Why Dismissive Avoidants Shut Down Instead of Speaking Up

Summary

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The Thais Gibson Podcast

Episode: Why Dismissive Avoidants Shut Down Instead of Speaking Up

Date: May 30, 2026
Host: Thais Gibson
Guest: Steve Nestor
Main Theme:
Why people with dismissive avoidant attachment styles tend to shut down rather than express their needs in relationships, and practical strategies for creating vulnerability and emotional intimacy.

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Episode Overview

This episode is an in-depth coaching session between Thais Gibson and her guest, Steve Nestor, who has worked on shifting from a predominantly dismissive avoidant attachment style toward a more secure style. Through exploring Steve’s background and real conflict scenarios in his marriage, Thais illustrates the unseen dynamics and internal narratives fueling emotional withdrawal, and offers step-by-step tools to reprogram these patterns and foster authentic connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dismissive Avoidant Attachment: Roots and Coping Mechanism

• Childhood Environment:
  Dismissive avoidants often grow up with stable, predictable parents who are not emotionally attuned. They learn to suppress their need for emotional connection since it isn’t met, instead favoring independence and intellectualizing feelings. - “Avoidants grew up with a lot of stability in childhood for the most part… but a lot of times they don’t get attunement.” — Thais (00:00) - “You cope in your childhood by rejecting that part of yourself that needs emotional connection, that needs vulnerability and presence or attunement... become independent, do my own thing, get really mental and intellectual, kind of repress this feeling part of myself to cope.” — Thais (00:42)
• Internal Narrative:
  Steve shares that his parents were strict but not very emotionally expressive; this led to rebellion as a teen but also a learned independence and “conflict avoidance.” - “I didn’t have arguments with my girlfriends… I wouldn’t have a lot of serious relationships until I was 28.” — Steve (04:08)

2. Conflict Avoidance and Its Costs in Relationships

• Invisible Walls:
  When both partners avoid conflict, issues go unspoken and create distance. - “Each time there’s a conflict that’s avoided, you build an invisible wall between yourself and that person. And you don’t mean to, but conflict exists and then it doesn’t go anywhere.” — Thais (06:03)
• Passive Withdrawal:
  Both Steve and his wife Lisa tend to withdraw rather than argue, which leads to parallel lives rather than true partnership. - “We probably dismiss and then go our separate ways… and then I’m thinking, well, once this is all over, it’s going to all get better.” — Steve (08:45)

3. The Real Roots of Conflict: Personal Meaning and Wounds

• Subjective Meaning Trumps Objective Facts:
  Thais illustrates that the surface issue in conflict isn’t the true issue; it’s the meaning partners make of it, often based on old wounds. - “[A couple] tried to solve for it by talking about the clothes on the floor… it’s not really the clothes on the floor. That’s not the root of what’s happening.” — Thais (11:11)
• Identifying Emotional Triggers:
  Steve recognizes that when Lisa gives directions in the car, he feels “disrespected” — a core wound that traces back to earlier experiences of not being seen or valued. - “In that moment, you feel a little irritated, a little uncertain. What do you make it mean about you…?” — Thais (18:48) - “Probably not respected would be the one. Yeah, because that’s important for a man.” — Steve (20:12)

4. How Avoidant Coping Looks in Real Life

• Clamming Up and Distancing:
  When feeling hurt or disrespected, Steve would clam up, grip the steering wheel, and emotionally pull away.
  - “I would either clam up, grab the steering wheel more tightly… think about, am I going the right way? I would just go that way to avoid the conflict.” — Steve (20:44)
• Repeating Childhood Patterns:
  Thais maps Steve’s emotional distance back to his upbringing, where emotional needs weren’t addressed, so sharing vulnerability was unfamiliar or unsafe. - “Avoidants cope by rejecting that part of themselves that needs emotional connection, become independent… repress this feeling part of myself to cope.” — Thais (26:54)

5. The Work: Reprogramming the “Story” and Creating Connection

• Question the Narrative:
  Steve is guided to question the automatic meaning he gives to events — e.g., Lisa giving directions = she doesn’t respect me — and consider alternative explanations. - “Could it be something other than that? Maybe she’s just stressed, maybe she’s worried about time, maybe she’s trying to be helpful?” — Thais (30:00)
• Share the Inner World:
  Emotional intimacy is built when even uncomfortable thoughts or feelings (e.g., I feel unloved, I feel disrespected) are vulnerably shared with a partner. - “Where you’re going to have a huge breakthrough in your marriage is through saying what’s going on inside of you.” — Thais (54:44) - “Intimacy is you opening up your inner world to her too.” — Thais (57:22)
• The Process (Practical Steps) [71:20–73:40]:
  1. Notice the conflict.
  2. Ask: What am I making this mean about myself?
  3. Identify the core wound (list of common wounds: unloved, disrespected, unwanted, not good enough, abandoned, misunderstood).
  4. Question the story: Is this the only possible explanation?
  5. Share your authentic feelings and needs with your partner.
     • “This is what comes up for me. I need to know that you respect me. Can we hash it out?” — Thais (72:28)
  6. Encourage reciprocation—ask your partner what is coming up for them.

6. Vulnerability as the Pathway to Intimacy

• Practice in Real Conflicts:
  Steve and Thais role-play how to use new vulnerability skills in triggers: - Car directions scenario — Steve could say:
  “I love you, but when you tell me this, it makes me feel disrespected. Can we talk about it?” — Steve (57:02) - Separation scenario — Steve could say:
  “You going upstairs like this really makes me feel unloved. I don’t understand what’s going on here, but I really want to.” — Steve (55:11)
• Rewiring Through Repetition:
  Thais emphasizes these old patterns aren’t fixed; with repeated, intentional vulnerability, even deeply ingrained avoidance can shift. - “They get conditioned into us, and through repetition and emotion… we can recondition them.” — Thais (73:43)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the root cause of avoidance:
  “You cope in your childhood by rejecting that part of yourself that needs emotional connection… become independent, do my own thing, get really mental and intellectual, kind of repress this feeling part of myself to cope.” — Thais (00:42)

• On invisible walls in relationships:
  “Each time there’s a conflict that’s avoided, you build an invisible wall between yourself and that person… conflict, it exists, and then it doesn’t go anywhere.” — Thais (06:03)

• On finding the real wound beneath small arguments:
  “It’s not really the clothes on the floor… We go our whole lives never properly resolving things because we’re not talking about what we make it mean.” — Thais (11:32)

• On practical vulnerability:
  “Where you’re gonna have a huge breakthrough in your marriage is through saying what’s going on inside of you. She wants that. Any person in a relationship with a dismissive (avoidant) ... yearns for that.” — Thais (54:44)

• Reframing the narrative in conflict:
  “Notice that when you feed into that little story in that moment… it closes off possibilities. And then when you feel that way… you proceed, but you’ve already told the story to yourself briefly, that I am disrespected. Then there’s a distancing.” — Thais (34:20)

• On breaking the cycle:
  “Until you share your inner worlds, you have all the excuses in the world to keep putting your walls up... But if she heard you say, I feel really hurt when… you don’t tell me things and I want you to, she sees what you’re actually feeling and that you need her to share.” — Thais (67:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 – Dismissive avoidant childhood experience explained
• 05:04 – Steve discusses regrets about communication in marriage
• 06:03–06:52 – Thais: Internalizing conflict as creating “invisible walls”
• 10:11–12:26 – Thais’ story about conflict, surface issues vs deeper wounds
• 14:09–21:29 – Steve’s car scenario & identifying core wound: feeling disrespected
• 26:54–28:26 – Thais links Steve’s wiring to his upbringing and parents’ emotional style
• 30:10–34:28 – Reframing meaning of conflict, “Could it be something else?”
• 41:29–47:39 – Real-time practice: sharing feelings in conflict; difference between managing partner’s emotions vs authentic self-revelation
• 54:44–58:05 – The importance of vulnerability; practical phrases and mindsets
• 71:20–73:40 – Core process for identifying and communicating emotional needs
• 74:13–75:16 – Closing reflections and encouragement for ongoing practice

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Episode Takeaways

• Most “shut down” behaviors in dismissive avoidants are subconscious survival mechanisms rooted in childhood environments where emotional needs were unmet.
• The key to shifting these patterns is not just “doing the right thing” in conflict, but actively investigating and sharing the meaning you attach to those situations, especially your fears and vulnerabilities.
• True intimacy is forged by revealing your inner world — even when uncomfortable — and inviting your partner to do the same.
• Regularly question the stories you tell yourself during conflict, and communicate your needs out loud, not just through indirect action.
• Healing and “rewiring” these patterns is possible through repeated, intentional vulnerability.

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Final Words

Steve’s journey reflects the transformation possible when dismissive avoidants begin to open up—first to themselves, and then to their partners. As Thais affirms, vulnerability is not just emotional exposure; it is the essential bridge to healing past wounds and creating true, dynamic intimacy in present relationships.

Stay tuned for future episodes exploring Lisa and Steve’s continuing story and practical tools for couples overcoming attachment patterns.

Transcript

[Thais Gibson]

And avoidants grew up with a lot of like stability in childhood for the most part, like pretty predictable parents that are nice but a lot of times they don't get attunement.

[Steve Nestor]

Don't get what?

