106. Defend or Deny: MAGA Christians Starting to Split on Trump

Summary

Podcast Summary

Main Theme Overview

Episode 106: "Defend or Deny: MAGA Christians Starting to Split on Trump" delves into the ongoing split within evangelical and conservative Christian communities over their support for Donald Trump. Hosted by April Ajoy (with Tim Whitaker absent) and guest Melinda Hale (Executive Director of The New Evangelicals), the episode examines shifting attitudes among MAGA Christians, the rationalizations for Trump’s behavior by prominent Christian nationalists, and what it means for faith, politics, and the intersection of justice and inclusivity. The discussion is rich with firsthand accounts, pointed video clips, and deep-dive analysis on how Christian nationalism shapes and sometimes distorts faith-led values in America.

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Episode Structure & Key Discussion Points

1. Introductions & New Evangelicals Update (00:00–02:53)

• Melinda Hale shares updates on upcoming TNE programs, including courses on world religions and mental health. There is mention of a partnership with GLAAD for Pride Month.
• Both hosts discuss the value of shared values over shared beliefs in navigating interfaith relationships and resisting Christian nationalism.

2. Setting the Stage: “Baby Christian” Defense of Trump (05:19–15:35)

• April introduces the “baby Christian” argument used by prominent pastors (Landon Schott, Lance Wallnau) to excuse or justify Trump’s behavior.

• Clip #1, Landon Schott [09:38] (Pastor, Mercy Culture, TX): Defends Trump as the “most pro-faith president,” normalizes his transgressions by labeling him a “baby Christian,” and draws parallel to celebrities like Justin Bieber. This segment is marked by repetitive sniffing—jokingly noted by Melinda.

  • "How long is he gonna be a baby Christian? They’ve been saying that since [2016]...By now, at a minimum, a toddler." – April [13:14]

• The hosts unpack the hypocrisy: grace and forgiveness are extended to Trump without accountability—contrasted with rigid, harsh treatment for progressives or marginalized people.

  • "Their level of grace comes with absolutely no accountability for the other person. There's no lesson learned... it's just, ‘I'm sorry, okay, he's forgiven.’" – Melinda [14:39]

3. The “Optics Over Action” Critique & Evangelical Hypocrisy (12:11–16:41)

• Melinda rebukes Christian nationalism for focusing on optics (“respect for God,” “respect for pastors”) rather than Christlike action.
• The juxtaposition is made between how evangelicals treat Trump’s faults versus their relentless critique of Democratic presidents (Obama, Biden).
  • "Obama couldn’t wear a tan suit. The man couldn’t wear a tan suit! That was like, ‘He’s the Antichrist.’ But Trump gets all the forgiveness in the world." – Melinda [16:15]

4. Clip #2: Lance Wallnau and the “Seven Mountain Mandate” [17:39–22:31]

• Wallnau echoes the “baby Christian” defense, further rationalizing Trump’s behavior as evidence of an “anointing” despite a lack of spiritual maturity.
• Wallnau describes Trump's self-comparison to Jesus as a misunderstanding, blames Christian hypersensitivity, and claims Trump is “anointed with a kind of wisdom.”
  • Both hosts lampoon the elaborate justifications: "Where are you pulling that from? Your butt?" – April [19:49]

5. “Baby Christian”: Recurring Evangelical Talking Point [19:49–25:35]

• April highlights that this “baby Christian” rhetoric dates back to 2016, quoting James Dobson and others who have enabled Trump’s spiritual “learning curve” as cover for his behavior.

  • Discussion on how evangelicals have weaponized selective grace, and that “God can use anybody except everybody on the left” [21:36].

• Emphasis on the need to “look at the fruit” of someone’s life and work—citing what Christians were taught about identifying true faith by their actions, not just professions.

6. Changing Tides: Conservative “Regrets” and Accountability [27:08–34:52]

• Tucker Carlson clip: Publicly apologizes for misleading viewers and supporting Trump. He acknowledges the collective responsibility of people like himself (“we’re implicated in this for sure...we’re the reason this is happening right now” [27:55]).

  • "At some point, people have—we have to allow people to change and grow. That doesn’t mean we’re going to be kind and coddle them...but you need to work to fix it." – Melinda [31:17]

• Melinda and April debate the sincerity of such apologies—should grace be extended if there’s a real change and reparative action?

  • "If you are going to change, you need to do the work. Not just say, ‘I was wrong about Trump.’" – April [33:52]

• Discussion of others (e.g., Megan Basham) distancing from Trump for political, not moral, reasons—often without meaningful self-reflection or change in underlying views.

7. Reactionary “Wrong Regret”: Women Shouldn’t Be Leaders? [35:05–39:12]

• April reads tweets by Lauren Witzke, who blames her former Trump support on being a woman: “Now I realize why women should never be pastors or leaders.” [36:10]
• Both hosts express disbelief and frustration at how some women internalize and publicly declare their own oppression.

8. Super Chats and Audience Responses [39:13–42:01]

• Responding to viewers’ comments about the hypocrisy and theatricality of Trump-supporting Christian leaders.
• Light-hearted banter about billboard slogans and projection (“allegedly paid by George Soros…”).

9. RFK Jr. and Black Maternal Health: Policy, Racism, and Public Health [42:01–57:30]

• RFK Jr., head of HHS, is shown testifying before Congress, dodging Summer Lee’s (Rep., PA) pointed questions on the black maternal health crisis.
• Melinda shares deeply personal experiences as a Black mother, exposing systemic medical racism and the urgency for race-conscious policy.
  • "Black women are treated differently in the hospital...it doesn't matter what your class is, your economic level, your celebrity status...There is medical racism that runs rampant." – Melinda [48:45]
• April provides statistical context: Black maternal mortality is 49.4 per 100,000 births, versus 14.9 for whites.
• Both hosts critique the anti-DEI push, arguing that removing race as a category is itself discriminatory and dangerous. The “colorblind” approach leads to literal deaths.

10. The Embarrassment of Trumpian Math [59:02–60:01]

• RFK Jr. displays a misunderstanding of basic math in discussing percentage reductions; both hosts ridicule this as representative of incompetence at high levels ("Now he has Trump math...what math is he doing?" – Melinda [59:19])

11. Final Super Chats and Classic Christian Weirdness [63:47–69:23]

• April presents a “vintage” Christian puppet video for comic relief, prompting both hosts to reflect on the aggressive, mean-spirited evangelistic methods of the past—and their lingering impact.
  • "Why was she so aggressive? Jesus wants to die for you, you dummy!" – April [66:01]
  • "Is that how people are at your church? That's exactly why people walk away, because this is mean." – Melinda [67:02]

12. Closing Remarks and Show Plugs [69:23–End]

• Both hosts plug their socials, highlight upcoming episodes, and promote the New Evangelicals network.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On selective grace:
  "Their level of grace comes with absolutely no accountability for the other person...they sell this idea of absolute forgiveness as long as you say that you're sorry, but you don't actually have to do the work to fix anything."
  – Melinda [14:39]

• On political hypocrisy & “baby Christian” rhetoric:
  "God can use anybody except everybody on the left."
  – Melinda [21:36]

  "How long is he gonna be a baby Christian? They’ve been saying that since [2016]...By now, at a minimum, a toddler."
  – April [13:14]

• On achieving change through accountability:
  "At some point, people have—we have to allow people to change and grow. That doesn’t mean we’re going to be kind and coddle them...but you need to work to fix it."
  – Melinda [31:17]

• On personal impact of Black maternal health disparities:
  "Black women are treated differently in the hospital...it doesn't matter what your class is, your economic level, your celebrity status...There is medical racism that runs rampant."
  – Melinda [48:45]

• On the absurdity of right-wing self-blame:
  "Oh, it must be because I have a vagina. That's how I fell for Trump."
  – April [37:05]

• Comic relief:
  "Jesus wants to die for you, you dummy!"
  – April [66:01]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–02:53 — Intro, TNE updates
• 05:19–15:35 — Trump as “baby Christian” — Landon Schott clip & analysis
• 17:39–22:31 — Lance Wallnau “Seven Mountains” / more “baby Christian” defense
• 27:08–34:52 — Tucker Carlson’s Trump regret/apology and response
• 35:05–39:12 — Lauren Witzke tweet and internalized misogyny
• 42:01–57:30 — RFK Jr. Congressional testimony and Black maternal health
• 59:02–60:01 — “Trump math” (RFK Jr. blunder)
• 63:47–69:23 — Weird Christian puppet segment
• 69:23–end — Plugs and goodbyes

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Tone

• Conversational, sharp, deeply empathetic, and frequently humorous—even while addressing serious issues. Strong undercurrent of justice, inclusivity, and a passion for reclaiming the core values of Christianity in public conversations.

