Why You’re Exhausted by Relationships as a Fearful Avoidant

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Why You’re Exhausted by Relationships as a Fearful Avoidant"

Podcast: The Thais Gibson Podcast
Host: Thais Gibson
Guest: Abir
Episode Date: June 13, 2026

Overview

This episode centers on the unique struggles of individuals with a Fearful Avoidant (FA) attachment style, particularly how childhood wounds and cultural dynamics create exhaustion and burnout in adult relationships. Through a heartfelt and deeply personal conversation with guest Abir, the discussion explores the roots of these patterns, their manifestations in friendships, and tangible steps towards healing, authenticity, and healthy boundaries. The episode is both a case study and a supportive conversation, relatable to anyone who feels depleted by “one-way” relationships and is seeking to reclaim their voice and emotional energy.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Childhood Roots of Exhaustion & Fearful Avoidant Attachment

Timestamps: 02:18 – 13:16

• Abir’s Background: Grew up in Dubai in a conservative Pakistani and Muslim family, later moved to the U.S.
• Childhood Trauma: Early, repeated loss of caregivers—primary attachment to her mother was severed at age 3.5, leading to a pattern of cycling through various caregivers, some abusive.
  • "I lose my mom, and then I have this caregiver. I get attached, and then they get removed." (Abir, 02:58)
• Internalizing Criticism: Harsh words from caregivers became Abir's internal voice, leading to beliefs of unworthiness, perfectionism, and chronic unsafety.
• Control & Powerlessness: Abir’s quest for control as an adult is rooted in a history of having no say as a child.
  • "[As a kid] I had absolutely no say in my life...Not only was I feeling stuck, I also didn’t feel like I had a way out." (Abir, 17:12)

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2. The Dialogue of Unworthiness

Timestamps: 09:20 – 16:59

• Core Belief: “I am unworthy.”—Abir discusses how this sense dominated both her childhood and early adulthood (e.g., striving for academic perfection to earn love).
  • "If I was skinnier, if I had a lighter skin tone, if I was prettier, smarter, better in school, my parents would love me more. Maybe they would stay." (Abir, 09:33)
• Perfectionism & Burnout: Her fear of making mistakes and the internal pressure to be perfect led to emotional collapse, including a suicide attempt during graduate school.
• Therapeutic Insight: With the support of Thais Gibson’s school, Abir reframes these beliefs: “Even though that was a long time ago, it was just this attempt to escape from pain...It wasn’t that that was the outcome that you were wanting.” (Host, 13:16)

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3. Rewiring Patterns Through Inner Inquiry

Timestamps: 16:33 – 23:21

• Challenging Old Narratives: Thais walks Abir through a series of questions to unearth and question the truth behind her core beliefs.
  • "Can you 100% know that that’s true?" (Host, 16:33)
• Inner Child Work: Abir describes comforting the children she babysits as if she’s speaking to her own inner child, recognizing her innocence and unworthiness is a story, not a fact.
  • "I see myself in her...Any kid would want that." (Abir, 18:51)
• Moments of Strength: Recalling times as a child when she stood up to caregivers, Abir begins to see her resilience and ability to individuate, even when silenced by adults.

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4. The Cost-Benefit Analysis (Cost-Benefit Tool)

Timestamps: 23:21 – 29:39

• Tool Explanation: Thais introduces the “cost-benefit work” technique: Listing 10+ costs of an old behavior and the benefits of letting it go, then reinforcing new beliefs through repetition.
  • "A lot of times we do things because at one point the idea of doing them benefited us more than they cost us...But years later, that may be the very thing that holds you back." (Host, 23:21)
• Abir’s Gains From Struggle: Abir recognizes that the hardship fuelled her independence, but at a cost: chronic exhaustion and strong need for catch-up rest (“I am tired...I’m always tired.”)

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5. Repetition of Childhood Patterns in Adult Friendships

Timestamps: 35:31 – 41:15

• Friendship Dynamics: Abir sees parallels in her adult friendships—she takes on all the emotional labor to keep groups together, fearing abandonment if she stops.
  • "If I don’t keep everybody together...I will lose the group. I will lose the connection." (Abir, 38:25)
• Self-Imposed Roles: Realizes she is partly responsible for her own exhaustion by becoming the group’s "emotional glue."
• Host Reflection: "The pattern is just shifting forms..." (Host, 40:44)

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6. The Invisibility & Vulnerability Dilemma

Timestamps: 41:15 – 49:19

• Barriers to Vulnerability: Abir finds it difficult to express needs, fearing she’ll be dismissed or viewed as weak, echoing family experiences of being consistently unheard or dismissed.
• Notable Quote: "If you see my flaws, you’ll still stay?...That little child made that connection long ago." (Abir, 43:54)
• Reciprocity & Real Support: With her PDS (Personal Development School) friend group, she finally experiences acceptance and support when authentic, even at her lowest.

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7. Understanding & Repairing Ruptures in Friendship

Timestamps: 52:28 – 63:30

• Analyzing Conflict: Abir recounts conflict with a friend who repeatedly arrives late—her wounded reaction is rooted in childhood neglect (not being picked up from school).
• The Importance of Speaking Up:
  • Host emphasizes: "When we speak, it’s not for the outcome, it’s for how you want to move in the world." (Host, 59:12)
  • Abir's barrier: "It’s too vulnerable. It shows that I’m weak, and I don’t want to be vulnerable and weak, even though I know consciously..." (Abir, 57:39)
• Practical Step: Abir is encouraged to communicate needs and boundaries explicitly, even if imperfectly, and to experiment with reframing levels of friendship rather than pushing people away.

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8. Exhaustion as a Signal—The Role of Authenticity

Timestamps: 66:19 – 69:02

• Authenticity as Self-Protection: Thais and Abir reflect that chronic exhaustion always matches periods of "leaving authenticity"—abandoning herself for the sake of connection.
  • "Your exhaustion is always your direct feedback that you’re out of your authenticity." (Host, 68:04)
  • "If there’s no freedom and I cannot be myself, I don’t want a part in it." (Abir, 68:30)
• Key Insight: The only way to truly protect her inner child and remain energized is to remain committed to speaking her truth with others.

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9. Tools and Commitment for Healing

Timestamps: 69:02 – End

• 21/60 Day Challenges: 21 days of listing costs of self-abandonment, and 60 days of daily “micro-exposure” to sharing her needs honestly—not waiting until she’s past threshold.
  • "Just doing an evening check-in: Is there anything I haven’t shared today with a friend that I need to?...so you’re going to allow yourself to not just be in your authenticity, but to be in connection that’s reciprocal." (Host, 71:24)
• Summary Quote: "I’m still guarding myself up to self-protect…and that may not work. It’s blocking me from having pure, authentic connections." (Abir, 71:47)
• Final Reflection: Healing is an ongoing process of honoring authenticity, communicating earlier, and understanding that previous protection strategies may now block meaningful connection.

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Memorable Quotes

• Abir (09:20): "The biggest one is I’m unworthy. That’s the big one, for sure."
• Host (17:02): “What does it feel like in your body when you start thinking, ‘I am an unworthy child?’”
• Abir (20:09): "I’ve always had a fire about me, even when I was little...that strength."
• Host (40:07): "Where do I rob my own safety when I do all the emotional labor?"
• Abir (66:53): "When I first got the Islamic clothing off of me...and just taking that off, the weight that got lifted off of me because I could be one step closer to myself..."
• Host (68:04): "Your exhaustion is always your direct feedback that you’re out of your authenticity."
• Abir (71:47): "I’m still guarding myself up to self-protect...But I’m noticing that’s blocking me from having pure, authentic connections and being true to myself."

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Important Timestamps

• Childhood themes, attachment wounds: 02:18 – 08:22
• Unworthiness & internal dialogue: 09:20 – 13:16
• Cost-benefit technique explained: 23:21 – 24:32
• Parallels in adult friendships: 35:31 – 39:12
• Friend group & vulnerability barriers: 41:15 – 49:19
• Repairing friendship ruptures: 52:28 – 63:30
• Authenticity & exhaustion link: 66:19 – 68:04
• Summary & healing commitments: 69:02 – End

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Takeaways & Listener Value

• For FAs & Exhausted Givers: This episode gives a raw, compassionate insight into why "one-way" emotional investment breeds exhaustion and how longstanding wounds—often unarticulated—drive these patterns.
• Practical Healing: Listeners are equipped with daily and long-term tools (cost-benefit analysis, exposure work, self-inquiry) to reclaim energy, authenticity, and agency in relationships.
• Cultural & Family Dynamics: The discussion acknowledges the role of cultural, gender, and family expectations in shaping attachment wounds and emphasizes the possibility for authentic transformation.
• Empowerment & Self-Advocacy: The conversation is empowering—reminding listeners that healing happens not just in solitude, but in brave, incremental acts of openness and by embracing the discomfort of being seen.

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Episode Essence

"Your exhaustion is your compass. Every time you leave your authenticity to earn love or keep the peace, you pay a price. Reclaiming your voice isn’t just possible; it’s necessary, and you can start imperfectly, today."

