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- [00:00]
A
When you have adhd, you need to be in alignment with your needs. Like I got diagnosed with ADHD as a, as a teenager and was prescribed 80 milligrams of Vivaca. They thought I had some serious ADHD and don't take it. I haven't taken anything like that in years. But like, I just know about myself that I have to be really good at delegating things I don't want to do and really saying the things I do want to do and then I thrive. And that's the hyper focus part. Right. Is that when you're doing things you're really in alignment with and your needs are met, you can hyper focus and you can be super present and, and then you need to be really good at delegating otherwise. Right. So the first thing before anything else, just from like you and I chatting a little bit earlier too, is, is you started, you went into law and you like all your needs are not met. So then it's very hard to focus. Then that kicks up the defective core wound which then causes you to go into the shame spiral and then that puts your nervous system then into freeze mode. Those two things together.
- [00:52]
B
Yeah.
- [00:52]
A
So it then becomes like you sort of have this three pronged approach to, to solve for it. Welcome to the Breakthrough with Thais Gibson podcast today. Our amazing guest is him, Ranjeet, who's actually gonna be talking about burnout and some really chronic burnout issues that he struggled with on and off throughout the course of his life. And you'll see us break down a few really important pillars. Pillar number one is how we can easily be burnt out when we're not aligning the things that we actually are interested in. In other words, our subconscious needs with our conscious mind's goals or the things that we're committing to. We're always gonna be in a state of chronic resistance and you're gonna see us break this down in the episode and it's. And I want you to see if this relates to you at home and you can even go through seeing some of these needs and trying to recognize if there are patterns and themes that may be learning leading to burnout in your own life. The second thing you're going to see us break down is when we have a lot of core wounds or triggers around things, then that exhausts us. It causes us to have more stressful thoughts, more stressful emotional reactions, which in turn dysregulates our nervous system. And so we're going to go through some core wound rewiring exercises that he's going to be able to do to really transform the these triggers. The last thing we're going to dive into is some tools for getting out of dorsal vagal shutdown mode, which you'll see is often a theme in him's life. And you'll be able to learn and practice these tools at home yourself.
- [02:08]
B
Oh, hi, I'm him. I'm from Toronto. And today I'm here to kind of work on burnout as well as, like, how to get out of, like, a functional freeze space that I've been on in the last year or so. So just navigating that.
- [02:20]
A
Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. So I'm really grateful that you're here and really excited to talk about all of this. And. And if you can just start by telling the listeners a little bit about your backstory. So a little bit about your childhood, your upbringing, and what brought you to who you are today.
- [02:36]
B
Yeah, so I'm originally from Nepal, and so I grew up in Nepal till I was 10 years old. I had an upper ring and grew up with my grandparents there, my mom. It was a big family and a lot of loving space. So I was there TILL I was 10. And then I moved to the US when I was 10 years old and my dad was already there. So. So we navigated the move at that time. And when I was in the US Me and my mom, our visa expired, so we grew up undocumented there. So we had to navigate a lot of life around that. So a lot of my childhood revolved around partly how to navigate being undocumented, the uncertainty around it as well as, you know, my relationship with my dad was a little more conflictual because he wasn't there during my childhood. I didn't care about me, but he his that I have issues of control. And so that led to a lot of conflict in my household. So there was a lot of teenage years where there was a lot more conflict, a lot of uncertainty that I was navigating through, a lot of emotions around that. And then after that. Yeah, so went to university in Texas. Then I moved to Canada.
- [03:37]
A
So in that whole season, I mean, that's a lot of things that. That was a good description of your childhood, too. Would you say that from the time you moved at 10 years old and you were undocumented? I know that for a lot of people, when they make a huge move to a totally different country, especially at a young age already, that's overwhelming and a little bit overstimulating. And then on top of that, to end up in a dynamic where you're undocumented. Do you remember anything about what you felt during that time and how was that treated? Was it like, oh my gosh, you're going to be picked up and detained and deported and there was a lot of fear mongering around it or was it just a be careful kind of thing? And it was just some inconveniences. Like what was your relationship to being undocumented?
- [04:14]
B
It was a mix of both, actually. Yeah, there was on a day to day basis as far like be careful, like we are be, you know, navigating this and. But there would be, when there were more intense times, they would like, my parents were good enough to like let me know since I was young that look, you know, there are the extreme consequences where if you get picked up, you can get separated, all of that. So that was still in the back of my mind. But on a day to day basis it's much more like just being careful around everything. So just. Yeah, and that was just in, I guess since I was like 10, 12, it was just ingrained in me. So it was just there.
- [04:45]
A
Second nature.
- [04:45]
B
Yeah, second nature. So it wasn't something I like was in the front of my mind most of the time. Unless, you know, until I was like, maybe I was. When I was 15, everybody was getting driver's licenses, I couldn't. Or like when I was applying for university then it was like much more in the front.
- [04:58]
A
But other times, what ended up happening with that? How were you able to go to university?
- [05:02]
B
So luckily Texas at that time was one of the two states that allowed undocumented students to get in state tuition and financial aid. So I went to University of Texas in Austin with grants and pretty much free scholarships.
- [05:16]
A
Okay, that's good.
- [05:17]
B
Yeah.
- [05:17]
A
And so was that. Did that feel like at that time in your life you were no longer as stressed or as worried about things or what was your relationship to that
- [05:24]
B
whole undocumented piece after a university time?
- [05:28]
A
Yeah, when you're in university.
- [05:29]
B
Yeah, it was a weird time because at university within the first six months I met other undocumented people and then we did a lot of organizing around it. And so it went from like this at that. When I was 17, I didn't tell anybody I was undocumented, even my closest cousins. By like 19, I was like on news talking about me being undocumented because I was in a space of other people that were undocumented as well. And we created very, I think, safe space to come to terms with the Things that were hidden, things that we were ashamed of. And we had a very loving space that allowed us to be super empowered. So I went from, like, one extreme to the other where I felt very empowered in the identity of being undocumented. Yeah.
- [06:07]
A
Wow. Yeah, you turn it into something beautiful. Yeah, that's very cool. And so then would you say, because this is what I'm sort of pulling for, would you say that a lot of your childhood was less distressed because of the undocumented something in the back of your mind, something you need to be cautious about, mindful about. But maybe more of the stress in childhood was about your father's unpredictable behaviors. Okay. And if you just sort of score the level of uncertainty on both the level of uncertainty of dad's moods and behaviors versus the level of uncertainty chronically carrying that sense of being undocumented, what. What would you sort of score each
- [06:39]
B
one of them if being undocumented on a day to day basis? Like three to five. But there were extreme, like, extreme examples of when I had to come to Canada. It was like 12 out of 10. All the things around it with my dad. I mean, uncertainty. Yeah, maybe it was uncertainty. It was like there was a certain behavior that he wasn't like, hot and cold. He was mostly like, you know, there was a lot of, like, tough expectations, a lot of shaming around this, but it was, like, very constant. Right. There wasn't the up and down around.
- [07:10]
A
Okay. He was consistently kind of a stressful person to be around. More like that.
- [07:14]
B
Yeah. It was like we had very high expectations, and when they didn't meet it, there was a lot of, like, you know, talking, shaming. All of that would be happening. And yeah, that was broadly consistent. I guess the levels of it would change. But, like. And he was also stressed with his own immigration.
- [07:29]
A
Yeah. And you feel like you're taking that on. Yeah. Okay, so there's a lot there. And. And what would you say, like, from what you remember your common emotions were growing up?
- [07:39]
B
Common emotions were there was a lot of anger and sadness. Because I remember growing up and I remember, like. Like, initially I had a one bedroom apartment and we were living there. I was like, I was living in the living room. And I remember, like, there would be lots of moments where I was, like, listening to, like, a lot of, like, I think I rap at that time and feeling through, like, either the hurt or the anger, like with conflict with my parents or the anger of, like, the situation that I was in being undocumented and kind of related to a lot of like the, there was. And there was political anger in rap. So it was. Yeah, those anger hurt.
- [08:13]
A
Anger hurt. Okay. And not a, not a sense of uncertainty or freeze as strongly.
- [08:17]
B
No. Freeze, uncertainty, yes. The anger, I guess at the being in the place of uncertainty. I don't know if he.
- [08:24]
A
Anchor is usually an emotion that propels you into action as well. So it's sort of counter intuitive to think that you would be in freeze mode and feel a lot of anger.
- [08:33]
B
Yes. Yeah. Because I was very action oriented in terms of my dad because it was conflict. It wasn't like I was like free frozen. Like I would very much engage in the dynamic. Right.
- [08:44]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:45]
B
Versus I guess with the being undocumented. The only way there's nothing. I had no control over anything. So the only thing I could do which kind of like made me super obsessed was like follow the news to see what's going on with immigration. So like even when I was in junior high, as I was watching like a lot of like cnn, Fox News,
- [09:02]
A
everything just consumers get all the information. Yeah.
- [09:04]
B
That's where the pattern is now too. Right. Trying to get.
- [09:06]
A
I was gonna ask you that. Yeah, I'm trying to see all the little them. Good, good job. So, so your way of basically coping with the uncertainty was to collect as much information as possible.
- [09:16]
B
So the more I understood, it felt like more I had some sense of control, even though it wasn't true. But it's somewhat, you know, like when there was. The only control I had was the government would.
- [09:24]
A
Yeah, like kind of superficial. Yeah, exactly. Interesting. And so like a superficial sense of control. It's like based on, you know, what, what's happening. But you would have had a control probably in other forms if we looked. But um, so fast forward because I'm just trying to see what themes like are in your conditioning in terms of how you're going to show up and, and so fast forward into this time where you eventually feel burnt out and you feel like you sort of go into a bit of a freeze mode. When does that actually begin?
- [09:53]
B
Like when is like the first time it happened?
- [09:55]
A
Yeah, the first time. And then we'll, we'll come back to more recent.
- [09:59]
B
Some of the freezes I think were initially in the first couple of years at university. Um, it was I think a weird place for me because I, when I first moved to the US all the stuff I was learning in classes in the U.S. i had learned in Nepal. Like I was there started in 5th grade in the US everything I learned till 9th grade I already learned so it was just a breeze for me. So I didn't really have to do any work. The first, like, pretty much until high school hung out.
- [10:25]
A
Yeah.
- [10:25]
B
Yeah. And then when I went to university, I went to biomedical engineering, and it was like one of the best programs. And then it was like, completely, completely overwhelmed. It was like, I do not know how to, like, navigate this because it's like, I had to put in work and I didn't know how to. And then I think that slowly created.
- [10:40]
A
That was your first big freeze mode.
- [10:41]
B
Yeah, first big. Where I was like, oh, I don't, like, know how to navigate this. I was like, I didn't know how to cope with it. So, like, a lot of times where, like, I would procrastinate, I would not be able to, like. And I remember where I was like, I. Growing up, I read a lot of books and there would be times where I was, like, trying to read a biology book and I couldn't get past the first page.