[Thais Gibson]

Attunement, which means like having a parent who's present, who's emotionally available to you, who if you cry or get upset, they're like, honey, what's wrong? Are you okay? And tries to soothe you. And so when you don't get that, you don't know how to give that because it's an unknown. And then when you don't get that, because children are biologically wired for attunement, they very much need a. Human beings deeply need attunement, then what happens is you learn, okay, well, this part of me that needs this, it's not working.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Even though I need it, it keeps getting rejected.

[Thais Gibson]

It's not here and it's missing. And so you cope in your childhood by rejecting that part of yourself that needs emotional connection, that needs vulnerability and presence or attunement and you're like, oh, I'm just going to reject this part of myself, become independent, do my own thing, get really mental and intellectual, kind of repress this feeling part of myself to cope.

[Steve Nestor]

You're sounding like me.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Welcome to Breakthrough with Thais Gibson. You're going to see me sit down with Steve, who once was very dismissive,

[Interviewer/Coach]

avoidant and who's done some work to

[Thais Gibson]

become a little bit more securely attached. But we're going to dive into opening up his communication, his vulnerability and understanding why he does what he does in relationships and how this really applies to his relationship with Lisa. So let me introduce you to Steve.

[Steve Nestor]

Hi, I'm Steve Nestor and glad to be here in Toronto, Canada. I'm American, proud to be American, as they say. But anyway, born in North Carolina, grew up in Ohio and then moved to Florida. Been there for over 40 years in Florida and head back to North Carolina quite a bit. I have a 96 year old mom there that me and my brother helped take care of. So. But it's good to be in Toronto and I appreciate the opportunity to be here today and learn a little bit more about myself and maybe some of the issues that I might have and especially with conflict avoidance. I guess that's something that's, I never knew but it's kind of followed me around and it's affected my relationships. So I appreciate you having me here today.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Thank you. That was a beautiful introduction and thanks for being here. Excited to chat.

[Thais Gibson]

So I would Love to just start by hearing a little bit about your backstory.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So your sort of upbringing, your childhood,

[Thais Gibson]

just any of the outstanding themes that you. You see looking back on. On your life growing up.

[Steve Nestor]

Okay. Well, growing. Growing up in Ohio, I. My parents were rather strict, did not have a lot of money, so I never knew we were poor, but we probably were. But the, you know, if I did what I was told and did my chores, then everything worked out pretty good. And. But if I was kind of a honorary young boy, as, you know, young boys tend to be. So anyway, I would get away with whatever I could get away with. And I followed my older brother, who's a year and a half older, Dave, and so he would kind of show me the, you know, you can get away with this. You know, this is, you know, this is how you do it. You know, sneak out the bedroom window and go see the girl down the street sort of thing. So that. So I rebelled.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

In my childhood. Not my childhood so much. Well, more as a teen.

[Thais Gibson]

And. And when you look back through some of the patterns that you saw in previous relationships or over the course of your life, was there any sort of repeating theme that you see as being a challenge?

[Steve Nestor]

Good question. I would say I would. I didn't know at the time, but I wouldn't have arguments with my girlfriends and did not really have a lot of serious girlfriends or relationships until Probably I was 28 when I was in Florida.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

And then got married at that time. She's passed away, but I'm sorry. She would, she would get mad at me and she'd go out in the garage with a hammer and. And pound on the workbench.

[Thais Gibson]

Oh, my God.

[Steve Nestor]

And to take out her frustrations because I probably wasn't responding and understanding, Communicating.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

I could always be a better communicator. So that was probably the one thing that I think about after she passed is, you know, I wished I'd been a better communicator. And so still working on that. So any help you can get.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah, we're going to dive into it.

[Thais Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer/Coach]

But it's beautiful. I just want to honor that you're doing the work. Right. Like, you're in it, you're here, you're. You're showing up. So I think that's really powerful. And would you say that you saw

[Thais Gibson]

that same sort of theme emerge in your marriage with Lisa as well?

[Steve Nestor]

I thought it wouldn't, and it probably didn't initially, but then later on, I think both of us tend to be conflict avoiders. And so we wouldn't discuss. She wouldn't share her feelings about, you know, something that had come up. Yeah. So I'm supposed to know this, you know.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. And you're actually not supposed to know.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Right. Like, the reality is that unless somebody's

[Thais Gibson]

sharing, you can't really know what's going on. And so it's funny because sometimes when you take two people and they both avoid conflict a little bit and they sort of internalize things, it's just each time there's a conflict that's avoided, you build an invisible wall between yourself and that person. And you don't mean to, but conflict, it exists, and then it doesn't go anywhere.

[Interviewer/Coach]

It just. It just goes between you.

[Thais Gibson]

So somebody might think, okay, we're going

[Interviewer/Coach]

to avoid the conflict.

[Thais Gibson]

We're not going to talk. But then it's just carried as an internal conflict instead of externalized and worked through in the relationship.

[Steve Nestor]

Okay.

[Thais Gibson]

And so when you externalize conflict and you hash it out and you get

[Interviewer/Coach]

to the roots of it and you talk it through.

[Thais Gibson]

Well, now we transmuted it into something productive.

[Steve Nestor]

Right.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay. But if you don't say anything and you stuff it down, you just sort

[Interviewer/Coach]

of get stored as an assumption about the other person and an assumption about

[Thais Gibson]

maybe how they feel about you, and then we just carry it around. So that's why working through conflict is so powerful and important.

[Steve Nestor]

Yep. That makes sense that I relate to that in that some of the work that I did on myself after our separation was recognizing that the things that I was critical about her were actually things that I was about myself. I was critical of myself, but I wouldn't call myself out, but I would, in my head, be critical. Why is she doing this? I can't believe she's doing this. I wouldn't say it to her. I would just bite my tongue and keep on going.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And that's the way it always is. We're always the most critical about things

[Thais Gibson]

we're already doing, at least to ourselves.

[Interviewer/Coach]

But we'll get into that. We'll talk about the criticisms in general.

[Thais Gibson]

So if we were to get into some of your patterns.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So before we started recording, we talked

[Thais Gibson]

about how you had recently gone through the attachment assessment. Mostly secure, but about 20% avoidant.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And so we'll work through some of

[Thais Gibson]

those themes here today.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And you strike me as somebody who's really, you know, been into the work and doing the work and really shows

[Thais Gibson]

up with a whole heart and is

[Interviewer/Coach]

very forgiving and caring and heard a lot of nice things.

[Thais Gibson]

From, from Lisa. And there's also these little repeat patterns,

[Interviewer/Coach]

right, that might be in there a little bit.

[Thais Gibson]

So I'd love to start by just looking at. If you had to sort of summarize your themes with Lisa in different conflicts, would it be that there's a frustration, you feel tension, you notice attention, both of you retreat and take space, or both of you throw a passive aggressive comment out, or you just distance. Like if you had to describe when a conflict happens, what happens from both of your ends in your eyes,

[Steve Nestor]

probably dismiss and then go our separate ways, you know. So I think that's led to a independence somewhat in that, you know, all right, I'll go do my thing, I'll go do my photography or, you know, work on the computer and she'll go watch a Netflix or something like that. And then, you know, I'm a very optimistic person. So I'm thinking, you know, oh, it's, it's, it's this cause or something. You know, we had, you know, we move, we're doing work in the house. We're, you know, different things. So I'm thinking, well, once this is all over, it's going to all get better.

[Thais Gibson]

Oh, wow.

[Steve Nestor]

So it's, you know, it's all going to be better.

[Thais Gibson]

Well, I have to tell you something. If you didn't know this already, then, because this is really important about conflict and we'll get into this specifically, but one of the most important things about conflict is that it's not really the objective information. So in reality, you can absolutely be stressed by external things.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Right?

[Thais Gibson]

It's stressful to move. It puts external pressure. It's stressful to have a bad night's

[Interviewer/Coach]

sleep or a bunch of them in a row. You know, there's these things that are

[Thais Gibson]

objectively there, but when a conflict actually bothers us out of all the things that could bother us at any given time, it's not really the objective thing alone. It's much more the subjective meaning that we give to things. So I always tell this story and I'll tell this to you and we'll actually get into your versions of it.

[Interviewer/Coach]

But I remember working years and years ago, like 13 years ago probably, and

[Thais Gibson]

it was the first year or so that I was working with couples couple, they came in to talk about a conflict they were having and it was a husband and wife. And the wife was talking about how she's upset that her husband always leaves the clothes on the floor. And as she was telling it, her hands started shaking. And I was very surprised that her

[Interviewer/Coach]

hands were shaking over the clothes on the floor.

[Thais Gibson]

And then I looked at her husband, and he started really like, you know,

[Interviewer/Coach]

he looked like a little kid. He kind of coward like a little kid.

[Thais Gibson]

And his body language changed. And I asked her, I said, well, what do you make it mean about you when you see the clothing on the floor? And she said, well, I make it mean that I'm disrespected because I try all the time to ask him to pick up his clothes, and he just. He must not respect me. My own husband doesn't respect me. And I looked at him and I said, okay, well, what do you make it mean when she gets upset? And he said, I work my butt off. I try to do a whole bunch of chores around the house. I try so hard, and she doesn't see how much effort I put in. And I just feel like she doesn't love me. And so you have these two people, and they're talking about being disrespected and unloved, but they try to solve for it by talking about the clothes on the floor. And so what ends up happening is it's not really the clothes on the floor. Okay.

[Interviewer/Coach]

You know, you don't want the clothes on the floor, it's fine.