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Transcript

[Host]

There's this fear that if I'm. If I'm. If I say it and it doesn't go perfectly as planned, then I can't take it, then I won't be able to move through it, or I can't be on the receiving end of that. But you don't get broken. Like you emerge and you re emerge and you re emerge. And when we speak, it's not for the outcome, it's for how you want to move in the world.

[Abir]

Yeah, right.

[Host]

It's for that. I want to be the person that speaks in my friendships. I want to be the person who gives people a chance for how they show up. And if he doesn't respond in the way that you need, you can always say, okay, it's a level three friendship. Maybe it's not a level five, maybe it's a level three, and I can sit with that. But, but you're actually partially the one here closing and pushing when you choose to not speak. Today I'm here with a lovely guest, Abir, who's going to go through and talk about the pain and sometimes difficulty of one way friendships. And at times maybe not because friends are unavailable or not able to invest, but sometimes because we are actually blocking that investment. So for anybody who's ever felt burnt out in their friendships or exhausted by one way connections and had a difficult time being vulnerable and connecting in a deeper way so that you can get your needs met too, this episode is for you. And you're gonna see firsthand some of the underlying themes and patterns that create these dynamics. How to recognize if these are yours too, and how to actually change them in the relationship to self.

[Abir]

I'm Abir, I am from St. Louis, Missouri. I grew up in Dubai and I moved to the US about 12ish years ago. I'm working through a lot of my childhood trauma and my attachment style as a fearful avoidant. I'm a healing fearful avoidant. And so I'm just here to unpack some of the patterns that I feel very stuck in, such as feeling unsafe and also shutting down when I feel unsafe and not being able to work through those things.

[Host]

Perfect. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for being here. Excited to dive in and chat with you today. And I think we'll just start by I'd love to hear a little bit about any outstanding themes you see in your childhood. So it doesn't have to be necessarily all these different experiences, but just any patterns of things that you felt, things that you experienced, and how you think that might have imprinted you in specific ways.

[Abir]

I think that a big part of it was the culture. You know, I think Pakistani culture, and then taking into account the Muslim culture can merge into it being very conservative, or at least my family was, when it came to women and women's rights and what they were allowed to do. So the life that I live right now is definitely not part of that culture. And so me moving to the US Was a big part of that. Um, but the themes that I really struggled with as a woman who really wanted to be independent in my own skin was not being, you know, I wasn't allowed to have guy friends, or I wasn't allowed to go out with friends, or I wasn't. You know, at one point, I was made to wear the. The Muslim hijab when I didn't want to. So there was like, a lot of forced. Forced things where I felt out of control or I didn't feel like I had my own voice or I had a sense of self. And then because I was. I lost my mom. She. She didn't pass away, but she was removed from the picture. When I was three and a half years old, I was kind of sent to a lot of different caregivers, and I didn't have access to those caregivers consistently at all times. So I lose my mom, and then I have this caregiver. I get attached, and then they get removed. And then another caregiver comes. I get attached, they get removed. And so, for the most part, I was very blessed. And the caregivers that I had were very loving and they took care of me. But there were a couple of caregivers that had this theme of verbal abuse, emotional abuse, emotional manipulation, and just saying a lot of hurtful things to just that. I felt like, broke me down to my core. And then when I moved to the U.S. i thought I got away from that and I could stay away from that, but it turned out to be my inner world and the way I spoke to. To myself. And of course, the school has done a lot, helped me, done a lot of work on that. But, yeah, I think that is something that I still struggle with and would love to work through one day and look on the beach on the other side.

[Host]

That's a beautiful share. And. And there's so many things just already in there that I want to touch on. And so. So we'll go into that and we'll sort of link it into your. Your topic for today is. Is working through how these patterns sort of emerge in friendships. But there's a lot in there. Right. Like going through. And I think there's this sense of, even if you, for the most part, had some great caregivers after losing your mother as a primary role in your life, even if there were people who were kind and sweet, the act of constantly having to go from one person to another would have definitely had some disruption in the way that you learned to attach.

[Abir]

Oh, yeah.

[Host]

And so you said something really powerful, which. Which I thought was beautiful to. To hear you say, which is that you realize a lot of how you were spoken to by caregivers that weren't as healthy became a lot of your internal dialogue to yourself.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

But also this dynamic of, well, you would have kept losing people and losing people. And so I want to just dig into that for a moment because I actually think these are going to be some of the patterns that emerge in friendships.

[Abir]

Oh, yes.

[Host]

So. So let's start with the losing people part. So when you felt this detachment from caregiver after caregiver, do you remember anything about what you made that mean about yourself?

[Abir]

I just remember it being excruciatingly painful. I just remember feeling like nothing is going to last. Nobody's ever going to stay. I don't have a safe relationship platform to stand on where I can say this one person, which for kids are supposed to be your parents or sometimes even grandparents. I could not say this one person is. Is going to stay. They're going to be there. They're going to protect me, they're going to nurture me. I just felt like abandonment was my destiny or abandonment was the result of anything and everything for me.

[Host]

Yeah. And so I don't just hear abandoned, which is the obvious, but I heard you even say it in passing. Unsafe.

[Abir]

Yes.

[Host]

And have you ever put that together that you felt chronically unsafe in those dynamics as well? Okay, good.

[Abir]

Yes. Because there is an. There's. I feel like there's a degree of unsafety that comes from just losing one parent or because my dad was in the picture, but I didn't really have access to him as much as I wanted. Especially if you remove a parent, you would think that the. The needs to. Towards your dad would amplify. And I did. I was very close to my dad. I would sleep on his chest. I didn't want to sleep in my bed. I was always with my dad. And so what had happened was my mom exited the picture, and then my. My dad remarried and then he. His focus shifted on his marriage. And then my sister was born shortly after, and so then that became his focus. And so I was always being sent to the relatives to be taken care of. So the unsafety really came from one not only losing access. Like if we're just looking at pure access. I lost access to both my parents, both my mom and dad. And. And I was always with my dad anyway. So sometimes I look back and I'm like, did it really bother me so much to lose my mom? And. And now I'm. Now when I know about myself more, I'm like, yes, it definitely did. Having someone to run to when I needed anything. But I think the unsafety was not only losing access to your parents first and then having constantly caregivers leaving, exiting and then how those caregivers treated me when I was in their care. It's like not only are you being removed from your parents and you have this ache, then you're just extra sensitive to everything because you have these caregivers that have their own kids.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

And they're treating these kids a certain way. Because I remember feeling like, oh, I see, you know, my aunt is a wonderful mom to her kids. I wish I could have that. Or I would be in school and I would see parents coming to drop off their kids and I'd be like, oh, I wish I had that. I remember many nights where I would go to sleep and there was. And at that time I was very much into the Islamic religion and I was very religious at the time. And so I would just pray to myself, crying at night, like, please give me a mother figure. I don't have somebody to rely on. Please give me that. I don't want to feel this. I don't want to feel alone. So.

[Host]

Okay, so let's just stay there for a moment and thank you for sharing that. When you think back to those moments, what does that feel like in your body?

[Abir]

I always feel it in my chest. It's always in my chest, in my gut. It feels like a heaviness, like an ache in my gut. And it's. It's quite down now. A lot I remember this would be something that would completely disable me. Like I couldn't do anything because I've worked on a lot of the beliefs that came from it. Right. Like I'm unlovable, I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy. I will be left every time or nobody would want to be with me. All those things are definitely not as loud. And so I can feel this feeling, know why I'm feeling is there. It's not disabling. Me, but it's there.

[Host]

And if you had to put that feeling into words, is that I am alone or is it, I am abandoned, I am unsafe. Like, what is that big?

[Abir]

I think the biggest one is I'm unworthy.

[Host]

Okay, interesting.

[Abir]

That's the big one. Yeah, for sure.

[Host]

And is there this part of you at the time that felt like, okay, if I was more worthy, then I wouldn't be in this position?

[Abir]

Yeah, maybe.

[Host]

Like, I. I know as a kid,

[Abir]

I felt like cuz. Like there were. There were certain things that the family members used as a scale. If you were good in school, if you were pretty, if you were skinny, that would make you like, this perfect child. And so that's how my eating disorder stemmed. Because this one particular caregiver would fat shame me openly. Like, we could be sitting in a room of people and she would come and grab on my body parts and be like, you should not be having this. Nobody wants a fat, ugly bride. Like, she would openly say over and over again. And so I remember growing up feeling like, oh, if I was skinnier, if I had a lighter skin tone, because that's defined as beauty in my culture. If I was prettier, smarter, better in school, like, my parents would love me more. Maybe they would stay. Maybe they wouldn't leave me. Maybe. Maybe if I was better. And that's where the perfectionism came from too.

[Host]

Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Abir]

I would have. I mean, thanks to your school, personal development school, I would not have been able to put that together, even after six, seven years of therapy that I had at that time, to really realize that's where it's all coming from and how I'm putting it together in myself.

