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- [00:00]
Lisa
I've looked, let's say, to men for my value.
- [00:06]
Thais Gibson
Right.
- [00:06]
Lisa
And so if, if I, I felt like I've lost a certain value in this relationship, then I'm gonna look for it through another relationship.
- [00:17]
Thais Gibson
Exactly it.
- [00:18]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [00:19]
Thais Gibson
And so there you are driving. And my worth, my value is dependent on how men feel towards me. My husband makes a big mistake and I immediately go to, well, then I must not have value. And so there you are driving in the car, already going through so much with mom and the loss that you're experiencing. And just, just to add the cherry on top, you're just going to toss your value out the window while you're driving because you've made your entire value about how Steve shows up for you in that moment.
- [00:53]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [00:55]
Thais Gibson
Welcome to Breakthrough with Thais Gibson. You're gonna see us dive deep today into Lisa's story where we'll go into some of the themes and patterns that show up in her adult relationships, but that root back into her childhood and the beautiful evolution of how she starts to put these pieces together and actually show up in a totally different way in her life and relationships going forward. So I'm gonna start by introducing you to Lisa.
- [01:19]
Lisa
Hi. So my name is Lisa. My husband and I have been married for 22 years and in 2024, we ended up getting divorced. I had an extramarital affair and just didn't think everything was over. And within the last year and a half, we have been talking about reconciling and I just need some, some help with relationship goals and maybe even self esteem building. So that's kind of in a nutshell, what I'm hoping to get some help with.
- [01:57]
Thais Gibson
Thank you so much for being here today and really excited to dive into all of this together. I would love to hear just a little bit about what made you, you so a little bit about your backstory, your childhood, how you grew up, sort of any outstanding themes that you notice?
- [02:10]
Lisa
Well, a few things that I'm going to bring up is because of the personal development school that I've kind of learned more about myself in the last, you know, six, eight months. So I grew up very close to here in a small town and I'm the youngest of five. My parents immigrated from Denmark with three young children. Then my next oldest sister, she was four years older than me and then I was the oops at the end. So my, my parents were older when they had me and growing up I had a lot of abandonment issues just because my, my parents were very busy. Business, you know, five kids I have memories as a toddler of being harnessed and attached to the clothesline in the backyard and left for hours like, like, you know, you just wonder, oh gosh, like you felt like a dog that's been put out to, you know, in the afternoon when mom's too busy. So that's kind of like a, a theme that, you know, the abandonment side of, of being a young child. And when I was like, fast forward 15, my parents decided to leave here and immigrate to the States. So again, I'm leaving all my family, my friends, my school, and starting up front fresh in, in South Florida. So at the time, yeah, sure, being at the beach in Florida was a good thing, but then again, they left me there a lot by myself as a teenager. So you can well imagine there were opportunities to get into trouble very easy. So I did, I, I got into a lot of drugs and alcohol and very promiscuous time in my life and got married the first time, 22. So that was very early because I wasn't mature enough and had a baby right away. Yeah. And that marriage only lasted five years. And became a single mom. Kind of tried to work, you know, and support myself and be a, be a good mom at the same time. But I had a lot of trouble with that marriage just because we had a lot of issues with child's custody. And it was, it was a constant
- [04:50]
Thais Gibson
kind of, you're trying to be a single parent, you're trying to fight legal battles and you're trying to provide at the same time. Yes.
- [04:55]
Lisa
And then about nine years went by and I had marriage number two. And that only lasted six months because he was much older. And I was, I was looking to kind of find somebody to just like be, be a, A stable.
- [05:17]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [05:18]
Lisa
And, and a lot of my girlfriends my age were getting married and I wasn't. And it was like, oh, well, here's somebody who's interested. And. And again, that marriage only lasted six months. And then shortly after that, I met Steve and I actually kind of met him at the same time. He was one of the greeters at church.
- [05:41]
Thais Gibson
Oh, nice.
- [05:42]
Lisa
And I saw the way he related with his wife and I was like, oh, I want somebody like that. I want somebody who's caring and loving. And I could just see the relationship they had. But what I didn't know at the time was that she had cancer and she passed away. And I think it was about a year later he and I started to date. Yeah, I asked him out for the first date and we had have had like a 22 year marriage. A lot of ups and downs. I think Covid might have created a little bit of, you know, problem with us from an emotional connection standpoint. He was an essential worker and was gone a lot. So I was at home by myself and just felt again, the abandonment.
- [06:41]
Thais Gibson
It's very interesting.
- [06:42]
Lisa
Yeah. And we started, like, even taking some separate trips. He would go to North Carolina to look after his mom. So I would go down to either South America or the ministry work I started doing going to Uganda. And it just kind of. We emotionally, I think, started to get detached.
- [07:06]
Thais Gibson
Yeah. Yeah.
- [07:07]
Lisa
And Fast forward to 2022. And I came back up here to celebrate my mom's passing. We couldn't come up in Covid and.
- [07:21]
Thais Gibson
Sorry.
- [07:22]
Lisa
Yeah, it was. It was tough because Steve forgot his passport. So I had to drive from North Carolina up here by myself. Abandonment.
- [07:34]
Thais Gibson
Okay. Again, right at the time that your mother passes. Yeah.
- [07:38]
Lisa
And. And we had just sold our house, we were moving. All of this stuff was going on. And I ran into a childhood high school sweetheart, and that's when the affair started. And, you know, it was like, oh, here's my prince charming coming into my life and going to rescue me from, you know, a little bit of the abandonment I'm feeling and giving me the attention that I was kind of craving at the time. So fast forward there. We ended up getting divorced, and I moved up, back up here. Yeah. And it was just something that I kept feeling like, you know, whether it was a holy spirit prompting or something where I just. I just felt like I'm not at ease. I was going through the motions. But there was a level of discomfort and I couldn't put my finger on it. I couldn't say, well, this isn't the right person for me. Maybe it's just my insecurity. Maybe it was my deeply unmet needs
- [08:48]
Thais Gibson
that were happening that weren't getting conveyed and.
- [08:50]
Lisa
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, Steve and I had maintained a level of. Of contact. And I. When I look back on it now, I think it was partly because I didn't want to fully disconnect. I didn't fully want to be separate. We shared our house. You know, we were going to divide the calendar two months for you, two months for me. You know, back and forth.
- [09:15]
Thais Gibson
Lots of ties still. Yeah, there were.
- [09:17]
Lisa
And the emotional ties, the spiritual ties, those things were still kind of there. And I just knew that I needed more than just the therapy I was getting, you know, with my counselor. I found your personal development school and I just said, I'm, I'm going to really work on this, and I've learned so much. And, but at the same time, there's those, like, doubts and fears. When I did the testing, I came up with equally fearful avoidant, and dismissive avoidant in my test score.
- [09:56]
Thais Gibson
Interesting.
- [09:56]
Lisa
So I'm like, okay, now, Lisa, you're really doubly bad.
- [10:00]
Thais Gibson
No, not at all.
- [10:01]
Lisa
You just, you know, you sometimes take on those kind of negative self, subconscious kind of attitudes or. Yeah.
- [10:11]
Thais Gibson
I want to fast forward and thank you for sharing. You outlined everything so powerfully and beautifully. I want to fast forward to, you know, when you reconnect and where you're at in this moment. So in this moment, because I, I, if we have time, I actually want to go into the root of the affair, because that's clearly a recurring pattern in your life with the abandonment. And when we have these deeply wounded pieces of us in childhood, that's what Arrested Development is. We literally, when we go into direct coping as children, we don't grow through the times that we go into coping mechanisms. And because you had such an abandonment wound at such a young age, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a part of you when you feel abandoned or alone or maybe both of them. And we'll get into it if you feel almost childlike and needy and, you know, you want to act out and somehow cope and numb and avoid and escape this loneliness. And that may have been a really key component of what led to the affair. And I think that when you actually see that and we work through it a little bit, you might be able to forgive yourself at a deeper level if you haven't yet. So I think that'll be a powerful place to dig into. But before we do that, where are you now? Because you said, I'm still having these doubts and fears. So what is on your mind as of lately? You're. Are you doubting getting back together fully? Are you doubting, you know, you, you mentioned that maybe you don't trust yourself fully, perhaps to, to move forward. So where are you right in this moment?
- [11:34]
Lisa
Well, I do, I do feel confident that we are, you know, we're both really trusting God's aligned. This in a way, in so many different ways, just for us to be back together again. And that part I feel confident about. I think the part that, I guess my own insecurity is just me kind of going back to bad patterns again. Whether it's, it's, you know, am I going to fixate on something that he does that has nothing to do with, you know, him not wanting to be with me or.
- [12:17]
Thais Gibson
Okay.
- [12:17]
Lisa
You know, and again, that goes, I think, to the abandonment feeling.