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This episode provides a nuanced, authentic, and sharply critical exploration of how faith, politics, race, and power are colliding within the American evangelical church—posing difficult but necessary questions about accountability, repentance, and what it really means to “bear good fruit.”

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to a new Evangelicals production, The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics, and culture. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Tim and April Show. I am April Ajoy, and today I am joined with the one, the only, Melinda Hale.

[B]

Thank you. I appreciate that. That intro. Every time I hear that intro song, I'm like, this would be cool with, like, a drum line.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

I could see that.

[A]

Yeah. It gets me hyped.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Makes me feel like I'm gonna be, like, way cooler than I am.

[B]

It's a good. It's a good intro pick.

[A]

Yeah. So for those who may have been living under a rock, because I feel like we talk about Melinda every week, but Melinda Hale is the executive director of the New Evangelicals, and the New Evangelicals is the organization that produces the Tim and April Show. So without T and E and Melinda, we would not exist. So she's.

[B]

This is April's job review, actually. Yeah.

[A]

My performance review right here. Yeah. You're kind of my mom review in a weird way. In a roundabout way.

[B]

Same thing. We're also friends, so it's fine.

[A]

We are also friends.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Totally cool. Chill about it. But, yeah. Do you have any things from happening at T and E that you want to.

[B]

Lots going on. We're wrapping up our intersectionality and faith. This month. We did courses on Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, and then next week we're doing Hinduism. And then next month, we're focusing on mental health for Christians, because you can have Jesus and a therapist, too. And so we're going to be doing courses on that. And then we're also going into Pride month. We're going to be doing a partnership with Glad, so we're going to be doing some workshops with them as well. So lots going on. Go to newevangelicals.com connect to get involved in all of the free resources that we have.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Teenage. Yeah. Busy things. So many. Gosh. I actually. I do love that y' all are doing actual courses on other religions, because I was taught about other religions, but from a very fundy evangelical lens, that was like, here's why they're going to hell.

[B]

Right? And we're the only path.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. There's so much symmetry with different religions and things that they believe. And I think intersectionality is so important because even though we have different beliefs, we kind of all have the same goal, you know, which is to take on Christian nationalism and just make the world a better place. So it's been nice to learn about how Other faiths approach their. Their beliefs. It's great.

[A]

Yeah, I'm a big proponent of shared values over shared beliefs these days.

[B]

Amen. Amen.

[A]

So, full disclosure, before we get into this episode, I just want to let everybody know that I am running this program. Tim normally runs the program, which is like pulling in all the videos. And I will say I appreciate Tim a lot more right now than I typically do. Realize all the. The work that goes into it behind the scenes. So I'm just asking for a little bit of grace in. If I mess up, the show goes on. But yeah, so I reminder too. We will have a. I will pull in attempt to pull in all the super chats. They will get read live on the air as per usual if you want to do that. Also like the show if you're watching right now, if you can just like the show that helps push it out there and the algorithm and all the things. I think that's all the. The rundown that I need to get.

[B]

Yeah. And when you like and subscribe to the show, you can see all of the other channels that we have under the TNE Media network. So just support the organization as a whole.

[A]

Like subscribe, do all things. Also Melinda Hale, she's. She's on the line too, and I love following you, so you should follow Melinda Hale as well. She's on the Internet.

[B]

That, that's. That'd actually be an interesting podcast. She's online and then talk about, talk to all these like incredible women. We should talk about that.

[A]

Ooh, I like put a pin in that.

[B]

Always ideating, right? Yeah, Ideating something.

[A]

Ye. Someone asked, where is Tim? He is at a conference this week. A really cool, cool person conference that I don't know the name of, but he explained it and it sounded cool. So that's where he is. He is out of town, so he's on break and I'm taking over. And look, we got a super chat and I'm just going to test this because I don't know if I'm doing it right. I did it. From Penelope. Thank you for calling out toxic Christians from an ex Christian current pagan. It's refreshing seeing Jesus's teachings and actions. Thank you so much for the super chat. Okay, so I don't know if you've seen this, Melinda, but twice this week in the last week, I saw two different videos show up on my feed organically of Christian MAGA evangelicals defending Trump's most recent antics, which include blasphemy, when he posted himself as Jesus slash a doctor which honestly is probably like the. The smallest of his immorality. I don't know.

[B]

He's done some pretty egregious things.

[A]

I don't even know if I would put that at the top of his list. But I feel like there are two paths that people are taking. There are some people that are really mad that are. With withdrawing support, and we'll get to those in. In a second. But I just thought it was really funny because there was a common theme in two of these videos, and that was that they called Donald Trump a baby Christian. So I want. I just. I want to get your. So for those who don't know, Melinda and I grew up very differently. I was raised very conservative, evangelical, Christian, nationalist. So I come from the world that is calling Trump a baby Christian.

[B]

Who.

[A]

Whereas you were always pretty progressive, right?

[B]

I was always progressive. Yeah. I grew up in a very liberal, progressive, loving, affirming faith that it wasn't something that I had to survive. That's what I always say. It's something that formed me and shaped me, and it. What has led me in all of the work that I do. So coming into this space, it was like, what? Y' all grew up how. Cause they just. It's so foreign to me because I. Yeah, I just. I never had that experience. Experience. And I feel very, very grateful for it. And it's. It's been very disheartening to hear the type of Jesus and the version of God that so many people grew up with, because it is the complete opposite of what I. I grew up Jesus of the Bible. That's. That's who I grew up with. I grew up in an AME church, you know, black liberation theology. Jesus. God is the God of the oppressed. Jesus is here for the least of these. So none of those ideas were ever, you know, brand new to me. They weren't revolutionary. It's just what I always knew. So, yeah, very different. Very different. So when you were, like, naming names of people, I'm like, who did?

[A]

Because I know I literally. Here, I'll go ahead and. Let's see. Here's my. Ah, look at that. Okay, so this first video is.

[B]

I'm proud of you, April.

[A]

Thank you. I know. I'm proud of myself. So this first video is from Landon shot. And literally when we were prepping the show, I was like. I said, Landon shot. And Lance. Well now. And. Well now. And you were like, I don't know who these people are. Like, oh, my gosh, I envy that. I think that you don't know Tim

[B]

also, I'm an actor and a filmmaker. Tim also didn't know who Viola Davis was. And I almost ended our friendship. So.

[A]

Okay, I know who Viola Davis is. To be fair, Tim didn't know who Timothee Chalamet was because I called him that.

[B]

Maybe that's the Tim.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's a Tim thing because I don't. I feel like Viola Davis is a very. Should be a household name.

[B]

I agree. And anyway, back to Landon.

[A]

So this is Landon shot. For those who don't know, we've talked about him before. He is the pastor of Mercy Culture in Texas. He went viral a couple years ago because he made a video bragging about how his Christian school that is associated with his church, I believe was the least vaccinated school in all of Texas. And this was a mitt, like in the middle of the measles outbreak that was happening in Texas.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So he's very Christian nationalist. Also, he's the same pastor who a couple months ago, we actually played it on this show on one of our episodes, Landon went to visit Robert Morris, who's the pastor of Gateway, who is in prison for essaying a 12 year old.

[B]

Yeah. And he was also Trump's former spiritual advisor, wasn't he?

[A]

Yes, he was one of Trump's spiritual advisors in his first term. See, you know, you know Robert Morris. So Landon Schott went to visit him in prison and made this whole post about God's grace. And we need to forgive. And like, no one is above God's forgiveness, which is like, true.

[B]

But also they be forgiving the wrong people, let me just say, because they don't extend grace to anyone that they don't agree with politically, which is crazy to me. Which is crazy to me.

[A]

But we'll extend that grace to like, you and I. They would say you and I are hellbound because we affirm queer people.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But. But someone who's a pedo deserves all that grace if they are Republican, basically. So let's watch this video. This is, this is what they are now, how they're defending Trump right now. And I just thought it was gross.

