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- [00:00]
April Ajoy
You're listening to a new evangelicals production.
- [00:08]
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- [00:44]
April Ajoy
The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.
- [00:52]
Tim Whitaker
Should I intro us or do you want to intro us?
- [00:55]
April Ajoy
You go. You go.
- [00:57]
Tim Whitaker
You're so kind. Thank you.
- [00:58]
April Ajoy
Thank you.
- [01:00]
Tim Whitaker
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the show. I am Tim Whitaker.
- [01:03]
April Ajoy
I'm April Ajoy.
- [01:05]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, today, you know, I don't know, April, I texted you before we started recording. I said, what if we did an audible because we had a plan about talking about the MAGA Civil war that's happening and Tucker Carlson and we could do that. That's always there. But I don't know. I mean, we're recording this and this will be out a week later, but we're recording this the day after the President announced that he was gonna ethnically cleanse an entire region and erase an entire civilization if they didn't, like, do what he wanted. And I don't know if I could talk about anything else besides how crappy I feel about this entire situation that is America. So I figured we would just talk about our feelings and have public therapy, frankly.
- [01:46]
April Ajoy
Oh, my gosh. I know. I feel like it's been just a rollercoaster of feelings and dread and emotions and then your parenting on top of that.
- [01:57]
Tim Whitaker
Yes. Yeah. I mean, yeah, ours are four and six. How old are yours? We talked about this.
- [02:01]
April Ajoy
Nine and seven.
- [02:03]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah. So we're like, in the throes of the parent life. And honestly, I think at this point, parenting and my family is, like, by far the brightest spot in my day. You know, I love being able to work from home and see my kids, but it is. I don't. It's hard to. Most people do not understand, like, the content creator cycle in this specific lane. I mean, content creation in general is tough, especially to do it, like, you know, for a living, because you're living and dying by these algorithms. But when you're talking about heavy stuff like, you know, Christian nationalism or all the hatred and dehumanization that we see it is. You're in it all the time, and it just, it takes a toll on you, for sure.
- [02:44]
April Ajoy
Yeah. Well. And then also you can, you can say everything that you mean to say, and someone is going to mishear what you say and, like, assume the worst interpretation of what you're saying, too. And so, like, on top of dealing with the world and Trump and the chaos of all of that, there's also this constant just. You're constantly seeing opinions from strangers about you and what you say, which is, it's not like, you know, we know that going into this work, but it does, it can take a toll. Yeah.
- [03:25]
Tim Whitaker
I mean, we do this episode every Tuesday. We do a live every Thursday. You have your own content. I have my own content on top of that. And I don't know, I just felt like it'd be good just to talk about the reality that I'm sure the audience feels too of, like, it's just a very. Every day you just wonder, like, how worse, how much worse can it get? And every day, somehow it exceeds your expectations of how much worse it can get. Like, I, I, we are, we have, we're at the point where we've normalized a sitting president threatening on his own social media platform to wipe out an entire civilization. Those are his words that will probably never come back. Also his words. And that is somehow accepted. I mean, it's accepted by a lot of people now because, you know, what happened Iran, or they figured out the peace talks or peace talks, air quotes at the last minute. And now MAGA people are like, see, he's a master negotiator. And I'm like, you cannot be serious. You can't think that this is master negotiation skills. Like, we are, we are so far into, like, Looney Tunes land that what is now, what would have been seen as literally insane even 10 years ago is now just like, well, that's just Trump. That's just how MAGA is. And somehow they're in power.
- [04:42]
April Ajoy
Well, and at least as of this recording, we're worse off than we were before the war.
- [04:50]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah. I appreciate you saying as of this recording, but I don't think in a week that's gonna get much better.
- [04:56]
April Ajoy
No, I don't think so. That's the thing. I feel like it's bad news to try to talk about the current events because by the time this airs in a few days, it's going to be old news. So I don't know about you, but one of the more frustrating things about this whole thing. Obviously, the most frustrating and infuriating is that Donald Trump is our president again. And like, I still. My brain can still not comprehend really how that even happened after everything.
- [05:25]
Tim Whitaker
Everything.
- [05:26]
April Ajoy
But what really frustrates me is, is still seeing so many evangelicals and MAGA Christians finding new ways to justify each new horror. Like, that is the most frustrating thing to me. And I don't know if you've seen this, but I have seen a little bit of an uptick in people that I have historically seen as being very MAGA that are. But are evangelical that are starting to say, well, you know, because with every Trump is. I feel like getting. He's at least overtly getting worse. Like, I, I think there's. He didn't openly call for genocide in the first term that I recall. You know, so I feel like we're. He's turning the volume way up and
- [06:13]
Tim Whitaker
all those prayers by Paula White are not working. They're not. God's not talking to Trump for some.
- [06:18]
April Ajoy
I mean, he dropped a F bomb on Easter Sunday. And for evangelicals, that's worse than real bombs for some reason.
- [06:26]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, that's so tr. True. Right.
- [06:29]
April Ajoy
So. But then they're still finding ways to justify that. But I will say it's becoming a lot harder to justify being a Trump supporter as a Christian, even though I would argue it's always been hard to do that, but it's becoming, like, even more obvious. And so I've seen a little bit of an uptick because I've been calling him out like crazy online. I'm like, hey, evangelicals, how can you still support this man? Like, how could you have voted for him? It's okay to admit that you were wrong. And I've seen an uptick of people, because usually it would be people to, like, double down, been like, he's a Christian. He's doing great. We love him. And there are still some of those. But I've been seeing more of people saying, like, well, what did you expect from us? We just voted for the lesser of two evils.
