, you know, I haven't run into these things personally in my life very much in a while. As we started talking a second ago, I thought of this memory and I have this very vivid memory of I was like 19, I was in a relationship, and I remember the person at the time being like, clearly something is wrong. Why don't you just talk to me? And it's when I was still fearful avoidant. And I remember them being like, just talk to me, just say it. And I remember thinking like, looking at this person and being like, there's a 0% chance I'm saying anything. But you know, it's so funny because it's like I feel sometimes distant from, from that experience now. But I was that. Like I was somebody who, when I would be upset, I didn't know how to talk about things. Talking about things as a fearful avoidant felt extremely vulnerable, very confronting when I would feel like there was something bothering me or somebody hurt me or did something I didn't like. My first go to thought was like, well, of course I'm not going to tell you anything because you just hurt me. So if you hurt me, why am I then going to be more vulnerable to you? Like, it just felt so counterintuitive not realizing that that was like talking through things and hashing things that when there are issues, ability to actually move through that and build that out with somebody is the very thing that makes relationships strong. It's the very thing that allows relationships to evolve. So anyways, just relatable topic for sure. But also it's a tricky one.

Mike Dazio (4:54)

And just to quickly add to that, isn't that just a strategy in itself where somebody might have wronged you and done something you didn't like? There might be poor wounds around being really forthcoming about what they did, maybe appearing weak or, you know, thinking the person's gonna think negatively of you. So like not saying anything, you're in essence punishing them a bit. You're letting them like, you know you did something wrong. And I'm just gonna be silent for a while to let you feel how you made me feel. Was that kind of an FA thing or is that more of just a not good communication tool to use?

Kati Morton (5:27)

Great question. To be honest, there were definite times that I did that as a fearful avoidant where I would be like, I'm gonna just retreat and like it was kind of out of spite or like, whatever. I think deep down sometimes it was like a subconscious strategy. To get seen and heard when I didn't know how. Like, if I'm clearly retreating, then you're gonna check what's wrong. And that was there. But I would actually say more often than not, that was secondary. I think more often it was like this big thing like, well, you just hurt me. So now why would I go back and be more vulnerable to the person who hurt me? I saw somebody hurting me, even if it was by accident, as like just such a violation. And then I had to go into this, like self protection, like almost feeling emotionally unsafe and definitely weak a little bit. Or I really had a big wound around, like, I am stupid, which is a big core wound for people. Like, I'm foolish if I open back up after you've just heard or wronged. And I would have a lot of this narrative in my mind where I would be like, I'm just never gonna need you again. And that was like the way I would cope with things. And then, sure, the, the. There was like a secondary part where it was like, okay, and if I pull away, maybe you're gonna want to see what's wrong. Or. And that was there sometimes, not always, but that was definitely there sometimes consistently enough where it was. I would call it a theme when I was a fearful avoidant in my life. But the funny part is that when I go back and think of being like that in my life, I carried this, like, quiet expectation that people are just never gonna hurt you if they cared about you. And that's not reality. Like, people make mistakes sometimes. And so, you know, what really matters and where trust is built is our ability to, like, communicate through those mistakes. Be open, be vulnerable, See somebody, make the effort to, like, recover from that mistake, apologize, take accountability and work on that behavior with you to improve it and vice versa. You know, that's what you do from somebody else's end, from your end as well. Right. And so, But I didn't get that at the time. And not understanding that and carrying that subconscious expectation of, well, somebody should be perfect in the situation was the very thing that actually kept me the most isolated at the time and kept everybody, you know, at arm's length and seemed to reinforce, look, nobody really cares to see and hear you, but it's because I was never letting myself really be seen and heard.

Mike Dazio (7:25)

That makes so much sense. And for me it was the same with a twist. It was more, this person doesn't understand me. They're doing the thing that I don't want them to do. They just don't know what I need, but I wasn't explaining myself and I wasn't saying exactly what I needed.

Kati Morton (7:38)

So of course an example of a time where that happens.

Mike Dazio (7:42)

This goes to step number one of what we're going to talk about today. I'll just go through the step and then I'll, I'll give you sort of a broad example. Like, of course we want to like push someone and get to know what's wrong right away because we feel like, okay, we want to, we don't want to see our partner or someone we care about in pain. We want to offer our help and assistance. But you have to realize, like, them not opening up can be because of a fear or a wound. So it's not because they're, you know, really wanting you to push and be like, hey, like, come on, I can help you. There can be a wound under there. Like, there can be a lot of shame, there can be a lot of guilt, there can be a lot of just feeling like they don't know how to handle the situation. So feeling weak and really just want to hide. So maybe more than likely, and I know for myself too, maybe they tried to open up in the past and it like, didn't go well at all. And it, you actually end up ended up feeling worse than you felt when you went to the person to get some relief or feel better. So yeah, just the point is we're not going to make headway by being pushy. Could do the opposite. We'll make more headway. Just sign up trying to empathize with the person and understanding. Okay, my partner seems to be dismissive, avoidant, so he might, you know, I know he doesn't sue through other people. He probably needs some time to sort of figure it out in his head a little logically first and regulate his nervous system before he'll come to me and let me know what's going on. So just try to emphasize, like, don't use your, your gut shot reaction to like, okay, like, you got to tell me what's wrong right now. Just sort of have some empathy, knowing that that might not be the best thing at the moment for them and myself, like, broadly, like going to my parents sometimes for like, I had a problem or I wasn't feeling good about something. And they just go into like advice right away, like unsolicited advice and it's, well mean. They think, okay, like, I, I think I know the solution here. But the thing is, like, I'm not you. Like, what you would do in this situation might be completely Different. And a lot of times whatever they were suggesting was like, completely not. Didn't resonate with what I thought would help. So it would just end up being frustrating. And I just remember after a certain point, know at what age I was like, I'm not going to go to them for anything. You know, they're wonderful. I love them, but it doesn't feel good. They don't know me. I feel like they don't know me and know what I need. I'm just, yeah, going to keep it to myself. Got to figure it out on my own. So that's what I did for like, most of my life until working on attachment wounds and whatnot. And then just realizing, like, it's. It's so simple but so effective, letting somebody know what you need. Like, hey, I'm not feeling good right now. What I just really need is someone to like, kind of spitball what I'm going through and just kind of figure it out in my head. But it really helps when I can talk it out loud and somebody's just sort of listening and, and holding space for me and then like, I'll do that. And a lot of times just by like talking and putting it outside of my head, I'm formulating, you know, answers and seeing it from a different perspective. And really that person didn't have to do much, but it, it was helpful and that's really what I needed. And then there are times where I might need advice somebody on, but then like, know your audience. So, like, let's say I need advice on. Okay, I'm struggling with my business and, and whatever. I'm not going to go to my friend who's like a big sports guy and not into business. I'm going to go to somebody who knows business and ask them, hey, I need advice. And then you're getting advice what you need. So anyway, long way of saying so important to. As the person who's going through something to ask how you'd like to be supported because that can be interpreted 100 different ways by a hundred different people.

