Why Anxious Attachment Feels Responsible for Everyone

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Thais Gibson Podcast

Episode: "Why Anxious Attachment Feels Responsible for Everyone"

Date: June 21, 2026
Host: Thais Gibson
Guest: Scott

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Overview

This deeply moving episode focuses on the lived reality of anxious attachment—specifically, the sense of being responsible for everyone and the core wounds that drive these behaviors. Thais Gibson coaches Scott through heartfelt discussion and live exercises, helping him to reframe patterns shaped by feelings of abandonment and not being “good enough.” Listeners are provided with actionable insights, emotional tools, and a compassionate exploration of what it looks like to move toward healing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Scott’s Background: Early Patterns & Trauma

• Scott’s Family & Early Marriage

  • Raised in a large family in Pasco, Washington, with positive origin experiences.
  • Married at 18 after learning his girlfriend was pregnant, resulting in five children and a 20-year marriage.
  • Early adulthood focused on providing and protecting (03:28).

• Divorce and Family Estrangement

  • The impact of an “ugly divorce,” parental alienation, and subsequent loss of contact with his children (04:25).
  • Emotional devastation and feeling “erased” from his children's lives.
  • The endurance of unconditional love through time and distance, despite misperceptions (13:00–16:35).

“No matter how much distance is there, … that love doesn’t go anywhere.”
—Thais Gibson, 12:15

2. Parental Alienation and Misunderstanding

• Discussion around parental alienation, how it occurs, and its deep emotional toll.
• Scott’s commitment to never invalidating his children’s emotional experience, emphasizing empathy over blame (76:09).

"I would never ever tell my kids any of them that they're wrong and that... their emotions and the things that they felt were wrong... those truths are allowed to coexist."
—Scott & Thais, 76:30-78:07

3. Core Wounds: Not Good Enough & Abandonment

• Exploration of how deep-rooted beliefs of “not being good enough” formed after the divorce and loss (18:04–34:35).
• How these beliefs manifest as self-imposed pressure, perfectionism, and eventual emotional burnout (36:12).

“Who do you become when you're carrying that level of pressure? —Well, you lose yourself.”
—Thais & Scott, 34:37

• Link between anxious attachment, codependency, and self-abandonment:
  • Needing to "do more" and be responsible for the feelings and happiness of everyone.
  • Abandoning own needs and voice to avoid being abandoned by others (53:14–54:21).

“The number one way people tend to cope with this wound is they abandon themselves to please others to avoid getting abandoned. But... they keep the wound alive.”
—Thais Gibson, 53:14

4. Rewiring & Healing Tools

• Auto-Suggestion Technique:
  • Systematic reprogramming of subconscious belief systems using emotionally charged evidence of “being enough.”
  • Encouragement to record and listen to 10+ specific affirmations for 21 days in alpha brainwave states for lasting neural rewiring (22:30–23:40).

“Once we do this, we're gonna give this to Scott to take home so he can record himself... and listen back for 21 days...”
—Thais, 23:15

• Honest Self-Assessment & Evidence Gathering:
  • Thais and Scott collaboratively develop real examples from his life demonstrating his worth and care—even when he struggles to see it (41:25–47:42).
  • Emphasis on self-acknowledgment as critical for healing attachment wounds (79:00–80:05).

“You have this story that, like, I'm not good enough and I misunderstood, and I see it—I want to go into all the things you did first that were good enough...”
—Thais, 24:19

5. Communicating Needs and Setting Boundaries

• The Role of Needs:
  • Thais challenges Scott to identify and express his own needs—something he’s historically struggled to recognize and communicate (68:40–69:55, 78:36–79:01).
  • Needs acknowledged include: being seen and appreciated, relationship consistency, and reassurance (79:00–84:00).

“I need to be seen for what I'm doing, what I am. And like…”
—Scott, 78:51

• The Price of Self-Abandonment:
  • The realization that ignoring personal truth and needs led to personal and relational breakdowns, including the divorce (69:55–74:29).

“The divorce happened because I let other people's truths and their perceptions bulldoze mine...I abandoned myself.”
—Scott, 69:59

6. Cycles of Codependency and Life Patterns

• Recognition that self-sacrifice, striving to be "enough," and avoiding conflict lead to emotional depletion and reinforce wounds (60:47–62:19).
• Patterns repeated in subsequent relationships and family dynamics (61:59–65:44).
• Discussion of how shifting this pattern is both crucial and possible.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Weight of Perfectionism:
  “It’s like driving a car when there’s a 50-ton lead weight strapped to your car…you can’t drive that car…you’re just gonna make a mess.”
  —Scott, 37:52

• On Authenticity and Identity:
  “My core wound…of feeling that I am not enough…has prevented me from being able to show up authentically as who I am…that's one thing that I have truly missed from pre-divorce…I was able to show up as myself.”
  —Scott, 86:27

• On Compassionate Self-Reflection:
  “You have this really, really big, strong capacity to push through really hard things…and to keep showing up.”
  —Thais Gibson, 60:29

• On the Impact of Vulnerability:
  “Just the vulnerability of things goes such a long way…A lot of people will resonate with that, and also, if your kids ever come across this, I think it's gonna deeply touch them.”
  —Thais Gibson, 88:12–89:23

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |----------|------------------------| | 00:00–04:25 | Scott’s family history and divorce background | | 06:15–13:00 | Parental alienation and its effects | | 18:04–34:35 | Core wounds of “not good enough” and being misunderstood | | 36:07–38:40 | Impact of perfectionism and anxious attachment | | 41:25–47:42 | Reframing and collecting self-evidence | | 53:14–54:21 | The self-abandonment loop & codependency | | 68:52–71:53 | Recognizing and honoring own needs and truth | | 74:23–75:31 | Breaking the pattern and hope for future connection | | 78:36–80:05 | Specific needs: acknowledgment, consistency, reassurance | | 86:27–87:44 | Closing insights on authenticity and healing |

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Final Takeaways

• Core wounds—not feeling good enough and fearing abandonment—often drive anxious attachment and codependent patterns, leading to relentless self-sacrifice and burnout.
• Healing begins when we see and honor our own efforts, communicate our needs, and reprogram limiting beliefs through deliberate, emotionally resonant practice.
• Scott’s journey is both deeply personal and broadly relatable, showing compassion for self and others in the midst of misunderstanding and pain.
• Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own attachment wounds, practice self-acknowledgment, and adopt healing tools such as auto-suggestion and boundary setting.

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Resources Mentioned

• Emotional Mastery & Belief Reprogramming Course:
  Free 7-day trial for listeners interested in deeper self-work.

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Memorable Closing:
“Vulnerability goes such a long way…You should be so proud. You just went right into some of the stuff. So just…amazing courage and thank you for everything that you shared.”
—Thais Gibson, 85:21–85:55

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This episode serves as a compassionate roadmap for anyone struggling to overcome anxious attachment, demonstrating that fast, lasting transformation is possible when we courageously face our wounds and rewire our relationships—first with ourselves, then with others.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Breakthrough with Thais Gibson podcast. Today you're going to see our lovely guest Scott, who most of you will be able to relate to at home in having these big core wounds of being abandoned and not good enough often shape his behaviors and how these wounds can actually wreak havoc on your life. I'll take Scott today through some exercises to help him understand these behaviors and to actually rewire these wounds once and for all.

[B]

My name is Scott. I'm from Pasco, Washington, and I'm here with Tyus to work through codependent patterns that have developed the last few years.

[A]

Beautiful.

[C]

Thank you for joining me, Scott. I'm really glad that you're here.

[B]

I'm excited to be here.

[C]

So, before we dive in to really

[A]

the source and some of the core

[C]

wounds connected to codependency and some of the ways that we may abandon our needs at different times or not share them, I'm curious.

[A]

What are some defining moments that you think in your. Your life have made you. You kind of outstanding themes, hard moments, beautiful moments. Like how would you sort of describe yourself growing up?

[B]

Like as a youth? Like growing up or growing up to

[C]

where I am as a youth and then in your early adulthood.

[B]

Boy, in a youth. I don't like. I was raised in a big family. A lot of good experiences. I think that defined a lot of family origin in me. And then I got married very early.

[A]

How old were you?

[B]

I was. I had my 18th birthday. I got married a week after. I was 18, so.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

And was that. So we got started love or was that.

[B]

Well, I had. We had been dating a couple years. She got pregnant and then we decided. I decided to get married and start a family. That was the. Go ahead and move forward with that. That wasn't. I wasn't planning on that, obviously, but I was a senior in high school and we said this is the path we're going to go. And then we just went full tilt, like 100% that path. And.

[A]

Wow, it's a very young age to take.

[B]

Yeah, it was. I wouldn't recommend it. It was a hard path, but I

[C]

don't regret it for stepping into that too. I think that's admirable.

[B]

I feel actually when you say one of the things you're proud of. I'm proud of what I did with a situation that could have been bad or not good because that's not the ideal start for a family or a relationship. But I'm pretty proud of what I did with that.

[A]

That's beautiful.

[C]

We might get into some of that at some point today. And.

[A]

And so how long were you married for?

[B]

Right on. 20 years.

[A]

Okay. And do you think you had some codependent patterns in that relationship?

