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The Tim & April Show
109. The Epstein of the Church World: Lawyers Detail Horrifying Allegations Around Harvest Church Scandal
01:00:43
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- [00:00]
A
You're listening to a new evangelicals production, The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.
- [00:23]
B
What's up, friends? Welcome back to the show. I am Tim Whitaker.
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A
And I'm April Ajoy.
- [00:27]
B
We have quite the episode. This is maybe one of the most intense ones we've ever done, especially for a guest interview. And we just want to put out a trigger warning. Now this subject material deals a lot with child abuse, with sa, with all kinds of probably very triggering things, especially for ex pentricals who come out of church world. We're talking about Greg Laurie today and we have a very special set of guests to kind of dig into what's going on there. So just a heads up on that and, and also before you go we go any further, make sure to give this video a like and subscribe to the channel. We go live Every Thursday at 12:00 clock Eastern on YouTube and on Substack. So April, where should we even start? Yikes. There's so much.
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A
Yeah, well, I think, to be clear, Greg Laurie is not the one that is accused of the.
- [01:14]
B
No, no, yes.
- [01:16]
A
The bad stuff. What we're dealing with. It sounds like your typical evangelical church kind of rushing things, really awful things under the rug. And so in this episode we're actually going to be talking to two lawyers, Ann Olivarius and Jeff McAllister. They are married for 44 years, which is amazing. We'll get to. Well, we will welcome them in just a second. But they are lawyers that are heading up a case that there's a lawsuit that involves Greg Laurie's church, Harvest Church, and some really egregious things that happened at, I believe it was an orphanage or some sort of shelter for children in Romania. We will get all the context for that very soon, but it will be a heavier thing. But I think, and actually I got connected with Ann because a few episodes ago, maybe like a month ago, we were talking about just the way that a lot of evangelical churches brush things under the rug or will be willing to kind of ignore things in order to protect the ministry. And we actually mentioned this case with Greg Lori and Harvest Church. And Ann, I think had tweeted us that, you know, that she was working on the case and was so, like, glad that we mentioned it and was like, hey, do you want to come on and actually talk about the case? And she graciously said yes. So that's context.
- [02:37]
B
Yes. And this is just a couple of, you know, disclaimers. It is a civil lawsuit. It's not criminal. That's important to just say out from the front. Of course, everything is alleged at this point. So it is, though. I mean, April, you and I have been doing this for a long time. And you know, I think about the SBC Southern Baptist Convention, I think about all the cases that we've covered of. There's a pattern of evangelical church culture, you know, of like you said, and we grew up in this. Right. Protect the ministry at all costs because look at all the souls that they're saving. And ironically, Greg Laurie and his church, Harvest, they have a whole ministry called Harvest, where they do these huge rallies trying to harvest souls for Christ, you know, so this is gonna be. This is a potentially very big case, you know, because it deals with, with a really big church and a church culture that is shaping a lot of minds and is very big and very established. So, yeah, I think that's all I got for this part.
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A
Do you wanna give some context for who Greg Laurie is, just so people know?
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B
Yeah. I mean, I could talk about Gregory very briefly. He is a mega, megachurch pastor. He's been around for a long, long time. However, in my opinion, he has shifted more politically over the past four to five years. I've kind of watched him evolve from someone who was more like evangelism focused, was really big on doing these Harvest crusades. Right now he's speaking at Turning Point USA events. Now he's talking about political issues more and more, even from the pulpit. So he is one of the pastors that I've witnessed personally kind of doing that right wing shift of, you know, you know, us pastors have to get more involved in politics to save the country. So I would put him more in the Christian nationalist lane personally at this point, watching his journey. And he's been around for a very long time. There's even a movie that was based loosely on his story about, you know, the, the whole Jesus movement. So he's been a pioneer in, in the modern evangelical space for a long time when it comes to kind of modernizing the church with like the modern praise and worship, kind of giving the blueprint for churches like Hillsong and Elevation to kind of go off of. So he's definitely no small player at all. And, and so that's important to know. And this is definitely not something that is, you know, he's not a tadpole. Yeah, he's just not. So.
- [04:47]
A
Yeah, for sure. Okay, so. Well, let's welcome our guests. I mentioned them earlier. We have Ann olivarius and Jeff McAllister, who are lawyers on this case, and they're going to basically just kind of walk us through the logistics of what is happening. But welcome, Ann and Jeff, to the Tim and April Show.
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C
Thank you.
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D
Thank you. Nice to be here.
- [05:07]
A
Yeah. Yeah, we are happy to have you. So why don't you give us the background context, first, of what was happening in Romania that even led to Harvest Church getting involved over there.
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C
We might want to just say, you know, it's. It's been established and really well known that after Ceausescu, who ran Romania, it was a time in its history where it was known as the pedophile capital of the world. So this is not a place where it was unknown that bad things were going on, dangerous things for kids. A lot of people were there up to no good. So that's the backdrop of the culture that this happened in.
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A
And he was the ruling dictator of Romania.