Kati Morton (11:00)

I love that. As you were saying that I thought of like, I remember. So like, obviously I've been with Graham for, for a long time, like 10 years or so. And he was dismissive, avoidant. When we first started dating, I was still a little fearful avoiding in too. And we both had like, done some prior work and like both, like maybe 50, secure. I remember like when he would open up, like, it was kind of like in the first couple years, like very rare and like he Wouldn't, like, compl. Like, I remember the first time we were dating for, like, a year, and he, like, kind of, like, talked all about work and the things that were frustrating him at his workplace and stuff like that. And I remember it was just like, a normal, like, venting session. Like, he wasn't, like, gossiping or being rude about people. Like, he just was, like, sharing what was, like, weighing on him. And I remember after he was like, like, I'm so sorry. I just complained for so long. And I remember thinking it was so interesting that he saw, like, what to me was such a normal human thing to just, like, share what's on your heart or what's bothering you as, like, him being a complainer. Like, I was like, oh, that's so interesting. And I remember trying to explain to him, like, that does not feel like complaining. Like, it's okay. But I also remember early on, kind of trying to, like, when he would open up, I would be like, oh, my gosh, he's going through something. I really wanted to be there and trying to, like, kind of share advice. And then I realized over time, like, pretty quick, that, like, the best thing I can do for him is, like, literally just let him externalize it and, like, vocalize everything. And this thing would always happen. This still happens in our relationship to this day. This happened, like, three days ago, where he. He'll come and he'll, like, be like, you can tell. And now he, like, he's been secure for a long time, so he'll open up, like, frequently, and there's something he was kind of going through with, like, a work thing. And he came and he was, like, talking about it, and. And, like, I just know, like, he just needs me to sit there and just listen and ask questions. And then he always does this thing at the end, and it's so funny where I'll be like, gosh, that was so helpful. And I will ser, like, nothing. Like, all of them just sat there and just, like, heard him and, like, ask questions. But that's like. Like, I think that's almost one of the things that dismissive wouldn't seem to need the most when they're venting, because I think of, like, dismissive, avoidant friends or family members that I have too. And, like, they don't want you really to solve it for them. They want to solve it for themselves. So they value their own autonomy and independence. And so if they go to somebody, they want to, like, hash it out and be asked questions. And I think it helps them talk through Things to, like, externalize their ideas and start putting things together. But the actual need to, like, have somebody be like, here's your map, and what you should do. If I find that I, like, know what Graham's version of that would be, I find that if I say it to him instead of just let him, like, get through it himself, it's, like, less helpful for him than if I just, like, ask questions for. For him to, like, map through everything. So it's just so interesting that you say that, because I think it. Sometimes it goes against their need for autonomy, too, like, as person. And I don't think, like, our needs don't change too much. Right. So, like, obviously, Graham's, like, securely attached now and has been for quite a long time. But, like, even when you become secure, like, a lot of your needs stay the same, your wounds go away, your dysregulated nervous system stops being like that so frequently, your ability to, like, communicate improves dramatically. Like, there's these pillars that change, but, like, our needs stay pretty sound and consistent on either side of insecure. Securely attached.

Mike Dazio (13:50)

Yeah, I love all that. And, like, dismissive avoidance can feel. They'll feel criticized or feel like, oh, man, this person's telling me how I'm, you know, screwing up or not doing well by saying, you should do this, you should do that. Really? When you ask questions. Yeah. Like you said, you're empowering the person to come up with their own solutions.

Kati Morton (14:07)

Yeah.

Mike Dazio (14:07)

You're also, by asking questions, allowing them to see different perspectives that they might not have considered. So I think definitely with a DA like, posing questions goes a long way because you're. You're getting them to come up with the. The answer themselves of what they might need most, but not having the question there, they're just sort of stuck in the same perspectives.

