← The Tim & April Show
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- [00:00]
April
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- [00:03]
Tim
Right?
- [00:03]
April
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- [00:30]
Tim
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- [00:35]
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- [00:37]
Tim
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- [00:43]
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- [00:45]
Tim
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- [01:01]
April
This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling. Today you're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hello, everybody. Welcome.
- [01:42]
Tim
Hi.
- [01:43]
April
To the Tim and April Show. I am April.
- [01:47]
Tim
I'm Tim. Sorry, we're off timing. Our timing is off today. My timing is off. Hi, April.
- [01:54]
April
Tim Whitaker, sometimes called Timothy Chalamet. For funsies.
- [02:01]
Tim
Yeah, for fun. Still don't know who he is, but apparently he's a celebrity.
- [02:06]
April
How do you still not know? Did I not explain him to you?
- [02:10]
Tim
April, we're talking about Christian nationalism today, okay? My days are busy reading about things that are not pleasant. I don't have time for wonderful people like Timothy Chalamet. Wait, was that the guy in the Bob Dylan movie?
- [02:24]
April
Yes.
- [02:25]
Tim
Okay, there you go.
- [02:27]
April
Yeah. And to be fair, it's actually pronounced just regular Timothy. Oh, but it looks like Timothy because it's spelled with like two E's.
- [02:37]
Tim
That's funny.
- [02:39]
April
But yeah. Anyway, I don't know, in my head, whenever you call, it's like Timothy a Charlemagne, which Adam Sandler actually Started doing that at the Golden Globe. Was it the Golden Globes this past year? Literally went Timothy Charlemagne. I was like, ah, I did it first. I did it before Adam Sandler.
- [02:59]
Tim
So you're a trend setter.
- [03:01]
April
Look at me. Look at me. All right, well, speaking of Christian nationalism.
- [03:08]
Tim
And trendsetters, Just kidding.
- [03:11]
April
There's. I don't. As far as I know, Timothy Shalam is not a Christian nationalist. So this episode is going to continue our deep dives on something that deals with Christian nationalism or evangelicalism in general. And so today we thought we would do a deep dive. We talked about going into some more details on certain Christian nationalist players that are, you know, either historically or currently. And there is probably no one bigger in the current Christian nationalism movement than Paula White.
- [03:52]
Tim
I would agree. Especially in terms of just raw influence. I mean, she is, she's like, she's like the first lady of Christian nationalism because she is the whole reason that Trump is where he is today on the political scene. Literally, she is the gateway into Trump getting into politics. She's known Trump for over 20 years and been his personal pastor for a long time. And even though April, people like you and me and maybe a lot of people in the audience know who she is, the general American population, even though she has her own office now in the White House, the faith office, they don't really know much about her, even though she's the whole reason that we're here today, arguably. So I think it's important that if we're gonna do these deep dives, we start with. With Paula White.
- [04:40]
April
Yeah. And obviously there's other players that are just as influential. But Paula White is currently running the faith office in the Trump administration. She was also a spiritual advisor to Trump in his first term. And we'll get into more of that. But yeah, so we thought Paula White. Next week we're going to do more deep dive on like Seven Mountain Mandate specifically. So we'll get to that. But today we're going to talk about Paula White. So do you want to pull up a picture for those who don't know? This is Paula White. She has been in ministry for decades. I mean, I remember growing up and she was a household name when I was in high school, at least was probably when I first heard about her. So, like mid 2000s, I actually went to her church in Tampa, Florida, when it was called Without Walls International Church, when she was married to her second husband, Randy White. So they were pastoring that church together. Huge church. I think at their peak, they claim to have 20,000 members.
- [05:46]
Tim
Wow.
- [05:46]
April
And it was a mostly predominantly black church. Like most of the people in attendance were black, despite both her and her husband being white. And she actually had a lot of influence for a long time in the black community. She was on bet. TD Jakes was kind of one of the first people to give her a big start because he had her speak at his Woman Thou Art Loosed conference. When was that?
- [06:11]
Tim
What's it called?
- [06:11]
April
I'm sorry, do you don't remember that?
- [06:14]
Tim
Well, you and I grew up on like different sides of the tracks of evangelicalism. So while you're, you know, for you, Paula White was like a superstar. For me, John MacArthur was a superstar. Like, that's, that's the, that's the difference of.
- [06:28]
April
That's so yeah, John MacArthur was not, I mean, I knew of him, but he was, we were not fans of Calvinists. You know, we thought Calvinists were silly.
- [06:38]
Tim
Yeah. I mean, I grew up in, you know, Mark Driscoll was a big name. Matt Chandler was a big name. John MacArthur, John Piper. These were the, these were of course the men. Because in my, on my side of things, women couldn't, you know, be spiritual leaders or pastors. So that's, that those were the names I was growing up with. So for, for you to say that she was like a household name where, where you grew up to me is like, wow, that, that's funny because I, I, I only only discovered her recently with researching Christian nationalism and seeing her rise with Trump.
- [07:09]
April
Yeah, no, she was, she was a big deal because so I was obviously raised charismatic and Pentecostal and so she's bigger in those circles because she is Pentecostal. And I do think Pentecostal churches in general feel a little bit more like, like black churches. Like I feel like a Baptist black church has a similar vibe to white Pentecostal churches as far as just like the music and the energy and the dancing and the length of the services. They're, they're a little more similar. So you, So a Pentecostal church would be, I think more likely to be more diverse. But so Paula White, let's just go back. I'm gonna give you some background information on her, some of her theological beliefs, how she kind of rose to be as well known as she is. And then Tim, you're, you can talk about how she got connected with Trump. So she was born in Mississippi, she was raised in Maryland following her mom's marriage to a two star admiral in the Navy. One of what I think one reason a lot of people Connected with her is she does have a pretty tragic childhood upbringing. It was marred by child abuse, and her dad died by suicide when she was young. So she. That's always been part of her testimony. When she was 18. So in 1984 was when she converted to Christianity. So she was not raised necessarily in a Christian home. She became. She talks about her conversion when she was 18. She also got married to her first husband as a teenager, and then they had their first and her only child a year after she converted. One thing that she said, she was also converted in a Church of God church. And that's important because that's a Pentecostal denomination. Church of God headquarters are in Cleveland, Tennessee, which is where I was from or where I lived before we moved to Lexington. And so Church of God is basically like the east coast northern version of Assemblies of God. They're very similar in theological beliefs.
- [09:25]
Tim
So they're gonna believe in speaking in tongues, in prophecy, miraculous healing. Things like that are kind of key staples. Right. Yeah.
- [09:33]
April
Yes. I will say, too, typically Pentecostal churches, the charismatic churches, are more women friendly. These people believe in women prophets, women pastors. So they're generally more egalitarian in that. And so it's easier for a woman to rise the ranks in Pentecostal charismatic circles than more like Calvinist and like, you know, complementary and Baptist circles. So according to the Gospel Coalition, and this is something she's talked about a lot. Shortly after she got saved when she was 18, she claims that the Lord gave her a vision. This is her quote. She said, when I was just 18 years old and barely slaved, the Lord gave me a vision that every time I opened my mouth and declared the word of the Lord, there was a manifestation of his spirit where people were either healed, delivered, or saved. When I shut my mouth, mouth, they fell off into utter darkness. And God spoke to me and said, I called you to preach the gospel.
- [10:32]
Tim
Wow.
- [10:34]
April
So she has felt. Yeah, yeah. Like, from a very early age that her entire calling is to speak out.
- [10:43]
Tim
Very much like a Paul, Saul, Paul conversion moment that we read about, like, in scripture. Right. Where, like, you know, Saul's on the path, that road to Damascus. He has this moment with Jesus and his life gets changed. It feels very reminiscent of that hearing Paula White talk about, you know. Wow. Yeah. Interesting. So whenever she opened the mouth, she says when she opened her mouth and declared the word of the Lord, there was a manifestation of his spirit where people were either healed, delivered, or saved. It's intense.
- [11:15]
April
Yeah. But I will say this is a Very common belief in Pentecostal circles. When you like that phrase, like God doesn't qualify or God doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the called.
- [11:25]
Tim
Yeah.
- [11:25]
April
And. And so. And when I was raised in this world, we had this very. Everyone had a high calling on their life. Like, some people were called specifically into ministry. But even if you were called to just be, you know, a lay person, you were still called to spread the gospel. Like, so you have a very. It's. It's very high purpose, which is easy to get sucked into because, you know, you. You view yourself as God's warrior, as God's vessel, and that there's, like, no higher calling than feeling like you're literally doing work for God.
- [12:05]
Tim
What's interesting about this is that on the side of evangelicalism that I grew up on or in, it's a similar idea of like, yes, we're called to preach the gospel, but the words were totally different. Right. We would say we have to preach the word, we have to teach the B Bible, we have to be biblical. We have to, you know, save souls. We would never use language like manifestation or, you know, people being healed. That. That was completely not part of our vernacular, even though we also believed in winning souls and preaching the gospel and spreading the word. So, again, it's very interesting to hear you talk about it from your side of things. As we're both growing up in this evangelical world, but with such different language and beliefs that still flowed to, like, the same mainstream of preach the gospel, save souls, invite your friends out to these things. Because we don't want. We don't want them to burn in hell forever. Right. So that's a very interesting. I think it's important because I think a lot of people don't understand that evangelicalism is a very broad tent in a lot of ways. And you can live in that world and experience it very differently, with different people and different beliefs, but still having a lot of the same outcomes.