- [10:57]
A
And I'm like, yeah, you'd, like, reread the sentence over and over again. Okay. So your nervous system starts going into and describe, like, if you could go back and look at that in slow motion, describe that experience. So things start building up. And what do you first start feeling? Is it overwhelm that comes first? Is it anxiety?
- [11:17]
B
I mean, the first thing that generally happens is distractions. Like, so I know the deadline of test is coming, like in a couple of weeks or two weeks. I'm just not even thinking about the death.
- [11:29]
A
Okay, good. But do you actually not think about it, or do you think about it, feel a negative feeling, and then distract to cope?
- [11:35]
B
Yeah, but I don't have internal voice. So it just happens so quickly that
- [11:37]
A
that is moving to distraction. But do you notice the emotion underneath, like, behind the distraction? So right in the moment before you
- [11:45]
B
go to distract, there's a discomfort of something. It's a discomfort of, like, not being able to, because I know I need to. But I'm already having experience where I'm like, oh, I'm not capable of doing it. Like, that's what the defective being incapable comes up.
- [12:03]
A
And good. So. So you have. The defective core wound comes up. This is perfect.
- [12:09]
B
Yeah.
- [12:10]
A
And then what emotion you feel a little bit of shame or anxiety or both?
- [12:18]
B
Shame. Yes, I think shame in a sense of like, I feel like, oh, like everybody else can do it. Why can't I? So there's a shame around it. What was the other one you said? Shame?
- [12:28]
A
Anxiety.
- [12:29]
B
Anxiety was a weird one where the anxiety Wouldn't come up to, like, much closer to the deadline. Right. Then the anxiety would come up and there was at some point later on where I'm like, the anxiety wasn't even there. So I like, missed that line. So.
- [12:42]
A
Yeah, yeah, you would just shut down and then that was your way of protecting yourself. Okay, so let's play it out in like, BTEA for a second. Okay, so. So your belief is the defective.
- [12:52]
B
Yeah. Not capable. Defective.
- [12:54]
A
Yeah. And. And like, I can't do what everybody else can, which is, you know, from a conscious perspective, your conscience, mind can probably say, oh, that's clearly a story, but you're fully believing it. Your body, your nervous system is reacting to that at the time. So you believe I can't do it and everybody else can. I must be defective. You feel, or you start thinking thoughts. You can jump over this one if you don't have much of an internal dialogue, though. But do you have thoughts that are like, oh, what if I can't make the deadline? What if I fall behind? Any thoughts that you remember?
- [13:21]
B
Thoughts? Yeah, most of the times I didn't. Like, I mean, nowadays maybe it would be thoughts of like. Yeah, like I'm like, oh, like, I need to finish this. I don't know why I can't. But it's like, I have to be super more present to get that. I just don't have that.
- [13:34]
A
Yeah, that's okay. That's okay. And then you feel shame, you said, was the emotion.
- [13:39]
B
Yeah, I think it would be shame if I had to think about it. It would feel. Yeah, because it would be like, oh, I'm not, I guess normal. Like everybody else is such an easy thing to do. Like, why can't I? So it feels shameful around it. Yeah.
- [13:52]
A
Okay. And so you're shaming yourself and then you act. So your a of BTA is to distract.
- [13:59]
B
Yeah, distract.
- [14:00]
A
And what are your favorite distractions?
- [14:03]
B
Yeah, one of my therapists had told me, she was like, oh, you had more better distraction than most people. It was like a lot of it was like news, politics. So that allow me to, like, learn about it. Like, I was like, super interested in it.
- [14:13]
A
You're meeting a need for certainty directly.
- [14:14]
B
It led to me to law school, which is great. But like, yeah, at that time it was coping through that. I guess at that time there weren't Instagram, TikTok, so we didn't have that distraction. So there's a lot of. It was just like, yeah. Consuming information, news or other things give
- [14:27]
A
you, like, a sense of control somewhat
- [14:29]
B
yeah, sense of control and it was interesting, but yeah, both. Yeah, coping.
- [14:33]
A
Okay, perfect. In this part of the episode, I'm going to take him through an actual exercise to rewire his core wounds. Now this exercise isn't something you do one time. Neuroscience tells us that it's a repetition and emotion across time, especially in a suggestible state that actually allows us to build new neural networks in our brain. But it starts with us really getting clear about the opposite of our core wound. So, for example, you'll see him say that he feels defective and like he can't do what other people can do. And we're gonna look at the opposite of that, how he actually can do what other people can do. But we can't just say that at a conscious level of mind because we just intellectualize. So we need to get really specific personal examples from him so he can feel and visualize about these things. And when we come up with 10 to 15 across the segment of this episode, he's then going to actually be able to take these exercises home. And with that, he wants to really focus on listening back to what he's coming up with in this episode here together, feeling about it, visualizing it, and that's allowing it to reach his subconscious level of mind. And then through doing that repeatedly across a 21 day segment. Well, in a suggestible state of mind, which I'll explain what it is in the episode in a moment will allow him to actually rewire these painful old stories that he's been carrying for a very long time. So let's go back to that first experience first, if you're open to it. So let's go to that first. Do you have a moment in time that you can remember where you felt that like, build up, like those first deadlines? Is there a deadline you missed, like a year of university that you were in?
- [16:01]
B
The. The one vivid one I remember was like I had an exam. I feel like it's biology. I don't, I'm not sure, but like I needed to read a, a chapter I need to finish and I just couldn't. And I don't know why I was like, okay, let me go use the, like sit in the restroom and try to read. And I just couldn't. It was just like just circling, circling, okay, in the same sentence, saying whatever, right? And I didn't have the. Now I'm gonna. I have diagnosed adhd, so I have medication that allows me to kind of at least move through. But yeah, at that time I just couldn't. And I Was like, I don't know why I can't. Mentally. Yeah. So I remember that vivid moment in, like, just like in the restroom being, like, trying to read. Yeah.
- [16:39]
A
Okay, so let's go back to the moment. So there you are, and you're sitting there and you're trying to read, and you can't even read. You're trying to do anything you can to sit down and read, and you are a defective person at that moment.
- [16:52]
B
Yeah.
- [16:53]
A
Can you 100 know that that's true
- [16:57]
B
now? No, at that time, you know, I felt like I was overwhelmed by it, but, yeah, definitely not. Right? Yeah.
- [17:02]
A
And what do you see now that you couldn't see then?
- [17:06]
B
I think learning to be, I guess, kind that. That there are different ways to learn. I. We didn't have. I didn't have the resources at that time. There's ways I could have, but I guess, yeah, I didn't have.
- [17:17]
A
No one was teaching you that. Who's teaching you everything else?
- [17:20]
B
Yeah. Good.
- [17:21]
A
And what does that feel like in your body to think about?
- [17:23]
B
Which one?
- [17:24]
A
The idea that, like, it wasn't you being defective, that you just weren't being given or supported. The different ways to learn.
- [17:31]
B
I think a lot of, like, kindness, sadness. Right. Like, grief of, like, what I deserved and I didn't have, but also level of kindness to myself. A mixture of both, I would say, and just sitting with.
- [17:45]
A
Yeah, that's really good.
- [17:46]
B
Yeah.
- [17:47]
A
And what else you notice that you can see now that you couldn't see then?
- [17:53]
B
Yeah. I mean, a lot of it is around, like, whenever I feel through it, it's just, like, to be kind to my younger selves. Just a lot of it is just, like, finding a level of, like, compassion and kindness to, I guess, counteract the shame or criticism. Right. And being able to, like, pause around it. Um, and I still have difficulty doing it, but, yeah, I think that's the
- [18:16]
A
biggest thing to notice. And what else was happening in your life at the time that other than you being a defective person outside of that story, what else was happening in your life at the time that could have caused you to have a harder time digesting information?
- [18:32]
B
It was a weird time where I had just, like, met other undocumented people or start organizing, and I was, like, fully in it to the point where I was, like, super, super engaged. Like, we had, like, meetings every other day. We were, like, at one point, we're in the capital. We were in D.C. like, I hadn't met, like, all the political leaders like Nancy Pelosi to, like. Like, it Was like. So it was very. I was like. I distracted myself with that.
- [18:56]
A
Okay, so wait, hold on. So you distracted yourself with that, but it sounds like you could focus on
- [19:01]
B
that up to a point. Yeah.
- [19:03]
A
Yeah. And what do you see about that? Like, do you see that there were moments where you would actually be able to focus on those things? And can you give me some examples?
- [19:10]
B
Yeah, it was always, like, no focus or hyper focus. Right. Like, even before it was, like, even news. I could, like, focus and read so much around the new stuff. Right. In a way, the hyper focus worked in that sense. Even with the organizing stuff. I think even if I have to think about it, it probably was like it was either coping or freely doing it. But as soon as it was not that. Because even with the organizing stuff, I was, like, excelling doing all of it. But then there were times where I was like, we had to do certain things, like, very specific things. Then I would still softly move back into the more freezing.
- [19:44]
A
Okay, interesting. So tell me about the things you could really focus on.
- [19:49]
B
I think it would be around, like, just news or. A lot of it is around, like, connection. Right. So a lot of organizing is around other people. So a lot of my. I guess what I was very good at was, I guess, kind of networking, getting to know everybody, creating safe space for everybody to navigate things. When I was organizing it in Texas and D.C. so.
- [20:08]
A
And what were you able to do? How old were you at the time? And you met, like, all these political figures and you're out there organizing and, like, what were some of the things that you achieved during that time?
- [20:18]
B
It was. It was a lot. It was like, at 19, we had. Yeah, we had organized a bunch of people from Austin to go to D.C. to. For, like, organized. When the vote was happening. We were at the Capitol when the vote actually took place. Like, lobbied all the senators and stuff. Yeah. And we were on hunger strike for, like, good. I was on hunger strike for a couple of weeks, which is.
- [20:38]
A
No way. That's crazy. And so then you were in the news, you said.
- [20:42]
B
Yeah.
- [20:43]
A
And you, like, were able to basically garner enough attention about an important cause that you were on the news at 19.
- [20:48]
B
Yeah, well, our group. Yeah.
- [20:49]
A
Yeah, your group.
- [20:50]
B
Yeah.
- [20:51]
A
That's amazing. And who started organizing that?
- [20:56]
B
It was one of the. She was, like, a. Like, around eight, nine years older than me. She was. I think her family was. She was undocumented, and she started the organization, and she was probably, like, one of the most important people, like, mentors in my life who, like, taught me, like, how to stop being ashamed of being undocumented and finding a level of love and kindness for myself. So she was the one that started and helped within, at least with in Austin.
- [21:21]
A
And did you feel like as soon as you came into that, you started to light up a little bit?
- [21:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, fully. You went from one end to the other where it felt like at one point I was like, oh, this is fully me. Like, right.
- [21:32]
A
So interesting. So when you think back to that time and those memories, like all the things you did actually do and that you were capable of doing, do you feel any emotions connected to that?
- [21:42]
B
Yeah, there's a lot of joy and connection, pride and being able to do a lot of those things and a sense of community with everybody else. So a mixture of all of those. Yeah.