Kati Morton (14:24)

I was gonna say just for people, too, who are like, well, what questions do you ask? Like, I'll often be like, okay, so, like, what do you think the root of the problem is? Like, I'll ask that a lot. Like, if somebody's stuck, like, even dismiss avoidant, like, family members or friends, if they're, like, stuck and they're trying to clearly hasht, I'll be, okay, like, what's the actual problem? Because I find that that is really helpful for them to be like, this is the actual problem. And then I'll be like, is there anything else? A lot of the time, too. Like, is. Are there multiple parts to the problem? Because there's a problem, and it's like, a person problem. And then like an infrastructure problem or something. And then once they've like really honed in on the problem, dismissive wins are really good problem solvers for the most part. So then I'll be like, like okay, so what would you, what would make you feel better? What would you need to solve the problem? And I'll just like ask questions like that that are just like so simple. You don't have to do any other work really. And they'll be like, oh, and this and this. And then they usually feel. So just for anybody who's like what kind of questions would you ask to a family member, friend or a partner going through that? I find those to be like helpful framing.

Mike Dazio (15:18)

I think asking too, like when, when you take yourself outside of it. What would you give advice to somebody who is going through this situation? You know what I mean? And then you're like oh, I would tell them to do this, this, this. And you're like like okay, like that's probably the best thing to do. That or the one, this, this one is kind of tough when somebody's going through something really rough. You could say like okay, let's say your 12 year old or 10 year old daughter came to you with this problem. You know, maybe it's like a relationship problem with a boyfriend or whatnot. What would you, if they were going through the same thing and your 12 year old daughter was going through that, what advice would you give her? And I find people can really like give amazing advice for how they would, you know, tell their daughter to act. They might not be doing the right thing, what they should be, but when they put themselves in a different position and give advice to what they would do towards someone that they love and care for like so much, they can kind of draw out some really, really good points of what they probably should be doing themselves.

Kati Morton (16:11)

So I really like that. I think that's awesome.

Mike Dazio (16:14)

Number two, somebody's stonewalling or shutting you out. Try to evaluate how they process things according to their needs. Kind of what we touched on already but like we assume that everybody would need the same thing that we would need if we're strugg. I know people, if they're struggling, they want to touch and affection and, and to be held. Some people just want to talk about it with everybody and anybody. It just helps to bounce it off as many people as possible. So just know like understanding of an individual, if you're somebody who's known them for a while, you kind of sort of see their patterns, look at their history, past Experiences. So really just try to put yourself in their shoes versus yours.

Kati Morton (16:50)

I literally think that cannot be understated because the amount of times that you'll think like, oh, okay, so I have a friend who' dismissive, avoidant. And she said that she had a boyfriend who was anxiously attached and she said, oh my gosh, we would get into arguments and he would want to like cuddle and get all close and try to solve it together and sit down. And she was like, that was the biggest stressor for me. Like when I'm like not feeling good towards somebody, like the last thing I want is somebody to be like all touchy feely with me. Like, it's just like repulsive at the time. And it's just like I need space. And it's because that's their way of protecting themselves. So in a way when you're like, okay, we're in an argument, but like, let's solve it. Let's get all cuddled up together to solve it. Like that's not like, that's where the anxious person comes from. And obviously that person was just doing like the absolute best he could and coming from like a really well intentioned place. But it's funny how we like accidentally miss the mark with people because we see people as, as we are instead of as they are. And you know, it doesn't mean that we don't get to that point, but it means like, hey, when you know that this person's way of protecting themselves is to push away, then you can be mindful of that and you can do things like to slowly move back in that direction where you then come to that space rather than thinking like, this is the way that we're going to solve the problem because accidentally you forget to consider somebody else in their truth and how they tend to be. And it just makes that person usually feel like bulldozed and more unseen. And it can even perpetuate the conflict.

Mike Dazio (18:09)

And that person feels great. They're like, oh, I just, I, I'm such a good partner. I gave my partner what they need. And then their partner's just sitting there like, oh my gosh, this was, this is not what I wanted at all.

Kati Morton (18:20)

The tragedies of human connection. I just, I think there's something tragic about that. It's sometimes it's like humorous in like an endearing way, but it's tragic because it's like you have this dynamic where the person just wants to like give love and they're trying. It just so happens to be the very thing the person needs the least. And it's just so funny when we don't understand these things, how much chaos can ensue.

Mike Dazio (18:41)

Yeah, exactly. What popped in my head was, you know that, like, old adage where people say couples should never go to sleep upset at each other? Like you, you have to resolve it before you go to sleep. Now that I'm older, I'm thinking, well, based on attachment styles, you know, if the fight just happened in the evening, if somebody's more avoidant, they might need time to process and they might need a little bit of space and don't want to stay up on the phone for three hours and try to hash it out. What, what's. I'm sure you've heard this expression before too. What's your take on that? Like, do you think, no, it's okay to take a little bit of space, sleep on it, don't sweep it under the rug, like, don't just forget about it the next day. But do you think it's okay to take, you know, a night to take time to think and come back and thoughtfully know how you want to reply and talk about the situation?

