106. Defend or Deny: MAGA Christians Starting to Split on Trump - The Tim & April Show

Transcript

A (0:00)

You're listening to a new Evangelicals production, The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics, and culture. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Tim and April Show. I am April Ajoy, and today I am joined with the one, the only, Melinda Hale.

B (0:32)

Thank you. I appreciate that. That intro. Every time I hear that intro song, I'm like, this would be cool with, like, a drum line.

A (0:39)

Mm.

B (0:39)

I could see that.

A (0:41)

Yeah. It gets me hyped.

B (0:42)

Yeah.

A (0:43)

Makes me feel like I'm gonna be, like, way cooler than I am.

B (0:46)

It's a good. It's a good intro pick.

A (0:49)

Yeah. So for those who may have been living under a rock, because I feel like we talk about Melinda every week, but Melinda Hale is the executive director of the New Evangelicals, and the New Evangelicals is the organization that produces the Tim and April Show. So without T and E and Melinda, we would not exist. So she's.

B (1:10)

This is April's job review, actually. Yeah.

A (1:15)

My performance review right here. Yeah. You're kind of my mom review in a weird way. In a roundabout way.

B (1:20)

Same thing. We're also friends, so it's fine.

A (1:22)

We are also friends.

B (1:23)

Yes.

A (1:24)

Totally cool. Chill about it. But, yeah. Do you have any things from happening at T and E that you want to.

B (1:31)

Lots going on. We're wrapping up our intersectionality and faith. This month. We did courses on Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, and then next week we're doing Hinduism. And then next month, we're focusing on mental health for Christians, because you can have Jesus and a therapist, too. And so we're going to be doing courses on that. And then we're also going into Pride month. We're going to be doing a partnership with Glad, so we're going to be doing some workshops with them as well. So lots going on. Go to newevangelicals.com connect to get involved in all of the free resources that we have.

Summary

Podcast Summary

Main Theme Overview

Episode 106: "Defend or Deny: MAGA Christians Starting to Split on Trump" delves into the ongoing split within evangelical and conservative Christian communities over their support for Donald Trump. Hosted by April Ajoy (with Tim Whitaker absent) and guest Melinda Hale (Executive Director of The New Evangelicals), the episode examines shifting attitudes among MAGA Christians, the rationalizations for Trump’s behavior by prominent Christian nationalists, and what it means for faith, politics, and the intersection of justice and inclusivity. The discussion is rich with firsthand accounts, pointed video clips, and deep-dive analysis on how Christian nationalism shapes and sometimes distorts faith-led values in America.

Episode Structure & Key Discussion Points

1. Introductions & New Evangelicals Update (00:00–02:53)

Melinda Hale shares updates on upcoming TNE programs, including courses on world religions and mental health. There is mention of a partnership with GLAAD for Pride Month.
Both hosts discuss the value of shared values over shared beliefs in navigating interfaith relationships and resisting Christian nationalism.

2. Setting the Stage: “Baby Christian” Defense of Trump (05:19–15:35)

April introduces the “baby Christian” argument used by prominent pastors (Landon Schott, Lance Wallnau) to excuse or justify Trump’s behavior.
Clip #1, Landon Schott [09:38] (Pastor, Mercy Culture, TX): Defends Trump as the “most pro-faith president,” normalizes his transgressions by labeling him a “baby Christian,” and draws parallel to celebrities like Justin Bieber. This segment is marked by repetitive sniffing—jokingly noted by Melinda.
- "How long is he gonna be a baby Christian? They’ve been saying that since [2016]...By now, at a minimum, a toddler." – April [13:14]
The hosts unpack the hypocrisy: grace and forgiveness are extended to Trump without accountability—contrasted with rigid, harsh treatment for progressives or marginalized people.
- "Their level of grace comes with absolutely no accountability for the other person. There's no lesson learned... it's just, ‘I'm sorry, okay, he's forgiven.’" – Melinda [14:39]

3. The “Optics Over Action” Critique & Evangelical Hypocrisy (12:11–16:41)

Melinda rebukes Christian nationalism for focusing on optics (“respect for God,” “respect for pastors”) rather than Christlike action.
The juxtaposition is made between how evangelicals treat Trump’s faults versus their relentless critique of Democratic presidents (Obama, Biden).
- "Obama couldn’t wear a tan suit. The man couldn’t wear a tan suit! That was like, ‘He’s the Antichrist.’ But Trump gets all the forgiveness in the world." – Melinda [16:15]

4. Clip #2: Lance Wallnau and the “Seven Mountain Mandate” [17:39–22:31]

Wallnau echoes the “baby Christian” defense, further rationalizing Trump’s behavior as evidence of an “anointing” despite a lack of spiritual maturity.
Wallnau describes Trump's self-comparison to Jesus as a misunderstanding, blames Christian hypersensitivity, and claims Trump is “anointed with a kind of wisdom.”
- Both hosts lampoon the elaborate justifications: "Where are you pulling that from? Your butt?" – April [19:49]

5. “Baby Christian”: Recurring Evangelical Talking Point [19:49–25:35]

April highlights that this “baby Christian” rhetoric dates back to 2016, quoting James Dobson and others who have enabled Trump’s spiritual “learning curve” as cover for his behavior.
- Discussion on how evangelicals have weaponized selective grace, and that “God can use anybody except everybody on the left” [21:36].
Emphasis on the need to “look at the fruit” of someone’s life and work—citing what Christians were taught about identifying true faith by their actions, not just professions.