- [21:57]
A
When you look back on some of those things, what skills do you feel like you had that. That when you were practicing these skills you were at your best?
- [22:05]
B
What skills that I have.
- [22:07]
A
You said organizing and networking came.
- [22:09]
B
Yeah. So a lot of it is around, I think people and I think I was always great with people and knowing how to navigate things, having communicate with different people from all ends of the stripes. Like I. I was, I think I felt very good at navigating things with people even all the way on the other side of the political spectrum that other people couldn't have a level of empathy that kind of disarmed them. So I had a lot of those.
- [22:32]
A
So I hear that you had empathy, open communication, almost like non judgment as well. Yeah, like the ability to not go in all guarded and.
- [22:40]
B
Yeah, I wasn't triggered. I don't know why. Like there were other people triggered, understandably. Right. Like there was like anti immigrant protesters. They were like felt the type of way where I could be like, oh, like they're coming from their own place of like hurt, fear, whatever it was. And that like kind of.
- [22:54]
A
That's great. At 19.
- [22:56]
B
I don't. Yeah, I don't know.
- [22:58]
A
Pretty good. Okay, so. So there's a certain degree of wisdom and emotional intelligence to be able to do that. I feel like most adults struggle with things like that nowadays in the world. And to hear that that's how you were able to do, to be with such a deep cause that was so personal to you at 19 years old. So there's a lot of wisdom there, a lot of emotional intelligence, a lot of empathy, a lot of good communication, a lot of being able to really organize and network with people and build bridges and like are those things that historically, from that time in your life, moving Forward. You have felt like when you're doing those types of things, you're not really in freeze mode.
- [23:35]
B
Yeah. I mean that. That feels the most naturally grounded me, I guess would be where it feels much more free flowing. Right. And not being able to be in the free state. Yeah.
- [23:48]
A
Okay. And if those were things that were absolutely a part of your work and what you do for work now, whatever that looked like, just in this theoretical world, do you feel like you would feel this need to shut down and go into freeze mode or do you think you would naturally feel a little more open and energized?
- [24:06]
B
You know, definitely feel much more open and energized. I think the only thing would be like around it depending on what the issue that I'm like organizing if I feel knowledgeable or not. But outside of that. Yeah, I think it would be. Yeah.
- [24:17]
A
So you want to feel like you have information so that you can. The knowledgeable piece is important to you.
- [24:22]
B
Because when I'm in. Currently I'm in law and I. There's different kinds of laws that we can like courts. You can go and one of his mediation where it's like a lot less legalese, more like human to human interaction. A lot of it like validating those felt more comfortable than the other aspects of it. Right.
- [24:37]
A
So yeah. Okay, so then let's take this information. Okay. And let's fast forward to burnout. Okay. Burnout, like most recent. So you go into. You finish law school, you start working and you have this, this other period of burnout that takes place.
- [24:54]
B
Yeah.
- [24:54]
A
And what are the things that were the daily sort of skills that you had to practice there that might have taken you away from this area where you're really at your best?
- [25:05]
B
I mean, and I would say like initially then I guess that I guess the more negative component part of it is like post Covid, a lot of it is remote. So like I'm not having it. Yeah. No. Human to human interaction particularly. My last work was a work I worked at before law school, so I knew everybody. So whenever there were a chance to meet people, it was great. Everybody's lovely. But like most of the times I'm just working from home, so. And I think it led to a place where the more shame I felt, the less I wanted to connect with people and work. So I'm like great with friends, making friends, anywhere but work.
- [25:38]
A
Okay, interesting. So you have this little storm that's happening where when you don't have these needs met to be around people, to get social interaction, to feel like you're organizing, building, communicating. When all of those things are not there, you then feel like you kind of go into a bit of a freeze mode. You don't feel good. And then you start telling the story that I'm defective. And then that caused you to feel more shame and retreat more, and it sort of becomes a vicious cycle that builds on itself. Does that resonate with you?
- [26:02]
B
Yeah, I think it's like, if I don't have that, then something has to happen in the other way where I feel defective and then like spirals into more and more. Okay, right.
- [26:10]
A
Have you done 21 days or even 63 days on the defective core wound?
- [26:14]
B
Defective? I mean, I have not. Not done. No. Not 21 days. No. I've tried. And.
- [26:19]
A
Okay, okay. This is a big deal. Okay. Because you have three big things happening so far. Okay. So. And I was trying to just dig everything up first. Number one is that you have really important needs. And you probably know this, but, like, when you have adhd, you need to be in alignment with your needs. Like, I got diagnosed with ADHD as a, as a teenager and was prescribed 80 milligrams of Vivaca. They thought I had some serious ADHD and don't take it. I haven't taken anything like that in years. But like, I just know about myself that I have to be really good at delegating things I don't want to do and really stay in the things I do want to do, and then I thrive. And that's the hyper focus part. Right. Is that when you're doing things you're really in alignment with and your needs are met, you can hyperfocus and you can be super present. And then you need to be really good at delegating otherwise. Right. So the first thing before anything else, just from like you and I chatting a little bit earlier too, is, is you started, you went into law and you like, all your needs are not met. So then it's very hard to focus. Then that kicks up the defective core wound, which then cause you to go into the shame spiral and then that puts your nervous system then into freeze mode. Those two things together.
- [27:22]
B
Yeah.
- [27:23]
A
So it then becomes like you sort of have this three pronged approach to, to solve for it. Number one, and I actually want to spend. We'll go through each one systematically. We'll start by talking about the big things that are like, where can you find ways to get your needs met in your career field? And we'll just brainstorm it. You don't have like a answer that you walk away with here today. You might want to take your time and research, but like where can you get these needs met? Which I'll reread to you in a moment in your career now with the skillset and knowledge that you do have. The second thing is we want to come up with some evidence of the opposite of defective for you in your life so you can go home and do the rewiring work for 21 days and then I'll give you some tools for how to regulate your nervous system if you get into freeze mode and I'll explain them through to you.
- [28:02]
B
Yeah.
- [28:03]
A
Does that work?
- [28:03]
B
Yeah.
- [28:04]
A
Okay. Okay, so first, first question. Organizing, networking, communication, empathy, non judgment, wisdom, knowledge.
- [28:12]
B
Okay.
- [28:12]
A
These are your skill sets. Clearly where you thrive, where you light up, where you feel at your best.
- [28:16]
B
Yeah.
- [28:17]
A
Are there any pivots that come to mind in your career in the future that incorporate. Incorporate all of those things?
- [28:22]
B
Yeah, because I'm in the freeze mode a lot of times I'm not even. I think part of me what feel like is I. I'm not having the capacity to look all the opportunities that I would have because I feel like there are times when I do, I guess parts work when I can be in a place of where like oh have like abundance. I would be like there and it feels so free to be like, oh, I can do anything. Right. But it's like very hard to get in that space. So I haven't been able to kind of like see what's possible. I know it is true. Right. Even in small places I can like in law, like where I was like, oh, mediation feels better, right?
- [28:57]
A
Yeah.
- [28:57]
B
But yeah, in a bigger picture there is even a block from even getting to that place of. And part of it, I think it's not those needs but need for significance kind of getting met by law that I need to kind of like unwind. I think maybe I'm not sure.
- [29:13]
A
Yeah. And so is there anything like what would mediation feel like to you? Like mediation incorporates a lot of these things was the first. And we'll just suggest possibilities like you don't have to come away with like one thing but like mediation, you definitely communicate and have to have empathy and non judgment and see both sides and have the wisdom to be able to do so. And the knowledge about law you already have, like all those things you said seem very much a part of mediation.
- [29:38]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I think the only thing that is lacking is the. I mean I have the knowledge, but it feels a little bit more lacking because I was already in freeze mode While I was learning things. So that's a little bit the thing where I'm like, oh, it. I still want to feel a bit more comfortable, but outside of that, it does feel like a potential good option. Yeah. At least the most comfortable in labor law or law in general.
- [30:03]
A
Interesting. Okay, so. So and if you looked at that, what would be the necessary steps? And we're just brainstorming, so don't worry. There's no, like, right or wrong answer. But what would be the steps to be able to. To get there?
- [30:17]
B
Like practical steps or the steps I need to.
- [30:20]
A
Yeah, practical steps to. To move into something like mediation.
- [30:24]
B
I think part of it is just that even though it's not a lot of legal lease, just having the broad comfortability around navigating the legal lease because it doesn't come up in. In like in the court where it's very technical.
- [30:36]
A
Yeah.
- [30:36]
B
But just being in that space where I feel comfortable, because I think I can do all of the organizing, come all of that connecting with people if I'm already comfortable in the baseline.
- [30:44]
A
Okay, good. So the baseline, having that baseline of comfort. Okay. So it's actually a need that you have in here that is for comfort. And what would be some steps to rebuild that or to build that?
- [30:54]
B
Yeah, I think now, because I have a bit of time, I think I would do like, I think kind of like take steps to be like, okay, what are the things I need to kind of like brush up on and learn? And that would make me feel more comfortable to, I guess, lean into. Yeah. The things that align with my needs. So. Yeah.
- [31:13]
A
And so what would. Would it be something you do for three hours a week? Would you reread things? Like what would be some things that you could do to brush up?
- [31:19]
B
Yeah, I think probably just going back and reviewing parts of like. Yeah. Procedure and labor law that I'm. I'm pretty sure I have notes of from back in the days. And just having that, you know, a couple hours a day might be good.
- [31:34]
A
And in theory, how long would it take you to feel like you have some momentum where you feel good, like you sit down, you read for a couple of hours a day.
- [31:43]
B
Did not have time, maybe a couple of months where I feel brought comfortable. But like. Yeah, the basic would be like at least a month, but like more.
- [31:51]
A
And it's good because you have a little bit of time. So. So that's nice.
- [31:53]
B
Yeah.
- [31:54]
A
And if you were to do that because you have a big social need, it sounds like. Yeah, you probably don't want to do that sitting in your home alone?
- [32:02]
B
No, probably not.
- [32:04]
A
Is there anywhere where you can get that you do something like that around people, study in a group? Do you have friends meant anybody who mentors people that you can sit with, a certification that you can do in a group? Anything where you can brush up on those things where you have some of your other needs anchored in at the same time.
- [32:21]
B
I mean, I guess there might be certifications, courses I can look into. I mean I am. Because this issue has been gone a while. I've not done as good a job networking with people and loss of less of it. But in spaces even like just in a day to day. I know, like even when I was working, I would rather go to a coffee shop and work rather than home. Right. So a lot of those spaces where there are more people, sometimes I use. There's a website called FocusMate where you can body double with somebody. That's helpful as well.
- [32:49]
A
Oh, I love that. Okay, that's really cool. That's a good thing for extroverts.
- [32:54]
B
Yeah. Yes, yes. That's why I love having that and I love having the accountability of narcissists. There's at least you know, it's not doing it alone. Right.
- [33:00]
A
I love that. Okay, what's that called? Focus Mates.