Kati Morton (19:29)

It's a great question, I think 100% and I think that makes people feel uncomfortable sometimes when they're more anxious. But I would often give couples, when I was working with them, like a hybrid approach where if, let's say the argument happened at like 10pm the dismissive avoidant in the relationship has to be be up at 5:30 to like start their work day and they need sleep and like somebody's pressuring them, like, we have to solve it right now. Like it just can drag out for so long. And so like, we know a dismissive avoidant isn't going to feel 100 comfortable and even be able to necessarily articulate their feelings into words at the last minute when there's pressure, like to sleep and feel okay in the morning. But we also know that when an anxious attachment style or even a fearful avoidant at times goes to bed with a lot lack of resolution, it can feel really confronting and uncomfortable. So I always say, like, hey, just take a hybrid approach, like as a dismissive void and say, hey, I care about you. I am going to come back and resolve this. I really need time to think about it. Why don't we talk about it tomorrow? And I think as long as you don't stretch it out for too long, like two days, three days, like, that can be a little bit excessive. If we're like, hey, tomorrow, why don't we Have a call in the evening when we both get home from work and we'll, like, finish the discussion. I do care about you. I just need a little bit. Bit of space to process. Then that allows for the other person to have their sense of certainty met. And also they, you know, they're all. Their abandonment wounds aren't going to necessarily get triggered because they're like, okay, you care about me. You're coming back. And then in turn, that person can hold better space for the dismissive avoidant, who I really believe, until a dismissive avoidance starts becoming more and more secure, they are better off taking some space to breathe and put things into words, because when they don't, it's like you're trying to get them to communicate when they're just not. They're not clear themselves. So how can they possibly have a productive conversation with you? And a lot of dismissive points when they're stonewalling. Sure, it can be from, like, protective protection and stuff, but people think, oh, it's spite, it's this, it's that. It's generally not. It's way more often literally coming from a place of, like, they just don't know what they're feeling quite yet because they're not attuned to themselves. And so just having some grace to understand that can be really meaningful.

Mike Dazio (21:20)

And I liked how, you know, we're talking about the avoidant perspective. But it's very considerate and even humane to let your partner know, like, yes, there's a disagreement right now, but I'm not. I'm not wanting to leave you. Like, this is not causing a breakup or anything like that. But I just do need to. A day or two to collect my thoughts before we sort of talk about this again. And I can share with you, you know, how I'm feeling. But, like, this. The relationship's not in jeopardy. Like, don't. Please don't go to sleep thinking that I'm not gonna, you know, be here tomorrow or anything. We think the other person might not be upset and be like, okay, they're just gonna take a few days. But there might be a strong anxiety of like, oh, shoot, like, what is this fight gonna be like a relationship ender? Is this person gonna leave me? So I think just giving them that reassurance that, that, no, it's not like a relationship ender. I just need a bit of time to process what just happened. And, you know, generally the other person will give them that. That grace 100% that's important. Okay. Number three, approach them with sensitivity, like, you know, with kind of like white gloves. Best way to do is just let them know that you're there for them. It goes a long way. Like knowing that somebody is there for you, has your back, whatever you need, like, pick up the phone, let me know. But no, like, they don't take your time. Just let them know that you're there for them in the background and checking in on them, see if they're okay. And not every like 30 minutes or something like that. But it does go a long way. And I'll give an example of, I won't say who it is specifically in case they're watching the podcast, but, you know, they've been going through a tough time lately and I've realized that. And I know they're like hardcore avoidant and they don't want unsolicited advice, even though I think, oh, I, I know some things that could help them. But I just know this, at this point in time, they just really need to figure out about their own stuff. They're on their journey and they're needing to go through this period that's a little tough, but, you know, necessary. We all, we all have these periods, but I've just been sending little notes of support and, and messaging and just saying, like, hey, hope you're having a good day, thinking about you, or you know, a few days later, oh, you're having a nice day, let me know if you need anything. So just, you know, they're very, not a non aggressive, non, you know, hey, you need to get back to me. And to be honest, probably 90 of those messages were left unread. Like, not nothing came back to me, but because I knew the person's personality and I knew that they were going through something, I didn't, I didn't need that back. I just wanted them to know someone's here for you. And then a couple nights ago they wrote, things are good today. I'm actually having a really good day and just want to let you know it really means a lot to me that you're, you care for me and I appreciate it. That's the hope that everybody who's stonewalling us, well at least acknowledge that we see you and we know that you're caring about us. But for the person who's listening, who might be stonewalling, if you see somebody's there for you, like, and checking in whatnot, like they care, like, they want you to do well and it's nice to just send them a little note, just say, yeah, hey, not the most. I know I'm not getting back to you, but just I appreciate you. You caring about me.

Kati Morton (24:17)

Can I ask you a question? Let's say it wasn't that type of relationship. Let's say it was a romantic relationship. Where would you advise? Because there's this interesting dynamic, right, where if you're getting so involved in a romantic relationship, like, I think it's really important to say, hey, I'm ready to talk when you are. I'm here to support you. Like, I want to have a healthy conversation. Let's hash it out together. Let me know when you're ready. And to not, like, put pressure on, but to also be clear about your intentions. But I think there also becomes a line where, like, if it's one type of relationship, it's. It's one thing, but if it's your romantic partner and it goes on for, like, days and days and weeks, Weeks, you know, then where's that sort of line in the sand? So thinking back to when you were dismissive, avoidant, I'd love to hear your thoughts on, you know, what that line in the sand should be and how somebody can approach you at the time if you're in a romantic relationship with them and you're stonewalling for, like, days, like, for. For periods of time, like, where do we draw the line? How do you speak for your own needs, but also be mindful of the other person simultaneously? Because I know that's a lot of what people are going to be wondering right now.

Mike Dazio (25:16)

Yeah. Yeah. I can think of one situation, and I don't know if this is the right. Right way to do it or not, but it worked. And you can tell me sort of if you think this would be a good play or not. But again, it's knowing that they're going through something, offering support from afar. But I remember one time I was. It wasn't stonewalling because I was going through something or depressed or anything, but I was actually just feeling sick. And this person wanted to, like, spend time and, like, do stuff and. And talk and all that. I'm like, no, like, please. I just need to be like, like, alone. And, you know, she knew that I. I don't cook all the time. I wasn't the. The best cook or whatever. And just knowing that I was sick and probably not in the mood to cook, she just made a whole bunch of stuff. And G came over and said, like, hey, I. I brought you these things. And she wasn't saying, like, I need to come inside and like, this is my way to sort of get in the door. I'm tricking him so I can come inside.