- [07:15]
Tim Whitaker
Right. And could have been worse. It could have had Harris. Okay. Really?
- [07:20]
April Ajoy
Right. And so really, that. That actually pisses me off because 1. And I know not. I'm sure there were a lot of people that thought that was the case at the time when they voted, but most evangelicals were very clear. Donald Trump was the only Christian option. They painted Kamala as an anti Christian candidate despite her being a Christian. They said that you can't be a Christian and vote Democrat, that if you vote for a Democrat, you should be put under church discipline. I mean, they were hounding us prior to the election that Christians had to vote for Donald Trump. And, and not because he was the lesser of two evils, but because he was God's chosen candidate. That he stood up for Christian values that we've never had as Christian of a president as Donald Trump. That was. They hounded that over the last decade. So for them to now come out and be like, well, he was just the lesser of two evils. Bs. That is not what y' all said then. But then two. It also pisses me off that after everything, they still think he is the lesser of two evils. Like, bro, you picked the most evil.
- [08:37]
Tim Whitaker
The most. The most. The. I mean, this guy makes Ronald Reagan seem like, you know, top tier. I mean, seriously, it is, it, it is, it is very bizarre to grow up in a church space that is so focused on repentance of sin.
- [08:57]
April Ajoy
Yeah.
- [08:57]
Tim Whitaker
And then the same people who taught you that refused to repent and acknowledge that they were wrong about voting for, for the most immoral, megalomaniac, genocidal man that we've had in a long time in the Oval Office. And their excuse is, well, I voted for the lesser of. What is that? My question to those people and if maybe there's someone out there who's listening, who's a MAGA person, like, what does that make. What do you think America would look like? How would your life, what would it look like right now if it was President Harris? Do you think that, I don't know, undocumented immigrants would be like kicking down your doors and like stealing your house? Do you think that, that like your kids would be quote unquote trans, like, as they say, like, what do you think would actually happen? Because what I can tell you for sure wouldn't be happening is there wouldn't be mass federal armed agents with immunity running through our streets, kidnapping people, killing people and causing destruction and violence. That is totally unnecessary. You, I can definitely promise you that wouldn't be a thing. I really sincerely doubt that we would be dropping bombs in Iran at the tune of a billion dollars a day. I sincerely doubt that your taxpayer money. Well, this, this is a possible possibility, but I don't think it would be this high. Trump just asked for the largest increase in the military budget since World War II. $1.42 trillion budget, which by the way is, is higher than most countries entire GDPs. Although Democrats are part of the war industrial complex. I don't think Harris would be asking for that large of a raise. And I don't think she'd be asking it also to cut social programs at 10%. Okay. I just don't, like, I want my tax dollars to go towards helping my neighbors. I don't want them going towards bombing children in Iran. And I mean, the economy isn't good. We did not. We're not growing. The job market isn't doing well. So stock market is down, gas is up. Like, inflation hasn't really went down from where it was when Biden was in office. Like, I just want to know, what exactly did you think would happen if Harris got in? Because I don't think it'd be anywhere near the level of chaos that we have right now with, with a deranged man named Trump who's also in the Epstein files and covering that up.
- [11:19]
April Ajoy
Right.
- [11:19]
Tim Whitaker
I need, like, real world, tangible examples of what they think would actually be happening. I just do. Because one more thing. I'll say, even abortion rates have slightly risen under Trump. People overlook this all the time. When Roe v. Wade was overturned, abortion rates rose. They did not go down. They didn't go down. They actually rose. So he's not even accomplishing the pro life rhetoric that you often hear Christians use of, well, he's pro life. He wants to save babies from being slaughtered. He's not even doing that even by their own standards. I just don't know. I don't know what it is that they think this guy is doing that is saving the country.
- [11:57]
April Ajoy
I think it really goes back to the way that they even view what a Christian is. It's all about saying the right things and believing the right things. They don't give a crap about whether or not you actually do those things. It's like the performative nature of that faith of evangelicalism is super performative. The, the whole thing from the, the way that we do worship and the way that, that, you know, it, you make your, your Easter post and you, you say all the right things. And like, literally they would say, oh, that person's a great Christian, based on what they just say publicly. It does not matter what they actually do. And Donald Trump says the things that they think they like that they want to hear. Right. And for the record, like his Easter message, not the actual Easter message that he posted on Easter, but the video that he released where he did talk about, you know, the Jesus rose again and blah, blah, blah, like it was a fight. It was a good message. It was a generic Christian message that I would bet money he did not write.
- [13:06]
Tim Whitaker
I would have bet my life savings he didn't write that. Could you imagine Trump late at night? Oh, man, I feel message, right? Like, not now. I cannot be bothered. I'm writing an Easter message to America. Could you imagine him doing that?
- [13:21]
April Ajoy
Yeah. No, I could not imagine. But he does those performative things, right? That's a performance. And they see that. And oh, the amount of evangelicals that I saw sharing that, like, oh, I'm so glad we have a Christian president who know, like, this is amazing and sharing that video. But we're frickin silent on Easter morning when he threatened to bomb Iran and then said praise be to Allah. Like, if. Can you just imagine if President Obama had said that? And, yeah, they were like, he was just mocking them. I don't care. Mocking or not mocking, what are we doing? What are we even doing if President
- [14:04]
Tim Whitaker
Obama made that first off, guys. And again, I know that this is useless information. It just feels good to say. I just need to say it to the Internet.
- [14:12]
April Ajoy
This is a venting episode.