- [33:02]
B
Yeah, Focus Mate. That's so cool. It's like you can book a 20, 30 minute session and. And they'll just link you up with a random.
- [33:08]
A
It's actually such a good idea for your business. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so I love that. So, so as a worst case scenario, if you did that as a worst case scenario, nothing else. If you went into mediation, took a couple months, brushed up your skills, worked from a coffee shop, reviewing for two hours a day, do you feel like that would be something that at least gives you a little bit of certainty and something that you could move towards in the future and feel okay about?
- [33:31]
B
Yeah, no, I mean, yeah, I guess I hadn't fully thought about it. By going through it step by step for iu, I was like, oh, that seems not that difficult relative to other ones.
- [33:40]
A
It's because you can't do it when you're in freeze mode. It's hard to like play everything out when you're in freeze mode. That's why I wanted to just start. There is like a possibility.
- [33:46]
B
Yeah, no, definitely. I think that like, yeah, even that when I'm thinking about it within law, I'm like, okay, that seems like the very simplest way to like one of the op. Have one option available right yeah.
- [33:57]
A
And so I'm curious outside of law, if you could just for a moment. So that's just a backup plan. Okay. That's just something to like sink your teeth into later on. Take a think about it because you want to work through this decision over a period of weeks. Not just like in a moment, but it feels like a good potential option. Is there anything outside of law that really piques your interest where you're thinking like these would meet all these needs? Anything political? Like, it really interests me that you
- [34:19]
B
have such a. Yeah, I was involved in political. I don't know if I'm. I guess I had a phase of political. Now I'm like in the phase of like the last couple of years has been all mental health everywhere. Like not just PDFs but a bunch of different spaces where I've consumed a lot. So that part, interesting political is somewhat interesting. But I'm already, I guess kind of done it and it hasn't. I think part of it was like the immigration organizing was such a big, big and very like identity based thing that everything else felt a lot less.
- [34:52]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [34:53]
B
Yeah.
- [34:54]
A
Okay. So. And I just want to put this out here and it's again, these are things to like think about and spend time thinking of. But I wonder if there's anything because often when you have a lot of passions or interests or needs.
- [35:03]
B
Yeah.
- [35:04]
A
That overlap and sort of have like a little sweet spot where they all interconnect. It's often a place where we kind of light up again.
- [35:09]
B
Yeah.
- [35:09]
A
And I wonder if there's something with like a little bit of politics, something to do with like the legal system in a way and then mental health and if there's something that you could advocate for or try to create change around in the legal system around mental health, where you have sort of a political stance on something that would be beneficial.
- [35:27]
B
Yes. I would want to I think sit with it. But that, I think that's. That, that I think that like connection would be something that would be very interesting. Like I don't have any idea of it but like I think I'm broadly in mostly progressive spaces and I think in mental health there is understandably like very non political lens. So everybody feels comfortable. Right. But there are spaces that can advocate for certain things. So. Yeah.
- [35:54]
A
Okay, so try this one on for just a second. So maybe as a plan B. Just to know that you have a little bit of certainty as possibilities. You or plan A, whatever you want to. You spend two hours a day.
- [36:05]
B
Yeah.
- [36:05]
A
And you go to a Coffee shop. Or you go into Focus Mate and you brush up on everything to do in the legal system with everything related to mediation.
- [36:13]
B
Yeah.
- [36:13]
A
And then you spend one hour a day after at the coffee shop. So you're there for a total of three hours a day, and your next hour is just researching places like that that you could make a difference.
- [36:23]
B
Yeah, yeah. No, I think that makes sense.
- [36:25]
A
And it gives you a little bit of room, a little bit of bandwidth to explore possibilities and opportunities for yourself. You have something to sort of anchor your focus and attention towards. And one of your superpowers as a person, in my opinion, it's a superpower, is that you want to always stay away from things you don't like.
- [36:45]
B
That's a great thought. Yeah.
- [36:47]
A
It's the truth.
- [36:48]
B
Yeah.
- [36:48]
A
It's the cold, hard truth. If you have adhd, you'll thrive at things you really like and you'll struggle a lot with things you don't like.
- [36:56]
B
Yeah, no, I mean, that is very true. I don't. I mean, I guess mom would watch. Why am I. Why am I guess, like, still leaning into all the things that I don't like?
- [37:05]
A
I don't know.
- [37:06]
B
Yeah. Part of it is, I guess, like this sense of social norms, of structure, hierarchy, and again, the prestige stuff with law school. But. Yeah, no, I agree. That makes sense.
- [37:15]
A
And there's ways to get that in those two areas, like going into a mediation space and going into this that are highly impactful have, like, a huge potential for a lot of impact and prestige. And those other things that you said were important needs. Yeah. Without also being in a space where you're not going to like things, because when you don't like things, then you dissociate. And that's going to be part of the freeze mode that you feel.
- [37:34]
B
Yeah.
- [37:34]
A
But then just regulates your nervous system over time.
- [37:36]
B
No, that makes sense. Yeah. And he's just going through that thought process. I think a lot of times when I'm freezing, I'm not even going through that thought process or yet. Simple one, which is great. But. Yeah.
- [37:44]
A
Okay, so good place to start. Okay, so here's our second two pieces.
- [37:46]
B
Yeah.
- [37:47]
A
So first is that you just need to have some kind of, like, these are my options. And then some sort of structure to explore. The second piece is that there's a big defective core wound. So we're gonna come up with your counteracting evidence.
- [37:56]
B
Yeah.
- [37:57]
A
Okay. So that you can take it home and do a little bit of rewiring. And I really want to highlight that, you know, if you're open to doing it, listening back for 21 days, really feeling about it. All the evidence we come up with is going to be extremely important because you kind of have this three pronged thing. First prong is that you try to do things outside of your needs, which then of course you're going to start dissociating, especially if you have adhd, you're going to start tuning out and shutting down. Then you start shutting down. Then you judge yourself for shutting down and not keeping up. Or I can't do everything that everybody else can is this story. Then all of a sudden it's like, hold on a second here. Now you feel shame. Shame then really dysregulates your nervous system. And then your way of coping, your A on your BTEA for coping is. Now I go into shutdown mode.
- [38:37]
B
Yeah. And I think I know what's kind of somewhat happening because I'm like, I've tried to do this multiple times and I think I haven't been able to finish because there is a thing of like, I need to do this. And it's like around the emotion of defectiveness. So there's like kind of. Because it's not that difficult of a thing to do. 21 days. And I've known about it for a couple of years, four or five years, and I've never done it every time I thought about it. So I think there's some blockage around it, but. Yeah. No.
- [39:01]
A
Okay, good. So, and, and what. What do you think the blockage is then?
- [39:06]
B
I guess it's. It's like, I need to do it.
- [39:09]
A
It's like a pressure kind of thing.
- [39:11]
B
Yeah. And just the second part is like, even though I'm like counteracting the defective, the thought of the defective is already there.
- [39:19]
A
Already makes you want to avoid.
- [39:20]
B
Yeah, I think that's probably what it is.
- [39:22]
A
Okay.
- [39:22]
B
If I have to sense it.
- [39:23]
A
So we'll just pivot here for one second. So. So we'll give you. Give you two things. Okay. The first is if you feel stuck because you're avoiding a core wound, you can kind of look at it in two different directions. But one is what are the. We can look at cost benefit, like cost of not doing it. Benefits of doing it. Then you sort of reshape your perception around it. Then you're more open to doing it. That's an easy one to do. What are you afraid will happen if you do do it? Like, what's the fear?
- [39:51]
B
Yeah. I don't know. Because I've been asked that Question about a bunch of things. And I don't know how to. It's like the fear is usually. It's like, I can't do it. Like if.
- [40:02]
A
Oh. Because there's a belief that I can't even do it.
- [40:04]
B
Or like. Yeah. Or somewhat. Where I'm like, not.
- [40:07]
A
Or is it a feeling of being trapped? Like, oh, what if I.
- [40:09]
B
Example of the other one where you're like, oh, if I do it, what happens? Like, what is an exam? Because I was like, I was. When I get asked that, I'm always
- [40:15]
A
like, yeah, I'll give you a few examples. So when I was doing a lot of rewiring as a fearful avoidant on the I will be betrayed core wound, I had some resistance to it. Kind of like what you're saying. And I realized that it was because I was thinking, yeah, but then if I trust people, then I'm going to be fooled. And it was like the I am stupid core wound.
- [40:33]
B
Oh. Oh. I think it's. So if I do it, then I'm like, there is an expectation to do it. So there's like a. Like a thing of like, I need to keep doing it. There's like a heavy. Yeah. Trap. Like the heaviness trap.
- [40:46]
A
Okay. So that's actually gonna be more important than doing cost benefit. Okay. So. So, well, put them together in. In one here. So you've attracted. When blocking you from doing the defects.
- [40:54]
B
Yeah, definitely trapped.
- [40:55]
A
And never did rewiring on trapped before.
- [40:58]
B
No.
- [40:58]
A
Okay.
- [40:59]
B
Yeah.
- [40:59]
A
No.
- [40:59]
B
Yeah.
- [41:00]
A
And this is hard stuff to. To stick in. Yeah. Like to have the. Like this whole chain of events where you're doing things outside of your needs. Then it's triggering the core wound of defective. Then you're stuck on even trying to rewire it. And then your nervous system goes into shutdown.
- [41:14]
B
Yeah.
- [41:14]
A
Like a painful way to navigate life, honestly.
- [41:17]
B
Yeah. Defective and trapped yet that makes sense.
- [41:18]
A
Yeah. Those are hard ones. Yeah.
- [41:19]
B
Yeah.
- [41:20]
A
They're not fun. Okay. So what are the costs of not working through these things?
- [41:27]
B
Yeah. And struggling everywhere with. Work with other parts of my life
- [41:32]
A
and try to feel into it for a second. What does that actually feel like in your body to carry that all the time? The struggle, the.
- [41:41]
B
Yeah. The sadness, heaviness feeling of. Yeah. Shame that I'm not accomplishing what I quote, unquote, should be. There is. Yeah. I think a lot of those emotions
- [41:59]
A
around it and a lot of like your going through life trying to push a boulder up a hill all the time.
- [42:05]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And even in this moment, I can. This Is the first time in this interview sense of freeze coming? I don't know why, but yeah, it's somewhat there. Yeah. Because that's a soft association right there.
- [42:14]
A
Yeah. And like you're doing such a great job and, and there's that feeling of having to say you're carrying all the time in the background. Right. And it's like that's going to make things so much more difficult all the time. So much more frustrating and life is just going to feel a lot harder than it needs to be.
- [42:27]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [42:29]
A
And. And what does that cost you to your career?
- [42:33]
B
Yeah, no, I've been like, not. I've had to take time off. I've struggled at work at different times and not just having a. I guess I have a job but like not a career long term. Right. So I don't. Because I don't. Yeah.
