112. The MAGA War on Black Voters Explained

Summary

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The Tim & April Show Episode 112

"The MAGA War on Black Voters Explained"

Date: May 15, 2026
Podcast: The Tim & April Show (The New Evangelicals)
Hosts: Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy
Guest: Dr. Jemar Tisby

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Episode Overview

In this vital episode, Tim and April are joined by renowned historian and author Dr. Jemar Tisby to unravel the current crisis regarding Black voting rights in the United States. With a candid, educational, and impassioned style, the hosts and guest break down the ongoing campaign against Black representation, the Supreme Court's dismantling of the Voting Rights Act, racist undercurrents in state policies, and how these patterns are iterations of a much older struggle for civil rights. The discussion is fact-filled, urgent, and historically grounded, offering clear calls to action for listeners engaged in the intersection of faith, justice, and civic responsibility.

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Table of Contents

1. Introduction & Setting the Stage
2. Meet the Guest: Dr. Jemar Tisby
3. Black Voting Rights Crisis: The New Civil Rights Movement
4. How the Supreme Court Gutted the Voting Rights Act
5. The Southern States: Redistricting Tactics & White Christian Nationalism
6. Historical Patterns: "History Doesn't Repeat, It Rhymes"
7. How to Respond: From Apathetic Voters to Community Organizing
8. Golden Trump Statue: Modern Idolatry and the Evangelical Landscape
9. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
10. Action Steps, Resource Links, and Final Notes

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1. Introduction & Setting the Stage

(00:00–03:37)

• Light-hearted opening with Tim and April, friendly banter about April's new haircut.
• Announcements about their upcoming live event in Sarasota, Florida.
• The main theme introduced: exploring the regression of Black voting rights in the US and its connection to faith, justice, and political activism.
• The urgency and seriousness of the episode’s topic is set; Dr. Jemar Tisby is welcomed as a special guest.

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2. Meet the Guest: Dr. Jemar Tisby

(04:42–05:47)

• Tisby introduces himself as a historian, author, and CEO of Tisby Media.
• Notable works: "The Color of Compromise," "How to Fight Racism," "The Spirit of Justice."
• Encouragement to subscribe to his Substack, Footnotes.

"One thing I keep saying is the Voting Rights Act is dead, if not on paper, then in practice." — Dr. Jemar Tisby (06:36)

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3. Black Voting Rights Crisis: The New Civil Rights Movement

(06:17–10:21)

• Tisby frames the current struggle for voting rights as the civil rights movement of our day.
• He stresses the gravity of the Supreme Court’s rulings and state-led gerrymandering.
• These actions are “a four-alarm fire” and not just another political headline.
• Detailed examples from Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama.

"This is not business as usual. This is not just another headline... This is something that's going to take sustained action and activism to resist." — Dr. Jemar Tisby (07:27)

• Mississippi Governor's rhetoric and the use of "states' rights" echo language previously used to defend slavery and segregation.

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4. How the Supreme Court Gutted the Voting Rights Act

(10:30–15:45)

• Discussion of Chief Justice John Roberts’ decades-long project to dismantle the VRA.
• 2013: Removal of the “preclearance” clause—states with histories of discrimination no longer need federal permission to change voting laws.
• 2026: Supreme Court further weakens Section 5, raising the legal bar from proving discriminatory impact to proving intent—a nearly impossible standard.

“You have to prove that racism was in their hearts when they drew those congressional districts, which, of course, is almost impossible to prove.” —Dr. Jemar Tisby (13:41)

• The practical result: Legal challenges to racist gerrymandering become almost insurmountable.

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5. The Southern States: Redistricting Tactics & White Christian Nationalism

(15:45–20:07)

• The timing of the Supreme Court decision was deliberately early to allow GOP-led states to redraw maps ahead of midterms.
• Tactics like “cracking” and “packing” Black communities divide or concentrate Black voters to minimize their representation.
• No Black official in Louisiana, Mississippi, or similar states has ever been elected statewide from a majority white district.
• Systemic removal of Black representation from legislatures where Black people are a significant portion of the population.