[C]

So what I really appreciate about President Trump is that he has been what, in my opinion, the most pro faith president.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

In my lifetime. Correct. And here's what I. What appreciate is every time I'm around him, he's like, we need more faith in America. And I know so many people are caught up in like, well, he says this and he does this. I'm like, okay, well, let's say he is a baby Christian for a second.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

How come you have so much grace with. With other baby Christians and you don't have it with him? Why are you fine with Justin Biebers and all these other celebrities and all these other people getting saved and they're like, hey, they're just learning. And everybody else has a learning curve, but he doesn't have a learning curve. I mean, it's amazing how fast people on social media that probably live in their mom's basement are so quick to say, like, he's not acting a Christian. When, like, you're not acting like a Christian. Like, the. The sin in your life, the plank in your eye. I mean, come on, guy, now. And so.

[B]

But what.

[C]

What I love about President Trump is that he. He respects God, he respects pastors. He'll drop curse words and then apologize to Franklin Graham for the curse word that he. He knows. He's in a room full of pastors, like, sorry, guys, but you need to stay on your toes.

[B]

You know, it's like, he's a unique

[C]

individual, but he has a respect for God.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And he has a respect for pastors, and I believe that he's Four churches.

[B]

What?

[D]

I.

[B]

Okay, sorry. Can I dive in really quickly, please?

[A]

Take it away.

[B]

First of all, I'm going to respond to what he said. But the sniffing, can we address that? Did you notice that?

[A]

No, hold on.

[B]

Everything saved.

[C]

And they're like, hey, they're just learning. And everybody. Sorry, but he doesn't have a learning curve. I mean, it's amazing.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

It's every. It's every sentence. And I'm like, that's a symptom of something, of you doing something. But we'll talk about that.

[A]

Allegedly.

[B]

Allegedly. Anyway, okay, so, yeah, it's. I mean, that is. I'm just gonna be honest. That is kind of like a drug thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, sniffing that much. That's crazy. Oh, my God. So much to respond to. First and foremost, the problem that I have with Christian nationalism in general, it's all about optics, Right. There's nothing about action that they're actually doing, because that's what Jesus was about. He was about action. He was showing up for people. He was healing people. He was loving people. All of this is. Is just this picture of something, Right. Nobody's actually doing anything that Jesus said. That's the biggest issue that I've always had, Christian nationalism. So just listening to him talk about this stuff, like, oh, he does this, he does this. But. And to Say that he respects God is actually laughable. Seriously, how.

[A]

How is the respect for God in the room with us, Landon?

[B]

It's like, I'm just. I'm so confused because nothing that this man has done shows that he. Well, first of all, I'm sure he's never even opened a Bible. I mean, he held it upside down. Right. But what?

[A]

He sold Bibles, too?

[B]

He sold Bibles and signed them. That alone.

[A]

So he opened the Bible in order to sign it?

[B]

Like, well, yeah, the front page. But, like, where is the respect for God? Where's the respect for Jesus' words? Where is the respect for that teaching? Because he hasn't shown up in that way whatsoever. And I'm just so confused what these people are convincing themselves of and, like, why they can't just admit, like. And I know we're going to talk about it later, but, like, even Tucker Carlson's like, I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, it's okay. It's okay to just be like, yeah, this isn't right. This isn't aligned with my values. This isn't aligned with the faith that I have chosen to follow. I just. I'm so. And the baby Christian thing is so funny. Like, how long is he gonna be a baby Christian?

[A]

Right, Right. They've been saying that since adolescent one. By now, at a minimum, a toddler. Right.

[B]

Like, at a minimum. Which, based on his behavior, he kind of is a toddler. But, yeah. I don't know. I wanna hear your thoughts on this, especially since you grew up in this atmosphere.

[A]

Well, it is wild to me. I don't know why they feel the need to defend Trump.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No matter what. Like, it. You could even still say, I would still vote for Trump because I like his policies, but I'm not okay with xyz. Like, you can also rescind your support at any time. Like, you. You can even still be Republican. Like, I'm still Republican, but I just can't support Donald Trump anymore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, I don't understand the need to even defend it.

[B]

You don't mean. You clarify that. You don't mean.

[A]

I don't. I'm not Republican anymore, everybody.

[B]

Because there's been a little. A little kerfuffle on threads. Oh, ye.

[A]

I made a post on this for people that are like, what? I made a post on threads where I was like, in 2016, I was a never Trumper when I was Republican. And that's like, one of my biggest flexes, that I didn't vote for Trump when I was Republican in 2016, and a lot of people have taken that for. For. As me saying I'm still Republican, which

[B]

is very funny because if they saw anything that you said.

[A]

No, two seconds. A. Two second.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Anyway, not Republican.

[B]

You're not Republican. You're not Republican. But also, this is the thing. When they talk grace, I.

[A]

It.

[B]

It's very frustrating for me because their level of grace comes with absolutely no accountability for the other person. There's no lesson learned. There's nothing to move forward with. It's just like, oh, I'm sorry, okay, he's forgiven. But like, why is it that quick for you? I just. I don't understand. It's like they. They sell this idea of absolute forgiveness as long as you say that you're sorry, but you don't actually have to do the work to fix anything. And I don't understand how that's positive version of your faith, but also, like, where's the. There's no lesson to be learned. There's no lesson to be learned. And it's incredibly frustrating to just see that constantly be pushed by these people. And people fall for it too. There's. There's still a good amount of the demographic that is like, oh, yeah, he didn't mean it. They're finding justifications, but it's because they have to. They probably have to do some self reflection if they actually realized what he was doing and how bad it is.

[A]

Right. Yeah. I don't. I'll never understand, like, I don't. The justification. Because you're right. It's hypocritical because they will say they always pull out the plank in your own eye when it's someone on their side because they just value power and specific beliefs. They don't actually care how you live your life. They just care whether or not you align with what they deem is the correct political position. Whereas, like, think of how many people attacked President Obama or even Biden for so much less. They would never use the. Well, pull the plank out of your own eye. First verse.

[B]

Obama could wear a tan suit. The man couldn't wear a tan suit. I know, that was like, he's the Antichrist, but. But Trump gets all the forgiveness in the world.

[A]

I know, it's wild.

[B]

I'd rather you just say that you have allegiance to your political ideology than slapping Jesus's name on this. Fine. You only agree with people that agree with your politics. Fine. That is completely fine. But leave Jesus out of it. He has nothing to do with this.

[A]

Totally agree. All right, all right, so this guy now is Lance Wall now, and if you don't know who that is, he, he's, I believe, an openly Christian nationalist. He was one of the people that made the Seven Mountain Dan, the Seven Mountain Mandate, pretty well known. So he believes that Christians need to dominate all the seven mountains of influence in the world, which is government, family, entertainment, education. There's seven of them. I don't remember them all off the top of my head, but it's like basically, it basically covers everything. And he believes that Christians have a God ordained mission to have dominion over every aspect of society in the world. Okay, so that's who this guy is. Yeah, it was just really interesting because I saw these two videos show up back to back and they both are using the phrase baby Christian. And I, I want to talk more about that in a second, but let's just watch what Lance had to say.

[E]

The guy can't win for losing is what we say up in New York.

[B]

Right?

[E]

So they got a complaint because he didn't answer a question Air Force One about are you certain of your salvation? Well, I hope I've done enough good works I to get there. And immediately the Twitter sphere starts dumping on Paula White. What's she doing? Doesn't he understand how to get to heaven? Blah, blah, blah. So then he goes and says, okay, okay, let me go to the other extreme. I'm a lot like Jesus. Look at me here. It's like, no, you don't do that either. He remember this, the man is saved, but he's anointed with a kind of almost like a gift of wisdom for being able to navigate America through the crisis it's in. But he's a baby Christian and he's like at times he 2am in the morning, I always look, when does he closed it? 2:00am he's cranky, he's irritated, he's on the phone. And then he's having a fight with Pope Leo, who he knows is meeting with Axelrod and meeting with Democrats and then using his Vatican to critique the immigration issue in America. And he never said anything about the nuclear threat of Iran. But the Pope has a comment about any kind of violence that's there. And Trump basically said, that's it. I'm actually doing more for Jesus in the church than you are, knucklehead. In my opinion, he pictured himself as doing more than the other guy who's supposed to be in charge of the Catholic Church. But it backfired because this isn't his line of country he doesn't quite know how to meme because of the hypersensitivities of Christians in particular, which is ironic.

