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Thais Gibson
And avoidants grew up with a lot of like stability in childhood for the most part, like pretty predictable parents that are nice but a lot of times they don't get attunement.
Steve Nestor
Don't get what?
Thais Gibson
Attunement, which means like having a parent who's present, who's emotionally available to you, who if you cry or get upset, they're like, honey, what's wrong? Are you okay? And tries to soothe you. And so when you don't get that, you don't know how to give that because it's an unknown. And then when you don't get that, because children are biologically wired for attunement, they very much need a. Human beings deeply need attunement, then what happens is you learn, okay, well, this part of me that needs this, it's not working.
Interviewer/Coach
Even though I need it, it keeps getting rejected.
Thais Gibson
It's not here and it's missing. And so you cope in your childhood by rejecting that part of yourself that needs emotional connection, that needs vulnerability and presence or attunement and you're like, oh, I'm just going to reject this part of myself, become independent, do my own thing, get really mental and intellectual, kind of repress this feeling part of myself to cope.
Steve Nestor
You're sounding like me.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Welcome to Breakthrough with Thais Gibson. You're going to see me sit down with Steve, who once was very dismissive,
Interviewer/Coach
avoidant and who's done some work to
Thais Gibson
become a little bit more securely attached. But we're going to dive into opening up his communication, his vulnerability and understanding why he does what he does in relationships and how this really applies to his relationship with Lisa. So let me introduce you to Steve.
Steve Nestor
Hi, I'm Steve Nestor and glad to be here in Toronto, Canada. I'm American, proud to be American, as they say. But anyway, born in North Carolina, grew up in Ohio and then moved to Florida. Been there for over 40 years in Florida and head back to North Carolina quite a bit. I have a 96 year old mom there that me and my brother helped take care of. So. But it's good to be in Toronto and I appreciate the opportunity to be here today and learn a little bit more about myself and maybe some of the issues that I might have and especially with conflict avoidance. I guess that's something that's, I never knew but it's kind of followed me around and it's affected my relationships. So I appreciate you having me here today.
Interviewer/Coach
Thank you. That was a beautiful introduction and thanks for being here. Excited to chat.
Thais Gibson
So I would Love to just start by hearing a little bit about your backstory.
Interviewer/Coach
So your sort of upbringing, your childhood,
Thais Gibson
just any of the outstanding themes that you. You see looking back on. On your life growing up.
Steve Nestor
Okay. Well, growing. Growing up in Ohio, I. My parents were rather strict, did not have a lot of money, so I never knew we were poor, but we probably were. But the, you know, if I did what I was told and did my chores, then everything worked out pretty good. And. But if I was kind of a honorary young boy, as, you know, young boys tend to be. So anyway, I would get away with whatever I could get away with. And I followed my older brother, who's a year and a half older, Dave, and so he would kind of show me the, you know, you can get away with this. You know, this is, you know, this is how you do it. You know, sneak out the bedroom window and go see the girl down the street sort of thing. So that. So I rebelled.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
In my childhood. Not my childhood so much. Well, more as a teen.
Thais Gibson
And. And when you look back through some of the patterns that you saw in previous relationships or over the course of your life, was there any sort of repeating theme that you see as being a challenge?
Steve Nestor
Good question. I would say I would. I didn't know at the time, but I wouldn't have arguments with my girlfriends and did not really have a lot of serious girlfriends or relationships until Probably I was 28 when I was in Florida.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
And then got married at that time. She's passed away, but I'm sorry. She would, she would get mad at me and she'd go out in the garage with a hammer and. And pound on the workbench.
Thais Gibson
Oh, my God.
Steve Nestor
And to take out her frustrations because I probably wasn't responding and understanding, Communicating.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
I could always be a better communicator. So that was probably the one thing that I think about after she passed is, you know, I wished I'd been a better communicator. And so still working on that. So any help you can get.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah, we're going to dive into it.
Thais Gibson
Absolutely.
Interviewer/Coach
But it's beautiful. I just want to honor that you're doing the work. Right. Like, you're in it, you're here, you're. You're showing up. So I think that's really powerful. And would you say that you saw
Thais Gibson
that same sort of theme emerge in your marriage with Lisa as well?
Steve Nestor
I thought it wouldn't, and it probably didn't initially, but then later on, I think both of us tend to be conflict avoiders. And so we wouldn't discuss. She wouldn't share her feelings about, you know, something that had come up. Yeah. So I'm supposed to know this, you know.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. And you're actually not supposed to know.
Interviewer/Coach
Right. Like, the reality is that unless somebody's
Thais Gibson
sharing, you can't really know what's going on. And so it's funny because sometimes when you take two people and they both avoid conflict a little bit and they sort of internalize things, it's just each time there's a conflict that's avoided, you build an invisible wall between yourself and that person. And you don't mean to, but conflict, it exists, and then it doesn't go anywhere.
Interviewer/Coach
It just. It just goes between you.
Thais Gibson
So somebody might think, okay, we're going
Interviewer/Coach
to avoid the conflict.
Thais Gibson
We're not going to talk. But then it's just carried as an internal conflict instead of externalized and worked through in the relationship.
Steve Nestor
Okay.
Thais Gibson
And so when you externalize conflict and you hash it out and you get
Interviewer/Coach
to the roots of it and you talk it through.
Thais Gibson
Well, now we transmuted it into something productive.
Steve Nestor
Right.
Thais Gibson
Okay. But if you don't say anything and you stuff it down, you just sort
Interviewer/Coach
of get stored as an assumption about the other person and an assumption about
Thais Gibson
maybe how they feel about you, and then we just carry it around. So that's why working through conflict is so powerful and important.
Steve Nestor
Yep. That makes sense that I relate to that in that some of the work that I did on myself after our separation was recognizing that the things that I was critical about her were actually things that I was about myself. I was critical of myself, but I wouldn't call myself out, but I would, in my head, be critical. Why is she doing this? I can't believe she's doing this. I wouldn't say it to her. I would just bite my tongue and keep on going.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Interviewer/Coach
And that's the way it always is. We're always the most critical about things
Thais Gibson
we're already doing, at least to ourselves.
Interviewer/Coach
But we'll get into that. We'll talk about the criticisms in general.
Thais Gibson
So if we were to get into some of your patterns.
Interviewer/Coach
So before we started recording, we talked
Thais Gibson
about how you had recently gone through the attachment assessment. Mostly secure, but about 20% avoidant.
Interviewer/Coach
And so we'll work through some of
Thais Gibson
those themes here today.
Interviewer/Coach
And you strike me as somebody who's really, you know, been into the work and doing the work and really shows
Thais Gibson
up with a whole heart and is
Interviewer/Coach
very forgiving and caring and heard a lot of nice things.
Thais Gibson
From, from Lisa. And there's also these little repeat patterns,
Interviewer/Coach
right, that might be in there a little bit.
Thais Gibson
So I'd love to start by just looking at. If you had to sort of summarize your themes with Lisa in different conflicts, would it be that there's a frustration, you feel tension, you notice attention, both of you retreat and take space, or both of you throw a passive aggressive comment out, or you just distance. Like if you had to describe when a conflict happens, what happens from both of your ends in your eyes,
Steve Nestor
probably dismiss and then go our separate ways, you know. So I think that's led to a independence somewhat in that, you know, all right, I'll go do my thing, I'll go do my photography or, you know, work on the computer and she'll go watch a Netflix or something like that. And then, you know, I'm a very optimistic person. So I'm thinking, you know, oh, it's, it's, it's this cause or something. You know, we had, you know, we move, we're doing work in the house. We're, you know, different things. So I'm thinking, well, once this is all over, it's going to all get better.
Thais Gibson
Oh, wow.
Steve Nestor
So it's, you know, it's all going to be better.
Thais Gibson
Well, I have to tell you something. If you didn't know this already, then, because this is really important about conflict and we'll get into this specifically, but one of the most important things about conflict is that it's not really the objective information. So in reality, you can absolutely be stressed by external things.
Interviewer/Coach
Right?
Thais Gibson
It's stressful to move. It puts external pressure. It's stressful to have a bad night's
Interviewer/Coach
sleep or a bunch of them in a row. You know, there's these things that are
Thais Gibson
objectively there, but when a conflict actually bothers us out of all the things that could bother us at any given time, it's not really the objective thing alone. It's much more the subjective meaning that we give to things. So I always tell this story and I'll tell this to you and we'll actually get into your versions of it.
Interviewer/Coach
But I remember working years and years ago, like 13 years ago probably, and
Thais Gibson
it was the first year or so that I was working with couples couple, they came in to talk about a conflict they were having and it was a husband and wife. And the wife was talking about how she's upset that her husband always leaves the clothes on the floor. And as she was telling it, her hands started shaking. And I was very surprised that her
Interviewer/Coach
hands were shaking over the clothes on the floor.