- [12:20]
Thais Gibson
You do. Good for you. Yeah.
- [12:22]
Lisa
And, and the emotional connection. We, we sometimes got very, you know, I would say to him, like, I want to go down to Columbia for, for a couple of weeks by myself because I need time alone. Yeah. And he's like, okay. And. But then, you know, a month is too long. So, you know that we kind of had that agreement when we were married before. And then I would get really upset when he wouldn't call me every day.
- [12:53]
Thais Gibson
Yes.
- [12:53]
Lisa
So it was like, I want, you know, he was honoring my request. But then I was like, well, what's the matter? Why aren't you calling me? Well, you wanted to be alone. And I know he's not going to read my mind, but you want them to. Yes.
- [13:09]
Thais Gibson
Yeah, absolutely.
- [13:10]
Lisa
Yeah. So I think it's just now having that, I guess, level of confidence in myself that I'm not going to return to old patterns of self doubt and that I'm not good enough. I don't deserve this, you know, love.
- [13:28]
Thais Gibson
And I think that that'll be there. But I'm curious when you look back, you know, and we'll explore this in detail, we can go into it. But when you look back, when you think of you repeating patterns, so maybe feeling frustrated in the relationship and maybe pushing away or feeling hurt that he's not calling every day or times where you numbed or avoided or even went to the affair, is it. Was it more rooted in not being good enough and senses of unworthiness and poor confidence? Or was it more that you felt deeply emotional because of that abandonment and alone dynamic that was coming up and that was what was causing you to move into the. These more compulsive patterns of like, just trying to escape that feeling.
- [14:11]
Lisa
Yeah, a lot of the escape.
- [14:13]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [14:13]
Lisa
Yeah. I didn't, I didn't like the way I was feeling inside so that, you know, whether it was the alcohol or the drugs, I mean, that would be a good way to mask and then put up the barrier so nobody could get in close enough. I mean, usually relationships, you know, I mean, I've been married three times. I've had numerous other relationships when I was, you know, from the time I was 15 to, you know, the last 20, 20 years. But that insecurity of like, well, okay, just move on to the next person because I don't want anybody else to get close enough to maybe feel that I'm gonna get Abandoned again.
- [14:59]
Thais Gibson
Yes. And you don't wanna feel the abandonment of leaving the past relationship. So there's this sort of two part propelling you forward. It's like, I wanna escape this feeling of abandonment that you probably are good at trying to push down, but I bet is very much driving a lot of these behaviors.
- [15:13]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [15:14]
Thais Gibson
And there's this part of, okay, we'll also move on to the next person. So I can see that I can just build a new relationship. It's fine. And there's this idea that relationships are. You can move through them if needed and you would be okay, you can find another one. And again, it sort of reinforced, okay, then I'm not gonna be alone, I'm not gonna be abandoned or have to really sit with that. And if we look back on some of those themes, you know, what really struck me in your story is these themes. You know, you have this really profound childhood dynamic where you were left outside, and that's going to deeply imprint your subconscious mind and the rest of your nervous system. And then you have. Going forward after that, you have this, um, part of you where. Where you turn to drugs and alcohol at 15 and you're doing these things, and I'm sure it's like a numb. You were left alone, your parents were traveling. And then you get married young, and suddenly you're, you know, a single mother not too long after that, going through the motions of trying to figure that all out. And there's this theme always tying through this. Abandoned alone. And I want to go into it right now by looking at did this theme was at the root cause of what repeated when you had the extramarital affair. Since we're. We're here to work on that. And I would love to, if we can anchor into a moment where you may have been driving and, you know, you lost your mom and Steve had forgotten his passport. And I want to know, like, sort of what you were feeling and experiencing emotionally leading up into meeting your high school sweetheart again. Because I think if we can work through the roots of that, you'll see, like, oh, if I'm not running from this and this doesn't live inside of me, I actually trust my own behavior, so. A lot more than I realize. So can we go into that for a moment?
- [16:56]
Lisa
Yeah. I mean, I think I was like, even crying in the car as I was driving. It was just like, how could you do this to me at this time? It was like going up there, I wanted to be having that support, of course. And then it was like getting up There and again, feeling alone, even though, you know, family members were there. But it still was that feeling of. Of being, you know, I. He didn't care enough. He should have remembered his passport. He, you know, wasn't there for me emotionally when I needed that support. And that's where I know that when I got up there, I think there was a part of me that just kind of shut down emotionally towards him too, because I was like, you know, you're supposed to be here with me. Yeah. You know.
- [17:57]
Thais Gibson
And was that one of the most heart wrenching things that ever happened in your marriage?
- [18:03]
Lisa
I think it was such a catalyst that. Yes. I mean, it just was that feeling again of just, you know, alone, you know, this isn't what marriage is supposed to be. Yeah.
- [18:20]
Thais Gibson
You know, and then, of course, you put a wall up and then it's easy to at some point justify when somebody's giving you your deeply unmet needs and accidentally go down that rabbit hole. So. So let's go back to that moment. So you're driving in the car, and there you are, and you're crying in the car. And do you have that moment sort of visually, do you remember where you're sitting? I mean, obviously in the car seat, the driving the car. And you started to touch on some of these things. But I want to try to extract everything from there. So in that moment, he's not there. And probably one of the times you need him the most because you're going through this profound loss. And what do you make that mean about you in that situation? You said he didn't care because he's supposed to be there. You said, I'm all alone. Is there anything else that came up?
- [19:03]
Lisa
Probably that, that just another example of how, you know, I'm not good enough. Because if. If I was good enough to, you know, that he cared enough for me, I was, you know, that he really would have made sure that he was there with me. Yeah. And just the. The feeling of abandonment, lack of value that, you know, well, if I don't mean enough to you to make sure this important event was, you know, that you're there with me by my side. And I think the emotional disconnection that was going on because he was looking after his mother and I was living in a little farmhouse that wasn't mine, there was like, again, where I was in a situation where I really didn't want to be. And it was igniting even more resentment too, that I was like, you know, why am I here? You don't care enough about Me, I'm not valued. And then it sort of just perpetuated itself. It grew like this monster.
- [20:19]
Thais Gibson
Of course. Of course. Because. And that's what happens is that's a traumatic experience to go through that profound loss, to feel that way. And then it imprints us, and we store it. And then we're reacting. We don't see the person anymore as they are. We see them through the lens of what we're carrying through the filter of our subconscious mind. And so it makes a lot of sense. And what you're gonna see is, as this conversation unfolds, Lisa's able to start working through these stories and really questioning some of these things that were otherwise extremely painful to carry. And then we'll talk a little bit about what Lisa needs to feel a resolution or relief here so that she's able to honor her needs while also not identifying with the same old story. And, in fact, if you're following along at home and see some of yourself in these themes and patterns, then we actually have a tool that we'll share with you in the description down below that comes right from our Emotional Mastery course called the Emotional Processing Tool. It's a very powerful tool to help you work through your own stories while also identifying and honoring your own needs. So take a listen. I want to start with. With just working through it. So I'm going to take you through a little bit of a process. And what's the last question before we do that is did you feel unloved? Was there any part of you that felt unloved in that instance?
- [21:29]
Lisa
Yeah, because our intimacy had kind of not been as normal, like, late at that time, too. So there wasn't as much close physical touch and ways that you were used to feeling loved. Yeah, you know, we. We've done a lot of couples kind of things through our church where, you know, the five love languages and, you know, how to be a better communicator. But we weren't applying any of them, you know, and. And I could see that at the time, too. It's like, you know, you go. You go through the motions, but then you're not actually applying them, which has to be.
- [22:09]
Thais Gibson
Yeah, it's just intellectualizing everything.
- [22:11]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [22:12]
Thais Gibson
Yeah. So I want to pick, you know, which of these stands out as being the strongest for you. Unloved alone. He didn't care about me. Not enough. Abandoned or I don't have value.
- [22:26]
Lisa
Probably the. I don't have value.
- [22:28]
Thais Gibson
Okay.
- [22:28]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [22:29]
Thais Gibson
Okay. So let's go back to that moment in the car. And so you're driving and you're crying, and. And he's not there. And you feel that feeling of like, then I don't have value. And where do you feel that in your body?
- [22:45]
Lisa
Probably mostly in my. My heart.
- [22:46]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [22:47]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [22:48]
Thais Gibson
And I want to sit with that for a second. And what does it feel like in your heart? Like pressure, heaviness, Empty. Emptiness. Yeah. And I want you to look in that moment, and there you are. You're driving your car, and you don't have value, and that's why he's not there for you. And it feels like that in the moment. That's what's coming up. But can you 100% know that he's not there because you don't have value?
- [23:15]
Lisa
I think my. My smart Lisa side says, no, that's not true.
- [23:19]
Thais Gibson
Conscious mind, yes.