[Thais Gibson]

But that's not the root of what's happening in the conflict. And so when we get trapped in that frame of thinking, then we go our whole lives never properly resolving things because we're not talking about what we make it mean. And so in that context, what we did is then I asked her husband, I said, okay, well, do you respect her? And she said, of course. He said, of course I respect her. I respect this and this, and lists all these things that he respects and admires and sees in her.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And of course, now she's feeling differently.

[Thais Gibson]

And I asked her, I said, well, do you love your husband? Do you see all the things he does do?

[Interviewer/Coach]

And she names them and says all these things she.

[Thais Gibson]

She loves. And now all of a sudden, they've solved the real problem instead of just trying to talk about the clothes. And it's part of why, you see in those moments that she. She may have him pick up the clothes after she's angry, she's still mad, right?

[Interviewer/Coach]

She's like, you picked up the clothes,

[Thais Gibson]

but it didn't solve the real problem.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So I want to use that as sort of a jumping off ground and

[Thais Gibson]

go into some of the conflicts so that you can see what's coming up. Because sometimes when somebody's a little bit More avoidant. One of the risks, even when you start doing the work, is that avoidance are very good, or people with even a little bit of avoidance in there. They're very good at letting things roll off their shoulders and sort of a

[Interviewer/Coach]

special skill that they tend to have and compartmentalizing at times as well.

[Thais Gibson]

And sometimes you'll then even get into a relationship with somebody. And especially because Lisa's coming through. Working on being fearful avoidant. One of the challenges you have to watch out for is that Lisa might start communicating a lot and sharing a lot and finally speaking her needs. And that's really good and really healthy, but you have to match it. And you may fall into this trap of like, oh, I'm fine. I'm always fine. So I'll just cater to what she needs. But in turn, there will actually be things you're feeling too, just like the disrespected or unloved that do exist beneath the surface. And even if they only bother you with three out of ten each time, and hers are an eight or a nine, and she's got more, you know, those things come from earlier childhood wounds. Right. So the disrespected woman in that situation, she had a huge wound, feeling disrespected by her older brothers and father growing up.

[Interviewer/Coach]

The unloved that I mentioned, he who

[Thais Gibson]

felt unloved, he had a huge wound around his mother. Right? So the bigger the wounds are, the more we'll feel them as adults. Fearful avoidance generally have a little bit more wounding than the dismissive avoidance. So hers will be stronger. So she'll bring them up more, but you'll still have little twos, threes, fours out of tens of irritation. And you have to make sure you're communicating and working through yours too.

[Steve Nestor]

That's a good point. I can think of one right off is like, we're driving. If I'm driving.

[Thais Gibson]

Yes.

[Steve Nestor]

And then she would say, she would tell me to go this way. I'm like, I know which way to go, but I wouldn't say it. I would just, you know, like, you know, so. So sometimes I just, like, go that way. At other times, like, I'm going my way,

[Interviewer/Coach]

and you go right into action.

[Thais Gibson]

So.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So let's just start there. We'll start with.

[Thais Gibson]

We'll.

[Interviewer/Coach]

We'll pick through a few conflicts, and

[Thais Gibson]

I want to just. I want to first show you the thread and then we'll work through the conflict. Okay, so let's pick that time that

[Interviewer/Coach]

you were driving when, when was a recent time where she said, Go that

[Thais Gibson]

way, go that way.

[Steve Nestor]

Even driving a up to Canada from. From North Carolina, there was some times where she would say, you know, go this way. And I didn't say anything. Like, I think more now I tend to, like, take her advice a little better than when we were butting heads more. And so now maybe it's to satiate her a little bit and to give her respect that her advice is valuable and I should respond by following her advice.

[Thais Gibson]

Yes.

[Steve Nestor]

So I've had those thoughts, and I've done that a couple of times. But then I think back to a couple years ago, near the end of our marriage, where we're driving somewhere and she's telling me to go this way, and I just bite my tongue. Or I would sometimes say something. I'm going to go this way. I know where I'm going, sort of thing. Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

And it's so interesting because you're trying to now, which is beautiful. It's. It's a good step. You're trying to now because you used to be.

[Interviewer/Coach]

A couple years ago, you said, more like, I'm going this way and do what you wanted to do.

[Thais Gibson]

And I see you trying to be flexible with her and make sure her.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Her advice feels valued and.

[Thais Gibson]

And compromise, and those are all beautiful things, but they'll still feel a tiny bit force, like I'm biting my tongue.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Unless you find the deeper meaning you're giving to it.

[Steve Nestor]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Okay. Do you see what I mean?

[Steve Nestor]

All right, I got you.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah. So. Because what happens is, you can imagine,

[Thais Gibson]

like, it's sort of like that idea that the husband goes and he picks

[Interviewer/Coach]

up the clothes, but the wife doesn't feel any better because she still is hearing the story that she's disrespected, or

[Thais Gibson]

then she could suddenly be a little nicer. Okay, thank you for picking up the clothes. But the husband still feels unloved, so I want to just peel into that a little bit so it doesn't have to feel like you're out willing or biting your tongue. In the moment where she says, go this way, go this way. If you have one in your mind

[Steve Nestor]

that's specific recently or before.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah, you can pick one more recent. We'll pick the one from driving back from North Carolina, so.

[Steve Nestor]

So more recent. I think I actually did respond, and I don't know if it was like holy spirit moment or whatever it was, but it was like, I complimented her on giving me this direction.

[Thais Gibson]

That's beautiful.

[Steve Nestor]

So I kind of, you know, thanked her, like, oh, that's a good Idea sort of thing.

[Thais Gibson]

Good for you.

[Steve Nestor]

And that's beautiful. Did seem to. I didn't have that biting my tongue sort of thing.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Good.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay. That's beautiful.

[Steve Nestor]

So that's.

[Thais Gibson]

And was there a moment of frustration before you complimented her?

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah, just that. Just that quick moment. Memory of, you know, oh, this is coming again sort of thing.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So, you know, we've stayed there. Yeah. And sorry to interrupt you.

[Thais Gibson]

I'm going to just take you through

[Interviewer/Coach]

a little bit of a process here first. So in that moment, she does that,

[Thais Gibson]

and you had a beautiful response to it, which is wonderful. But just prior to that, in the moment that she gives you advice, and maybe it's rushing a little bit, she's like, go this way, go this way. What do you feel in your body? What emotions do you feel there?

[Steve Nestor]

Hmm. Maybe a. Unsure of myself that. Oh, am I not going the right way?

[Thais Gibson]

Okay, good. So maybe a feeling of sort of uncertainty or worry.

[Steve Nestor]

Not worry, but uncertainty. Yes.

[Thais Gibson]

Any irritation there as well?

[Steve Nestor]

Yes. From her?

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah, it's okay.

[Interviewer/Coach]

That's very normal. Human. Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. And so in that moment, you feel a little irritated, a little uncertain. What do you make it mean about you, or what are you afraid will happen if, you know, she's giving you advice like that?

[Steve Nestor]

Well, if I think back to prior instances, instances where. Where we did have disagreements and conflict, even though we're avoiding them, that I got very irritated when she would tell me, you know, where to go, how to drive, or whatever, so that feeling of that irritation would come up. I'm not trying to describe it.

[Thais Gibson]

And I can give you some examples of common themes that come up for people. So did you make it mean I'm not respected? Like, what I'm doing is not respected?

[Steve Nestor]

Oh, I got you. Okay.

[Thais Gibson]

Maybe I'm unsettling.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah, that probably would be it. Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Coach]

I'm gonna try a couple on just in case. I think it's probably that one too.

[Thais Gibson]

It could be disrespected. It could be unseen, unheard. What I'm doing or my opinion doesn't matter. In some sort of way, I'm not worthy. Or maybe she's shaming me and I feel sort of shamed in this experience or like I'm not good enough, not doing a good enough job. There's the common ones we'll tend to see there. Which of those lands with you the most?

[Steve Nestor]

Well, probably not respected would be the one. Yeah. Cause that's important for a man.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. And very.

[Steve Nestor]

Absolutely for women also. But.

[Thais Gibson]

No, but it's. It's very.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

More so I. I think for a man.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Beautiful.

[Thais Gibson]

And so, so I am disrespected. And then when you believe you're disrespected in that moment, if that, that feeling comes up, that belief comes up.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Historically, you're doing some good work recently. But, but historically, what would you then

[Thais Gibson]

do when you would feel that way in a conflict?

[Steve Nestor]

I would either clam up, grab the steering wheel more tightly.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

And. Think about, am I going the right way? And you know, kind of get my mind right that, you know, double check myself. Am I going the right direction or the right. And sometimes I would, I was in the wrong. So, so, so it's like, oh, you're. It is a better way. But I wouldn't tell her that. I would just go that way to, to avoid the, the conflict.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. And when you would avoid a conflict, what happens next? Do you find yourself taking a little distance after because you're a little bit frustrated or just closing down a degree or two emotionally?

[Steve Nestor]

Definitely distancing. Yeah. Because that was kind of a theme over the last few years of our marriage.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

Was a distancing.

[Thais Gibson]

And that would be a normal thing to do if you believe your wife doesn't respect you. Right. Like it's a response, not just to

[Interviewer/Coach]

being told, hey, I want to go this way when driving, it's more a

[Thais Gibson]

response to believing that your wife doesn't respect you.

[Steve Nestor]

Right. Right.

[Thais Gibson]

Do you see the difference?

[Steve Nestor]

Good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. So, so, so what do I do?

[Interviewer/Coach]

We're gonna, we're gonna work through it for sure. We're gonna work there. I gotta show you it first.