"White Christian nationalism is still white, even in Blackface." —Dr. Jemar Tisby, on Black pastors supporting MAGA initiatives (59:36)

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6. Historical Patterns: "History Doesn't Repeat, It Rhymes"

(24:21–33:25)

• Tisby gives a sweeping, accessible history of Black suffrage from the Declaration, through the 3/5 compromise, Dred Scott, Reconstruction, Jim Crow, to the civil rights era.

"Voting has always been the gold standard of citizenship... but it's also always been withheld from people who were deemed undesirable." — Dr. Jemar Tisby (25:32)

• Key point: Racist laws and gerrymandering often use “race-neutral” language, but historically and currently, the effect is intentional disenfranchisement.
• Vivid historical analogies (poll taxes, literacy tests, “counting bubbles in a bar of soap”) used to mask anti-Black intent.

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7. How to Respond: From Apathetic Voters to Community Organizing

(37:03–47:08)

• Tisby stresses that much of election law is handled at the state level—so local politics matter significantly.
• Calls for creative resistance and for white allies to “step up” and not rely solely on Black political engagement.
• Emphasizes: Don’t waste energy trying to convince MAGA loyalists; instead, activate apathetic voters.
• The urgency: “They would not be working so hard to suppress your vote if your vote didn’t matter.” (21:36)
• Suggestions for action:
  • Push for Supreme Court reforms (term limits, court expansion, oversight).
  • Massive voter turnout ("they only win when we stop trying").
  • Participate in modern-day civil rights actions (ex: All Roads Lead to the South march in Selma, 47:12).
  • Engage in local elections, educate oneself, volunteer, and “try everything.”

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8. Golden Trump Statue: Modern Idolatry and the Evangelical Landscape

(55:49–73:30)

• Hosts discuss the recent viral dedication of a golden statue of Donald Trump at his Miami golf resort, replete with evangelical pastors laying hands and praying over it.
• The spectacle draws direct parallels to biblical idol worship (Exodus, the golden calf).

"Let me be clear. This is not a golden calf. We worship the Lord Jesus Christ and him alone. This statue is a celebration of life." — Pastor Mark Burns (71:14)

• Dr. Tisby calls out performative displays by Black MAGA-adjacent pastors, noting how such figures serve as “racial cover” for white Christian nationalism.
• The incident is critiqued as deeply ironic given evangelical teachings about idolatry and the antichrist, along with the lack of self-reflection in the MAGA movement.

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9. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Civil Rights Urgency:

  "This is the civil rights movement of our day. Let me say it again. This is the civil rights movement of our day." — Dr. Jemar Tisby (06:19/06:36)

• Voting Rights Reality:

  "The Voting Rights Act is dead, if not on paper, then in practice." — Dr. Jemar Tisby (07:06)

• Impact to Intent Standard:

  “You have to prove that racism was in their hearts... impossible to prove.” — Dr. Jemar Tisby (13:41)

• Why Suppress the Vote?

  “They would not be working so hard to suppress your vote if your vote didn’t matter.” — Dr. Jemar Tisby (21:36)

• Pattern of Neutral Language:

  “A literacy test doesn’t say Black people can’t vote. They’re hiding behind something else.” — Tim Whitaker (31:09)

• Modern Idolatry:

  “This is a very short clip. So Trump did call in... I want to thank Mark Burns, a pastor. He’s a good pastor.” — Tim Whitaker playing Trump’s call-in at statue dedication (61:15) “White Christian nationalism is still white, even in blackface.” — Dr. Jemar Tisby (59:36)

• On Christian Political Responsibility:

  “If this is the modern day civil rights movement, what do you say you would have been doing in the 1950s and 60s? Do that now.” — Dr. Jemar Tisby (45:40)

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10. Action Steps, Resource Links, and Final Notes

Immediate Actions Urged

• Vote, both local and national.
  • Register, show up, and encourage others, especially apathetic voters (46:45).
• Push for Supreme Court and election law reforms.
• Join or support civil rights marches and advocacy groups.
  • Ex: AllRoadsLeadToTheSouth.com
• Educate yourself and others:
  • Read "The Color of Compromise," "How to Fight Racism," "The New Jim Crow," works by Ibram X. Kendi.
  • Subscribe to Dr. Jemar Tisby’s Substack: jamar-tisby.substack.com
  • Documentary: JesusWasAMigrant.com
• Hold political leaders accountable—demand real consequences for anti-democratic actions.
• Faith community leadership:
  • White Christians, talk to your white friends and do your own work. Don’t expect Black church leaders to always carry the burden.