- [14:13]
Tim Whitaker
This is just. I hope people feel seen because I always think about the tan suit controversy. I think about. Do you remember the gray Poupon controversy? President Obama asked for grape poupon on his burger and Sean Hannity and Fox made an entire segment out of it. Okay, if. If President Obama tweeted what Trump tweeted on Easter, you know what you would hear? He's a commie. He's a Muslim. He hates. He's trying to institute Sharia law. Like, all the conspiracy nonsense that we heard, all that garbage would be used, and that would be the proof of. Of him doing that stuff. Yeah, but when Trump does it, oh, he's playing 4D chess. Oh, he's so smart. Oh, he's just being. He's just. He's just, you know, negotiating. He's just. It's just. There's always. There's always an excuse.
- [15:02]
April Ajoy
One, the worst excuse I saw. Tell me, Dinesh d', Souza, compare him to.
- [15:11]
Tim Whitaker
Is it on your. On your Instagram?
- [15:13]
April Ajoy
I think it's on my threads. I don't know if I shared it to Instagram. Here, I'll just. I'll read it to you. Let me find it. Dinesh d'. Souza. So quote tweets what Trump says, or, like, reference referencing what Trump says when he says praise be to Allah after threatening to blow up Iran, says, if you're still trying to figure out Trump's praise be to Allah, reflect on this. And Elijah mocked the prophets of BAAL saying, Cry aloud. For he is a God. Either he is musing or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened. Literally. Compared Donald Trump to an Old Testament prophet, Elijah.
- [15:56]
Tim Whitaker
How many likes did this tweet get? Thousands.
- [15:59]
April Ajoy
I don't. Let me, you know, let me go. Let me go see.
- [16:01]
Tim Whitaker
I just. I just can't believe this. It is so.
- [16:05]
April Ajoy
And Eric Metaxas retweeted it and, like, agreed. Yes. Hold on. Let me show you what he said.
- [16:10]
Tim Whitaker
Oh, my gosh.
- [16:11]
April Ajoy
No, it's literally the. The way I. The way their brains find ways to justify this. Absolutely. Like, bonkers. It is.
- [16:24]
Tim Whitaker
Okay. I just had a thought.
- [16:25]
April Ajoy
Okay, tell me.
- [16:26]
Tim Whitaker
This is such a crazy thought. Do you know how, as science develops, we get more terms to describe things about humanity that we didn't know before? Like, for example, autism. Right. We have this term now, autism, that there's a spectrum. We didn't know that before. Do you think that we are watching some other kind of, like, mental health disorder or some kind of virus that makes people do the unthinkable when it comes to this kind of stuff? Is there a certain term that. That science has not discovered yet, that in 50 years from now, we'll look back and we'll go, oh, that's what they had. That's what. That. That was the condition that they were suffering from. Because I. I don't know how you do this. I. I do not. I cannot for the life of me, as a former conservative, still very Christian person, I do not know how you claim to be a Christian and then think that comparing Donald J. Trump to Elijah is somehow, like, a sensible thing to do. I know even the most prosperity gospel teachers would not make such crazy comparisons a couple years ago. And here we are.
- [17:36]
April Ajoy
There's what Eric. Eric Metaxas said. He quote tweets that Dinesh tweet that we just said. And he said, Trump knows the God of the Irg Muslims is a false and evil entity, just as BAAL is. I love that he would mock that God publicly. We need more of this, not less. The fact that they are even thinking for a split second that. That. That Donald Trump thought that through and was like, Allah is like, bail, and I'm going to mock them just like Elijah did. And like, they are. They have lost their minds. They've lost the plot completely.
- [18:16]
Tim Whitaker
Oh, yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of us who grew up in this world, even though we know how it happened, like, we're just so still. I'M still bewildered by it. I just can't, like, because I'm still Christian. That's the thing is, like, I didn't, like, deconstruct and like, go, I, you know, I'm an atheist now, which, again, no shade to my atheist friends. I get it. But for me, it was like, I left your spaces to find Jesus, because whatever's going on here, I, I don't know where the, where this Jesus that even you taught me about. Like, you know, I, I was. I'm old enough now, I can't believe I'm saying this, to have the, the, like, flannel boards, you know, little, like, Velcro dudes. I remember, yeah, I remember the stories that, that they taught me about David and Daniel and standing bold for your faith and the story of Jesus feeding the hungry. Like, I, again, like, my little conservative evangelical churches taught me this stuff. They taught me the songs that Jesus loves the little children of the world. Like, that was them. And it is just really bizarre to watch so many of those same people, I don't know, like, just go for this way of thinking politically. That is, it just creates some of the most chaotic hell on earth scenarios that you can imagine. And they consistently find ways to excuse the behavior. Like, we, We. There could be a. We said this earlier a couple weeks ago. There could be a video of Trump literally abusing a minor and they would still find a way to, to defend it. I, I am abs. They would say it's AI. It's not real. It's not what you think. Well, you know, she wasn't that young. Like, they would, they would think about any way possible to rationalize why. Well, I still voted for the lesser of two evils. In fact, Megyn Kelly. Megyn Kelly, I'm not sure if you saw this the other day, said that, like, if. If the Republicans knew. Nuked another country, she would still vote Republican because Democrats are trying to nuke our country. That's what she said. Like, what do you do with that level of logic?
- [20:11]
April Ajoy
Out of, out of touch? I don't.
- [20:13]
Tim Whitaker
What do you do with that?
- [20:14]
April Ajoy
Know what it is? I don't know if it's pride. And you just cannot admit that you were wrong. I mean, I will say
- [20:22]
Tim Whitaker
she said Donald Trump could drop a nuke, and I still vote Republican.