- [23:21]
Lisa
My conscious mind says, yeah, that's not true. I do have value. I am loved. I.
- [23:27]
Thais Gibson
We're gonna really walk through it. We're gonna slow. We're gonna go through it slowly. But it feels like that in your body.
- [23:32]
Lisa
Yeah, it just, you know, there. It's. And then I would ask myself, well, will I ever really feel like, what. What does that feel like?
- [23:41]
Thais Gibson
Good. Well, I'm going to take you through it. We're going to. I'll take you through a process. If I interrupt you a little bit in advance, I apologize, but. So I don't have value. So try to just sit with that. So just yes or no, can you 100% know that he's not there because you don't have value.
- [23:59]
Lisa
At the time? I mean. Yeah, that's the way I definitely felt.
- [24:04]
Thais Gibson
Okay.
- [24:04]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [24:05]
Thais Gibson
Good. So you feel very much like that's true. And so I want to just look at it a little bit deeper. So could there be another reason that he's not there, other than him thinking you're not valuable enough to be there with you? What else was going on? What was. What was leading up to that?
- [24:25]
Lisa
Priorities were different.
- [24:28]
Thais Gibson
That. Yeah. You said he lost his passport.
- [24:32]
Lisa
Well, we. We had just moved. Yeah. So pretty much everything that we had was put in a bin, like a. One of those big moving van trucks, storage. Because we were downsizing and. And I think he. He just didn't realize that he didn't have it with him when we went from Florida to North Carolina. So the day before we were going to leave, he couldn't find it because, you know, we were all ready to, like, next day go. And he's like, I can't find my passport.
- [25:08]
Thais Gibson
And as much as like, we would want him to be in that situation where he's, like, thinking ahead, you know, and able to plan and think about that. Do you think his absence of doing that was because he felt that you weren't valuable enough to be there during your mother's passing? Or do you think there might have been something else, like he's a little scatterbrained sometimes, or just really, truly slipped his mind? And it was a. Yeah, I think
- [25:32]
Lisa
it was an honest mistake. It was a. You know, because there was so much going on and. But I didn't really want to hear that at the time. It was. It was like, how could you not. You know, it hurts so much.
- [25:49]
Thais Gibson
Of course.
- [25:49]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [25:50]
Thais Gibson
And. And when you believe that, when you invest in that idea, like, okay, I wasn't valuable enough to him, and that's why he forgot what happens in your body. What does that feel like?
- [26:00]
Lisa
Well, I think it goes back to even the childhood feeling of just being left alone and abandoned again.
- [26:08]
Thais Gibson
And it feels terrible to care.
- [26:10]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [26:11]
Thais Gibson
And just for a moment, if you could imagine without that idea that he thinks you don't have value and that's why he didn't there. He wasn't there without that story that he didn't think that you were valuable enough to plan for his passport. What do you feel instead?
- [26:40]
Lisa
Again, I go back to the. Like, my subconscious just is kind of like, you didn't. You didn't prepare enough, and therefore, I'm. I'm again alone. And that's okay.
- [26:58]
Thais Gibson
Try to stay with me. Don't worry. There's no right or wrong answer. But just notice if you can have this moment of stepping out of the story that he didn't think that you had value, and that's why he forgot is like he truly. Like, he sat there and thought, oh, this is not valuable enough to me. Not gonna bother trying to prepare without that story. Do you feel any differently just sitting in that for a moment? What would you feel towards yourself or to him?
- [27:25]
Lisa
I mean, I. I guess I would say it was like, it's not such a big deal. You know, people make mistakes, and I should be able to be more forgiving and look at it like, I'm a big, big girl. I can do this on my own.
- [27:41]
Thais Gibson
Or, you made a really bad mistake, Steve, and it is a really big deal.
- [27:45]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [27:45]
Thais Gibson
And that hurt me a lot. But it doesn't mean that I'm not valuable as a person. Right. Big mistake, painful mistake, excruciating mistake. A big one right up there top mistakes. You could probably make. But what's really interesting to me is that there's a separation between the pain of that mistake and how that hurts and how that lands versus how much you are making it mean that you are inherently unvaluable because of that mistake or unworthy. And that's what I'm sort of digging in here for a second because big mistake. And I think you're very valid in feeling hurt by that and terrible timing. Right. That's one of the worst times to make a mistake. But I want to keep poking for a few minutes at the.
- [28:28]
Lisa
You're poking the bear.
- [28:30]
Thais Gibson
It's good. This is where the work happens.
- [28:33]
Lisa
Yeah. So.
- [28:34]
Thais Gibson
So let's look for just a second. So. So you're not valuable to him. Okay. Can you 100% know that you are not valuable to him?
- [28:44]
Lisa
No, I can't. I. I know that today that that's not true.
- [28:48]
Thais Gibson
And I'd like to look for like real evidence. So what do you have from today? From any point in your 22 plus year relationship with him since, you know, it's been a couple years, since the 22 years, what evidence do you have that you are valuable to him?
- [29:03]
Lisa
Well, just his, I think, continued prayer that we would reconcile and that despite me just shutting down totally and, you know. No, no, no, no. For two years almost that, you know, it's never going to happen. You know, for our 21st anniversary, it was like, had all these beautiful flowers.
- [29:36]
Thais Gibson
Okay, good. So stay, stay still for one second. So don't worry. I want to make sure we don't like intellectualize and rush through. So. So let's just look at the first one. So here's your husband and he makes a big mistake and you end up in an extramarital affair. And even though you have an affair, and even though you say, no, no, no, absolutely not, this is done, he still is continuing to pray that you'll be back with him and that you'll return to him. And would somebody do that to somebody or with somebody that they thought was not valuable?
- [30:15]
Lisa
Oh, absolutely not.
- [30:16]
Thais Gibson
I want you to picture him for a moment and, you know, there's you and you're off, you're living your life and there's him and maybe he's, you know, before bed he misses you and there he is and he prays before bed that, okay, we're gonna get back, you know, I'm just gonna have faith and I'm gonna pray that, that we'll come back to each other again. And, you know, noticing like what he might have felt at the time or experienced maybe that heartbreak and still just never giving up. And when you think of that, what do you feel?
- [30:49]
Lisa
Oh, it's. That's what revives me now today too, is that knowing that he didn't give up on me and us and our marriage, despite me, you know, insisting on getting divorced and. And telling him that, you know, I'm. I'm done. But that in itself, and now today too, it's like we look at each other and. And it's just like this ignite ignited passion. Not. Not in the physical sense as much as more in the spiritual, loving, loving way that I kind of recognize now that I didn't see in him before.
- [31:37]
Thais Gibson
Yeah. How much he's.
- [31:38]
Lisa
Yeah. Now I'm going to use the tissue.
- [31:41]
Thais Gibson
That's okay. Good.
- [31:42]
Lisa
Yeah. Yeah.
- [31:44]
Thais Gibson
And, you know, somebody doesn't love like that or wait like that or keep trying like that when they're being pushed and pushed. And what I hear is that no matter how much you pushed, he, like, refused to give up, like almost unconditionally loved you. And just notice what that feels like. What does that feel like when you tap into that for a moment?
- [32:05]
Lisa
Well, that emptiness that I felt in the drive up by myself is now been replaced with that feeling of the love, the care that I'm wanted.
- [32:26]
Thais Gibson
Yes, very much so.
- [32:28]
Lisa
Yeah. Yeah.
- [32:29]
Thais Gibson
And maybe he wasn't showing in the way that you need, and maybe he made a really big mistake. And, you know, ideally would have had the passport and made a big mistake, but that big mistake is, I think, very separate from how much he loves you and sees your value.
- [32:43]
Lisa
Oh, yeah.
- [32:44]
Thais Gibson
And so we'll keep going through some other stories here, but I want to go to you first before we do so where do you see your value? Because, you know, I sense that maybe you said I couldn't see him seeing my value. And it's hard to notice that somebody wants you or loves you when we're seeing our world through the stories that we carry from our childhood. Right. Where you felt unvalued and you didn't get love in the way that you needed. And some of the trauma that was there, that our subconscious is like the lens we see the world through. So we see the world through that lens. Then, of course, you end up feeling like when someone makes a big mistake, they must not value me. And that must be why. Because we bring up and project back up these. These old stories. And so I want you to take a moment, just look at, like, where do you have value? So there you are in your car.
- [33:33]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [33:34]
Thais Gibson
And it's a very hard day, a very hard moment of life, probably right up there with some of the hardest. And where do you have value as a person?
- [33:49]
Lisa
I'm a very kind person.
- [33:51]
Thais Gibson
So let's. Let's not.
- [33:52]
Lisa
Not, I mean, character traits. No, you don't. You're not talking about that sort of thing, Right?