Thais Gibson
And then I looked at her husband, and he started really like, you know,
Interviewer/Coach
he looked like a little kid. He kind of coward like a little kid.
Thais Gibson
And his body language changed. And I asked her, I said, well, what do you make it mean about you when you see the clothing on the floor? And she said, well, I make it mean that I'm disrespected because I try all the time to ask him to pick up his clothes, and he just. He must not respect me. My own husband doesn't respect me. And I looked at him and I said, okay, well, what do you make it mean when she gets upset? And he said, I work my butt off. I try to do a whole bunch of chores around the house. I try so hard, and she doesn't see how much effort I put in. And I just feel like she doesn't love me. And so you have these two people, and they're talking about being disrespected and unloved, but they try to solve for it by talking about the clothes on the floor. And so what ends up happening is it's not really the clothes on the floor. Okay.
Interviewer/Coach
You know, you don't want the clothes on the floor, it's fine.
Thais Gibson
But that's not the root of what's happening in the conflict. And so when we get trapped in that frame of thinking, then we go our whole lives never properly resolving things because we're not talking about what we make it mean. And so in that context, what we did is then I asked her husband, I said, okay, well, do you respect her? And she said, of course. He said, of course I respect her. I respect this and this, and lists all these things that he respects and admires and sees in her.
Interviewer/Coach
And of course, now she's feeling differently.
Thais Gibson
And I asked her, I said, well, do you love your husband? Do you see all the things he does do?
Interviewer/Coach
And she names them and says all these things she.
Thais Gibson
She loves. And now all of a sudden, they've solved the real problem instead of just trying to talk about the clothes. And it's part of why, you see in those moments that she. She may have him pick up the clothes after she's angry, she's still mad, right?
Interviewer/Coach
She's like, you picked up the clothes,
Thais Gibson
but it didn't solve the real problem.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Interviewer/Coach
So I want to use that as sort of a jumping off ground and
Thais Gibson
go into some of the conflicts so that you can see what's coming up. Because sometimes when somebody's a little bit More avoidant. One of the risks, even when you start doing the work, is that avoidance are very good, or people with even a little bit of avoidance in there. They're very good at letting things roll off their shoulders and sort of a
Interviewer/Coach
special skill that they tend to have and compartmentalizing at times as well.
Thais Gibson
And sometimes you'll then even get into a relationship with somebody. And especially because Lisa's coming through. Working on being fearful avoidant. One of the challenges you have to watch out for is that Lisa might start communicating a lot and sharing a lot and finally speaking her needs. And that's really good and really healthy, but you have to match it. And you may fall into this trap of like, oh, I'm fine. I'm always fine. So I'll just cater to what she needs. But in turn, there will actually be things you're feeling too, just like the disrespected or unloved that do exist beneath the surface. And even if they only bother you with three out of ten each time, and hers are an eight or a nine, and she's got more, you know, those things come from earlier childhood wounds. Right. So the disrespected woman in that situation, she had a huge wound, feeling disrespected by her older brothers and father growing up.
Interviewer/Coach
The unloved that I mentioned, he who
Thais Gibson
felt unloved, he had a huge wound around his mother. Right? So the bigger the wounds are, the more we'll feel them as adults. Fearful avoidance generally have a little bit more wounding than the dismissive avoidance. So hers will be stronger. So she'll bring them up more, but you'll still have little twos, threes, fours out of tens of irritation. And you have to make sure you're communicating and working through yours too.
Steve Nestor
That's a good point. I can think of one right off is like, we're driving. If I'm driving.
Thais Gibson
Yes.
Steve Nestor
And then she would say, she would tell me to go this way. I'm like, I know which way to go, but I wouldn't say it. I would just, you know, like, you know, so. So sometimes I just, like, go that way. At other times, like, I'm going my way,
Interviewer/Coach
and you go right into action.
Thais Gibson
So.
Interviewer/Coach
So let's just start there. We'll start with.
Thais Gibson
We'll.
Interviewer/Coach
We'll pick through a few conflicts, and
Thais Gibson
I want to just. I want to first show you the thread and then we'll work through the conflict. Okay, so let's pick that time that
Interviewer/Coach
you were driving when, when was a recent time where she said, Go that
Thais Gibson
way, go that way.
Steve Nestor
Even driving a up to Canada from. From North Carolina, there was some times where she would say, you know, go this way. And I didn't say anything. Like, I think more now I tend to, like, take her advice a little better than when we were butting heads more. And so now maybe it's to satiate her a little bit and to give her respect that her advice is valuable and I should respond by following her advice.
Thais Gibson
Yes.
Steve Nestor
So I've had those thoughts, and I've done that a couple of times. But then I think back to a couple years ago, near the end of our marriage, where we're driving somewhere and she's telling me to go this way, and I just bite my tongue. Or I would sometimes say something. I'm going to go this way. I know where I'm going, sort of thing. Yeah.
Thais Gibson
And it's so interesting because you're trying to now, which is beautiful. It's. It's a good step. You're trying to now because you used to be.
Interviewer/Coach
A couple years ago, you said, more like, I'm going this way and do what you wanted to do.
Thais Gibson
And I see you trying to be flexible with her and make sure her.
Interviewer/Coach
Her advice feels valued and.
Thais Gibson
And compromise, and those are all beautiful things, but they'll still feel a tiny bit force, like I'm biting my tongue.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Unless you find the deeper meaning you're giving to it.
Steve Nestor
Okay.
Interviewer/Coach
Okay. Do you see what I mean?
Steve Nestor
All right, I got you.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah. So. Because what happens is, you can imagine,
Thais Gibson
like, it's sort of like that idea that the husband goes and he picks
Interviewer/Coach
up the clothes, but the wife doesn't feel any better because she still is hearing the story that she's disrespected, or
Thais Gibson
then she could suddenly be a little nicer. Okay, thank you for picking up the clothes. But the husband still feels unloved, so I want to just peel into that a little bit so it doesn't have to feel like you're out willing or biting your tongue. In the moment where she says, go this way, go this way. If you have one in your mind
Steve Nestor
that's specific recently or before.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah, you can pick one more recent. We'll pick the one from driving back from North Carolina, so.
Steve Nestor
So more recent. I think I actually did respond, and I don't know if it was like holy spirit moment or whatever it was, but it was like, I complimented her on giving me this direction.
Thais Gibson
That's beautiful.
Steve Nestor
So I kind of, you know, thanked her, like, oh, that's a good Idea sort of thing.
Thais Gibson
Good for you.
Steve Nestor
And that's beautiful. Did seem to. I didn't have that biting my tongue sort of thing.
Interviewer/Coach
Good.
Thais Gibson
Okay. That's beautiful.
Steve Nestor
So that's.
Thais Gibson
And was there a moment of frustration before you complimented her?
Steve Nestor
Yeah, just that. Just that quick moment. Memory of, you know, oh, this is coming again sort of thing.
Interviewer/Coach
So, you know, we've stayed there. Yeah. And sorry to interrupt you.
Thais Gibson
I'm going to just take you through
Interviewer/Coach
a little bit of a process here first. So in that moment, she does that,
Thais Gibson
and you had a beautiful response to it, which is wonderful. But just prior to that, in the moment that she gives you advice, and maybe it's rushing a little bit, she's like, go this way, go this way. What do you feel in your body? What emotions do you feel there?
Steve Nestor
Hmm. Maybe a. Unsure of myself that. Oh, am I not going the right way?
Thais Gibson
Okay, good. So maybe a feeling of sort of uncertainty or worry.
Steve Nestor
Not worry, but uncertainty. Yes.
Thais Gibson
Any irritation there as well?
Steve Nestor
Yes. From her?
Thais Gibson
Yeah. Yeah, it's okay.
Interviewer/Coach
That's very normal. Human. Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. And so in that moment, you feel a little irritated, a little uncertain. What do you make it mean about you, or what are you afraid will happen if, you know, she's giving you advice like that?
Steve Nestor
Well, if I think back to prior instances, instances where. Where we did have disagreements and conflict, even though we're avoiding them, that I got very irritated when she would tell me, you know, where to go, how to drive, or whatever, so that feeling of that irritation would come up. I'm not trying to describe it.
Thais Gibson
And I can give you some examples of common themes that come up for people. So did you make it mean I'm not respected? Like, what I'm doing is not respected?
Steve Nestor
Oh, I got you. Okay.
Thais Gibson
Maybe I'm unsettling.