Kati Morton (26:07)

Violating the boundary. Yeah.

Mike Dazio (26:09)

She was like, no, I'm literally just dropping this off and, like, I hope you feel better soon. And then for me, I didn't see her in a few days, and I was like, oh, like. Like, get in here. Come on. Like, let's, like, come on, eat this food with me. And it was nice seeing the person. Yeah. I don't know. Now that I'm explaining, I'm like, I don't know if that's. That would work too well if somebody's, like, stonewalling because they're, you know, kind of in fight or flight and really dealing with some. Something.

Kati Morton (26:32)

Here's what I think. I'll tell you. And tell me. Tell me your thoughts. When you were a dismissive avoidant. So what I would often advise clients to do is, let's say you're the person. It doesn't matter what the person's attachment styles, but the dismissive void and stonewalling, obviously, because they. They don't. They don't feel comfortable talking or they don't know what they feel yet. I always say, like, okay, give a little bit of space and time, right? So that that person has the ability to process. But tell the person what you need, that you come in peace and time box, what the solution is. So, for example, you might go to a dismissive one, Be like, hey, I know we have some tension between us right now. I definitely think we can hash out what's going on, and we can do it in, like, a really healthy way so we both feel resolved. I want to respect that you need some space, and when you're ready, let's talk it out together. Let's move through it. And. And it'll probably take us 15, 20 minutes to do. Why don't we try doing it by the end of the day tomorrow? And so what you do is you're, like, honoring your needs. At the same time, you're saying, I come in peace. Cause I think a lot of dismissive avoidance, they get afraid of conflict too. So they kind of, like, push it away. But that doesn't mean that you should. As whatever attachment style the person is listening to this, if you're not a da, it doesn't mean that you should just, like, go on their timeline all the time. Like, it's okay to have your own needs too. It's more about, like, how can we find the middle ground? So if you tell them, like, hey, I come in peace, we can hash yourself together. It can be something productive, then we'll both feel better. Kind of like I'm on your team kind of language. And then you tell them, okay, why don't we do it by 12pm tomorrow or the end of the day tomorrow. You're advocating for your timeline and also giving space for theirs. And then also dismissive avoidance. Do this thing where they think that if you're like, we're gonna hash out a conflict, they're like, it's gonna take all day, it's gonna be our whole evening. Like they think it's gonna be like forever. And just like, just like if somebody doesn't text somebody back who's anxious, they, they think, oh my gosh, like I'm never gonna hear from you again. Like we tend to catastrophize or worst case scenarios. And I find that duals a lot with like timelines to talk things out or to have a conflict. So I find that it's very useful, very useful tip to be like, hey, can we do this thing? It's going to take 10, 15 minutes. We can probably hash it out within half an hour. Then the dismissive avoidant doesn't think like, oh, we're going to go to dinner to talk this out and it's going to take the whole dinner or the whole evening. And so just giving that like kind of dynamic again, little tiny tweaks in communication that take less than two seconds to do and it goes a very long way. And by the same token, I would say the same thing. Like it takes us half a second for a dismissive point to be like, hey, I care about you. I'm not ready to talk right now, but I will be ready tomorrow. Or let's try again tomorrow. It takes two seconds to say that. But that reassurance you give to your partner like literally goes such a long way. So those little tiny tweaks where we can just take one little thing into consideration about our partner, drop it into our communication and then it actually allows for so much more healthy, productive conversation to happen. Always worth doing, in my opinion.

Mike Dazio (29:02)

Yeah. 100. Just to piggyback off that. Yeah. I wrote in my notes, like, if you're letting them know, it doesn't like, hey, I know you're going through a lot and you're needing time and space, but why don't we just hang out for like a couple hours? Like we just watch a movie, I don't have to sleep over or anything, but we don't have to talk about anything. Super heavy if you're not in the mood for it. But would be nice to see you for an hour or two because like you said, if a dia kind of like smells like, oh, this person wants to have this like, like long, drawn out, like dramatic, vulnerable sharing for like hours and hours, of course they're going to be like, no, like, I do not have, have the energy. I don't have the bandwidth for that right now. But if you're just suggesting sort of light, short hangouts, like, you know, at the end of the day they still would be nice to see the person, but they just probably don't want to talk about exactly what's going on. So, you know that meme with, I think it's like Winnie the Pooh and you, he's sitting beside Eeyore the donkey. And what Winnie needed was just somebody to sit beside him and say nothing. And they just sat on the hill for like. Yeah, it's like a really cute one. But really, sometimes somebody just, it's nice to have someone in their, their sphere or their present knowing that they care, but them not having the pressure to like, share everything that's going on in the moment because like we said, maybe they're just not, not ready for it. So I think suggesting just a small go for dinner or, or cook dinner, watch a movie, but like, not leaving the language ambiguous where they're like, oh, this person wants to stay.

Kati Morton (30:30)

Try to get an in to talk through everything at once.