[B]

No.

[A]

No. Interesting. And so a lot of the codependency started after the divorce of that relationship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And do you think that's also part of. Because of how the relationship ended, that you had fears of those things repeating and some wounds that were acquired from the ending of that.

[B]

It definitely a relationship. We had five kids, raised really good kids, and had very close relationship with all five of my kids. And then it went from that to a really ugly divorce where I lost my kids and they see very poor me, poorly of me. And so that definitely that was. It's been 12 years now, 10 years that it's been final, but.

[A]

And do you have any contact with your kids now?

[B]

So I lost my kids. I got them back. I. I ended up with. After a couple years, actually, I had full custody. She remarried and left the state. We were technically joint custody, but my youngest, two daughters were living with me. And then when they. That ended very badly. The last. After they lived with me for four years, I moved to Indiana with my youngest. I just had one at home at the time, and I was there for six months. But we were. The divorce, like, the fighting never stopped. It just got worse and worse. And so that ended very badly when I was in Indiana, and so I had to leave. And my kids. Don't. Don't speak to me anymore.

[A]

Okay. And that's like, one of the biggest grieving periods somebody can go through, quite honestly, is to lose that connection to children. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And not just that my kids think that I hate them, and I was trying to punish them and by keeping them with me.

[A]

Okay. And I just want to ask you about that for a moment. I know it's not necessarily a topic for today, but to. You hate your children?

[B]

Do I hate my children? No. I love my children. And this is. You talk about being. Betrayed. And I feel like I showed my kids who I was for until the divorce started. Once the divorce started, things were just horrible. But I feel like they ought to overnight, like, erased our whole relationship, everything they saw. And I understand. Like, you're a kid. Like, I don't. How do you process what's going on? If you come home one day and Dad's not there, you assume dad left. You don't know that dad wanted to stay, but. And he was doing everything he could to stay. But what it looks like on the outside when Everybody you know is telling you, dad left. How can you?

[A]

And it's really hard because sometimes in a divorce, and obviously I have minimal context about your. Your divorce at the time, but something that's really common is sometimes one parent, when they cope with a divorce, it's called parental alienation, and they'll try to pit the children against the other.

[B]

Yes, parents, what happened? But. And I don't say that from like a mean, spoiled spot to my ex wife. I don't at all. I think we see what we see, and she didn't mean for that to go that direction.

[A]

But sometimes what happens is when a parent doesn't have a voice because they don't know how to communicate to their loved ones or share what's going on, or sometimes they feel ashamed that they're getting separated or divorced, sometimes they communicate to their kids, and their kids be the one, become the ones that they go to. And then the children hear one side of a story and not the whole story. And then of course, if the children are just getting mom's side all the time and never hearing dad's side much, or especially if you're trying to protect your children from being put in the middle and, and not sharing your side of things as much, then sometimes there's this running narrative that now they see the divorce through. And then, of course, it's really easy to feel this sense of. Of separation. It's a very common experience in divorces and a very, very painful one for people as well. So before we get into some of the codependency that may have arisen from that, I actually just want to ask you for a moment. It's gonna be a hard question, but I want to give you the opportunity just. I think sometimes it's healing to share. And I would love to hear how much you love your kids and what you love about your kids, irrespective of how they see you. Take your time.

[B]

I'm not very good at. I feel too many emotions, so.

[A]

But tell me, tell me from the youngest up. Let's start with the youngest.

[B]

What was your favorite thing you started from the biggest pain point?

[C]

I'm sorry.

[B]

It's fine. Ask me the question again. You said how I see my kids.

[A]

Yeah. What do you love about your kids?

[B]

What I love about my kids.

[A]

You know why I'm asking you this?

[C]

A.

[A]

Because. Because. Because on one hand, it's very healing to express your love when you haven't had a chance to and to share and to just let a little bit of that out. And on the other hand, if your children ever see this, one of the biggest, most impactful things that actually help children overcome parental alienation syndrome. It's often referred to as PAs. Parental alienation is just sincerely hearing that they're loved. And so if this ever comes across or just. They ever happen upon this in any kind of context or way, it might be beautiful just to hear. So if you feel comfortable, I'd love to just hear. You know, if you want to share a favorite thing that you love about each of your children, anything that comes to mind, it can be their personality

[C]

or their spunk or their vigor or their determination or their spiritedness or.

[A]

Or peace. Just if you want to tell me in a sentence or two about your youngest, first, I'd love to hear.

[B]

Like I said, this is really difficult, but. My youngest, I definitely love her spunk. She's like. I would say, like at. Sweet, spicy. When she was little, she was always just very loving and still is, but she's definitely. She's. She's got. She's very spicy, which is fun. And I love that about her and

[C]

admire that a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, that's beautiful.

[C]

What about your.

[B]

What about your second youngest? My second youngest is Jocelyn, and so my youngest is Avery. My second youngest is Jocelyn, and she's a very. Well, she's a caretaker. She. She's very organized, which is the opposite of me. And so when we were. I had the two. When I got custody of them, and when their mom left the state, they were. The two youngest were minors. And so the other kids were gone, but. So it was them too. But she was always like. She would come up like these to do lists and. But again, very loving and caring of other people and very empathetic, it sounds like.

[A]

Yeah, that's really beautiful. And what about the next one?

[B]

The next is. Is Eric, my son. What I love about him the most is his heart.

[A]

A big heart.

[B]

Yeah. He's very driven, very. Works very hard, but. But mostly that he notices he's been. For my younger daughter, I know for sure. Probably the most protector. Just he's so. I admire that about him that he's. Protect his. His heart is. Is huge

[A]

and no noticing as we go through them.

[C]

And I know we have two. Two other ones to. To share about and.

[A]

And you're being extremely strong and courageous. Notice that no matter how much distance is there, no matter how much time goes by, that love doesn't go anywhere.

[B]

Not for me, it doesn't. Yeah, it's never changed and it won't

[A]

be for them either. As much as it may seem like it, children, when they get hurt, even if it's not of your doing, if it's of their perception that they were taught or whatever it might be, I'm

[B]

not saying that I didn't make mistakes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And when things happen, though, children don't have their love go anywhere either. It's just hidden. It's just a little bit obscured by. By the wounds and the confusion. And just like, it doesn't go anywhere for you, it also doesn't go anywhere.

[B]

I'm not mad at them for that. I understand. Like, it would be confusing. And.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not, like, trying to say they're wrong. I'm just saying I understand where they're coming from.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that you love them and that it hurts to not have them in your life in the way that you'd like.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So tell me about the last two.

[C]

And then we're going to link this to the codependency.

[B]

Miranda is. She's great. She's, like, so much fun. She's adventurous and loving, and she's actually married now and has three kids, and I feel like that's because of her. Like, she's just. Yeah,

[C]

she's.

[B]

She's like, more scheduled and more on time, and I'm not. That's not. She. She didn't get that from me. But no, she's. She's like. I love her adventure side of her and just. And she's caring. She's a great mother, you know, that's beautiful. Cares about other people.

[A]

That's beautiful.

[C]

And what about your eldest?

[B]

And Austin, my oldest. I really love his uniqueness. It's interesting. I was actually just talking about this yesterday. When I grew up, like, through school and high school, I. I actually didn't have a lot of friends, and I didn't really fit or belong anywhere and kind of different than who I was after we got married and we. I found my identity in our family and was able to kind of be myself and. And my. My oldest son was different, and so he was kind of picked on and he wasn't. As a parent, you want to, like, protect that. And also because I know what it feels like in some way, and that actually in a little bit, like, kind of drove a little bit of a wedge between us because I think he felt like when I was trying to help him, he felt like I didn't love him and, like, I wasn't okay with him being different. And I was a young parent. I was 18 when I started. So, I mean, you know, I was kind of figuring things out as I go. But definitely it wasn't a lack of, like, not being proud of him and not loving him. I probably didn't maybe express that, communicate that the best way.

[A]

I hear that you tried to maybe get him to do things so that he could fit in, so he didn't have to experience the pain that you went through. Yeah, more like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But we still did a lot of things together, and I've. Even him. I feel like we had a good relationship. Like, we could go. I remember one, like, when he was a senior in high school and he wanted to go to a concert on Seattle. It's big city. And I said, absolutely not, but I'll drive you and your friends. And he had no problem with it. And we had a good time. And it was like, I could do things like that with him because we did have a good relationship. But there was, like, kind of this little core hidden thing that was that when the divorce started, that, like, came out, and we haven't really been on the same page since, like. And I understand where he's coming from. I know I. I tried to keep my kids out of the divorce stuff. I didn't really want to talk about it because I felt like that was our. Me and my wife's problems and not my kids problems.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was interpreted as I was trying to hide what I was. What I'd done wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it wasn't that at all. Like, I didn't want to.

[A]

That was not your relationship.

[B]

I don't want to communicate to my kids. Well, here's. Here's my. Here's what I think your mom did wrong or.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and here's what I did wrong. It's like the whole thing. I was trying to protect my kids and, like, keep that between us.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And. But didn't do the greatest job.