- [33:59]
Thais Gibson
Yeah, I'm gonna get into that. Let me. Let me ask you this instead first.
- [34:02]
Lisa
Okay.
- [34:04]
Thais Gibson
Because I noticed you. You go to, like, the. The mind more and don't sit in it as much. There you are in the car, and Steve makes a big mistake. And I want to just try this one on for a second and see if this lands. There is me driving in the car, and I am not seeing my value. How does that come up for you in that moment? Where. Where do you not see your value in the car?
- [34:37]
Lisa
I'm not sure how to answer that, because I. I think a lot of times in the past I've looked, let's say, to men for my value. And so if. If I. I felt like I've lost a certain value in this relationship, then I'm going to look for it through another relationship.
- [35:01]
Thais Gibson
That's exactly it.
- [35:02]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [35:03]
Thais Gibson
And so there you are driving, and my worth, my value is dependent on how men feel towards me. My husband makes a big mistake, and I immediately go to, well, then I must not have value. And so there you are driving in the car, already going through so much with mom and the loss that you're experiencing, and just. Just to add the cherry on top, you're just going to toss your value out the window while you're driving because you've made your entire value about how Steve shows up for you in that moment.
- [35:37]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [35:38]
Thais Gibson
And I'm curious if that comes up as this sort of theme. And you can almost see in that moment how you throw your value out, because Steve hasn't shown me the value in the way that I need it. Even though it's there, we know beneath the surface of the mistake that it's there. But then I see that being this void now, like, I've lost my value. And then somebody comes and I will get into who and what that was like. But I'm assuming somebody comes and builds you up and makes you feel valued. You, and that's part of what's gonna happen later on. Is that correct?
- [36:11]
Lisa
Yes.
- [36:11]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [36:12]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [36:13]
Thais Gibson
And so noticing. And from 1 to 10, like, how strong of a pattern is that throughout your life of, oh, I derive my value through men instead of Actually sitting and being able to say, like, Steve made a bad mistake, and I can get to him about that. But. But it doesn't take my value away as a person. Oh.
- [36:32]
Lisa
I probably say it's pretty, pretty high up there, like in a 10, because even as a teenager, that's, you know, that was a pattern for me.
- [36:45]
Thais Gibson
And so this part of you that's scared to trust. Right. Oh, I don't trust myself to not repeat patterns. I don't trust myself. Well, yeah. If you constantly get your value exclusively through other people, it feels like your value is so fragile.
- [36:59]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [36:59]
Thais Gibson
And it feels like, oh, my gosh, how could I trust that? I won't. Because until your value comes back to what you're seeing yourself as and who you're choosing to be and actually show up for yourself internally, then the value is all based on everything external.
- [37:15]
Lisa
Yes.
- [37:15]
Thais Gibson
And it feels more fragile and kind of always moving.
- [37:19]
Lisa
Right. And I'm not understanding enough of my own value, and I'm allowing everyone else to have control over what my value is. Not everyone else, but. But other people instead of me.
- [37:36]
Thais Gibson
And then somebody comes along and they give you lots of value, and it feels like, oh, my gosh, I've been waiting for this. I have. I don't, I don't have a feeling of this inside. And so, no, now it feels more like, oh, maybe I can't trust myself to stay with myself and honor not repeating patterns.
- [37:50]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [37:51]
Thais Gibson
And so I want you to just, Just so far, notice that it's very hard to see that somebody values you when you're busy making how they behave. Determine exactly what your value is.
- [38:08]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [38:09]
Thais Gibson
Because the moment they make a mistake, which humans make mistakes, it feels like it directly assaults your value. Does that make sense? Directly attacks your value. And so, you know, let's look a little deeper now where your value is. So without anybody, without Steve, without anything to do with your family. Like what? Who are you as a person when nobody's watching, when nobody's around that actually has value?
- [38:34]
Lisa
I'm very organized. I, I multitask. I get a lot done. I, I great administrator. So I, I've, you know, I see that sort of thing as a value.
- [38:48]
Thais Gibson
What do you value about yourself?
- [38:51]
Lisa
I'm an excellent chef, so you're giving
- [38:55]
Thais Gibson
me lots of good answers, which is good. But what do you value about you? So I'll give you an example. So I would say something I value about myself is that when things are difficult, I don't give up on myself. I'll dig deep. I'll find answers, I'll figure things out. And I value that about myself. That that's a form of me honoring myself. And I'm curious, like, what are those things about you where you're like, I value that I'm. That I am this way in a hard time, in a tough moment. Those things that are really a deep essence of who you are that you like about yourself.
- [39:33]
Lisa
Yeah, I'm working on that.
- [39:36]
Thais Gibson
Well, we're gonna sit in that for a minute.
- [39:39]
Lisa
I think I'm very critical of myself and I have been. And so, I mean, I can. I can list, you know, like, character traits that are good or whatever, but I. I tend to sit on the negative a lot. Like, I procrastinate. I don't finish, you know, reading this book that I started. I. Yeah, I think I'm very.
- [40:06]
Thais Gibson
I gave myself a hard time for all the books I never finished. I have a lot of nitpicking to do and myself.
- [40:13]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [40:13]
Thais Gibson
So.
- [40:13]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [40:14]
Thais Gibson
So let's look for a second together. So one thing I noticed about you is this, like, very profound courage to be vulnerable. That was one of the first things that stood out to me about you. And I've always seen when somebody's able to just be so vulnerable and so authentic and so real. I've always seen that as something that in people leads to profound ability to grow. Because if you can't be radically honest with yourself and really look and really be vulnerable, it's very hard to grow.
- [40:42]
Lisa
And that's something that's. Vulnerability is something that's actually been very new for me. It hasn't been. It's within the last, I would say, year and a half because I've always had such a guard up. And it's been just through, you know, some of the. The work I've been doing the last eight months or so too, is like, I've recognized if I don't shed some of this, then I'm not going to be happy.
- [41:10]
Thais Gibson
Yes.
- [41:11]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [41:12]
Thais Gibson
It's so true. And it's such a powerful, powerful thing too, because it's not easy to be vulnerable.
- [41:16]
Lisa
No.
- [41:17]
Thais Gibson
But it's beautiful. And how has that helped you in your life so far, too?
- [41:19]
Lisa
Well, I think. Yeah. For healing, for me, it's been, you know, like a transformation.
- [41:27]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [41:27]
Lisa
Because I. I recognize that, you know, in the past, it was always I was running away from so much, and. And that's where I. I recognize too, that, you know, I gotta stop running.
- [41:43]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [41:43]
Lisa
Because if I don't, you know, you'll never have roots yeah, yeah.
- [41:49]
Thais Gibson
And try this on for just a second. So imagine there's you driving in the car and Steve forgets the passport and you're there alone and. And you, you know, now you're driving and you call him and you say instead of, you know, and we can get into what you said or did, but instead of maybe pushing away or closing up or just driving or maybe pushing him off after that and putting walls up, you said, we're gonna really have to work on this, Steve. Cause this really deeply hurt me. And I really needed you. And this is very heartbreaking for me right now. And I'm gonna need some, like, making up here where you help me see that you love, that you care. And I need some expression of that more so that. So that we can get over this. Would that have been something that might have not caused as deep pain to be carried for so long had you been more vulnerable at that?
- [42:41]
Lisa
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I see that now that if I had shared the pain that I felt at that time more, and not just, you know, like, okay, fine, you know, I'll do this by myself.
- [42:55]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [42:56]
Lisa
I'm used to it always.
- [42:57]
Thais Gibson
I can do it on my own. It's fine. Who cares? Nobody cares anyway. So it's just up to me.
- [43:02]
Lisa
And if I had approached it differently, then I think we would be at a much different place and you wouldn't
- [43:10]
Thais Gibson
have hurt you as much. Right. That's such a heavy pain to carry on your own. Right. On your own, when clearly Steve very much values you and deeply loves you, but we lose any piece of even recognizing that when that story's so strong.
- [43:28]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [43:28]
Thais Gibson
Right. So I love that you've been vulnerable. I think that's so powerful and it's very life changing. I went through that lesson at one point in my life too. And. And what else do you see about yourself? I also see you as somebody who's growing, who's got a beautiful relationship to God, who's a beautiful member of your community and being of service to others. And I want you to just sort of sit in some of those. What pops up about things about you that you love, that you get joy from or even intrinsic value from being out in the world that way.
- [43:59]
Lisa
I think it's serving others. That's a huge.
- [44:01]
Thais Gibson
Feels good in your heart.
- [44:02]
Lisa
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like when you can. When you can help somebody else, you know, whether it's achieve goals for them or even something as simple as, you know, some of the mission work that I've done. You know, watching young children growing, you know, where they've, they've got a chance where they wouldn't have had before. That's something that really gives me a lot of, I guess, reward and purpose. Purpose. Yeah, yeah.