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D
He was the dictator. And there's been a lot of stories about what happened inside Romanian state orphanages set up both under Ceausescu and after him. That got a lot of publicity 20 years ago or so, places where, you know, kids were tied to cots for days on end. And that was just awful. So the. The pastor, who is. So we. We now are lawyers in a lawsuit that's in the. Filed in Los Angeles federal court in the Riverside Division. And what we're going to talk about are the allegations in the complaint in this case. We have to be clear that we are simply reporting and restating what we have already put in the court documents. We're not making new claims here. And that complaint refers to the perpetrator in Romania, a Pastor Paul Havgard, who did some missions work for Samaritan's Purse, delivering boxes of Christmas presents in Romania, and then came back to Greg Laurie and said, let's open our own mission in Romania, went back with funds and with the mandate to open this mission, which became a group of four children's homes for kids that were taken off the street. They had been living in train stations and in the sewers. They would hang around McDonald's hoping to get a meal, which was where Havsguard prospected for them. He would buy them a McDonald's meal, give them a Jesus loves you bracelet, say, you can come to these homes where you'll get three square meals a day and a roof over your head and some education and be safe. And he had a lot of takers. And as it quickly turned out, this was a system of harvesting bodies for him to do essay on. And such was the nature of these children who were so beaten down and really the best kind of victims to pick because they had such bleak prospects and they wouldn't be believed if they made any complaint, of course, against this very impressive American pastor, that he could basically do whatever he wanted. And they stayed, many of them, in terrible conditions for many years. The average time that the kids stayed in these homes was six and a half years by our reckoning. And in that period, a hierarchy would develop of his favorites. Those were those who would succumb to his desires for abuse the most easily. And he would buy them presents and give them things and take them on trips, and the other ones would just sort of try to get along. It was a kind of Lord of the flies atmosphere where everybody was mean to each other. He would say, God loves you. I do what God tells me to do. God wants me to do this for you. I am your father. Treat me like your father. Kind of mixing up these poor kids minds and now. And the effect on many of them has been to drive them away from all organized religion and to have them feel that, you know, there is no benign God. But he played on this role as pastor to bring people in and to subdue them essentially so that they would succumb to the SA and to other physical abuse, Tying people to radiators, making them kneel on walnut shells for punishment. It was a terrible, terrible place. And he was able to get away with it because of his stature as an American with money in a place that really was in desperate straits.
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A
And his position in this home was funded by Harvest Church.
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D
Yes. I mean, I'm sorry, I don't want to do all the talking. I'll stop soon. He was sent there. He received the amount we calculated was $17,000 a month from harvest and related charities who fundraised in conjunction with Harvest. He was kept on their book of pastors for many years. When he was in Romania, he would come back and raise money at Harvest, bringing some of the Romanian children with him. And he abused them in California, too. And this was all in deeply enmeshed in the life of Harvest. They sent care packages, they sent volunteers. They were. They were really deeply involved. The other people on the board of the charity set up were other people in the Calvary network. There's no sign that, you know, other people necessarily knew about all the bad things going on who were associated. Of course, I'm sure the people at Harvest were good souls and trying to give money to a very worthy cause, as it indeed seemed to be. But they were deceived about what was happening. And he was a very good fundraiser, and it was a marriage of convenience where Harvest was able to profit from his being in Romania.
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B
What years are we talking about here? 2000s? The 90s? When does the lawsuit talk about when these allegations took place?
- [11:55]
D
1999-2008 was the active period.
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A
Okay, so how did these. How did this abuse come to light?
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D
We were doing some work in Romania, and we had someone talk to us about it, and we interviewed the person, and one thing led to another. And we now have 23 plaintiffs in this lawsuit.
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C
And what we've learned is that the kids that were there, they. They independently have gone off. So they don't, you know, they don't live together. They don't talk to each other. It's been many, many years. But when they've approached us independently, the way they talk about what happened to them is very, very similar. And they talk about being tortured. Those are words that they use. And it's, you know, probably there's a very good chance. Of course, one never knows, but Paul Havgard might be the most prolific child abuser in the United States today. Now, you don't know how many others are out there candidating, but the volume of his abuse was so horrific and so extensive that it is really hard to think of what those children could have endured that was worse than what Paul Havgard subjected them to.
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A
Wow. So when did. Where's Paul Havgard now? Is he in jail?
- [13:21]
C
No. Harvest never reported him in any meaningful way. We heard maybe they told somebody in their congregation who had a chef, you know, a sheriff's role, that perhaps they should look into this, but nothing really happened. When Havgard came back, and it was fully known to Greg, Laurie and a number of people at Harvest what he'd been doing, Absolutely. They recommended him for jobs. I mean, it's clear he got other positions in Calvary churches. Nobody, you know, you would have thought there had been a private phone call at the very least that would have said, hey, you know, Tim April, this guy's trouble. You don't want him in your church, but he's been allowed to be in churches to deal with youth matters, you know, alone. I mean, he has not had any, you know, back. Anything has happened to him. We can see, you know, from this. So. And then certainly Harvest has known about the depth of this problem for many years now, and they've chosen to do really nothing that, you know, they didn't go then to back to Romania and try to Track down the kids who've been so harmed and abused, their lives destroyed, and say, hey, we're Christians. We really want to help you. We're so sorry. We've just found out about this. Tell us what happened to you and get your psychological help. We can do something. They haven't done any of that. They just wanted to wash the hands of it, be in denial and then, you know, not associate with us. They certainly don't want to talk to us. They just want this to go away. They don't want any responsibility for any of this.