[Host]

And how much do you feel like that belief sits with you? I am unworthy. Like you said, you've worked through a lot of the abandoned or alone or. Or. But is the unworthy something that still is noticeable?

[Abir]

I do feel like it comes up in my career area of life a lot where I was very hard on myself the last eight years in my career. Like, have to get straight A's. Anything less than straight A's, because again, there was this narrative that if we're sending you outside of the country to go to school, it's a privilege.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

Because I'm supposed to get married and have kids and like, it's not like you're. You can't have access to education, but the fact that we're sending you abroad and paying for your education, it's a privilege. It's not your right. And so I was like, oh, my gosh, my dad is spending all this money. I cannot mess up. I have to get straight A's.

[Host]

Pressure.

[Abir]

This pressure. I didn't have any friends in school. I didn't go to anything. I mean, my friends still make fun of me. They're like, yeah, if we ask a beer to go out, they'd be like, I have an assignment in six months. I can't go. So I was very, very focused. But what I didn't take into consideration was I didn't rest. I didn't take time for my mental health. I didn't even know what mental health was at.

[Host]

Because you're so busy trying to earn your worth, right?

[Abir]

And so after Bachelor's, I think I was accepted into a PhD program at Emory. And that's where it all came crashing down. No matter how hard I try, I couldn't perform because I was just. And I've had one attempt of suicide in my life, and that's when it happened.

[Host]

Because during that time.

[Abir]

During that time, yeah.

[Host]

And at its root, would you say the biggest, loudest piece? And that was just this feeling of like, I'm losing my entire identity because I'm losing my worth because I can't perform. And that was one of the biggest catalysts that triggered that.

[Abir]

And I remember when I hadn't, I made the attempt to take my life. One of my caregivers was sitting next to me and saying everything negative about me. Like, you're. This is wrong. You're doing this wrong. You've got a chip on your shoulder. This, this, this, this, this, this, this. And it was ongoing. And I had this moment. I was like, I'm struggling so much in life, and here's the person that I care for so much. My attachment figure, finally have a mother figure, and this is her. And if she's saying all these negative things about me, and you know how you define suicide? It's not because you're you. I really was wanting the exit from the pain. I was wanting it to change. I wasn't wanting death. I was just wanting it to change. And I was just like, maybe it'd be easier if I just didn't exist. Because nothing I do is good enough. Nothing is enough. And that is basically when it happened. I mean, it's. It was a long time ago, and I'm past it, but I remember that was my breaking point.

[Host]

You may relate to this, but oftentimes we absorb these different ideas from earlier in Our childhood or past conditions or experiences, we went through these ideas like, I am unworthy if I'm not overachieving or over performing. And in this part of the segment, you're gonna see us actually surface these subconscious stored beliefs that Abeer has been carrying and work through them by questioning these stories so that we can see outside of this old narrative and actually take the blinders off. So I want to go in. I'm noticing all these. Thank you for sharing so vulnerably. And I love that you noticed and have the awareness and wisdom to recognize that even though that was a long time ago, it was just this attempt to escape from pain. And it wasn't that that was the outcome that you were wanting. No, but I want to be really clear that we're not carrying that. So I'd like to actually go in because that's a very, very heavy. You've been through a lot of things in a big way. Right. And a lot of feelings of unworthiness because of the way you were conditioned. A lot of abandonment or feeling unsafe, and definitely a lot of just difficult, challenging situations. So out of control. Being another one too was one that stood out to me.

[Abir]

That's why I'm a control fa.

[Host]

Yeah, there you go. And that's okay. It makes perfect sense. Right. So I actually want to start. And I know you said you wanted to work on the family members. I'm going to bring it back to that. But I actually want to start with a moment in time, if you have it, where you were crying in your bed at night and praying and you felt this profound sense of unworthiness and you were like, if I was just worthy or more worthy, maybe somebody would stay, maybe somebody would be here, or maybe I would be more loved and accepted. Is there any moment in time that comes up for you there or.

[Abir]

I remember my grandma, she has dementia now, so she doesn't remember who I am anymore. But she was very pivotal. If I am the person that I am today, it's because of her, because she was there. I remember my dad yelling at me because I wasn't getting along with my stepmom. I was very rebellious towards my stepmom. And he just would. I mean, obviously she would, like, vent to him and then he would just be like, oh, it's the kid's fault. She's the one who needs to be disciplined. And he'd come and yell at me and I would just feel like this. This helpless kid just fighting to protect myself and stand up for myself, just defending Myself. And then I'd go to bed and I would have those moments where I would cry. And then you know how there's, like when you're falling asleep, there's this moment where you are kind of awake where you're aware what's going on, but you're not moving because you're falling asleep. And that is when my grandma would come in my room because she didn't want to openly show me the support. She didn't openly want to be there and say, I know this is painful. I know this is hurting you. So she would show up while I was, when she thought I was asleep, and tears would still be on my face, and she would wipe them off and, like, touch my head with love and try to, to soothe me.

[Host]

So I'm going to take you through that. Okay. So I want you to notice one of those moments. You've already started to take yourself through that, but one of those moments that you're sitting there in bed and even before grandmother comes in and you're sitting there and you're feeling like, okay, I'm unworthy. So in that moment, do you have a moment in your mind?

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay.

[Abir]

Many, actually. Yeah.

[Host]

So in that moment, I am an unworthy child. Can you 100% know that that's true?

[Abir]

No.

[Host]

And what does it cost you in that moment to believe that and to invest in that when it happens to you?

[Abir]

I, I mean, I, I. There's a part of me that knows I'm this very capable, strong, smart person, but I will never step into that power. Yeah, I will. I will never do it.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

I. Even till this day, I won't.

[Host]

And what does it feel like in your body when you start thinking I am an unworthy child? What did that feel like at the time?

[Abir]

It just. Yeah, I just. I just felt paralyzed.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

Like helpless. I couldn't do anything to help myself. I had no control. I couldn't say, this is what I want to wear to school, and I could wear that to school. I had absolutely no say in my life since I was a kid. So not only was I feeling stuck, I also didn't feel like I had a way out.

[Host]

Yeah. And then telling this narrative that I'm unworthy, I'm unworthy, and that's why this is happening just makes you even more helpless. Right. Even more frozen in that period of time. And just for a moment, if you can imagine, like, without that idea and you look back at you as this child, without that story that you're an unworthy child, what do you see or how do you see yourself instead?

[Abir]

You know, it's funny that you asked me that because I do a lot of that now. I am a babysitter on the side and I take care of a lot of kids. I have a family that I'm with right now and the kids, I, they mean the world to me. They really do. There's a five year old girl, which is, she's very close to the age that I was when I was feeling like this. And she is just this beautiful, beautiful spirit. And I just, you know, sometimes she'll have her crying spells when she's disappointed or not happy. And I just, I see myself in her even though she's not anywhere. Like she's not going through anything I did. But she does feel, feel like, oh, I wish mom and dad were here longer. I, you know, they just went to work. I wish they could spend more time with me. When are they coming home? And then sometimes when I'm putting her to bed at night, you know, she's like sad. She's like, I want mom. You know, and I see myself in her because I wanted that. Any kid would want that.

[Host]

Yes.

[Abir]

And so I remember. And I, and I speak to her as if I'm speaking to myself. I know you miss them. They're here. They're not going anywhere. They'll be back. When you wake up in the morning, that's the first thing you're gonna see is your parents. I promise you, I'm here. They love you. I love you.

[Host]

That's beautiful. You know, so I want to go back. That was so beautiful.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And you left yourself just for a moment and you started talking with the little girl.

[Abir]

Because I love her so much.

[Host]

So let's go back to you for a second. So, so that five year old, okay. So that, that young girl, there's you. And I want you to try to see yourself for just a moment without that story that you're unworthy. And what do you see as you at 5 years old? What do you see about yourself without that story?

[Abir]

Just an innocent, helpless child who doesn't know anything. She's naive. She's defense, love, defense, love less. And she just wants to be loved. She, you know, she hasn't done anything. She's. There's nothing wrong with her. It's just her circumstances are like she's just dealt these cards that she, she has to figure out herself.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And how do you see yourself in a way that's worthy. What's worthy about you at that Period of time.

[Abir]

I mean, I've always had a fire about me, even when I was little. I mean, if I were to see myself as a kid and the stuff that I would say, I. I'm seriously. My mouth have gotten me in trouble so many times. But this fire, the strength that I've always had in, you know, my inner child, my little child at that age, had to have that even after everything. Yeah. That strength.

[Host]

And a specific example of that, a specific moment that stands out where you showed that.

[Abir]

I think. I think there was a moment, specifically this caregiver. I didn't want to go back to her. And I knew if I spoke up, I would get punished from my dad or everybody would dismiss it and nobody would believe me because she's the adult. Whatever she go. Says goes, because that's the culture. And I remember, I. It came to a breaking point where I was just, like, I was just crying. It was time for me to go to her house. And I was like, I'm not going. I'm not going to go. And everybody's making fun of me. They're like, you look so ugly when you cry. This is not, you know, you stop crying and, like, why are you making a fuss? Like, you. You're not being a good child because you're not listening. And I just kept saying, I'm not going. I'm not going.