- [44:40]
Thais Gibson
And I want you to think of a moment where you were of service to a child and do you have a moment in your mind? Will you tell me about it for a second?
- [44:50]
Lisa
This was about probably seven years ago. There was a little baby that was brought to us for one of our mission trip clinics. We do these kind of like village outreaches where they're, you know, no electricity, no water, and, and people will come to where we set up these mobile clinics. So this, this lady had brought this little, little baby to one of the clinics.
- [45:25]
Thais Gibson
And
- [45:28]
Lisa
his distended belly, he was very severely malnourished. His hair had turned like white from, you know, not, not having enough food. And, and she said that he had been locked in the neighbor's little wood hut or, you know, and so she brought him to the clinic so we could, you know, maybe do something for him. But the doctors there had said, well, sorry, there's nothing we can do because we can't, you know, treat him here. So we made arrangements. We ended up taking him to three different hospitals in, in Kampala. And the third one, they said, yes, we can look after him. And it was a matter of him staying there for like four months.
- [46:24]
Thais Gibson
Wow.
- [46:24]
Lisa
To get to survive, to, you know, proper nourishment, to help him get back to normal. And, and now today I get pictures of him. We've helped him with a scholarship and he's a tall, good looking young boy. And so that to me is like, yay, God. You know, that recognizing at the time, you know, it was like, well, at first we thought, well, we can't help him at this clinic. And then it was kind of like we weren't sure what we could do. But you know, it was kind of like being, you know, consistent, not giving up, not giving up. And, and it's one of those little stories. His name was Moses, so he's my Moses baby.
- [47:18]
Thais Gibson
I love that.
- [47:19]
Lisa
And the last year when I was in Uganda, I got to spend, spend some time with him. And it's got beautiful smile like yours and it just, that's something that I just feel really blessed that I've had
- [47:34]
Thais Gibson
that experience and notice that for a second. So, so go into, that's such a beautiful story and go into that moment where you see him, right? And there you are and you are you personally escorting him to the different hospitals taking him. So notice, like, imagine that little boy, and there he is, and he is just really struggling. And imagine what it's like from his perspective to see you like an angel, going and taking him and never giving up and knowing that, like, in the amount of suffering he was experiencing, probably a lot of pain physically, a lot of what he's going through, and to know that someone's there, like, not giving up on him, taking him from place to place, being persistent, and, you know, you can sort of imagine when you look into his eyes or have those exchanges with him, that he feels this deep sense of like, okay, thank God somebody's caring for me. Somebody's here for me. And that's just such a beautiful. You obviously have an incredible value to him in that moment. Yeah, it's beautiful. And. And is there anywhere else in your life that you see that you have value to somebody who matters to you?
- [48:39]
Lisa
I think my son.
- [48:41]
Thais Gibson
Okay, so let's look at. That's a pretty good one.
- [48:44]
Lisa
I would hope you would say that, too.
- [48:45]
Thais Gibson
And what's a good moment that you have with him where you really felt like he had that. That he valued you so much? Was there any specific moment that comes to mind?
- [49:03]
Lisa
I. I tend to repeat to him this story that when he went off to college and, you know, he had these roommates, and there was something where he's like, mom, you know, I really appreciate you now because you would tell us about, you know, doing the dishes and cleaning up after yourself and. And, you know, being a single mom. That was something. He was, you know, a latchkey kid, too, where he had to sometimes go home when I was at work and he was by himself. And so he. He learned very quickly, you know, laundry, cooking for a snack, and things like that. And he's. He was like. He was complaining about his roommates. Yeah. And their sloppiness and leaving the dishes. College boys.
- [49:53]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [49:54]
Lisa
And. And so it was kind of like an appreciation that it made me feel good because even as a parent, sometimes you get tired of always, you know, repeating, clean up after yourself and do your dishes.
- [50:09]
Thais Gibson
But he learned.
- [50:09]
Lisa
Yeah. Life skills and those life skills. I think that he came back later and said that, you know, I really appreciate that you hounded those into me.
- [50:22]
Thais Gibson
That's beautiful. And there's this old saying that optimal growth occurs at the border between support and challenge. If somebody has everything done for them, they're always supported, they never get challenged, and then they go away and they're like, oh, where's somebody to do it for me. And so having moments where he had to kind of do these things and step into those things obviously served him in becoming a man.
- [50:40]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [50:41]
Thais Gibson
So powerful.
- [50:41]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [50:42]
Thais Gibson
That's really beautiful. So where do you. Okay. It's very clear. And we could spend a lot of time here. I'm sure you could come up with endless evidence, but it's very clear that, like, you're very valued and that you have a lot of value as a person. And I want to just look at sort of the practical side of this for a second. Where do you give your value away? Is it specifically when you just outsource it to other people, to men? And if so, how can you honor your value more? So that could look like being kinder to yourself on a regular basis, maybe prioritizing yourself a little bit more. If you over prioritize other people at the expense of yourself having better boundaries sometimes, what comes up in a daily practice that you can do to honor your value,
- [51:29]
Lisa
that's a good segue into. The first thing I think of is, you know, doing things for myself that I procrastinate or don't do or make time. Like whether it's exercise or personal care or personal reading or things like that, it's like I'm task oriented a lot, so it's like I want to get these things done. And then at the end of the day it's like, oh, well, Lisa, you didn't get to do the things for yourself that you, you kind of wanted to do today.
- [52:01]
Thais Gibson
Okay.
- [52:02]
Lisa
And I do know that I, I don't prioritize, you know, my personal needs that way.
- [52:11]
Thais Gibson
And how would it feel if Steve or someone in your life who was a meaningful relationship said, oh, Lisa, we're gonna do these things you want to do today. And then each day passes and you never do those things. You would feel kind of let down or like that person doesn't really value you very much.
- [52:29]
Lisa
Yeah. Yeah.
- [52:30]
Thais Gibson
And so what would be a practice? You know, could you start by doing those things first during the day? Like before you do? Maybe you'll have more energy to do all the task oriented things. What would be like a tweak that you could make there in a practical.
- [52:42]
Lisa
Yeah, I think that's definitely like, instead of, you know, starting in the kitchen and cleaning and planning and laundry. And again, I think it goes back to the value thing too. It's where I, you know, a lot of times I would place the value on myself with what I have accomplished.
- [53:07]
Thais Gibson
Yes.
- [53:07]
Lisa
And not enough about, like, who I Am. Yeah.
- [53:12]
Thais Gibson
What I actually need and that there's no better way. Like, it's so interesting because when it comes to reprogramming, actually rewiring, I am worthy or I am valuable. We want to do 21 days of repetition and emotion. We can pull from all the places that we see. People value us in our lives, and we can pull from Steve and we can work through that story that he doesn't value. And there's a lot of good relief there. But the actual rewiring, ultimately, it's one of the only rewiring tools that to actually recondition your value, it can't be based on, I achieved these five things because we're just reinforcing the program. So it's actually really from a practical standpoint of how you honor yourself. Like, it's, what do I do on a daily basis for my routines, my self care? And nothing makes you feel like you are worthy more than you prioritizing yourself first, especially with the things that fill up your cup. So. So is there something you can practice there for 21 days?
- [54:05]
Lisa
Yeah, I think. I think even just something like first thing in the morning, going for a walk and spending like, at least, you know, 45 minutes or something like that, where it's walking or exercise or.
- [54:18]
Thais Gibson
Beautiful.
- [54:19]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [54:20]
Thais Gibson
Listening to a podcast that you like or something that uplifts, even if it's good music while you walk. Something to get multiple needs met at the same time. That's beautiful. Is that something you can see yourself sitting in and practicing?
- [54:31]
Lisa
Yeah. Yeah.
- [54:31]
Thais Gibson
Beautiful.
- [54:32]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [54:32]
Thais Gibson
So I think that's a really good place to start with the valuable piece. Right. So I just want to go back and. And I'll put some key takeaways at the end for. For the valuable one. But when you look at this idea, that first idea that I'm driving in the car and Steve doesn't think I'm valuable and that's why this happened. How strong does that feel from 1 to 10 right now?
- [54:56]
Lisa
Oh, it's probably diminished down to like a four.
- [55:00]
Thais Gibson
Yeah, yeah. And that four that's left will be you meeting your needs. That'll be what's left of me seeing my value. Beautiful. And it was like a 10 originally, maybe, or.
- [55:08]
Lisa
Yeah, yeah.
- [55:09]
Thais Gibson
And so. So we're gonna go through another one. Okay. So. So, because what happens is we have these stories, right? And if you watch the thread, we develop these stories, we acquire them in early childhood. They condition our subconscious mind. And then in the most acute moments of later life, any point in life, we Pull from the past. So when there's something we don't understand or we're hurt over, we jump to these old conditioned conclusions. And then it has just such a profound ripple out effect because now we think all of our values based on this. And now we can never see Steve the same again. And now, and I'm going to actually ask you this before we move to the next one. When you met the person, your high school sweetheart again, would you say one of the big things they brought is it made it feel like that person valued you and that's part of what pulled you in.