- [13:16]
April
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I. I believed the same thing that, you know, we believed in supernatural healing. We believed in miracles, deliverance of drug addiction, deliverance from demons. Like, I mean, exorcism is a big thing in this world, which we can talk about the harm. There's a lot of harm of believing.
- [13:36]
Tim
Sure.
- [13:36]
April
In that because, you know, suddenly everything's a demon. They can be very. We were very demon happy. You know, everything. Something was either from God or. And if it wasn't from God, it was probably a demon. Not a lot of middle ground.
- [13:49]
Tim
Right, Right. You're either for him or against him. Right? That's kind of the idea.
- [13:52]
April
Yeah.
- [13:53]
Tim
Yeah.
- [13:53]
April
Yeah. So. So Paula White, she goes on, she attends the National Bible College and Seminary, also in Maryland, but she did not graduate. But she was ordained by the school's founder, T.L. lowry. Do you know who that name.
- [14:06]
Tim
No, not at all.
- [14:07]
April
See, that was. He's also a household name for me. Growing up. He was another Pentecostal evangelist. He's a Pentecostal preacher. Evangelist and the founder of a seminary in. In Maryland.
- [14:17]
Tim
But.
- [14:17]
April
So she was ordained by him.
- [14:18]
Tim
Was Paul Washer a household name for you?
- [14:21]
April
No.
- [14:22]
Tim
Yeah. Okay. It's so funny. I just, I love. It's. It's funny comparing notes. I really. It's. It's interesting. Very illuminating. Yeah. I. To this. Until this moment, I've never heard of T.L. lowry.
- [14:35]
April
That's so wild. Yeah, my dad, my dad told stories about him.
- [14:39]
Tim
Wow.
- [14:40]
April
Anyway, yeah, that is so weird that, like, we could both be evangelical and be raised with similar, similar beliefs, but different. But our, like, my household names are different than your household names.
- [14:51]
Tim
Well, and I was taught that people like you were demonic. I mean, speaking in tongues.
- [14:55]
April
I was taught that people like you were demonic.
- [14:57]
Tim
No, no, we were. We were Bible believing biblical Christians. Okay. April, you were the ones who were.
- [15:03]
April
Twisting scripture and we were taught that you all didn't believe in the whole Bible because the Bible clearly talks about speaking in tongues. And y'all were like, yeah, no thanks.
- [15:17]
Tim
It's wild, man.
- [15:18]
April
I know.
- [15:20]
Tim
Yeah, the inviting. Exactly.
- [15:22]
April
Okay, so moving on. Paula White. So her first marriage when she was a teenager. She got pregnant the year after she converted to Christianity. So she was still married when she met her second husband, Randy White. And Randy White, this, this is a picture of both of them was also married and had three children. They ended up divorcing their spouses and they got married to each other in 1989. In 2001 or. Yeah. Shortly later, they founded Tampa Christian center, which would then become Without Walls International Church. That's the church that I, I went to in the 2000s. Also around 2001, Paula White started becoming really more well known in especially like more charismatic circles like on tbn. That's when she started her Paula White Today show, which is kind of a newsy Christian show. She would talk about everything she talks about. And I will say her messages are very. They're like charismatic Joel Osteen, very positive. You know, God, God can give you everything you ask for. God can give you a bigger house. God can give you A better job. God can give you a better, you know, relationship. God can restore your children to you, return the product, like. And it's very much a. It is very much prosperity gospel. I will say she denies promoting the prosperity gospel, but. But I will say. And so there's a fine line between like, straight up prosperity gospel and charismatic circles because they, they're very similar. Because I was also. I would have said we were not prosperity gospel people because. Because a lot of people in prosperity circles are all about getting rich. Not to say Paula White and charismatics are not, but we would have argued that are like naming and claiming it and, you know, speaking things in faith and claiming things in the name of God was because we could do more things with God blessing us. It's like a weird, twisted way of thinking it. It's like, well, no, we want this blessing because God wants us to have this blessing, because if we have this blessing, we can bless others and then our witness is better and then it actually helps the kingdom of God.
- [17:47]
Tim
Got it. That I understand what you're saying. That makes sense. Of course, I grew up not believing any of that. Again, total opposite, right? Almost like an attitude of. I'm not going to call it a poverty mentality, so to speak. I've heard that term before. I don't like it. But there was a very strong push against using God as a genie to get material riches in that sense. Of course, the great irony is that many people in the Calvinist space that I grew up in, like John MacArthur, are actually very, very, very, very, very wealthy. But they would, they wouldn't flash it as like, look, if you just pray these prayers or if you manifest this stuff or if you believe, if you have enough faith to name it and claim it, so to speak, God will bless you this way. So again, it's very interesting hearing you talk about how you grew up, because I grew up with none of that. But I totally get what you're saying and what it looks like, because Paula White is a good example of that. I mean, I think she's worth like $5 million now or more, you know, and very much, as we're going to discover soon, I would say, does preach a prosperity gospel attitude. Even if she, she did, she didn't grow up or start out that way in the charismatic space. Does that make sense?
- [18:54]
April
Yeah, no, that definitely makes sense. I'll also say too, like, my, like, my actual upbringing, like my parents and my grandfather. My grandfather was a pastor, but he was, he was a teenager during the Great Depression, like Grew up very poor. And he. There was never a prosperity type of person. Like, he, he was kind of more like, you know, the ministers of the gospel should be poor. Like, it's not our job to be wealthy and, and everything. And so. And my dad was a little bit more of a mix between the two. But because we were in these charismatic circles, we were adjacent to a lot of prosperity gospel, and we didn't necessarily call that out.
- [19:32]
Tim
That makes sense.
- [19:33]
April
You know, like.
- [19:33]
Tim
Yeah.
- [19:34]
April
So I don't know. It's. It's a weird thing. So. So Paula White, early 2000s, she starts Paula White today show. It. It airs on tbn. It shows up on bet. You know, we talked about her influence in African American black circles. Chidi Jakes, I told you. Oh, this is an interesting little tidbit that I found fascinating. Gospel Coalition wrote an article which I don't love Gospel Coalition, but it is interesting because people like the Gospel Coalition and your, like, Calvinist groups, like, think Paula White is a heretic, like, can't stand her. Ali Beth Stuckey has done multiple videos on how she can't stand Paula White.
- [20:13]
Tim
Right.
- [20:13]
April
So there's a. There's a lot of infighting with this. But Paula White has said that TD Jakes has been kind of a spiritual father to her. And for TD Jake's 50th birthday, according to Gospel Coalition, she sent him a black convertible Bentley as a present. Wow.
- [20:32]
Tim
That. So April, when I turned 50, you know, maybe a. I don't know, I.
- [20:39]
April
Could get you a Hot Wheels.
- [20:41]
Tim
Yeah, yeah. With the track that does the loop de loop. I want to be able to. I want to be able to have it do a loop. Yeah. Come on. Come on.
- [20:52]
April
Okay. So 2003, she. She starts getting more celebrity attention, like Tyra Banks, a bunch of other people. But this, this interest, this is really nothing to do with Christian nationalism. I just thought this was interesting. Shortly after Michael Jackson was charged with child molestation, she actually flew to his Neverland to provide spiritual support.
- [21:17]
Tim
Yep, yep.
- [21:18]
April
For him.
- [21:19]
Tim
Yep. So I think she was also a chaplain for the Yankees or some. Or like a spiritual advisor to players on the New York Yankees at one point. Like, she, again, she is going under the radar and like mainstream, I would argue even mainstream evangelicalism, because. And we're going to talk about. Talk about this in a few minutes. The independent charismatic world that Paul is coming from was always kind of seen as like a fringe kind of sect of the evangelical world. Like, you know, you're not, you're not seeing Paula White on some of these mainstream Christianity Todays or Gospel Coalition websites. But she's there. I mean, she's doing her thing and she is connected to. To fame and is flying around doing this stuff for sure. I think this is where she meets Trump as well. Right. I think she met him in like two. 2001, 2003, something like that. So it's interesting to see like this, this evangelical subculture that exists in the world that most people don't know about that is well connected to all different people that have a lot of wealth and power.
- [22:15]
April
Yeah, yeah, no, it's there. There's a lot of connection there. And I will say her message is like, when you watch her message, it's very more uplifting. Like you can do anything you set your mind to, as long as you have faith, as long as you're sending us money, as long as you're, you know, doing all of these things. So it's, it's less like hell and brimstone type preaching. So there's room for that, I guess, in more mainstream circles. But if you get to, like, the root of it and then her connections to nar, which is New Apostolic Reformation, which we'll get into, like, it's, it's very Christian nationalist. There's some very weird beliefs in here that aren't necessarily advertised. Let me get through her background and then we will move on to. To her beliefs. So from between 2007 and 2011, her church was. Church Without Walls was investigated by the Senate Finance Committee. And according to that report, they found that the salaries, they were well paid. Salaries for extended family members. They owned and operated a private jet and frequently chartered flights, including trips to the Cayman Islands and a boxing match in Las Vegas. They paid for down payments on an 8,000 square foot mansion in Tampa and a $3.5 million condo in Trump Tower in New York City. Wow. So they did find some things that were not, you know, good for church use of funds, but no action was taken.