[Host]

And sink into that for a moment.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And. And try to feel and notice what you felt in your body in that moment.

[Abir]

Just. Just, I. I'm not doing it.

[Host]

Just this sense of strength and, like, perseverance.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And what does that feel like in. In your body?

[Abir]

It just felt like freedom. Like, I. I need to speak up for myself. I need to, you know. Yes, they're adults, and, yes, we're taught to always obey adults and listen to our elders. But I don't feel good when I'm there. I don't like how I'm treated. And still a part of me felt like I don't deserve to be treated that way. Even if I feel unworthy, I don't deserve to be treated that way.

[Host]

And just try to notice that for a second. Try to notice that there you are as this young girl, not just with this, like, fire and this strength, but this individuation.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

Like, that's remarkable. This little girl. Yeah. Who already is, like, able to question authority and look at the situation hasn't gone away. And if I ask you honestly, how has that actually served you in your life to be somebody who questions authority?

[Abir]

I Mean, it's just where I'm at right now, right? I was the first girl of the family to leave home at the age of 18 to come to the US to go to school. I mean, I have cousins who are younger than me, they're married. I have other family members that got married younger than me already have kids. Because that's what the culture line outlines for you, right? Like your responsibility towards your kids and your husband is second once your responsibility towards your parents are fulfilled. And I didn't want that. That is not what I wanted for myself, especially seeing my mom and how helpless she was after the marriage fell apart. I saw the way she had to build herself back up from nothing. And I was like, that is not going to be me. Wow, that is not going to be me. And I knew that even at the age of five, that is not going to be me.

[Host]

There's a really powerful way to rewire your subconscious mind, and it is called cost benefit work. It's something we practice a lot inside the Personal development school. And the idea is that a lot of times we do things because at one point the idea of doing them benefited us more than they cost us. For example, maybe you learned to abandon yourself as a child because that's why you stayed safe in your environment growing up. However, as an adult years later, what once benefited you more because you didn't have many other options, may be the very thing that's actually holding you back. In this part of the segment, you're gonna see us go through the cost benefit tool, trying to basically recalibrate our idea of costs and benefits. And this is something you can also practice at home if you are stuck on repeating a same old behavior when you know consciously that this isn't something benefiting you or serving you anymore. In order to do this, we look at 10 costs of the old behavior and 10 benefits of letting it go. But the real magic happens when we do the rewiring work, which means not just noting these things down, but actually recording yourself saying these out loud and listening back in a suggestible state for 21 days. So it really hardwires these new neural networks into your brain. Can I ask you a really interesting question?

[Abir]

Please.

[Host]

What would it have cost you in your life to not go through those really hard times?

[Abir]

I think I would have been back to where I was basically no sense of self, no voice, or had a voice that would fire through, but just not being able to do anything for myself. And, you know, this is a thing that a lot of people don't know about me. Growing up, I had everything that money could buy. We had a live and help that was cooking and cleaning for us. Like, I never did laundry in my life. Like, I was very pampered, but I didn't have a sense of self to even make decisions for myself. And when I first came to the US this is going to sound so, so crazy, but when I went out to eat dinner on my own, they brought me the check and I had no idea what to do with it because I never paid for my bills. I never was because my dad would always pay for stuff because that's how he provided and supported. That was the role. And I was like, what do they need? Okay, they need a card. And then bringing the receipt back. You have to like all that process took me a few tries to figure out how to do that for myself. If I had not left home, I would not have been the person that I am today. And the person that I am today, I'm pretty much in love with her. She's something.

[Host]

And you should be really proud. She's something.

[Abir]

I don't know what she is yet, but she's something. I can tell you that.

[Host]

And that's such a beautiful share about your own worth. Right. Even though you were made to feel so unworthy on one side by the criticism and the harshness, it's almost like you developed a sense of worthiness in who you were. Yeah. Because you were able to prioritize a sense of, wait, I'm worth more than just constantly trying to seek approval, seek opinions, fitting in. I'm actually going to choose myself beyond that.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I bet that wasn't an easy road. I bet there was a lot of learning curve that came out of that.

[Abir]

It was extremely painful because fighting against the men of the family. Because when I first moved here, my dad was like, if there's any way I'm sending you to the U.S. you have to live with family. That's my condition. And I was living with my uncle and my aunt, and my aunt doesn't have any kids of her own, so she took me in as her child. So I had that relationship with her where I felt like my prayers were finally answered or what. I wanted a mother figure who was focused on me. I was given that. But she's still very, very much from that conservative culture mindset. So she was also not in support of a lot of things I wanted to do with my voice. And we still struggle with that. But that's just. You know what? I think that'll Be an ongoing thing. And that's fine. We can agree to disagree on that. But my uncle had that mentality of, this is a woman's role. If you're going to be living in my house, I expect you to cook, I expect you to clean, I expect you to do laundry. I accept. Expect you to help around the house. And I'm not saying I was against that, Especially if I was getting free housing to go, be able to go to school, I had to do something in return to reciprocate. But he was very strict about that, you know, and he.

[Host]

And I hear in that it wasn't about the reciprocity, it was about the control.

[Abir]

It was the control. Oh, for sure. Especially this. This family member. I think control is very much the highlight of his personality. And when he couldn't get the control, because I. I am very difficult to control. I think even my parents have given up at this point. But when he felt out of. I remember him breaking down in front of me one time. He's like, abeer, I am tired. I cannot keep fighting with you anymore. Because everything was a fight with me. But when he couldn't control me, he would. He would. And he couldn't hit me. Like, people would be able to hit me back home. He couldn't hit me in the US So then he would resort to psychological. Right?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

You know, whatever he could do to break me down. I think the one thing that I will never forget is when he got really angry with me and my aunt was trying to calm him down and he goes, it's not my fault we brought a moron into this family.

[Host]

And as terrible as that is, I want to ask you a question. You can be broken down. Is it true?

[Abir]

No.

[Host]

Yeah. I think you've proven that to yourself.

[Abir]

Oh, yeah.

[Host]

Time and time again. And just sit in that for a second. So try to, like, really notice that. That there's somebody who has had every circumstance that could have broken somebody. Like, every circumstance.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And like, you were not broken. Not only were you not broke in a beer, but you took something that was extremely painful and challenging and decided to put the pieces back together in a more beautiful way.

[Abir]

Yeah. I think there's a cost to it, though. I feel very tired now that I have none of that to deal with. I think the last three, four years, I've just taken the easy route and I'm letting myself. I'm taking it easy, like, and a job that's easier for me because I'm not constantly fighting for that next big thing. Or if I just want to sleep all weekend, I sleep all weekend. If I don't want to work out, I don't work out. But for the last three and a half, four years that I've been on the school, that has been the main theme where I'm just tired.

[Host]

Yeah, you're giving. Well, you're probably catching your breath a little bit.

[Abir]

Right.

[Host]

Which is a big part of that

[Abir]

25 years of constant pattern of this is.

[Host]

I mean, so much.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

But I think as somebody who can't be broken, you can definitely step into letting. The pendulum may have swung in a different direction. Like, I gotta catch my breath and get some rest and take it easy for a minute, not be in this constant pressure cooker of life. But you can slowly do a little bit of exposure on, like, new habits and getting back to some of those things. So I wanna go into the specific caregiver for a moment. So you had that specific caregiver, and you can share as much or as little about her as you'd like. But is there a specific instance that represents that person, a specific instant in time where.

[Abir]

Yes, I think there is this one story, and this might be TMI for some people. So I'll try to be as careful about sharing it. But I developed as a woman, like, I hit puberty very early on, like at the age of 11.

[Host]

A witch.

[Abir]

Sorry, at the age of 11, you developed a what? I hit puberty.

[Host]

Oh, hit puberty.

[Abir]

Yes, I hit puberty. And. And so I had no idea what to do. I mean, I had a help at the time who showed me, okay, well, this is what you use. This is how you do it. And at that time, my dynamic with my stepmom, who's my mama, I call her Mama. She's a wonderful person. I really love her. I do have a decent relationship with her now. But at that time, it was a struggle. And so anytime I was rebellious or disrespectful, like, she'd stopped talking to me, so I couldn't really go to her for anything because I would know, okay, she's mad at me. She doesn't talk to me as a child. I can't seek her help. Or that's what it felt like. I think today if she was here, she'd be like, well, you could have come and asked me, but.

[Host]

But you didn't know as a child. As a child, I'm like, her shutting down. And that's how you're responding to it.