- [55:54]
Lisa
Oh, absolutely.
- [55:54]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [55:55]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [55:56]
Thais Gibson
And so we have this deep imprint from the past that's been activated in the present. We. When Steve's not there, Steve made a bad mistake. Right. And a very hurtful mistake. And it wasn't necessarily that Steve didn't think you're valuable. But our mind latches onto that, then it causes deeper imprinting. Now we see Steve through that story forever until we go in and question and work through these things. And now the entire trajectory of the relationship with Steve changes. And it's not his or your fault. He made a big mistake and it really activated this thing in you. It's a co created experience together. But that's exactly why then somebody comes along in an extramarital affair, they bring the value and you're just trying to escape from the pain. Right. So there's this innocence in it.
- [56:39]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [56:39]
Thais Gibson
And this part of you that said, especially from your programming, your conditioning growing up, you said I would outsource my value to men. And so. Okay, well, if I can't see my value, and I think my value is just based on if Steve is there for me, then of course all of that ties together. Do you see that whole thread all the way through?
- [56:55]
Lisa
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
- [56:56]
Thais Gibson
Yeah. And there's a beautiful innocence in it, honestly, of how all of that comes together. So we'll. We'll leave some practical things at the end. Do you want to go through one more story here?
- [57:05]
Lisa
Sure.
- [57:05]
Thais Gibson
Okay, so we have unloved. Alone. Didn't care. Not good enough. Abandoned.
- [57:13]
Lisa
Abandoned is probably
- [57:17]
Thais Gibson
what I recommend. Okay, so there you are, okay. In the car, and you're. You're driving on the way to seeing your mom. And in that moment, Steve has abandoned you. Okay. And what does that feel like in your body?
- [57:36]
Lisa
Oh, it's. It's just like this. Like, you know when you're gonna faint and you feel like all the blood's kind of like.
- [57:47]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [57:48]
Lisa
Draining out of you.
- [57:49]
Thais Gibson
Y. Yeah, definitely.
- [57:51]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [57:52]
Thais Gibson
And so there he is, and there you are, and he's back in. In Florida, and you're driving, and he has fully abandoned me. Can I 100% know that that's true?
- [58:12]
Lisa
Well, today, no.
- [58:14]
Thais Gibson
Okay, good. Yeah. And in that moment. Right. He's not physically there with you.
- [58:20]
Lisa
Right.
- [58:20]
Thais Gibson
But he has abandoned you in that moment. Is it true?
- [58:23]
Lisa
Well, it was true for me at that time, for sure. Yeah, it was very true. Yeah.
- [58:29]
Thais Gibson
And. And so what happens to you when you. When you feed into that story, he has abandoned me.
- [58:34]
Lisa
Oh, it perpetuated for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It grows.
- [58:39]
Thais Gibson
Yes. Big time. Like poison. And. And if for a moment, just in theory, if you didn't have that story that he abandoned you, what would you feel in the car when you're driving?
- [58:56]
Lisa
Probably just really pissed off. Yeah. Yeah.
- [58:59]
Thais Gibson
He made a big mistake.
- [59:00]
Lisa
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [59:01]
Thais Gibson
And. And maybe you would even call him and tell him.
- [59:06]
Lisa
Mm, I'm mad.
- [59:07]
Thais Gibson
You made a big mistake, and I'm really upset right now. And if you called him, would he answer?
- [59:17]
Lisa
Not always.
- [59:18]
Thais Gibson
But in that moment and driving in the car.
- [59:24]
Lisa
Well, realistically, probably not. Just because, you know, this reception was bad.
- [59:31]
Thais Gibson
Okay, that's okay. That's okay. But let's. Let's play it out for a second. So you're driving. You're in the car for. For a few days, probably, and you're driving. And if you had called him and he didn't answer, even. Reception was bad, whatever's going on. But you said, I really need to talk. I'm very upset.
- [59:49]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [59:49]
Thais Gibson
We need to work through this. I'm very hurt. I need to know that I'm valued. I need some big reassurance because I do not feel like this right now. And I'm mad. I feel like you're not here, and I really needed you. Would he have eventually, when you had it.
- [60:01]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [60:02]
Thais Gibson
Would he have sat okay?
- [60:04]
Lisa
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And he's. He's always been a good listener when I'm willing to share, to talk and be vulnerable, even though we are both kind of conflict avoiders. But I think in that time, if. If I had been more honest with my feelings at the time, you know, the outcome would have been different. Yeah.
- [60:32]
Thais Gibson
And it may not have been available to you at that time, and that's okay.
- [60:36]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [60:36]
Thais Gibson
But does that mean that he fully, fully abandoned you?
- [60:42]
Lisa
No.
- [60:42]
Thais Gibson
No, he really did because he was still there. He wasn't physically there. Yeah, but had you needed him, he might have shown up, even if it was from a distance. Is that fair?
- [60:51]
Lisa
Yes. Yes.
- [60:53]
Thais Gibson
And what's the opposite to you of abandon? Is it connected? Is it cared? Is it consistent? What's the opposite there for you?
- [61:04]
Lisa
Present.
- [61:05]
Thais Gibson
Present. And when you look at times with Steve in the marriage in general, up until now, where is there a sense of him being present with you?
- [61:20]
Lisa
I think when, when I'm expressive enough with my needs, he's there, he's present. Yeah.
- [61:33]
Thais Gibson
And that's a good thing to know.
- [61:35]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [61:35]
Thais Gibson
Because that means you have control over it. Right. And where, where do you abandon yourself with Steve?
- [61:47]
Lisa
Ooh, that's a tough question. Where do I abandon myself? I think in the past it's been when, when I, I feel like our emotional connection is not alive, then that's where I just kind of shut down too.
- [62:11]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [62:12]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [62:13]
Thais Gibson
And then you go, I'm not going to bother telling you my needs.
- [62:15]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [62:16]
Thais Gibson
And how much does that skew with like him not knowing you need something and then you feeling hard and just shutting down versus you actually going to him and clearly and consistently articulating your needs and then him still shutting down and not being present, does it lean one direction?
- [62:32]
Lisa
Well, has in the past where, you know, there's not been that communication, which again, it's so unfair to think, think somebody else is going to again read your mind or know what your needs are if you're not vulnerable enough to share them. And I think there was a part of me even that was afraid to share my needs because then if they
- [63:00]
Thais Gibson
weren't met, it's so confronting.
- [63:03]
Lisa
It's. Yeah. It's like, well then, then what is this?
- [63:09]
Thais Gibson
And it will only feel that scary to share your needs as long as you are sourcing your value based on other people's responses to you.
- [63:18]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [63:19]
Thais Gibson
Because if you're like, I'm valuable and you show that to yourself consistently and build that in by prioritizing yourself and self caring and doing things that fill your cup. And now you have this inherent sense of self worth. It's irrespective of other people. Then when you get into relationship and you're like, I'm going to express my needs because I am a valuable person who deserves to have my needs met and I'm going to move that way in the world, then you are only ever vetting by people's responses to you where they belong in your life.
- [63:47]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [63:48]
Thais Gibson
And if they don't meet your needs and they were to consistently, not when you express them, then it's just obvious that it's maybe not a good fit for you.
- [63:54]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [63:54]
Thais Gibson
And then it's simple, but it gets really complicated and convoluted when we get into, oh, I can't say anything, and they should know. And so if I do say something, it's too much. Or what if they don't? If I do? And then we get into that.
- [64:08]
Lisa
You're into my head right now when you're saying that stuff.
- [64:12]
Thais Gibson
I've been there. That's why. And so it's messy, and it makes things hard. And then we get. Because we're in this gray area, we outsource our value onto others, and we're like, okay, our value is about how people respond. But I'm too scared to ask. And it's just. It's a losing battle 100% of the time. Yeah. So going back there. So I abandoned myself around Steve. Sometimes when I don't communicate my needs, I abandoned myself. How else in my life. How did you have been yourself at that time in the car?
- [64:44]
Lisa
Well, I. I didn't even recognize those needs in itself. Like, I wasn't even able to.
- [64:55]
Thais Gibson
To see myself.
- [64:56]
Lisa
Yeah. Yeah. This. Like, analyze it in this. In the sense of, like, okay, why are you feeling this way? Why are you getting so emotional about this? And then where's it coming from? You know? And. And I think I'm maybe better equipped today than I was two, three years ago with that. Just because I. I'm paying more attention to these triggers when they come up and. And trying to, like, stop and take a deep breath and say, well, where is this coming from?