[B]

These people make me itch. I swear. I just. I don't. I'm just listening to the hypocrisy and, like, how they ridicule and condemn people for so much less. I just. I don't even have the language to, like, truly verbalize how I'm feeling because it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[A]

No, it's. And imagine him, like, the way that they excuse every little thing that Donald Trump does, and they put themselves into his mind of, like, oh, well, he was just meaning that he's more like Jesus than the Pope. Where are you pulling that from? Your butt?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I don't even know. It's so stupid. And also, I just want to point out. So I actually have here. This is an article from 2016. This is a Fox News opinion article from 2016. The headline says, Donald Trump the baby Christian, where they quoted James Dobson from Focus on the Family, who called Donald Trump a baby Christian back then. And I remember because, as I mentioned earlier, I was a Never Trumper in 2016, even though I was still Republican at the time. I was saying, hey, y', all on my personal Facebook. I didn't have a platform yet. I was just like, hey, friends, my fellow Christian evangelicals, are we really voting for Donald Trump? Because I saw the interview in 2015 when they asked him if he'd ever asked God for forgiveness, and he said no, because he's never had to. And at that point.

[B]

Because he's a narcissist.

[A]

Right. But, like, at that point, we knew he had had affairs on all of his wives.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Like, and he had a reputation for being a billionaire playboy.

[B]

Like, yeah.

[A]

And he didn't think he had anything to ask forgiveness for. So. But a lot of the defense that I heard back then in 2016 was like, oh, well, he is a Christian. He's just a baby Christian. You know, we've gotta. We've gotta give him grace and forgive him. But if I mentioned, okay, well, couldn't you. Oh, and then I heard too, like, and God can use anybody. And I remember, even though I couldn't vote for Hillary at the time because I hadn't deconstructed that Christians couldn't vote for Democrats, you know, I still believed that then, but I remember saying, like, okay, well, could God not use Hillary, too? I said that even though I was not a Hillary fan. And, man, they did not like that. They were like, no, he couldn't, actually, which is crazy.

[B]

It's like, how do you get to say who God can use? Like, it's, that's, that's wild to me. Yeah, he could. God couldn't use Obama. God couldn't use any Democrat, apparently. God only can use Republicans. And again, say whatever political ideology that you want. I don't care. Believe Jesus and got out of it. He has nothing to do with this. It's insane. It's like, yeah, everybody. God can use anybody except everybody on the left. That's just, that's what, that's what their theology and ideology says.

[A]

Well, and you have people that will outright say, I'm a Christian. Like us, we're Christians. Even Hillary was a Christian. Obama was a Christian. Biden goes to mass every single Sunday. People that actually live out their faith, they can tell you their favorite Bible verse, which Donald Trump could not. And they will bend over backwards to convince you that not only are they not Christians, but they're the Antichrist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where Donald Trump posts a picture of himself as Jesus and they're like, oh, he's just a baby Christian. And like, look at here, look at this article, too. The way that they're like, well, I'm just going to read it. Dobson was claiming that Donald Trump had recently come to accept a relationship with Christ and is now a baby Christian. Dobson was vague about the details of Trump's supposed religious conversion, telling Anthony that while he knows the person responsible for leading Trump to Jesus, he. He would not name the person and couldn't specify the time or place. I don't know when it was said, Dobson, but it has not been long. Like, they will take. I, I knew a friend that knew a friend that led Trump in the prayer. He did say the prayer, and they're like, good enough for me. That man is holy.

[B]

It's. It's so funny. I remember when I was in college, I just talked about this on Sunday. I remember when I was in college and I could vote for the first time, and it was the election with George Bush and John Kerry, and I didn't vote for George Bush because I was never a Republican. And I got told, like, he's a Christian. That's all that matters. And like, now looking back, I'm like, compared to Trump, he really was a Christian. George Bush look pretty good right now. But again, it goes back to the optics of it, right? Like, it's all about if he's. If they say it, if they make these big Proclamations, but they're not doing anything to prove that what they actually believes, what they actually believe lines up with what Jesus taught. And that is what bothers me so much. Stop. Say. And again, a lot of Democrats are Christians. We just don't need to make this. We don't need to make a billboard about it, which is what they do. Literally, there's billboards about Jesus and Trump, especially in the South. I was just in the south, and I was like, that was probably, like, a $10,000 billboard for this and that.

[A]

Have you seen the one that's. I think. Is it outside Chattanooga, like, heading into Atlanta? It says, one day, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess. Even the Democrats.

[B]

No, but that's hilarious. I just wanted. I'm surprised I didn't see that. That's funny. That's actually funny. Yeah. It's all about the optics and these big proclamations and, like, needing to say, I'm a Christian, and be like, I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. And again, we learned actions speak louder than words when we were how old? How old did we learn that? And none of these people seem to have remembered that. None of these people remember, what would Jesus do? Huge movement. But you're not doing it. You're not doing what Jesus would do because he wouldn't have done any of this.

[A]

Yeah, well, and I remember, too, being taught, like, you can't just listen to someone if they say they're a Christian. You need to look at the fruit of their work, of their labor. Are they producing good fruit? Fruit? Are they actually loving their neighbor? Are they making the world a better place? Are they treating people with kindness and respect? Are they standing up for the marginalized? Like, that's how you can tell whether or not someone's actually following, like, living out their faith.

[B]

Yeah. And it's like durian. Do you know what would Jesus do?

[A]

We wore the bracelets to, like, remind us.

[B]

And here we are.

[A]

And here we are.

[B]

Foreign. Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day, we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time, it takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So Visit the new evangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show Notes. Thank you for standing with us.

[A]

Although a lot of MAGA people are doubling down, there are still some that have completely turned on Trump. And Tucker Carlson, of all people, is one of them. And so he had. He kind of went viral this past week because he has this clip where he practically apologizes for it, and it would just practically.

[B]

Like. He does.

[A]

Yeah, he does. So let's watch this. And then I think this could bring a good conversation of, like, what do we do with people like this? You know?

[B]

Yes, I have many thoughts. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. All right.

[B]

So here is Tucker looking back being.

[F]

Because, I mean, you and I and everyone else who supported him. You wrote speeches for him, I campaigned for him. I mean, we're implicated in this for sure.

[B]

Yes.

[F]

It's not enough to say, well, I changed my mind, or like, oh, this is bad, I'm out. It's like, in very small ways, but in real ways, you and me and millions of people like us are the reason this is happening right now.

[B]

Yes.

[F]

So I do think it's like a moment to wrestle with our own consciences. You know, we'll be tormented by it for a long time. I will be. And. And I want to say I'm sorry for misleading people in. It was not intentional. That's all I'll say.

[B]

But anyway,

[A]

so there you have it.

[B]

I have a lot of thoughts and I've talked about this. I'm a huge person that believes in grace. I really do. But I also believe that that doesn't mean that you have to one, allow someone access back into your life in the same way or just forget everything that they've done. I think this is actually the point where people need to prove that what they are saying is what they actually believe. This is when your action comes in, if you feel this remorse. And I actually do believe that this was very sincere. Like, I felt the sincerity in what he was saying. I don't believe it's performative. And this is just my read, but okay, what are you going to do now? How are you going to fix it? How are you going to change it? Because there is a lot of irreparable damage that has happened because of the platform that you had, Tucker, because of the things that you said, and because of how you galvanized people to vote for this horrible man that is ruining the country. And honestly, it's a debate could be made that he's ruining the world. Right? So I am. I think this is a very base starting point, but I don't think writing people off is the. Is the, the next step for people, because real talk, all we've been doing this whole time is yelling at them about this stuff. And then when someone does realize what they did wrong and they. The brainwashing goes away or whatever the case, what do you expect them to do? Like, the whole point of you yelling at them, telling them what they did wrong, showing how it's affecting people, was to change their perspective and to change their mind. And then you're just not going to let them try to fix something. Some things, like I said, are irreparable. It's going to take a really long time to fix. But there are things leading up to the midterms. For example, who are you going to put your support behind? Who you're going to say, hey, I think this person can actually put forth legislation and initiatives to make things better. This is who I'm going to support moving forward, because I want to fix what has happened. So I just. I can't get on board with the thought of, well, you did all this damage and we were telling you, and now all of a sudden you realize it. At some point, people have. We have to allow people to change and grow. That doesn't mean that we're just going to be kind and coddle them. You can still be firm and be like, great, but now we got some work to do, so you need to get over there and do it. And you have to be the one leading it, because we were leading it before and you didn't listen to us. That's my perspective. And I know some people may not agree with that, but I just don't think writing people off because they screwed up really, really badly. Don't get me wrong, he screwed up really badly, and he was someone who had a huge platform. But if he wants to start to make things right, we can't say, no, it's too late. Like, no, we have to make things right. But you also need to be held accountable while you're doing it.