[Steve Nestor]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Okay. Okay. So we're gonna go through one or two more. Okay. And we're just gonna.

[Thais Gibson]

I just want to.

[Interviewer/Coach]

For you to see the theme.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay. And. And before we go into one or

[Interviewer/Coach]

two more and then we'll actually will chip away at them.

[Thais Gibson]

I'd love to hear too. Is there a theme, any growing up, any wound or frustration feeling disrespected by anybody in your life, where that's been stored subconsciously first?

[Steve Nestor]

Not that I can recall. Again, as I mentioned my teen years, I was, you know, kind of the kid from the other side of the tracks, so I wanted to fit in with, with the group and you know, so there was a. It could have been some lack of respect in that because I was from the west side.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

And never thought of that. But, but I definitely. That's probably the reason that I got into marijuana so much back then. Was I was able to fit in

[Thais Gibson]

with this crowd and get some respect.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

So, you know, he can. He can smoke as much as we do. So I respect you. Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So there you go. So you can see. And often what happens is we have these earlier experiences.

[Thais Gibson]

And how a trigger works is your subconscious mind actually stores everything. It consolidates memories a little bit over time, but it stores them all.

[Steve Nestor]

Okay.

[Thais Gibson]

And all memory gets stored with the emotion attached to it. So if you say a favorite memory, you might smile or laugh. If you say a sad memory, you might feel emotional and upset. And so what happens is our memory, our subconscious mind stores all these memories with all this emotion. And then when we have something all this time later, any point in time

[Interviewer/Coach]

later, unless we've really rewired that wound

[Thais Gibson]

or work through it, it's almost in essence, like you're in the car and you're driving, and Lisa says, turn. Turn this way. Go this way. And your conscious mind almost speaks to your subconscious mind and says, what do

[Interviewer/Coach]

we know about feeling this way?

[Thais Gibson]

A little disrespected. And whatever you've stored from all these past experiences floods to the surface. And now you're not just experiencing this moment of Lisa saying, go this way.

[Interviewer/Coach]

You're experiencing that moment, making it mean that you're disrespected.

[Thais Gibson]

And that's flooding all the times you might have felt a little disrespected in the past to the forefront.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And that's what a trigger is.

[Thais Gibson]

It's. We have an unresolved past story that's popping up in the present that has a big history behind it. Does that make sense?

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah, it does. Can I ask you a question?

[Thais Gibson]

Of course.

[Steve Nestor]

Lisa has suggested some books to me, and so some I've read, it's like, you know, that doesn't apply to me. And it was the. It was the Emotionally Unavailable man. And so I read one book, and it was like I was torn up because it was. It was me. And then. And then I read another book kind of by the same title, almost different author. It's like, that's not me. So. So. So not being emotionally available or goes in line with what you're saying, sort of. And that I'm maybe bearing those emotions,

[Thais Gibson]

that you probably have done a really good job in your life at compartmentalizing them.

[Steve Nestor]

Mm.

[Thais Gibson]

So I'll give you a little backstory there to answer your question. It's a great question. So often what happens is when you have somebody who grows up a little more avoidant, and I'm gonna guess that probably as you built a relationship to Christ and relationship to God, that helps you come out of your shell a little bit more in many ways, which is probably why you became more secure over time. But I'm gonna guess it maybe especially in earlier life, before any monumental time

[Steve Nestor]

where you felt, yeah, that wasn't until my mid-30s, so, yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

So I'm gonna guess before that you're probably a little. A lot more like truly dismissive. Avoidant and avoidance. Grew up with a lot of, like, stability in childhood, for the most part, like pretty predictable parents that are nice, but a lot of times they don't get attunement.

[Steve Nestor]

Don't get what?

[Thais Gibson]

Attunement, which means like having a parent who's present, who's emotionally available to you, who, if you cry or get upset, they're like, honey, what's wrong? Are you okay? And tries to soothe you. And so when you don't get that, you don't know how to give that because it's an unknown. And then when you don't get that, because children are biologically wired for attunement, they very much need a human being's deeply need attunement. Then what happens is you learn, okay, well, this part of me that needs this, it's not working.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Even though I need it, it keeps getting rejected. It's not here and it's missing.

[Thais Gibson]

And so you cope in your childhood by rejecting that part of yourself that needs emotional connection, that needs vulnerability and presence or attunement, and you're like, oh, I'm just going to reject this part of myself, become independent, do my own thing, get really mental and intellectual, kind of repress this feeling, part of myself to cope.

[Steve Nestor]

You're sounding like me.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah. And then that becomes how you learn to relate to people as an adult. Because it's what you were related through and with.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah, yeah. Because my parents didn't. They had some conflict, but they didn't. They didn't have arguments in front of us. My dad was, you know, he was out doing his thing and not around a whole lot, so.

[Thais Gibson]

And so how could you ever learn how to have an argument with somebody? You never saw it. Right. And how could you give anything other than a lot of, you know, you being independent? Because that's what love was for you growing up is. You were taught to foster that. So it's your conditioning. And we take in our conditioning and then we play it out with others. So then you have Lisa, who interestingly comes from, like, a very different type of conditioning, who deeply needs attunement and

[Interviewer/Coach]

presence and, you know, is yearning for

[Thais Gibson]

that in a really big way, even, like, more so than the average person. And then that happens to be something that's an unknown in many ways to you, or at least something you were forced to divorce from in yourself at some point as a young boy, probably. And then that's what's showing up as how arguments and conflict play out as an adult.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Does that answer that makes sense?

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

That's a great question.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So we'll go back here for a second.

[Thais Gibson]

So in conflict, then, as a result, you feel a little disrespected sometimes. Maybe it's only a 3 or a 4 out of 10. It's not super strong. But then your theme is to deactivate,

[Interviewer/Coach]

to take distance as soon as you

[Thais Gibson]

feel like you're hurt or frustrated.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah, I would say so. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And we gave a.

[Thais Gibson]

You gave a really good example in the car. And I just want to start with the car itself.

[Steve Nestor]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Okay. So you asked what to do about it.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay. And what you're doing is partially excellent, but there's a big missing piece. So you being able to try to have grace in that moment and give Lisa a compliment about her directions, that's a beautiful thing. But there's a part missing, which is that you didn't really get to work

[Interviewer/Coach]

through your own story.

[Steve Nestor]

Okay.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay. So then you still feel disrespected. You do something nice, but you kind of forgot about you. And we want both to be considered.

[Steve Nestor]

I'm all ears.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Okay. So in that moment, Lisa's giving you

[Thais Gibson]

direction, and you feel disrespected. Right. Very common experience to have. But you are being disrespected by Lisa, and Lisa truly doesn't respect you in the moment that she's giving you directions. Is that true?

[Steve Nestor]

It's not true. I don't think. I don't think she realizes that I'm feeling disrespected unless I tell her.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Which we're going to get.

[Steve Nestor]

I think that's what you're getting at.

[Interviewer/Coach]

But there's actually a step first that's the most important.

[Thais Gibson]

So could it be something other than that? So let's look at, like, Lisa in that moment. She's giving directions, and it's a very common thing to feel. You didn't like that that happened.

[Interviewer/Coach]

That's very fair.

[Thais Gibson]

But it means that she doesn't respect you as a husband. Could it be something other than that that's actually happening? So look at Lisa, there she is. And she's stressed about the directions, maybe. What's her relationship to her? Is she sitting there going, gosh, I

[Interviewer/Coach]

don't respect my husband. Let me give him a hard time about the directions? Or what do you think it is?

[Steve Nestor]

I think. I mean, I'm just analyzing. Or different situations where I think we both tend to. And maybe it's just me thinking this, but we both tend to want to be right. And so I think I'm right. She thinks she's right. You know, she loads a dishwasher one way, I load another, whatever, you know, that sort of thing. So in my mind, I'm thinking I'm right. I know where I'm going, but I'm not getting to where you want me to.

[Interviewer/Coach]

That's okay. I'm gonna guide you. Don't worry.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So you're doing a great job. So there she is.

[Thais Gibson]

She's giving you directions. And do you think her relationship is to not respect you? She's trying to disrespect you on purpose?

[Steve Nestor]

No, definitely not.

[Thais Gibson]

And what do you think it is for her? Do you think that it's. She's stressed about going the wrong way, maybe a little bit anxious about time, maybe worried about running behind or having to loop back.

[Interviewer/Coach]

You've been in the car for quite a few hours.

[Thais Gibson]

Like, what do you think her relationship is to the direction?

[Steve Nestor]

Well, I have been known to be wrong in my directions for. Okay, so maybe that's part of it.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Okay, that's there.

[Steve Nestor]

But, yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about her personality and that. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not trying to figure that out.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Do you think that there's a part

[Thais Gibson]

of her at all?

[Interviewer/Coach]

And I could be wrong about this, but we're just trying them on.

[Thais Gibson]

Is there a part of her that maybe thinks she's almost supporting you by telling you which way to go? Like, oh, I got to make sure he doesn't make a mistake. I got to support him.

[Steve Nestor]

It could be. It could be. I never thought of it that way,

[Thais Gibson]

but we're just checking.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. So what I like about that is the thinking of one of the things that we've clamped onto recently. It's we. It's not just me or you or you. It's we, what do we do together? And so as I think of what you're mentioning there, that makes me think of it's we. And so she is supporting me in that. So that's.