[Abir]

Yeah. So that's. That was my response. And so I remember that I had run out of sanitary pads and I obviously couldn't go to my dad because of the shame around it in the culture. I didn't feel comfortable going to the help. And so I was at her house and I had, I was, I was on the last one for, I think it had been like 12ish hours. And I remember going to the bathroom and seeing that, like, I need a new one. But I'm like, I think I'll be fine. I think I'll make it for another hour while I'm here and when I get home, because I would spend all evenings, every single day of the week, except for the weekends at her house. I think I'll be fine. But. But now when I look back at it, the fact that I can't speak up.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

And say, hey, I'm out of this at the age of 11 and I need more. That alone is like, it tells you where I was mentally. But there was also an element of fear. I felt like with her, she was very explosive because if we're talking about her, this was a very, very chronic, stressful time in her life, like financial stress, stress of family stress of sending kids to school. I mean, she had twin boys and a younger boy. And then she was always tutoring people to make more money. And I was one of the kids that was at her house to get tutored. But the different was difference was my dad wasn't paying her and the kids would be there for a limited time and go home. And then I would have to stay as long as till my bedtime. And she'd be like, well, if you finish your homework, you can go home. And then I'd finish all my homework so I could just get out of there. And then she'd be like, oh, you're done. Okay, well, you're going to help me with the dishes? Are you going to help me with this? Because I need to teach you how to be like, teach you all the jobs of a woman to like, clean and cook and all that, because you need to know how to do that. And I remember I was like, I came out of the bathroom, I was like, I just sat down. I was wearing beige pants, so it was not something that could easily cover. And I'm just sitting down and I'm just like, yeah, I'll be fine. I can just get through an hour. And then all of a sudden I see red everywhere. And my first instinct was I was very close friends with my twin cousins. One of them is still my best, best friend. And I ran to him. I was like, I'm not supposed to talk to you about this because you're a guy, but I don't know who else to ask. Could you please take me home? I need you to take me home now. And she was in her room on the phone and she didn't want to get off the phone. And he was telling her, I'm going to take a beer home. She was like, why? What? And then he was like, I'm just going to take her home. And then he. And she was like, okay. And then he took me home because she was on the phone and I was glad that she was distracted to let me go. And then on the way I was like, hey, do you have any money? Do you have like any, like, even a few dirt hums, Like I need to go to store, I need to buy myself pads. He's like, no, I don't, but I know you don't. You're scared of my mom, but let me go ask her for money. Let me just go ask her. I was like, no, no, no. And he's like, okay, you don't have to come back inside. I'll go ask her. And he goes inside and he asks her and then she makes him bring me back inside. And I was like, I don't want to go back inside. And then the first thing she did was like, give me a hug. She's like, I had no idea you were this scared of me. I was just like, but that's the relationship.

[Host]

This is where we are. That's.

[Abir]

That's where we are is that I'm an 11 year old girl, doesn't have a mom, have a mom, don't have access to her, or have a stepmom and can't speak to her. You're my caregiver right now in these hours and I'm terrified of asking you. And so she felt really bad. She gave me pads and she gave me change of clothes and she's like, if you ever need more, just ask me. But even at that time, because I have a, I have a severe condition, pmdd. So I had really heavy periods at the time. And so she was like, please ask me when you're down to two. And I was down to two in a day. And so I asked her, she's like, why are you needing so many? Like, you know, I gave you so much. Like, it's just been a day. Why are you needing, like, are you wasting them? And I'm like, okay, never mind.

[Host]

So this vulnerability feels like it can't be received.

[Abir]

It just. And I was like. And you asked me to ask you, and I'm asking you.

[Host]

So.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I'm noticing a really common theme here. So in those moments you feel like I have no voice, really? Nope. I feel like I am in a situation where I'm unsafe to speak.

[Abir]

Yes.

[Host]

I'm not going to be received very well at all.

[Abir]

No.

[Host]

And is there anything else that you notice there?

[Abir]

I mean, that's just. I don't. I don't know. I mean, that was just my life. That's just how people were.

[Host]

And you mentioned that one of the biggest things you wanted to work on was that you see these themes in friendships.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And what's really interesting, and they're clearly a little bit connected, is like, you know, that we see our experience through the lens of our subconscious mind and when we're imprinted deeply by things. And you keep saying, you keep mentioning my friends become my family as an adult. Like, my friends are my family. And you keep mentioning that there's this sort of sense that with your friends, some of these friends that you have in Missouri, these people who you really connect with and you spend all this time with, now you're starting to feel like in moments of crisis or tough moments, it almost reminds me, almost hear this repeating pattern with this family member where you go through this moment of crisis. You need to. To speak. And. And there's this sense of losing your voice or not being received. And I'm curious what parallels you see there, for sure.

[Abir]

So I. I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I do tend to attract more avoidant leaning people, even though I don't. I was anxious leaning when I first started the school, but I don't feel that level of anxiety anymore. I don't know if I'm now in my avoidance or I'm more in the

[Host]

middle, probably more secure, probably.

[Abir]

But I do. I think the. The theme that I've constantly heard from people is you're the only person we can talk to, or you're the only person that helps us feel seen, or you're the only person that we can tell stuff and not feel shame. Because anything they tell me, I'd be like, you know what? I've been through that. Like, there's nothing wrong in feeling that there's no shame. You know, you can do this. Like, I will always be that voice of reason. Or even somebody that, like. Because there's one particular friend in this group that we're discussing at the Moment. Who's. He's definitely. I think he and this other person, they're both FAS in my opinion. But one of them is very avoidant leaning. And this particular friend will just refer him to as ap. He's definitely AP leaning. And so he's. He's got those emotions and those feelings of if I speak up, like, I will not be accepted or become a friend. And so like he always. He cannot speak because the other two are more avoidant leaning in the group. So he doesn't feel like he can vent to them. So he'll vent to me on the side. And so.

[Host]

And what is your relationship in the dynamic? What are you feeling? So you. Is it no voice? Is it feeling unsafe if you do express what are the themes that you're feeling?

[Abir]

And.

[Host]

And you can sort of pick one friend at a time if you'd like here.

[Abir]

I think I personally feel like I'm doing all the emotional lift. Okay.

[Host]

All the emotional labor, but I feel

[Abir]

like I also put myself in the role.

[Host]

Well, we'll get into that. Yeah, there might be a little.

[Abir]

I think it's very much my own doing, but I do feel like the emotional glue. The emotional.

[Host]

And what are you afraid happens if you don't?

[Abir]

If I don't, everything is going to fall apart.

[Host]

Okay, good. And then what happens if everything falls apart? Then you're what?

[Abir]

And then we don't have. We don't have this connection. I will lose the group. I will lose the connection.

[Host]

I will lose. I will lose. Just like there was a lot of loss going through childhood.

[Abir]

Like, if I don't keep everybody together, if I don't keep checking in, if I don't keep making plans.

[Host]

So. Hence the pressure cooker. The pressure cooker. By the way, no wonder you're tired. The pressure cooker has gone from career into your friend group. Yes.

[Abir]

No surprise.

[Host]

So there's probably still some tiredness happening because it's just shifted forms. Okay. So no voice, unsafe feeling, like you're not received if you do speak. I really heard fear of loss or abandonment. And is there anything else in there? Like, if I'm not doing all of this emotional labor, I will be anything else out of control?

[Abir]

Yes, for sure. Because if I am taking that role to do the emotional heavy lifting, to do the planning, then I can predict the outcome. I can give myself certainty because other after, if I don't do that, I don't know what I'm walking into. And I can't. I can't know that I'll Be safe. I can't. I can't know that I'll be safe.

[Host]

Okay, so we're going to start there. Okay. So I wanted to start with, if I don't do all the emotional labor, I can't know that I'll be Safe. Can you 100% know that? That is true. And what happens if you stop doing the emotional labor? Let's take a look. What's your worst case scenario?

[Abir]

Yeah. We may drift apart. And that's okay.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And try to notice that when you put all this pressure, I'm curious if we sort of shift this. Where do I rob my own safety when I do all the emotional labor?

[Abir]

Oh, there's no space for me at all because I'm always constantly thinking, this particular friend is more avoidant leaning. This is what he needs. This particular friend is a little bit on the spectrum. This is what he needs. This particular friend is always rejected, scared of, you know, is always doing whatever everybody else wants because he wants to be included and is scared of being excluded. So I need to take him into consideration and definitely make sure that we're doing something in the plan for him.

[Host]

And I can just imagine little aver who's living in her home going, I have to do this with this family member and I have to be this way. This family member and I have to be this way and this way.

[Abir]

That's crazy.

[Host]

And so. So the pattern is just shifting forms.

[Abir]

Oh, yes.

[Host]

Okay. And who's putting that emotional burden on you?

[Abir]

I think it's myself.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

But I also feel like when I set that standard, then everybody sits back and like, oh, a beer is going to take care of it. A beer will handle it.

[Host]

Like. And so what's a better way? What's a better way in this situation when you decide to unplug from the emotional labor and always being the one to give and take care and there's a sense of unsafety. Honestly. And always trying to control every outcome.

[Abir]

Yes.

[Host]

Like, it feels like it gives you short term control and certainty, but in the long term you're trying to control people.

[Abir]

Yes.

[Host]

And their perceptions and their emotions, which is something you can't control.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

So you're always trying to control something that's going to leave you feeling more unsafe and it's always going to feel like a losing battle that you're on the precipice of.

[Abir]

Yes. Self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah.