[A]

But you know what I see about all of it is I see a man who deeply, deeply loves each of his kids. And that time and space sure isn't making a dent in the amount of love that's there. And that you've been doing the best you could in really difficult circumstances. And I also hear that you probably, as one big takeaway from that, feel deeply misunderstood. Is that one of the biggest things that's come out of that?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And when we feel really deeply misunderstood, sometimes what happens with fathers the most, but also with. With anybody in this type of situation is it feels misunderstood. And you try and you don't know how else to try or what else to do. And then you can kind of get into a learned helplessness. And then we just internalize that feeling of loss. And then I'm guessing that this is where a lot of the codependency came out, which is so being so afraid of. Of losing again in that same way that now we're going to do anything to not lose. Is that.

[B]

Yeah, no, that. Yep.

[A]

Lining up with you.

[B]

Yes, it does.

[C]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

So let's go into that for a moment.

[C]

You did a really beautiful job of

[A]

sharing about your kids. I think it's a really powerful thing to. To touch on, you know, so. So. And not easy.

[C]

So.

[A]

So let's go into the codependent. Yeah.

[B]

I'm going to just tell you this because I feel like. I don't know. I'm not trying to avoid anything, and I know we don't have a whole bunch of time, but. But when, like, I had to really, like, fight and I lost my kids completely. My divorce started with a protection order. Like, I had no contact with my kids.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then it took about a year and a half for the divorce. And then she remarried immediately and tried to leave the state anyways. I didn't let him go. My kids were all angry at me, said that, you know, I hate my kids, and I'm trying to punish them by keeping them with me, and I'm taking them away from mom. But so my youngest daughter started interpreting. Like, everything I did is. I was coming from a place of, I, I hate you, and I'm trying

[A]

to, like, punish you, control, take you, keep you.

[B]

And so this narrative, like, even though I was a single dad, like, giving up everything I could to. Have my two daughters with me, but this perception of me kept growing with her, with my.

[A]

It was all seen through the lens of the conditioning.

[B]

And she really, truly believed that I hated her. And I wasn't. There was always conflict with me and her mom. She was always trying to get me to send them down there and quit and leave. And so I didn't. There was a big pile of stress that I wasn't always like. I would have burned downs with my daughter, and it was just because I was trying to manage too much, um, and rightful. I understand how she took it as I hate like, that. I didn't like her and I hated her.

[A]

She saw you get frustrated, and she took it through the lens of her conditioning, as we all do. I want to go back to the part where you are, like, doing everything you can to have your kids. Okay, so. So I want you because I get the sense that you feel like you didn't ever get to tell your truth. Is that fair? Like you felt misunderstood the whole time. Didn't really get to say, like, what your experience was to anybody. Is that fair?

[B]

Yeah, that's fair. Okay.

[A]

And that can feel really, really lonely and it can feel really confusing. It can be really scary. And I think this is an opportunity to just tell your truth for a moment. Like, what do you see when you look back? The first thing that stands out to me is I see that you as a father fought for your kids. I know when parents go through a divorce to then regain custody of your kids, I don't think there's a regaining of custody of your kids from the perspective of like, oh, you just show up and it just kind of magically unfolds. I think they were probably.

[B]

I had to restart from scratch. Like when I. I, like, literally did not see my kids for like, it took me like six months from the. When the divorce started. And then it was. I was seeing them supervised with somebody standing next to me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, every single word I said, I was supposed to act normal. And then I could see it was starting to affect my kids. So I gave up. I didn't give up, but I said, if you don't want me, I told my ex wife, okay, I'll sign these papers that say that I don't get any contact with kids because, like, I can see this is really, really affecting my kids that were getting caught in the middle of this.

[A]

In this part of the episode, you are going to see how Scott's big core wound being not good enough truly dictates so much of his behavior and wreaks havoc on his life. And what you're going to see is a tool called auto suggestion. It's a form of belief reprogramming. And what it does is it allows us to really reach the subconscious level of mind. Now, your subconscious mind speaks in emotions and imagery. It doesn't speak in language. So we're going to come up with 10 opposing pieces of evidence to the idea that Scott is not good enough, and instead see how he is good enough. But in order for this to actually permeate the subconscious level of mind, which is where the wound exists, we. We have to come up with really specific emotional pieces of evidence because the subconscious mind speaks in emotion and an imagery. And once we do this, we're gonna give this to Scott to take home so he can record himself Saying this out loud and listen back to it for 21 days. Because when we are visualizing and feeling about something in our body for 21 days in a suggestible state, which is in that first hour that we wake up or the last hour before bed, when our brains are producing more alpha brain waves, this information actually reaches the subconscious level of mind. And through repetition and emotion over time, we fire and wire new neural networks in our brain and ultimately transform these wounds completely. And if this is something you want to do at home, discover your own core wounds and do the rewiring work in the fastest way possible. You can check this out for free for a limited time in our Emotional Mastery and Belief reprogramming course, which you get 7 day free trial access to since watching this episode. And there's worksheets and really in depth video modules that will allow you to identify your wounds at home and begin the reprogramming work. Stay there for one second. I want to actually highlight all of your points as a father because you have this story that, like, I'm not good enough and I misunderstood and I see it and like, I actually want to go into all the things you did first that were good enough as a father. I just want to, like, take a look.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And you keep saying, oh, I made mistakes, I made mistakes. I'm sure there were mistakes. Human beings make mistakes. But I also want you to see yourself as a father just for a moment on the other side of that. So first things first, I fight for my kids, and I know that wasn't easy. Second thing, I am unconditionally loving enough as a father that I am willing to take a step back and hurt myself in the process of taking a step back if I think that I am putting my children in an uncomfortable situation where they're being affected. That's the second thing I just heard. Is that what was true for you was that your relationship to it?

[B]

Yeah, that's what happened.

[A]

So I want you to feel about that for a second. I want you to, like, actually go into your own experience and notice that there's a man who's willing to tear himself to pieces, to take a big step back from seeing his kids, just to make his kids a little more comfortable. I imagine that going through that experience wasn't very easy, but it's definitely a form of unconditional love. Is that fair?

[B]

That's my story. That's how I see it.

[A]

Well, I don't want to hear your story.

[C]

I want to hear your truth.

[A]

I want to hear Your truth.

[C]

I want to hear what it was for you. Yeah.

[A]

There could be multiple sides.

[C]

People can have different truths and experience. Somebody can feel one way and you could.

[A]

But I. I want to know what your relationship was to it. Is that what it was?

[B]

Yeah. And definitely it was hard because at the time, like, I didn't have any support and I didn't have any. When I signed off on my kids, like, I didn't know that I'd ever get a chance to.

[A]

To see them again. And what did you.

[B]

But I could see my youngest daughter especially, like, she was starting to get stomachaches and she was just. It was.

[A]

And so you thought.

[B]

Right. It was a really effector. And so I knew the only way to stop the fighting is just

[A]

to

[B]

give space, to give my now ex wife what she wanted, which was for me to be 100% out of the picture.

[A]

And I imagine that was one of the hard decisions, hardest decisions you ever had to make.

[B]

It was. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And the only motivation I can see for someone doing that is from a place of love. Is that fair?

[B]

That's where it came from.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So willing to love someone or five

[C]

little people more than.

[A]

Than yourself to be able to put their interests ahead of your own.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

So I think that's a good enough

[C]

thing to be doing.

[A]

You know, if that's all that you felt like you had as a choice at the time, I think that was the very big move from an unconditionally loving space. And what else do you see? What's. What keeps going in that story of you trying to show up. What happens next?

[B]

I think the. Took another seven or eight months, whatever it was, until the divorce went to court hearing, whatever. And then it was. That's where it was finalized. And I tried to

[A]

bring them back,

[B]

get custody again, and I had to fight for it again.

[A]

There's you never giving up. Right. There's you. Who's.

[C]

Who's going.

[B]

Well, when I. When I. Right. When I agreed to give up custody, I never. Like, that was my only purpose was. Was. Was being there for my kids in. Somehow in the future, in some way. I just didn't know what it was, but I didn't. That was the goal.

[A]

Yeah. And I bet that still exists.

[C]

We'll talk about that. We'll get there.

[B]

It still exists.

[A]

You may have lost some hope along

[B]

the way, but it still exists. I just. I want to give now. It's different now. It's. I don't want to. I want to respect my kids's agency And I don't want to push what I want on them.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so it's coming from it. I mean, I don't. It was about that, but now they're adults and now they're like, they can

[A]

make their own choices.

[B]

They can make their own choices.

[A]

And you're going to respect.

[B]

Even. Even if that's not. Yeah, not the choice I want.

[A]

I'm gonna get to something about that in a moment, but I want to stay on. On going through the experience of what happens next. So you fight for your kids again. You're still trying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And what happens. And you said to me I had to give up everything to become a single dad.

[B]

Yeah, pretty much. So then just divorce, finalized and. But I'm still fighting. Like, it started like, literally with a supervised or a. You know, that your typical four days a month, every other weekend.

[A]

And is there any way, looking back, that you can see how you're still being a good enough parent for your circumstances?

[B]

At the time I was showing up and I was giving up as much. Like, all my. My only focus was my kids. Really. And again, not saying I did it perfectly. I'm not saying pat yourself on the back, you're this amazing person. But that was the only thing that was important to me. And I tried really hard, like.