Steve Nestor
Yeah, that probably would be it. Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Okay.
Interviewer/Coach
I'm gonna try a couple on just in case. I think it's probably that one too.
Thais Gibson
It could be disrespected. It could be unseen, unheard. What I'm doing or my opinion doesn't matter. In some sort of way, I'm not worthy. Or maybe she's shaming me and I feel sort of shamed in this experience or like I'm not good enough, not doing a good enough job. There's the common ones we'll tend to see there. Which of those lands with you the most?
Steve Nestor
Well, probably not respected would be the one. Yeah. Cause that's important for a man.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. And very.
Steve Nestor
Absolutely for women also. But.
Thais Gibson
No, but it's. It's very.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
More so I. I think for a man.
Thais Gibson
Okay.
Interviewer/Coach
Beautiful.
Thais Gibson
And so, so I am disrespected. And then when you believe you're disrespected in that moment, if that, that feeling comes up, that belief comes up.
Interviewer/Coach
Historically, you're doing some good work recently. But, but historically, what would you then
Thais Gibson
do when you would feel that way in a conflict?
Steve Nestor
I would either clam up, grab the steering wheel more tightly.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
And. Think about, am I going the right way? And you know, kind of get my mind right that, you know, double check myself. Am I going the right direction or the right. And sometimes I would, I was in the wrong. So, so, so it's like, oh, you're. It is a better way. But I wouldn't tell her that. I would just go that way to, to avoid the, the conflict.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. And when you would avoid a conflict, what happens next? Do you find yourself taking a little distance after because you're a little bit frustrated or just closing down a degree or two emotionally?
Steve Nestor
Definitely distancing. Yeah. Because that was kind of a theme over the last few years of our marriage.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
Was a distancing.
Thais Gibson
And that would be a normal thing to do if you believe your wife doesn't respect you. Right. Like it's a response, not just to
Interviewer/Coach
being told, hey, I want to go this way when driving, it's more a
Thais Gibson
response to believing that your wife doesn't respect you.
Steve Nestor
Right. Right.
Thais Gibson
Do you see the difference?
Steve Nestor
Good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that. So, so, so what do I do?
Interviewer/Coach
We're gonna, we're gonna work through it for sure. We're gonna work there. I gotta show you it first.
Steve Nestor
Okay.
Interviewer/Coach
Okay. Okay. So we're gonna go through one or two more. Okay. And we're just gonna.
Thais Gibson
I just want to.
Interviewer/Coach
For you to see the theme.
Thais Gibson
Okay. And. And before we go into one or
Interviewer/Coach
two more and then we'll actually will chip away at them.
Thais Gibson
I'd love to hear too. Is there a theme, any growing up, any wound or frustration feeling disrespected by anybody in your life, where that's been stored subconsciously first?
Steve Nestor
Not that I can recall. Again, as I mentioned my teen years, I was, you know, kind of the kid from the other side of the tracks, so I wanted to fit in with, with the group and you know, so there was a. It could have been some lack of respect in that because I was from the west side.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
And never thought of that. But, but I definitely. That's probably the reason that I got into marijuana so much back then. Was I was able to fit in
Thais Gibson
with this crowd and get some respect.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
So, you know, he can. He can smoke as much as we do. So I respect you. Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Okay.
Interviewer/Coach
So there you go. So you can see. And often what happens is we have these earlier experiences.
Thais Gibson
And how a trigger works is your subconscious mind actually stores everything. It consolidates memories a little bit over time, but it stores them all.
Steve Nestor
Okay.
Thais Gibson
And all memory gets stored with the emotion attached to it. So if you say a favorite memory, you might smile or laugh. If you say a sad memory, you might feel emotional and upset. And so what happens is our memory, our subconscious mind stores all these memories with all this emotion. And then when we have something all this time later, any point in time
Interviewer/Coach
later, unless we've really rewired that wound
Thais Gibson
or work through it, it's almost in essence, like you're in the car and you're driving, and Lisa says, turn. Turn this way. Go this way. And your conscious mind almost speaks to your subconscious mind and says, what do
Interviewer/Coach
we know about feeling this way?
Thais Gibson
A little disrespected. And whatever you've stored from all these past experiences floods to the surface. And now you're not just experiencing this moment of Lisa saying, go this way.
Interviewer/Coach
You're experiencing that moment, making it mean that you're disrespected.
Thais Gibson
And that's flooding all the times you might have felt a little disrespected in the past to the forefront.
Interviewer/Coach
And that's what a trigger is.
Thais Gibson
It's. We have an unresolved past story that's popping up in the present that has a big history behind it. Does that make sense?
Steve Nestor
Yeah, it does. Can I ask you a question?
Thais Gibson
Of course.
Steve Nestor
Lisa has suggested some books to me, and so some I've read, it's like, you know, that doesn't apply to me. And it was the. It was the Emotionally Unavailable man. And so I read one book, and it was like I was torn up because it was. It was me. And then. And then I read another book kind of by the same title, almost different author. It's like, that's not me. So. So. So not being emotionally available or goes in line with what you're saying, sort of. And that I'm maybe bearing those emotions,
Thais Gibson
that you probably have done a really good job in your life at compartmentalizing them.
Steve Nestor
Mm.
Thais Gibson
So I'll give you a little backstory there to answer your question. It's a great question. So often what happens is when you have somebody who grows up a little more avoidant, and I'm gonna guess that probably as you built a relationship to Christ and relationship to God, that helps you come out of your shell a little bit more in many ways, which is probably why you became more secure over time. But I'm gonna guess it maybe especially in earlier life, before any monumental time
Steve Nestor
where you felt, yeah, that wasn't until my mid-30s, so, yeah.
Thais Gibson
So I'm gonna guess before that you're probably a little. A lot more like truly dismissive. Avoidant and avoidance. Grew up with a lot of, like, stability in childhood, for the most part, like pretty predictable parents that are nice, but a lot of times they don't get attunement.
Steve Nestor
Don't get what?
Thais Gibson
Attunement, which means like having a parent who's present, who's emotionally available to you, who, if you cry or get upset, they're like, honey, what's wrong? Are you okay? And tries to soothe you. And so when you don't get that, you don't know how to give that because it's an unknown. And then when you don't get that, because children are biologically wired for attunement, they very much need a human being's deeply need attunement. Then what happens is you learn, okay, well, this part of me that needs this, it's not working.
Interviewer/Coach
Even though I need it, it keeps getting rejected. It's not here and it's missing.
Thais Gibson
And so you cope in your childhood by rejecting that part of yourself that needs emotional connection, that needs vulnerability and presence or attunement, and you're like, oh, I'm just going to reject this part of myself, become independent, do my own thing, get really mental and intellectual, kind of repress this feeling, part of myself to cope.
Steve Nestor
You're sounding like me.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah. And then that becomes how you learn to relate to people as an adult. Because it's what you were related through and with.
Steve Nestor
Yeah, yeah. Because my parents didn't. They had some conflict, but they didn't. They didn't have arguments in front of us. My dad was, you know, he was out doing his thing and not around a whole lot, so.
Thais Gibson
And so how could you ever learn how to have an argument with somebody? You never saw it. Right. And how could you give anything other than a lot of, you know, you being independent? Because that's what love was for you growing up is. You were taught to foster that. So it's your conditioning. And we take in our conditioning and then we play it out with others. So then you have Lisa, who interestingly comes from, like, a very different type of conditioning, who deeply needs attunement and
Interviewer/Coach
presence and, you know, is yearning for
Thais Gibson
that in a really big way, even, like, more so than the average person. And then that happens to be something that's an unknown in many ways to you, or at least something you were forced to divorce from in yourself at some point as a young boy, probably. And then that's what's showing up as how arguments and conflict play out as an adult.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Does that answer that makes sense?
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thais Gibson
That's a great question.
Interviewer/Coach
So we'll go back here for a second.
Thais Gibson
So in conflict, then, as a result, you feel a little disrespected sometimes. Maybe it's only a 3 or a 4 out of 10. It's not super strong. But then your theme is to deactivate,
Interviewer/Coach
to take distance as soon as you
Thais Gibson
feel like you're hurt or frustrated.
Steve Nestor
Yeah, I would say so. Yeah.
Interviewer/Coach
And we gave a.
Thais Gibson
You gave a really good example in the car. And I just want to start with the car itself.
Steve Nestor
Okay.
Interviewer/Coach
Okay. So you asked what to do about it.
Thais Gibson
Okay. And what you're doing is partially excellent, but there's a big missing piece. So you being able to try to have grace in that moment and give Lisa a compliment about her directions, that's a beautiful thing. But there's a part missing, which is that you didn't really get to work
Interviewer/Coach
through your own story.