- [42:46]
A
And the sort of sense of needing to kind of. I feel like you might have this trepidation like, oh no, I have to go commit to something in a job. But what if I get burned out again? Like almost a fear of, of that coming back to. Is that on your radar?
- [42:58]
B
Could you repeat that? Like if.
- [43:00]
A
Yeah. This fear all the time, like even if you do, you know, go to invest or commit into a career, this feeling like, oh no, what if I burn out again?
- [43:08]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Part of it is like, what if I like invest all of this and
- [43:11]
A
then weighing on it in the back. Yeah, yeah.
- [43:14]
B
In a weird way it's a self fulfilling cycle. All of that creates uncertainty.
- [43:17]
A
Uncertainty again. There you are replaying the uncertainty from childhood.
- [43:22]
B
Yeah.
- [43:23]
A
And what does it cost you to your sense of peace? Your self esteem. Your peace.
- [43:27]
B
Yeah. Self esteem, definitely. I think there is. Even though it's not like I don't want career to be a major part of it, it's still a part of it in society where I like, you know, so struggling I think does affect that. And peace is just more so of like this financial stability. All the other stability is around it. Right. Where. Yeah. If I had like a, like a stable career, I think that that would not be as much of a issue.
- [43:53]
A
And how would it serve you to no longer have that? To no longer have the trapped wound, the defective.
- [43:59]
B
Oh, if I didn't have those.
- [44:01]
A
Yeah. Like what would life look like? Who, who would you be without all of that buzzing in the background?
- [44:06]
B
Yeah, it would be very, I mean I, I don't know. There's the ifs parts work where. And there's like the, the sense of self within the Part. That's what it feels like where it's like, very. Like there are times where I can be that if I sit with it. And it's like this very freeing, unlimited possibilities, unlimited authenticity. Just being able to be myself. Yeah.
- [44:27]
A
The openness.
- [44:28]
B
Yeah, the openness of it. Right.
- [44:30]
A
That sense of, like, authenticity, Truth.
- [44:32]
B
Yeah.
- [44:33]
A
And getting to live, like, a resistance. Free life. Yeah. Like you're always, like, under the heaviness.
- [44:38]
B
Yes. Ease, calm and lightness. Lightness. Yeah.
- [44:42]
A
And so do you see how doing the work on defective actually could bring you a lot more freedom because you're uprooting. What's the root of the problem here?
- [44:50]
B
Yeah, yeah. If I feel entrapped.
- [44:53]
A
Yeah, yeah. And. And how without those wounds, like, what else would life look like without those wounds? What other benefits would there be to your relationships, to your career, to your sense of self, to your stability on a daily basis? What else. What else comes up for you?
- [45:09]
B
I mean, all of it just feels like things would just be lighter. That makes. Makes things where, like, oh, I can. Because right now I'm like, oh, with work, I can't have balance in all parts of my life. But I'm like, if I'm. That's part of it is like, it's not like I don't have time. It's more. I don't have the capacity. And if I have the capacity, I can, like, be able to manage all of it.
- [45:26]
A
Right.
- [45:26]
B
In a very. Yeah.
- [45:29]
A
Because the core wound pushes you into freeze mode again.
- [45:32]
B
Yeah.
- [45:32]
A
So you think that by avoiding doing the rewiring on defective, you avoid being trapped. Yeah, but it's the opposite. Yeah, it's that by avoiding doing the. The work on defectiveness, I stay trapped. My nervous system keeps going back into this old state of functional freeze mode again. And then I keep repeating the cycle of heaviness in my life. Do you see?
- [45:50]
B
Yeah.
- [45:51]
A
Okay, so let's look for some evidence here of how you can do things. I'm going to phrase it that way. You know, you can do the opposite of defective as being acceptable, normal. But, like, I actually want to look more at. I can. Because that's your story. That's the way you keep framing it in your own language. You keep saying, I can't do things other people can do.
- [46:09]
B
Yeah.
- [46:10]
A
Okay, so I can do things other people can do.
- [46:13]
B
What.
- [46:13]
A
What comes up for you? We want to look for 10 to 15 pieces of evidence here.
- [46:18]
B
Is it. I'm just trying to think of, like, small things, big things.
- [46:22]
A
I'll kick it off for you. I'LL kick it off. So one of the first things is you were able to go through law school.
- [46:27]
B
Yeah.
- [46:28]
A
Okay, so tell me a little bit about that, what you had to endure to get through law school.
- [46:31]
B
Yeah, I guess the first one was this being. Doing. Having to do LSATs, like the law exam and study for it, which is not easy. Yeah. And I think I have a story around it which I think is like causing it a little bit, where I'm like, that's the first time I got ADHD medications. And as soon as I got the medication, I was able to do it. And in my mind it's like the medication rather than me.
- [46:50]
A
Okay. But there was you that sought out support, that was able to go through that entire process.
- [46:55]
B
Yeah, Yeah, I guess I'm capable of. Of. Yeah. Leaning into what is needed to be done to get to that place.
- [47:01]
A
Yes.
- [47:01]
B
Yeah.
- [47:02]
A
Yeah. And what does that feel like in your body when you focus on that?
- [47:07]
B
Yeah, I guess lighter, more action oriented, that I am able to do things that will lead to a better space.
- [47:16]
A
What percent of people pass the lstat?
- [47:19]
B
There's no passing, but there's like, what percentile you're at.
- [47:22]
A
Okay. And how often do people. I don't. People, like, not do it or not go through it?
- [47:26]
B
Isn't there like a. I don't know the stats, but. Yeah, but I mean, I, like, I feel lucky I did good on it. So it's. Yeah. So I guess I can focus on, I guess how well I did. I don't know.
- [47:37]
A
Yes. Because you have two options always. One is to go back through, like, all the things that went wrong and all the things, oh, I had to take ADHD medication. Even though you had adhd?
- [47:46]
B
Yeah.
- [47:47]
A
And you can focus on that and that just keeps you in that cycle of being trapped. Or you can shift your perception about yourself, what you feel and believe internally, rewire that. And now you go into life seeing possibility instead of all the things that. And see how one decreases your bandwidth dramatically and the other opens you up. Right. So what else is in there? So got through law school. Were you able to focus in law school enough to remember?
- [48:10]
B
Somewhat. I think depends on the class. Yeah. So I think I was able to think of in terms of.
- [48:16]
A
I've known a lot of people who've dropped out at law school. School.
- [48:19]
B
Yeah.
- [48:19]
A
In their first year. It seems to be like where everybody leaves.
- [48:22]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So I was able to, I guess, persevere through it, that struggle. But I was able to, I guess.
- [48:29]
A
Can we go back to what you just said, you said persevere. Can you change it to persevere and tell me the hard things you had to endure and persevere?
- [48:36]
B
Yeah, I think a lot of it is. Yeah, I guess it was a lot of. A lot of overwhelming amount of, like, classes, readings, a lot of it. And trying to navigate all of that and trying to understand it.
- [48:48]
A
And tell me more specifically, like, were you up till one in the morning? Did you have to read how many pages a week were you reading?
- [48:54]
B
Yeah, yeah. So it would like. Yeah, it would be like hundreds of pages. A lot of times. What I. I think I was helpful just try to get the summer summarizing all the cases, then reading those. I think it made it easier. And I could understand things way more when it's that way. So I did a lot of that. That was helpful too, I think, get through. So I guess what I was capable is doing that, finding ways that I guess work for me at times.
- [49:21]
A
Excellent. Innovating, thinking outside of the box, taking yourself into consideration.
- [49:25]
B
Yeah.
- [49:26]
A
Having the wisdom to actually kind of create a system for yourself that's workable.
- [49:29]
B
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I guess that's what I did for the LSATs too. I was like, okay, I'm struggling. Maybe it's ADHD. So, yes. This problem solving maybe.
- [49:37]
A
Excellent. These are really, really good.
- [49:38]
B
Yeah. So problem solving would be probably. Yeah, some of them were. Yeah. I am able to. That. That. That does feel more tuned where I'm like, oh, I always do, like, problem solving in other spaces too. So.
- [49:49]
A
Okay. And good at that.
- [49:50]
B
Yeah.
- [49:50]
A
Excellent.
- [49:51]
B
Yeah.
- [49:51]
A
Even when you had to go into things with your hands a little bit tied. Right. Like, you're not in an easy situation and there you are still showing up, finding a way, building a workable system for yourself that makes it happen.
- [50:00]
B
Yeah.
- [50:01]
A
Okay. Beautiful. What else do you have in ways that you can do things that you've proven to yourself you can do things.
- [50:06]
B
I mean, I guess in the other sense. We already talked about being able to connect with people. Being able to. Yeah. Just have a creative, I guess, safe space for people to communicate. I'm great at, like, I guess, building
- [50:20]
A
friendships and I want to avoid, like, listing them off because then you're just getting to your conscious mind. And I want to. And of course, this will be part of the rewiring and we're noting it down and you'll be able to take it home and listen. But I want you to really think about, like, an example of how you've connected with people.
- [50:36]
B
I basic thing I come up with there is where they're like when I was sexist here I'm generally good at like I have groups of friends. I usually connect them so they, they have more friends. Some spaces where more community is built. So yeah just being able to connect more people. That's not me.
- [50:56]
A
And do you find that people take too easily, they open up to you, they feel comfortable around you pretty easily?
- [51:02]
B
Yeah, most of the times. Yeah. So yeah.
- [51:04]
A
Yeah. And. And do you find that you have a bit of a talent at like making people feel comfortable and heard and you're able to really consider other people. Like what makes you really good at connecting with people so easily?
- [51:16]
B
That I think yeah broadly show easygoing. I try to have that the, the being in their perspective. So like I don't really take things too personally where things feel at they're comfortable being themselves. I love like that they don't, I don't get triggered by anything. So it allows them to be who they want to be.
- [51:39]
A
Very accepting of people. Open minded.
- [51:40]
B
Yeah. So that's part of it. And just I like to be joyful. So joyful is always helpful, right? Yeah, it's like I'm always broadly happy to be around.
- [51:51]
A
So that's really nice though. So really talented at connecting with people which is really important not just for personal life but also is very good for a career as well.
- [52:00]
B
Yeah.
- [52:01]
A
And what else can you do that other people can do?
- [52:05]
B
Just I guess day to day, just living, surviving. I mean you want me to get more specific?
- [52:11]
A
Nice try. Yeah, yeah. I don't know what about communicating and organizing and networking? Like how does that show up for you?
- [52:21]
B
Yeah, I guess being able to. Yeah. I don't know why like as soon as I think there is a much more blanking and I'm like I know I can do a lot more things but I'm like kind of blanking on.
- [52:31]
A
This is like the more deep the belief is, the more people tend to blink on stuff. It's very normal. Yeah, yeah. Don't worry.
- [52:37]
B
Yeah.
- [52:38]
A
But if you look at communication, right. Your ability to communicate with people maybe who have different perspectives that that came up as a theme in university.
- [52:45]
B
Yeah.
- [52:45]
A
Is that still a theme for you now?