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D
And. And if I might say so, this is the reason we have a lawsuit in California and not in Romania, because our lawsuit is actually, although it does name Paul Havard, the perpetrator himself as a defendant. We are focusing our lawsuit on Harvest and on Greg Laurie and on Reverend Schutt, the missions minister in charge of the foreign missions, because it's the COVID up and the way of handling havsguard that I think is actually the more significant problem. So we have. These are hard cases to research, as you know, can imagine, because everybody's in denial that anything happened. But it appears that the earliest word started to circulate about what Hazard was doing. And just the following year, the cook there made complaints to visiting Americans. They didn't really go anywhere. People don't really want to believe it, of course, but there were a number of other visitors who heard strange things. And these reached a really a cascade of seriousness of independent reports. The finance director reported, but hav's guard would go out of his way to try to call him a liar, so that when the reports came back to California, they were disbelieved. But finally, another American missionary in Romania heard enough of this that he called up Harvest and said, I think you ought to do something about this. It's really not looking good from what I hear here.
- [16:35]
C
And this is in 2004.
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D
And he gets a call back saying, we've heard that somebody in your church has said terrible things about our guy Havsgard. And he said, well, I'm the guy who said the bad things about your Guy Havsgard. And in fact, there are bad things to say. And so then he said, they authorized an inspection mission of the homes that was chaired by that pastor named Steve Quarles, who did got two other pastors to help him because he knew this was going to be, I think, politically quite difficult. They did an investigation. They asked for then Richard Schutt, the number two man or the guy in charge of the passion, the Missions to come out and see for himself because they didn't want this to get soft, soaked or somehow passed down. The buck passed. He came. They said, you have to get Paul Havgard on that plane with you when you leave tomorrow. He's an embarrassment to all Christian missionaries and he is doing sa and he's also stealing from the church. And they thought that they sort of had a deal. It didn't work out. They heard that the church thought that Havsgard was too important to the fundraising to fire. And so the solution was basically a soft landing to keep him in place. Not to say anything to anybody, not to report him, not to put any new procedures in place, not to help the kids, but just to turn the money spigot down slowly so that the homes finally closed four years later. It took that long. In the meantime, no extra policing. Hafsgard was free to continue to abuse. He got a $200,000 severance payment. He came back to a life of honor in California.
- [18:30]
C
And in fact, Greg Laurie, like a year later equated him to like as to Moses. Moses, this man is really extraordinary. And Greg Lurie knew everything. He was fully aware of how problematic this man was. And in fact there have been reports in Riverside about how his sisters, two of his sisters he had sexually molested, you know, soon the ages of 8, when they were 8 and he was 16, their foster girl he'd also sexually molested. There's all sorts of stuff that we've known about him. Also that there was a four year old girl that he penetrated, molested, and then urinated inside of her. All this is circulating. A lot of people have a lot of information, but nothing is done until this 2004 group comes and they say, jigs up, it's over, it's got to stop. But it doesn't stop. Laurie lets it continue. And nothing is done until four years later when Hazard finally goes back to greater glory. He's, you know, lauded as if he were a Moses creature. And he's been doing work in that Riverside area of California with Calvary churches ever since.
- [19:42]
D
He's at a church right now, he's retired and he's. I, I think they reached a kind of tacit understanding, not know, not to sort of get in his way. So he, he would do Bible studies, he would do lower level things. He, he did have a job in a Calvary church for a couple of years after he came back. And clearly no one put the kavash on it, although I would have thought Greg Lurie had Enough sway in that field that he would have been able to if he had wished.
- [20:16]
C
And not long ago, some years ago, he actually performed a wedding at Harvest. So, I mean, he's there. He's a presence. He wasn't somebody who disappeared and drifted off into the sunset. No, he's. He's there.
- [20:29]
B
I mean, based on, you know, what you just described, it sounds like the Epstein of the church world. I mean, those. Those things are disgusting. They're unbelievable. They're unfathomable, frankly. And I want to make sure I understand you both clearly that what you're saying is that Greg Laurie and other leaders at Harvest knew about this abuse that was going on and still allowed him to fundraise and kind of have his platform when he came back, he was kind of hailed a hero and given money and, you know, Lori had him on stage comparing him to Moses or something, something to that effect. You know, he called him a Moses type figure.
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D
We can only say for sure.
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B
Yeah.
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D
About when. They must have known at harvest from 2004 when they sent the mission and the mission was told by the people they had asked to be the inspectors that he needed to be removed before then. We think there's enough smoke that the fire could have been visible had Buddy done a prudent job of inspecting, asking, had taken all the steps that I think most organizations would when rumors of this sort get back, whether they just didn't do it, whether they didn't want to believe it. Of their brother pastor. He was a original incorporator of the precursor organization to Harvest Christian Fellowship. They'd known each other a long time. It's hard for us to know precisely when the light bulb went off in Greg Laurie's mind, but we don't think there was any excuse for it not having gone off after 2004. And still he was allowed to be in place in Romania for another four years.