Steve Nestor
Okay.
Thais Gibson
Okay. So then you still feel disrespected. You do something nice, but you kind of forgot about you. And we want both to be considered.
Steve Nestor
I'm all ears.
Interviewer/Coach
Okay. So in that moment, Lisa's giving you
Thais Gibson
direction, and you feel disrespected. Right. Very common experience to have. But you are being disrespected by Lisa, and Lisa truly doesn't respect you in the moment that she's giving you directions. Is that true?
Steve Nestor
It's not true. I don't think. I don't think she realizes that I'm feeling disrespected unless I tell her.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Interviewer/Coach
Which we're going to get.
Steve Nestor
I think that's what you're getting at.
Interviewer/Coach
But there's actually a step first that's the most important.
Thais Gibson
So could it be something other than that? So let's look at, like, Lisa in that moment. She's giving directions, and it's a very common thing to feel. You didn't like that that happened.
Interviewer/Coach
That's very fair.
Thais Gibson
But it means that she doesn't respect you as a husband. Could it be something other than that that's actually happening? So look at Lisa, there she is. And she's stressed about the directions, maybe. What's her relationship to her? Is she sitting there going, gosh, I
Interviewer/Coach
don't respect my husband. Let me give him a hard time about the directions? Or what do you think it is?
Steve Nestor
I think. I mean, I'm just analyzing. Or different situations where I think we both tend to. And maybe it's just me thinking this, but we both tend to want to be right. And so I think I'm right. She thinks she's right. You know, she loads a dishwasher one way, I load another, whatever, you know, that sort of thing. So in my mind, I'm thinking I'm right. I know where I'm going, but I'm not getting to where you want me to.
Interviewer/Coach
That's okay. I'm gonna guide you. Don't worry.
Steve Nestor
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer/Coach
So you're doing a great job. So there she is.
Thais Gibson
She's giving you directions. And do you think her relationship is to not respect you? She's trying to disrespect you on purpose?
Steve Nestor
No, definitely not.
Thais Gibson
And what do you think it is for her? Do you think that it's. She's stressed about going the wrong way, maybe a little bit anxious about time, maybe worried about running behind or having to loop back.
Interviewer/Coach
You've been in the car for quite a few hours.
Thais Gibson
Like, what do you think her relationship is to the direction?
Steve Nestor
Well, I have been known to be wrong in my directions for. Okay, so maybe that's part of it.
Interviewer/Coach
Okay, that's there.
Steve Nestor
But, yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about her personality and that. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not trying to figure that out.
Interviewer/Coach
Do you think that there's a part
Thais Gibson
of her at all?
Interviewer/Coach
And I could be wrong about this, but we're just trying them on.
Thais Gibson
Is there a part of her that maybe thinks she's almost supporting you by telling you which way to go? Like, oh, I got to make sure he doesn't make a mistake. I got to support him.
Steve Nestor
It could be. It could be. I never thought of it that way,
Thais Gibson
but we're just checking.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. So what I like about that is the thinking of one of the things that we've clamped onto recently. It's we. It's not just me or you or you. It's we, what do we do together? And so as I think of what you're mentioning there, that makes me think of it's we. And so she is supporting me in that. So that's.
Thais Gibson
And if you were in the position where you thought somebody was going the wrong way in their life in any
Interviewer/Coach
form, directionally or personally, in some capacity,
Thais Gibson
wouldn't you want to respect them enough
Interviewer/Coach
to tell them or to offer your feedback?
Steve Nestor
Yeah. As long as it didn't conflict with
Interviewer/Coach
your opinion, Cause a conflict. So. So notice the difference for just a
Thais Gibson
second when you believe that story that I'm being disrespected. Right. That that feeling comes up in your body and you're like, she's not respecting me. And. And notice the difference when you look outside side of that story and don't cling to that old programming that might be there, conditioning from the past, then you see it more openly and you're like, maybe she doesn't. Maybe her relationship to saying this isn't
Interviewer/Coach
to disrespect me, but maybe it's.
Thais Gibson
She's worried about time or she's trying
Interviewer/Coach
to be helpful or supportive.
Thais Gibson
How do you feel differently in that moment?
Steve Nestor
I would be more relaxed.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
And calmer about it. You know, we're not in a hurry. You know, it's. I've got time, so let's take an adventure. Let's go this way. Maybe it is a better way to go.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Or maybe available to just talk it out.
Steve Nestor
That would be a very good thing to do. Yeah. That would be different.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Interviewer/Coach
Hey. I think it's this way because of this reason. I think it's with.
Steve Nestor
Oh.
Interviewer/Coach
And then you come to a conclusion
Thais Gibson
or to even pull over for a
Interviewer/Coach
moment and sort it out together, double check things, whatever. Whatever you might need to do.
Thais Gibson
And so notice that when you feed into that little story in that moment, which is very human, all human beings do this, it closes off possibilities.
Steve Nestor
Right, Right.
Thais Gibson
And then when you feel that way, and then you proceed to go whatever way, your way, her way, but you've already told the story to yourself briefly, that I am disrespected. Right. Then there's a distancing.
Steve Nestor
Right, Right. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense.
Thais Gibson
The distancing isn't from the going the right or wrong way. The distancing is from that little intermediary piece where you believed first you made it mean that you were disrespect, and now you're reacting to that belief.
Steve Nestor
Oh, yeah, exactly.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Okay, good. So let's look a little bit further. So let's look at. Is there any evidence that Lisa actually does respect you?
Steve Nestor
That she does disrespect me?
Thais Gibson
No. That she does respect.
Steve Nestor
Oh, respect me. Oh.
Interviewer/Coach
You're like, that's the wrong way.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. She's affirmative in, you know, affirmations about my character or what I'm doing. More so now.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
Than before.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
Because we're both learning and growing.
Thais Gibson
Beautiful. And what's an example of something she'll say to you?
Steve Nestor
Well, we're both affectionate. Our love, number one love thing. Love style or whatever. So that. And just cuddling up to me and telling me she loves me or that I'm. But that I'm her only man or that sort of thing. Yeah.
Thais Gibson
That's nice. So you feel that sense of respect from her when she's saying those things
Interviewer/Coach
to you, affirming you, that makes you feel loved and respected?
Steve Nestor
Yes.
Thais Gibson
Yeah, that's beautiful. And do you have any other examples of how she respects you? Maybe leans on you or asks you for advice or resorts to your opinion for things?
Steve Nestor
I would say we listened to a kind of a meditation app by John Eldridge. It's called Pause, and it's very good. Different things. He's written a couple different books, and it's in this app called Pause. And highly recommend it.
Interviewer/Coach
Nice.
Steve Nestor
So anyway, but I'll make sure that we listen to even, like, our time together, like, in North Carolina, we were separated for quite a while, you know, maybe nine months or so. And she was driving from Florida to Canada, and I was in North Carolina helping out with my mom. And so she came, she spent the night, and we used to have. We had that habit, and we still do, of listening to the pause app for 10 minutes before I go to bed. And so it's a good way to get rid of, you know, stuff out of your head and get in the right frame of mind, you know, just giving it all to God and depending on him. So, anyway, she says she's going to sleep in the other room that night. And this was like, you know, we haven't done divorce yet, but it was, you know, separated. And I was, like, really mad. I was, you know, furious.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
And so I went up, went upstairs. She didn't want me to go upstairs. Went upstairs and. And took the. My phone says, you know, can we. Can we listen to the Pause app? And so she allowed that. And. But that was, you know, it was very painful. And that was the last time we did that for quite a while. But it was also something I could cling to, that we could do together. So we do that now. And she says. And so she'll ask me, you know, do you have a Pause queued up for us?
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
And so. So to be a kind of a spiritual Leader of our family, I think is something that she respects me for. And I probably wasn't doing a great job of that five years ago, but
Thais Gibson
it sounds like you're doing an amazing job now that she sees it. And what does that feel like in your body when you. You think of her trusting you and relying on you to be the spiritual leader of your family?
Steve Nestor
Well, there is a responsibility.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
With that.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
But also a. Good emotions. What you would call it, good. Good vibes out of that. In that it's something we're doing together. Yeah. She wants something I value. She values. We could do it together.
Thais Gibson
And you see the respect.
Interviewer/Coach
She.
Thais Gibson
She's following your lead with that.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. Following my lead.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Nestor
And you.
Thais Gibson
And maybe a feeling of fulfillment, a little bit like a responsibility, but a pride or a fulfillment sort of feeling.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. That's really beautiful. So. So is there anywhere else that you see her really respecting you.