[Host]

And so. And so where is your real sense of safety here?

[Abir]

I think I have tried to. I have tried to sit with that and Try to give myself an example of a group of friends that I have now. And thanks to PDS for that.

[Host]

Thanks to you and how you showed up in PDS for that.

[Abir]

I thought it was very feisty, but okay, well, we'll take it. We'll take it. But I don't feel that with them. I have had many moments where I'm just like, I don't want to sit on a one on one conversation because I don't have the bandwidth to hold a conversation. So I'm not getting on zoom. One on one. I just can't do it. And they'll be like, okay, so one person could be like, hey, can we get on a call? And I'll. And if I'm like, yeah, I'm available. I just can't do one on one today. I don't have the bandwidth. Then be like, okay, if somebody else says, yes, we're here, we'll have a call. And if we're not, we won't. In the beginning, I felt the pressure to just hop on because if I don't, I will lose this person, I'll lose the connection, we'll drift apart. We've been going strong for four years.

[Host]

So try to notice this for a second, to try to slow down a little bit and just notice that. What was the difference? Was it just the people or was it also how you showed up with the people?

[Abir]

I think this particular group I was able to be more raw and honest and myself where I think I felt safe to say, I don't feel like doing this, guys. Like.

[Host]

And where did that safety come from? Notice how you say, I think I felt safe. As if. I think I felt safe to say, as if it's coming from other people.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

Which it could be co creating.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

But I want you to notice what had to happen in that for there to be a sense of safety.

[Abir]

To know what I needed. Right. I needed to know what I needed and to speak up.

[Host]

Yes.

[Abir]

Because that was not something I knew how to do before.

[Host]

And so when you built friendships with you creating your sense of safety by consistently choosing that, now it looks like, oh, these people, they're safe. Which they may be. They may be. But at the same time, Right. There's a sense of you had to show up in that way because had you not shown up and had you still people pleased, had you still just been available at everybody's beck and call, had you not been really raw and authentic, you still would have felt some degree of unsafety.

[Abir]

I think that's something I'm still working with myself. Myself is that I can be who I am and be accepted and loved for who I am. That people will see because everybody has flaws. I do. I have so many flaws. But I think I'm still making peace with if you see my flaws, you'll still stay because again, that little child made that connection long, long ago. And it was obviously enforced time and time again. And I remember telling. Because like the, the four group of friends, can I mention their names?

[Host]

Of course.

[Abir]

Him, Ranjith, Diane Kelly and Jake Myers and myself, we've had a very tight knit group and if I've gotten to a place of this healing today, it's. It wouldn't have been possible without the personal development school, you answering my questions and also them just sticking by me through the thick and thin. And we're getting together in June for the first time. All four of us are going to be together after all these years. But I was telling them that I am not myself right now. I've relapsed in my depression. Sometimes I'll just sit in one corner and not move and stare into space and just not just space out. And I am sad that you guys are going to get to see me at my worst. And Jake said, he's like, we're your best friends. We're here for your best and your worst and for everything in between.

[Host]

And try to notice that for a second and try to just slow down and really feel about it. Okay. And don't be afraid to sink into feeling that for a moment. And what does that feel like for you to actually be received that way by other people?

[Abir]

It's something I've not, I'm not used to. It's not something that's my baseline or default, even though every kid deserves to feel that.

[Host]

And I noticed that, that when you tell or share about these things, there's a tiny part of you that speeds through them.

[Abir]

I just don't want to, I don't

[Host]

want to say it because it might feel a little out of your comfort zone to feel about it and you won't fully receive until you let yourself feel it just a little bit. Okay, so I want to take you through a couple other places of that. What are other examples you have from this group of friends where you've been yourself? What struck me in what you just said too is you said, oh, I'm sorry, I'm not myself lately and you're not going to see me, you know, as my best self. But you saying that was so yourself you saying that was like, I'm not feeling good. You're going to see me and I'm not going to be feeling good. And there was this authenticity in that. And the moment you're authentic, you then allow yourself to be received in a way that's loving, in a way that your worthiness is not dependent on how you're showing up or performing or achieving or all the things you were taught to do.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And so do you have any other examples with that group of friends of when you haven't been yourself, but you've shared honestly and you actually felt more worthy?

[Abir]

Yes. I think the relationship that brought me to PDS because it came into my life at the time where I really didn't have a very strong sense of self, and I was still working towards that. And a lot of the healing work that I did during that relationship, after that relationship ended, was with these core group of friends. And I just remember the amounts, like the hours that they sat on the phone with me, and there would be random moments where it would hit me and I just would be crying uncontrollably. I remember Jake, in particular, he was in a meeting that he was part of this filming group, and he was in a meeting, like, he was supposed to share something and be part of the feedback group. And I texted him while he was in the meeting. I was like, hey, are you free by chance? And he's like, no, I'm in a meeting. Are you okay? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. You know, sorry, I'm. And nothing's wrong when something was wrong. And he knew that because he's an FA too. So he. He knows. And so he. He told me afterwards that he felt something. He felt something wasn't okay. And he had to tell his writing group, I gotta go. I. There's something I've gotta. I've gotta do. I've gotta go. And so then he hopped on a call with me, like, literally in five minutes, and he's like, I'm here. I'm like, you left your. You left your group.

[Host]

Why would you do that?

[Abir]

I'm fine. I'm fine. We can talk later.

[Host]

Like, notice how you go to him. Yeah, all that.

[Abir]

Good.

[Host]

So come to you for a moment. Come to you for a moment and go to that moment. Okay. Without the guilt. And go to that moment and allow yourself for just a second to feel about that, like, to properly sink into that, that there he is. There you are in a moment, and you really need somebody. It's a little scary to say it, but you say it indirectly and you have somebody drop what they're doing and show up and be there for you in a really beautiful way and get on the phone. And what do you feel the moment that you hear him say that? Underneath the guilt, what do you feel?

[Abir]

I just. That I'm worthy of this level of love and attention and consideration. You know, I had very, very scarce moments of that with my grandmother, and he reminded me of that. He brought it back to light that this did happen when I was a kid. It is possible it had nothing to do with who I was. I was inherently worth, worthy of it. And he brought it back in that moment.

[Host]

So that's really beautiful. Yeah. And we can go back to child for, for a moment if you'd like, and then we'll come back to as an adult. Yeah, but where was that sense of worthiness with your grandmother as a child?

[Abir]

So there's this one particular story which will speak volumes and I think everybody that I've shared with this have cried. So I apologize. Oh. So my grandma had issues with her knees and she couldn't walk very, very far. And I, at that time, I think I was 7 or 8, I don't remember, but I had chronic gut issues, which obviously makes sense now with all the stress and the trauma and the chronic abuse. And I was at school and at that moment in time, my parents were very deep into their careers. They could not leave work and come get me if I needed, and they didn't have anybody to drive and come get me either. And so if I knew that if I called my dad or my mom, I knew the answer I would get is like, we're busy, we can't come get you. And even if we do, it'll be a few hours and I'm in, I'm in pain. And during all of my issues with pain, like gut issues, my grandma was, would be the one caregiving. And so I remember calling home and I was in a lot of pain and I told my grandma, I was like, I don't, I don't know how to get home, but I'm not feeling good. My stomach hurts. And she knows how much I struggle when my stomach hurts. And so the school is like 10 minute walking distance at that time. And she's like, okay, well, I'll, I'll come get you. And I was just like, how are you going to come get me? You can't walk that far. She's like, you don't have to worry about that I'll come get you. And I remember standing in front of the school with the school nurse holding my hand because I told her my grandma is coming to get me. She'll be walking here, so we'll see her. And I see from far away. And I'll never forget this image of my grandma holding the walls of the houses next to her because there was like the, the, the, the. The wall guarding the houses. Right. And so she was just like limping and like holding the wall and supporting herself and taking one step at a time to come get me.

[Host]

And in that moment, what do you feel when you see her?

[Abir]

Just unconditional love.

[Host]

Yeah. And what does that actually feel like in your body?

[Abir]

Safe. It feels safe.

[Host]

And where do you feel that?

[Abir]

Like, definitely gut and chest. It's always the gut in the chest for me. It's always the gut in the chest for me.

[Host]

Really, really beautiful.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And so there's been these sort of sources on and off of people who appear who, who show up and have this sense of mirroring back worthiness and this love. And where else do you see it in your friend group today?

[Abir]

I mean, even this friend group that I'm currently having a hard time with, you know, I've had moments where I've been at home sick and they'll just show up. They're like, hey, we're outside of the. We're outside. Open the door. And you know, so I love each and every one of them.

[Host]

So stay there for one second. So stay there for one second. So what I hear is that this group of people may not be quite able to show up in love. Exactly in the way that you need.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

But that they're doing it in the way that they can and.

[Abir]

Or they know how.

[Host]

Yeah. That they. That is available to them at the time.

[Abir]

Yes.

[Host]

And what's a moment of that that you see?