- [65:31]
Thais Gibson
And what do I need to feel better?
- [65:33]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [65:34]
Thais Gibson
And I want you to imagine this world in which, like, you look at you and you look at the. The threat of your life. And you went through hard things as a child. You went through a lot of difficult things. And of course, you're going to feel the sense of abandonment, but nobody's gonna fix that for you. Except for you. Not Steve, not any other man, not any other experience. It's gonna be you making sure that when you are in pain like that, and you can imagine you being that child outside on the clothes hanger. And, like, that's a very painful thing. But you have a different opportunity now to give that to your inner child as an adult, which is to. What did I need in those moments where that happened? I needed somebody to see me so badly, probably needed somebody to. To be present with me, to just sit with me. And, like, the only person that's ever gonna do that enough for you is gonna be you in each of those moments. And so if you Imagine, like, there's you when you're in the car, and you stop everything you're doing. You're like, I am in so much pain. I need to just pause for a minute. I need to sit. I need to see what's going on inside of me. I am feeling abandoned. I am feeling not valued. I'm very upset with Steve. This is a big mistake. This really hurt me. And you're able to sit and actually reinforce like, no, no, I'm not abandoning myself. I'm here with myself now. I'm sitting with my emotions. And, okay, what do I need? I need to give Steve a call and give him a hard time, and I need to let him know that this was very hurtful. And I'm. You know what, Steve? I'm gonna need some reassurance, and I'm gonna need a little bit of extra consistency going forward and some presence with a ce. And you advocate for those in your marriage, and you advocate for those in your life, and there's you supporting you. When you don't abandon you and you value you enough to sit with yourself and do those things and then be a representative for yourself out in the world and what you need, then it's very hard to not feel as valued by other people because it's coming from the right place. Does that all make sense?
- [67:37]
Lisa
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
- [67:40]
Thais Gibson
So one of the key takeaways here that you're seeing is that one of the ways that we keep these old wounds alive is also through the ways that we treat ourselves. In other words, if you felt unimportant or unworthy growing up, it's very easy to keep treating ourselves that way by doing things like deprioritizing ourselves or putting our own feelings and needs and boundaries last. But the good news is that the actual way to change this is to start doing the opposite. In other words, you can see here with Lisa that by going into how she can make herself feel worthy and like a priority on a daily basis and taking consistent action across time. Consistent action across time with an emotional output fires and wires new neural networks in our brain. And so her taking action to rewire these old patterns won't just be healing for her, but will also be tremendously beneficial for her relationship. We're so quick to judge ourselves as human beings for our mistakes, but the reality is that often mistakes or challenges we experience in life are symptoms of something deeper. And when we look at Lisa's courageous and vulnerable share of having an extramarital affair, what we see here is that There's a deeper story that needed to be tapped into and understood and that the affair was simply a symptom of deeply, deeply unmet needs that she didn't know how to convey or communicate to her husband. And so eventually, in our times of pain and hurt, we're very likely to act out of a relationship if we've been carrying deeply unmet needs for quite some time. So in this segment of the conversation, we're about to unpack the root needs that Lisa was deeply missing and how her mind tried to meet these needs outside of the marriage because she felt at a loss for what to do instead. And if you're listening in at home and may relate to some of these themes or patterns in any form, then it's a great opportunity to look at when you acted out in any kind of relationship or in any type of way, what needs were deeply unmet first that often sponsored that action or behavior. So I'd love to fast forward, and I'd love to go into the extra marital affair piece for a moment. And, you know, the main theme that I'd love to focus on is what needs were met. Because I'm gonna guess that maybe some of those needs that were met even could still be things that you could work on currently in your marriage. And I wanna make sure we collect out all those needs, and then we have strategies to communicate those needs to Steve going forward so that you feel like you're never at the mercy of these, you know, old wounds, but also unmet needs, and you are able to resource exactly what they are and build them and bring them into your marriage going forward.
- [70:21]
Lisa
Yeah, definitely. It was the. The kind of, like the romance side where, you know, the. When you first get married, it's like the honeymoon phase. You know, it's where you feel like there's passion and. And it's certainly not realistic to expect after 22 years of marriage that, you know, that. That romance is always this incredible chemistry spark. Yeah. Yeah.
- [70:54]
Thais Gibson
There's ways to build that in. In various ways. Yeah.
- [70:57]
Lisa
There's things that, you know, we've talked about, like, that are important to make sure that, you know, we do try to keep that alive. And, you know, whether it's date night or, you know, things like that, vacations, trips, where it's. It's focused on just us and not family and visiting friends or whatever. But I think at the time it was having someone give me attention that I wasn't feeling good.
- [71:32]
Thais Gibson
Very important.
- [71:32]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [71:33]
Thais Gibson
And it makes a lot of sense because you were feeling and I think that need is very valid. Right, like that need is extremely valid. I'm gonna guess that there was probably a good bit of that missing in terms of consistency and full presence, maybe from Steve. And at the exact same time, it's very hard to even feel attention when we believe from that moment forward that we are not valued by. Right. So you can see that blocks us from also receiving. There's like a two pronged dynamic happening. So attention, okay. And I think I really hear attention and correct me if this doesn't resonate, but attention in the form of presence, which came up being fully present, but I'm going to guess as well just knowing that you were fearful, avoidant, maybe depth. So asking meaningful questions, being curious about you, making you feel seen, maybe even validating your, your emotions sometimes are those things that are all part of that attention piece.
- [72:28]
Lisa
I like the word curious because, you know, we have to stay curious with each other. If we're not, then this sort of thing happens because of course somebody else is going to come along and, and be curious.
- [72:44]
Thais Gibson
Yes.
- [72:45]
Lisa
And yes. And so I, I think that there was that lack of curiosity and then the emotional dis. Detachment that we were experiencing.
- [72:58]
Thais Gibson
Yes.
- [72:58]
Lisa
Was lending room for the wandering of, you know.
- [73:04]
Thais Gibson
Well, yeah, exactly.
- [73:07]
Lisa
Somebody else is going to fill that bucket because you're not.
- [73:10]
Thais Gibson
And when you're feeling the sense of, okay, I don't feel valued and I feel abandoned, then it's easy for the mind to justify. This is how almost all affairs happen. They happen for very innocent reasons. Like people are feeling very hurt first for usually a long period of time. And then we get to this precipice where somebody comes in and suddenly meets all these needs and the mind is actually wired to go get its needs met. And so the remedy isn't to, you know, some people think that preventing. Because you mentioned not wanting to repeat patterns. Some people do this thing where they think, oh, I'm just gonna out will myself to make sure these don't happen. And it's like the affair is just a symptom of something. And so it's not about outwilling, it's about getting into the roots of what wasn't happening. That led my brain the way it's wired to seek its needs outside of the marriage by really getting clear on what those needs were and having excellent habits and strategies to reinforce those within the marriage itself more, more frequently.
- [74:04]
Lisa
Yeah, yeah.
- [74:05]
Thais Gibson
So we have attention, we have some really good. The curious piece is what stood out. What else felt like it was coming in through that affair that might have been missing with Steve.
- [74:19]
Lisa
Communication two was, was distant. So that.
- [74:24]
Thais Gibson
Do you mean like just talking on the phone, just consistency? Yeah, yeah.
- [74:28]
Lisa
The consistency again, you go back to like when you're dating or for, you know, it's like you're on the phone all the time, if you're talking on the phone, falling asleep together in different cities, you know, that sort of thing. But then it was like feeling like going, we're just roommates.
- [74:48]
Thais Gibson
Yes.
- [74:49]
Lisa
You know, and that.
- [74:51]
Thais Gibson
It's very hard.
- [74:52]
Lisa
Yeah. It just, it was, it, it kind of gives you that hopelessness, like, well, you know, I, I could just have another roommate.
- [75:00]
Thais Gibson
Yeah.
- [75:02]
Lisa
Who maybe was a little more fun. Yeah.
- [75:06]
Thais Gibson
And of course there's a part that's like, it's, it's not just the distance, it's that the distance also causes you pain and probably pain in a different cause. There's a grief there, there's a loss there.
- [75:17]
Lisa
Yeah. And an emptiness inside.
- [75:19]
Thais Gibson
An emptiness. And that is different for you, interestingly, than for somebody who might be more dismissive, avoidant, who actually sometimes feels sustained by the comfort and predictability and stability of relationship, who may have a different relationship to that happening. And so it's very common for dismissive ones in long term relationships and we'll maybe get into this in a couple sessions, but they feel very comfortable in just the status quo and they see love a lot through the lens of comfort and stability, just knowing we're always going to be there, just, you know, being comfortable around each other, not having to show up in certain ways. Okay. And so that gap in how we perceive and receive love through those needs is very confusing and it makes for like, we have to talk about these needs very consistently. And it's beautiful for both people because then you get to come towards a sense of stability and just consistency in things if you're asking for it. But you're forced more than anything to advocate for your needs, which is, is profoundly healing probably for you as a person in all relationships in the long run. Looking back, you'll see that the more I learn to advocate for my needs, the easier everything becomes in my life with all relationships. So he'll be your teacher for that and you'll be his teacher that, hey, you gotta come outta your comfort zone sometimes and meet me and stay curious and put that effort in consistently. And when that bridge is formed where you're doing that with and for each other and being intentional, it will strengthen the relationship in a very different way.