[Thais Gibson]

And if you were in the position where you thought somebody was going the wrong way in their life in any

[Interviewer/Coach]

form, directionally or personally, in some capacity,

[Thais Gibson]

wouldn't you want to respect them enough

[Interviewer/Coach]

to tell them or to offer your feedback?

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. As long as it didn't conflict with

[Interviewer/Coach]

your opinion, Cause a conflict. So. So notice the difference for just a

[Thais Gibson]

second when you believe that story that I'm being disrespected. Right. That that feeling comes up in your body and you're like, she's not respecting me. And. And notice the difference when you look outside side of that story and don't cling to that old programming that might be there, conditioning from the past, then you see it more openly and you're like, maybe she doesn't. Maybe her relationship to saying this isn't

[Interviewer/Coach]

to disrespect me, but maybe it's.

[Thais Gibson]

She's worried about time or she's trying

[Interviewer/Coach]

to be helpful or supportive.

[Thais Gibson]

How do you feel differently in that moment?

[Steve Nestor]

I would be more relaxed.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

And calmer about it. You know, we're not in a hurry. You know, it's. I've got time, so let's take an adventure. Let's go this way. Maybe it is a better way to go.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Or maybe available to just talk it out.

[Steve Nestor]

That would be a very good thing to do. Yeah. That would be different.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Hey. I think it's this way because of this reason. I think it's with.

[Steve Nestor]

Oh.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And then you come to a conclusion

[Thais Gibson]

or to even pull over for a

[Interviewer/Coach]

moment and sort it out together, double check things, whatever. Whatever you might need to do.

[Thais Gibson]

And so notice that when you feed into that little story in that moment, which is very human, all human beings do this, it closes off possibilities.

[Steve Nestor]

Right, Right.

[Thais Gibson]

And then when you feel that way, and then you proceed to go whatever way, your way, her way, but you've already told the story to yourself briefly, that I am disrespected. Right. Then there's a distancing.

[Steve Nestor]

Right, Right. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense.

[Thais Gibson]

The distancing isn't from the going the right or wrong way. The distancing is from that little intermediary piece where you believed first you made it mean that you were disrespect, and now you're reacting to that belief.

[Steve Nestor]

Oh, yeah, exactly.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay, good. So let's look a little bit further. So let's look at. Is there any evidence that Lisa actually does respect you?

[Steve Nestor]

That she does disrespect me?

[Thais Gibson]

No. That she does respect.

[Steve Nestor]

Oh, respect me. Oh.

[Interviewer/Coach]

You're like, that's the wrong way.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. She's affirmative in, you know, affirmations about my character or what I'm doing. More so now.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

Than before.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

Because we're both learning and growing.

[Thais Gibson]

Beautiful. And what's an example of something she'll say to you?

[Steve Nestor]

Well, we're both affectionate. Our love, number one love thing. Love style or whatever. So that. And just cuddling up to me and telling me she loves me or that I'm. But that I'm her only man or that sort of thing. Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

That's nice. So you feel that sense of respect from her when she's saying those things

[Interviewer/Coach]

to you, affirming you, that makes you feel loved and respected?

[Steve Nestor]

Yes.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah, that's beautiful. And do you have any other examples of how she respects you? Maybe leans on you or asks you for advice or resorts to your opinion for things?

[Steve Nestor]

I would say we listened to a kind of a meditation app by John Eldridge. It's called Pause, and it's very good. Different things. He's written a couple different books, and it's in this app called Pause. And highly recommend it.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Nice.

[Steve Nestor]

So anyway, but I'll make sure that we listen to even, like, our time together, like, in North Carolina, we were separated for quite a while, you know, maybe nine months or so. And she was driving from Florida to Canada, and I was in North Carolina helping out with my mom. And so she came, she spent the night, and we used to have. We had that habit, and we still do, of listening to the pause app for 10 minutes before I go to bed. And so it's a good way to get rid of, you know, stuff out of your head and get in the right frame of mind, you know, just giving it all to God and depending on him. So, anyway, she says she's going to sleep in the other room that night. And this was like, you know, we haven't done divorce yet, but it was, you know, separated. And I was, like, really mad. I was, you know, furious.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

And so I went up, went upstairs. She didn't want me to go upstairs. Went upstairs and. And took the. My phone says, you know, can we. Can we listen to the Pause app? And so she allowed that. And. But that was, you know, it was very painful. And that was the last time we did that for quite a while. But it was also something I could cling to, that we could do together. So we do that now. And she says. And so she'll ask me, you know, do you have a Pause queued up for us?

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

And so. So to be a kind of a spiritual Leader of our family, I think is something that she respects me for. And I probably wasn't doing a great job of that five years ago, but

[Thais Gibson]

it sounds like you're doing an amazing job now that she sees it. And what does that feel like in your body when you. You think of her trusting you and relying on you to be the spiritual leader of your family?

[Steve Nestor]

Well, there is a responsibility.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

With that.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

But also a. Good emotions. What you would call it, good. Good vibes out of that. In that it's something we're doing together. Yeah. She wants something I value. She values. We could do it together.

[Thais Gibson]

And you see the respect.

[Interviewer/Coach]

She.

[Thais Gibson]

She's following your lead with that.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. Following my lead.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

And you.

[Thais Gibson]

And maybe a feeling of fulfillment, a little bit like a responsibility, but a pride or a fulfillment sort of feeling.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. That's really beautiful. So. So is there anywhere else that you see her really respecting you.

[Steve Nestor]

In that. You know, in the last month or so, just like, for both of us, being able to talk through what our plans are, you know, what's the next thing that we're doing? And because we're in a new relationship. I mean, we're married 22 years, but we're in a new relationship.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

Now. And so to be able to. Her to ask my opinion on this and vice versa. I'll ask her, you know, is. I know you don't want to spend a lot of time in North Carolina with my family. Not that we're living with them, but.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

But, you know, it's in an old farmhouse and stuff. But that she's willing to. She knows it's important.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

And she knows family is important. She knows, you know, so her respect for me is that she's willing to go there for a couple months and, you know, let's try this two months and then we'll go from there.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

So that would be.

[Thais Gibson]

And consider you and meet you where you are and kind of follow the things that are important to you as well and deeply consider them and compromise with you over them.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. That's beautiful. So noticing that when you don't. When you go back into that old story, like, oh, I'm disrespected, you deactivate. But when you have this reference point of this idea that, like, she does

[Interviewer/Coach]

respect me and maybe she's just giving directions or trying to help or trying to support, there's a feeling of like,

[Thais Gibson]

I don't need to put a wall between us. Do you see the difference? And if you were driving in the car without that story, it might be a lot easier going forward in the future. So we find what. We make it mean, and we question the story. We're going to practice.

[Steve Nestor]

Say it again.

[Thais Gibson]

We find what. We make it mean about ourselves.

[Steve Nestor]

Okay, got it.

[Interviewer/Coach]

The source of really making through. Making it through conflict and in triggering situations.

[Thais Gibson]

And then we question the story.

[Steve Nestor]

I like that.

[Thais Gibson]

And then we. We tell the person what we need. So we're going to get into that second part in a few moments, but I want to just go through a couple others so we get to really practice this. Okay.

[Steve Nestor]

Okay.

[Thais Gibson]

So let's go to another conflict that

[Interviewer/Coach]

you had that you did a great job on that, by the way.

[Thais Gibson]

So let's go to another conflict. So if you'd like, we can do the one where you were really angry. That strong emotional one where, you know, you're. You're separating. She says, I'm gonna sleep upstairs. You want to work on that one? Or is there another one that. That comes up for you? That would be a good, potent one to really feel.

[Steve Nestor]

That would be. I'm trying to think of.

[Thais Gibson]

And you don't have to share. Just so you know, any personal. Like, you can.

[Interviewer/Coach]

We can just go into the details,

[Thais Gibson]

or we can avoid the deals and go into what you made it mean about you.

[Steve Nestor]

That would be a good one. I'm trying to think of another instance that really stands out. Of course, getting divorce papers wasn't very good, but

[Thais Gibson]

that's a good one. You want to do both of those?

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Let's start with the. The upstairs one.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So there's this day. There you are. And you can share as much or

[Thais Gibson]

as little context as you'd like. But the moment that really stood out to me when you got triggered was when she went to sleep upstairs. And in that moment that she goes to sleep upstairs, what emotions do you feel first?

[Steve Nestor]

Oh, it's very hurt and lack of respect, for sure.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

Because she didn't respect our marriage or me. Lack of understanding was a big one. Just not. Where are you at? What's going on in your heart, in your head? Where am I in your plans and thinking.

[Thais Gibson]

Good. So you have a lot of uncertainty in that moment with her, what she's thinking.

[Steve Nestor]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

And when you have that uncertainty.

[Steve Nestor]

Frustration. Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Good. And so let's go to. You feel this. This. I don't know where you're at in your plans and your thinking. And if you don't know where she's at, what do you then make that Mean about you or what are you afraid is going to happen?

[Steve Nestor]

I can't see the future. That's for sure.

[Thais Gibson]

And then if I can't see the future.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Because if you couldn't see the future and you were truly not worried about

[Thais Gibson]

something, it would feel very neutral.

[Interviewer/Coach]

You'd be like, I can't see the future, but it could be good or bad.

[Thais Gibson]

But there's probably an underlying piece of meaning you're giving it.

[Steve Nestor]

Okay.

[Thais Gibson]

Otherwise it wouldn't feel so bad.

[Steve Nestor]

I see.