- [52:46]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean I was, I'm able to do that in law or any like even like clients and where I think where people are frustrated it's better at like you know, calming them because.
- [52:58]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:59]
B
So there's.
- [53:00]
A
These are like very important skills for life as well.
- [53:02]
B
Yeah.
- [53:03]
A
Okay. I love that. And what else can you do that other people can do in terms of learning and gathering knowledge.
- [53:10]
B
Yeah, I guess I. The hyper focus thing is definitely when I. Yes. I think that the one I probably excel at the most is when I'm hyper focused on anything, I usually am at a place where within a certain amount of time, I'm usually at like the top, whatever, 2, 3% of people in that space to learn. Right. Like in political. When I was 19, like I knew all the senators, all the representatives, where most people even who worked in D.C. don't even in mental health. Like, I was able to like, just fully lean into, like learning about all the different modes of theory, trauma. All of it was just like fully. So that that's probably when I'm best at that I'm able to do where it's just like when I'm in that mode, I can just understand things in a very broad and nuanced way and deep way.
- [53:54]
A
Yeah. And I noticed that about you. And I noticed that anytime you ever ask a question PDFs, I'm like, Whoa. You go deep. Like, you really, really get it. And you've obviously ingested the material in a really deep way. So. And like, these are probably beyond what most people would come up with in a very short period of time. So there's lots there for you.
- [54:12]
B
Yeah.
- [54:13]
A
And when you look, how much do you think that just like zooming out for a second. You spend time focusing on these things and noticing these things about yourself versus thinking. Feeling the opposite.
- [54:27]
B
Yeah. Clearly not much because I even hear it took time. Right. And the other one, Even the other one, I'm not noticing it's hidden underground, but it's always there, obviously, like feeling it.
- [54:38]
A
And notice that if you were to focus on these things and feed them to your subconscious mind through repetition, emotion, rebuild this belief in yourself.
- [54:46]
B
Yeah.
- [54:47]
A
Notice that that would absolutely change that shutdown response. When you feel like you're falling behind and be like, oh, I'm falling behind because I'm a human being, I'm going to fall behind sometimes. I'm gonna be ahead sometimes. But I am capable of changing. I'm capable of doing life. I'm capable of creating things. And if you felt that sense of emotion and belief in yourself, notice that your nervous system wouldn't go into freezing light as often.
- [55:07]
B
Yeah. Even within it, like, I can feel a little lighter when talking about some of it.
- [55:12]
A
Right, Exactly. And so then it becomes. Now we're gonna record it for you so you can listen back and feel about it for 21 days. And actually build those new beliefs at a deeper level. Okay. So there's still a couple things I just wanna say. One other thing that I noticed coming up with you. You said when I'm in that mode of hyper learning, I want to change that perception.
- [55:34]
B
Yeah.
- [55:34]
A
I want to see if this, this resonates with you. Instead of being in the mode of hyper learning, is it possible that it's actually when I'm doing things I like. Like when you.
- [55:45]
B
Oh yeah, yeah.
- [55:46]
A
Is there ever a time because, because I think when you say oh, when I'm in that mode of hyper focus, I think you make it an outside thing, like an at random thing and you get a lot more agency back into your life. When you're like, no, no, no. When I'm doing things I'm aligned with, then you're always in that mode of hyper focus.
- [56:03]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense because I guess initially when the news politics thing, like my therapist was like, like a way I coped, I guess kind of framed it as that rather than me actively doing a lot of it. Right.
- [56:14]
A
And, and do you ever. Have you sort of randomized it this whole time like, oh, when I'm in this hyper focus mode instead of seeing that you can.
- [56:23]
B
Yeah. Not randomize it, but like gave up agency.
- [56:25]
A
Yeah.
- [56:26]
B
Right. Because I think part of it, the framing is like, oh, I am coping from something. That's why it's like less agency that I'm doing it.
- [56:33]
A
Yeah.
- [56:33]
B
Makes sense.
- [56:34]
A
Instead of being like, oh, I have to actually intentionally keep going back to this idea that hyper focus is. And I want to see if there's an exception to it. Do you have much of an exception to that? You can tap into hyperfocus when you're doing things you like.
- [56:46]
B
Huh? Versus if I'm coping. Yeah, it's, it's like a harder line because I'm like a lot of times when I am coping, I do like it. Right? Yeah. So I'm like, I don't. Yeah. You know, like even when I'm learning about mental health, like it's a journey of like some. Initially it was like coping with the end of the relationship, but then it was like, oh, just genuine curiosity and learning. So it slowly shifts within it where I'm doing it on my own because it's, I'm interested in it.
- [57:12]
A
Yes, so you are. But I'm, I think my, I think I didn't frame my question properly. What? When you are doing something you like, learning about something you like, trying to grow at something you like, are you Pretty easily able to hyper focus if you enjoy it.
- [57:28]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [57:30]
A
And so rather than it being this like, oh, I focus or don't focus, I want you to keep coming back to that idea of, like. No, no, I focus when I like. Things. Things.
- [57:38]
B
Yeah.
- [57:38]
A
And so I have a duty to myself for the entire rest of my life.
- [57:43]
B
Yeah. Huh. Yeah.
- [57:44]
A
To do things that I like to do.
- [57:46]
B
Yeah. Definitely want that noted in the after, because I think that is super important. Because I'm like, not. Yeah. Because a lot of times I'm framing. I'm giving away my agency, and that's happening for a lot of reasons. But.
- [57:56]
A
Yes, yes.
- [57:57]
B
No, that. That makes sense.
- [57:58]
A
And that's going to be like a very important life reframe that you practice all the time.
- [58:03]
B
Yeah.
- [58:03]
A
I've learned this the hard way.
- [58:04]
B
And it's coming from some place. I know, but like.
- [58:06]
A
Yes, but it's this idea that, like. Okay. It's not that your ability to focus is random. It's that you have. And. And I actually think it's a gift.
- [58:14]
B
Yeah.
- [58:14]
A
That you. For the rest of your life, you're gonna have to choose to do things that make you happy. And you have a duty to yourself to do that because you'll thrive and succeed and feel good.
- [58:21]
B
Yeah.
- [58:22]
A
And you have a duty to very quickly prune things out that are not working for you and get good at delegating those things.
- [58:28]
B
Yeah. Duty. That's a good framing. And. Yeah, it's a duty for, I guess, being with myself and. Yeah.
- [58:35]
A
And it's a practice. And the more you practice it, the easier life will get. Yeah. Okay, so now we have a third thing. So our last. So just to summarize so far. Okay, so we've done the defective. We did a couple. We threw in a cost benefit exercise there too. But we started by just looking at your needs. What needs are being met when you do thrive, how in your most recent burnout episode, most of those needs were not being met by your current workplace. This goes back to the framing thing, the agency thing that we were just talking about a moment ago, too. Okay. Finding those needs to have those needs noted down for you so you can go and, like, plug into those needs. And we came up with that structure, that framework of going, hey, two hours a day at the coffee shop, and going back into things that you can refresh on that are related to mediation and maybe spending another hour a day seeing if there's an overlapping space for politics, mental health, and law, where you've got your skill Set and your passions all sort of embraced together doing some research on that for an hour a day until you really decide which one you want to go into. Okay. Second thing is you were stuck on starting the reprogramming for defective. So we got that all out so that you can actually just go plug it in and listen back. And it's easy. And I'll give you those notes to take with you. And we did cost benefit on not doing the reprogramming work and really trying to anchor in. Right. The. And if you need to, you can go back to the cost benefit. All the costs of not doing the rewiring and all the benefits of doing it. So there's. You get that resistance piece out of the way first.
- [59:57]
B
Yeah.
- [59:58]
A
Are you still following? I'm going really fast. Okay, good. You know it all and I was
- [60:01]
B
thinking of like, I'm like, oh, get like one or two quick examples of the trapped wounds. Like the.
- [60:07]
A
Let's do it. Let's do trapped. I was going to ask you if you wanted to do trapped as well. Okay, good. So let's do trapped. And then the last thing is. I'm going to give you just the very last thing is. We'll. And this will all be summarized. Our lovely team here is. Got it all together. So the last thing is then we'll do just some nervous system tools if you do go into functional freeze. Okay. So trapped. So let's pick a moment that you feel trapped. It's when you have to do something.
- [60:31]
B
Yeah. It's the shoulds. Maybe the case of the shits. Yeah, I think. Yeah.
- [60:35]
A
Yeah. And also because the shoulds just so you see this before we even do trapped. The shoulds are putting you back into the place where you go against your needs.
- [60:44]
B
Yeah.
- [60:44]
A
So then you freeze because you're going against your needs again. You don't really have like just your whole life. You won't really have the luxury of going against your needs as much as the average person.
- [60:53]
B
Wait, can you read that?
- [60:55]
A
You won't have the luxury of going against your needs as much as the average person because you don't focus when you're going against your needs. You hyper focus when you're in your needs. So as long as you use that as like your North Star to navigate your life, you'll thrive. You'll be in a happy career soon. You'll be doing things you like. You'll have energy. Your. Your needs will be met regularly. When you go into the shoulds, part of it triggers the trapped wound. But then you have a secondary part where then you go to your needs and then you shut down.
- [61:17]
B
Yeah.
- [61:18]
A
Okay, so. So trapped. So does that all make sense? Okay. Okay.
- [61:24]
B
Yeah, no, I was just thinking.
- [61:26]
A
Okay, so trapped. So let's look at. Just a second. So in your life, where do you actually have freedom?
- [61:34]
B
I guess in a lot of places. I mean I do live by myself here instead of parents. I have the freedom to do whatever I want on a day to day basis.
- [61:44]
A
Good. And let's. Let's go into them more emotionally for a second. So you have the freedom to do what you want on a daily basis. And what does that feel like when you tap into that without the judgment of oh, I'm not doing enough or whatever stories without that for a second, what do you feel? You can kind of wake up when you want. Do you feel like you have more agency in that? What does that actually feel like?
- [62:03]
B
Yeah, if I take out the other party, it does feel more authentic and free and being able to just be me and allow myself to navigate the world freely.
- [62:14]
A
And what does that feel like in your body?
- [62:17]
B
Free flowing, light. Like a breeze going through. So it feels. Yeah. A lot of it is this light whenever the positive thing comes on because I guess the heaviness has been so much that like. Yeah.
- [62:28]
A
And notice that that's underneath the defective story that. What is that lightness. It's there in the background when you're able to sort of shift your perception and tap into that. Right.
- [62:37]
B
Yeah.
- [62:37]
A
Okay. Beautiful. Where else do you have freedom?
- [62:41]
B
Freedom. I guess the times I did choose freedom. I guess. Yeah. With my parents I had to like kind of choose to like leave because they didn't want me to go to Austin or like even in Canada. They didn't want to come to side. Chose to come here.
- [62:54]
A
You came here by yourself?
- [62:56]
B
Yeah. From Toronto. Yeah.
- [62:57]
A
I didn't know that.