[A]

Yeah, no, I, I definitely am with you on the grace thing. I have, I have a harder time with Tucker specifically because I don't trust his motives. Like, there's a piece of me that thinks he could be switching just because Trump has never had lower approval ratings. Like, and history is not going to look well on people that supported Trump and never stopped supporting Trump.

[B]

And it shouldn't. Right.

[A]

And I think Tucker knows that. So it could be a self preservation thing. But I, I agree with you that I think we should give them the chance to make thing right. I will say what I like about Tucker's position here, whether he's sincere or not, is that he's going to give permission to other people to apologize and change and give them permission to admit that they were wrong, which is something that I haven't seen from other people that are starting to change their mind. Like, I've seen some people that are like, don't like that Trump started this war with Iran, but are still fine with so many other terrible things that Trump has said and done. You know? Do you know what I mean? Like, they're, they're withdrawing. So, like, I think it depends on your motives for withdrawing support for Trump. Like where he said we need to do like inner work and self reflection or. I don't remember exactly what he said, but I think if you are going to change, you need to do the work to figure out why did you support Trump in the first place. Was it your own internal bias? Was it your own internal racism or bigotry and like, start to do that sort of work that I can have all the grace for. If you're actually going to not, you know, not right. Actually do the work, not just say, I was wrong about Trump, okay, what about Trump's policies? Did I find it so attractive that I was willing to overlook, you know, so many things and, you know, what does that say about me? So I appreciate that. I also appreciate that he apologizes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, so many people don't say, I'm sorry, they just say like, I don't agree with what Trump is doing now. But they don't go back. And then I've seen too, like Megan Basham, she writes for, it's the Daily, I think the Daily Wire. She, she's very Christian nationalist, but would say she's not. She called out Trump for his blasphemy, blasphemy Jesus post, but then would double down and say, but she would still vote for Trump at the end of the Day.

[B]

Yeah, right. Because it's that it's. Yeah.

[A]

Because they still say, well, the Democrats are just so much worse. Like, you need to be able to unlearn, like unlearn why you were wrong about Trump. Figure out what else could you possibly be wrong about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then rebuild.

[B]

Yeah. And take some time away. Also, I think he needs to not have a platform for a while and do that inner work. I mean, again, as you said, him saying this on his show, it is going to open up the door for other people to consider and I think that that's great. But it's. I'm an action based person. Go do the work and prove that you're standing 10 toes down on what you're saying right now. It's again, it's a very difficult situation because. Yeah, there's so, there's still so many things that I don't like about Tucker Carlson. I'm not like, oh, I'm on board. No, he's trash. Like, I'm just like, he really is. I know he has a lot of, he's probably still has racist views. He has anti Semitic views. Like, there are a lot of things about him that I do not like. But I'm going to take this little bit of context and say like, hey, I'm, like you said, I'm grateful that he at least apologized because he's realizing he played a huge part in everything that we're dealing right with right now. So what are you going to do to try to fix it and move forward? And I just think that that's important.

[A]

Right. Yeah. Because I think we also need to look at the reasons behind like, for instance, Tucker was very early in not supporting Israel, but he was not supporting Israel and was pro Palestine for anti Semitic reasons.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, for like the wrong reason. So you need to, like, we need to figure out. Okay. Why though?

[B]

There's so much nuance and context. Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. This is a good segue. Speaking of the wrong reasons, I. Here's another person named Lauren Witzke. I'm not gonna pull it up yet for the element of surprise, so I can explain who she is. She is a right wing talking head. I think she hosts some sort of show online. She has a decent following on Twitter and she ran for the Senate in 2020. She won her Republican primary in Delaware, but then she lost in the general. So that's who she is. She's. She also was endorsed by Nick Fuentes and accepted that endorsement for context. But I think this is an example of someone regretting their vote for Trump for the wrong reasons. I'm just going to read her tweet. In 2016, I truly believed Trump was anointed and appointed by God for such a time as this. Now I realize why women should never be pastors or leaders with any kind of spiritual authority in the church.

[B]

Wait a minute.

[A]

That took a turn.

[B]

I wasn't ready.

[G]

I know.

[A]

I knew you wouldn't be. Oh.

[G]

What?

[A]

I know. I don't even know how you come to this conclusion. Like. Like, the majority of women voted against Trump. Lauren, I'll give you a moment.

[B]

I might need him more than. I don't even know how to respond to that. That's crazy talk. What?

[A]

That's what.

[B]

Her conclusion. Yeah. You kind of warned me, but I don't think I was properly prepared.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Wow. That's

[A]

like. There's still men that are saying that Trump is anointed and appointed by God. I don't even understand how someone gets to that conclusion. Oh, it must be because I have a vagina. That's how I fell for Trump.

[B]

That's so crazy to me.

[H]

What

[B]

I'm really trying to figure out. I'm the type of person. I love reading other people's perspect perspectives and trying to, like, get into their brain and figure out how they. They did, the path that they did to get to whatever they said. I don't even know the journey she took to get to this conclusion.

[A]

I don't know either. I don't. And I like the way that certain women in conservative spaces just, like, celebrate their own oppression. It's just. It's sad. I don't.

[B]

Yeah, it's wild. Wow. Oh, wow.

[A]

So anyway, don't regret your Trump vote in this way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ways not to regret it.

[B]

I regret it. That's why women shouldn't be leaders.

[A]

Because I was a woman.

[B]

Oh, my God. And that's the other thing. The associate pastor at my church growing up was women. So I always had exposure to female leadership. So I. That's just such a weird take to me. I think more women. We need more women to be leaders. We've seen what men can do. Like, we're good. Like, no, there's some great guys, but, like, let's give somebody else a chance. Like, it's actually. Women should be leading. We should be in the conversation. We should be at the table. All of the things like, give, give, give, give. I love Melinda's reaction. Sorry to say that. Give women a chance, like. And also, the other thing is, like, you don't know what women can do until you give them the opportunity. We, at this point in our society, I think we can pretty much make some generalizations on how men operate in general in leadership positions. Like, no tea, no shade. But, like, it's okay, a little bit of shade. We could. We could try something else. We're good. We're good, and it's fine. I would love a matriarchal society.

[A]

I really, seriously, I think we can give it a chance. I mean, we've tried the patriarchy. For what?

[B]

What do we have to lose? What do we have to lose? What do we have to lose?

[A]

I mean, we're on the verge of World War III already, so it's not like it can get worse.

[B]

My God. My God.

[A]

Okay, so before we move on to our next thing, let's read some more super chats. Okay? Oh, add to broadcast from Joseph Compton. He respects God. He respects the Christian faith. I call Cap Trump makes no effort to be a better man. His behavior hasn't changed. I completely agree with that.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

From Dolk Dogan. I don't remember threatening genocide when I

[B]

was a big Christian. Like, fair. And that's just, like, the base.

[A]

A wholesome. What did he say? A whole civilization will die tonight.

[B]

A whole civilization will die tonight.

[A]

He's, like, so dramatic too.

[B]

Yes. He's, like, the worst movie villain ever.

[A]

Truly.

[B]

Right. But also the best. Like, in terms of. Like, if he were a movie villain, I'd be like, oh, this is a great movie. But, like, we're living this in real time, and I'm not enjoying it at all. And I didn't ask to be cast in this movie. Like, Right.

[A]

I honestly feel like if he were a movie villain, I would have a hard time suspending my disbelief because I'd be like, this is unrealistic.

[B]

100.

[A]

There's no one that would be this erratic. Yeah, it's man From Justine Bailey.

[B]

Yay.

[A]

Melinda's here.

[B]

Oh, hi, Justine. Yay.