[Thais Gibson]

So I can't see the future and you might abandon me. I might be alone. I might be unloved.

[Steve Nestor]

Probably the unloved part would be more so, you know, which kind of correlates to the lack of affection from my mom, possibly.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. I would say that would be the. What would. The emotion that comes up the most. Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Perfect. So unloved. You also said misunderstood as being another one. Did you just feel like that was dating back into. Oh, we don't understand each other and so I'm unloved. Or is it. I also feel, like, inherently misunderstood in this situation?

[Steve Nestor]

Well, both of us didn't understand each other.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

You know, we didn't. We weren't connecting, you know, and we were separated. She was spending time in Canada or. And we have a house in Columbia, so. Down there.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

And I was in Florida or. Because she needed her space.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

Which I thought, well, this is doing a good thing for her. But it wasn't there.

[Interviewer/Coach]

You are trying to help and you feel like it's not.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. So we finally get did to get together. I had my hopes that, all right, we're going to be able to, you know, let's work through this. I'm the optimist.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

It's going. It's all going to work out. Let's try to hash this out. And then just that kind of hand in the face. No.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

You know, I'm going upstairs.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

You know, I don't want you with me.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. And do you also feel. Is there a feeling and they're almost being, like, a little bit unwanted as well, or not good enough. Anything there?

[Steve Nestor]

Probably the not good enough. You know, I question myself a lot. You know, what am I or what should I do? What am I? You know?

[Thais Gibson]

And do you feel a little bit trapped at all? Like, in the confusion of things in that moment?

[Steve Nestor]

I don't. Can't think of the trap being the feeling on it, but.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay, good.

[Steve Nestor]

But like I say, the unloved, unwanted.

[Thais Gibson]

Not good enough.

[Steve Nestor]

The not good enough.

[Thais Gibson]

Misunderstood. Those are the big.

[Steve Nestor]

Those would be. Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

And which one for you is the strongest?

[Steve Nestor]

Probably unloved. Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay, beautiful. So let's look at it for a second. So there she is. She goes upstairs and this is what we're gonna. This is what you're gonna get to

[Interviewer/Coach]

practice in conflict in real time later. Okay. So.

[Thais Gibson]

So she goes upstairs and because she goes upstairs, you are unloved. Can you 100 know that that's true?

[Steve Nestor]

No, just what I feel.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. And what happens to you when you think through that lens of like, I am unloved? What happens to you and your body? What. Who do you become? What. What happens?

[Steve Nestor]

Well, I was angry. Very angry. Very sad.

[Thais Gibson]

Hard not to be when you believe that you're spouse doesn't love you.

[Steve Nestor]

Disrespected. You know, we're. We're married. We.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

What do you mean you're gonna.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

Sleep in another bedroom.

[Thais Gibson]

Pain. A lot of pain.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. Pain. Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. No worries. In the moment that you see her go upstairs, if you didn't have this story that your brain goes to that. Okay, I'm unloved and that's why this is happening. How might you see the situation differently?

[Steve Nestor]

Well, you know, maybe she has a reason that she needs to go upstairs and be separated and there something else going on that I'm not aware of.

[Thais Gibson]

Make it curious instead.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

And it might allow you to approach the situation a little bit differently with.

[Steve Nestor]

Right, right, right.

[Thais Gibson]

In a way that allows things to open instead of close. Anger closes us off and curiosity opens us to somebody.

[Steve Nestor]

Okay.

[Thais Gibson]

And vice versa.

[Steve Nestor]

Right, right, right.

[Thais Gibson]

So. So let's look for a moment. So what could be the reason, Knowing what you know now about the situation. She went upstairs and it means she doesn't love you. Could it be something other than that?

[Steve Nestor]

My mind just goes back to what I was feeling at that time.

[Thais Gibson]

That's okay.

[Interviewer/Coach]

That's normal. I'll.

[Thais Gibson]

I'll guide you for a second. Could it be something like, she does love you, but she's also hurt?

[Steve Nestor]

Yes. Yep.

[Thais Gibson]

And maybe if she didn't love you, she wouldn't have even been as hurt to have to go upstairs.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Maybe she'd just be kind of more neutral about the situation or.

[Thais Gibson]

And one that sticks out to me is maybe she was trying to tell you something by going upstairs. Maybe it was her way of almost trying to get your attention.

[Steve Nestor]

Definitely. I think she was making a statement. Yeah. That it's. It's no longer us. I'm.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

Separate. And I definitely got that message.

[Thais Gibson]

And yeah. And maybe it was almost like a cry for help.

[Steve Nestor]

It very well could have been. Yeah. I wouldn't have thought of it at that time, although I. I did. Not knowing what was going on. I did go up stairs, and even though I knocked the door and she just go away, I came and just, like, put my hand on her and pray for a little bit. Then we did our pause app, and then. And that was it. So I did have a good response. A little bit of that. Well, it was not what I wanted,

[Interviewer/Coach]

but a good response.

[Thais Gibson]

I mean, that came out of you.

[Steve Nestor]

Right? Right.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is beautiful.

[Steve Nestor]

But.

[Interviewer/Coach]

But it's hard.

[Thais Gibson]

It's excruciating when you're sitting there believing she doesn't love me.

[Steve Nestor]

Right.

[Thais Gibson]

And that's why this is happening.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. So not understanding. Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. And so what else do you see in terms of that moment or that experience that Lisa. How she does love you?

[Steve Nestor]

Well, that she even stopped by to see me in North Carolina on the way to Canada.

[Thais Gibson]

Gosh.

[Interviewer/Coach]

It's such a fearful, avoidant thing, too, to. To stop by and then to sleep upstairs to make a statement. It's a very common, fearful, avoidant way

[Thais Gibson]

of communicating where they don't know how to communicate that well sometimes, but they hurt. So they want you to see their pain without having to say it.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And so it's a common theme for.

[Steve Nestor]

It makes sense.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Do you see that in the history of your relationship?

[Steve Nestor]

Sometimes.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And so she's trying to reach you

[Thais Gibson]

but doesn't know how.

[Steve Nestor]

Right.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And you're trying to reach her and don't know how.

[Steve Nestor]

Exactly. That's why we're here. No.

[Interviewer/Coach]

There you go.

[Steve Nestor]

Some help.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And so is there a time there that you see that she actually does

[Steve Nestor]

love you at that time?

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. Which is hard to look for, but let's look.

[Steve Nestor]

That just, like, stands out in my brain, so. In my emotions, so overpowering everything else. So at that time, you're saying within

[Thais Gibson]

that time, you can go through.

[Steve Nestor]

We actually. She was good to go visit my mom. And, you know, she's kind of a bright shining star with my mom and in midst of her dementia and kind of uplifting her a little bit. And so.

[Thais Gibson]

That's a really big one.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. So that was.

[Thais Gibson]

So there she is. And she is hurt and going through

[Interviewer/Coach]

her own pain, some of it being

[Thais Gibson]

through her own childhood and stories. She comes by. She sleeps upstairs because she feels so distant and she's hurting. And yet she loves you enough to

[Interviewer/Coach]

still show up through her own pain

[Thais Gibson]

for your mom and to Be there

[Interviewer/Coach]

and to respect and love for you

[Thais Gibson]

and your family through doing that. Is that fair?

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. It's a beautiful one. And if you have a moment in the future where you feel unloved, what do you need?

[Steve Nestor]

I would need to share that feeling with her that, you know how I'm feeling.

[Thais Gibson]

Because if you don't, what happens?

[Steve Nestor]

That she's not going to know, for one thing. And then she'll go into her kind

[Interviewer/Coach]

of own stories, her own versions of these.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

And then where do you go eventually? Where do you go eventually?

[Steve Nestor]

If I stay in this chair.

[Thais Gibson]

Oh, you go away.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. Back to the same. Yeah, yeah. Same cycle. Yes, exactly.

[Thais Gibson]

And it's very difficult in the long run to out will yourself out of these cycles. It's hard. They come back. And they come back because it's a response to that narrative first. And so let's go back to that idea that you're sitting there and you're going. You see her go upstairs, and what you did was beautiful for her. You tried to comfort her and still find connection. But what could you have said instead, knowing what you know in this moment?

[Steve Nestor]

Well, I. I guess I could say, you know, I don't understand why you're doing this. I probably did say that, you know, if this is something you feel you need to do, then, you know, let's do that. You. And then let's talk about it in the morning.

[Thais Gibson]

Good. These are all beautiful. Like, say the right things. But where you're gonna have a huge breakthrough in your marriage is through saying what's going on inside of you.

[Steve Nestor]

Okay.

[Thais Gibson]

She wants that. Any person in a relationship with a

[Interviewer/Coach]

dismissive, avoidant, or even dismissive, avoidant edges,

[Thais Gibson]

they yearn for that. That feels like vulnerability. That feels like love and connection.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

So try it on a different way for a second. Let's try saying how you're feeling in that moment.

[Steve Nestor]

Gotcha. Gotcha. So, you know, Lisa, you going upstairs like this really makes me feel unloved. Makes me feel that you don't respect me. You don't. That we're done, we're separated.

[Thais Gibson]

And did you want that in that moment?

[Steve Nestor]

No.

[Thais Gibson]

And so you might even say, and I really don't want that.

[Steve Nestor]

Ooh, I like that.

[Thais Gibson]

And you might even say, I don't understand what's going on here, but I really want to.

[Steve Nestor]

Mm.