Tone & Takeaways

• The episode is candid, urgent, and unapologetic in its calls for justice and action.
• Hosts blend historical context, personal storytelling, humor, and frustration, modeling how to process the gravity and absurdity of contemporary American Christian politics.
• The consistent refrain: This is not normal. This requires urgent participation, not silent observation.

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For More:

• Dr. Jemar Tisby’s Substack
• The New Evangelicals
• All Roads Lead to the South march
• Jesus Was a Migrant Documentary

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Summary by The Podcast Summarizer
— For listeners seeking depth, clarity, and actionable hope at the intersection of faith, justice, and politics.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

[B]

Hi.

[C]

Hello, April. I think we have to address the elephant in the room right away. Your hair. Your hair. It looks great.

[A]

About my hair.

[C]

It looks great.

[A]

It's always been like this.

[C]

Okay. Okay. Don't gaslight me on the air. Okay. Don't. Don't do that to me.

[A]

Thank you. Yeah, no, I got it cut yesterday and I said like shoulder length, you know, and then. But I was expecting like, shoulder length with some layers. And then she just kept cutting and then she diffused it curly because my hair is naturally curly. So this length curly was like boing. Like, I don't know how to handle it.

[C]

I will say it is technically shoulder length, you know, like, technically here.

[A]

But some of these layers are so short.

[C]

Yeah, it looks good, though. It's a good look for you. I'm a fan. I mean, I'm sure the chat has something to say about it. I'm sure they're all going to love it as per usual.

[A]

So, yeah, no one's going to be mean and be like, a nice haircut.

[C]

April looks great. Your hair looks beautiful. See, April, you look lovely.

[D]

They love you.

[C]

They love the hair.

[A]

So thank you all.

[C]

Oh, man. Anyway, well, friends, welcome into the Tim April show. I am Tim Whitaker.

[A]

And I'm April Ajoy.

[C]

We go live every Thursday, 12 o' clock Eastern, on YouTube and on substack with our friends over at Lincoln Media Square. Welcome in. Please make sure to hit the like button if you're watching on YouTube. If you're watching on substack, gently touch the heart button. We have a very full show today. We have a special guest. One thing that I love about this show and about what me and April get to do is that because we've been in this space for so long, we've made some really great connections and friendships with people who really know their stuff. I mean, I'm not going to speak for you, April, but I will say for me, you know, I'm kind of sometimes like imposter syndrome. Like, I just read a lot to hopefully regurgitate the talking points. But it's nice when you get the primary sources live on the show. So we have a special guest coming your way in just a second who's going to help us break down what is going on with this redistricting stuff and why we are in a new era of the civil rights movement and what's going on. So I'm so pumped for that, before we bring our guests in, we will be live this Sunday. We're going to be live on the at Sarasota. I think I have the graphic here somewhere. Where is it?

[A]

I think I definitely did Harvest Church in Sarasota, Florida. Thank you. This Sunday, May 17, the same day as the Rededicate America.

[C]

Honestly, I was. I was hoping to go to D.C. to cover that thing, but I'll be in Sarasota with you. Hanging out, doing a podcast, though. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So anyway, it's going to be 10am

[C]

in the morning, 10am live. There is no cost to attend. Just show up. We're going, have a great time. We are so pumped. April and I fly in tomorrow, and we'll be every. We'll get all prepped and ready to go. I cannot wait to do our first ever live in person show. And also, April, I have not seen you in person in over a year, so it'll be so nice hanging out with you without this stinking screen in between us, you know? So I'm looking forward to it.

[A]

So it'll be fun.

[C]

Yeah, it'll be a good time. So. All right, well, should we get to it and kind of get our guest in?

[A]

Yes. I love this guest.

[C]

No, me too.

[A]

Can we say his name?

[C]

Yeah, I'm going to say his name. So we are bringing on Dr. Jamar Tisby. I say this every time, but I think it's just worth saying so. His book, the Color of Compromise was one of the, like, pivotal moments in my deconstruction journey in, like, 2021, 2022, that era. I saw the murder of Maud Arbery and George Floyd and Bernard Taylor. I thought, something is wrong. And someone, or I think I found the book somewhere online. I read it, and it totally shattered my very white evangelical worldview that we fixed racism, quote, unquote, in the 60s. And since then, I've had the pleasure of becoming friends with him. We've all hung out before, so please welcome on the show Dr. Jamar Tisby. Hello, Jamar. So good to see you, my friend.