- [22:17]
B
Right. So even. Even if by the latest measurement of when Laurian Harvest leaders might have known 2004 and on, Paul was still allowed to be in the position he was in. And also, again, was. Was well received when he returned back to the States and served, it sounds like from what you said, in ministry until quite recently, in. In different capacities, in different, you know, potentially different churches, but he was still in ministry and no one really blew the whistle on him, given the fact that he was a serial child abuser.
- [22:46]
C
Exactly.
- [22:47]
A
And then so. And to clarify, they. Harvest church, I guess, after becoming aware of something, slowly kind of stopped funding the orphanages until they completely shuttered it in 2008. And that was when Laurie gave Havsgard a $200,000 severance.
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D
The severance may have been paid in chunks between 2004 and 2008, to be technical, but yes, basically it was. That was when he came home.
- [23:19]
A
And then I saw on the write up that y' all had sent that they basically that Harvest Church scrubbed the website of any mention of Havard. And then have they made any sort of public statement about what happened?
- [23:38]
D
They made a public statement in the wake of our filing the first complaint in this series of complaints which where they said we take the issues very seriously and kind of implied apology for any harm done, but said that our focus should be on Havsguard and not on them. And that we were celebrity lawyers and basically up to, you know, making a lot of money off their good works. And I mean, you. You can get the statement or I can send it to you and you can decide for yourself what it says. I don't think it really deals seriously with the issues that we try to raise in the lawsuit.
- [24:26]
A
Yeah, the stuff that you all are, are saying and that is in this lawsuit is truly, like, so egregious that I don't have the words for it. Like, I knew it was bad, right? But like, it's so much worse than even because I read the article. I don't. I don't know how people can be so evil. I mean, truly, I. I applaud you both for taking on this lawsuit. I know, like, the power that a lot of these churches have, I'm sure scares a lot of people away from speaking up and speaking out and going head to head. Gosh, I don't know.
- [25:14]
D
One of the interesting things. I'm sorry. One of the interesting things that after we filed the first suit is that it actually caused many Harvest veterans, refugees I might call them, or dissidents, to get in touch with us because they felt we were doing a public service and that the kinds of abuses that we're talking about, of course this was the most. The most terrible kind. But for them, it fit into a pattern of what was happening at Harvest, where, you know, and it does in other institutions, religious institutions, political, other things where there is a central main male figure that everyone kind of bows down to. Someone said, use the analogy. Well, just think if, you know, you were working at Apple and Steve Jobs got mad at you. Well, that's bad. But of course, if someone gets mad at you at Harvest, it's not just perhaps your church, it's your family. Network. It's salvation. It's your entire mental universe in some sense. And there have been other. They've had other scandals or mini scandals. They've had ministers having affairs with other employees and who've been bought off. There was one who got a $4 million payout after multiple affairs with women at the church who are connected inside. They've run other programs that have had difficult problems. And sweeping things under the carpet is the mode, is the modus vivendi. It's not aeration and apology. And this. We've seen that the way they've handled hazard is really part and parcel of the way that they do it. And I think it's the way that this kind of institution tends to do things. It's just sort of baked into the power structure where it's not easy to make complaints. If you make too many complaints, you're out. It's completely hierarchical. It's the Moses model, as they call it, of governance, where there's one person at the top who decides. The board of governors is not really a powerful influence. They're there to do the bidding of Greg Laurie. And, you know, he's been around a long time and very successful. And it's difficult to say, hey, you're doing the wrong thing now.
- [27:46]
C
It's interesting when we filed the lawsuit, shortly thereafter, the. We filed 23, and then we consolidated them, but Charlie Kirk was murdered. And we had somebody at the White House tell us, and of course, we only know this from hearsay, but that apparently Greg Laurie just assumed he'd be running. He'd be doing the main eulogy, he'd be running the service after, you know, for Charlie Kirk. And apparently somebody went to Trump, and Trump said, I already have an Epstein problem. I don't need another one. He's not coming. And sure enough, he was not present.
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D
He was present. He just wasn't. He just didn't give the main.
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B
He was on stage. He didn't speak.
- [28:23]
C
Yeah, he wasn't on. He wasn't.
- [28:25]
B
Maybe he attended. Maybe he was one of the stadium, but he wasn't on the platform. It was. I think Rob McCoy spoke and many others. Yeah. Also I will say on my end, as. As. As just someone who follows this stuff. It is so on brand for megachurch pastors to assume they're gonna be the one in the limelight, you know, during a time like that. That's just. That is just a chef's kiss. Of course, if that hearsay is correct, you know, I'm not surprised because we have Tracked so many different megachurch pastors, you know, a Greg Laurie type with the same structure and the assumptions that go to their head about how important they are and about how, you know, the souls of millions of people are literally hanging in the balance. This, what, what you described reminds me of something completely separate from this. Entirely. A couple years ago, Ravi Zacharias, a very famous apologist in the evangelical space, a woman came forward accusing him of, of all kinds of, you know, extort, extortion and having an affair. And he denied it and people got around him and essentially cast her out. And then when he died, it came to light that he was saing women in massage parlor he owned all around the world. And something very common that he would say to these women is that, you know, don't come forward because think about all the souls that hang in the balance if my ministry stops. And he would say that, that, that, you know, this was his reward for being faithful to God. And some of the, the things that you mentioned earlier about Paul and, and that kind of logic of, you know, you know, I deserve this, this is what God would want. There is certainly a pattern of that kind of language that we've seen even in the bigger, you know, evangelical world when it comes to men who are abusers.