- [23:41]
Tim
Your tie dollars at work?
- [23:43]
April
Yes. Yes. Her and Randy divorced in 2007. The church then filed for bankruptcy in 2014. But when they divorced, they tried to do it kind of amicably. That both would kind of still help with the church, but they would just be divorced. And so she started another church. In 2011-2019, she became the pastor of New Destiny Christian Church in Apopka, Florida, until she resigned. And then her son and his wife took over that church. And that's where they currently are, but it's now called City of Destiny. And Even though she's not the main pastor there, she's still a teaching pastor.
- [24:23]
Tim
Okay, makes sense.
- [24:24]
April
So we are pretty much caught up to where she is in her life. She's obviously the faith leader now. She is a pastor. She still has a show. She does often. She's. She's a televangelist. I do think it's interesting if you go to her website, that. Where she talks about her beliefs. It's very vague.
- [24:48]
Tim
Let me grab it.
- [24:49]
April
I don't know if you want to pull it up.
- [24:51]
Tim
Before we can, I mentioned one more thing about her life story that I think is important. She also is a survivor of sexual assault as well. That's part of her story, I think. I think that that's important to highlight because sometimes when we talk about people like Paula White, who I believe are. Is very problematic and does a lot of things that are very harmful, they're still human beings with their own stories. I think it's important to remember that, like, people, even folks that we disagree with or that we don't like or think that or think that are doing bad also have their own trauma and their own story and their own pains and, you know, parts of life that are not good. And so I think that that's important to also mention. And she talks about this openly as well. But she's had quite a tough upbringing as a child, like, you know, her father unaliving himself and just being a victim of sexual assault and just all those things. It does make sense why someone would. Would find a home in evangelicalism at age 18. Right. Given the factors of, like, just looking for hope, looking for healing. I think at its best, evangelicalism can be a really healthy place for people to find a way to move forward in their life. At its worst, they want to take over the country and turn us all into fundamentalist, militant Christians. But there is a spectrum here, and I think that's really important to highlight.
- [26:09]
April
Yeah, well, that's kind of why I brought up her childhood earlier, too, because her story, I think, is what made a lot of people relate to her. And she kind of became this success story of like, oh, my gosh, her childhood was so hard. And look what God did in her life. And look at the success that she has. And a lot of her thing is like, look what God did for me. God can do this for you also. So, yeah, and that's kind of the allure, right?
- [26:34]
Tim
Is like, it's like people see these leaders, and sometimes the stories that these leaders tell is true. Sometimes they're Not. But either way, the story is a powerful pull for other folks who can resonate to say, if I. If they can do it, I can do it too. The hard part and the tricky part about this is that sometimes what that person is selling is just not accurate, you know, either. By giving, you know, give us more money and God will bless you. That's where things get real dicey real quick.
- [26:59]
April
Yeah, yeah, totally. So if you go to her website and this is just something I think is important to note on any church website, you'll see something really vague like this. So she believes in the Trinity, which is that the, the Godhead is three in one. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I will say, though, in Pentecostal circles, we give more emphasis to the Holy Spirit than a lot of other, you know, denominations or sex. Obviously, she believes that the Bible is divinely inspired by God, salvation through belief in Jesus Christ. She believes in taking communion baptism as a symbol of your faith. The kingdom I thought was interesting. She says, we believe in the sovereign rule, reign and authority of God in the life of believers. We believe that the kingdom of God is within us and is manifest, manifested on earth as we faithfully obey Christ and his teachings. So that's not like overtly Christian nationalist, but that ties in really well with Dominion theology. She's saying it as like, we believe that God has a sovereign rule in our lives, but then that is within us and is manifested on earth. As we'll talk about next week, the Seven Mountain Mandate, there's also this belief that what God is doing in us as individuals, we need to be doing to the world.
- [28:17]
Tim
Right? And these, here's, here's what makes this statement so tricky, right? Because if you read this as a typical Christian, we believe in the sovereign rule, reign and authority of God and life of the believers. We believe that the kingdom of God is within us and is manifested on earth as we faithfully obey Christ and his teachings. How I would read that back in the day is like, great. We are representatives of Jesus on earth. We have to be the hands and feet of Jesus on earth. So let's follow his teachings and put them into action. Because when we love our neighbor, when we love our enemies, when we fight for the oppressed, you know, we bring, we can say metaphorically a glimpse of heaven on earth, right? What, what would it look like if all of the, the unjust parts of the world were made just. Again, that's not, though, what Paula White is really saying here as we're going to discover. And so the language might Sound for some people just fine. Like, I mean, in a way, April, I believe some of this stuff still. I believe that as a follower of Jesus, I do want to. I do want to follow the teachings of Jesus. I, you know, he has reign or authority in my life, so to speak. Right. But they have a very different meaning for those things. Meaning the practical outworking of, of manifesting the Kingdom look a lot more like right wing authoritarianism and a lot less like we're feeding the poor and we're fighting for systemic change.
- [29:39]
April
Yeah, absolutely. Can you go where it says about. Go to her mission on her website, because I want to highlight this too.
- [29:46]
Tim
Cool.
- [29:46]
April
Yeah, yeah. So she talks about the Great Commission. There's a. The last sentence in that first paragraph, it says, utilizing the Internet, television, radio, literature and public speaking as our primary vehicles of communication. So that's like the whole influence of the media, of Christian nationalism that we've talked about before. But her mission, that next paragraph I found interesting. My mission is to see the world come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. When God showed me a vision at an early age, all those who fell under the sound of my voice were saved, and all those who didn't fell into darkness. I am driven by the hope of Jesus Christ in the lives of people, the deliverance and freedom that is found in a relationship with God. I want to see families and relationships restored, hearts healed, souls saved, and sons and daughters built up to carry the mantle on this earth.
- [30:40]
Tim
I mean, that's a really bold thing to say. When God showed me a vision at an early age, all those who fell under the sound of my voice and all those who didn't fell into darkness. It's hard to know where Jesus starts. And Paul the White, it's like, who's doing the saving here? Wow, that's a, that's an intense thing to say.
- [31:01]
April
Yeah. And it's hard, you know, I don't know. I don't know what she actually believes in the, you know, in the depths of her heart. But if she genuinely believes that, like, she, she can justify an immense amount of harm because she'll just believe what she's thinking, what she's feeling is God.
- [31:22]
Tim
Yes.
- [31:23]
April
Which, yes, becomes very dangerous. And she's not the only one. There's a lot of people who feel that way about themselves, whether they're lying to themselves or lying to other people or whatever it is, like genuinely feel that.
- [31:35]
Tim
Yeah.
- [31:36]
April
When they feel like a thought, you know, like, and this is something that is a little dangerous in charismatic circles too, is that we put so much emphasis on the Holy Spirit, which you can't fact check with scripture.
- [31:49]
Tim
Right.
- [31:50]
April
You know, because it's like, I don't know how many, how many times I was in sermons where someone's like, well, God told me last night. And then they just say whatever comes to their minds and then. And you're also taught at the same time not to touch God's anointed. And so your pastors are these spiritual authorities over you, wherein like more Baptists and Calvinists circles like there, there's still, you know, a misuse of spirituality, but it's not as like, God gave me this vision. God told me to tell you this. God gave me a word for your life. Like, there have been people that lives have been absolutely ruined because some pastor gave them a quote unquote prophetic word that was complete nonsense.
- [32:31]
Tim
I had someone tell me that God told them we're going to get married one day. And I at the time believed it and not because I was happy about it. Like, I had a legit panic attack driving in the car and I was like, oh my God, if I, I, I can't see myself with this person at all. But if God told them, what do I do with that? Like, it literally I had a, a pit in my stomach. I was nauseous over it. So, Yeah, I mean, 100 agreed. I would say that. And this is tricky because I grew up in the beginning more in that Calvinist, John MacArthur kind of environment. Then eventually I found more charismatic spaces because they had, they had all the cool worship music and I wanted, I wanted to drum in cool spaces. So I did kind of switch a little bit, but still had this foundation of like the Bible and, you know, God's word and, and knowing truth in the gospel. I would say that pastors in, in, in the more of like the John MacArthur space, so to speak, you're more Calvinist space. They, they do the same thing, but they just appeal to the Bible. Right. So instead of saying God told me, they would say, well, the scriptures are actually clear and now you have to obey what the scriptures say, which is really code for obeying my authority. So they kind of get there a different way. But it is the same ingredient of high control. Right. The pastor is the shepherd of the flock. The pastor in your case, hears from God in a unique way that the congregation can't. In my case, the pastor has unique insight to the Bible and what it really says. And so we have to follow what our pastors say. So we are being biblical or, or so we're staying in the will of God. So again, you can hear friends, how it's the same idea. It just expressed in two very different ways. And I think that's really important as we kind of keep navigating this, because right now we're in more of the charismatic world with Paula White. But there's a whole other side of Christian nationalism that we'll unpack in future episodes that comes at it from that biblical authority, God's law approach.