Steve Nestor
In that. You know, in the last month or so, just like, for both of us, being able to talk through what our plans are, you know, what's the next thing that we're doing? And because we're in a new relationship. I mean, we're married 22 years, but we're in a new relationship.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
Now. And so to be able to. Her to ask my opinion on this and vice versa. I'll ask her, you know, is. I know you don't want to spend a lot of time in North Carolina with my family. Not that we're living with them, but.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
But, you know, it's in an old farmhouse and stuff. But that she's willing to. She knows it's important.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
And she knows family is important. She knows, you know, so her respect for me is that she's willing to go there for a couple months and, you know, let's try this two months and then we'll go from there.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
So that would be.
Thais Gibson
And consider you and meet you where you are and kind of follow the things that are important to you as well and deeply consider them and compromise with you over them.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. That's beautiful. So noticing that when you don't. When you go back into that old story, like, oh, I'm disrespected, you deactivate. But when you have this reference point of this idea that, like, she does
Interviewer/Coach
respect me and maybe she's just giving directions or trying to help or trying to support, there's a feeling of like,
Thais Gibson
I don't need to put a wall between us. Do you see the difference? And if you were driving in the car without that story, it might be a lot easier going forward in the future. So we find what. We make it mean, and we question the story. We're going to practice.
Steve Nestor
Say it again.
Thais Gibson
We find what. We make it mean about ourselves.
Steve Nestor
Okay, got it.
Interviewer/Coach
The source of really making through. Making it through conflict and in triggering situations.
Thais Gibson
And then we question the story.
Steve Nestor
I like that.
Thais Gibson
And then we. We tell the person what we need. So we're going to get into that second part in a few moments, but I want to just go through a couple others so we get to really practice this. Okay.
Steve Nestor
Okay.
Thais Gibson
So let's go to another conflict that
Interviewer/Coach
you had that you did a great job on that, by the way.
Thais Gibson
So let's go to another conflict. So if you'd like, we can do the one where you were really angry. That strong emotional one where, you know, you're. You're separating. She says, I'm gonna sleep upstairs. You want to work on that one? Or is there another one that. That comes up for you? That would be a good, potent one to really feel.
Steve Nestor
That would be. I'm trying to think of.
Thais Gibson
And you don't have to share. Just so you know, any personal. Like, you can.
Interviewer/Coach
We can just go into the details,
Thais Gibson
or we can avoid the deals and go into what you made it mean about you.
Steve Nestor
That would be a good one. I'm trying to think of another instance that really stands out. Of course, getting divorce papers wasn't very good, but
Thais Gibson
that's a good one. You want to do both of those?
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Okay.
Interviewer/Coach
Let's start with the. The upstairs one.
Thais Gibson
Okay.
Interviewer/Coach
So there's this day. There you are. And you can share as much or
Thais Gibson
as little context as you'd like. But the moment that really stood out to me when you got triggered was when she went to sleep upstairs. And in that moment that she goes to sleep upstairs, what emotions do you feel first?
Steve Nestor
Oh, it's very hurt and lack of respect, for sure.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
Because she didn't respect our marriage or me. Lack of understanding was a big one. Just not. Where are you at? What's going on in your heart, in your head? Where am I in your plans and thinking.
Thais Gibson
Good. So you have a lot of uncertainty in that moment with her, what she's thinking.
Steve Nestor
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Thais Gibson
And when you have that uncertainty.
Steve Nestor
Frustration. Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Good. And so let's go to. You feel this. This. I don't know where you're at in your plans and your thinking. And if you don't know where she's at, what do you then make that Mean about you or what are you afraid is going to happen?
Steve Nestor
I can't see the future. That's for sure.
Thais Gibson
And then if I can't see the future.
Interviewer/Coach
Because if you couldn't see the future and you were truly not worried about
Thais Gibson
something, it would feel very neutral.
Interviewer/Coach
You'd be like, I can't see the future, but it could be good or bad.
Thais Gibson
But there's probably an underlying piece of meaning you're giving it.
Steve Nestor
Okay.
Thais Gibson
Otherwise it wouldn't feel so bad.
Steve Nestor
I see.
Thais Gibson
So I can't see the future and you might abandon me. I might be alone. I might be unloved.
Steve Nestor
Probably the unloved part would be more so, you know, which kind of correlates to the lack of affection from my mom, possibly.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. I would say that would be the. What would. The emotion that comes up the most. Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Perfect. So unloved. You also said misunderstood as being another one. Did you just feel like that was dating back into. Oh, we don't understand each other and so I'm unloved. Or is it. I also feel, like, inherently misunderstood in this situation?
Steve Nestor
Well, both of us didn't understand each other.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
You know, we didn't. We weren't connecting, you know, and we were separated. She was spending time in Canada or. And we have a house in Columbia, so. Down there.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
And I was in Florida or. Because she needed her space.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
Which I thought, well, this is doing a good thing for her. But it wasn't there.
Interviewer/Coach
You are trying to help and you feel like it's not.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. So we finally get did to get together. I had my hopes that, all right, we're going to be able to, you know, let's work through this. I'm the optimist.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
It's going. It's all going to work out. Let's try to hash this out. And then just that kind of hand in the face. No.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
You know, I'm going upstairs.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
You know, I don't want you with me.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. And do you also feel. Is there a feeling and they're almost being, like, a little bit unwanted as well, or not good enough. Anything there?
Steve Nestor
Probably the not good enough. You know, I question myself a lot. You know, what am I or what should I do? What am I? You know?
Thais Gibson
And do you feel a little bit trapped at all? Like, in the confusion of things in that moment?
Steve Nestor
I don't. Can't think of the trap being the feeling on it, but.
Thais Gibson
Okay, good.
Steve Nestor
But like I say, the unloved, unwanted.
Thais Gibson
Not good enough.
Steve Nestor
The not good enough.
Thais Gibson
Misunderstood. Those are the big.
Steve Nestor
Those would be. Yeah.
Thais Gibson
And which one for you is the strongest?
Steve Nestor
Probably unloved. Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Okay, beautiful. So let's look at it for a second. So there she is. She goes upstairs and this is what we're gonna. This is what you're gonna get to
Interviewer/Coach
practice in conflict in real time later. Okay. So.
Thais Gibson
So she goes upstairs and because she goes upstairs, you are unloved. Can you 100 know that that's true?
Steve Nestor
No, just what I feel.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. And what happens to you when you think through that lens of like, I am unloved? What happens to you and your body? What. Who do you become? What. What happens?
Steve Nestor
Well, I was angry. Very angry. Very sad.
Thais Gibson
Hard not to be when you believe that you're spouse doesn't love you.
Steve Nestor
Disrespected. You know, we're. We're married. We.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
What do you mean you're gonna.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
Sleep in another bedroom.
Thais Gibson
Pain. A lot of pain.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. Pain. Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. No worries. In the moment that you see her go upstairs, if you didn't have this story that your brain goes to that. Okay, I'm unloved and that's why this is happening. How might you see the situation differently?
Steve Nestor
Well, you know, maybe she has a reason that she needs to go upstairs and be separated and there something else going on that I'm not aware of.
Thais Gibson
Make it curious instead.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
And it might allow you to approach the situation a little bit differently with.
Steve Nestor
Right, right, right.
Thais Gibson
In a way that allows things to open instead of close. Anger closes us off and curiosity opens us to somebody.
Steve Nestor
Okay.
Thais Gibson
And vice versa.
Steve Nestor
Right, right, right.
Thais Gibson
So. So let's look for a moment. So what could be the reason, Knowing what you know now about the situation. She went upstairs and it means she doesn't love you. Could it be something other than that?
Steve Nestor
My mind just goes back to what I was feeling at that time.
Thais Gibson
That's okay.
Interviewer/Coach
That's normal. I'll.
Thais Gibson
I'll guide you for a second. Could it be something like, she does love you, but she's also hurt?
Steve Nestor
Yes. Yep.
Thais Gibson
And maybe if she didn't love you, she wouldn't have even been as hurt to have to go upstairs.
Interviewer/Coach
Maybe she'd just be kind of more neutral about the situation or.
Thais Gibson
And one that sticks out to me is maybe she was trying to tell you something by going upstairs. Maybe it was her way of almost trying to get your attention.
Steve Nestor
Definitely. I think she was making a statement. Yeah. That it's. It's no longer us. I'm.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
Separate. And I definitely got that message.
Thais Gibson
And yeah. And maybe it was almost like a cry for help.
Steve Nestor
It very well could have been. Yeah. I wouldn't have thought of it at that time, although I. I did. Not knowing what was going on. I did go up stairs, and even though I knocked the door and she just go away, I came and just, like, put my hand on her and pray for a little bit. Then we did our pause app, and then. And that was it. So I did have a good response. A little bit of that. Well, it was not what I wanted,
Interviewer/Coach
but a good response.