- [30:05]
C
Yeah.
- [30:05]
A
Wow.
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C
And certainly what we've heard since we filed the lawsuit, people have reached out to us and they have lots of stories of being in fear of the church being in fear of being cast out, of telling the truth. They say all around the church there are video cameras. People see everything, they watch everything. They're really on terrible. They're nervous, they're afraid to say anything. And even so, we've had many, many people reach out saying, no, subpoena us. You know, we're going to be there for you as soon as this thing goes forward in trial.
- [30:42]
E
Hey everyone, Melinda Hale here, executive director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tme we creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion and living out the teachings of Jesus in real tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform TNE Connect, we offer free educational resources, additional content and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt seen or, or been challenged to grow head over to thenewevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement.
- [31:29]
F
My name is Tom, I live in the San Francisco Bay area and I donate to the New Evangelicals. The Pentecostal Christian fundamentalism of my childhood insisted that I could not be both gay and Christian. Who for over a year and a half I participated in an ex gay live in program that tried to rid me of my gayness. I left the group as a gay man and rejected my Christianity. But in time, I could no more stop being Christian than I could stop being gay. The Jesus heart drew me back to Christian story and symbol. Embarrassingly, not until my mid-40s did the blatant obviousness of it all speak to my heart as if from a burning bush. I get to decide if I'm a follower of Jesus. No one else gets to decide that. For me. That realization was my true born again experience. The New Evangelicals welcomes all seekers and they welcome questions. The fundamentalist idolatry of right belief and its arrogant adherence to a creed frozen in time eclipse the true Christian message. I support the New Evangelicals because they understand that.
- [32:58]
B
So what is. Yeah, like what is the next step? This is obviously a civil lawsuit. It's not criminal. Can you explain the difference? Just so me and the audience understand because I often get them confused and then where are you in the process and what is next?
- [33:12]
D
A criminal lawsuit is brought by the state. The police will based on charges from the district attorney on the state level or the U.S. attorney on the federal level because you violated a criminal law. I mean it could be conceivable, I think that Paul Habsgart could be subjected to criminal charges. But that's, you know, things take took place in Romania. It's complicated. Lots of times police departments don't want to take on very old cases based in foreign countries. It's, you know, they have other things to do with their money.
- [33:48]
C
Except there has been abuse by hav's guard course in California. So it has that piece and depending on who the prosecutor is, either look at it, it could bring in other members of Harvest for aiding and abetting, for conspiracy, for, you know, repeal violations. Who knows if this could go sex trafficking. So there's a lot of opportunity that could really capture Greg Laurie into a criminal.
- [34:10]
A
Did the chances go up of criminal charges if there's more public outcry and this gets more.
- [34:16]
D
No, it's not up to us completely. I mean it's completely beside us and Prosecutors might have lots of reasons to do it or not to do it. And we can't say that any individual would be subject to criminal charges. Paul Hodgard is the one who seems quite obvious here, but.
- [34:34]
A
Right.
- [34:35]
D
It's not for us to decide. But that's the power of the civil system. If there's somebody willing to be a plaintiff and we have laws that are against what they did happen to them, we can bring the lawsuit or they can bring the lawsuit, and we can do it on their behalf. And so this is a civil lawsuit where we are seeking damages, money damages, essentially the payment of money, which is the only system, the only thing that the legal system can fundamentally do for people who have been wronged. Whether you've been in a car accident or you've had, you know, a scalpel left in your stomach by the doctor, the way this gets compensated is by payment of money. So we're suing the search and the named individuals for damages. The current posture of the case is that Harvest is resisting, not completely surprisingly, they are trying to bring a motion that says this case should be heard in Romania and not in the United States. And if that happens, essentially, the case will probably come to an end because the statute of limitations, which is a cutoff arbitrary by timing of the law for when the case can happen is different in Romania than in California. And most of our plaintiffs would not be able to bring a case. And there's all sorts of other differences in the Romanian system. We think it's a bogus argument, honestly, but it's up for a judge to decide. After that, they will. They'll move to dismiss the case. A motion dismiss is saying even if all the facts that you say in your complaint are true, there is no law that will give you the relief that you seek. So you say that, you know, for instance, I don't know what their arguments will be that we failed to supervise him properly. Well, there's no indication in your papers that we failed to supervise him properly just because of what happened there. There'll be technical legal arguments. Then if we get over that, discovery opens up, they'll need to give us documents. If any continue to exist, we'll need to give them documents. We get to have depositions where each other's witnesses get examined, and then we go to trial. And all that will take years, if it's going to get to trial. Wow.
- [36:55]
B
So this is the very beginning of what's going to be a very long journey.
- [36:59]
D
It could be they could settle. I mean, often child sex abuse or child essay cases will settle after the motion to dismiss because the organization really does not like having all its dirty laundry paraded day after day after day in the newspapers, which is what inevitably happens. It's not a good look. They know that they might lose really big, the possibility of trouble. Damages exists in this case because of the nature of what happened. So, you know, I would think settling would be a good idea, but they don't feel that it is at this stage.