- [20:26]
April Ajoy
That's wild. I.
- [20:27]
Tim Whitaker
These are, by the way, these are the people that call Hamas a terrorist organization. These are the people that call, you know, like, the Iranian government, which, by the way, is a tyrannical government. That's bad but they have the audacity to claim that Iran is oppressing its people and Iran is a terrorist organization, you know, regime. And we're the ones with our pundits who are close to the president saying if we nuked another country, we'd still support them. Like, hello, we're also the terrorists. Like, we are the bad guys in this. We are on the wrong side of this. We have been for a long time. We, we were the ones who overthrew the Iranian government in the first place, all decades ago. Like, we have destabilized region after region, and then when those people get angry enough to do something about it, then we cry foul and then we overthrow the regime again. It's like we're the bad guy here. We have our little, our, all of our little colonizing tentacles in all parts of the world.
- [21:20]
Melinda Hale
Right.
- [21:20]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [21:21]
April Ajoy
I do think the indoctrination that like Democrats are the most evil entity out there, that goes really deep. I mean, even when I. So I will say maybe my, my proudest thing, maybe probably not my proudest, but one thing that I will brag to my grandkids about one day is that I was a die hard Republican. And as soon as Trump came on the scene, I said, no, no way. I was a never Trumper from day one.
- [21:52]
Tim Whitaker
Same.
- [21:54]
April Ajoy
And that is something that I'm proud of. But even though I saw through Trump really early and I was like, there's no way, like, my own integrity would allow me to vote for such a morally bankrupt person. And that was in 2016, prior to all of these new horrors that have come out.
- [22:08]
Tim Whitaker
Wait, did you vote third party or did you vote for Clinton?
- [22:11]
April Ajoy
I voted third party.
- [22:12]
Tim Whitaker
Me too. Me too. That was a compromise. Yeah.
- [22:14]
April Ajoy
Right. Because I still couldn't vote for a Democrat.
- [22:17]
Tim Whitaker
Exactly.
- [22:17]
April Ajoy
Because I still believed that it was almost a cardinal sin to vote for a Democrat because of the conditioning that I had been taught going to evangelical churches my entire life. You know, they're called demon rats. And really the main thing is abortion, but also queer issues. But mainly abortion. Because you genuinely believe that Democrats just want to murder babies.
- [22:38]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah. They want to go around just killing people like, like, like Pharaoh did with the, with the, with the, all the Hebrew boys in the Bible.
- [22:46]
April Ajoy
Right. And so it's so hard. Yeah, it's so hard to have that conversation, though. Because if you, like when you genuinely believe that abortion is always baby murder, that's like a non starter.
- [23:01]
Tim Whitaker
Right.
- [23:02]
April Ajoy
Because like, I couldn't vote for Trump because he was immoral. I also couldn't Vote for what I believed was baby murder, which now I know abortion is so much more nuanced than I was ever taught about it. But it's really hard to have those conversations with people. I mean, especially online, but even in person, people that have always been conditioned to vote Republican because of that issue, you start to have the conversation like, well, what about this? What about this? Like, no, like, it's the, the hard line is baby murders. Like, you can't even. They don't. They, they, they have these defenses built up. And even people now are. To justify voting for Trump still, we're like, well, he's still the lesser of two evils because I still could never vote for baby murder, despite the fact that Trump bombed a school.
- [23:46]
Tim Whitaker
Well, that's the thing is, like, again, if you. I think, like, this is part of the real frustration for me is that it's just rhetoric. Like, there's no actual value here. Again, abortions rose under Trump slightly.
- [24:03]
April Ajoy
Right.
- [24:04]
Tim Whitaker
Isn't that directly against your goal of stopping abortion? Like, I think that was, for me, like, one of the moments where I really started shifting my position from pro life to a more pro choice position, where I told myself, wait, if we know that, like, statistically access to contraceptives and affordable health care and affordable wage, livable wages all contribute to lowering abortion rates because they lower unexpected pregnancies, why would we, as the people who think that abortion is murder, not do everything we could pragmatic, as pragmatically as possible to, to institute all those things? Like, why would we not? Why would. And we also know, by the way, that abortion bans do not often lower abortions because people will see them in other ways. Like, it doesn't really solve the problem.
- [24:49]
April Ajoy
And often in more dangerous ways.
- [24:51]
Tim Whitaker
Yes. And that was the beginning of me being like, wait a second, guys. Like, you don't want people to have contraceptives. You don't want people to use protection. You don't want people to have access to affordable health care or livable wages so they can raise that child and in a really healthy environment. You don't want our public schools to be better. You don't wanna give them free lunch at school when we absolutely could. That was the beginning of me being like, I'm not sure if this is pro life at all. I think this is more just like, you know, pro control. Because where's the life part of this? Like, where is it? How can you vote against stripping funding for school lunches for kids and claim to be pro life?
- [25:25]
April Ajoy
Right. Well, and that Hypocrisy was like the, like one of the first strings to start pulling on the, like recognizing the Republican hypocrisy of it all. And then once I realized, because I genuinely was like anti abortion because I. Same same, you know, because I, I thought it was baby murder. And when I. There was a graph that went around that just showed the abortion rate nationally and how it actually lowered more under Democratic presidents and policies than under Republican policies. And that was when I realized I actually, like Democrats were the only ones that were addressing the problem. Right. Which the problem is unwanted or unviable pregnancies. Abortion is a symptom.
- [26:16]
Tim Whitaker
Right.