6. Changing Tides: Conservative “Regrets” and Accountability [27:08–34:52]

Tucker Carlson clip: Publicly apologizes for misleading viewers and supporting Trump. He acknowledges the collective responsibility of people like himself (“we’re implicated in this for sure...we’re the reason this is happening right now” [27:55]).
- "At some point, people have—we have to allow people to change and grow. That doesn’t mean we’re going to be kind and coddle them...but you need to work to fix it." – Melinda [31:17]
Melinda and April debate the sincerity of such apologies—should grace be extended if there’s a real change and reparative action?
- "If you are going to change, you need to do the work. Not just say, ‘I was wrong about Trump.’" – April [33:52]
Discussion of others (e.g., Megan Basham) distancing from Trump for political, not moral, reasons—often without meaningful self-reflection or change in underlying views.

7. Reactionary “Wrong Regret”: Women Shouldn’t Be Leaders? [35:05–39:12]

April reads tweets by Lauren Witzke, who blames her former Trump support on being a woman: “Now I realize why women should never be pastors or leaders.” [36:10]
Both hosts express disbelief and frustration at how some women internalize and publicly declare their own oppression.

8. Super Chats and Audience Responses [39:13–42:01]

Responding to viewers’ comments about the hypocrisy and theatricality of Trump-supporting Christian leaders.
Light-hearted banter about billboard slogans and projection (“allegedly paid by George Soros…”).

9. RFK Jr. and Black Maternal Health: Policy, Racism, and Public Health [42:01–57:30]

RFK Jr., head of HHS, is shown testifying before Congress, dodging Summer Lee’s (Rep., PA) pointed questions on the black maternal health crisis.
Melinda shares deeply personal experiences as a Black mother, exposing systemic medical racism and the urgency for race-conscious policy.
- "Black women are treated differently in the hospital...it doesn't matter what your class is, your economic level, your celebrity status...There is medical racism that runs rampant." – Melinda [48:45]
April provides statistical context: Black maternal mortality is 49.4 per 100,000 births, versus 14.9 for whites.
Both hosts critique the anti-DEI push, arguing that removing race as a category is itself discriminatory and dangerous. The “colorblind” approach leads to literal deaths.

10. The Embarrassment of Trumpian Math [59:02–60:01]

RFK Jr. displays a misunderstanding of basic math in discussing percentage reductions; both hosts ridicule this as representative of incompetence at high levels ("Now he has Trump math...what math is he doing?" – Melinda [59:19])

11. Final Super Chats and Classic Christian Weirdness [63:47–69:23]

April presents a “vintage” Christian puppet video for comic relief, prompting both hosts to reflect on the aggressive, mean-spirited evangelistic methods of the past—and their lingering impact.
- "Why was she so aggressive? Jesus wants to die for you, you dummy!" – April [66:01]
- "Is that how people are at your church? That's exactly why people walk away, because this is mean." – Melinda [67:02]

12. Closing Remarks and Show Plugs [69:23–End]

Both hosts plug their socials, highlight upcoming episodes, and promote the New Evangelicals network.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On selective grace:
"Their level of grace comes with absolutely no accountability for the other person...they sell this idea of absolute forgiveness as long as you say that you're sorry, but you don't actually have to do the work to fix anything."
– Melinda [14:39]
On political hypocrisy & “baby Christian” rhetoric:
"God can use anybody except everybody on the left."
– Melinda [21:36]

"How long is he gonna be a baby Christian? They’ve been saying that since [2016]...By now, at a minimum, a toddler."
– April [13:14]
On achieving change through accountability:
"At some point, people have—we have to allow people to change and grow. That doesn’t mean we’re going to be kind and coddle them...but you need to work to fix it."
– Melinda [31:17]
On personal impact of Black maternal health disparities:
"Black women are treated differently in the hospital...it doesn't matter what your class is, your economic level, your celebrity status...There is medical racism that runs rampant."
– Melinda [48:45]
On the absurdity of right-wing self-blame:
"Oh, it must be because I have a vagina. That's how I fell for Trump."
– April [37:05]
Comic relief:
"Jesus wants to die for you, you dummy!"
– April [66:01]

Timestamps for Key Segments

00:00–02:53 — Intro, TNE updates
05:19–15:35 — Trump as “baby Christian” — Landon Schott clip & analysis
17:39–22:31 — Lance Wallnau “Seven Mountains” / more “baby Christian” defense
27:08–34:52 — Tucker Carlson’s Trump regret/apology and response
35:05–39:12 — Lauren Witzke tweet and internalized misogyny
42:01–57:30 — RFK Jr. Congressional testimony and Black maternal health
59:02–60:01 — “Trump math” (RFK Jr. blunder)
63:47–69:23 — Weird Christian puppet segment
69:23–end — Plugs and goodbyes

Tone

Conversational, sharp, deeply empathetic, and frequently humorous—even while addressing serious issues. Strong undercurrent of justice, inclusivity, and a passion for reclaiming the core values of Christianity in public conversations.

This episode provides a nuanced, authentic, and sharply critical exploration of how faith, politics, race, and power are colliding within the American evangelical church—posing difficult but necessary questions about accountability, repentance, and what it really means to “bear good fruit.”