- [37:40]
C
I mean, we actually thought they would settle this case when we got involved in negotiations with them. We have no desire to tear down the church. That's not our agenda. That's not what we want to do. We wish them well, we wish them their good works to continue, the bad works we want to stop. And we went and spoke to them over a couple of years about this, hoping we could come to some sort of arrangement where they could continue to do their good works. We could get justice for these kids. But justice, as Jeff has said, the currency of justice in America is money. Yeah, that's it. And these cases, trafficking cases, now, people are more alert to them. But, you know, we're arguing that decisions are made in California that has. Guard was sent from California. He's back in California, Lori's in California. Everything happened. Money was sent by California. Everything was decided in California. So for us, it's hard to imagine that they're going to say, a judge would say this case is a Romanian case, but why? Why would it be a Romanian case? So, you know, we're going to have that argument. But at the end of the day, you know, you have to decide do you want to fight or not? Given what we know now, having filed the suits, all of the terrible stuff going on at Harvest now that we're hearing about from Jeff said, the refugees. But there are so many people who have reached out to us with horrific stories. I don't, you know, if I were Greg Laurie, he's my age, and he must be thinking of his legacy. Why would you want to ruin everything by having this come out? And they. They're threatening people. Now, we've been told, you know, they're putting people in fear so not to say anything. We're going to sue you. We're going to come after you. They're really very angry and trying to be very, very tough. But that said, once we get into court, we subpoena people, they tell the truth, it's going to be a sheer destruction of what Greg Laurie has created and what these other people have created. Why would you risk that. So we would hope that they'd settle also, because if they care about these kids who are now in their young 30s, you know, why aren't they in Romania trying to find the rest of the orphans to see? Can we, can we, you know, what can we do? How can we be Christian? What can we actually do to live our principles? You know, we're on the ground, we're helping these kids. We're doing what we can, but we're doing their work in a way. I mean, that's not technically what lawyers should be doing, but we're trying to be the best kind of lawyers we can be. We're advocating for them, but they put this pain to these kids to go on and on. You know, they can barely survive. They need therapy, they need all sorts of stuff, and it just goes on. A cold heart. When Greg Laurie hears this, you know, he doesn't care. He walks out of the room. It doesn't seem to concern him. You know, meanwhile, he's got his very fancy house in Riverside, another house in Hawaii. He's got a very expensive car, Valley. He's got all. He's got a very high life. And, you know, I don't know where the translation of faith comes into reality. What does it mean to be a Christian, to be a minister, if you let this happen and you haven't done anything now to clean it up, when you're not demonstrating care, concern and apology? You know, forgiveness is big, allegedly, in the Christian faith, but where is that here, you know?
- [40:48]
A
Yeah.
- [40:51]
B
You know, I'm not sure how familiar you familiar you two are with. With the American Evangelical Church industrial complex until this case. Is that your cat April? Do you just crash this interview, about to make a real important point and she has to stop in, take the limelight? No, it's fine. But, you know, I'm not sure how familiar you two are with the Evangelical church industrial complex, but as people who come out of that world, who have been part of that world, who have been tracking that world, especially as it relates to Christian nationalism, this story, as horrific and terrible as it is, is unfortunately for me, these allegations are not surprising at all. I mean, they are just not. They are. I wish I could say, wow, what an anomaly this is, but we just have so much evidence of a church culture that always prioritizes, usually the white male leader and the quote unquote ministry of the church that is saving souls from the pit of hell at the expense of what is really a body, a mountain of bodies behind the bus of that given institution. And there just seems to be so many patterns here. Where April and I have asked ourselves as commentators, at what point do people just say this. This particular experiment and variation of church culture is unredeemable? You know, we have to think about a different way of organizing as a church, because to your point, Ann, the church is supposed to be about love and justice and beauty and taking care of the marginalized and taking care of the vulnerable and standing up to the oppressor. Right. And standing up for the. And helping the oppressed. And there are too many examples where this is totally inverted. And victims are the ones who are demonized and who are discarded and the victimizers end up with a lot of money. They're hailed as a hero, and, you know, they're sent on their merry way to the next place to continue their evil. And, you know, I really appreciate you two taking this case on and doing all this, and I can't imagine the mental health toll, just the, you know, the reality of what's going on. But it's. I would say this is the work of Christ, frankly. This is what Christ would be doing if he was alive here today, advocating for what can only be described as a hell on earth for children now turned adults in Romania who were orphans.
- [43:10]
D
I can tell you that Harvest's lawyers do not view us in that fashion.
- [43:15]
B
No way. Are you kidding me? I never have guessed. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. If folks want to either follow this or if they can, is public attention helpful in this situation? Or is it more about, hey, we're doing our job. Let you know when we're ready. Like, how can people who are listening to this and ourselves. How can we continue to support you in this case?