Thais Gibson
I mean, that came out of you.
Steve Nestor
Right? Right.
Thais Gibson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is beautiful.
Steve Nestor
But.
Interviewer/Coach
But it's hard.
Thais Gibson
It's excruciating when you're sitting there believing she doesn't love me.
Steve Nestor
Right.
Thais Gibson
And that's why this is happening.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. So not understanding. Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. And so what else do you see in terms of that moment or that experience that Lisa. How she does love you?
Steve Nestor
Well, that she even stopped by to see me in North Carolina on the way to Canada.
Thais Gibson
Gosh.
Interviewer/Coach
It's such a fearful, avoidant thing, too, to. To stop by and then to sleep upstairs to make a statement. It's a very common, fearful, avoidant way
Thais Gibson
of communicating where they don't know how to communicate that well sometimes, but they hurt. So they want you to see their pain without having to say it.
Interviewer/Coach
And so it's a common theme for.
Steve Nestor
It makes sense.
Interviewer/Coach
Do you see that in the history of your relationship?
Steve Nestor
Sometimes.
Interviewer/Coach
And so she's trying to reach you
Thais Gibson
but doesn't know how.
Steve Nestor
Right.
Interviewer/Coach
And you're trying to reach her and don't know how.
Steve Nestor
Exactly. That's why we're here. No.
Interviewer/Coach
There you go.
Steve Nestor
Some help.
Interviewer/Coach
And so is there a time there that you see that she actually does
Steve Nestor
love you at that time?
Thais Gibson
Yeah. Which is hard to look for, but let's look.
Steve Nestor
That just, like, stands out in my brain, so. In my emotions, so overpowering everything else. So at that time, you're saying within
Thais Gibson
that time, you can go through.
Steve Nestor
We actually. She was good to go visit my mom. And, you know, she's kind of a bright shining star with my mom and in midst of her dementia and kind of uplifting her a little bit. And so.
Thais Gibson
That's a really big one.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. So that was.
Thais Gibson
So there she is. And she is hurt and going through
Interviewer/Coach
her own pain, some of it being
Thais Gibson
through her own childhood and stories. She comes by. She sleeps upstairs because she feels so distant and she's hurting. And yet she loves you enough to
Interviewer/Coach
still show up through her own pain
Thais Gibson
for your mom and to Be there
Interviewer/Coach
and to respect and love for you
Thais Gibson
and your family through doing that. Is that fair?
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. It's a beautiful one. And if you have a moment in the future where you feel unloved, what do you need?
Steve Nestor
I would need to share that feeling with her that, you know how I'm feeling.
Thais Gibson
Because if you don't, what happens?
Steve Nestor
That she's not going to know, for one thing. And then she'll go into her kind
Interviewer/Coach
of own stories, her own versions of these.
Steve Nestor
Yeah, yeah.
Thais Gibson
And then where do you go eventually? Where do you go eventually?
Steve Nestor
If I stay in this chair.
Thais Gibson
Oh, you go away.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. Back to the same. Yeah, yeah. Same cycle. Yes, exactly.
Thais Gibson
And it's very difficult in the long run to out will yourself out of these cycles. It's hard. They come back. And they come back because it's a response to that narrative first. And so let's go back to that idea that you're sitting there and you're going. You see her go upstairs, and what you did was beautiful for her. You tried to comfort her and still find connection. But what could you have said instead, knowing what you know in this moment?
Steve Nestor
Well, I. I guess I could say, you know, I don't understand why you're doing this. I probably did say that, you know, if this is something you feel you need to do, then, you know, let's do that. You. And then let's talk about it in the morning.
Thais Gibson
Good. These are all beautiful. Like, say the right things. But where you're gonna have a huge breakthrough in your marriage is through saying what's going on inside of you.
Steve Nestor
Okay.
Thais Gibson
She wants that. Any person in a relationship with a
Interviewer/Coach
dismissive, avoidant, or even dismissive, avoidant edges,
Thais Gibson
they yearn for that. That feels like vulnerability. That feels like love and connection.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
So try it on a different way for a second. Let's try saying how you're feeling in that moment.
Steve Nestor
Gotcha. Gotcha. So, you know, Lisa, you going upstairs like this really makes me feel unloved. Makes me feel that you don't respect me. You don't. That we're done, we're separated.
Thais Gibson
And did you want that in that moment?
Steve Nestor
No.
Thais Gibson
And so you might even say, and I really don't want that.
Steve Nestor
Ooh, I like that.
Thais Gibson
And you might even say, I don't understand what's going on here, but I really want to.
Steve Nestor
Mm.
Thais Gibson
But until you. You can anchor into yourself first.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
You can do these things, which are good. Like, you can give the compliment when she gives you other directions. You can. You can. She says let's go this way.
Interviewer/Coach
And you say, oh, that's a nice thing. And you have this nice moment where
Thais Gibson
you compliment her, but it's not vulnerability from your end. And so it's only a little part of the equation. You're kind of managing her feelings, and that's nice and it's a good step. But real intimacy, like emotional intimacy, connection, all the things that you didn't necessarily get a lot of in childhood and that she's yearning for as an adult, are those real things about what comes up for you? Okay.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
So. So let's try it again. So, so.
Interviewer/Coach
So you're doing amazing. You're doing amazing.
Thais Gibson
So let's go back to the car for a second. Okay. So, because we worked through the story part a little bit, seeing how you
Interviewer/Coach
aren't unloved or you aren't disrespected, and
Thais Gibson
you can work through some of that yourself, but I also want you to get in the habit of saying what you need.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Okay. So in that dynamic with the car, would it be fair to say something like, hey, you know, I need to know that you respect me. Sometimes I could use a little bit of reassurance that you respect me. Would that be something that you could see yourself saying?
Steve Nestor
Or is that a good pull over the side of the road and say, I love you, but when you tell me this, it makes me feel disrespected. And so let's just talk about it for a minute and so we can go on our way and free up that feelings.
Thais Gibson
And now that was the perfect answer. And now there's a two way connection, which is intimacy. And you can spend a lot of time focusing on the marriage of how to do the right thing, but the right thing's gonna be 25% of what needs to happen. The real thing needs to be you opening up your inner world to her too.
Steve Nestor
Wow.
Thais Gibson
And so that happened.
Interviewer/Coach
That happens through.
Thais Gibson
Through you getting into these parts and saying these things and sharing. And so, hey, can we talk about this is what I'm feeling. That's what, like, she would be yearning for. And now we have intimacy. Now we have real connection.
Interviewer/Coach
Okay.
Thais Gibson
It's not just you partially coming from your end or you partially trying to
Interviewer/Coach
do the right nice thing.
Thais Gibson
It's full. Here's who I am. And now who I am can really bond with who you are too. You can see in this part of the episode how much time Steve has spent showing up and trying to pour into the work in his marriage. And yet how often Steve has missed this one important point of actually being vulnerable about his own internal world and feelings. And interestingly, because Steve is married to a fearful avoidant who often yearns for depth and yearns for transparency in context and deeply wants to know their partner's inner world, the fact that that part is missing is going to be a massive block to emotional intimacy in the relationship. And so I start to encourage Steve here to really open up about what he's feeling and to reframe what he's needing so that he can foster connection both ways. Now, we go through an actual process here, and if you want to follow along at home, because you are also struggling to find what you're feeling or what you're needing and what meaning you are giving to situations, you can actually refer to a worksheet we have linked down below from our conflict resolution course that helps you actually surface the meaning you are giving to things and being able to work through it and communicate around it so you can reach a fulfillment in a conversation where you finally feel seen, heard, and understood and deeply know one another's needs.
Steve Nestor
Am I going to delve into those emotions when I don't really know how to.
Thais Gibson
Excellent question. It's going through what we did. Okay? So now we're gonna do it together. And I want you to try to. And I'll give you, like, a sheet for this after so you can practice it and everything.
Interviewer/Coach
You don't have memorize it all in this moment.
Thais Gibson
But. But I want you to think of another conflict, and I want you to notice it's the same thing. Like the laundry on the floor. It's that we make it mean something. Okay. Usually that meaning is from our past. It's not just our present.
Steve Nestor
Right.
Thais Gibson
So we make it mean, oh, I'm disrespected, for example. Okay. And then we react to our own story. So I think my wife doesn't respect me.
Interviewer/Coach
I hold the steering wheel tight, and
Thais Gibson
I shut down a little bit inside. And I never give the opportunity for intimacy.
Steve Nestor
Right.