- [76:48]
Lisa
So one of the things we've started doing recently is daily check ins.
- [76:55]
Thais Gibson
Beautiful.
- [76:55]
Lisa
Where we, we start off with, you know, like what we appreciate, you know, like in the last 24 hours we've done for each other or seen in each other. What is something that we'd like to change or bring up that was not that great? What? There's like six different things. You know, we have like a list, you know, new information, like is there something that we forgot to tell you or me or, you know, each other
- [77:30]
Thais Gibson
happened in the day.
- [77:31]
Lisa
Yeah, beautiful. You know, got this appointment, I got a do this, whatever, you know, a prayer, need, that sort of thing. So it's been so beneficial just because it seems so kind of like childish in a way, but. But it's been really beautiful to see that, you know, we're now getting into the routine of it. And it, it is, it's. It's like this, you know, can be 20 minute, 10 minute check in. That helps us stay connected that we weren't for so long.
- [78:03]
Thais Gibson
And that helps you stay curious. Yeah, it gives you consistency, that makes you feel seen and known. That brings all of these themes into you, which is so powerful. And so I love that because that's a strategy to keep meeting your needs. And I see a lot of people do things like have a date night once a week where they'll have questions, they'll intentionally sit down. I actually do this with my husband. We intentionally ask each other new questions all the time. And we take turns having to come up with interesting questions. And it's so funny cause you'll sit down thinking, okay, we're gonna come up with three questions each. And usually after one or two good, you know, one good question on each side, you're like, the conversation's in some really interesting place. And it's, it's the art of always getting to know each other because you'll always change, you know, things will. You're not the person you were five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. And so having that as a staple is such a powerful thing.
- [78:48]
Lisa
Yeah, yeah.
- [78:49]
Thais Gibson
I couldn't even recommend a better habit than that, honestly. It's phenomenal.
- [78:52]
Lisa
Okay, I love that.
- [78:54]
Thais Gibson
So let's go through and just talk about sort of a summary here for a second because there's so many beautiful things. So one of the first ones being just working backwards, that the needs that were unmet from your relationship with Steve were probably being met by somebody. And the takeaway from that is to not blame or give yourself a hard time. It's to understand that that was a Symptom. And to look at it very factually, this is a symptom of something. And it actually sounds like you've already done a really good job of taking away those needs and then implementing them into your marriage. Is there anything else that we're missing in terms of needs? Maybe any like, physical affection, Anything there?
- [79:36]
Lisa
Probably at the time, a little bit, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just. There was so much going on between Steve retiring, selling a house, moving into a smaller place, doing renovations, living in renovations, my mother passing, his mother needing care and need. There were so much. We did a timeline and, and it was like so many things going on that it was kind of this light bulb went off and it's like. And then we look at where we started to kind of like separate lives and, and you know, was eye opening to recognize that this is where it kind of fit in. And it's. It's no wonder that when we lost that emotional connection because we weren't prioritizing because there were so many other things going on.
- [80:37]
Thais Gibson
And, and not only is it hard to prioritize when there's so much demanding your attention, but also I think for a fearful avoidant and dismissive avoidant, when fearful avoidance go through really hard times, they go through, you know, small hard times. They want connection from others, but really hard times. Fearful avoidance also become a bit of a turtle going into their shell and they kind of retreat. And then you have an avoidant who retreats. So both of you might have also retreated into your own selves a little bit just to cope and like it's human to go through these patterns. And of course it's going to put so much pressure on a marriage. You have to have so much support on the other side when a lot is going on to be able to come out through the other side unscathed, which is almost impossible.
- [81:15]
Lisa
And we're both like recognize now more the. The fact that we were conflict avoiders. So it was like that turtle, like you said, we would just go into our own little shell and you know, heart hide our feelings and emotions. And then it was just, okay, this is not good.
- [81:35]
Thais Gibson
Can't not become strangers eventually on some level, right? And what really stands out to me about your whole story is like how I think there was almost this deeper sense of unconditional love that was always there. Like you didn't really want to give up the okay, well, two months and two months we'll go back and forth. And it was almost like at a deeper level beneath the resentment and the pain And a lot of what happened right there was still this deep tie and this very beautiful love there. But that, you know, it's hard to see that when your mind is so busy with all of these other things and some of these very painful stories as well.
- [82:07]
Lisa
And I think too, the. For me, the. The feeling of the shame of being divorced again and. Or the affair more than anything was then, like, then we have to get divorced because there's no recovery from that. You know, it was like something that. I look at it now and it's like, no. When somebody's willing to do the work, you know, you gotta get through the shame and not be that your story. You've got to be able to change it around and not, you know, the dirty secret.
- [82:46]
Thais Gibson
And also the shame just comes from the story.
- [82:48]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [82:49]
Thais Gibson
Like, it's so funny because quite honestly, just hearing your entire story, the very first judgment I had on it was like, there must have been so much love. That was the very first thing I thought was just like, you know. And so that's just a neutral interpretation of it, you know. And so the shame is like what you carry when it's your relationship to it, when it's your story. Because you could see it as either. You could see it as like, we went through such a difficult time, all of these things. The loss of my mother, deep woundedness. That brought up a lot of things from my own childhood. Of course I'm gonna cope somehow. Cause that's what human beings do. And even with all of what happened, we still found our way back to each other. I mean, that's beautiful. That's such a powerful story. And so, you know, I would encourage you too, and we'll pull out some things to do after this, but to work through any stories that cause shame, because it could be seen as shameful if you make it mean something about you.
- [83:41]
Lisa
Right.
- [83:41]
Thais Gibson
But it's seen as beautiful if you see the whole story for what it is.
- [83:45]
Lisa
Yeah, it was really comforting for me because we went back to church together a month or so ago, and this one couple who. I really value their. Who they are, and they're, you know, they're huge mentors, people that, you know, stand out in our. In our churches. Just wonderful couple. And, you know, you. You kind of walk in wondering, like, who knows what. And. And we went to them after the service one Sunday and we asked for prayer because we were going to do a kind of a marriage intensive retreat together. And this woman, I. I really respect her a lot. And she looked at me and she was like, good for you, Lisa. And she, you know, I did not. I expected judgment, you know, and you go in walking and kind of thinking of that shame, the judgment. And she just like, she made me feel so. Not just relief, but it was like she, she actually accepted. Yeah, she was accepting. And she's like, good for you for not being prideful.
- [85:05]
Thais Gibson
Yes.
- [85:06]
Lisa
And. And I never thought about that word as being something to embrace because, you know, you do walk in a little bit with, you know, the Scarlet letter or whatever, you know, but when she said that to me, it was just like this burden lifted. Yeah. And said like, oh, yeah, I guess there is something to be, you know,
- [85:28]
Thais Gibson
like proud of in a non prideful way.
- [85:31]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [85:31]
Thais Gibson
Like truly proud and.
- [85:33]
Lisa
Yeah.
- [85:33]
Thais Gibson
And I want you to know, like, first of all, people going through these types of themes and relationships are so common. Like so many people go through, like almost every marriage goes through some sort of dynamic or challenge or on the, like, you know, it's very common and it's just a symptom of pain. That's all it is. It's a symptom of pain. And every human being has had an experience of going through something painful, not having the best coping mechanism in the moment, because we're doing what we know how to do with what we know at the time. And that's just part of everybody's human experience. And if anybody comes from a place of judgment, it's almost always a projection of their own shadow. It's almost somebody who's. Who's also made a mistake in some way, in a very human way, and hasn't forgiven themselves. And that's where judgment comes from when it gets projected onto somebody else. And so you know, what it is, in its objectivity is a beautiful story of two people who loved each other, went through a tremendous amount of trials, and found their way back no matter what.
- [86:28]
Lisa
Yeah. Yeah. So I think my biggest takeaway today is, is the need or the, the importance of doing something for myself and prioritizing, you know, whether it's on a daily basis or just checking in with myself and making sure that I'm recognizing those needs and acting on them and not allowing other things to get in the way, where I'm just like abandoning myself because I need to take better care of my heart.
- [87:07]
Thais Gibson
So thank you. Thank you for sharing your beautiful story and you're just such a beautiful person and really appreciate you being here.
- [87:13]
Lisa
Thanks.