- [43:40]
C
Oh, public attention is so important. You know, it validates these kids. You know, I mean, most of them feel we're just brown kids and we mean nothing. And nope, nobody gives a care for us at all. And we're there on the ground. We go to their families. They. The poverty is intense for most of them, and the kindness. They're all taking care of each other. I mean, I took them for meals once. They were taking. Can we have an extra McDonald's meal so I can bring that home for my kid? You know, kind of thing. They're that, you know, at the edge of life. And any focus on this. People need to be educated that this is what this church has allowed to have happen. They're culpable for this. They're responsible, you know, and. And that's really important that people understand what their ministry is doing and why they're doing it, and they need to stop it. I would hope they'd want to do.
- [44:33]
B
Yeah,
- [44:35]
D
I'm sorry. It's interesting when we've been doing work in this area, working sometimes other kinds of human rights litigation, and sometimes it hits in a way. We brought a lawsuit involving sexual harassment at a university against the University of Rochester 2017, which just happened to hit the MeToo wave. And two of our plaintiffs became Time magazine People of the Year, and stories went all over the world. And the National Academy of Sciences changed its rules about the way graduate work should be supervised at universities because of it. And this became a snowball of publicity that we really couldn't stop had we wanted to. When we brought this suit against Harvest was back in September, we actually thought it might have a similar galvanizing effect because from our experience in this field, the facts here are particularly bad and kind of sad and gruesome and the kind of thing that gets people's attention. But it really. There have been so many scandals of this sort that people have become inured to them in a certain way. You can see this. We've done CSA cases for 20 years in the UK and in the US and the threshold of public interest, what you have to do to get onto the front pages or equivalent of what you have to be reporting is getting higher and higher. So I think, and it means the institutions feel sometimes that they can get away with it, that they just don't have to worry. And in this current news climate where everybody's yelling at each other and, you know, everybody's always angry, it's sad that something that I think is genuinely worthy of attention to kind of gets muted. So I think it's very important for the case, for the whole pushing back against the culture that permits this, not just in evangelical churches, but in other powerful institutions, that people do see it and do follow it and do, you know, tell their neighbors to be alert to it, I think it's the only way we can help fight up, fight back against it.
- [47:07]
C
And the one thing to add on that we felt is that whether you're a MAGA person, a Tucker Carlson person, you're a, you know, antifa person, it doesn't matter who you are. Maybe one thing in American society, the one thing that everybody should be able to rally around is child sexual abuse. And this is not low grade. I just kissed your cheek. This is the most horrific level, that you go to jail your whole life and in some of staged, you, you'd go to the death penalty. I mean, this is. You have ruined these people's lives. You can't get it back. It has ruined everything. You've done it deliberately. Because this guard has got such an intense sexual appetite for power and, you know, for his spread, his. His need to dominate, this is. This was him. And I think we have really hoped that in a courtroom. I've been surprised at wanting to argue this because, you know, this is not. If we were just representing women, you know, it would be a different equation. And we do a lot of cases where we represent women. And of course, it's really hard to get a conviction for rape in with women. You just. It's really, really tough. But here, you know, these are children, and there are so many of them. So it's not like this one or two. We're just one or two. I'm sure we would have made the calculation. We probably couldn't maybe, you know, risk taking this because it's really expensive to bring these cases. But given the volumes of kids and how many more are still out there.
- [48:30]
B
Yeah.
- [48:30]
C
You know, it seems to us that this has got to be something that people will rally around everybody. No matter what your political views, how old you are, what your sexual are, it doesn't matter. It's bad. You can't go after kids.
- [48:44]
A
Yeah. Have you. Have you noticed. I know there. There was an article. I don't. Was it NBC? I don't remember who it was. Um, has there been any sort. Like, has the church experienced any sort of negative impact since this all came out? Like, if people left the church that. That you're aware of at all, or has it just kind of been business as usual?
- [49:04]
D
We. We don't know. We hear some reports that, you know, maybe contributions are down. Things are. People are restive. They've had to make a few comments to employees and others to try to, you know, bolster the troops and. And cast doubt upon us. There's signs that they're worried about the PR hit that they're taking, but it's. We don't know.
- [49:32]
A
Okay, that's. And that's fair. I don't know how you would know. I just. I didn't know if. I mean, I would. I would imagine, like Gateway, for instance, when the stuff came out with Robert and Morris, I know they started bleeding congregants, you know, and that big time. I mean, that was also terrible. So I just. I just don't know how many people are aware of it because I've heard very little, and maybe just the Chaos of the current news cycle, as you mentioned, is the reason. But hopefully the word will get out more and they'll be. There will be more of a public outcry over this because, I mean, this is. I feel like if people knew, they would have to care.
- [50:12]
B
Yeah, it's pretty unfathomable, honestly. It's just. And you're right, just to kind of end on a. On a coalition building note. You know, I, you know, one of the things that April and I talked about was it was really nice to see mtg, Marjorie Taylor Greene and other. I think it was Massie, you know, get behind other lawmakers on the other side of the aisle to say Trump and these survivors need to be held accountable and the survivors need to be taken care of, you know, and so I do hope that people out there listening who might have different views than April and I can all shake hands and say, any place, any person, any institution, doesn't matter if it's Christian or not, that is protecting predators who are abusing children should be a very easy low bar to say, we all agree that we should clear this. This is like, this is very bare bones. It's very. Just common humanity. And I think that maybe this could be a way of coalition building, even broadly, even in the church culture of, like, look, even evangelical churches. I know that there are a lot of churches doing good work out there. So do yourselves a favor and get on the right side of this to show people that you're a safe place and that you're not like, you know, a place like Harvest with these allegations. You know, I think that's really important.