[A]

And what I'd, like, what did you give up? Tell me what you gave up.

[B]

Well, like, I took a job that allowed me to. Some flexibility, even though, like, it was almost an hour away, so. But if I said I need to stay home for my kids or something, he would let me work around it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so picked a career that was

[A]

gonna allow you to.

[B]

Yeah. So I had my two daughters full time during the week, and I would. I had one. One in junior high, one in high school. I'd have to, like, go drive, pick them up, different schedules, and I'd have to manage that with work and. But I was happy to do that. Yeah, it was. I. If I needed to work or drive, it's like if I only got a little bit of sleep that night because I had to leave early so that I could leave work early so that I could be back to pick him up for school so I can make all that work. I was happy to do it. Yeah.

[A]

And so there's you.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Doing the absolute most that somebody really can in that situation, seeking support, making sure that you change your job, making sure you have flexibility, working your schedule. It sounds like you kind of put your kids at the center of your universe.

[B]

Yeah, it started like as soon as I got time with my kids, I started taking my young girls to counselor and I picked somebody that I knew was not going to tell me what I wanted to hear.

[A]

Yes. Wow. I love that.

[B]

And so, because I didn't want, like, just my perspective and, you know, she was very good about talking to my kids and telling me, you need to do this, and it's not the way you see it. And this is what would be best for your kids if you try to resolve this situation by doing this. And it wasn't. It was rarely what I wanted or the way I saw it, but that's the whole reason why I went there. And it was, it was.

[A]

You were willing to let go of your ego mind's need to be right or to be the parent who should

[C]

get the say and willing to humble yourself and, and really sort of put

[A]

your entire ego aside and really lead with humility to be like, okay, what's the best thing? What's the best thing? And really show up for that.

[B]

Yeah. Because I know when emotions revolve, it's hard to. Yeah, it's hard to see what's. What do your kids need? Or what's the best thing? Or.

[A]

Absolutely. And so you said you had these big wounds around feeling not good enough and misunderstood. And I want you to check in with this one for a moment. I made myself feel not good enough about my kids. And I'm curious how that's come up for you over time.

[B]

Tell me that one more time.

[C]

Yeah, take your time. You're doing so good.

[B]

One more time.

[C]

So I want to see where this

[A]

shows up for you rather than the wound being that I wasn't good enough about, you know, when it came to. To my kids and to being a parent, I made myself feel like I wasn't a good enough father. And I'm curious if that resonates with you, if there were times that you beat yourself up in your mind all the time or. And, and tell me some specifics, like what are things that would happen,

[B]

anything that was happening that was not. I felt like I should have done more or I, you know, anytime with my kids or with I, I would take on the, well, I should have done more or I should have been more collected in that circumstance. Even though I honestly, I know, like, I don't. There's nobody that I know that if giving. Given everything they were trying to deal with that I was trying to deal with at the time, they wouldn't have done better than me. But I still feel like I sh. I could have and should have done better.

[A]

And there you were, working so hard, trying your heart out, trying to revolve your life around everything, making this your big focus. And then at the same time, every time that there was a little imperfection, beating yourself up. I should have done more. I should have tried harder. I should have shown up in a different way. And who do you become when you're carrying that level of pressure?

[B]

Well, you lose yourself.

[A]

Yeah. And you lose access to the best version of yourself.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you can just never do enough. And you probably burn yourself out a little bit.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And how has that shown up in codependency as a whole for you?

[C]

Do we see the thread?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

And how has that shown up for you as a person over time?

[B]

Over time? Well, I know in now, my current relationship, it's the exact same. Whenever things, when something starts to go backwards or wrong or negative, whether it's with her, with her kids, I feel like, responsible and I feel like I should have done more. I should have been able to handle that situation better. And even it doesn't even matter, like, if, like, decision, like it was 100, like, not my doing, or like I. I still feel like I should have done more. I should have been able to handle that situation better. And even though I don't, I can look back in that situation and say, I don't know a single person in my life that if they were in the same context. Same context, Those same circumstances would have done as good a job as my poor job.

[A]

And yet you love to just put the pressure and put the pressure and

[B]

put the pressure on myself.

[A]

And what is that costing you as a person?

[B]

A lot. A lot.

[A]

What comes to mind?

[B]

Well, I definitely can't function. I can't be myself. I can't be my loving. It just. It takes away and takes away.

[A]

And who's doing that to you?

[B]

Me.

[A]

And there must be something that you're so afraid of. If I stop doing this, if I

[C]

stop putting the pressure and being so perfect or putting all this perfection a

[A]

standard on myself, what are you so afraid of? Then I'll lose. I'll lose someone I love.

[B]

Yeah. I'm just going to say probably unloved and just. Yeah, lose.

[A]

And you've been through a lot.

[B]

Lose the people that I love.

[A]

Yeah. And so you think that by trying to perfect yourself and be more and do more and put all the pressure and. And do all of this, that that's going to give you a sense of control over not losing, but the reality is it's wearing you down and it's probably doing the opposite.

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

And if you didn't have that theme, that pattern where I'm putting pressure. Putting pressure. I have to do more. I should have handled this differently. I should have been differently here. In this theoretical world, just for a moment, how would you feel and how would you operate in. In relationships?

[B]

I'm 100 different. Like you can operate. It's. It's like driving a car when there's a 50 ton lead weight strapped to your car you're trying to drive and you can't drive that car like you do. You just can't. You're just gonna make a mess. And versus driving a car that is just free. That's like for you to be who you are. And yeah, so yeah, that's.

[A]

And the second piece, when you put all the pressure and do all these things because you're so afraid of losing notice, what happens to your relationship to yourself? What happens to your relationship to you? How would you describe what goes on internally?

[B]

Internally. It's not good. I would. You just feel like you're never enough and you're just very negative which where our focus goes and energy flows and.

[C]

Yeah, so.

[A]

And no one's there for you. Right. How can anybody be there for you if you can't be there for yourself? Correct. And there's this part where you leave you and you're out here trying to be perfect here and be perfect here and handle this differently and course correct over here. But there's no one there to support you and there's no one there to see what you need. And so we end up investing and also very much attracting dynamics and situations in our life that mirror back to us the way we treat ourselves. And I think the way out of a lot of this pain is going to be through starting to treat yourself differently first. Okay, So I want to start. We talked on a little bit of a level about your. Your past with not good enough. But I want to go into like rewiring this together for a moment. And actually obviously it takes her 21 days and we'll go through the tool but we're going to try to come up with 10 pieces of evidence of how you are good enough. Okay. And for you know, this a little

[C]

bit already, but I'll give you a quick refresher. Okay. So we have these wounds.

[A]

These wounds wreak absolute havoc on our lives. Okay. They burn us out, they break us down. They're terrible to carry, terrible burdens to carry.

[C]

I Think the truck with the big boulder on it is, or the 50 ton, you know, thing that you're carrying around is a good analogy for it.

[A]

And it's because we've been imprinted with this and we've recycled through it through repetition and emotion. And there are your neural networks. And now your brain just resorts back to seeing through that lens. Your subconscious mind moves through that space. And we need 10 pieces of evidence, 10 to 15 of how you are good enough. Okay.

[C]

And then you're gonna record them. We're gonna record them together. And you're gonna take this home. You're gonna listen back for 21 days, maybe even longer, because it's a very deep wound, okay.

[A]

And you like to attack yourself with it a lot, right?

[C]

You.

[A]

You go back here and you go back here again and. And we're gonna listen back and really feel about it. And the more specific we come up with examples, the better it lands, because the emotion imagery speaks to your subconscious mind. Okay. So I want to see you now. And now can be like right now. It can also be you as a person. And I want to look at where you are showing up. Good enough. And we're first gonna start with your relationships. Where are you? Good enough in your. And we'll start with your relationship

[B]

today.

[A]

Today.

[B]

You're gonna have to help me a little bit.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They give me a little bit more.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I'll start with you right here. Yeah, that's okay. Cause it's hard to see outside when

[A]

we have such a deep wound.

[C]

Right.

[A]

We have something in our brain called the reticular activating system, and it just

[C]

puts the blinders on and we just see through the wound.

[A]

And so here's the first thing I see, is that you are somebody who, as much as you need some boundaries sometimes, and to put yourself first sometimes, too. I see somebody who's literally willing to do just about anything for anybody. Is that fair?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And do you have a specific example of a time that you like, for all intents and purposes, as an analogy, took the shirt off your back for. For somebody you love, like, showed up,

[C]

left work, you know, something where you

[A]

stopped everything you were doing to be

[B]

there, current or in the past or

[A]

anything that comes to mind?

[B]

Well, one specific example that comes to mind is when I had my girls, my two daughters, by myself. I was working. And anyways, she woke up and she was not feeling good. And so I called up work and I said, hey, I'm not going to come in today. I'm just. My daughter's not feeling good. And they were. They were good about it, but I just stayed there, home, like, just on the couch just to. Because this is a girl that doesn't have her mother. And this is when.

[A]

And you're gonna be there as her father.