[Abir]

I think for each of them, the one particular friend that I recently had a conflict within the group, which is what caused me to pull away, even though the way I shared it, I think it was a very FA moment, if I was telling on myself. And being perfectly honest, I think what had happened was I didn't speak up in real time and I didn't enforce the boundary. So by the time I spoke up about it, it was. It wasn't like a mean, dismissive way or a yelling way, but it was a very direct emotion.

[Host]

Tiny bit of friction underneath it. Yes. Yeah.

[Abir]

And I think we've talked about this a lot in our school. It's like Fearful avoidance. Like, they don't speak up, they don't speak up, they don't speak up. And then when finally do, it comes very sharp, very direct cuts, like a knife. Right. So it was a little like that. I'll. I'll take ownership for that. And he is on the spectrum and definitely avoidant leaning. And he's somebody who takes a long time to attach to people because of his own stuff. He's got his own abandonment stuff from his life. And I have a relationship with him. I feel proud that I have a relationship with him because I know how hard that is. I know how much it takes to attach when you've been through something like that. And it was hurting me that I was coming to a place where I wasn't. We weren't seeing eye to eye. And I thought because I've seen him do this with other people, his coping mechanism is, oh, it's fine. Like, if they don't want to talk to me, it's fine. If they don't want to hang out with me, it's fine. He kind of, like, is known to be, like, this master of, I can get through chaos and, like, not have any emotions and, like, not have any. I can just stay calm through any storm. Right. And so I thought that was what was gonna happen. Like, he was just gonna pull away, not speak to me again, and be

[Host]

kind of unscathed about it. Not even necessarily feel anything. And what do you feel when you believe that he's just gonna be fine?

[Abir]

I don't believe that he's gonna be fine. You couldn't make me believe.

[Host]

Okay.

[Abir]

That's my fearful avoidance.

[Host]

You know better.

[Abir]

I know better. I am able to see through that, but I was worried that it would. It would break us apart. And he. And because I've shut down, I'm not making the effort because I'm feeling unsafe. He still made the effort to reach out consistently and check in. Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

And was there a part of you that was pushing and pushing away? Yeah. And maybe it's not always in the perfect way. Right. But then we can always help people arrive and improve a little bit if we need to. Hey, I kind of need to be checked on this way instead of this way. And is there. What are you feeling?

[Abir]

I just. I don't know. I. I am still in a very shutdown space with this because I still keep going back to. But they disrespected me in this way, you know, and it hurt. And I don't. I'm not gonna.

[Host]

And what was the moment that he disrespected you, he would just.

[Abir]

He'd just not go with time. And it's not personal. Like he does this with everyone. Yeah.

[Host]

And it's okay. So. So stay so the. You do this really beautiful thing because you're very aware. But it's also gonna be your own Achilles heel where you kind of speed over and it's okay to slow down and like feel into things a little bit. And that's gonna be.

[Abir]

Actually, I don't want to.

[Host]

So you have this dynamic where you believe he disrespects you.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And what did he do that you jumped to that conclusion? Even if just briefly. Like maybe you consciously know better. But have you really felt into the other possibilities?

[Abir]

He would just pick a time and date to hang out one on one. And then he'd show up 30 to 45, sometimes an hour late.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

And that's consistently.

[Host]

And I think that's. That doesn't feel good for anybody.

[Abir]

No.

[Host]

Right. And it's very fair to not feel good about it.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

But notice the slight difference between I don't feel good about it versus believing that he doesn't respect me as a person.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And when you believe. Okay, he doesn't respect me as a person, where do you go? How do you start behaving?

[Abir]

I have to just protect myself.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

I have to get my walls up.

[Host]

And there's a little wall and a little wall. And then he shows up late again. And then you have another wall. And now there's distance. And now it becomes difficult. And what could you do now? Instead. So he reaches out to consistently check in with you now and he's trying to be there for you. It sounds like in the best way that he knows how. Even when he's. He's likely to usually go, it's fine, and kind of glaze over things and push away. Yeah. And is there anything that you can do to. To share a little bit more openly or course. Correct. Or say what you need.

[Abir]

I think if I could let myself be vulnerable and tell inside the shell. I don't know if I'll be able to come out of this in real time. Is feeling. I would say I'm sorry that I was so sharp about how I was feeling. I do feel really bad when I'm left waiting because that was a constant occurrence with my parents as a child. Like, my parents would not come pick us up on time from school. Like we'd always be waiting for several hours or at least an hour. And that felt awful. You're tired, you want to go home, you want to eat, and you don't know where your parents are. You don't know when they're coming. You have no certainty, no control. And that is where I go when I'm left waiting.

[Host]

And have you said that to him in that way?

[Abir]

No, that's what I would if I could.

[Host]

And what. What's stopping you?

[Abir]

And just. I just. It's too vulnerable. It's. It shows that I'm weak, and I don't want to be vulnerable and weak, even though I know consciously.

[Host]

Okay, so let's. Let's sit. So. Because you know consciously, but you have to feel into it. That's where it reaches your subconscious, and that's. That's where things will process out a little bit more. So. So if you're able to just sort of feel into it a little bit more, what about it is. Is courageous to actually speak? Like, what about you would be courageous to say that?

[Abir]

Create space for myself. Yeah, I. Yeah. That's what I'm essentially stopping myself from doing is creating space for myself.

[Host]

And notice how heavy it is to.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

Carry this burden alone. Right. Like, here you are in this friendship, and you can't say the truth. And so now you shut down and. But you do want the friendship and you do care, but I have to keep my walls up. And. And. And I'm weak. If I say anything.

[Abir]

Situation. To me, the chaotic situation, it sounds

[Host]

like a situation that would make you really tired.

[Abir]

I am exhausted, that's for sure.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And so if you were able to just open up a little bit and say that. And I think there's this maybe fear, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there's this fear that if I'm. If I'm. If I say it and it doesn't go perfectly as planned, then I can't take it. Then I won't be able to move through it, or I can't be on the receiving end of that. But you don't get broken. Like, you emerge, and you re. Emerge and you re. Emerge. And when we speak, it's not for the outcome. It's for how you want to move in the world.

[Abir]

Yeah. Right.

[Host]

It's for that. I want to be the person that speaks in my friendships. I want to be the person who gives people a chance for how they show up. And if he doesn't respond in the way that you need, you can always say, okay, it's a level three friendship. Maybe it's not a level five. Maybe It's a level three, and I can sit with that. But. But you're actually partially the one here closing and pushing when you choose to not speak. So are you open to trying to have that conversation?

[Abir]

Yes. I actually was hoping that after the session that was. That would be something I'd be able to do because, like, one of them who's avoidant leaning, he hasn't reached out, but I know that he's reached out through other people because the AP one has been reaching out, but the way he's been reaching out is indirectly trying to get me to come over to

[Host]

his house to bring you and to bring.

[Abir]

Because he doesn't want to reach out.

[Host]

He doesn't know how to say it.

[Abir]

He doesn't want to reach out because the. The reputation I have in my friend group is like, I'm this fiery, feisty person who's always bantering and always saying some weird stuff, like, a beer is, like, strong, you know, and then now we have a moment where a beer has shut down and we don't know what to do. She's out of the group. No more plans are happening. She's not responding. She's not showing up. We don't want to lose her. We don't know what to do. We love her. We just, you know, and so they.

[Host]

And what do you see? So. So just outside of explaining, like, what do you. What do you see there in them? Do you see people who are trying to really love you in the way that they.

[Abir]

Yeah, and I won't let them. I just won't let them.

[Host]

Yeah. And what happens to you every time you decide to not let them?

[Abir]

I just obviously create myself a space where people can't show up for me and I'm alone and I lose connection, which feeds into abandonment, obviously.

[Host]

And then I. And then I exhaust myself.

[Abir]

I am t. I'm extremely tired. I'm always tired. Yeah.

[Host]

And so what do it look like to just show up and have the conversation there with that friend? So you have a conversation with our first friend. We. We've established that the one that you can say, hey, it hurt me when you're not showing up on time. And here's what I need. And I shut down and can we work on it? But what about with this friend who. Who hasn't reached out, but you're trying to indirectly. Can you go to their house together

[Abir]

yesterday? Actually, I couldn't physically go. I was at the Niagara Falls, but I don't know. I'll try.

[Host]

And what would you need when when you go there,

[Abir]

I think he would just come sit next to me and give me a hug because he loves to cuddle. He shows his love through physical affection, and that's beautiful.

[Host]

I love that we can receive that and we can feel that, but you also need something. And for you to actually make these relationships work, you have to start sharing a little bit more of it.

[Abir]

I would. I would really love it if he could be a little less dismissive and just hear me. He doesn't have to agree with me. You know, he just. I just. I just. It'd be. He doesn't have to even say sorry. I would just love it if he could just be like, I can see where you're coming from.

[Host]

So. So I'm your friend now. Okay. Okay. And walk me through that for a second. What would you say if I were him?

[Abir]

That I really love you, and I really care about this friendship, and that I know that it's coming from a loving place. But sometimes when I'm sharing things that I'm going through and your responses, it feels to me like you're brushing it under the rug, even though that not may not be your intention. I just want you to let me feel it, and I just want you to be there for me so I know I'm not going through it alone.