- [26:17]
April Ajoy
The problem.
- [26:17]
Tim Whitaker
Right.
- [26:18]
April Ajoy
And it was, and it was only Democrats that wanted comprehensive sex education that actually teaches people how to have safe sex so they don't accidentally get pregnant and access to birth control and health care and then also paid family leave. And you like, like the, all the things that you would need to lower the abortion rate, like that's actually addressing the problem were coming from Democrats and those were all things that Republicans fought against.
- [26:43]
Tim Whitaker
Right.
- [26:44]
April Ajoy
And I was like, okay, even though Republicans are technically the ones saying that they're against abortion and it's baby murder and they're pro life, their actions don't back that up. And Democrats, even though they say it's a woman's right to choose and they don't really talk very pro life in that way, their policies actually lower abortion rates. And so that was like, logically I was like, okay, if my goal is to lower the abortion rate because I genuinely want to quote, unquote, save babies, then I have to vote for the Democrat option. That's right, because the Republican option has proven that it does not work except it's performative, which goes back to what we were talking about earlier, where Donald Trump performatively says Christianese things, but doesn't back any of that up.
- [27:36]
Tim Whitaker
And here we are. I mean, here we are.
- [27:38]
April Ajoy
Here we are.
- [27:39]
Tim Whitaker
Here we are.
- [27:44]
Tim from Portland, Oregon (Listener)
This is Tim from Portland, Oregon, and I'm a new donor. I grew up in a fundamental church environment being taught that our way was the right way. After getting married, my wife and I then started to meet followers of Jesus that were outside of the paradigm of what a Jesus follower quote should be. Eventually we started to realize that actually following Jesus is pretty simple. Love God and love neighbor. Well, just like he told us to do 2,000 years ago. I eventually found this podcast and it quickly has become one of the staple resources to help me deprogram my closed minded thinking that I grew up with so thanks to you, Tim, this team, and to all of you out there on your unique faith journey, hold on to Jesus, his love, and love for neighbor. Have a great day.
- [28:32]
Melinda Hale
Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time, it takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or any. Anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors together. I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit thenewevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.
- [29:48]
Tim Whitaker
I remember being that indoctrinated, but I don't know how I found it compelling. Like, now that I'm this. Now that I'm kind of above ground, I'm out of that basement, I'm like, I don't know why I ever stayed down there for as long as I did because it's just not that compelling to me. Like, that way of thinking. And also, like you said, it doesn't give the outcomes that we all want anyway. Like, it doesn't lead to human flourishing. Usually even look at, like, as early as Reagan and like, the. How he changed so many laws that really allowed for this huge wealth disparity where right now, what, the top 1% own as much wealth as the bottom 50. That is crazy. That's. I mean, when you really think about that level, the fact that Elon Musk, the world's greediest man, has, is worth $400 billion. 400 billion. We can't comprehend how. And you could spend like a million dollars a second for. For, I'm assuming hundreds, if not thousands of years and still have money left over. And somehow we're supposed to imagine that, like, we're being Greedy because we want him taxed fairly or we want a system that won't allow for billionaires, billionaires like that to exist. Because guess what? We could solve a lot of these problems if we wanted to. Like, that's the thing is, you know, they always tell you, well, we can't. We can't do affordable health care because we just can't afford it. But, but we can afford a 42% military budget hike. We can afford a billion dollars a day to bomb children in Iran. No, we can afford it. We absolutely can figure it out. We just choose not to.
- [31:12]
April Ajoy
Yeah.
- [31:12]
Tim Whitaker
This country chooses not to fix the gun violence problem. We choose not to give people universal healthcare. We choose not to feed kids in schools. It is not a financial issue. It is not. It is just not. And it is. You know, the more you look at it, the more you're just like, wow, I didn't realize, like, how, you know, you're told your whole life that America is the greatest country in the world and you. And look, I love America. I love where I live. I love New Jersey. I'm proud of, like, me living in New Jersey. And. Which is why I think we could do better. You know, it's like, but we are not the greatest country in the world. Like, we have major problems. Our life expectancy is a high. Anyway. I'm ranting, but, you know, it just doesn't make any sense. Like, when you think about it, it doesn't add up. It's not reality.
- [31:55]
April Ajoy
And I think what drives me crazy too is the condescending attitude that so many white evangelicals and just maga. Christian. Christian nationalists have towards those of us who left that world because of our faith. Like, they, they look down on us like we're the heretics and we're the ones that have been led astray by Satan. And like, Like, I don't know, sometimes I just feel like I'm going crazy, you know, and they're the way that they won't listen to. Like, they just immediately are dismissive of our experience, you know, in our beliefs. And, and it, like, I don't know, it's. I. Sometimes it just really, it gets me down. Like, I, Because I don't, I don't know how. I don't know. I just, I, I really believed that the, like, I believed what they taught me, that we should love our neighbors.
- [32:56]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [32:57]
April Ajoy
And it's. And, And I believed them when I said, you know, when they taught me that Christians are persecuted and if you stand up for, for your faith, you're going to be hated. And that ended up being true. But I'm being hated by the people that told me that, you know, like, that. It's like. It's just this really weird. It's just like a confusing state of being where, like, everything that you thought was true isn't true, and in many cases is, like, the opposite. Like, actually, like, the people that came, like, from the spaces we come from are the actual. Are the bad guys and the villains in a lot of the story.
- [33:37]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, I. I'm. I'm with you.
- [33:40]
April Ajoy
I think a lot of us feel that way, too. Like, I don't want to, like.