[D]

Hey, Tim. Hey, April. So good to join you on the show. And I agree, April, the hair looks fabulous.

[A]

Oh, thank you. Now, everyone listening on podcast is going to be like, what does she look like?

[C]

We're trying to drive our audience to YouTube, you know?

[A]

Yeah, there you go.

[C]

So, Jamar, you know, you are. You're. You're a friend of the show. You've been on the show many times, but for our substack audience in particular, who might not know about you. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to them?

[D]

Sure thing. I am a historian, as you mentioned, wrote the book the Color of Compromise. My latest book is the Spirit of Justice. The middle book is how to Fight Racism. So I guess I'm also an author and I am the founder and CEO of a new venture called Tisby Media and we do a whole bunch of things. But for our substack audience, please go over and check out my substack publication Footnotes, which is@jamar tisby.substack.com awesome.

[C]

Love that.

[A]

And your and your other books are also great. Cosign on that.

[D]

Appreciate it.

[A]

But I still tell people that are just now like deconstructing to read Color of Compromise because the amount of people that are shocked, especially like white people, especially specifically people like me, black people already knew, but white people are like, what? We were complicit in racism. It's just super eye opening still for so many people.

[C]

For sure. Yeah, it's really well done. So, you know, Jamar, April and I were talking about this show. We wanted to kind of COVID the blatant regression of what's happening when it comes to black voting rights. But obviously we are not experts in what's led up to this moment. Frankly, we're not even fully versed in what's actually happening. There's so much clutter going on. So we wanted to talk to you as a historian and someone who tracks these kinds of movements very closely. Can you kind of give us like the 101 of what is happening and where this is coming from?

[D]

Here's the top line. This is the civil rights movement of our day. Let me say it again. This is the civil rights movement of our day. That is not hyperbole. That is not clickbait. You don't get more on the nose about civil rights than dismantling voting rights, which is precisely what is happening accelerated by this most recent Supreme Court ruling on the Voting Rights Act. One of the things I keep saying is the Voting Rights act is dead, if not on paper, then in practice. You don't remember anything about what we say today. Just remember that this is the civil rights movement of our day. And the civil and the Voting Rights act, which was a crowning achievement of the civil rights movement, is dead, if not on paper because it's still on the books, then in practice. So that's what's going on. There's a lot of legalese. There's a lot of conversation about specific rulings and timelines. And I'm glad to go through the history of that, but I just want folks to know this is a four alarm fire, five alarm fire, whatever it is, right? Like, this is not business as usual. This is not just another headline that you look at, you say, oh, that sucks, and then move on. This is something that's going to take sustained action and activism to resist. So that's where we are.

[A]

Yeah. Well, it seems like so many states, I think I just saw too, that Mississippi is looking at redrawing their map to erase like their only one, like black representative in the state. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

And then Louisiana, Alabama, Louisiana. Mississippi's interesting because Governor Tate Reeves, who is derided, his nickname is Tater Tot among many. And it was interesting that he actually called off the special session of the state legislature that was supposed to redraw Mississippi's maps. But here's the thing that people missed about the headline. They saw the headline, they called off the thing and they're like, yeah, great. But then when you read below the headline, here's what he said. He said between now and 2027, when the next state elections are, they do want to redraw the maps. So it's delayed.

[C]

So.

[D]

And then the other thing he said was about Bennie Thompson. Now, Bennie Thompson has been the lone black congressperson from Mississippi for 30 plus years. He's represented his district for 33 years. His district includes Jackson, Mississippi and the Mississippi Delta. Those are the two places in the state of Mississippi with the highest concentrations of black people. I've lived both in the Mississippi Delta and Jackson, Mississippi. I can say firsthand those places are blackity black. Mississippi is a blackity black state. It is nearly 40% black, which is the highest percentage of any state in the Union. And they have one district with a Democrat who is black. Right. So it's a big deal. Here's what he said, Tater. I mean, the governor of Mississippi said that Bennie Thompson's quote, quote, reign of terror is almost over. Wow. He called the black Democrat representing black people. He said it was a reign of terror.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[D]

Let me, let me say one more thing.