[B]

When you are physically ill, you feel alone. And you said, I didn't really have anything. I couldn't really do anything for her, but I just wanted to be present and let her know that, sure, you're more important than me than.

[A]

Than work responsibilities. Yeah, you're. You're more important than anything else.

[B]

I just stayed home.

[A]

And was that at a time that you were having a hard time in the relationship?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that relationship was always tricky. Very, very stressed.

[A]

And I just want you to notice that as hard as that relationship was, you were still willing to put everything aside. Okay. So I think that's a very good example. Okay. So with your daughter. And do you have another example of how you showed. And since we're talking about your kids, another way that you showed up good enough as a father? I think we had a couple that we can pull from earlier very easily that. That you change where you are working. Right. You literally were like, I'm gonna take

[C]

a job where I have to commute

[A]

an hour, but I have flexibility. So you put them as your number one priority, and you were willing to. Which I actually think is the single hardest thing for a person to do. I actually am not sure there's much more difficult than this. You were willing to step back if needed if you thought that was the best thing for your kids. So you're willing to put, like, that relationship that I know you wanted and that you needed. You were willing to put that aside if you thought that was the only option that was going to bring them some sense of peace or to not put them in the middle of the fighting. Is that fair to say that you were doing a very good job of making some very difficult decisions in that moment?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And that's not a situation for people with.

[C]

Who are.

[A]

It's not for the faint of heart to be in that.

[C]

No.

[B]

No.

[C]

And what do you see?

[B]

We all want to be right.

[C]

Yeah. And I actually think that that's another beautiful piece of evidence. You have a lot. You're gonna. We're gonna fly through this a little too quickly, but you have this one

[A]

thing that stood out as well that I thought was a beautiful example was when you said, when I went to see a counselor, I went to somebody who's going to tell me the Truth. I didn't go to somebody who was going to tell me, okay, like, everything's fine, it's going to be okay. You are willing to put yourself aside and the need to be right aside and humble yourself to say, okay, here I am, and I'm gonna put my

[C]

best foot forward and do whatever I

[A]

need to do to learn and to grow. And what's very interesting to me is it's almost like you're so far the other direction sometimes, where then you beat

[C]

yourself up for every little thing.

[A]

And we have to come to center

[C]

now by seeing both sides right.

[A]

Where it's okay to be wrong and make mistakes and own them. That's so important. And it's also okay to see where we are good.

[B]

I do try to see my mistakes and own them.

[C]

Yeah, I see that. And it's also okay to see where

[A]

you're good and to not be in

[C]

the pressure cooker all the time, because being too polarized there is very painful. And then makes us make mistakes even more sometimes. Right. And so, because then we're not treating ourselves as a human being, we're treating

[A]

ourselves as a robot that should always be on. And we dehumanize ourselves in that process. But going back to this, you went to see a counselor who was going to tell the truth. You were willing to be humble, not prideful, which is very powerful, not an easy thing for most people. And. And what else do you see, like, fast forwarding to life now where here you are. And, you know, one thing that shows up very strongly, I think, is that here you are

[C]

here. Here's Scott.

[B]

Here I am in Toronto.

[C]

Willing to grow. Right. Willing to put everything. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. It wasn't easy to come here, I bet.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And especially when I know that my. I don't know my. My story's not.

[A]

I want you to practice coming out of your story. See how you see your life through the external world's eyes and come back to your truth. You will always feel misunderstood when you see your life as a story to be determined by the outside world and instead, like, no, no, here's me. This is me. It's not about your story. It's about you as a human being. You're a human and you deserve to

[C]

have your own experience.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And so. So don't worry about your story. Here's your truth. Which is. The truth is, I bet it was uncomfortable to come.

[B]

It was uncomfortable. It was pretty quick. Petrified, honestly, because I'm a very emotional person. Obviously, you can see I don't like, shut off my emotions so that I can act rational and normal. I can't just, like, flip the switch where I don't care and I. Like. So that I can be calm and composed and fun and like. Like a normal person would be. That's not dealing with all these emotions. So, yeah, it was very. I knew. I knew exactly what I was gonna struggle to do. I knew exactly what I was getting into because I know how I am.

[A]

And so there's.

[B]

I know it'd be difficult for me to have, because I want to have open and honest conversations, and I know that's going to go to a place that's going to be really difficult emotionally.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I see that I am good enough as you by being able to and willing to put myself in very hard circumstances and very uncomfortable things at times, to grow and to be a better man all the time and to be the best version of myself that I can be, no matter what the cost. Is that fair?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And is that something you can be really proud of? I mean, that's not something that.

[B]

It's not something that a lot of people are willing to do.

[C]

Yeah, this is very true in a big way. And so. And I'm trying to record these down for you so that you have them to take home because. Because this is a good place to start. But then it's the repetition of it

[B]

because I really struggle.

[C]

And so what else do you see?

[A]

What else do you see in your relationship right now?

[C]

What do you see with Liesl?

[A]

Ways that you're showing up that are enough? I may say something, actually, before you answer, I think we have this idea that, like, being enough means doing everything right. Being perfect. Right.

[C]

You kind of refer to it yourself

[A]

indirectly quite a bit. Being enough means, like, being of character. That is enough. It means showing up in a way that, like, when nobody's watching, it's not for any, you know, expectation or to put on any presentation. It's like, who I am at my core, where I'm showing up. And I may be imperfect sometimes, but this is the character that I'm leading with. And that's what I want you to really practice seeing, because I can almost

[C]

tell by your body language you go into like. But I made mistakes. And. And I want you to just see you as a human being. Okay. So just where you're leading in your character with, it's okay to be imperfect,

[A]

but where are you leading as somebody who's doing the absolute best they can, putting their best foot forward, trying all the time. Trying to learn and grow.

[C]

Like, what.

[A]

What comes up for you?

[B]

Well, I came here not just for me, but I did come here with Liesl, for our relationship too, which is we. Actually. When I asked her to come, we were. We were. I don't know. We've ended. I've been telling you. We've been going through the cycle of off and on and ending. And I asked her. I actually asked her to come when we weren't speaking anymore, and.

[A]

And you said, I still want to not give up on what this is for us.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And what do you think it feels like to be on the other side of that, to feel like somebody's not giving up on you?

[B]

I know that's something that I've always hoped, but people would not give up on me.

[A]

Yeah. And so you're giving something very, very profound to somebody else. Do you see? And do you see that that's your character, to not give up.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And to always kind of make the best decision you can, not just for yourself, but for other people as well. Trying to think of them and take.

[B]

I do try.

[A]

Consideration. Yeah. And you may not be 100 perfect because nobody is, but there's. There's. You, like, putting your heart into trying to be your best version of that, that can provide that for other people. Is that fair?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. When Lisa left in June of last year, she left the state. We told you this, like, it was really. I didn't agree with it, and it was just a really hard thing. It was not only losing her, but losing the kids again. And. But I tried to be supportive of it. Supportive of it, especially to the kids. Like, I remember telling the kids specifically, like, this is going to be a good thing for you. You guys are going to get a new start. I want you guys to follow your mom and. Support her.

[A]

And there's you doing what? Trying to be as unconditionally loving as you can, trying to put their experience and their life ahead of you. Is that fair?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In this segment of the episode, you're about to see how Scott's big fear of being abandoned actually causes him to self abandon. And you'll all see this if you carry a big abandonment core wound. The number one way people tend to cope with this wound is they abandon themselves to please others to avoid getting abandoned. But the moment they abandon themselves, they keep the wound alive. So we're about to audit all the different ways that Scott often abandons himself in the name of not being abandoned by others. And what we can start doing instead you know, it becomes abundantly clear to

[C]

me

[A]

is that you are doing more than enough.

[C]

The fact that you can't see how good enough you are in relationships is wild and is going to take some good reprogramming and listening back and feeling about it.

[A]

But I'm curious if there's a part, and I want to come back to this in a moment where you sometimes give up on yourself a little bit too much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And forget about like what you need and what you're feeling and taking that into consideration. Like almost.

[C]

Almost. Try to be good enough to a fault.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That there's this.

[A]

The focus and not being good enough kind of causes you to abandon yourself a little bit. And then they end up linking together. I feel like there's this little.

[C]

These two wounds seem to be chained

[A]

together like very close cousins in a sense.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. So we have many. We already have more than 10. But is there anything else that.

[A]

That comes to mind, just at a high level for how you are good enough? Just at a level like as a person in your career and the way that you work and the way that you, I mean, joined the school and are putting work into your own journey on your own time? Like, what else do you see that's good enough about you?

[B]

Well, I did join the school. Your school. It's. It's. It's because I want to become better and I want to. And not that there was like any. I feel like like almost everybody I know could benefit from what I'm learning and not just like. Or maybe everybody I know

[C]

and notice you though, notice that there you are.

[A]

And your character as a person is to take something hard and to try to turn into something beautiful. Right. Like I always say to people, like

[C]

those tools just exist somewhere on the Internet. They're just out there on the Internet somewhere.

[A]

And the type of people who come into the school are people who are self starters, who did their own research to find something, who are trying to evaluate themselves and figure out who they are and what they're doing wrong, who are on a personal growth journey, who are trying to take accountability. Like there's so many.