- [51:23]
C
Yeah, we sure agree with you.
- [51:25]
D
Absolutely.
- [51:26]
C
Yeah.
- [51:27]
A
Thank you both for coming on to this show and honestly, just for taking on this case. Like, I even. Just from what you said today, I know the depths of the horrors go so much deeper than what we've even discussed today, and the heavy toll that that must take to read about and know and to talk to these victims and survivors and to sit with that trauma, too. Like, I just. I. Thank you for your work. That's not an easy job to do, for sure.
- [51:58]
C
Thank you. I mean, we've actually had to offer therapy services to our legal staff because when they're on the ground, the stories are they leave and they cry. They just. And they have. They're haunted by it. So.
- [52:10]
D
But I. I have to say, actually, I consider it a privilege and an honor to know these people and to try to help them. It is sometimes hard, but it's you. I. I seldom get up in the morning thinking this is not worth trying to do. And I. I'm. It's. It's an honor when people entrust us with these most difficult periods of their lives to see if we can help.
- [52:37]
B
Yeah.
- [52:38]
A
Is there. Did you already ask? I can't. I don't know if we discussed it, but could. Is there a place people can follow the case? Like, do you have a website or social media or anything like that?
- [52:49]
D
We have a. We have a website. You can. They can follow Ann on social media, and we have a website, and it has a. In the. In the media section where this case is kept up to date.
- [53:03]
B
What is that website?
- [53:05]
C
Is our law firm McAllister all of ours. And you'll find it there.
- [53:09]
B
Okay.
- [53:09]
C
You Google it, it will come up also.
- [53:14]
B
Yeah, that'd be good. Thank you both for making time. We are cheering you on. Keep us posted on how we can continue to help. And we wish you both the best.
- [53:22]
C
Thank you very much. Thank you for the work you're doing. It's really important, and we're very grateful. And all of the kids in Romania are deeply grateful to. Thank you.
- [53:31]
B
Absolutely. Wow. I don't know what to say, April. Honestly, I had to hold back tears. I was pretty. I don't know. I'm kind of speechless, honestly. And also I'm like. You know, it's one of those, like, shock but not surprised moments where it's like, wow, I am truly shocked at the level of what took place with. With people on staff and Greg, Laurie being aware about it at some point. And also this seems to be too common of an example of what happens in these church spaces.
- [54:04]
A
Yeah. I also am speechless. I definitely teared up. Just the fact that there would be people that could be so. Just awful.
- [54:16]
B
I'm a parent. It's unfathomable. It's one of the few things. I'm very much committed to nonviolence. And there's one of the. There's a few exceptions, and that is one of them. You know, it just. It gets me so enraged where it's like, how can you be that much of a devil? You know, that much of just an evil human being to especially children who are innocent and are just. Especially children who are orphans and who are trusting someone who claims to be a follower of Jesus. Anyway. We all know. We're all thinking it, but my God. Yeah.
- [54:46]
A
Friends, you know, there's justice that comes from this. And I kept thinking, too. I'm wondering if just with all the Epstein talk, which is also a very important case to highlight and to call out. But I don't want to be desensitized to these terrible things that are happening to children.
- [55:07]
B
Right.
- [55:08]
A
You know, like, I just. I just. I don't ever want to be desensitized to that. I want to always be someone that cares.
- [55:14]
B
Yeah.
- [55:15]
A
And then when faced with these things, we can have this show and talk about it. And I really hope that this gets a ton of attention.
- [55:25]
B
A ton. It needs to. I mean, there has to be justice here. And I think Greg Laurie owes people a lot of answers, especially considering that he does humongous crusades. He speaks in front of millions of people. He's spoken at passion. He's everywhere right now. He's a massive public figure. And I think that he owes people some real truthful answers and needs to take some ownership of what's going on here. So, you know, friends, we appreciate you listening. I know that this episode for many of you had to be very triggering and very difficult to stomach and get through. But I'm with you, April. Like, as much as that pains me, I don't want to ever get numb, because it's not. These aren't just numbers. They're not just random kids. They're human beings. Right. Made in the image of God. And their lives have been permanently affected by people claiming to be the hands and feet of Jesus, which is just egregious. So, yeah, friends, keep it. Keep in touch. We will keep you posted as things develop. In this case, please make sure to. You can Google it. If you google Greg Laurie lawsuit, it will come right up. Or you can go to the website that was said earlier to follow it. And of course, if you would be so kind to share this story on your social media, you can share this episode or you could just share the lawsuit. We don't care. It's not about clicks and views for us. In cases like this, just getting the word out and raising some righteous indignation would go a long way to let people know that, hey, this is happening and it needs to be brought to the world's attention. So I think that's all I got. Anything else, April?
- [56:47]
C
No, just.
- [56:48]
A
We'll be back live on Thursday at 12pm Eastern.
- [56:52]
B
Sounds good. Well, I'm Tim Whitaker.
- [56:54]
A
And I'm April Lajoy.
- [56:55]
B
See you later.
- [56:56]
A
Bye.