- [33:42]
Tim Whitaker
No, right.
- [33:43]
April Ajoy
Sugarcoat my.
- [33:45]
Tim Whitaker
Look, obviously, we were complicit in a larger system that did a lot of harm. We know that. And we also know that we held views that were harmful and probably harm people throughout the process. But at least for me, I'm sure for you, a lot of it was ignorance. Like, once I learned new information, I started adapting and changing again. It took time. It wasn't overnight. And we're all on a journey. I think we all get that. But the second I learned that American history was much worse than I thought and that white evangelicals are at the center of a lot of, you know, what we've seen when it comes to segregation, et cetera, I changed my tune. What I didn't do was say, no, that is just Marxist propaganda. And I believe in the one true faith. No, we adapted. And so I think. I don't know, I have a hard time giving myself any credit for anything. I'm sure you do, too, because we're just. You're very critical on yourself. You always are. But I think it's fair to say that while we work implicit in larger systems, we didn't really know any better at the time. And when we did get new information, we started changing immediately, which has put us on this path. Now, that led to, you know, me starting the new evangelicals, which is all about finding a better path forward in faith, which is a great resource for people to go check out and be a part of tne Connect is amazing. And there's so many just great things going on there. But that's what started tne. That's what gave birth to the Tim and April show. Like, we. We did change. Like, we. And we are changing still. Like, I'm still in the process of trying to, you know, frankly, decolonize and, like, just get rid of, like, the internal supremacy that I think I. That you just kind of inherit as a straight white man in America, especially in the church. Right. But I think, you know, again, we can do both. We can acknowledge the systems of harm that we were complicit in and help build and also recognize that we did and we are changing or repenting when we got new information.
- [35:28]
April Ajoy
Yeah, no, that's true. I mean, we are our own worst.
- [35:33]
Tim Whitaker
I watch my content.
- [35:33]
April Ajoy
I'm like, unless you're a MAGA Christian, then you don't criticize yourself at all.
- [35:39]
Tim Whitaker
I gotta say one thing I am kind of envious of, that I've actually learned from some of the MAGA pundits is that they are so bold and being wrong and they just keep going. Like, I think about Charlie Kirk doing college campus debates. That man got smoked a lot. I mean, he went on Jubilee and got smoked. He went to Cambridge and got smoked. He keeps going, though. I mean. Or he kept going. You know, like, props to. There's something about that mentality of like, they don't care if they get owned or if they get clipped and, you know, they just keep going. And that is something I have learned from MAGA is like, you know, yeah, there's a kind of tenacity there that I should learn from, where they just keep shame. Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm not saying I don't want to have shame, but like, you know, they will. They have no problem getting like, pushback on the Internet. They have no problem with people. With people clipping them and making them look terrible, you know, or them just getting destroyed. Like, it happens quite often. Even if they tried to hide that by like, you know, editing stuff. But I don't know. That's one thing I have learned is like, I'm not gonna stop what I'm doing because I feel down on myself or I feel like, you know, whatever else is that day, I'm gonna keep going. Because if they. If these people can. If Mark Driscoll can keep going, if Mark freaking Driscoll can keep going and rebirth himself into this brand, I'm not gonna freaking stop.
- [36:58]
April Ajoy
That is fair. I do think that they. That they can keep going, though, because they have such a black and white ideology that even if facts and logic smoke them, right, and make them look like idiots, they find a way to be like, well, the world might think that I got smoked, but I know the truth. Like, I don't know, like you. They find ways to still be the. The. The smartest. Like, think that they're the smartest person even though that they are not.
- [37:27]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, I don't know, friends. I just want you guys to all know that you're not alone. I think. And we say this a lot, but I know a lot of you think that this is. I. I know a lot of you are feeling how we feel, and I think it's important that you know that even the hosts of this show also feel off the camera. You know, like, I'm not acting when I talk about my frustrations or, you know, like, my despair. Like, I feel that when the camera turns off, I feel that when with my kids, I'm like, how do I raise these boys to be toxically empathetic and also know that at some point they're gonna get hurt by the world? And, like, that bothers me, all these different things that you think about, so. But you're not alone. Like, you're just. You just aren't. And there are people out there that are forging better paths forward in faith, and, I mean, tne is one of them. And, you know, this show and many others, but, like, yeah, it's tough, but you're not alone is all I can really say. Yeah.
- [38:14]
April Ajoy
Yeah, you're not alone. How's your mental health been?
- [38:17]
Tim Whitaker
Thank you for asking. It's been good. I think it's been good. Yeah, it's been good. Content creation can get my head. I mean, that's all I can say, you know, Like, I'm trying my best not. Not to live and die by algorithms or by performance of views, which is not a healthy metric. But there's something that connects your worth to sometimes how your content performs that I am working with my therapist to undo, because that is not healthy. But also, I am the only person who brings income into my family, so there's an extra weight of, like, well, if this doesn't work, then I have to figure something else out, which I would. I'll do that. But it just, you know, there's a little more extra pressure because of the financial burden.
- [38:56]
April Ajoy
Yeah.
- [38:57]
Tim Whitaker
But overall, it's good. You know, I. I love that I get to work from home. I love that I get to see my kids whenever I want. My kids, my boys are doing great. Me and Sarah are doing great. We're gonna hit 10 years in July. Married, which is crazy. So.
- [39:09]
April Ajoy
Wow, the big ten.
- [39:11]
Tim Whitaker
How long have you married you in Beecher?
- [39:13]
April Ajoy
In June. It'll be 12 years.
- [39:15]
Tim Whitaker
Okay. We're catching up.