Mike Dazio (30:32)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then quickly. The secondary thing too is like, a lot of times I, when I was like hardcore da, was just such a knucklehead to like, knowing how much what I was doing was hurting someone. I thought like a, like how we mentioned before, I thought that's how everybody dealt with their stuff. Like just quarter sort of retreated into their own isolation and didn't really, you know, there was no pressure to like, tell every single person, you know, like, hey, not doing well right now. I'm gonna be off the radar for a bit. So I think I just felt like it was something that people do and it's obvious, okay, if I'm not responding, like, I'm needing space, like, I, I'll be back when I feel better. But for somebody who's anxious or just your partner in general, like, yeah, you have to just let them know a little bit what's going on and know that they could potentially be really, really stressed out and anxious. Like, not hearing back from you, like, hearing anything. If someone back then were to tell me, hey, like, I know you're going through a lot. I don't need everything right now. I don't usually like spill your whole inner feelings to me right now. But like, not hearing from you makes me feel like the relationship is, is drifting. We're. We're not going to reconnect at any point. I'm thinking, yeah, you don't care about me anymore or, you know, etc, etc. Etc. So it's just kind of letting the person out. Not with like shaming them or guilt to them, but just letting them know you're there to support them. You're okay with them taking a little bit of time. But after a certain period of time, I'm starting to feel this way. I would think back then if I hear like, okay, they're hurting on there and just give them a bit of reassurance that, listen, it's not you, it's just, this is my process. I just need a few, a little more time to really understand what's, what I'm going through. But I can, you know, give you a call tomorrow or update. You know, you give them something, you know, because giving nothing, just way too much left for the imagination on the other side and give us give a bit of a time frame. Like if you're like, oh, you might hear from me in a day or a year, like, that's, that's not fair. Check in. And then again, in checking in with a person that check in that you promised in two days, you might still be feeling a little raw and not ready, at least check in and say, hey, I know we were supposed to talk today. I think I might need just one more day to, to, to myself. Yeah, it's communicating something and nothing, which is, it goes a million miles, obviously.

Kati Morton (32:48)

And if you were in that position as a dismissive avoidant and somebody came to you and said that, hey, like, I'm feeling anxious, I'm feeling a little scared that I'm not going to see you. I think there's two approaches. Sometimes people do it in a like blaming way, like, oh, you just dropped off like. And then I think that caused the dismissive avoidant to retreat more. But if you do it in a way where it's like, hey, I'm nervous. I just need a little reassurance. I just need to know that we're all good. Like just something like that, that's just like dismissive avoidance. Respond so much better when, if you're a different attachment style and you need something, you tell them what it is that you need as soon as dismiss, avoidance, don't know what you need or how to handle the situation, they often get a little bit panicky. Like, I'm not making you feel good, but I'm the one that's like, not feeling good. And that's why I retreated. Like, what do you want me to do here? But if you're like, all I need is just ABC and then dismissive ones often, in my experience with like, so many clients, so many members of PDF, like, over and over again, dismissive wouldn't show up very well if you just make it really clear and they have a lot of empathy for things like that. And let me ask you, like, when you were dismissive, avoidant, if you were dating somebody and they kind of pulled away for a couple days, I assume that your mind would be like, oh, they're probably going through something. Like, I'll kind of check in on them. It'll give them space. Whereas, like, that's not what happens with every other attachment style. Right. Like you. Every other attachment style, they don't like me anymore. They're abandoning me. Or jump to, like, more personalized scenarios because that's not how they cope.

Mike Dazio (34:07)

Yeah, exactly. Like, it wouldn't be a huge shock, I guess, if it was like, we went from messaging 20 times a day every day to like, nothing for three days. Of course, I think regardless of attachment style, you'd be like, well, like, what's going on here? Get a little worried. Are they safe? Are they okay? But because when I was hardcore DA before, the communication was not as frequent. Yeah, I would just, you know, an extra day not hearing from them, a day or two wouldn't be like, crazy. I might shoot out a message, hey, what's up? What's going on?

Kati Morton (34:39)

Yeah, like, check in. But you wouldn't be like, in like, nervous system panic. And it's because you're like, oh, they're probably going through something. They're probably because, like, if I retreat, it's because I'm usually going through something. So I feel like we jump to those types of conclusions even honestly, like, when I was fearful, avoidant in, in, like, friendships and stuff. Like, if a friendship kind of dropped off, a person kind of dropped off off. I would always be like, oh, they're busy. Like, I just, I wouldn't jump to conclusions because I had the tendency to drop off when I was busy or when I was doing things. So it just, I. I feel like we all just so frequently project from our perception.

Mike Dazio (35:09)

The last thing I want to mention, too, the main thing and what I've learned through experience is the DA in that situation and why they're stonewalling is they're afraid to say, like, I need space, or afraid to say, I'm feeling this way right now. Because for me, myself, I'll. I'll say I was always afraid of, like, a bad reaction of the person, like, not understand, getting mad, not agreeing to let me have the space. So I felt that I almost had to, like, take it, like, by force. And like, there's, you know, no questions asked. I need this space. I'm taking it. That's it. But, like, from what I've learned through the years, like, communicating what you need, your partner is usually going to be so understanding and thankful that you're, like, you're giving them the score of, like, what's going on. Like, you're telling them, okay, it's not you. Like, this is my process. I need this. Like, it's just you're giving them information about what's going on want. And like I mentioned before, in the absence of information, there's just too much room for somebody to think the worst. And if you have poor wounds, of course your core wounds are going to go into overdrive of feeling rejected, abandoned. So again, if you're the, the da, like, I challenge you, if you're going through this kind of stuff, your partner, I believe, going to be way, way more understanding. If you share with them what it is you need, just as if you were going through something, you. You would want them to tell you exactly what they need. Because DA's don't always know, like, oh, my partner's upset. I don't know what to. They give you an instruction like, hey, I really need you to, I don't know, message me a couple times in the next few days, giving me support. Then they have that they know, okay, perfect. I know what to do. I feel empowered.