[C]

Go ahead.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay. Lieutenant Governor Delbert Hoseman praised the Supreme Court and their ruling dismantling Voting Rights Act. And he used the phrase, I kid you not. He used the phrase states rights. He says this restores a fundamental states right, which is the same language used in the Civil War by Confederate states to defend slavery and the same language used by, during the Jim Crow era to defend segregation. And Here it is like a zombie coming back.

[A]

It's like that quote. I feel like you say a lot, Jamar, that history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.

[C]

It's like the same cycle over and they're always iterating on new ways to accomplish the same outcomes. Right. I mean, that's, it's just, it's, it's. Can, can, can, can you explain a little bit? Because you did this really well when we talked a week or two ago about like what this Supreme Court ruling did. And essentially, you know, how they're, it's obviously racist in nature, but how they're trying to paint it as political and not racial. Can you just explain that and kind of what it means now?

[D]

So the first thing is this all goes back to people. So Chief Justice John Roberts has been on a crusade to dismantle the Voting Rights act since the early 1980s, going back to the Reagan administration. Mind you, here's what jumps out at me, what Roberts and the far right conservative justices are saying, because it wasn't, you know, it was a 6, 3 ruling. So there's three dissents. But what the majority is saying is essentially that racism. We've progressed to such a point that we no longer need all these safeguards that the Voting Rights act put in place because, you know, racism is largely a problem of the past. Well, here's the thing. John Roberts was saying that in the 1980s, just 15 years after the Voting Rights Act. Right. Like you might think, well, in 2026, maybe he has a point. No, he was already saying that 40 years ago. So I want to know, Chief Justice John Roberts, what was the date when racism died?

[A]

Right.

[D]

When was it on the count? I would love to commemorate it. Right. Like, why don't we have a holiday for that? The last day of racism. Racism ended. Well, obviously it hasn't ended. So what did this ruling do? So it's building on a couple of different things. Back in 2013, the Supreme Court conservatives ruled that they could take away something called the pre clearance clause. Now, the pre clearance clause said that in states where they had a history of disenfranchising black voters, you couldn't just change your maps or change laws and policies around voting. You had to get authorization, you had to get cleared, pre cleared for those changes to make sure you weren't going back and doing more discrimination.

[C]

Right.

[D]

So that was more than 10 years ago. Now what just happened is they dismantled Section 5 of the Voting Rights act, which basically said that if there was a discriminatory what the clause is trying to say is if you draw congressional maps in such a way that it dilutes minority or black voting power, that's not okay. And all you had to do to make your case was prove the impact, prove that you were diluting the black vote. What this latest ruling did is say it's not enough to prove impact. You have to prove intent. In other words, you have to prove that racism was in their hearts when they drew those congressional districts, which, of course, is almost impossible to prove because people, most people, aren't dumb enough to say, I hate black people, therefore I'm drawing the map this way.

[C]

Right.

[D]

That's what they want. That's what you have to essentially prove in court now with this latest ruling.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You have so many racist people that use the thing. Well, I don't see color.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I don't have a racist bone in my body. I don't care if you're purple.

[D]

Like, they, like, they say all these

[A]

things while being so race. Like race. Like, I remember in 2020, during the wave of Black Lives Matter protests that I went in my small town, Tennessee, the amount of people that showed up to counter protest us and stood defending a Confederate statue, waving Confederate flags, saying racist things about George Floyd and, like, literally calling some of the black people on our side monkeys.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Double down. That they weren't racist.

[C]

Oh, my gosh.

[D]

Wow.

[C]

Wow. I mean, like, Jamar, you gave me a good analogy that, that really put this in perspective for me, which was it's like getting rear ended, you know, at a traffic light. And. And the driver who hit you, having to. Has to be proven that he did it intentionally, not by accident. That's. That's the standard that now these states or these people have to make when it comes to challenging these redistricting maps, which makes. Which is crazy. And that is why. And I want your thoughts about this. I was getting dinner with Matthew Taylor last night. Him and I hang out every now and then. And he made the point that usually justices release their rulings in June or this summer, and that they released this ruling early to let states do the redistricting. Right, in time for the midterms. Right? Because there was this big hope of a blue wave coming, right? Because of all, obviously, Trump is unpopular, yada, yada, yada. And now all of a sudden, thanks to this ruling that came out in May, not in June or July, like normal came out early, now these states have these laws ready to go to start redistricting to erase black representation.