[Host]

That's beautiful. And if you have a friend who's a little bit avoidant, who may not know exactly what to do. Can you give a specific. Paint a picture example of.

[Abir]

I would love it if I could get a blanket and if you could just cuddle me for a little bit, that'd be great.

[Host]

And. And is that. So that's a beautiful thing right then and there. That's. That's perfect. And is there also a part where you need, if you do share something, for him to say something differently?

[Abir]

I don't know how to frame that. I think I would just. I would just love it if he could be like, maybe. Maybe just open up a little bit. Maybe just.

[Host]

Just say he cares.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

Hey. I don't know what to do right now. Beer. To support you, but I care.

[Abir]

But I'm here for you, and I'll always be here for you, you know?

[Host]

So you need a little bit of reassurance that he's there, that somebody's there in your life in that way.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And so is that a fair ask to have that conversation? Yeah. And without the story that, you know, you're in that dynamic and they can't really see you or you're unworthy or some of these things that you carry. Do you think that there is a possibility that that conversation can go well?

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay, so when are we gonna have the conversation?

[Abir]

Probably after I go back tomorrow.

[Host]

Okay.

[Abir]

I'll probably send a text. Because they've spent, like, two weeks now reaching out, and I have just. And I respond because, of course, I don't want to shut the door. I know better.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Abir]

Because that has happened to me. But I haven't really let them in. Yeah. They've been shut out.

[Host]

And there's this little girl who grew up in a situation where you didn't get your needs met, and they weren't met in the way that you needed, and you lost your voice. And the only way you protect and support that little girl as an adult is through constantly showing up and voicing your needs and making sure that you don't abandon that little girl again by allowing yourself to take up space. And you'll notice every single time. And I want to look at this for a moment. Every single time that you. You don't speak. Can you tell me a couple of costs that come up for you?

[Abir]

I just pave a way for there to be a world where there's not much space for me or my needs or who I am as a person. Like, I broke through so much to be here, to create a life for myself, and here I have the opportunity to do that, and I'm too scared to take it.

[Host]

Not too scared. Trying to protect yourself. I don't think there's. I think you're very strong.

[Abir]

I think you might be the scary

[Host]

one, but I think you absolutely have the fearlessness to be able to show up and do it. I think there's just this part that you want to go protect.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

But there's a confusion, Right. That protection meant being quiet as a child because you didn't have any other options. But you're not there any longer.

[Abir]

Right.

[Host]

And so protecting now looks like speaking.

[Abir]

Yes.

[Host]

And sharing and opening and constantly opening and breaking yourself open and breaking yourself open until that just becomes this new baseline.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And is there any benefits that you can see? Like, what does life look like if you're not sitting in a dynamic where you close and you close and you close? What do you feel and what does life look like instead?

[Abir]

Obviously, the relationships are going to be healthier.

[Host]

Right.

[Abir]

Because I'll be able to keep them around consistently and build and grow with them or have them maybe show them a way to grow with me or meet them where they're at and maybe Build a relationship at that level, just something, instead of just cutting it off. Because that's never okay. That's never okay. I know that. I just need to do it.

[Host]

And it's also exhausting to keep living through this pattern. Right. And notice that ultimately it's a little bit of you exhausting you. Right. Every time I choose to repeat this pattern, I choose to go down that path. And it doesn't have to be everything at once. It doesn't have to be that, like, all of a sudden, here I am doing it all at once, but just being able to take a step forward and a step forward and communicate a little bit more and a little bit more. And can you picture what your life looks like? Is there a sense of a burden being lifted? Is there a sense of freedom? Is there a sense of maybe getting some energy back instead of being in this constant heaviness in your mind this way?

[Abir]

Yes. And I think I would describe it as when I first got the Islamic clothing off of me, right? The hijab, the abaya, and I was able to wear normal clothes. And I was 13. I was a young girl. And just taking that off, the weight that got lifted off of me because I could be one step closer to myself now I'm. I have tattoos, I have all these guy friends. I'm doing everything I'm not supposed to or was taught not to, but. But I. I just will continue on that path of creating an authentic life for myself. Because this is a. This is my favorite quote from Gabor, mate, there's going to be pain either way. You know, there might be pain if you're being authentic and you're losing connection, or you choose the connection to lose authenticity. And I think authenticity stands true for me every single day.

[Host]

Huge need. You can see. It's one of your big personalities every two through your whole story. Yeah.

[Abir]

Every single time. I am so. And I feel it in my gut. And people be like, no, no, no, that's not how it is. And then, like, months or years later, like, I said that I said that

[Host]

would happen, and it happened.

[Abir]

Like, why I listen to myself.

[Host]

And you have this really beautiful thing that happens to you where your exhaustion is always your direct feedback that you're out of your authenticity. And I bet if you look back at every moment in life where you started to feel heavy and tired and exhausted, there's probably this constant that was you leaving your authenticity, leaving your freedom of being yourself. And then this heaviness comes out of nowhere, and all of a sudden you feel that and the weight of that makes sense.

[Abir]

Right? The relapse and the depression and me staying in bed all the time. I mean, ye. I mean, it's no surprise that authenticity and freedom from all of that continue to be the leading factor in my life. Like if there's no freedom and I cannot be myself, I don't want to part in it. I just don't.

[Host]

And are those two of your big, big personality needs?

[Abir]

Absolutely.

[Host]

Yeah. And as soon as we get out of our alignment with our needs, you know, we're likely to start feeling chronic sadness, frustration, grief, heaviness, exhaustion, all these things. So you constantly get that direct feedback there.

[Abir]

Yep.

[Host]

Okay, so I want to share with you in, in summary, a tool. Okay. To take home with you. Okay. So two things. So one of the first things just to keep you like in a place where you're going to honor those needs more than anything. Because I think you have this really interesting pattern where there's been a lot of pressure in your life and a lot of hardship, a lot of really hard things. And I think that you've been in a kind of quiet internal battle for a lot of your life that easily shows back up in your conditioning between who I am and what the world wants from me.

[Abir]

Yeah.

[Host]

And when you feel like the world wants something other than who you are, I think it's quick. You're quick to jump to it, then I'm unworthy, and then you're quick to jump to, okay, then I step out of my authenticity briefly or I close down because this is heavy to heavy burden for me to bear. And I think instead we want to see why you are going to stay in alignment. And that's going to be your number one thing. You always do. There's not going to be a temptation to step out of your sense of truth. And one of the best things is cost benefit work, but actually like rewiring in your cost benefit work. So I would say 21 days for sure. Okay. Of all the costs of leaving myself, all the heaviness, all the pain to relationships, all the cost to my self esteem, my own sense of self worth. Because you rob yourself when you leave your authenticity 100%. And it's not just triggering, by the way, like typical patterns of somebody else leaving their authenticity who grew up in like kind of a hard household or challenging situation, but not that hard for you. You leaving your authenticity goes right back into all of those patterns reemerging from childhood. And you had a lot more heaviness there than the average person.

[Abir]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Host]

So, so we've got 21 days of all of writing out 10 to 15 costs of like all the cost of leaving your authenticity. 10 to 15 benefits to keeping it. Okay. And obviously rinsing, repeating feeling about it in a suggestible state in your alpha brainwave state for, for 21 days is going to really help to make sure that you're, you're not gonna be quick to lose your authenticity and relationships with others again, even if just briefly. And then the other thing I would do is at least 21 days, maybe closer to 60 days of exposure work on in every friend relationship individually that you have and being able to actually open and say hey, this is what's going on for me before it gets to a point where you've carried it for so long. And sometimes exposure work, when you're so used to being the emotional labor and the relationships or it's such your pattern, sometimes it's easy to actually forget to do exposure work.

[Abir]

Work. Oh yeah.

[Host]

So in the evening, as part of an evening routine, just doing an evening check in. Is there anything I haven't shared today with a friend that I need to. Is there anything I need to share to be more authentic in my life with somebody? Is there any way that I should speak up differently? And that way each day you have this little accountability metric where you're tapped in, you're sharing, you're speaking up and then you're going to allow yourself to not just be in your authenticity, but to be in connection that's reciprocal according to your truth.

[Abir]

Okay, that sounds like a great plan. So I think my big takeaway from all of this is that I'm still guarding myself up to self protect and that may not be it work. It's worked for me in the past because it's got me to where I'm at. But I'm noticing that that's blocking me from having pure authentic connections and being true to myself. And I think I need to work on that part. I think that is what is ultimately going to get me out of this stuck space, that entire space that I feel in for a while now.

[Host]

But yeah, if you want to do any of this work at home, you can actually check this out in our emotional mastery and belief reprogramming course, which, which helps you source all of your subconscious core beliefs and actually work through them in a very efficient manner. You can check it out fully for free for a limited time using the link down below. So thank you so much of your for being here. You are absolutely amazing. And I'm. I'm honored to sit with you.

[Abir]

Likewise. On the nth degree. Thank you.