Kati Morton (36:42)

I totally agree with you. And what you're saying is like, hey, we need to be able to go in here, give the person. If they're already going through something, give the person, like, some direction. Because if they're going through something and they've retreated, it's harder for them to be there for you or to figure out what you need. So if you're just making it really clear at the same time, both people can kind of have those needs met.

Mike Dazio (36:58)

Exactly. If you're not clear, they might do the opposite of what you need and frustrate you even more. But they're just, you know, out of the goodness of their Heart. They're just like. They generally don't know what to do. They don't know exactly what you need. And without information, they're just going on what they think would help them in that situation.

Kati Morton (37:14)

So 100. And I want to say one more thing, and then I know you'll go into your. The next step in a second, but just. I think some people, when they hear that, they're like, I shouldn't have to say everything that I need. Need. I went through this like I was a fearful avoidant dating somebody who's dismissive. Avoidant again. We both done some work already. This is my husband, Graham, when we first started dating. But I had done a good bit of work, and he'd done some too. And I remember realizing that, like, for this to work, I'm gonna have to really communicate my needs and being resistant to it at first. Like, do I really have to be the one to communicate my needs? But when I took an honest look at my life, I realized, like, I'm actually really poor at communicating my needs. I'm great at meeting them myself. I'm great at done healing on my core wounds and needs, my knowledge, nervous system. And I've come a long way, but, like, I'm actually not good at, like, communicating and being vulnerable and receiving from other people and being like, well, this is a good practice for me anyways. And honestly, that doing that one thing in my relationship with my husband allowed me to get so good at that that I could do that with anybody else. And that totally revolute. It was one of the most meaningful things I ever did in my own healing journey was learned to just, like, communicate my needs and be really clear and really specific. And I was like, wow, that was something I was missing, Missing so much at the time from all of my relationships. And I didn't realize. And as soon as I did start communicating my needs and putting that stuff out there to other people, I was like, whoa, I feel so loved and connected and, like, seen by people not even realizing for how long. I just put up these walls that were out of my own awareness by never communicating what I needed to others. So for anybody who's like, oh, I shouldn't have to communicate my needs, it's honestly your loss. If you don't get good at communicating your needs. It's you keeping yourself in isolation. It's you keeping people at arm's lengths. So it is worth doing that work. And you're gonna see you communicate your needs and the people who are meant to be close to you and grow in those relationships with you are really gonna show up, and it's gonna be a beautiful thing. And the people who don't show up at all. Now you're loud and clear that, like, you can take a step back in that dynamic.

Mike Dazio (38:58)

Exactly. And by doing what you used to do. And if anybody out there is doing that as well, and I used to as well, if I. If I'm not communicating needs and this person's not showing up for me and doing things the opposite of what I need, are you just like, okay, this person's not meant for me. Like, they don't. We're not meant to be together. Like, they don't know what I need. They don't know how to make me feel good. They do things that are upsetting.

Kati Morton (39:21)

Totally.

Mike Dazio (39:22)

You know, how are they supposed to know? They don't know your exact, you know, makeup and what you need. Like, it's up to us to tell. As much as we would love to a partner to come into our life.

Kati Morton (39:31)

And read our mind.

Mike Dazio (39:33)

Yeah, yeah, read our mind. Exactly. We want, like, we don't. We don't come with a manual, and everybody's different. So I was just thinking about, like, past relationships, of how if there's, like, a lot of conflict or, like, fighting and stuff like that, I'm like, oh, that's an indicator of this is not a good relationship. Well, no, I did. I had no idea how to do conflict communication. I used to run away from conflict and just sweep it under the rug and avoid it. So of course I'm going to keep on, like, trying to find someone who I don't have to have conflict with. Well, good luck with that anywhere. So, no.

Kati Morton (40:06)

And just for anybody who's hearing that who is a dismissive aven, it's not that, like, all relationships are filled with conflict. It's that how you do conflict matters. If you get good at doing conflict in a healthy way, conflict actually is, like a beautiful thing. Like, you'll get to a point where you're like, oh, there's a. There's a tension. There's a conflict. Great. I can't wait to hash it out. I know that everything's going to be better off after, and it doesn't have to be like this big, scary thing. I get it. Because when you're first practicing that and warming up to learning to hash things out, I remember that in my own life, and it was terrifying. It's scary. But just like anything else, it's well worth conquering. Because if you can get to a point where you're like, no, no. I trust that if there is ever a conflict, conflict, it just becomes like a healthy conversation and we're both vulnerable and we talk things through and we just feel better after. You'll do it enough times where, like, that becomes an empowering experience instead of like a debilitating one. And it will happen with practice. It's not going to be overnight. It'll be that you do it enough times that eventually it becomes that in your close relationships. So don't worry if it's not perfect at first, but how you do conflict will make the literally all the difference in your relationship, rather than the concept of like, trying to just avoid conflict at first. A whole.