[Thais Gibson]

But until you. You can anchor into yourself first.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

You can do these things, which are good. Like, you can give the compliment when she gives you other directions. You can. You can. She says let's go this way.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And you say, oh, that's a nice thing. And you have this nice moment where

[Thais Gibson]

you compliment her, but it's not vulnerability from your end. And so it's only a little part of the equation. You're kind of managing her feelings, and that's nice and it's a good step. But real intimacy, like emotional intimacy, connection, all the things that you didn't necessarily get a lot of in childhood and that she's yearning for as an adult, are those real things about what comes up for you? Okay.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

So. So let's try it again. So, so.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So you're doing amazing. You're doing amazing.

[Thais Gibson]

So let's go back to the car for a second. Okay. So, because we worked through the story part a little bit, seeing how you

[Interviewer/Coach]

aren't unloved or you aren't disrespected, and

[Thais Gibson]

you can work through some of that yourself, but I also want you to get in the habit of saying what you need.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay. So in that dynamic with the car, would it be fair to say something like, hey, you know, I need to know that you respect me. Sometimes I could use a little bit of reassurance that you respect me. Would that be something that you could see yourself saying?

[Steve Nestor]

Or is that a good pull over the side of the road and say, I love you, but when you tell me this, it makes me feel disrespected. And so let's just talk about it for a minute and so we can go on our way and free up that feelings.

[Thais Gibson]

And now that was the perfect answer. And now there's a two way connection, which is intimacy. And you can spend a lot of time focusing on the marriage of how to do the right thing, but the right thing's gonna be 25% of what needs to happen. The real thing needs to be you opening up your inner world to her too.

[Steve Nestor]

Wow.

[Thais Gibson]

And so that happened.

[Interviewer/Coach]

That happens through.

[Thais Gibson]

Through you getting into these parts and saying these things and sharing. And so, hey, can we talk about this is what I'm feeling. That's what, like, she would be yearning for. And now we have intimacy. Now we have real connection.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Okay.

[Thais Gibson]

It's not just you partially coming from your end or you partially trying to

[Interviewer/Coach]

do the right nice thing.

[Thais Gibson]

It's full. Here's who I am. And now who I am can really bond with who you are too. You can see in this part of the episode how much time Steve has spent showing up and trying to pour into the work in his marriage. And yet how often Steve has missed this one important point of actually being vulnerable about his own internal world and feelings. And interestingly, because Steve is married to a fearful avoidant who often yearns for depth and yearns for transparency in context and deeply wants to know their partner's inner world, the fact that that part is missing is going to be a massive block to emotional intimacy in the relationship. And so I start to encourage Steve here to really open up about what he's feeling and to reframe what he's needing so that he can foster connection both ways. Now, we go through an actual process here, and if you want to follow along at home, because you are also struggling to find what you're feeling or what you're needing and what meaning you are giving to situations, you can actually refer to a worksheet we have linked down below from our conflict resolution course that helps you actually surface the meaning you are giving to things and being able to work through it and communicate around it so you can reach a fulfillment in a conversation where you finally feel seen, heard, and understood and deeply know one another's needs.

[Steve Nestor]

Am I going to delve into those emotions when I don't really know how to.

[Thais Gibson]

Excellent question. It's going through what we did. Okay? So now we're gonna do it together. And I want you to try to. And I'll give you, like, a sheet for this after so you can practice it and everything.

[Interviewer/Coach]

You don't have memorize it all in this moment.

[Thais Gibson]

But. But I want you to think of another conflict, and I want you to notice it's the same thing. Like the laundry on the floor. It's that we make it mean something. Okay. Usually that meaning is from our past. It's not just our present.

[Steve Nestor]

Right.

[Thais Gibson]

So we make it mean, oh, I'm disrespected, for example. Okay. And then we react to our own story. So I think my wife doesn't respect me.

[Interviewer/Coach]

I hold the steering wheel tight, and

[Thais Gibson]

I shut down a little bit inside. And I never give the opportunity for intimacy.

[Steve Nestor]

Right.

[Thais Gibson]

Because I don't tell her, hey, this is what came up for me. And now I'm just drifting away.

[Steve Nestor]

Right?

[Thais Gibson]

Right. I built an invisible wall. Instead of opening my wall up. Right. Or in this moment, I feel unloved. And you do this nice thing, a beautiful thing, a powerful thing, by the way, it's not easy to do. You rub her back and you say, let's do the pause app. And you're. You're trying to connect. But if you had gone in and said, hey, I feel like I Don't understand. But I really want to. And right now I'm feeling unloved and I want this to work like it would completely change the dynamic of the conflict because you're showing yourself. So you have to find what you make the thing mean and then share it.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So we'll do one more.

[Thais Gibson]

So what's another time there was an argument or a challenge?

[Steve Nestor]

Well, challenge of my priorities with my family versus my priorities with her.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

You know, I feel I need to be there for my mom and my brother, helping them out. And she feels abandoned because I'm busy

[Thais Gibson]

and have a lot going on. Maybe.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. So that's, it's better now because she's got 24 hour care now in her house. So that's why I think we're able to, you know, let's just do the two months and see how that goes. And, and, but so my priorities have changed. So back to your question though. So in our time in North Carolina, we were staying at an old farmhouse which has been in the family for 120 years.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

And so not the greatest shape, you know, a little dirty. Nobody was in it.

[Thais Gibson]

Big history.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. Yeah. So it was special for me because I, you know, grew up summers there.

[Thais Gibson]

That's nice.

[Steve Nestor]

But not so special for her.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

So again, it was like she's doing this for me, for us.

[Thais Gibson]

Yes.

[Steve Nestor]

But I'm not prioritizing her and recognizing what the sacrifice she's making.

[Thais Gibson]

Yes.

[Steve Nestor]

Because her mom was 99 and we took care of her mom in our house for a while. So I'm thinking, well, she understands this. But we never had the really good discussions about it, which will be the

[Thais Gibson]

make or break every time. And I don't mean for the relationship per se, but make or break as to how a situation unfolds, if there's something challenging, it's always time for a discussion. Because you get ahead of things. Whatever we don't deal with ahead of time, we end up having to deal

[Interviewer/Coach]

with reactively and in the suffering.

[Thais Gibson]

And so there's this assumption like, oh, she's gonna understand. But just like you have this, this story that comes up that maybe I'm

[Interviewer/Coach]

not good enough when I'm being criticized

[Thais Gibson]

or I'm unloved or these types of things. You know, she'll have her own stories.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Right. You can tell her. One of the stories is the abandoned story.

[Thais Gibson]

Right. So then we feed into our stories and when we have our stories come up, we become the less best version of ourselves. Right. We go into coping from the story. And then we can't see the other person. Right.

[Steve Nestor]

Coping for sure.

[Thais Gibson]

Exactly. And so was there a moment in the farmhouse where you felt frustrated at a particular moment of conflict?

[Steve Nestor]

At least I have some AFIB problems. So one. One of those summers she had some afib, and we spent a lot of time going down the mountain to get medical care and so forth and go to medication, did what we needed to do. But then when she would get back, she'd still have episodes of it. And so one time for her when she was having afib, you know, I'm doing. I'm pharmacist, so, you know, take your aspirin, you know, you know, check your heart rate or whatever. And she said, well, you go ahead and go. I'll be all right. And she felt really abounded by me that I left.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

And so. But I never knew that because she didn't share it with me.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

So that's something that's came up Excellent. Since then.

[Thais Gibson]

That's a perfect one. So. And we're going to do both sides. You can.

[Interviewer/Coach]

We're going to see her, too. It's going to be fun.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

Or we could do. When I didn't bring my passport with me.

[Interviewer/Coach]

We might do that one, too.

[Steve Nestor]

Did you.

[Interviewer/Coach]

We'll see how much time we have here. But let's. Let's look at.

[Thais Gibson]

Let's look at that first one. So it gets brought up. And that's your moment of conflict. So we'll drop into that moment that it gets brought up you left me. And like, how could you do that? And in that moment. Okay, what do you feel when she said.

[Steve Nestor]

When she says that.

[Thais Gibson]

Yes.

[Steve Nestor]

I rationalize.

[Thais Gibson]

And what did you feel? Did you feel confused first?

[Steve Nestor]

No. Why didn't you tell me? Why. Why didn't you share that with me at that time?

[Thais Gibson]

Yes.

[Steve Nestor]

And really, tell me what you felt instead of telling me. It's okay. You couldn't go.

[Thais Gibson]

Exactly. And then when she doesn't tell you, and what do you make that mean about you in that moment? So she doesn't tell you, and you're like, why didn't you tell me? And she doesn't tell you, and that means what to you?

[Steve Nestor]

That she doesn't care that much about me and then she's willing to share her real feelings.

[Thais Gibson]

So she doesn't care about me enough to share her real feelings.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. And. And so there's probably a feeling of almost like betrayal there or this unloved again, maybe I'm not cared about. And so let's Practice just communicating that for a second. So. So, you know, she shares her part, and then you come to your part, and you might say,

[Steve Nestor]

tell me how you really feel.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Tell me how you really feel. Yeah, I'd like to know how you really feel next time.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah, but what about your intimacy piece? Your. Your connecting piece?

[Steve Nestor]

So, okay, hey, when I learn words, you mean not at that moment, when

[Thais Gibson]

you're talking through it. In that moment. So. So here you are, and you realize that she didn't tell you, and you're trying to talk through this.

[Steve Nestor]

Oh, so after the fact.