[C]

There's five right there. Good enough traits or is it fair

[A]

to say that those line up with how you are?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And somebody who. I think.

[C]

What were you gonna say?

[B]

I was just gonna say it's really uncomfortable and hard for me to.

[A]

To own it.

[B]

To say all the positive things that you just said. Yeah, it's difficult for me.

[A]

That's why we're gonna record them down for You. And you're just gonna listen back.

[C]

Okay, don't worry about that part. We'll take care of that for you. But.

[A]

But that's the piece where the deeper the wound is, the harder it is to let it land and to feel. And so the goal. It's because our subconscious mind wants to protect this comfort zone. Right. Because this is what we've been surviving this long.

[C]

So as hard as it is, this has been working for us.

[A]

But then your conscious mind can logically recognize and say, wait, it's. This is not working. Like me putting all this pressure and me not taking myself into consideration. Me going back through these things isn't really working. And so I have to actually see that I am good enough and start honoring myself a little bit more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then as I'm able to do that, I can be more authentic. I can speak my own needs. I can start taking myself into consideration. I can stop abandoning myself over and over again and see that I'm a human being too. So the not good enough and actually rewiring, that will be what gives you the room to do that. Okay, so tell me one more for not good enough. We're gonna have like 20.

[C]

Give me one more. And then we're gonna move on to the next part of it. Where else are you good enough? Is there anything in just another area

[A]

of life, like career, even friendships, Any other relationship dynamic in. In family, parents, cousins, siblings, just anything that comes to mind of where you show up in a good way.

[B]

You bring up parents. That's a hunt. That's another. And my. My immediate family, like my brothers and my siblings and my parents, this might be a whole nother rabbit hole, but so that all relationship all came to an end the same time my divorce started. Actually. I was in a family business with my brothers and my dad for 17 years. And there was some issues in the dynamics there that kind of came up. But

[C]

we.

[B]

We all have our. We. We. We all see our truths. Right. So they felt like I attacked them. I felt like they attacked me. But needless to say, that relationship came to a blunt end.

[A]

Okay. I want to come back into that at a high level.

[C]

That'd be for another full discussion for sure.

[B]

This is. I told you, there's so many.

[C]

Yeah, that's okay. That human. Yeah, there's. There's.

[B]

So when that started, I didn't just lose my wife and my kids. I lost even through my best friend who was my brother. I lost my parents. I lost.

[A]

And I actually want to go into. I want to circle back to that in just one second. But I want to see just at a high level. Is there anything in that relationship dynamic with family when things were really hard and the loss was starting to unfold? Is there anywhere where you still tried to show up as good as possible and with character, despite how difficult things were?

[B]

That one took me a little while, but I will say I kept taking my kids to family dinners and family events. We were. Because my kids growing up were. They were heavily involved with. With my extended. With that family.

[A]

Your family?

[B]

Yeah, very heavily. It was their whole life spent summer vacations with their cousins and my parents. And during that time, when I started to get access to my kids, I would take them to family events.

[A]

Even though it was hard for you,

[B]

it was hard for me. And I was seen as the black

[A]

sheep, the bad guy, misunderstood. And so there's you again. Being able to put yourself aside and show up.

[B]

Even though I wasn't like, I. Yeah, I remember going out to my mom's house for Mother's Day one day. Because even though, like, I had, there was still unresolved pain. Pain and issues there, but. Still my mom.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And you were still gonna show up.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah. So you have this really, really big, strong capacity to push through really hard things. Right.

[B]

And to keep showing up.

[C]

Which brings me to the next point that I want to get into. Even more than enough.

[B]

I tend to push through.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Where I should stop.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And then that costs you.

[B]

It cost me myself.

[A]

Because nobody can sacrifice forever without it eventually coming out in some kind of other form. And your fear of not being good enough is so strong that I think it drives this. Okay, well, if I'm not good enough, then I'll be abandoned and I'll lose. So I'm going to put all this

[C]

pressure, more than maybe anybody that I've met, to be good enough so I don't lose and so I can control the outcome.

[A]

And then nobody can withstand that sense of pressure without it coming out in different forms. And then maybe you accidentally push people away with that frustration sometimes because you're internalized. Internalized, internalized, internalized forever. And so I'm curious and you know, we probably don't have time to go

[C]

into the whole thing, but is there

[A]

a theme when you look at what happened with your family? You know, without all the details of everything, was it also. I was self sacrificing to a T. I was feeling not good enough, Putting pressure. I was afraid of losing the relationships. And so that was part of what caused some of the, the. Yeah, yeah, same thing exactly.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

And so these are big patterns. These have been. And are these the source of like all the major hard things in your life or at least after your divorce

[B]

up until that point? Yeah, I would say. And like. Yeah, it's, it's caused a lot of.

[A]

Was there any of it in your marriage originally? I put myself aside. I. Sacrifice. Sacrifice, Sacrifice.

[B]

Well, I wouldn't say I was selfless in my marriage.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

You know, it's like, it's funny. I know I don't know how to not take a lot of time, but, you know, my. What, what gave me a sense of that I was showing love and I guess I'm wired to provide and protect. And my wife never worked, which I was proud of. That's what I wanted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's not to say she didn't do anything. She was awesome. She was a wife, she was a mother. All the things that were important to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was self employed, so I worked a lot of hours.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, you know, I wasn't home as early as I would have liked. Like, if I could go back. That's kind of something I regret. Maybe I worked a little too late. But I was also.

[C]

Maybe I could have done more things perfectly.

[B]

Yeah. More. More things perfectly. But I was also trying to provide.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

A good lifestyle for like, comfortable. Not, not like, you know, but I did play.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I, I, I had, I feel like I had a. Not all the way in balance. Sometimes I played too much, like recreated too much. But at the same time I was home. Like, I never worked the weekend.

[A]

You say play, you meant like when it went out. Sometimes hobbies.

[B]

Hobbies, like, which were like, with my brother.

[C]

Like kids at first.

[B]

Oh, yeah. But I did lots of things. Like, I was like, I was in scouting with my oldest son and like I went on every single camp out and like for two years, like, I went on like 50. I don't know, I did like one a week, but, you know, and I would go to like, scout camps where it's like a week long where I was just a dad, I didn't need to go. And most, even the leaders would only go. They'll split it up and. But I would go the whole week because I wanted to be there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I, you know, it's, it's like, which perception do you want to see of me?

[A]

Like, how about all of them?

[C]

How about your truth? Right. Like, how about the fact that my

[B]

truth is I showed up, I feel like more or a Lot. And that's what gave us the relationship, which is that we had. Which I feel like that's why things went so bad, because there was a relationship there that was so good. And if there wouldn't have been this close relationship with me, with all of my kids. Even. Even. And I know my. My oldest son is probably the hardest one. I know he feels like I. I didn't love him and.

[A]

But he felt like that because of how close you were at a point,

[B]

like I said with that. Just that one little example where I took him and his friends, like, we could go. It was never like, oh, I don't want you around. Like, I was embarrassed about you.

[A]

Like, which is crazy.

[C]

That never happens for teenagers, right?

[B]

Exactly. Like, I don't. There's not a lot of teenagers that are like, cool if your dad stops by the high school and has lunch with you. Like. But, you know, I. Because that relationship was so strong that when it. When it falls, it's a giant that falls. And it falls hard.

[A]

And the further the fall from grace.

[B]

Yes. So I feel like that's my truth of why I think your soul went. That the hard feelings are so hard because there was a relationship. There was a lot of love there that was established. Not like I told somebody I love them. Like, established over patterns of years and years and years and years seeing it. Of them seeing it. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

And not that I couldn't have done better. I know. I. I'm terrible about this.

[C]

No, that's okay.

[B]

Because I. I honestly, I don't want to come across. I never. My. One of my biggest fears is coming across is like, oh, I do this. All this so good. And I'm so perfect. And that's not me.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I want you to notice the really important difference between.

[B]

So it's hard for me.

[A]

Things you did do. Because you've spent so much time in the things that you didn't or should have done or could have done. Like.

[C]

And do you notice in your body,

[A]

like, what it actually, like, when you go through the things that were good enough, like, how do you actually feel?

[B]

I feel. It feels very good.

[A]

Yeah. Like relief.

[B]

Like, relief.

[A]

Yeah. And because it's a heavy burden to walk around all day on its opposite of like, oh, I'm not good. I'm not good. I'm this. I should have done this. That's. It's too much for one person to carry all the time. And so when you feel this relief of, like, okay, I'm seeing my truth, you seeing that doesn't have to be. You don't have to keep proving to

[C]

yourself that, oh, then I still made mistakes.

[A]

You're allowed to just step into it and feel about that and be like, yeah, humans are imperfect. I'm imperfect, and they're imperfect things that happened. And I think I've spent enough time talking about those ones to myself. And maybe it's time to give myself a little bit of relief and reprieve and start seeing my truth as well. As much as I see. Because your identity is very hooked in on what people see of you.

[B]

Yes, it is. That's a big problem.