- [34:27]
April
Yeah. And I will say, just as a total sidebar. Yeah, I mean, it's somewhat related, but the actual, the first thing that made me start to deconstruct and start like, re examining my beliefs, what were my Pentecostal beliefs? Because we were taught that as long as you have enough faith, God would answer your prayer. God would give you the healing or the miracle, whatever it was you were asking for. You just had to have enough faith. Like, basically we had the power to dictate what God did based on our prayer life, you know, how much we read scripture, you know, lots of things. So when my dad died of cancer, despite me believing God was going to heal him, like, I had no doubts that God was going to heal my dad. And when that didn't happen.
- [35:09]
Tim
Right.
- [35:10]
April
I immediately knew that belief wasn't true because I could not have had more faith and God didn't have that. God didn't answer our prayer. But the Pentecost, a lot of the Pentecostal Christians, like, in my circles, the way they responded was not, oh, wow. Yeah, I guess God just didn't answer your prayer. Like, you know, I don't know what that says. Like, I'm so sorry that we were met with like so many justifications and defenses for why this was not God's fault. Like some, you know, someone said, well, God didn't heal your dad because of sun, some unresolved sin in your family or because your dad was living outside of God's will because he was a pastor and he was supposed to be an evangelist. That was actually said. Or the, maybe the more frustrating of them all was saying, oh, no, God did heal your dad. He just gave him his ultimate healing in heaven. And really it's selfish of you to want to kept him here in so much pain. So there's all these like mental gymnastics inside of this that can keep people believing something that even when it doesn't prove true in their own life, they can dismiss it as well. It must have just been something wrong that I did.
- [36:25]
Tim
Yeah, yeah. No, that makes a Lot of sense.
- [36:32]
Tom
My name is Tom. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I donate to the New Evangelicals. The Pentecostal Christian fundamentalism of my childhood insisted that I could not be both gay and Christian. For over a year and a half, I participated in an ex gay live in program that tried to rid me of my gayness. I left the group as a gay man and rejected my Christianity. But in time, I could no more stop being Christian. Then I could stop being gay. The Jesus heart drew me back to Christian story and symbol. Embarrassingly, not until my mid-40s did the blatant obviousness of it all speak to my heart. As if from a burning bush. I get to decide if I'm a follower of Jesus. No one else gets to decide that. For me, that realization was my true born again experience. The New Evangelicals welcomes all seekers and they welcome questions. The fundamentalist idolatry of right belief and its arrogant adherence to a creed frozen in time eclipse the true Christian message. I support the New Evangelicals because they understand that.
- [37:59]
Tim
I think it's also worth noting that a lot of this charismatic space that we're talking about today draws from the book the Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Peel. I think is how you say his last name. Trump has cited him as a huge influence. And a lot of the book talks about how you can believe in yourself and in everything you do. Build new power and determination, develop the power to reach your goals, break the worry habit and achieve and achieve a relaxed life. Improve your personal and professional relationships, assume control over your circumstances. So this, this idea of the power of your mind and being, being able to control things around you, you can see the through line between that and then kind of laying on the God card and charismatic theology of prophecy and speaking in tongues and manifesting certain outcomes for your life, whether it's wealth or health or prosperity, et cetera. They're kind of symbiotic. And this is why Paula and Trump, I think, connect, or Paula White and Trump connected because Paula White was preaching a lot of this stuff for a long time and Trump was already primed with the power of positive thinking to look for. How do I kind of merge these two things of God and, you know, controlling my life circumstances? And that's how, that's how these two kind of hit it off. But I just think it's so fascinating.
- [39:13]
April
Yeah. Do you want to get into how she got connected with Trump and then we can play like, some clips.
- [39:19]
Tim
I do, but the first thing I, I think is important, I, I Do want to pull this up? And by the way, friends, a lot of the research that I pulled from this is from a really great book by a great scholar, Matthew Taylor, the Violent Take it by Force. This is a really, I think this is like the primer if you want to understand the charismatic side of Christian nationalism and what's happening. This book is a must read. Matthew's a friend of the show. We're trying to get him back on to do a deep dive on the new episodic Reformation and Seven Mountain Mandate. But I took a picture of this. This is page 18 from his book. He kind of. Is that better at all?
- [39:53]
April
I can read that.
- [39:54]
Tim
Okay, we can start with this then. That's fine. So this is like a. Well, I gotta back up so we can read the whole thing. So this is a four quadrant model of American Christianity that Matthew Taylor developed and he essentially breaks up the current landscape into denominations and non denominations and charismatic and not charismatic so on. Like it's an XY axis, right? So on the top left you have what he calls is like denominations that are not charismatic. So this is like your Southern Baptist Convention. They're classical evangelicals, they're well established. They have processes usually for different kinds of things. There could be, you know, there's, there's a board of directors or I'm sorry, a board of elders and there's. If you're of a denomination, there's a, a process for how things are done and then you have that, then you have the, the non charismatic but also the non denominational side of that. These might be churches like for example, Elevation worship. I'm not going to put them full charismatic, they're kind of in between, but they're also non denominational. So this, they're not going to have any denominational support. They're not going to be accountable to anything over, you know, over them and how they set things up. And of course the benefit of the non denominational route is that you don't have a lot of red tape. So you can build a system how you want and get things done pretty quickly as opposed to denominations that have processes and things take time and there's usually a lot of hands in the pot trying to navigate things, etc. You also have charismatic denominations. This is like Assemblies of God is probably the most well known charismatic denomination. Right. Again, they're interpretation. Yeah. And Church of God. Thank you. These are denominations, I think the AG is one of the biggest denominations in the world. They're huge in, in South America, the charismatic theology is exploding they have a huge missions outreach. They're giant ginormous, but they're also charismatic. And these are, again, charismatic. People believe in speaking in tongues. They believe in like an elevated Holy Spirit, a baptism of the Holy Spirit. April, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, but my understanding and being in the space, you know, those are some of the big differentiators between non charismatics and charismatics.
- [42:09]
April
Also, I went to Assemblies of God colleges.
- [42:12]
Tim
Oh, wait, you said what?
- [42:15]
April
I'm sorry, I went to two Assemblies of God.
- [42:18]
Tim
You went to two, not one two?
- [42:20]
April
Yep, I went to two. One of them was. Had so many rules. Like, we literally used to have a joke in our family. So my grandfather was an Assemblies of God preacher. Left the Assemblies of God for the red tape that you mentioned. And when we, So I, when I was born, we were non denominational, but a lot of the theology was still ag. But we used to have this saying, for all have sinned and fallen short of the Assemblies of God.
- [42:46]
Tim
Well, I mean, I think Bethel at one point was also Assemblies of God. So Bethel Church was part of that denomination. Again, they eventually peeled off, I think for the same reasons that you just said, the red tape, you know, all of the, the obstacles to get things done, maybe they were too far on certain issues, et cetera. So anyway, so going back to this X, y axis, right, so you have your non charismatic denominationals, you have your charismatic and denominational, then you have your non charismatic denominational. These are like your Bible churches, things like that. They're going to have more, more, more Calvinist or John MacArthur influence. But again, they're their own thing. They're not part of any denomination. And then you have this, this box on the bottom right hand side called charismatic, non denominational or independent charismatics. Okay? And this is, this is kind of like the wild west of evangelicalism. And for a long time, independent charismatics were not really seen as serious players in the evangelical landscape. All right, A lot of evangelical culture and like the publishing industry, things like that, they're really more of the classic evangelicals. Maybe some non denominational, non charismatics. And of course your ags are in there too. But the independent charismatics, these are more like, you know, you hear about, about the people in, in the south who, who do snake handling. This is where you're gonna find your independent charismatics. Again, not all independent charismatics believe that, but there's more of that kind of fringe extremism.
- [44:18]
April
These are like, these are like Robin Bullock, Cat Kerr, who's on the Elijah list a lot. And, and she, she talks heaven frequently and has seen God riding a dinosaur. I don't know, something like that. There was some dinosaur in one of her heavenly visits. So that's when you get like the, more like crazy visions and people are just saying, well, God showed me this and God told me that. And, and people just take it as the word of God.