Thais Gibson
Because I don't tell her, hey, this is what came up for me. And now I'm just drifting away.
Steve Nestor
Right?
Thais Gibson
Right. I built an invisible wall. Instead of opening my wall up. Right. Or in this moment, I feel unloved. And you do this nice thing, a beautiful thing, a powerful thing, by the way, it's not easy to do. You rub her back and you say, let's do the pause app. And you're. You're trying to connect. But if you had gone in and said, hey, I feel like I Don't understand. But I really want to. And right now I'm feeling unloved and I want this to work like it would completely change the dynamic of the conflict because you're showing yourself. So you have to find what you make the thing mean and then share it.
Interviewer/Coach
So we'll do one more.
Thais Gibson
So what's another time there was an argument or a challenge?
Steve Nestor
Well, challenge of my priorities with my family versus my priorities with her.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
You know, I feel I need to be there for my mom and my brother, helping them out. And she feels abandoned because I'm busy
Thais Gibson
and have a lot going on. Maybe.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. So that's, it's better now because she's got 24 hour care now in her house. So that's why I think we're able to, you know, let's just do the two months and see how that goes. And, and, but so my priorities have changed. So back to your question though. So in our time in North Carolina, we were staying at an old farmhouse which has been in the family for 120 years.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
And so not the greatest shape, you know, a little dirty. Nobody was in it.
Thais Gibson
Big history.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. Yeah. So it was special for me because I, you know, grew up summers there.
Thais Gibson
That's nice.
Steve Nestor
But not so special for her.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
So again, it was like she's doing this for me, for us.
Thais Gibson
Yes.
Steve Nestor
But I'm not prioritizing her and recognizing what the sacrifice she's making.
Thais Gibson
Yes.
Steve Nestor
Because her mom was 99 and we took care of her mom in our house for a while. So I'm thinking, well, she understands this. But we never had the really good discussions about it, which will be the
Thais Gibson
make or break every time. And I don't mean for the relationship per se, but make or break as to how a situation unfolds, if there's something challenging, it's always time for a discussion. Because you get ahead of things. Whatever we don't deal with ahead of time, we end up having to deal
Interviewer/Coach
with reactively and in the suffering.
Thais Gibson
And so there's this assumption like, oh, she's gonna understand. But just like you have this, this story that comes up that maybe I'm
Interviewer/Coach
not good enough when I'm being criticized
Thais Gibson
or I'm unloved or these types of things. You know, she'll have her own stories.
Interviewer/Coach
Right. You can tell her. One of the stories is the abandoned story.
Thais Gibson
Right. So then we feed into our stories and when we have our stories come up, we become the less best version of ourselves. Right. We go into coping from the story. And then we can't see the other person. Right.
Steve Nestor
Coping for sure.
Thais Gibson
Exactly. And so was there a moment in the farmhouse where you felt frustrated at a particular moment of conflict?
Steve Nestor
At least I have some AFIB problems. So one. One of those summers she had some afib, and we spent a lot of time going down the mountain to get medical care and so forth and go to medication, did what we needed to do. But then when she would get back, she'd still have episodes of it. And so one time for her when she was having afib, you know, I'm doing. I'm pharmacist, so, you know, take your aspirin, you know, you know, check your heart rate or whatever. And she said, well, you go ahead and go. I'll be all right. And she felt really abounded by me that I left.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
And so. But I never knew that because she didn't share it with me.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
So that's something that's came up Excellent. Since then.
Thais Gibson
That's a perfect one. So. And we're going to do both sides. You can.
Interviewer/Coach
We're going to see her, too. It's going to be fun.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
Or we could do. When I didn't bring my passport with me.
Interviewer/Coach
We might do that one, too.
Steve Nestor
Did you.
Interviewer/Coach
We'll see how much time we have here. But let's. Let's look at.
Thais Gibson
Let's look at that first one. So it gets brought up. And that's your moment of conflict. So we'll drop into that moment that it gets brought up you left me. And like, how could you do that? And in that moment. Okay, what do you feel when she said.
Steve Nestor
When she says that.
Thais Gibson
Yes.
Steve Nestor
I rationalize.
Thais Gibson
And what did you feel? Did you feel confused first?
Steve Nestor
No. Why didn't you tell me? Why. Why didn't you share that with me at that time?
Thais Gibson
Yes.
Steve Nestor
And really, tell me what you felt instead of telling me. It's okay. You couldn't go.
Thais Gibson
Exactly. And then when she doesn't tell you, and what do you make that mean about you in that moment? So she doesn't tell you, and you're like, why didn't you tell me? And she doesn't tell you, and that means what to you?
Steve Nestor
That she doesn't care that much about me and then she's willing to share her real feelings.
Thais Gibson
So she doesn't care about me enough to share her real feelings.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. And. And so there's probably a feeling of almost like betrayal there or this unloved again, maybe I'm not cared about. And so let's Practice just communicating that for a second. So. So, you know, she shares her part, and then you come to your part, and you might say,
Steve Nestor
tell me how you really feel.
Interviewer/Coach
Tell me how you really feel. Yeah, I'd like to know how you really feel next time.
Thais Gibson
Yeah, but what about your intimacy piece? Your. Your connecting piece?
Steve Nestor
So, okay, hey, when I learn words, you mean not at that moment, when
Thais Gibson
you're talking through it. In that moment. So. So here you are, and you realize that she didn't tell you, and you're trying to talk through this.
Steve Nestor
Oh, so after the fact.
Thais Gibson
Exactly. And so you might say, hey, when you don't tell me things, what comes up for me is what.
Steve Nestor
Right. Okay. So. So, Lisa, I know this is a big thing for you. You felt abandoned in this moment, and I can understand that now because you're sharing, we're communicating better, and you're telling me how you really felt at the time, and I.
Thais Gibson
You're amazing.
Interviewer/Coach
You're doing something.
Thais Gibson
And for me, when. When you don't tell me things, that actually hurts me. I feel like I'm not cared about. Yeah, I feel like you don't care enough about the relationship to share things with me, and that hurts me too. I want you to share.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
And when you say that, she's gonna sit there and she's gonna feel like, oh, my goodness, you feel not cared about. When I don't tell you things, you really. You really want me to tell you things. It's gonna encourage her to communicate. But when she just feels abandoned and thinks you don't care, she's probably sitting
Interviewer/Coach
there thinking the exact same story that you're thinking. Yeah, she's thinking, he doesn't care about me. You're thinking, she doesn't care about me.
Thais Gibson
And until you share your inner worlds, you have all the excuses in the world to keep putting your walls up.
Steve Nestor
And that's what we want to do, and we want to do that.
Thais Gibson
And she'll go back to, like, he doesn't care, so I'm not gonna share. But if she heard you say, I feel really hurt when. When you don't share things, I. I feel like you don't care about me. When you don't tell me things and I want you to, she sees, like, what you're actually feeling and that you need her to share.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
And now she's like, the next time she goes to not share, she's like, oh, no, no. Steve feels not cared about if I don't share. He truly wants me to share. And on the entire trajectory of that. That thing that could repeat itself changes.
Steve Nestor
Exactly.
Interviewer/Coach
Do you see?
Steve Nestor
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Interviewer/Coach
So this will be like a practice
Thais Gibson
for you, right, to sit down and to go through, like, okay, well, what comes up for me? What do I make it mean about me and what do I need? And constantly going to her with that. Because now you offer up actual intimacy and a two way connection.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. Wow. Good stuff. Wow.
Thais Gibson
Okay, so.
Interviewer/Coach
So let's do one last one for her flip side. I just want.
Thais Gibson
We'll see full circle.
Interviewer/Coach
Cause I. I think you're gonna know hers really well. Cause you seem to be doing a great job of working on her side
Thais Gibson
and sort of being there for what
Interviewer/Coach
she needs and what she's feeling. But your work is gonna be to
Thais Gibson
open up your side of things.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Oh, I know, but you can see it. So in that moment when she says, oh, leave, and she doesn't tell you to stay. Okay. What do you think her story was there.
Steve Nestor
He's. He's gonna leave.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
Yeah. Anyway.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
So why should I share my feelings? Because he's gonna leave and go do his thing.
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
Steve Nestor
And I'll just be here by myself. Abandoned by myself.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. And notice that she. When she gets frustrated or she walls off, then she's reacting less to Steve as Steve is, because you're not showing who Steve is. And she's reacting just like you have them to her story of Steve.
Steve Nestor
Right.
Interviewer/Coach
Not based on what Steve would do,
Thais Gibson
but based on all of her previous childhood wounds herself. And so she sees you through the lens of those wounds, and she doesn't even get a chance to see you outside of the lens of those wounds until you show who you are. So it's the remedy. Right. She'll just keep.