- [62:58]
B
Yeah. And then I guess choosing. Yeah. Start off in engineering, but I was like choosing economics and political science, law. So all of, I guess the trajectory of my life broadly, I have chosen all of it, which a lot of freedom. Yeah. Coming in place of not having regrets around it. So it's good.
- [63:17]
A
Good. And trying to notice what that feels like in your body knowing that everything that you've chosen to invest your time in up until now for the most part was actually you fully choosing that.
- [63:27]
B
Yeah. I mean there is a level of. Yeah, I guess this is the opposite where I. This one I'm feel grounded in me having the agency to do it. Where the other one it. Yeah, it Felt a lot less where this felt I took an active part in getting to this place. Yeah.
- [63:45]
A
And notice that if you've done that this entire time, you have the freedom to keep choosing the future of your life.
- [63:50]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The only story that comes up is it's the. The opposite of traveling, where I'm like, am I freely choosing? Or I'm like, because of the trap one, I need to completely do this freedom thing. Right. So sometimes that comes up. But. Yeah.
- [64:04]
A
Yeah. And notice here. Right. That. That when you're working through the next choices in your life, that you're about to spend the next three hours a day for a little bit of time exploring at your own pace in your own way, that that's a big agency piece. That that's your freedom to. You're like, I'm going to refresh mediation, see how that goes. See how that feels. I'm going to research other potential careers for an hour a day and notice that there's a lot of agency and that you're not even having to commit to something right away. You have time and you've got room and space to self consider and to feel into what's possible for you.
- [64:33]
B
Yeah. And it feels. Coming from a grounded place.
- [64:36]
A
Yeah.
- [64:36]
B
That's good. Yeah.
- [64:37]
A
Yeah. And where else do you have freedom? Maybe in like the social area of life. The personal growth area of life.
- [64:44]
B
Yeah. Social travel, like, you know, like talking to different friends from all over. I mean, all over the country. North America. Friends made on PDS when I was organizing. So I have a lot of friends traveling.
- [64:53]
A
Did you organize a group in pds? That close group of people that.
- [64:57]
B
No. Yeah. Over here there's four, and we have a. So there was like a beer, Diane. And there's another one of like off all of us DAs that we've had that group for the longest.
- [65:08]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [65:09]
B
Plus years. Yeah. The DA one is the most stable. Like, there'll be times people don't respond to everybody. I even talked to them a couple of days ago, and they've been around
- [65:16]
A
since like 2020, so they're the longest they stay. That's so funny. So you have the freedom to choose your friends, the freedom to choose you want to interact with. It sounds like you actually have a good bit of freedom in your friendships too. Sometimes people feel sort of pressured by friendships or controlled, and it feels like you're the opposite.
- [65:37]
B
Yeah.
- [65:38]
A
Beautiful.
- [65:38]
B
Like, all my friends are great and I feel lucky to be in the space.
- [65:42]
A
That's really nice. And where else do you have freedom not just in your career, your future, but in your own personal growth, your own mind. I really want to highlight this one here for a second.
- [65:53]
B
I mean, yeah, I could definitely feel this because of the place I'm in. I feel less of it now. But, like, I think up until a couple of years ago, that's where I felt the freest. And having the agency to be like, oh, I can actually grow and change. Because coming into PDS at that time being avoidant, it felt like I couldn't change my emotional world. And then it's like a three year journey of, like learning all of it through my own level of agency. So it felt like very like, oh, I can just feel through any discomfort, I can feel through any emotions. It's just like under.
- [66:23]
A
Yeah.
- [66:24]
B
All of my control.
- [66:25]
A
And notice that not only have you done that in the past, but you have the freedom to do it. Shift into what you're focusing on at any point in time. Right. Notice how different it feels just to even shift your focus ever so slightly into this.
- [66:35]
B
Yes.
- [66:35]
A
Wait, so compared to the. The. All the shirts.
- [66:40]
B
Yeah.
- [66:41]
A
All the trying to push the boulder up the hill, all the. I can't do what everybody else can do. That's actually a choice.
- [66:47]
B
Yeah.
- [66:47]
A
Right. It happens moment to moment, but it's subconscious. It's happening on autopilot. But if you catch it, you actually have the control and the freedom to say, hold on, I'm gonna do the reprogramming work. I'm gonna not tell myself the story that I can't do what everybody else can do. I already know that that's not.
- [67:05]
B
Not true.
- [67:05]
A
I already have tremendous evidence of the opposite.
- [67:08]
B
Yeah.
- [67:08]
A
And I have the freedom to sit for two minutes a day, do the rewiring work, and actually start to change my own mind.
- [67:14]
B
Yeah.
- [67:14]
A
If I focus in on it.
- [67:16]
B
Yeah. That. That part I've definitely again, less so that. But two years ago, it was all. It felt very, like, natural to be able to change and shift. And it felt very grounded and. Yeah. But I can definitely. Yeah. Feel that even today, whenever, like, I just had to sit a little bit more in it. But.
- [67:30]
A
And the reminder of it that, hold on, I can shift what. I have the freedom to choose what I focus on.
- [67:34]
B
On. Yeah.
- [67:34]
A
Right. I have the freedom to go into all the things that I can't do, what people can do, which is it's disillusionment. Right. It's not true. Or I have the freedom when I catch myself telling that story to say, wait, wait, I have lots of proof that I can do anything that other people can do. Yeah, right. So you have the freedom. What I'm trying to really anchor in to your awareness is that you have the freedom to choose how you see yourself and what you focus on.
- [68:00]
B
Yeah. Yes. I. I do feel that you might
- [68:05]
A
lose track of it sometimes, but knowing that you have the freedom to choose, it will matter.
- [68:09]
B
Yeah.
- [68:09]
A
Okay. Then the follow up will be the actual wiring it in.
- [68:12]
B
Yeah.
- [68:13]
A
Okay.
- [68:13]
B
Because I know if I do that, I know I can feel it because I've already felt that fully to the maximum and I've lost a little bit. But yeah, once I gain it back then.
- [68:21]
A
And why did you lose it?
- [68:23]
B
I think it's just the only.
- [68:25]
A
Because you didn't do the work on this part.
- [68:26]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. The discomfort around. I don't know why, the defective discomfor around that was like, I guess harder to feel through dress.
- [68:34]
A
Yeah. And that's okay. But. But I just. I really want you to see that like not only do you have the autonomy and the freedom to choose to do the work on it, which will just be a little bit of time every day, but also the reason you felt really good in the past and then got stuck here is just because you just only didn't work through this part yet. Which means there's like a lot of freedom and control on the other side.
- [68:53]
B
Yeah, in a sense. Yeah. Like across the August. Across the hill. Yeah, like in the Definitely feel.
- [68:57]
A
Exactly. And if you've already proven you can do it before with other things in relationships, of course you can do it with these things.
- [69:02]
B
Yeah, yeah. In this moment, I believe that, you know, I trust. Yeah, I think that's definitely true. I think to work through it. I can feel that lightness on the other side of it. Yeah, yeah.
- [69:13]
A
And now your conscious mind gets it. You're feeling it in your body. It's reaching your subconscious mind a little bit. But now we need the 21 days of listening back, feeling about it. And every time that you listen back and feel about these things and do the rewiring work. Yeah. You're actually granting yourself more freedom each time.
- [69:28]
B
Yeah.
- [69:29]
A
It's freedom, not trapping. Right. It's actually giving you freedom. Giving you. And so that that ability to do that is opening your freedom more and more each day.
- [69:37]
B
Yeah. And I definitely feel a spiral instead of downwards. It's an upward spiral.
- [69:40]
A
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so love this. Okay. So you come up with way more than 10 for. For free and effective. Great job.
- [69:47]
B
Okay.
- [69:48]
A
Amazing. And that's what you're gonna Take home and then actually, like, feel about on a regular basis. Okay. Promise? Promise.
- [69:54]
B
No, no, definitely. This feels very. Even if it's a bunch of things, it feels light. So that. That's good that it does feel lighter.
- [70:00]
A
And then it's just to get built all the way into new neural networks in your brain by just spending the couple minutes a day in the morning or evening, doing the rewiring work.
- [70:07]
B
I'll put this in our accountability webinars.
- [70:08]
A
Good. They're going to be there. I love that. That's perfect. Typing it in there. Okay, so the last thing is, as you're starting to do this work, you're rewiring these beliefs so that you don't go into this shame mode. That doesn't cause you to go into freeze mode at the root, right?
- [70:25]
B
Yeah.
- [70:25]
A
And you're starting to live a life that's more in alignment with your needs. You're chipping away and carving out a life that has more alignment with those needs that we talked about earlier. Those are the root causes of why your nervous system gets dysregulated. Your needs are not being met. These core wounds are causing you to feel negative emotions that then put you in sympathetic nervous system mode, and then you go into freeze. However, you go into freeze and you catch yourself doing it. I'm just going to give you a couple of tools for what you can do. Okay? So the first thing is when you're in functional freeze, the other way of saying it is that if you sort of had like, a diagram of your nervous system or like an analogy for your nervous system. We have at the top sympathetic nervous system, which is fight or flight. Okay. In the middle, you have your window of tolerance or ventral vagal nervous system mode. And then at the bottom, you've got dorsal vagal shutdown. You obviously spend the time when you're coping. Endorsal vagal shutdown, or maybe functional freeze, you said earlier, which can be sort of the. The blend of the two. Now, what you want to be able to do when you're in dorsal vagal shutdown is you want to start. The very first step is you're going to practice re associating yourself. Okay? So the first thing is, like, if. Let's say you're laying on the couch and you're having that, like, dorsal vagal shutdown feeling where everything's hard. Maybe you're sitting there, you're going to, I have to do the dishes. And you're like, oh, I can't do the dishes. You know that feeling of that heaviness. First thing is you're going to reorient yourself. So you'll start and. And you'll do it for about a minute. Okay. You can like put the timer on your phone and you're going to start trying to feel what it feels like to be in your body. And you want to look around the room and do things to try to actually anchor yourself into the room. So if you're in your living room, wherever you might be, you might look at the color of the couch, start naming the colors that you see, start naming things you see around your environment. And it's just getting you back to being present. Okay. That's the first thing. And you'll do that in little doses if you can, for 60 to 90 seconds until you feel like you're kind of back.
- [72:14]
B
Yeah.
- [72:14]
A
Okay. And usually it takes three, maybe four times to do that. And now you're sort of back. And then you're gonna start feeling underneath that shutdown is usually a little bit of that anxious energy or what you were feeling or what you were avoiding. And now that you're back in your body and you're back oriented again, you're gonna feel some of that coming up.
- [72:32]
B
Yeah.