- [44:47]
Tim
Yes, exactly. And again, it's very high. It's very high control in sense of the, the person in charge or whoever has, whoever has a word from God, usually the, the pastor, the prophet. It is the one who has the authority. It is this charismatic or independent charismatic world that the new apostolic Reformation comes out of. We're going to do a deeper dive on this. And Paul the White, I would say is adjacent. Adjacent. I wouldn't say that she is from the nar. However, the NAR kind of explodes with this belief that, hey, you know, their argument is that in the Bible there's a five fold ministry outline laid out and they pull from Ephesians where it talks about that God or the Holy Spirit gave some to be prophets, pastors, evangelists, teachers and apostles. Okay? It's called the apest. Apest model is what some people call it. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. I think everybody said pastors. But anyway, my point is that it's five of them. And the new episode Reformation says, hey, there have not been new apostles. Like what's up with that? Like, why aren't the apostles a thing anymore? And they essentially say that God has. God is doing a new thing with the church by giving us new apostles that have God's anointing to steer the future of Christianity in the world. This is what the NAR is doing ultimately. And Paula White is adjacent to this. She's seen as an apostle by many. And this world is highly unregulated. Okay? You're not going to find committees or boards or directors or checks and balances. You're going to find a cult of personality approach. So all of these, all these different apostles start popping up. The man behind this, his name is Peter Wagner and they start doing this thing internationally, by the way, they start building these networks of new apostolic Reformation churches that believe that these apostles, including Paula White, have a special anointing to do really powerful things. And I think it's important to recognize too that a big part of their theology is that there are spiritual strongholds in the world that they have to go to and rebuke and pray against in order to manifest God's kingdom on earth. So they see a very direct link between the physical world and the spiritual world. Some people in the, in the NAR, back in the, I think the 90s, actually went to Mount Everest to pray against a spiritual demonic stronghold that was there in hopes of like, of like releasing that area from demonic oppression. And I say this because the demonic oppression, praying in the spirit world, manifesting or saying things like, I declare that, you know, a hedge of protection around this person that comes from this world of charismatic theology that says our words are actually impacting something in the spirit world that will impact real life. So when they talk about spiritual forces of darkness, they think about it in spiritual terms, but with what, but with real world ties. So for a lot of people in this space, Democrats, or demon crats. Right. Are under demonic oppression or are being used by Satan. And so they have an obligation to war in the spirit to try and stop the demon crats from getting their will done in politics or in society. That's how this world functions. And I think that's, that's an important primer for, for what we're getting into. Okay, does that make sense so far? I hope it does. But again, we'll do a deeper dive.
- [48:15]
April
Do you remember too, it was around, I think it was May of last year, Greg Locke was appointed an apostle.
- [48:23]
Tim
Yes.
- [48:24]
April
And he is someone who I think came from, was Baptist, who is who in the last few years has shifted more, you know, free for all Pentecostal because he started talking about casting out demons and, and going more. Not Baptists. You don't hear Baptists talking about that.
- [48:41]
Tim
No, you definitely don't. So. So Paula White has been Trump's pastor for at least 20 years. Trump called her out of the blue in 2002 to express his appreciation for her sermons, especially the series called the Value of Riches. And, and Paula White views Trump as an assignment from God. She says that she's been praying over him daily for a long time since they met. And the interesting part is that Trump was going to run for president in 2012, but Paula White and Ralph Reed, who is a major player in the former Moral Majority evangelical space, both advised against it. So I think that that's important to note. Trump had his eyes set on politics for quite some time, and Paula White was kind of advising him on this. So when 2016 came around, that was when White and, you know, others were like, yes, you should do this. But there, there was a problem because Paula White, again, was an independent charismatic. She was not part of the in crowd of the typical evangelical gatekeeper world that. That had the power to approve presidential candidates, right? So, Remember, this is 2016, 2015. The presidential primaries are happening. Trump is one among many, and many of your more Christianity Today, you know, Russell Moore type of evangelicals, your. The Gospel Coalition types, they're looking at Ted Cruz, they're looking at Marco Rubio, they're looking at Ben Carson. For them, Trump is really an outlier. And I think, you know, again, important distinction because Paula White was, first off, she was a woman pastor, number one. Number two, she preached a borderline prosperity gospel, number three, she was part of this independent charismatic world. So she was already on the outside. But as other folks started dropping off, a lot of the mainstream gatekeepers started realizing, like, oh, maybe Trump is going to be the guy. But Paula White was on the end with Trump since the beginning. She was the one who brought a lot of her own friends in that charismatic world to Trump in the beginning to kind of get his stamp of approval, right? So White's like, look like Trump. I can't give you, you know, insert evangelical leader here. I can't give you Al Mohler, for example, because that's not my world. But I can give you this other charismatic pastor who's tied into this underground subculture of independent charismatic churches that can maybe influence people to vote for you. So when that all happens, a lot of the evangelical leaders all of a sudden realize they have to go through a charismatic prosperity gospel preacher, Paula White, to get to Trump. I think that that's just a fascinating piece of, of. Of history, because this is where the tide really starts turning, Right? Independent charismatics were kind of at the wayside for a long time, but all of a sudden, they have direct access to the nominee for president of the Republican Party. That's a big deal.
- [51:35]
April
Yeah, she definitely took advantage of the situation, and she. She was one of those early kind of. I don't know if she was prophesying that Trump would win, but she was definitely one of the Trump prophets that believed God chose Trump for such a time as this in 2020, you know, when. When in between the election that Joe Biden won and the inauguration, she gave that sermon. I don't know if you want to play that now, but she was basically, you know, still trying to declare victory that Donald Trump was going to win that election despite Don. Joe Biden.
- [52:16]
Tim
Which one is this? That you.
- [52:17]
April
That you want me to pull the African angels?
- [52:20]
Tim
Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. This actually may be a good segue into that, because that. Oh, my screen Is messed up. Let me fix that. So, yeah, I know to a lot of people who didn't grow up this way, this is going to sound really strange, but for Paula White, she is just manifesting in the spirit world a physical reality. This is. This is what she believes she's called to do. Don't forget, like you said earlier, April, right. She believes that whoever falls under the sound of her voice will essentially be saved. So she is implementing that in this clip. It went mega viral. So, yeah, let's go ahead and play it and we'll. We'll go from there.
- [52:59]
E
And strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike. Until you have victory. For every enemy that is aligned against you. Let there be that we would strike the ground for you will give us victory. God. I hear a sound of abundance of rain I hear a sound of victory I hear a sound of shouting and singing I hear a sound of victory I hear a sound of an abundance of rain I hear a sound of victory I hear a sound of an abundance of rain I hear a sound of victory the Lord says it is done the Lord says it is done the Lord says it is done For I hear victory Victory, Victory, victory In the quarters of heaven in the quarters of heaven Victory, Victory Victory Victory, Victory, Victory, victory. For angels are being released right now. Angels are being dispatched right now. For angels have even just been dispatched from Africa right now. Africa right now. Africa right now. From Africa right now. They're coming here. They're coming here in the name of Jesus From South America. They're coming here. They're coming here. They're coming here. They're coming here from Africa. From South America. Angelic forces. Angelic reinforcement. Angelic reinforcement. Angelic reinforcement For I hear the sound of victory I hear the sound of victory I hear the sound of victory I hear the sound of victory I hear the sound of victory I hear the sound of victory.
- [54:39]
Tim
That's a intense clip.
- [54:41]
April
And it keeps going.
- [54:42]
Tim
It keeps going.
- [54:44]
April
Yes, it's. I don't understand the one dude. Just walking around in the background holding a jacket.
- [54:51]
Tim
What's interesting about this is that she's really just doing an incantation, right? Like, she is. She's doing things that if there was different language and this was not a Christian person doing, she would call this demonic.
- [55:02]
April
But what she's doing, she calls this witchcraft.
- [55:04]
Tim
Yeah, witchcraft. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And again, because for Paula, the whole world is under demonic strongholds, and her and her crew have an. Are. Are representing God and essentially have to defeat these demonic strongholds all over the world. The reason why she talks about bringing angels from Africa to where she is is because she believes that there are different spiritual beings, different parts of the world, that, that, that can be called as reinforcements to protect God's anointed, which in this case is Trump. And this is, again, this is how the logic works. I understand for some people, it's like, this is crazy. This is out of. This is wild. Yes, you're right. But also, this is a sincerely held belief by Paula, and she really believes that as she's chanting these things and speaking in tongues, you know, she might argue would be a heavenly language, that she's actually changing things in the spirit realm that will have an impact on the upcoming election or the results of the election or whatever it could be, because Trump has been chosen by God to save the country. And she is one of God's special messengers appointed by God to protect Trump against the demonic strongholds of this evil, evil age.
- [56:20]
April
Right. And because she believes that about herself and about her calling on God, the fact that Donald Trump has invited her into his life, that's right. In her mind, it's like, well, Donald Trump wants God in his life too, because he wants me in his life. And there's that other clip I sent you, the link where she says. Where she basically says that, that where she goes, God goes. It's a. I think it was the YouTube link I sent you that new one, right?
- [56:51]
Tim
Yeah, I have it. Let me just grab it real quick. This week, I'm also creating the White House Faith Office led by Pastor Paula White, who is so amazing.
- [57:00]
E
For I hear, Victory, victory, victory, victory. In the quarters of heaven, in the corners, orders of heaven. Victory, victory, victory, victory, victory, victory, victory. For angels are being released right now. Angels are being dispatched right now, which is why right now, you better write that P.O. box and not just get the book and not just get this, which is exclusive to Jim and Laurie. Not just send in 35, but you need to send in $3,500. You need to send in 35,000. You need to send in that hundred thousand dollar check because you know God has blessed you. You know what a blessing, this ministry. I met President Trump 24 years ago. For those of you that don't know, wherever I go, God rules. When I walk on White House grounds, God walks on White House grounds. When I walked in the river, God walked in the river. When I go into the dry cleaner, that dry cleaning place becomes holy. I had every right and authority to declare The White House as holy ground. Because I was standing there and where I stand is holy. Holy for angels have even. And I literally went to the throne room of God. So in that divine encounter, I don't know how long I was there. I just know that kind of power is almost impossible for a natural body to contain. I received a phone call out of the blue. He had been listening to my sermons and watching me regularly. And they got him on the line and he said, this is Mr. Trump. And he began to repeat to me almost verbatim the three sermons, value of vision. And at the end of it, he said, you have the it factor. I said, oh, sir, we call that the anointing.