Interviewer/Coach
It's easy to keep projecting the story
Thais Gibson
until we share otherwise.
Steve Nestor
Exactly.
Thais Gibson
And now she can see you as you.
Interviewer/Coach
And all the love that you give
Thais Gibson
and all of the consistency and the
Interviewer/Coach
ways you've shown up and all that
Thais Gibson
you are when you actually share what's going on inside of your inner world too.
Steve Nestor
Yeah.
Thais Gibson
Yeah. So she feels abandoned, and then she
Interviewer/Coach
puts her walls up, and then you
Thais Gibson
can see how this becomes a whole cycle.
Steve Nestor
Oh, yeah.
Thais Gibson
And then you say, okay, she needs
Interviewer/Coach
space, so then I need to give her the space. And then you probably feel hurt knowing later that she didn't tell you.
Thais Gibson
And then maybe you want to drift too.
Interviewer/Coach
And now we have two drifters when.
Thais Gibson
When the stories get in the middle.
Steve Nestor
Right.
Thais Gibson
Okay, so the. The big difference here is the difference between. Because you're Doing a lot of things. Right? Right. You've got some good things that you were doing already. You're trying to. You know, you said this beautiful thing in the car.
Steve Nestor
Knew it. How?
Interviewer/Coach
But you're. But you're saying this moment in the car.
Thais Gibson
Okay. I complimented her when she wanted to give directions, or I pat her on the back and said, let us do the pause app. And you are doing things. You've got a lot of humility to try anyways. Right. But the thing that's still missing all of those things is you opening up your world and sharing what you're feeling. So now she gets the opportunity to
Interviewer/Coach
see you outside of her stories of you.
Thais Gibson
And now you get the opportunity to have a two way street for actual emotional intimacy and connection, which she's yearning for because you've actually shared your inner world. So it's gonna take practice, basically, in every conflict. That should be the goal.
Interviewer/Coach
So this will be the big theme to practice.
Thais Gibson
And, you know, notice that we all kind of go through life like this.
Interviewer/Coach
We see each other through our stories,
Thais Gibson
and it puts everybody at the mercy of everybody's conditioning. Because if I just. If I have a lot of trauma, then I'm gonna project a lot of things onto you. Right. Cause I see you through the lens of all the times I felt abandoned
Interviewer/Coach
or unloved or trapped or betrayed or whatever it might be.
Thais Gibson
And the only way that somebody can get past that with me is, you
Interviewer/Coach
know, it's obviously part of my work to do, to work through and rewire those stories.
Thais Gibson
But it's also the work in a relationship, in a partnership together, to say, hey, this is what comes up for me, and I need to see that you do love me, or I need
Interviewer/Coach
some reassurance that you do respect me, or I need some.
Thais Gibson
Some connection here or some understanding. Right. And so when we speak into whatever the opposite of that story is and we request those things.
Steve Nestor
The opposite of the story.
Thais Gibson
Exactly. That's what we almost always need. Yeah. Okay. So when you feel misunderstanding between you and Lisa when she goes upstairs, what do you need? Understanding.
Interviewer/Coach
Right, Right. Or when you feel unloved, you might need a little bit of reassurance that
Thais Gibson
she does love or that she does care, or you feel disrespected, you're like, hey, this is what's coming up for me. I need to know that we respect each other. Can we hash it out?
Steve Nestor
Right. Because she's never gonna know if I don't share with her. And I'm not gonna know if she doesn't share with me, obviously. So.
Interviewer/Coach
Yeah, exactly.
Thais Gibson
So in summary, first of all, you've
Interviewer/Coach
done an amazing job. You've done an amazing job. We went through so many. Thank you. We went through so many things, and
Thais Gibson
it's a new skill. Right. So you're not gonna like, okay, I'm gonna go out into the world and
Interviewer/Coach
start doing it every. You know, perfectly the next time something comes up. But what I'll give for you to
Thais Gibson
take home is a sheet, and it'll go through every time I'm in a conflict. What am I making it mean about myself? And you'll actually see a list of core wounds that are very frequent in people.
Interviewer/Coach
So you'll be able to. Oh, it's that one. You'll know.
Thais Gibson
And then you'll be able to go into, okay, well, what do I need? And how can I can I communicate this? And there will be steps for identifying your need and then framing it properly so you can say, this is what's coming up for me. And that's going to be that path to really building that sense of deeper connection and emotional intimacy. And I don't know if you're up
Interviewer/Coach
for any homework, but there's also a
Thais Gibson
little bit of tool that you and Lisa can actually work on together. Maybe we'll talk about it in the couple session as a tool, but it helps you rewire these old stories, too.
Steve Nestor
That's what I need. Yeah.
Interviewer/Coach
You're not born with them. Right.
Thais Gibson
So they get conditioned into us, and through repetition and emotion really firing and wiring over time, we can recondition them. We can change the way we're seeing these things so we don't perceive this
Interviewer/Coach
way and then close down or whatever.
Thais Gibson
Our version of the coping mechanism would be. Right. For some people, they tell the story that they're abandoned and they cling. For other people, they tell the story
Interviewer/Coach
they're abandoned, and they pull away.
Thais Gibson
And, you know, everybody copes differently. But it will actually also change the trajectory of that coping mechanism by rewiring the wound first.
Interviewer/Coach
So I'll give you one of those
Thais Gibson
to take home as well. But we may cover that a little bit.
Steve Nestor
The takeaway is that. In the vulnerability that can happen is in the midst of conflict, there is that opportunity to really connect with each other and understand each other more, which is what we want to do. We want to understand each other and love each other more. And so until we break through some of those barriers that are set up from wherever, whatever, our childhood or whatever, then that's, you know, I'm looking forward to practicing what we've learned and what we're going to learn.
Interviewer/Coach
Well, thank you so much. Thank you for doing this with me. You were just vulnerable and amazing and did such a fantastic job.
Steve Nestor
Not too bad for a guy doesn't share his emotions.
Interviewer/Coach
He's amazing.
Steve Nestor
You're good at bringing him out.
Interviewer/Coach
You did a phenomenal job of sharing. Thank you for being here today.
Thais Gibson
Stay tuned for Lisa and Steve's story together so you can watch them coming through the other side of this work.
Date: May 30, 2026
Host: Thais Gibson
Guest: Steve Nestor
Main Theme:
Why people with dismissive avoidant attachment styles tend to shut down rather than express their needs in relationships, and practical strategies for creating vulnerability and emotional intimacy.
This episode is an in-depth coaching session between Thais Gibson and her guest, Steve Nestor, who has worked on shifting from a predominantly dismissive avoidant attachment style toward a more secure style. Through exploring Steve’s background and real conflict scenarios in his marriage, Thais illustrates the unseen dynamics and internal narratives fueling emotional withdrawal, and offers step-by-step tools to reprogram these patterns and foster authentic connection.
On the root cause of avoidance:
“You cope in your childhood by rejecting that part of yourself that needs emotional connection… become independent, do my own thing, get really mental and intellectual, kind of repress this feeling part of myself to cope.” — Thais (00:42)
On invisible walls in relationships:
“Each time there’s a conflict that’s avoided, you build an invisible wall between yourself and that person… conflict, it exists, and then it doesn’t go anywhere.” — Thais (06:03)
On finding the real wound beneath small arguments:
“It’s not really the clothes on the floor… We go our whole lives never properly resolving things because we’re not talking about what we make it mean.” — Thais (11:32)
On practical vulnerability:
“Where you’re gonna have a huge breakthrough in your marriage is through saying what’s going on inside of you. She wants that. Any person in a relationship with a dismissive (avoidant) ... yearns for that.” — Thais (54:44)
Reframing the narrative in conflict:
“Notice that when you feed into that little story in that moment… it closes off possibilities. And then when you feel that way… you proceed, but you’ve already told the story to yourself briefly, that I am disrespected. Then there’s a distancing.” — Thais (34:20)
On breaking the cycle:
“Until you share your inner worlds, you have all the excuses in the world to keep putting your walls up... But if she heard you say, I feel really hurt when… you don’t tell me things and I want you to, she sees what you’re actually feeling and that you need her to share.” — Thais (67:10)
Steve’s journey reflects the transformation possible when dismissive avoidants begin to open up—first to themselves, and then to their partners. As Thais affirms, vulnerability is not just emotional exposure; it is the essential bridge to healing past wounds and creating true, dynamic intimacy in present relationships.
Stay tuned for future episodes exploring Lisa and Steve’s continuing story and practical tools for couples overcoming attachment patterns.