- [39:17]
April Ajoy
Yeah, I don't think you can catch up. I don't think that's going to work.
- [39:21]
Tim Whitaker
How's your mental health? Are you hanging in There. It's tough.
- [39:23]
April Ajoy
I'm hanging in there. I definitely have like, I think in the last, since January really, since I, it started really with when we kidnapped the president of Venezuela.
- [39:39]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [39:39]
April Ajoy
That was fun for whatever reason. So that was like early January. I like, I went into like a panic. Like I basically had a panic attack in church actually. I was trying really hard not to cry, but I like could not stop visualizing just nuclear war.
- [39:55]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [39:56]
April Ajoy
You know, so I've, I, I started working and working on that and I've, I definitely got better. I got to a point where I, my mental health got better. But I do feel like I've been on the verge of a panic attack more often in the last few months than I have in my entire life.
- [40:18]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [40:18]
April Ajoy
And I think just because I, you know, we're constantly aware of all these terrible things and we're both empath, like just being an empathetic person and like, like if I, if I really, if I had the time and I like gave myself the space, I could just cry every day for just like all the, the horrors that are happening. So I've, I've had to learn to find ways to like just disconnect from the world. But then I feel guilty for doing that because, you know, I'm like, that's a privilege that I get to disconnect when so many people don't have that privilege. So I don't know, it's, it's just like a, and then you have to parent on top of that. And I want my kids to have a happy childhood. But like I'm like just, I just feel like I, I'm, I've been more scared of things that.
- [41:09]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [41:09]
April Ajoy
Has. I haven't really had to be scared of prior, so. Yeah. But I'm doing okay, I guess is the, the thing to say. But I, I do think my mental health has taken quite the toll. And I don't think it's like, oh, I have a disorder or you know, you know, like I, I, I, I think it's just the state of the world.
- [41:31]
Tim Whitaker
You know, it's really heavy. It's also heavy when you realize this is all man made. Like none of this has to be this way. We don't have to live in a society like this. These aren't like fixed laws of the universe. Right. Like we, someone, some people chose to build it this way. And that is a weird thing to realize, you know, like, yeah, governments are made up and I'm glad that we have them. They create order which we need because, you know, humanity is chaotic and can be. But, like, we. We could change things, but people in power don't want to change things because it benefits them. And I think I struggle with that too. You know, like, doesn't have to be this way, guys. But I don't know. Yeah, no, I hear you. I hear you. Well, on a slightly happier note, you want to do some weird Christian bleep make you feel better?
- [42:16]
April Ajoy
I forgot we had one of those.
- [42:18]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah, we got one of those. Because why not? All right, why not? Let's get into it.
- [42:21]
April Ajoy
Weird Christian.
- [42:26]
Tim Whitaker
Okay, that's not it.
- [42:28]
April Ajoy
Boop.
- [42:29]
Tim Whitaker
Let's see. This is the one. All right, so for people listening on podcast, the title of this video says, sex outside covenant equals demonic. Here we go. Let's listen to what this person has to say.
- [42:44]
Yoga Critic Speaker
There is a holy way to have sex. There's a holy way to move your body, and that is through covenant. Otherwise, it's fornication. It's a sin. It's opening a demonic door. So it's the same thing with yoga. You stretch. In the context of yoga, it's demonic. It's opening a door. You stretch your body just like, normal. Like, reach down, bend your toes. Like, stretch out your. Your quadrat. Like, it's. It's fine. You're not.
- [43:03]
Tim Whitaker
Wait, I'm sorry. I. Can we just pause for a second? Did she really say that if you stretch when you're doing yoga, that's demonic, but if you just stretch and touch your toes while not doing yoga, you're fine?
- [43:18]
April Ajoy
Yeah, I think. I think that is what she said.
- [43:20]
Tim Whitaker
Cool. Just making sure I didn't mishear that. All right, keep going.
- [43:23]
Yoga Critic Speaker
Yeah, like getting a demon that way. So I just want to be clear
- [43:25]
Yoga Critic Speaker 2
with that, but I think that's enough. Like, I think.
- [43:27]
April Ajoy
Yeah.
- [43:28]
Yoga Critic Speaker
That it's pagan worship.
- [43:29]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [43:29]
Yoga Critic Speaker 2
It proves the point. And I also.
- [43:31]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [43:31]
Yoga Critic Speaker 2
For me, what convicted me was reading about it and realizing, like, yeah, these poses are all worship.
- [43:36]
Yoga Critic Speaker
Yeah. Just do a Google search.
- [43:37]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [43:37]
Yoga Critic Speaker 2
Like, it's. It's worship to these fake gods. And I'm like, all right, like that. What else do I need to know? It doesn't matter what the perceived benefit it is. You're still doing worship to another God.
- [43:50]
Yoga Critic Speaker
There is.
- [43:51]
Tim Whitaker
I. I hate it here. That's all I can say.
- [43:57]
April Ajoy
Oh, my gosh.
- [43:59]
Tim Whitaker
I just would like to know if that was okay, if that was true, if yoga in the American sense anyway was worshiped to a false God and allowing a demon to enter into your life. Wouldn't we have like, tons of people who are just, like, demonically depraved, doing the craziest stuff. Because people do yoga all the time. Like, probably millions of people have done yoga at some point in their life. And as far as I know, not many of them would claim because of yoga, I'm now demonically possessed.
- [44:29]
April Ajoy
Well, I think they would probably argue you wouldn't know. If you had it, then who cares?