- [58:42]
April
But yeah, so she literally says, where she walks, God walks. Which is a belief that you know what the Holy Spirit is in you, that you take God wherever you go. But also God is omnipresent. So God is supposed to already be there. But there is this belief in Pentecostal circles that we have more Holy Spirit in us than your average Christian who doesn't seek the Holy Spirit. Like, there's this. We would have altar calls not just to get saved, but to be filled with the Holy Spirit, where we would be slain in the Spirit, which meant we would literally just fall backwards, like unconscious. We would like kind of looks like fainting. You would have people stand behind you as you fall back. A lot of people, we didn't believe this extreme, but a lot of people believed that you could not be saved, that you did not have salvation unless you had the evidence of speaking in tongues, that speaking in tongues was the proof that someone was actually saved by God. And so someone like Paula White, even though you. We do believe and she believes that God is omnipresent, she would believe that she's bringing more of God with her because of the call that she has on her life. And just like, I don't. I mean, I don't know if she genuinely believes that or not. She seems to. But if you do believe that about yourself, when. How do you decipher what is you and what is God? They become the same. And. And we're. And she is still a flawed human being who has this godlike view of herself.
- [60:32]
Tim
Right, right. It's. It's interesting, like how prideful and arrogant the perspective really is when you think about it. But when you're in it. Right. Because again, I mean, as someone who went from non charismatic to charismatic spaces, and I got hooked up with friends in that world, again, not as extreme as Paula White, or maybe Even as yourself. But I also believe that wherever I walk, the kingdom of God walked because I had a, you know, I had the Holy Spirit, et cetera, and that we were agents of, of God. Now, again, like, there's a fine line between as a Jesus follower, I want to be like Jesus and walk how Jesus walked and, and bring glimpses of heaven on earth to my local community. Right. The problem, though, is when that turns into, I'm special, I'm unique, I have a supernatural ability to change things. And those changes look like right wing conservative authoritarianism. Right. I mean, that's kind of the trick here is that we're not talking about someone who's like, I am working with the government because I have a special calling sent by God to eradicate poverty in America. Because we can do that, because the Bible's clear. We're not talking about that. What we're talking about is essentially language that gives people like Paula access to more power and more control in the name of we have to bring back God to America in order to make America Christian again. This is what Paula wants to do. In fact, I think it's interesting here, and maybe we can go to this now, is she was the only person to give an official prayer on January 6th before Trump spoke. I have, I have a little montage of that. It's a five minute prayer, but I pulled about maybe two minutes of it so folks can kind of hear how this language in action actually looks and sounds when they say the quiet parts out loud. Right. So again, the context is this is Paula White on January 6, 2021, praying in regards to the election process and all of that stuff, and, and praying for Donald Trump before he came out to speak and maybe one or two hours before the mob would storm the Capitol building. Listen to how these words sound now, knowing all that in context.
- [62:45]
E
We believe in miracles. We believe that God is able to do all things. So, Lord, let your plans stand forever, and may your purpose for this nation stand strong. For you said in Psalm 33 that blessed is the nation who's God. May your people rise up and stand strong. Give them strength and let them not be weary. In well doing, overturn every spirit of fear, intimidation, worry, anxiety. And I declare right now that you would give us a holy boldness in this hour. God, bind us to you. We come before you today repentive, turning our hearts back to you, crying out on behalf of our nation. God, you said you honor your word and your name above all things, says we hold you in covenant with you today. Let justice be done. Let justice be done. Let justice be done. Let we the people have the assurance of a fair and a just election. Hear our cry and turn our hearts to you. I thank you for President Trump. I thank you that he has stood with Israel. He has stood with life. He has stood for righteousness. He has stood for the most vulnerable. He has stood to alleviate poverty. He has stood for religious freedom. He has stood for safety and protection. He has stood in a place, God, that few men could stand. He has walked in your ways. And as you have allowed me to have a relationship with him and his family for. For 20 years. Right now, as his pastor, I put a hedge of protection around him. I secure his purpose. I secure his destiny. I secure his life. God and I thank you that he will walk in a holy boldness and a wisdom God, and that you will go before him.
- [64:54]
Tim
So that's. That's the quiet part out loud right there.
- [64:57]
April
Yeah. It is wild to hear her say thank you for Trump, who stood with the most marginalized.
- [65:05]
Tim
It is.
- [65:07]
April
In what world?
- [65:12]
Tim
Yeah, I do.
- [65:13]
April
I do want to say this was an article in the Washington Post and the Christian post back in 2017. So about a year after she became very pro Trump in Trump's first term, according to her son who was pastoring the church, that she was also a pastor at that quote, her relationship with the black community got really frayed because of President Trump. She got messages from black leaders saying, you betrayed us. That's what her son said. And allegedly, they said they lost between 200 and 300 people at their church and about $10,000 in donations weekly.
- [65:49]
Tim
Wow. Yeah, I. Well, I believe that. I. I completely believe that because. Okay, let's just set the stage. Right. This is January 6, 2021. Paula White is praying with a bunch of people that believe the election has been unfairly taken from them, that the deep state is in the White House, that a lot of people who are QAnon believers at this point believe that a storm is coming. And then Paula White comes out here and says, oh, God. We announce a hedge of protection around the president, and we know that he's a godly man who is doing your will, and we just pray that justice would roll. What do you think is happening here? Right. And so this is the. Here's the thing. For me, a lot of what Paula even prayed in so many ways, is pretty typical evangelical fare about justice and about, you know, even praying over. Over people. Now, obviously, it is. It is bewildering to hear her pray. Those Things over Trump, considering he's done none of those. But it's not about the words, it's about the presuppositions underneath the words. Because for Paul the white, this is what she's referring to. She's referring to right wing talking points. She's referring to saving America from, you know, the evil forces of, of, of, of the Democratic Party that wants to mass kill children and that, and that hates America and that's under the influence of demonic, you know, spirits and stuff like that. And so for her, thinking about the fact that she sees herself as someone who, whoever is under, is, under the sound of her voice, will be saved, who has a special anointing from God, the God of all creation. She's been chosen by him to protect Trump. Of course she's going to pray this. And of course she's going to pray in front of a bunch of people who believe that their country is being stolen from them. It's wild.
- [67:44]
April
Yeah. And, and she mentioned thank you for Trump for standing for Israel. There's a huge Christian, Zionist aspect to this too. And she is a very proponent of Israel. She was one of the spiritual advisors back in, I think it was 2017, in Trump's first term, when he moved the United States Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, which, you know, started some unrest there, which people warned about, but it did not matter because the spiritual advisors were advising that because of biblical prophecy around the end times with Israel and what they believe like they want. There's this giddiness that happens in a lot of these circles when wars break out that involve Israel because they see that as a sign of Jesus's return and that means they get to go to heaven sooner. It's not actually about supporting Jewish people.
- [68:38]
Tim
That's right.
- [68:38]
April
Specifically about supporting the state of Israel because of what that means in their end times belief. In fact, and to be fair. Yeah, like I was gonna say, Jewish people do not fare well in that story.
- [68:54]
Tim
I was just gonna say that. Yes, for, for many people, they believe that essentially half the Jewish population will be slaughtered in Israel and the rest or, or majority will burn in hell forever and only a fraction will actually be saved.
- [69:09]
April
I was taught only 144, 000 Jewish people would be saved.
- [69:14]
Tim
Think about that.
- [69:14]
April
Because they convert to Christianity.
- [69:16]
Tim
Exactly.
- [69:17]
April
Not because they're Jewish. Yeah, it up. You know, they, they say they're pro Israel and, and you know, think they're just these big allies to Judaism, but they're not. It is a very selfish theology and belief system around that.
- [69:32]
Tim
It just, Israel is used to serve their greater belief that God will return. And like you said, most will burn in hell forever because they're Jewish and only a small fraction will be saved. That, that's as anti Semitic as you can get. Right? But, but, but the, the reason why we're even covering all this, the reason why we're talking about Paula White and we're doing this series on some of the key players in Christian nationalism, is because for them, it's not enough to hold these beliefs in their private life or in their, in their churches or even their local communities. They have to. These beliefs must be superseded and must be pushed on to everyone else in America in order for their will, which they'll say is God's will to be accomplished. And they have it. They have so much access to power that's unprecedented, especially the independent charismatic movement. Right. They've been on the fringes for decades, and now they have the ear of a sitting president and they're the ones in charge. I mean, I do think it's worth pointing out this picture one more time because I think it's just so telling. This picture, this picture, actually, April, as we talked about this, I think is so key. So we shared this picture on a previous episode. It's, it's Donald Trump being prayed over by tons of different, like, Christian leaders, mostly evangelical ones. And I pointed out that on the far left, you have Al Mohler and this guy named William Wolf. They're on the outskirts. They're, they're as, they're actually the farthest away that you can get from Trump in this photo. William Wolf and Al Mueller, and we're going to cover them in future episodes, do not believe in women being pastors. They don't believe in the gifts of the spirit. They are on the other side of the evangelical track, so to speak. And they're extreme. They, they don't want women leading anywhere near their churches. They, they especially. William Wolf holds some very misogynistic and racist views. Just look at his Twitter. And yet he's praying over Trump with leaders including Paula White, who is about two and a half feet away from Trump. And I think this picture actually shows who actually has the power now politically and evangelicalism. It's the independent charismatics that are the closest to Trump. And it is some of these more mainline evangelical types, your Al Mowers, for example, who are actually on the outskirts now because independent charismatic theology has taken over the White House. It's taken over, you know, the mainstream evangelical psyche when it comes to demons and. And oppression and fighting for our country and manifesting in the spirit. Spirit. That's. That's the new mainstream evangelicalism these days. Yeah, not so much the Al Mohler types.