[A]

From Joseph Compton. Again. They love accusing their critics of taking money from George Soros or the tnc. Just more projection from them is their only defense. Honestly. I'm allegedly paid by George Soros, and I have yet to receive a check. So, George, if you're listening, you're like, I'm waiting. Can that. Can that come in the mail, please? I've been waiting.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

All right. From Abby Mack. April, that billboard was in my town. Oh, great billboard Democrats. Oh, Justine Bailey, too. April, that billboard is gone. It was my favorite lol. Oh, no, it's gone. I really got joy when I saw that.

[B]

Oh, man, that's so funny. I wish I had seen that.

[A]

I'm sure it's online. You could probably Google it. Yeah, actually, I think I took a picture of it one time too from Jennifer Hoffman. Well, if you listen to the rest of the interview, he says some very anti Semitic comments. And I think he's positioning himself politically for a farther right America first agenda. Ew, that's disappointing.

[B]

Yeah, he's not. I mean, he's not a good person. I don't want. I'm not even trying to like insinuate that whatsoever. Right.

[A]

I do think hopefully he can wake some people up that can maybe actually do the work to become more progressive, not become Tucker Carlson.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

From Stevie Clown. Let women lead because men had their chances and failed horribly. I mean, you said it.

[B]

Amen. Amen.

[A]

Okay, on to the next topic. Not you. Go away. Laura, Lauren, RFK Jr. Who we're not

[B]

talking about enough, by the way. And he's a very, very dangerous, ill equipped man. We don't talk about him enough. We need to start dragging him on

[A]

the Internet a little bit more. The hard thing about the news cycle is that there's so much like absolute insane stuff that happens every day that people like RFK Jr. Kind of fall through the cracks because they're not. He's not like, I don't know, maybe not the most pressing.

[B]

Yeah, but he is. He actually should be.

[A]

No, I agree.

[B]

He should be at least like top three. He's. He's dangerous. He's very dangerous.

[A]

It makes me. It kind of upset me that Kristi Noem and Pam Bondi got fired before RFK Jr because he is totally screwed up.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

Well, their health department.

[B]

Tulsi's next, apparently.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I heard that too. And also Pete Hegseth. This whole cabinet is terrible.

[B]

Someone said it's a junk drawer, not a cabinet.

[A]

Oh, I like that. I think I saw someone say that Pete Hegseth is the liquor cabinet.

[B]

Oh my gosh. Yes. But him by himself and cash. Actually, him and cash together.

[A]

Okay. This is a exchange between Summer Lee and RFK Jr. And RFK Jr. Was testifying. Oh, it says right here. Testifying before the House Education and Workforce Committee. I think it was around a budget approval for 2027.

[B]

Yeah. Because he wanted 12% of funding for all the medical needs that we have under the government, which is really, really significant.

[A]

Yeah. So this is a bit of a longer video. If at any point you want to Respond to something that's happening, just, just say so and I'll pause it.

[B]

Great. Great, lee.

[H]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So this is Black Maternal Health Week, so I'll just start there. Secretary Kennedy, I'm sure you're aware that black women are at least three times more likely to die from pregnancy related causes than white women. The vast majority of those deaths are preventable. Black women in my district are more likely to die during pregnancy than their pe. 97% of US cities. Your written testimony mentions maternal and child health four times. But from what I've seen, the NIH canceled grants researching black maternal health. Your administration's fiscal year 27 budget proposes eliminating Healthy Start, which is one of the federal government's primary community based maternal health programs. And you've made it a priority of HHS to end diversity, equity and inclusion. So, yes or no, My question for you is, if a medical school, our public health school, educates students about addressing the black maternal mortality crisis, would you consider that an illegal dei?

[B]

No.

[H]

No, you would not?

[D]

No.

[H]

Great. I do hope for the medical schools, the universities and the accreditors your administration has been threatening that they're watching this and take this directive to continue teaching about in addressing the black mortality crisis. And I expect your agency to restore and expand funding and support for that work. Also, yes or no, do you think consuming more protein and avoiding Tylenol will prevent black women from dying three times more likely during a pregnancy?

[D]

I doubt it. Tylenol doesn't kill.

[H]

Then why are you putting forth. Why aren't you putting forth serious policies that actually address the health crises crises in this country instead of just these unserious conspiracy theories and this wellness influencer mess that we answer that question?

[D]

Are you just talking?

[H]

No, it's a question.

[D]

We are doing more on maternal health than any other administration.

[H]

No, I said black maternal health on maternal health.

[D]

Black maternal health includes blacks and whites.

[H]

But the thing is, is that they're actually not the same outcomes. Which means that we need specific and intentional interventions for black maternal health and black. Are you going to answer that?

[D]

Yeah, we have a. Right now we've implemented a perinatal pilot project that we're in 220 hospitals around the country and we have reduced maternal health mortalities by 42% at those hospitals by providing them protocols.

[H]

Can you please share what the reduction has been for black maternal health across the board?

[D]

It's 42%.

[H]

But black maternal health still has worse outcomes than other people.

[D]

I wouldn't know. It helps everybody, but it isn't I object to that.

[H]

Okay, thank you. It is not. I do want to, just for the record, state that it does not help everyone. Your agency told programs to remove a list of nearly 200 words and phrases from their funding applications, including the word black. Do you have an idea of how we could solve the black maternal mortality crisis if we can't say black?

[D]

President Trump is trying to end eviction in this country. Not. Sorry, not eviction during the last four years. That's what DEI did. It divided people. It polarized people.

[H]

No, no, no, no, no. We're not talking about eviction. We're talking about health care.

[D]

We're talking about dei.

[H]

We're talking about healthcare disparities. So what we're asking is if you attack DE and I and then we have a crisis that impacts one population over another, but you cannot direct specific spending or research or interventions to that population, how do you solve the problem?

[D]

Do you think the federal government should be paying for dei?

[H]

I think the federal government has a vested interest in ensuring that its citizens survive childbirth.

[D]

Well, we. We are meeting that obligation.

[H]

You're not.

[D]

Oh, that. I can explain to you how we.

[A]

Now pause there. This man, I'm like, I need to

[B]

roll my sleeves up before we start.

[A]

It's like nails on chalkboard listening to him.

[B]

And you know, he just started a podcast, but I know that's neither here nor there, but, God, I would not be listening to that for an hour. Okay, this is very personal for me. This is very, very personal for me. Those of you that may not know, I have a 22 month old and a 6 year old, and for both of my pregnancies, my number one fear was that I would die. I have a black OBGYN that I drove almost an hour to and I said I would not have a child unless I found a black obgyn. Because it is statistically shown that when black women have black doctors, their survival rate is higher. Even then, I was still worried when I was in the hospital the first time with my daughter. First of all, April, you can speak to this. When you're pregnant and you're in that or you're about to give birth, you don't know what's going on. You're dragged up, everything's a mess, everything's crazy. There's a lot of people coming in and out of your room and, like, it's not really the greatest experience giving birth. Like, like, people act like it's not

[A]

really something you do for funsies.

[B]

It's not how it's in the movies, it's really. It's long, it's painful, and it's terrible. Right. And I specifically remember that with Sienna, there was meconium, which I don't know if you know what meconium is, but she gave a bowel movement inside my. Inside the womb, inside the placenta. And so you do have a certain amount of time that you have to deliver the baby when that happens, because if they inhale it, they will have, you know, breathing problems. It could get to the brain, all of these things. Right. When my doctor came in, she was like, okay, like you're. You're almost, you know, ready to. None of the nurses told her about the meconium. My husband had to. And he had just gone to get, like, coffee. So he was gone for like 40 minutes. And there was 40 minutes that they did not tell the doctor when she walked into the room that I had meconium. I'm saying this all to say is that black women are treated differently in the hospital, and there's nothing that you can do to get around that. It doesn't matter what your class is, what your economic level is, doesn't matter. Like your celebrity status. Serena Williams even had problems. There is medical racism that runs rampant in these hospitals. And so these black maternal health programs are not only helping to avoid medical racism, but also to help with those outcomes in terms of living right, training people, helping them. DEI is important because you want to have other people in the rooms that are. Look that. Look like me to know that you'll be protected. So for this man that is so ill equipped, is so uneducated, that knows nothing about this, to act as if maternal mortality rate across the board is the same versus the black. Like, he wouldn't even admit that there is a black maternal mortality rate, that there's a difference. That is a huge problem. And as someone who's given birth to twice and been scared for that, it. It bothers me so much because I worry anytime a black person is pregnant is going to the hospital because you don't know what the outcome is going to be, you shouldn't have to worry about that. Black women are more worried about that. First of all, giving birth in general is very, very hard and difficult. But, like, I doubt that you worried you were going to die, right?