[A]

And that's a very good way to feel lonely all the time.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And the more you're able to sit and like, hold on a second. I'm allowed to have a truth. I'm allowed to notice my truth. I'm allowed to look outside of the perception that that's been created, and I'm able to actually honor this and own this. And sometimes when you sit in the ways you were good enough, it actually allows you to feel like, oh, maybe I can speak or reach out or say something. And so, so, you know, going into. I'm going to offer you two options to touch on right now. Okay. One is noticing your needs more as a person right now and how that will relate into your relationships. Because when we never can see ourselves and we leave ourselves lonely all the time and we're in the abandonment and the favor of being good enough, then sometimes we don't recognize our needs and then we don't get to communicate them. Or by the time we do, we're framing them negatively because we're hurt and we're frustrated because we've abandoned ourselves. And then we feel abandoned because nobody else sees us. And then we just want somebody to not give up on us. And we're trying so hard not to

[C]

give up on everyone else.

[A]

And, and so sometimes there's that peace. But also because we've talked a lot about your kids, I just also want to offer up a different path. It's like, choose your ending.

[C]

Okay. Which is what's up for you next

[A]

in that relationship and those relationships. And what's this possible for you?

[B]

Well, I will say I, I, I've had this, like, I don't know that. I do just want to make sure that, like, I come across. I guess my truth with my kids is I don't want them. Whatever feeling they had through this process, through the divorce and all these things that have happened, like, the last 12 years that I have to Interrupt you.

[A]

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I just want to ask you one really important thing. Had you seen yourself at the time, had you seen yourself like what you were feeling, what you were needing, actually given like an ounce of credence to your own needs in the relationship with your kids and your ex wife, what would you have done differently from what point if you had actually honored that you're allowed to have feelings and needs in the situation. You're allowed to have your own truth.

[B]

Well, we wouldn't have got divorced.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

The divorce happened because I let other people's. Truths and their perceptions and bulldoze yours

[A]

out of the way.

[B]

Bulldoze mine. And I'm not speaking about my wife,

[A]

but things outside that.

[B]

Things outside. And I abandoned myself and

[A]

it's a big one. And what would have happened with your kids? They wouldn't got hurt or, or in the very least you would have gotten to speak up a little bit. Because I feel like there was this part of you that was just silenced the whole time in. In the name of being a good dad, being the protector, not putting them in the middle, which is very honorable. But that's going to be such an important pattern to break going forward. Because if you keep doing that, then you keep getting into a dynamic where you literally abandon yourself, nobody hears your truth, and then you end up. You never get seen, you never get understood, your perspective never gets heard. And then there is a room for people to paint you however they want. There's nobody like, counteracting that perception by sharing their own truth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're at the mercy of, as a human being, whatever. The world just stamps on you. You're like, okay, this is what I am now. And that seems to be a very pivotal part in the downfall of themes in your relationship. And I think you've done an incredible job, a truly honorable and incredible job of like, showing up anyways, despite that. But I think one of the most important things that you'll ever do for the entire rest of your life is allow yourself to have a truth and allow yourself to speak on it a little bit more. Do you see how that's a theme in the past there?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay. I'm sorry for interrupting you.

[C]

Go back to what you were saying. I just, I. It was too important not to say.

[B]

No, no, no, no. I appreciate that. And actually that's when things turned like there was this year. So I had had an affair and it came to my wife and said, you know, this is basically, I Laid like, everything I've ever done in my life. Like, hey, here's everything that I've been trying that. My issues, my personal things that I've been working on that mistakes and, you know, laid it all out. I left nothing. Like. And said, if you need to leave me, I understand. I don't want to. Like, I want this. I want our family. Like, I was using coping mechanisms to deal with life when I didn't know how to cope.

[C]

Better yet.

[B]

Yeah. Like, life's not going the direction I don't. I don't know. I need and I don't. Didn't know how to cope with it. I had an unhealthy coping mechanism.

[A]

I never spoke my needs to you. And so they had to. I. My brain started looking for needs elsewhere, which was usually how affairs start.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Root problem. I wasn't speaking my needs.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Keep going.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It's difficult for me to, like, allow

[A]

yourself to have needs and to be a human.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And anyway, so we had started working on it. And about halfway into that, about six months into that, like, I was getting pressure outside pressure from. To do it a different way. And then I needed to handle what I was handling my family a different way, that I was doing it wrong. And I need to do it their way. And they kept pushing and kept pushing and I finally gave in and said, okay. And I. As it would. As a. Like, that's the only time. Event. And then it took me to a very bad place as far as, like, I just was not. And eventually, about three months later, I just withdrew. I didn't think. I didn't believe anybody loved me. And that's the only time in my life when I've withdrawn. Like. And I. Like that happened because what you said, like, I allowed somebody else to. I didn't follow what I knew was right for me. Even though every. Who cares what anybody in the world sees and thinks was right or the way I should be handling. I knew what was right for me and my family.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I knew it would give me the outcome. Positive outcome that I wanted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But because somebody else had a different perception, I didn't set a healthy boundary and I abandoned myself. And. And that's when. That's what my kids saw, is I unraveled and withdrew. Withdrew.

[A]

And then they make that mean something.

[B]

And that's shortly after she filed for divorce. And that's when everything completely unraveled. But.

[A]

And as hard as that is to see. Seeing the truth is a loss. It was what will allow you to break it. Right. It's like that pattern until constantly tended to and change will just keep causing havoc in your life. And you actually changing that pattern first may actually be the thing that allows

[C]

you, and who knows, maybe for another

[A]

discussion, but it allows you to maybe reconnect one day with, with family members if they're willing. And, and in a way that you see fit, if you speak your truth of how you feel and how much you care and you never know. So that could be a follow up discussion maybe.

[C]

But I want to just ask you

[A]

one really important thing which is what are things that you need now from the relationships around you that maybe you're not giving yourself permission to see?

[B]

Okay, I want to come back to that, but if I can. Whatever, sorry. I just want to say that like I, I just want this to be in here somewhere. That I would never tell my kids that what they, what they felt during that time was wrong or they were wrong. I've had people tell me, well, your kids, how dare they not speak to you or you know, you're their dad and that's not right. And then, and I've told those people, don't you dare contact my kids. Don't you dare call my kids and tell them they're wrong.

[A]

They should be doing something different. How they cope.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That what they saw and felt was wrong. Like so I would never. I, I understand in a lot of ways probably more than they think where, what it, what they would have sawn. Like, I can't understand, I can't say that I understand you because I'm not them. But, but I can try to see like where you were coming from.

[A]

That's called true empathy.

[B]

And so like I would never ever tell my kids any of them that they're wrong and that things like, that their emotions and the things that they felt were, were wrong. Like, yeah, and I'm right. No, that is not, I 100% do not feel that way.

[A]

I think what you're saying in more detail.

[B]

I'm explaining this the right way, but

[A]

you were saying it beautifully. I'm just gonna repeat it back to you and tell me if this is articulating it is you understand completely how from their perspective when you, for example, did things like withdrew when you were in so much pain, that they might have made that mean that they were unloved or they might have made that mean that they were abandoned. And you get what it's like to feel that way and take that on and draw meaning from something whether or not it's true. Because it's very easy to, especially when you're a kid, to. We're always just trying to make meaning out of things. That's what we're trying to understand our world through. And so they may have seen it that way, even though that wasn't your relationship to it. And the relationship is very clear that you were never not loving them. Right. That's.

[C]

That's loud and clear.

[A]

And that you were never, you know, trying to hurt them in any way. And you know that from relationship to your experience and your truth. But they, of course, they have their own way that they would have perceived and felt in that situation because of their experience. And neither one is right or wrong. It's just that both of those truths are. Those truths are allowed to coexist.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so coming forward to that, I think it's beautiful that you said that. Coming forward, what are things that you're not communicating now that you need? And it doesn't have to be in any particular relationship you can share about, Liesl, friends, things that work. What's. What are things that you actually need? Because I get a sense that there's probably not a lot of time spent

[C]

going in and, like, looking around there to see what you need.

[B]

Boy, I guess what I need to be. I need to be seen for what I'm doing, what I am. And like.

[A]

Okay, turn that around for me for one second, though. I need to see me for what

[C]

I'm doing and what I am.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And both are true. Okay. So I think you need to ask to be seen or maybe, you know, notice your effort and your care and maybe reassured about that. Is that fair? Like, how much you're trying and for somebody to see that and appreciate it a little bit, acknowledge it.

[B]

It's really hard for me to. It's like, I see it and I understand it. It's. It's really difficult for my brain, my subconscious mind to.

[C]

That's why I wrote.

[B]

I know. That's the great thing about, like, everything that you teach is it makes complete sense in my world, like, of what I've. What I've experienced, positive and negative, that. It's super difficult for me, like, to say, hey, you know, I did this good thing. And.

[A]

But we're going to practice listening every

[C]

day, and you're going to see you. And once it's in there, your particular

[A]

activating system will change a little bit and you'll start to see a little bit outside of that as well. Okay. So you'll start to See, like, hold on a second here. Once. Once that's in, your filter will come off a little bit and you'll be

[C]

able to actually notice things that you're doing that are good enough, and so

[A]

that will come more naturally. But what do you need? Like, what would it look like for somebody else to see. See you. Would it be them saying, hey, like, just acknowledging the effort you put in and just saying thank you?