Mike Dazio (41:06)

Exactly. And for sure, especially for avoidance, like, conflict didn't feel good in childhood. Probably for most of us, like, conflict was like, between our parents and us. And generally our parents won if it was, you know, if we're wanting more candy and we already had enough and the parents didn't want us to, they're going to win that conflict. So generally, I understand, conflict didn't feel good. So for some people, you know, conflict, just the word itself can elicit like, like, oh, that's bad, that's terrible. But as we know, like, conflict, or if we want to have a different word for it, a disagreement. Can it bring you guys closer together than before? Because it's something that you're at odds about, but you care about each other enough that you want to work it out and bring your perspectives to the table and find like a middle ground. But if you just sweep that under the table, like, you're never going to resolve that. That's always going to be like a pain point. Conflict can be and is good. Unless it's happening, like, all the time. Then, you know, I want to look at relationship. Step 5. Ask what they need. So we already kind of covered this. I won't say too much. It's just ask them if there's anything they need to support them. Yeah, it's better to ask specifically what they might need. And then the last one is. And there's a big one. Take yourself into consideration. If someone does express a need or needs, it doesn't mean we have to, like, bend over backwards or agree to do, like, every single thing that they want. Want. Like, hey, I need. I need another month of space. If that's not going to work for you, if that's not a relationship that's going to serve you and make you feel good about the relationship and yourself, then you have to say, like, I don't think this is going to work for me. So we still need to have healthy boundaries and consider ourselves first and in what we can give. Otherwise, we're taking on someone's pain and suffering, and that's not fair.

Kati Morton (42:48)

And that's how we hash stuff out. That's how we get to those points. If somebody shares what they need and you're able to say, hey, I may not be able to do all that, but I can, can do this. And you make other suggestions and pivot in your approach. Because if somebody says to you, hey, I need, you know, an extra week of space, and you say, well, you know what? A week of space, it's not okay for me. I understand that you need some space. I want to try to honor that. I respect where you're coming from. But for me, like, this is very uncomfortable. Can we. Can we meet in a middle ground? Can we talk in two, three days? Like, if you can have those conversations. It's funny because we have this idea that unless you meet the person's need. Oh, it's their ignorance, ignoring it. But, like, when you're a parent, one of the biggest things that that's talked about in secure attachment parenting strategies is that a parent helps a child become secure when they honor and validate the need. So you gave the example a second ago, like a kid wanting candy. If a kid wants candy at night and it's like, past their bedtime and the sugar is going to keep them up, obviously a parent shouldn't be like, yes, let's give you the candy. That's called permissive parenting. It actually has a lot of unhealthy connotations later on, because then people have all these expectations of everybody to just show up and meet their needs all the time. Time. And it kind of enables them. But if a parent is able to validate the child's needs and say, honey, I know you want candy, but if you eat your candy late at night, you're gonna have a stomach ache. You're not gonna sleep well. Why don't we do this? Eat a healthy breakfast and lunch tomorrow, and after dinner tomorrow, you can have a little bit of candy if you finish eating all of your greens. You know, if a. If a parent can go to a child, honor their needs, validate, and then make a compromise, a child feels seen and heard in that, and they actually be. They. They're able to. To, like, rest and feel resolved. And so, you know, from a parent, from a personal relationship perspective, you don't have to meet somebody's needs to help them feel like a lot better. In this situation, it may not be perfect, but you can say, hey, I get where you're coming from. I see what you need. I understand why you would need that. And I also have needs. Here's where I stand on this. And why don't we try to meet somewhere in the middle? And in doing that, the person feels like you're on their team, you're on their side, and you take something that could be counterproductive and you literally turn it productive just by honoring and validating but then still taking yourself into, into consideration to be able to compromise.

Mike Dazio (44:44)

Oh, that. Yeah, that works perfectly. So, yeah, those are our six steps. I, I just want to communicate the main thing for me and this, like, for da's listening and my process before, I thought stonewalling was the only option. Like, no one's going to be able to help me. I need to do this all on my own. I need everyone to be away from me. But as we see, doing that causes a lot of sort of chaos with relationships and stuff like that. It's okay to but just communicate it and also know that, like, people can help you. Like, we can sue through other people. Doesn't mean you have to swing from like, avoidant to be like, okay, I only want to sue through other people now. But just now that I'm more secure, I can speak what I need. If somebody's coming at me with unsolicited advice, I can kind of stop them in their tracks and be like, hey, not, not really look for that right now. But what would be helpful is if you could just listen right now. There's less fear now of people making me feel worse, basically and like, kind of like steamrolling me with what they think they need. Whereas now it's like, hey, you know what? Like, if I'm feeling bad, sometimes I do need to retreat and be by myself. But other times I'm like, you know what? I think talking to somebody who's empathetic and can listen right now would do some good. So you don't need to stonewall. And then for the person who's being stonewalled, know that there's probably a lot of that fear going on in the background of being like, kind of like dominated in the way that you think that they would need help. So just have that in mind and know that this person needs, needs a little bit more of a white gloves approach and obviously all the things we mentioned in the episode.

Kati Morton (46:14)

So I love that I love that. I think that's such a good note to leave off on is just the power and importance of being able to actually say, like, hey, this is what I need. Like, as a dismissal wouldn't the more you can do that, the more comfortable you're going to feel with people as well. Like if somebody's doing the wrong thing and you're trying to communicate a need or you feel steamrolled or something you can carve in space, you can stop them in their tracks, you can have a conversation like, like you can change the approach and thus the outcome of what's happening in front of you. So I love that. That's fantastic advice. Thank you Mike so much. Really enjoyed this episode. As always, thank you for being here. If you want to learn more about Mike, check them out in the social media links down below. And of course, if you ever want to join the Personal Development School, you can jump in for a free trial where you can actually check anything out. So check that out down below. Thank you so, so much and we'll see you next time. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to subscribe, rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform, share it with friends and family who are on their journey of personal development and growth, and thank you for listening. Next week we'll be back with more insights to guide you on your journey. And until then, keep practicing our tools and strategies to change your subconscious mind and apply some of the powerful learnings from this podcast so that you experience real life transformation.