- [44:34]
Tim Whitaker
Like, okay, great. Like, if you're demonically possessed and don't know it and it has no effect on your life, who cares? Besides it. Besides it sounding scary. Why does it matter? Why?
- [44:45]
April Ajoy
Well, I would. They probably would say you couldn't be saved if you have a demon. And then, you know, the ultimate hellbound reason is. Yeah, hellbound. But that's just so wild to me. Like, how can you accidentally. Because there's plenty. Like, yoga includes a lot of pretty basic stretches.
- [45:03]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah. How do you, like, bend down and touch your toes?
- [45:06]
April Ajoy
How do you know if you're doing the demonic stuff? Stretch. Or just a normal stretch.
- [45:12]
Tim Whitaker
If you have a yoga mat, is. Does that automatically make it demonic? You know, if you do it in the class setting, Is it demonic if you do At a gym? Or. Wait, what if you're alone, there's no mat, and you do downward dog? Is that automatically demonic?
- [45:26]
April Ajoy
Right. What if you have no context for what yoga even is? You're just stretching your body. You accidentally do a yoga pose.
- [45:35]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah.
- [45:35]
April Ajoy
Like a bridge or something.
- [45:37]
Tim Whitaker
Like, you sit on the fallen bridge. Yeah.
- [45:39]
April Ajoy
And then suddenly, boom, demonic demon.
- [45:41]
Tim Whitaker
That's it. Toast. You're possessed.
- [45:43]
April Ajoy
Also, can I just say, like, they're like, oh, they're worshiping fake gods. If the gods are fake, what is it? Why does it matter?
- [45:51]
Tim Whitaker
Right. They're not real. Who cares? Right? They're fake. Like, it doesn't do anything because they're not real. Oh, God. This is the same people who would tell you that the Enneagram is demonic. Like, you can't use the enneagram. It's satanic. It's like, why do you guys care about this? Why? Why?
- [46:09]
April Ajoy
I don't remember if we've played that one before. I don't. Because you didn't have a memory of it. I have a memory of it just because Beecher and I did a spoof to it.
- [46:17]
Tim Whitaker
Okay.
- [46:18]
April Ajoy
Where we literally showed how you could get a demon with stretching.
- [46:21]
Tim Whitaker
I recall that one like that. That girl doesn't look familiar at all. But, yeah. Anyway. Well, there you have it, friends. So we're Christian Bleep to end this, this Debbie Downer of a show, honestly,
- [46:31]
April Ajoy
you know, for those of you, you know, those of us that are feeling kind of isolated and lonely, you know, we've lost touch with some family. Maybe do yoga.
- [46:39]
Tim Whitaker
Yes.
- [46:40]
April Ajoy
Get a demon. And now you have a new friend.
- [46:42]
Tim Whitaker
Hey.
- [46:46]
April Ajoy
Someone to do life with.
- [46:48]
Tim Whitaker
Yeah. Doing life together. Am I right? Never leave you nor forsake you.
- [46:55]
April Ajoy
Yeah, man.
- [46:58]
Tim Whitaker
Well, friends, again, thanks so much for being here. It means the world. If you did enjoy this video, please give it a like and subscribe to the channel. If you, if you're listening on podcasts, giving us a rating and a review really does help us out. So we would appreciate that for sure. And again, just thanks for listening. Thanks for being here. If you are looking for that better path forward, if you're looking for other ways of being Christian that are not rooted in supremacy, please check out the New Evangelicals. It's a nonprofit I started now run by Melinda Hale, produces this show. Tne Connect is their community space. It's beautiful. Right now, they're in the middle of an interfaith conversation for the whole month of April, bringing on different guests, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist people to kind of introduce you to different ways of being in the world and different religious traditions. So make sure to check it out. You can go to henewevangelicals on Instagram. And if you wanna support the work that we're doing, please consider making a donation thenewevangevangelicals.com it supports this show. It supports the work that we're all doing. So that would mean the world. Yeah. That's all I got. How about you, April?
- [47:56]
April Ajoy
I'm that. Yep.
- [47:57]
Tim Whitaker
You're peachy.
- [47:58]
April Ajoy
I'm peachy.
- [47:59]
Tim Whitaker
Great.
- [48:00]
April Ajoy
Well, that note, I'm on that note, I'm hang out with my kiddos because they're on spring break.
- [48:03]
Tim Whitaker
Have you ever done yoga before?
- [48:06]
April Ajoy
Yes, I tried it and I was terrible at it because I am not flexible.
- [48:09]
Tim Whitaker
But you know, what?
- [48:10]
April Ajoy
Body is not.
- [48:12]
Tim Whitaker
You still got that demon.
- [48:14]
April Ajoy
So, you know, I guess he would make himself known. If he's been around, he has been in the shadows because.
- [48:21]
Tim Whitaker
Do you think most people know that you're six foot until right now?
- [48:24]
April Ajoy
I don't know. Probably not.
- [48:25]
Tim Whitaker
Because when I first met you, I was like, dang, you're tall.
- [48:28]
April Ajoy
I thought you were tall too. I didn't realize you were so tall. I just assume when I'm on zoom with people that when I meet them in person, I'm going to be taller than them.
- [48:35]
Tim Whitaker
Yep. Except me, six foot four.
- [48:38]
April Ajoy
Except you all right.
- [48:40]
Tim Whitaker
Friends? Well, I'm Tim Whitaker.
- [48:42]
April Ajoy
I'm April. A joy.
- [48:43]
Tim Whitaker
See you later.
- [48:44]
April Ajoy
Bye.
- [48:49]
Tim Whitaker
Sa.