[B]

Yeah, just an acknowledgment is. I don't even need a thank you. Just an acknowledgement acknowledgment.

[C]

Good.

[A]

That's beautiful.

[B]

Just.

[A]

It's a very fair ask just to. Just to feel noticed a little bit and how, like, much you pour yourself

[C]

into things and trying your heart out. Is that fair? Yeah.

[A]

And what else? There's going to be a couple other big needs in there. Do you want to feel like there's a sense of consistency in your life with other people? Sometimes? That.

[B]

Yeah, that's a. That's. That's definitely a big thing. You need the consistency where. That definitely goes back to my relationship. I want consistency. Consistency. And I need consistency. Like, we've talked and how it's been off and on and off and on and off and on. And like, literally we went. I asked Liesel to go, sorry, we need to go. That's okay.

[A]

And.

[C]

Well, it's okay. We can always end it. I'll just take. I'll be like, two, three more minutes. Thank you. No, no, you're wonderful. Thank you. I was trying to look because I saw you doing it, but I couldn't see quite. So. Thank you.

[B]

We literally went in. Like, I asked Lisa to come. She said yes. The next day, I think she panicked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And said, I need. You're either going to move here and marry me or we need to go our separate directions. So it, like, it was her out, which she knew. Like, she left the state. And I've already told her, I can't chase you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And follow you there and marry you. Like, if we're going to do this, we need to start on a. And I just back and forth like, three times. Like, just in, like, four days of canceling flights, of, you're the best person in my world. And then the next day, all you do is make me feel horrible. And I'm not saying these things to put her down, just that the consistency is like, am I a good person or I am the worst thing that's ever happened to you? Which. Which one is it?

[A]

And also, like, I can't not acknowledge that for you, the amount of suffering that. That probably feels. Because you know how triggering works. It's like our stored subconscious stuff gets brought up, and you've got a lot of stored subconscious loss. So you've been through a lot of loss. Right. And that'll be for, like, a second wound. I'll give you some. Some homework for abandonment, too. But you've been through a lot of loss. And so it's not gonna be the typical person experience with inconsistency, like Bob over here.

[B]

It's not gonna be. Yeah, there's a huge gaping wound there.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And so when the bandit gets ripped off, it's gonna be like a big feeling for you. It's not gonna be small. And so that has to be, like, recognized and honored a little bit, too. And we'll get into maybe talking about

[C]

that together in a little bit. But. But I think that's going to be a big one.

[A]

And I think it's important to share in that discussion later on why that's a big deal so that there's more insight and empathy and understanding for your experience when that happens. Because it's very easy when somebody's panicking to go hot and cold and to just see themselves because they're having their own experience of fear.

[B]

That's our new human nature. That's like, what we do. Everybody does it. Like, everybody. I know, Like.

[A]

But sometimes it's really helpful to truly hear and see your loved one's context, because it's like, oh, I have to take how my actions are a little bit differently because that's the degree of suffering I might be touching in you. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's going to be important for her to see that and just know, and we'll all help share that context. Okay.

[C]

Tell me one more need we're going to work on.

[B]

Oh, shoot.

[C]

Acknowledgement is important.

[A]

Consistency. And is there anything where you need a little bit of reassurance? Sometimes a little bit of certainty?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

The certainty and reassurance. Yeah, actually. Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I. I'm to the point. Like, if we're talking about the relationship, like, I need. I need certainty that we're.

[A]

We're gonna try something.

[B]

We're. We're in this relationship. We're not. Maybe we're not in it with one foot. We're. We're not like, maybe hot, cold. We're like, kind of sort of. We're gonna try this out a little bit. Like, I need to know we're going

[A]

this direction, and you'll be surprised when we do communication work at how much that's actually available. I think you think that you and Liesl has to be 100% in for it to be there. But she can say to you, hey, I'm, I'm scared, Scott. I'm scared. I'm having doubts that we're gonna hurt each other or I'm scared about the future. But I'm here to try. I'm still here. I'm trying. I'm with you. Like, even if she can't give you certainty in the exact form that you need at all times to say, I'm not giving up, I'm putting the work in, I'm here, we're gonna work through this right now. Whatever's coming up for us, we're gonna work through. Just that type of certainty in that moment will help take the weight off instead of just feeling the distance and then there's nothing there. And so you may have to work through some things to get to a point where you're like, we're fully ready to get married or to be committed. But in the meantime, certainty can look a lot of different ways. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So we'll, we'll work on some of

[C]

communicating those together in a little bit.

[A]

Okay. So in summary, okay, you, you.

[B]

I'm a big orange.

[C]

No, you did incredible. You should be so proud. You should be seriously so proud. You were amazing and, and you just went right into some of the stuff. So just, yeah, amazing courage and thank you for, for everything that you shared. And what I'm gonna give you to take home is the not good enough reprogramming. I'm gonna make sure it's all nicely organized for you. We're gonna record it for you so

[A]

you can actually listen back to it every day and start feeling and seeing about it. And then I'm gonna also say for these needs and we'll talk about them in the couple session, but it's gonna be really good to do self acknowledgement,

[C]

to meet them yourself as well. Okay.

[A]

And that's how we really, like have the needs come full circle. Consistency in self. We're gonna talk a little bit about how you can meet that in yourself and be a little more consistent about seeing yourself honoring your truth. I mean, you love to go into the perceptions of others around you and forget about that. You are a human with your own truth. And consistency is going to mean being able to consistently come back to that sometimes and not forget that you also are allowed to have a truth and be your own person in that. And then certainty ways that you can give yourself certainty, which we'll talk a little bit about in the session as well. Okay.

[B]

So my takeaway from this time here, ties, is so graciously, graciously extended to me is my core wound definitely of feeling that I am not enough. I'm not good enough, Has affected me. Being able to. It's prevented me from being able to show up at them authentically as who I am. And I feel like that's. That's one thing that I have truly missed from pre divorce is, is I was able to show up as myself and. And majority of the time and be who I was. And I did a lot of great things because I was able to be authentic to myself. And definitely it has affected where I'm at for. Since that period of time in the last 10 years. It's very negatively affected my life and kept me from accomplishing and growing and becoming more of who I am.

[C]

Thank you so much.

[B]

You've been amazing. Truly amazing. I. I appreciate what you do. I. Yeah.

[A]

Thank you so much for.

[C]

For being so vulnerable and sharing yourself with me. It's an honor.

[B]

It was great. Thank you.

[C]

Thank you. Beautiful. Okay. Thank you. So to sort of wrap the story piece, but you were so good. You. Yeah. Thank you so much. This is one of my favorite conversations I've had in a long time, so thank you.

[A]

Just, like, the vulnerability of things goes such a long way, so thank you.

[C]

And you should be proud and honest.

[A]

You want to know something?

[C]

I don't. I always.

[A]

I don't tell people this, but my dad and my mom had a really, really bad divorce, and I didn't talk to my dad for a few years. And I was. I was your kids. Right. I was like, on that end of it.

[B]

You understand that.

[A]

So much misunderstanding. And my dad just once a week would just send a letter or message or say, miss you. We're thinking of you, and all this stuff. And when I was able to come out of a lot of the conditioning I was getting from my mom, who just was telling her own story in her own way, like. Right. Just trying to control the narrative from her side. It was really powerful to know that that care was there. And so I think if your kids ever do see anything like this, I think they'll. My dad's gonna watch this episode. He's gonna cry his own eyes.

[C]

I'm listening to your story. You're gonna insire him. So that's nice, but there's gonna be a Lot of people who a resonate with that, and a lot of people have been through that. And also, I think if your kids

[A]

ever come across this, I think it's gonna really deeply touch them, so.

[B]

Yeah, I appreciate that extra.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I have a question for you. Like, do you feel like I came across at any point, like, negative tiddly towards their mom?

[A]

No. You did a beautiful job of not doing that at all, despite.

[B]

Because. Yeah, that's something I don't want to ever do.

[A]

If there's anything you don't feel comfortable or you want to.

[B]

I just was asking from your perspective, if I ever think of a thing.

[A]

Did you think that at all?

[C]

Yeah. No.

[A]

No, I didn't get any.

[B]

I don't want. Like, if my kids ever did, I don't think they ever will, but if they ever did listen to it, I wouldn't want them to think that I said something negative. No, I'm like, number one, about them and their perception is wrong, and two, that their mom caused this. And this is, you know, I'm trying to blame.

[A]

No.

[B]

Anything. All this bad stuff.

[A]

Nothing like that. Nothing like that. And. And if it makes you feel comfortable, I'll even, like, we'll go back through the episode and let you take a listen if you thought there's anything you want to take out or anything.

[B]

Well, just maybe as you guys are going through it, maybe just so you're. You're looking for that, I think you'll see it more than I do. My honest opinion, especially you as a child that's been through.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. The victim and all that.

[B]

You would have maybe.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

A good perspective. Honestly, as somebody who sort of sees all sides to things in that way, I would give it like a zero out of.

[C]

Out of ten. Yeah. I don't think there was any part

[A]

of you, if anything, I think you were making a really concerted effort to be really mindful about how you spoke of both your kids and your ex. And that's not an easy thing to do in the situation. So. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, thanks.