[Thais Gibson]

Exactly. And so you might say, hey, when you don't tell me things, what comes up for me is what.

[Steve Nestor]

Right. Okay. So. So, Lisa, I know this is a big thing for you. You felt abandoned in this moment, and I can understand that now because you're sharing, we're communicating better, and you're telling me how you really felt at the time, and I.

[Thais Gibson]

You're amazing.

[Interviewer/Coach]

You're doing something.

[Thais Gibson]

And for me, when. When you don't tell me things, that actually hurts me. I feel like I'm not cared about. Yeah, I feel like you don't care enough about the relationship to share things with me, and that hurts me too. I want you to share.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

And when you say that, she's gonna sit there and she's gonna feel like, oh, my goodness, you feel not cared about. When I don't tell you things, you really. You really want me to tell you things. It's gonna encourage her to communicate. But when she just feels abandoned and thinks you don't care, she's probably sitting

[Interviewer/Coach]

there thinking the exact same story that you're thinking. Yeah, she's thinking, he doesn't care about me. You're thinking, she doesn't care about me.

[Thais Gibson]

And until you share your inner worlds, you have all the excuses in the world to keep putting your walls up.

[Steve Nestor]

And that's what we want to do, and we want to do that.

[Thais Gibson]

And she'll go back to, like, he doesn't care, so I'm not gonna share. But if she heard you say, I feel really hurt when. When you don't share things, I. I feel like you don't care about me. When you don't tell me things and I want you to, she sees, like, what you're actually feeling and that you need her to share.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

And now she's like, the next time she goes to not share, she's like, oh, no, no. Steve feels not cared about if I don't share. He truly wants me to share. And on the entire trajectory of that. That thing that could repeat itself changes.

[Steve Nestor]

Exactly.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Do you see?

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So this will be like a practice

[Thais Gibson]

for you, right, to sit down and to go through, like, okay, well, what comes up for me? What do I make it mean about me and what do I need? And constantly going to her with that. Because now you offer up actual intimacy and a two way connection.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. Wow. Good stuff. Wow.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay, so.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So let's do one last one for her flip side. I just want.

[Thais Gibson]

We'll see full circle.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Cause I. I think you're gonna know hers really well. Cause you seem to be doing a great job of working on her side

[Thais Gibson]

and sort of being there for what

[Interviewer/Coach]

she needs and what she's feeling. But your work is gonna be to

[Thais Gibson]

open up your side of things.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Oh, I know, but you can see it. So in that moment when she says, oh, leave, and she doesn't tell you to stay. Okay. What do you think her story was there.

[Steve Nestor]

He's. He's gonna leave.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah. Anyway.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

So why should I share my feelings? Because he's gonna leave and go do his thing.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah.

[Steve Nestor]

And I'll just be here by myself. Abandoned by myself.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. And notice that she. When she gets frustrated or she walls off, then she's reacting less to Steve as Steve is, because you're not showing who Steve is. And she's reacting just like you have them to her story of Steve.

[Steve Nestor]

Right.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Not based on what Steve would do,

[Thais Gibson]

but based on all of her previous childhood wounds herself. And so she sees you through the lens of those wounds, and she doesn't even get a chance to see you outside of the lens of those wounds until you show who you are. So it's the remedy. Right. She'll just keep.

[Interviewer/Coach]

It's easy to keep projecting the story

[Thais Gibson]

until we share otherwise.

[Steve Nestor]

Exactly.

[Thais Gibson]

And now she can see you as you.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And all the love that you give

[Thais Gibson]

and all of the consistency and the

[Interviewer/Coach]

ways you've shown up and all that

[Thais Gibson]

you are when you actually share what's going on inside of your inner world too.

[Steve Nestor]

Yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

Yeah. So she feels abandoned, and then she

[Interviewer/Coach]

puts her walls up, and then you

[Thais Gibson]

can see how this becomes a whole cycle.

[Steve Nestor]

Oh, yeah.

[Thais Gibson]

And then you say, okay, she needs

[Interviewer/Coach]

space, so then I need to give her the space. And then you probably feel hurt knowing later that she didn't tell you.

[Thais Gibson]

And then maybe you want to drift too.

[Interviewer/Coach]

And now we have two drifters when.

[Thais Gibson]

When the stories get in the middle.

[Steve Nestor]

Right.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay, so the. The big difference here is the difference between. Because you're Doing a lot of things. Right? Right. You've got some good things that you were doing already. You're trying to. You know, you said this beautiful thing in the car.

[Steve Nestor]

Knew it. How?

[Interviewer/Coach]

But you're. But you're saying this moment in the car.

[Thais Gibson]

Okay. I complimented her when she wanted to give directions, or I pat her on the back and said, let us do the pause app. And you are doing things. You've got a lot of humility to try anyways. Right. But the thing that's still missing all of those things is you opening up your world and sharing what you're feeling. So now she gets the opportunity to

[Interviewer/Coach]

see you outside of her stories of you.

[Thais Gibson]

And now you get the opportunity to have a two way street for actual emotional intimacy and connection, which she's yearning for because you've actually shared your inner world. So it's gonna take practice, basically, in every conflict. That should be the goal.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So this will be the big theme to practice.

[Thais Gibson]

And, you know, notice that we all kind of go through life like this.

[Interviewer/Coach]

We see each other through our stories,

[Thais Gibson]

and it puts everybody at the mercy of everybody's conditioning. Because if I just. If I have a lot of trauma, then I'm gonna project a lot of things onto you. Right. Cause I see you through the lens of all the times I felt abandoned

[Interviewer/Coach]

or unloved or trapped or betrayed or whatever it might be.

[Thais Gibson]

And the only way that somebody can get past that with me is, you

[Interviewer/Coach]

know, it's obviously part of my work to do, to work through and rewire those stories.

[Thais Gibson]

But it's also the work in a relationship, in a partnership together, to say, hey, this is what comes up for me, and I need to see that you do love me, or I need

[Interviewer/Coach]

some reassurance that you do respect me, or I need some.

[Thais Gibson]

Some connection here or some understanding. Right. And so when we speak into whatever the opposite of that story is and we request those things.

[Steve Nestor]

The opposite of the story.

[Thais Gibson]

Exactly. That's what we almost always need. Yeah. Okay. So when you feel misunderstanding between you and Lisa when she goes upstairs, what do you need? Understanding.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Right, Right. Or when you feel unloved, you might need a little bit of reassurance that

[Thais Gibson]

she does love or that she does care, or you feel disrespected, you're like, hey, this is what's coming up for me. I need to know that we respect each other. Can we hash it out?

[Steve Nestor]

Right. Because she's never gonna know if I don't share with her. And I'm not gonna know if she doesn't share with me, obviously. So.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Yeah, exactly.

[Thais Gibson]

So in summary, first of all, you've

[Interviewer/Coach]

done an amazing job. You've done an amazing job. We went through so many. Thank you. We went through so many things, and

[Thais Gibson]

it's a new skill. Right. So you're not gonna like, okay, I'm gonna go out into the world and

[Interviewer/Coach]

start doing it every. You know, perfectly the next time something comes up. But what I'll give for you to

[Thais Gibson]

take home is a sheet, and it'll go through every time I'm in a conflict. What am I making it mean about myself? And you'll actually see a list of core wounds that are very frequent in people.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So you'll be able to. Oh, it's that one. You'll know.

[Thais Gibson]

And then you'll be able to go into, okay, well, what do I need? And how can I can I communicate this? And there will be steps for identifying your need and then framing it properly so you can say, this is what's coming up for me. And that's going to be that path to really building that sense of deeper connection and emotional intimacy. And I don't know if you're up

[Interviewer/Coach]

for any homework, but there's also a

[Thais Gibson]

little bit of tool that you and Lisa can actually work on together. Maybe we'll talk about it in the couple session as a tool, but it helps you rewire these old stories, too.

[Steve Nestor]

That's what I need. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Coach]

You're not born with them. Right.

[Thais Gibson]

So they get conditioned into us, and through repetition and emotion really firing and wiring over time, we can recondition them. We can change the way we're seeing these things so we don't perceive this

[Interviewer/Coach]

way and then close down or whatever.

[Thais Gibson]

Our version of the coping mechanism would be. Right. For some people, they tell the story that they're abandoned and they cling. For other people, they tell the story

[Interviewer/Coach]

they're abandoned, and they pull away.

[Thais Gibson]

And, you know, everybody copes differently. But it will actually also change the trajectory of that coping mechanism by rewiring the wound first.

[Interviewer/Coach]

So I'll give you one of those

[Thais Gibson]

to take home as well. But we may cover that a little bit.

[Steve Nestor]

The takeaway is that. In the vulnerability that can happen is in the midst of conflict, there is that opportunity to really connect with each other and understand each other more, which is what we want to do. We want to understand each other and love each other more. And so until we break through some of those barriers that are set up from wherever, whatever, our childhood or whatever, then that's, you know, I'm looking forward to practicing what we've learned and what we're going to learn.

[Interviewer/Coach]

Well, thank you so much. Thank you for doing this with me. You were just vulnerable and amazing and did such a fantastic job.

[Steve Nestor]

Not too bad for a guy doesn't share his emotions.

[Interviewer/Coach]

He's amazing.

[Steve Nestor]

You're good at bringing him out.

[Interviewer/Coach]

You did a phenomenal job of sharing. Thank you for being here today.

[Thais Gibson]

Stay tuned for Lisa and Steve's story together so you can watch them coming through the other side of this work.