- [72:13]
April
I also want to point out, too, there's some Baptists that are joining forces with Paula White, I think, because of her allegiance, like her closeness and proximity to Donald Trump. Like Robert Jeffries, who pastors First Baptist in Dallas. He promoted her book in 2019, as did Jack Graham, who is a pastor of Prestonwood Baptist in Dallas, who. Which is a massive, huge, mega church. Jerry Falwell Jr also promoted her book. And Franklin Graham. None of those people are Franklin Graham. Yeah, Franklin Graham promoted her book in 2019. Just said something like, you should check it out. Like, these are people who are not actually independent, charismatic people, men who promote Paula White because of their allegiance to Donald Trump.
- [73:10]
Tim
Yeah, I mean, I'm looking at what you said. You're right. Yeah. Jack Grant, pastor of Preston Baptist Church, which, by the way, is where Ali Stuckey had her massive event in September. So Ali Stuckey thinks that Paula White's a heretic. Ali Stuckey has her event at a mega church whose pastor at one point promoted Paula White's book. Look, for those of you who didn't grow up in this world, I can't tell you how big of a deal this is. This is like, I. I don't even know how to put it in, like, you know, pop culture terms, but it is just a. It's a massive deal that a Jack Graham type or, Or Robert Jeffries, who again, represents this more gatekeeper common evangelicalism that usually is very much women shouldn't be pastors and certainly would not endorse prosperity preaching is. Is not just tolerating, but openly promoting Paula White's book. That is unreal. But to your point, April, it is a great example of which evangelical stream currently has the power, and it is. It's the age of the charismatic, baby. That's all I can say. You know, we're in the age of the charismatic, and it has real consequences, including being a major role in the January 6th insurrection. There's a huge theology behind all of that. So I think Paula White, the reason why we chose her in the beginning is because she is kind of ground zero for some of this. Without Paula White, Trump never really gets super political or at least has the evangelical vote the way that. That, that he gets it. Paula White is currently the person overseeing the. The Office of Faith or the Faith office in the White House, you know, which is of course aimed at strengthening the relationships with conservative Christian churches. They're not looking to, to, to build faith coalitions, broadly speaking, especially of other religions. This is who's in power. This is who has the ear of the President. It's wild.
- [75:02]
April
To be fair, I just saw from this one website that promoted the people that endorse Paula White's book. And granted this is these were, this article is written by someone who, who is fundamentalist Christian but not a fan of Paula White because they view her as heresy. But apparently Franklin Graham deleted his tweet endorsing it after pushback.
- [75:21]
Tim
Well, I'm, I'm not surprised, you know.
- [75:24]
April
But regardless, these, these men see her access to Donald Trump and that matters to them.
- [75:32]
Tim
It matters more than anything. Right. We always talk about the litmus. The foundational principles for Christian nationalists are power and control. They will jettison their own theological convictions and more immoral convictions at any moment to get access to that power and control. This is why they endorse Trump. This is why many of them work with Paula White now. Because ultimately, no matter how loud they are about God's design for, for, you know, headship and, and women shouldn't preach in church or, or sexuality is, you know, the Bible's clear on sexuality and we have to stop this depraved culture. And then they're sex crazed population, they don't care about that nearly as much as having access to the levers of power to fundamentally reshape America in their likeness. And this is just another example of that.
- [76:21]
April
Yeah, let's, let's play a couple more of her clips just to give you an idea of her, just her ministry, what she does. She went viral this past Easter because she was asking for people to give a thousand dollar gift and she claimed that you'd get certain things if you did that.
- [76:42]
Tim
Here we go.
- [76:43]
E
When you honor God on Passover, starting on April 12th at sundown, through Good Friday on the 18th and concluding on Easter Sunday, you can receive these seven supernatural blessings for you and your house. According to Exodus 23. God will assign an angel to you. He'll be an enemy to your enemies. He'll give you prosperity. He'll take sickness away from you. He will give you you long life. He'll bring increase in inheritance, and he'll give a special year of blessing. You're not doing this to get something, but you're doing it in honor to God, realizing what you can receive for.
- [77:19]
Paula White
Your special Passover offering of $1,000 or more as the Holy Spirit leads You will also receive the beautiful 10 inch Waterford Crystal cross. Don't miss your moment to release seven supernatural blessings and provision in into your life.
- [77:34]
Tim
Okay. I mean, if this is not the prosperity gospel, I don't know what is.
- [77:41]
April
I know also God will assign an angel to you. Wow.
- [77:47]
Tim
For only a thousand bucks. That's a bargain.
- [77:49]
April
Here's my question. What if my enemy also gives $1,000 in this? Is who's God going to be an enemy of? Says God will be an enemy to your enemies. What if my enemy also does this?
- [78:03]
Tim
I think you have to give a thousand and one dollars. I think it's whoever gives more has the stronger angel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
- [78:11]
April
Wow.
- [78:12]
Tim
Seven blessings according to Exodus 23, you, you get for a thousand dollars, you get an angel assigned to you, you're an enemy to your enemies. Also, can we just think about like how Jesus taught us to love our enemies and Paula White's like, look, give me a thousand bucks and God will be an enemy to your enemies enemies. Like it's again, it's built on an us versus them mentality. Give you prosperity, take sickness away. Give you long life cause increase for you a special year of blessing. Wow.
- [78:42]
April
If you give $2,000, do you get two angels also? How good are these angels? Are they like top tier? You know, are they, I need a resume here in the gates of hell on my behalf angels or are they just kind of like, like, you know, help me get a good parking spot.
- [78:59]
Tim
Angel like, like do you get a chance to interview them on zoom? Like. All right, Michael, I see here that.
- [79:04]
April
You know also I just googled that cross that you get if you give the thousand dollars or more. How much from the Waterford website it is $100. So you could just save $900 and go straight to Waterford website to buy that, that hundred dollar ten inch cross if you want.
- [79:29]
Tim
You want to do another one?
- [79:31]
April
Yeah, do the Paula White Esther proverbs giving. This is something that happens so often in charismatic circles. Not just with giving, but just with numbers. Like we, we when we used to do prophecy of the week, back when we did the tne recaps, we saw a lot of this where they'd be like, Pope Francis is turning 88. 88 means. Which means that site, the, you know, that hell's opening up on this date and the rapture, like, you know, and that the. When the eclipse happened last year 4A, they were connecting it with, I don't remember what Bible verse. Something for there's always, there's a lot of numbers. Yeah, Bible code and numbers happening. And they, they assign like supernatural meaning to it, but it, it's. It's nothing. Anyway, just, just that's. That's what this is.
- [80:19]
E
Challenging you to sew $133 for Proverbs 1:33. But whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease without fear of harm. If you absolutely cannot join in sowing $133 for Proverbs 1:33. Because I believe it's so important to stand on God's word, then sow your very best as you so a favor of $52 or more standing on Esther 5. 2. For she obtained favor in the king's sight. This is an act of faith, just like Queen Esther did in reaching out to touch the top of the king's scepter. In faith in Esther, chapter five, verse two. It's the chief place. It's the same thing as touching Jesus. Touch the top and maybe you can. Can stand with me and give a sacrificial offering to stand with Paul, the white ministry. I need you right now. And that sacrificial offering of $414 for Esther. 414. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father's family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this. God can open it up just like that. He can give you more than what you've asked for.
- [81:42]
Tim
I. That makes me angry.
- [81:45]
April
You would think with the colon, where the colon is that you'd be giving a $44, you know, or $4 and 14 cents.
- [81:55]
Tim
That makes more sense.
- [81:56]
April
Not $414.
- [82:00]
Tim
What, what is so frustrating about this is that there are people who are at their wits end in life who see this, think this is it. It's almost like a. It's almost like a lottery right? Where you think, okay, you know what? I'm at the end of my rope here, but if I can just hit it big one time. And this, these people, the way that, that first off they hijack the Bible, like, wow, talk about just a horrible interpretation, like horrific. But the fact that they use it for their own benefit financially while preying on the. The hurt and the desperation of other people is just like, you know, if hell exists. You just wonder what it looks like for people like this because wow, it's unbelievable. Unbelievable.
- [82:42]
April
Yeah, so I used to work for CBN and they made all of the producers, so 700 Club, Christian Broadcasting Network, Pat Robertson's thing. Within the first month, we had a telethon, and so they made everybody volunteer to answer phone calls for the telethon. We were raising money, and they teach you how to basically upsell. You know, if someone wants to donate. You know, like, you can always just ask for more. I could not do that. I was like, that feels really gross. So I did not do that. But that is something that they, they. They teach you to do, but they justify it because they're like, we're doing good works. We're doing good deeds for the kingdom. And so people can feel good about taking money from people. If you want to actually play that other video that's in there about the good deeds, this is an example of how people can feel justified with a theology like this. That feels so. There's nothing really biblical about you give this X amount of money and you get this. Like, that is nowhere found in the Bible. You know, you can. In Malachi, it talks about giving, you know, 10%. That's where the whole tithing idea comes from. But outside of that, there's really no biblical justification at all for giving this amount of money.