[A]

No, I. And honestly, it never. I was worried that I wouldn't be able to give birth naturally and that I'd have to do a C section. Like, I wasn't worried about dying.

[B]

You weren't worried about dying because of neglect. Because of racism. Because of how. Because of the outcomes. Right. Because of the care. Because of not telling people about certain shots that their baby should get when they. Because they don't do that also. And so the fact that he's trying to cut funding for black maternal health programs is so egregiously racist. There's no other way. There's no other way to look around it. And so I wrote a whole thing about this, but it's really. It's deeply concerning because. Yes. Thank you for.

[A]

I found this graph. That's what I was looking at. This is from national center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion. Like, that. Is that. Is that disparity is huge. Huge difference.

[B]

Yeah. And people don't. People don't understand. It's. It's terrifying knowing that that's what your first thought is. Like, you can't even really enjoy the experience, even though it's like, it's not the fun experience, but you're like, oh, I'm bringing a life into the world. It's like, am I gonna be able to see that life?

[A]

Right?

[B]

Am I gonna be able to raise that life? You know, because I have to worry about making sure that I'm going to live. And it wasn't anything in my OB gyn, because she's a black woman, she's a rock star. She ended up kicking everybody out of that room and was like, I only want the most qualified people in this room if you're gonna help me care for my patient. She was mad, and she should have been mad. That's the first thing you got to tell people when. If you have specific medical information to give about the. The. The health of the mom and the baby.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you don't. You don't relay that information the minute she walks in to check in. Like, that's so important. And so, yeah. I mean, and somebody said, yeah, it's not even just, you know, being a black mom. It's black patients in general. Like, just from the medications that we are given or not given. How the BMI is completely racist, by the way. I don't know if you know that. Like, all the history of that, it's really based on European standards and body type. And it's not even accounting for the fact that we are built differently. Right. There's just so much to that. But cutting funding specifically for these programs, you can't address specific needs if you take away the labels. The problem that I have. And I'm sorry, I'm going off on this.

[A]

Go off so personal for me personally,

[B]

is that a lot of these people with this mindset and this ideology, whenever you put a label or a descriptor on something, they view it as discrimination rather than addressing a specific need. Black maternal health is not excluding anybody. It is addressing black maternal health. We're not talking about this. When you have prostate cancer research, you think women are mad about that? Are men mad about breast cancer research? You know what I'm saying? Are you mad about research for autism? They have no problem funding that. Those are specifics. But it's because it's the race of black that is being put in front of this funding, in front of these initiatives. That's the problem that they have. It's not the policy. It's the word black that they have a problem with. And I would much rather them just come out and say, we don't care about black people. I would just much rather you say that than to act like, well, no, everything is not for everybody. Everything does not affect people the same way. And it's so frustrating for me to just see this happening because black women get affected so much more by all of these policies than any other race in this country. As women and as black people, we get the end of the stick. You know what I mean? And so people like rfk, they. First of all, he's an idiot. I'm just gonna, like, he's an idiot. I don't know how he is in this job. He has no credibility. He has no experience in this field.

[A]

He has a weird obsession with dead animal parts.

[B]

He's. I mean, he, he, he. He makes me itch. Like, I just feel gross when I see him and I listen to him talk. But he's not trying to make America healthy again, that's for sure. He's not doing anything that is. That is dedicated. He doesn't care about specificity for. For research funding. I really don't know what his. His goals are or what his intended outcomes are, but he's going to get a lot of people killed. And especially even with vaccines. Like, there is so much distrust in the medical field because of this man. People are not taking. There's another clip from this hearing about the budget because he reduced funding for vaccines for newborns. Like the vitamin K, hepatitis B, all that vitamin K, like, that's needed. There's a whole wonderful clip of somebody talking about this. But there are things that people need and that babies need to stop from. Like, vitamin K helps from, like, internal bleeding, right? Why are you cutting, cutting funding for that? That doesn't make any sense.

[A]

No.

[B]

And he has no real explanations except for I read a study. Like I could go read any study on anything right now. That doesn't mean make me an expert to make these decisions for the entire population of this country and put everybody's lives at risk. I'm going to sit down now.

[A]

No. Fine. I saw an article too, or a headline that was talking about another part in this hearing. There were a couple studies that RFK Jr. Quoted to back up what he was claiming. And in the middle of the hearing, someone fact checked those studies and in fact found that the study said the opposite of what he was claiming. For those listening on the podcast, I just wanna read what this graph says so you can hear it. It says the pregnancy related mortality per 100,000 births by race and ethnicity. White you have 14.9, Hispanic, you have 12.3. Asian you have 10.7, and black is 49.4. It is a huge disparity between that and I think this shows the dangers of the people that say they, quote, don't see color as a way to try to act like they're not racist, but by you not acknowledging color and race actually leads to like literal death. Like in this case and him trying to act like, oh, where we are studying, you know, maternal mortality, that. That does nothing in general for black women.

[B]

Yeah, because they just don't care about black women. I mean, that's. It's. They just don't. We know, look at the, I mean, look at everything they've done. The 300,000 black women that are out of jobs because they're mostly in federal jobs, like, that's a huge, huge, A huge thing. And they just don't care.

[A]

Yeah, it's a huge discrepancy. It's awful. Props to Summerly though, for holding his butt to the fire.

[B]

Yeah, incredible.

[I]

Hi, my name is Courtney. I live in London, United Kingdom and I am a TNE monthly donor. I'm a domestic abuse survivor and was raised with John MacArthur and purity culture rhetoric. I left my abuser in September 2020, moving from LA to southern Utah. I had been a Cali girl my whole life, so seeing the Christian nationalism and patriarchy present in Utah gave me quite a shock. During that time, I began deconstructing and making sense of my abuse and how my church upbringing and political affiliations contributed to it. It's a painful discovery that I'm still coming to terms with. I've never been a big believer in tithing, but you guys gave me a mission I can get behind. I hate that term now, but I don't know of any other more fitting. The US is on a trajectory mirroring that of 1930s Germany. And if something isn't done soon to circumvent that, I worry what the repercussions would be not just for the US

[B]

but for the whole world.

[A]

Okay, let's. Oh, I've got one more. One more video from RFK from this hearing that I thought was especially idiotic.

[H]

Awful.

[B]

He's just awful.

[A]

Yeah, this one's shorter.

[B]

Everyone watching. Light him up on. On. On social media. He's not getting enough.

[A]

No, he's not getting enough. He needs to be fired.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, here. You know what?

[D]

President Trump has a different way of calculating. If there's two ways of calculating percentage. If you have a $600 truck and you reduce it to 10, that's. That's a 600% reduction.

[A]

You know, I. I don't know if you caught that.

[B]

President Trump has a different way of calculating. So now he has Trump math.

[A]

Yeah, no, he. And he said if. Hold on, catch. Listen to this. Listen closely. You know what?

[D]

The. President Trump has a different way of calculating. If there's two ways of calculating percentage. If you have a $600 truck and you reduce it to 10, that's a 600% reduction.

[A]

You know, he says if you have a 600 drug and you reduce it to $10, that. That is a 600% reduction.

[B]

What math is he doing? I didn't hear that. Oh, my God.

[A]

That is not how math works, RFK Jr.

[B]

Wow. Okay, this is embarrassing.

[A]

It is embarrassing. Anyway, okay, let's read a few more super chats and then we'll get to our last segment, which you don't. You haven't seen it. You'll get a blind. I'll get a blind react from you again. Okay, where are we at? Here we go. From Prez Base or Bass. RFK is why some animals eat their young. Come from Dawson Ballard. Ballard. From George Soros. Much love. Oh, thanks, George. From Joseph Compton. Preach, Melinda. They don't trust us the same. They think we have a higher tolerance for pain. They think we're superhuman.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I remember being so disturbed by a lot of medical tests that happened on black people where they wouldn't use any sort of anesthesia because they would.