- [72:32]
A
So what you'll then do is you'll want to actually take a moment and try to discharge that energy. So we were talking about this earlier. All mammals, they do this whenever they experience a threat or a stressful experience. They shake after and they're discharging excess cortisol human beings, because we have such strong executive function, shut that down, suppress that response. And so you'll want to do something when you come out of that freeze and you're now oriented in your body where you're discharging that energy, you feel a little bit of anxiety. You may do something like push down on the couch around you and sort of push that anxiety out or shake a little bit. And shaking is one of the best things to do a little bit because it's natural, it's what we're sort of wired to do. And so you'll shake, you'll move around and you'll start feeling that you can discharge some of that stress response a little bit and you'll feel a little bit better. And as you start coming and again, you'll do that in like 60 to 90 second segments, like increments there, until you're feeling, oh, okay, I'm kind of coming back to life a little bit. And then what you'll do after that is you'll then try to take Small actions. So walk around the room a little bit, maybe do one dish, maybe turn on some music, something that feels good, that sort of brings you back to life a little bit. And that's your way of dealing with the dorsal vagal shutdown. You reorient yourself and you discharge that excess energy from a nervous system perspective. And then you start doing small things to come back into your window of tolerance. Tolerance again.
- [73:54]
B
That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [73:57]
A
Have you ever tried anything like that before?
- [73:59]
B
Yes, somewhat. I mean, I think for me, I always remember the window of tolerance about like the polyvagal theory one where it's. The bottom is the window of tolerance, then the anxiety and then the freeze. Because always for me, you have to go through the anxiety to get to the normal one.
- [74:13]
A
That. So this is the same thing. But when you're endorsed vagal shutdown, you have to that. That's why you push the anxiety out.
- [74:17]
B
Seconds.
- [74:18]
A
Yeah, okay.
- [74:18]
B
Yeah, no, no, that's why I like. Because it's. It's, I guess, structured in a way where you have to go through the anxiety to get the normal. And I think, yeah, there are times where I've tried it where, like working out, meditation, that kind of works sometimes for me. Right. Because that's one of them's like releasing the other one's calming to be present. So that. But, yeah, I haven't done it as intentionally as. Yeah, but that makes sense.
- [74:40]
A
And it's just a good way to follow the system a little bit more if you need that structure. And I'm the same way. Like, sometimes it's just nice to meditate and it kind of brings you back into your body again and you can start there, But. But going through that, I think especially because. And tell me if this resonates. I think you go into dorsal vegal shutdown and then underneath it. Is that stress?
- [74:57]
B
Yes, yes. Underneath is all the anxiety.
- [75:01]
A
So that will allow you to like, reorient. So you're out of shutdown, then discharge, and then you can do something like meditate. Then you can do something like. And it'll feel a little more natural. Or you can do something like do a dish or do something around the house to just bring yourself back into that window again.
- [75:15]
B
Yeah, and I know, I think it worked when I was like, back when I was like going numbing a bit when I was like fully present. Is there anything different when you're like on a strong functional freeze versus, like. Oh, like, I'm just numbing for a bit. Like in. When I was much more Present when I was numbing, I could easily come in and out.
- [75:31]
A
Yeah.
- [75:31]
B
When it's functional, there's like so much overwhelm. There's like a lot of, I guess, baggage around.
- [75:36]
A
Yes. So if you're in a place where you're so. And that's why, like, all these prongs matter. So, you know, it kind of depends on what area you're looking at it from. So if you're just in a really deep dorsal vehicle shutdown and that's where you're coming from, then you'll want to follow those steps and you'll just have to titrate them for longer. So you're orienting. Will expand out. So instead of orienting yourself and maybe you look around the room and you notice objects and you come back and you're feeling what it feels like to be in your body. Instead of doing that for 60 seconds and being like, oh, I'm back. You know, and feeling like you're oriented again and you're more present, you might have to do it a few times until you're like, okay, I feel it. And you can almost imagine like you're dethawing from numbing.
- [76:15]
B
Yeah.
- [76:16]
A
Right. So you're thawing out a little bit and that's that first thing. You'll just have to do it more times in a titrated way. Then you're. Then when you feel that sort of underlying sympathetic energy because now you're feeling what's actually going on in your body, then you might have to do things like pushing or shaking or things like that just a little bit more frequently. And again, like more. More segments there of 60 to 90 seconds. And then you're going to feel like, okay, now I'm starting to feel like I can do something small. I can actually build this ability to take action. So these sort of like micro tasks that you can do. So that will just be longer periods of time. However, I really can never stress enough that if you only do the nervous system work, don't do the core wound, then you're just going to have to deal with this all the time. And it's like, okay, great, I'm bringing myself back into the window of tolerance. And then three hours later, I'm back into the shutdown mode because something else has triggered those core wounds again. Or because I'm trying to live. Or. Cause I'm trying to live a life where my needs are not met again. And now I'm back into these root cause issues. And then I, yeah, go regulate my nervous system. But that's always the effect of these underlying things. First.
- [77:17]
B
Yeah, yeah. Because I think I am doing that because I am sometimes doing the. The nervous system regulation without the things that makes sense.
- [77:23]
A
Exactly.
- [77:24]
B
Yeah. So let me.
- [77:25]
A
And that's the. Okay, so I'm going to summarize everything because we actually covered so much. You did such an amazing job. You did so good. Because, you know a lot. We could go deep really fast. So first things first. I want you to forever take the time to really notice and. And remind yourself, if you can on a daily basis too, that you are not lo. You don't lose agency or lose focus. You just have a duty to stay focused on things that you like.
- [77:51]
B
Yeah.
- [77:52]
A
And that's for your whole life. You're gonna look back one day and you're gonna be like, oh, my goodness.
- [77:56]
B
Yes.
- [77:57]
A
I'm like, oh, my goodness. I actually thrived at life when I chose things I really like.
- [77:59]
B
Yeah.
- [78:00]
A
So you have a duty. That's what ADHD means to me. It means like, okay, you have to choose things that you're really interested in. So you're. You're actually leveraging hyper focus all the time.
- [78:07]
B
Yeah.
- [78:07]
A
And you can't really afford to live a life of resistance.
- [78:10]
B
Yeah.
- [78:10]
A
So delegating properly, choosing what you're doing properly, making sure that you. You really invest in things that you like. And honoring that is so important. Okay, first thing. Second thing, then we have your needs, which I wrote out, and we'll send back with you so you can really make sure you look through those needs. And those will be needs to bring into your career, because that's where you thrash.
- [78:27]
B
Yeah.
- [78:27]
A
Okay. Third thing is, we talked about the reprogramming. You've got all your traps set up, your defective setup so you can do the opposite and really feel that and build those new neural networks in your brain. If you still feel a little resistance, we have cost benefit, so you can go back to cost benefit first. You can do that a little bit first if that's easier. And then it'll be easier to sit in the trapped and defective working through those. And then last but not least, you have those nervous system reregulation tools. It's also in the advanced Advanced Nervous System regulation webinar if you want to go back through and remind yourself of anything. And then you have the opportunity to dive into all of it.
- [79:00]
B
Yeah, that's very clear.
- [79:03]
A
Yeah. And you can pick one little thing at a time. Right. So the trapped and defective reprogramming can be seven minutes a day in the Morning or in the evening, something you listen back, you feel about simple. And then the little bits of needs work that you're doing can be things that you go investigate for a couple hours a day. You go to the coffee shop, you refresh the mediation stuff. And now you have three hours a day. While you do have time and space and it doesn't have to be every day, it can be a couple days a week if you want. You can start easing into that and you may even want to wake up to your reprogramming for five minutes, do a little nervous system work afterwards. So then you feel like you're in ventral vagal mode and now you feel good about going to the coffee shop.
- [79:39]
B
That makes sense.
- [79:39]
A
Now you got a nice little system in there, you can do those things together. And I promise you, as much as it sounds like, oh, I have things to do now, it's going to give you so much energy back.
- [79:47]
B
Yeah. No, even when I say like, think of it because it's like when you have that many things, sometimes I feel heavy. This doesn't feel heavy. So there's a good sign.
- [79:55]
A
That's good, that's really good. And we're going to put it all into a system for you to be able to take home and really dig into next. So the main takeaways for him to follow up with today are a bunch. And we were able to go really deep and cover a lot of bases because him so familiar with the work and has really plugged in. The very first thing that's so important, and I think this really translates to anybody who may be watching this at home and has ADHD or has been diagnosed, is that you have a really strong duty throughout your life to know what you really like, what you enjoy and what lights you up and to follow that and to carve out. And instead of trying to design your life according to society or what you think people tell you you should be doing, we need to actually really self consider and build our lives according to our interests, our passions and our needs. And by doing that, we light up and we're way less likely to feel weighed down or feel like we tune out or dissociate or disconnect. And so it's a really important first piece. The second piece is we talked about him's needs a little bit more specifically so that he could go in there and really find what lights him up, what might tra. What might actually translate into his career. And he's going to spend some time in a structured way researching that, considering that thinking about the different options and plugging away at that, especially in a way that considers his social needs. So being in a coffee shop or leveraging Focus Nate, because he has a big social need connection. And so that really allows him to tap into that in easier form. And then of course, you know, at the root of why we go into freeze mode, why we burn out, really tend to exist, not just needs, but also in a really big way, our core wounds. Because the more our core wounds are triggered, the more we have stressful thoughts, we have stressful emotions that follow. Those emotions are then made up of neurochemical reactions like cortisol, which then trigger a nervous system to move into fight or flight. And so now all of a sudden, we have a nervous system that feels out of control because of those core wounds activating and triggering that. That. So we built in his 21 days of rewiring on both the core wound of defective and trapped, which will really open up his world and allow him to see that he can do things that other people can do, that he's capable and that he's free and has a lot more freedom and agency than he might realize or be focusing in on. And in turn, that will really regulate his nervous system responses and emotions on a regular basis. And then the last major piece that we covered are some tools that he can take home that you can also try at home. And there are tools to help us regulate our nervous system, rooted in the work of Dr. Stephen Porges and polyvagal theory that allows him to be able to move into his window of tolerance and have more control over his nervous system if he does feel like he's in shutdown mode by really pulling on those three prongs or sort of three rings that we talked about in here today. Those are all levers that can be leveraged whenever he's feeling shut down to really transform this. Not just if he's in dorsal vagal shutdown mode or functional freeze, but also to make sure that that doesn't even have to happen by addressing the needs and the core wounds at root cause. So I hope this is helpful for you today at home. You can practice these things too. And thank you so much for being such a wonderful guest.
- [82:45]
B
Thank you.
- [82:47]
A
Thank you so much for every. For being here, for. For going through this here with me today. Where can anybody find out more about you on social media if they want to connect with you, if they resonated with your story, if they want to follow your. Your progress or what you get up to?
- [83:00]
B
Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm on Instagram. Just my first name and last name. H I M R A N, J, I, T. So you can. Yeah. On Instagram. Probably the easiest.
- [83:08]
A
Perfect. Okay. Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you.
- [83:11]
B
This is super helpful for me and I think just gave me a lot more clarity and to how to navigate, I guess, this time moving forward, too. So.
- [83:18]
A
Yeah. And how to use it so that you look back and you're like, oh, I really use that. And made the most of it. And I'm energized by it as well, going forward.
- [83:24]
B
Yeah.
- [83:24]
A
Thank you.