- [84:03]
Tim
It's the opposite. Proverbs 22, 22. Do not exploit the poor because they are poor, and do not crush the needy in court. Hi, Paula. You know, like, these prosperity people do not listen to those verses. They actually.
- [84:18]
April
I remember being taught too, that verse that says, God loves a cheerful giver. And so not only were we taught, like, you need to give sacrificially, not just tithe, which was 10%, but to always give above your tithe, and to do it, like, with joy, to be happy about it, because God would bless you if you were happy about the sacrifices you were giving.
- [84:38]
Tim
The whole system is just built to exploit people and use spiritual authority to do it. That's what it comes down to, right? Again, you put all the pieces together. Paula sees herself as someone who's been anointed by God to do miraculous things. She uses that power to convince people who are less fortunate or who are in desperate positions to give her money in hopes that God. God will somehow send them an angel. And the reality is that they lose money. She gains money, makes millions of dollars doing it, and lives a life based on their exploitation, which actually goes against the very Bible that she claims to believe in. Oh, my gosh. Like, the injustice of that just gets me so fired up because it's like how it's so clear that you're a charlatan. And this is the person who's currently in our in political office or that that has a special role in government, who knows Trump, who's been his pastor for 20 years. And this is what they mean by we're gonna be a Christian country again. It's, it's unbelievable. Okay. End of rant for that, but okay. Yeah. So this is. I agree, April. This is a really good clip. Actually it's a little bit longer friends, but it's worth listening to or watching because it, this is how they justify the work that they do and the money that they make.
- [85:51]
Paula White
And savior Jesus Christ, who rose on the third day and walked out from the tomb after he gave the ultimate sacrifice because of his never ending love for you and I. You are on God's mind and in his heart. He conquered death, hell and the grave for you. And he is alive. He wants to resurrect things in your life. Your hopes and dreams, family and loved ones, careers in ministry, opportunities, health favor and more. Today let us stand in faith together and give a sacrificial Easter resurrection offering to God. Call toll free right there PO Box or go online. And for your best Easter resurrection ministry offering today of any size, we are believing for miracles for you. Just like John 11:44, the dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, take off the grave clothes and let him go. We will touch and agree with your name and your love offering that God will provide and multiply it into a great harvest for the kingdom. Honor God with your best Easter resurrection offering today.
- [86:53]
Tim
This is unbelievable.
- [86:54]
Paula White
Because of the faithful support and prayers of ministry partners and friends, we are able to transform lives, heal hearts and win souls worldwide every single day. Through the outreaches of Paula White Ministries, our global gospel outreach reaching hundreds of millions of people online and the daily Paula Today television program broadcasted in potentially 190 countries. Our massive food and household outreaches distributing truckloads of food weekly totaling over 29 million pounds of food in the last four years and millions of dollars in new household furniture to those in need. Our disaster relief efforts delivering multiple tractor trailer truckloads and hurricane disaster relief helping to bring hope and rebuild communities. Community transformation adopting places like the hurricane ravages town of Chimney Rock, N.C. rebuilding complexes, restoring and mobilizing over 3,000 volunteers to bring donations, love and support to help resurrect and rebuild the community as well as help rebuild a Moshe Av in Israel destroyed in the October 7 massacre. Impactful outreach events like our annual Back to School Bash, Thanksgiving Table in the Wilderness and Children's Christmas Outreach Pond. Positively impacting thousands every year. Prison ministry and revival. Going into prisons and sharing the gospel, Advocacy for biblical values. Spearheading, organizing, educating and activating church leaders to bring back biblical values in America. Through the National Faith Advisory Board and the annual National Faith Summit. Making a difference at our Borders. Connecting together hundreds of pastors with local, state and national leaders, leaders with the U.S. border Patrol who educate and inform them on the process and challenges faced on the border, as well as blessing the families of fallen Border Patrol agents through Operation Border Blessing. And we have so much more to do. This 2025, your much needed prayers and support help sustain and expand these vital ministries, bringing hope, restoration and the transformative power of the gospel to those millions in need. Thank you.
- [89:04]
April
So first of all, go ahead. Those are good things. You know, see what they're like. This is good things. Although notice how they're only helping Israel and only helping like the families of border patrol agents, not families of immigrants coming across or getting stuck there or whatever. So that's obviously very political. But those are good things. You know, helping kids afford backpacks, clean water, rebuilding communities, like those are good deeds. When you're in this world, you can justify a lot of harm and a lot of things that may not be, that might be questionable because you are constantly fed very carefully created videos like that you're shown, like, look at all the good that we're doing. Look at all, look at all the children that we're helping is. Numbers are a huge deal. Like, we served 5 million people last year. And who knows how accurate these numbers are? But they're very big on numbers, very big on, you know, give us your money and we will do the good deeds for you. And so it's almost like this cop out where a lot of Christians can go to sleep and feel good about themselves because they're giving money to ministries that are, that are helping people. But then they can continue to vote for policies that actually harm a lot of people, people that they think that they're helping. Because there's also this, you know, belief in this world that it should be the church and it should be Christians that actually help, you know, the marginalized and the poor and not the government. But the reality is churches, there's are not doing enough to help everybody that needs help because a lot of these issues are systemic, but they're not willing to address these systemic issues that keep, you know, poor people poor and to keep, and keep People on the fringes and struggling because they feel like, oh, well, we're doing enough. Look, look, we're, we're doing our best where we are helping people. And so it's, it keeps people inside with enough good that it makes them think, oh, look, well, we are good people.
- [91:14]
Tim
Yes, No, I, I completely agree with you. And it also enables them to vote for people and politicians who do the complete opposite. Right. So, like, to your point, it's great to talk about those things. And then you see the Border Patrol, it's like, wait, well, like, interesting. So, like, we're gonna help families of border patrol agents who are no longer. Who have been killed, as you know, again, allegedly. But sure, yeah, there's still people, right? Main image of God. But we're not gonna. But we're gonna vote for someone who believes that all immigrants are poisoning society, who is currently deporting people illegally, and we're going to defend him as being a biblical godly candidate because that makes America great again. You know, it's like, it's, it's, it's weird because there's, there is. There are certain acts of charity. Another one, Right. We want to give kids backpacks for. With school supplies. That's great. But you also want the Department of Education dismantled and you want public education cut from the budget, which would actually solve the problem of kids needing school supplies in the first place. Right. Or poverty or fair wages or affordable health care. Right. These folks are going to be the first ones in line to vote for politicians who will say, that's socialism. That's Marxism. We can't do that. It's the church's job. But it's always going to fall short because there are more people than there are churches who need help. And it's kind of like, I don't know, it's kind of like turning off the faucet but not stopping the drain. Right. Like, you can keep that faucet on all day, but if the drain is still open, you're going to keep dumping water out. It's never going to fill the bathtub up. They're not looking at the root issues of what is causing so many of the problems that they're trying to solve. And not that I am, you know, in favor of the government fixing everything. You need to have a partnership between the local community, churches, other religious institutions, business, and the government working together. But this whole situation, like you said, this video, it's a, it's really propaganda in a lot of ways. Like, is there truth behind it? Sure. But how it's being used is to maintain a status quo, that we're doing the good work so we don't need the government to step in. Meanwhile, people are suffering all across the nation because of the very policies and politicians that they're voting in on the pretense of this is who God wants to be in charge, which really gives us more access to that political power and control that we so desperately seek.
- [93:43]
April
It's kind of like putting a band aid on a bullet wound.
- [93:46]
Tim
Yeah.
- [93:46]
April
You know, does it help? Maybe a little bit, but it's not solving the problem. You know, like, you can put a band aid on and feel like I helped, but you're not solving that problem.
- [93:59]
Tim
Right. 100%.
- [94:01]
April
Yeah.
- [94:02]
Tim
Yeah. Well, this was. This was a pretty decent deep dive. It went longer than we thought.
- [94:07]
April
It did take longer. I know. On one person. Gosh.
- [94:10]
Tim
I know.
- [94:11]
April
We're like, oh, we can get through Paula white, what, like 35 minutes, 40 minutes?
- [94:16]
Tim
Well, she represents so much. She represents more than just herself. Right. She represents an entire sect of. Of evangelicalism that has gained so much access to power and that also is getting more and more popular. So I think it's a really good primer as we get into the new Avicello Reformation, seven Mountain mandate. Lance Wall now and other people as well, to kind of help folks understand why you and I and many others are so passionate about exposing this stuff because it's animating so much of what's happening currently in our political moment today.
- [94:47]
April
Yeah, yeah, no, totally. So, yeah, look out for our deep dives. They'll drop on Mondays and then Thursdays. You can join us live right here on YouTube at 12:00pm Eastern.
- [94:59]
Tim
Thanks for being here.
- [95:01]
April
Have a good one.