[B]

I mean, it goes back to slavery. That's how gynecology became. From J. Marion Sims. He would practice on enslaved black women without anesthesia. A lot of them would die. But now we have the practice of Gynecology. So, again, black women always sacrificing their bodies for medical good. Henrietta Lacks, Tuskegee trials for syphilis. I mean, I. Again, I could go off on this for a very long time.

[A]

No, I know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Ugh, it's awful. From. From Melanie Lee. I just had a thought. Besides mortality, is this a way to discourage black women from having babies at all?

[B]

Probably. I mean, they don't. They want more white babies. They've made that very, very clear. Yeah. And that's also, I think, why. Again, this is a. This is a cyclical thing. There is higher abortion rates in the black community, but it comes down to economic status and access and medical racism. Right. And so that's why they want to criminalize abortion, because then they can lock more black people up. It's a whole cycle. There's a whole thing that goes along with this. So, yes, it probably is part of

[A]

it, which is so interesting because I don't. I don't know if you've heard this, but when I. I went to a bunch of Black Lives Matter Protest back in 2020 in small town Tennessee, and they would, like, we would have counter protesters that would show up and that would yell at us that we were actually the racist ones if we supported abortion because Planned Parenthood killed more black babies than, like, anything. Like, it's just weird the way that they'll twist things on a dime to support their positions, like, but they don't actually care about black babies or black women or.

[B]

I had one conservative person that I actually. That I said something about that and that the reason that there's higher abortion rates is because of social, economic status and medical racism and access. And they DM'd me and they said, hey, do you actually have any information on that? Because I hadn't heard this before and I was like, praise baby Jesus. Because I was. It was. I mean, they were genuinely curious. Never heard from them again. But the fact that they even reached out to me because it was something that they hadn't heard, I was really, really grateful because I'm like, okay, this is an opportunity to educate. So I sent a bunch of articles, things that I've even written on my sub stack. I was just like, here, read this. Like, hope it helps, you know? Yeah. But they may not hear that because you never know what they're talking about on that side. You never know.

[A]

Well, I know what they're talking about on that side, and it is a lot of crap. Well, and that's something I have to remind myself too. Is a lot of people hold these positions based on wrong information that they believe to be factual. So, you know, indoctrination goes hard, I guess. And then finally from Stevie writes, RFK is only running HHS because he was running for president and the Repug goblins needed him to drop to make room for Cheeto face. That was a fun sentence. I enjoyed that. Okay, okay, let me see if I have my stinger here and we'll get to the final segment.

[D]

I can't wait.

[A]

Christian sh T. Woohoo. All right, I need to get you off the screen and killing it.

[B]

April, I'm so proud of you.

[A]

Oh, stop, stop, stop, stop.

[B]

I already love this.

[A]

I know Tim told me to like I need to turn off autoplay on all these and clearly I forgot to do that on a few, but that's fine. Okay, so this is like classic weird Christian segment. This is from some sort of Christian VHS tape from like the 90s. And I don't know the name of it because I found it on some VHS 90s Instagram account.

[B]

Oh, the 90s, the 90s. So good old days were already there. Those are the good old days.

[A]

Yeah, for those listening, they're going, they're talking to someone that is a puppet. So just so you know, it's like a puppet looking thing. So here we go.

[B]

I'm so scared.

[A]

What is that? Beats me. Maybe a mouse escaped from a zoo.

[B]

Yeah, let's step on it.

[G]

Hey now cut that out. My name is Nanny Feather and I've come to tell you about Jesus and to ask you to come with me to Sunday school next week at the Church of the Good Shepherd. Is she kidding?

[A]

And who wants to hear about Jesus?

[B]

Some guy who wore dresses.

[G]

He did not. He wore robes. Everybody wore robes back then, you big dummy. So what?

[A]

He was still a sissy.

[G]

He was not. He died on a cross just because he loved people so much. Even dummies like you. I bet you wouldn't be brave enough to die on a cross for anybody.

[A]

Aw, get out of here, you little creep. Otherwise we'll feed you too the birds.

[G]

Okay, I'm going. But not because I'm afraid of you. I want to go.

[B]

Okay. All I thought of was that movie Saved. When Mandy Mor goes. I am.

[A]

Why was she so aggressive?

[B]

She's like, well, I mean, that's an accurate portrayal of some Christians these days. Just mean, that's funny. Oh my gosh, that's so funny.

[A]

Yeah, but Jesus want to die for you, you dummy. Like, wow.

[B]

Miss, what was the goal of this video?

[A]

I have no idea. I don't know any more context than this clip.

[B]

Oh, I don't think I want. I actually don't even know if I want any more context. I think this is good enough. That's. Wow. Also that. Oh, my goodness. I could just imagine watching that in like, Sunday school. So what did you learn? Well, it seems like Christians are pretty mean. That's what I learned.

[A]

Very aggressive. Well, also, the way they make the villains too, in, like, these Christian clips are also pretty mean. Like, I've never, like, told someone about Jesus and they were like, oh, Jesus was a sissy. Like, literally no one's ever responded in that way.

[B]

The guy who wore dresses took me out. That's so funny. Yeah. Like, oh, my gosh, this is definitely not a Union production.

[A]

No, no, it was not. Gosh, that's so Jesus loves you, you bunch of dummies.

[B]

Why would someone want to go to church with her? Like, ew, like, you're mean. I don't want to church with you. Is that how people are at your church? That's exactly why people walk away, because this is mean.

[A]

No. So true.

[B]

I love the bangs, though.

[A]

I know someone said it might be. It looks 80s to them. Maybe it was 80s. It was on a 90s VHS account. But, you know, there's some, there's some blurring there.

[B]

Probably late 80s. Yeah. Even though I was watching, I think I posted the other day about how I was watching Independence Day, which was in the 90s, and it looks so old. I wanted to cry. Oh, it looks so old, girl. So this could be the 90s.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Our stuff looks weird. We're that age now. I know.

[A]

I don't like it. I don't like feeling old. Like, my heart, I feel. I still feel young on the inside, but then my body's like, you're almost 40. Stop it.

[B]

Yeah, it really hit me the hardest when NSync had their 30 year reunion and I was like, no, no, no. It was like, oh, no, no.

[A]

It, it, it hit me the other day when I was telling my daughter some kind of story. She's. She's nine. And I mentioned like, oh, yeah, I used to have. I think I might have been talking about NSYNC actually. And I was like, yeah, that was my first cd. And she was like, what's a cd?

[B]

Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, this is where we are. Like, what do you mean?

[A]

Like, it's like a, a circular little disc that you listen to music on. And she's like, you didn't have Spotify. No, we didn't.

[B]

You.

[A]

You had to listen to the music that you went out and purchased from a store and sometimes waited in line

[B]

when it was like the Tuesday drop of the new album. You ever do that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or you got viruses on your computer because you use Limewire to download. Download music that had weird porn ads on it.

[B]

Oh, the good old.

[A]

The good old days. Oh, wait, we have one more super chat from Joseph Compton. What a mean and creepy puppet. How does that lead anyone to Christ? I don't know. I know a lot of people just like this little puppet.

[B]

Yes, exactly. They're not leading anybody to Jesus.

[A]

No, they are not. All right, well, everyone, that was our show. Our show. Words. If you haven't, please follow Melinda Hale on all the things you want to tell people where they can find you.

[B]

Sure. Yeah, just Melinda Hale. I'm super easy to find. Yep.

[A]

And we'll put your name in the show notes, too. And yeah, and if you're here, like our video, subscribe to our YouTube channel. Leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. Wherever you listen to podcasts, check out the New Evangelicals. Tne, yeah, have some really awesome stuff happening.

[B]

And we have two other. We have two other shows on tne. We have Advocacy Hour that I host with Rebecca Thomas, who's our board president. And that's all about putting your faith into action. And we spotlight different organizations that are doing on the ground work if you're wanting to get more involved. And then obviously the flagship show, the New Evangelicals. So check them out. Subscribe, like, comment. All the things.

[A]

All the things. And we got one final super chat from Prez Bass. Bass. I liked him a lot, but I'm kind of crushing on Melinda. I mean, same. Honestly, who. Who isn't? All right, that's our show. Check us out. We also release new episodes every Tuesday, and then we go live Every Thursday at 12pm Eastern on YouTube. And then you can listen to the podcast next day. So that's my spiel, and we will see y' all next time.

[B]

Bye, Sam.