[D]

That's exactly right. The timing of this is diabolical. The first thing I want to say is there can still be a blue wave and voting still deeply matters because what they did dilutes the vote. It doesn't dismantle the vote. And the numbers don't work if there is a massive turnout. These gerrymandered districts, the way they're drawn, are counting on historic levels, historical, like past levels of voter turnout. But if voter turnout is way higher, you can begin to turn the tide and you can get unexpected results. So don't give up, don't lose hope, because hopelessness is the ally of authoritarianism. So I just want to say that. But yes, the timing, all of this is very strategic. I don't know what do they have like a Slack channel or a group chat? Because all the far right is in formation, they are ready to go. And so what happened was this ruling came out, which was off calendar, right off schedule. And then what happened, Louisiana, Tennessee, Alabama, within a week had called special sessions, had redrawn their maps, had written out Democratic districts, because that's the other thing. So this Supreme Court ruling said you cannot draw congressional districts to favor or disfavor any particular racial or ethnic group. Which sounds good until you realize the way they're using it is they don't want to correct past oppression which was based on race. So they don't want to take race into account. But they did say you can draw partisan maps so you can gerrymander districts to favor one party or another. So these Republican led states all came back together and in Louisiana they canceled the voting that was already taking place and postponed everything. And then in Tennessee and Alabama, they redrew congressional districts to dilute supposedly just Democratic districts. But they also happen to be majority black districts as well. Here's the other thing that we gotta realize. I looked it up, and with Louisiana in particular, but also other Deep south states, they have never elected a statewide politician who was black from a majority white district.

[C]

Wow.

[D]

White people in certain parts of the country, and especially the Deep south, do not vote for black candidates in such numbers that they would actually elect a black candidate. Right. So when you redraw these districts, it's, it's effectively meaning black people have no political representation in the states that have the highest concentration of black people.

[A]

Which is so wild to me because so many of these states, like the, the, the black representation that is in the House, in the state House is so minimal anyway. It's, it's small enough that they're not, they're not swaying votes. They don't even really, they have representation. They have a voice at the table, but they don't really have the power. And to take just the voice away is so, it's just, it's so infuriating and so messed up. And I'm curious how, how do you respond to people? Because I've gotten into some tiffs on the Internet over this whole thing because it's obviously very racially motivated regardless of what they say. But you have a lot of conservatives that come in the comments that are like, oh, so you want to redistrict based on race. That makes you racist. And, and it's like, this is actually a good thing in progress and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, have you found an effective way to get through to people that are just hell bent on not seeing the gravity of this situation?

[D]

Well, let me say one more quick thing about timing and schedule and off schedule. Remember all this was sparked last year when Trump told Texas to go ahead and redraw their districts. That's very unusual because typically it happens only every decade after the census comes out and you have new demographic data that you use to draw districts.

[C]

Right.

[D]

So none of this should be happening.

[C]

Right, Right.

[D]

Is what we should remember. Like this is not normal politics and we just now have these far right strong arm tactics. No, everything is being dismantled. Is, is being intentionally done differently in order to favor Republicans. Because here's the thing. They know they can't win on their policies.

[C]

Right.

[D]

They know the majority of people in the United States, even conservatives, don't agree with what they're doing.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

Not in sufficient numbers to elect them to state and national office. So that's the thing. Now as far as being persuasive. No. Because I don't know enough about, you know, the psychology of cults to say, but it sure seems like this is not a case of they just need better information. What I've focused on is trying to activate the apathetic voter. The voter who says both parties are equally dysfunctional, who says it doesn't matter if a Democrat or a Republican is in office because my life still sucks regardless.

[C]

Right.

[D]

The voter who says my vote doesn't count, I'm in a deep red state or whatever it might be. Here's the thing, folks, they would not be working so hard to suppress your vote if your vote didn't matter.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Why would they be going to all this trouble?

[A]

That's kind of the silver lining that I'm seeing in all of this. Like it sucks and it's infuriating and it's going to be a little bit of an uphill battle. But I genuinely believe that this is a last ditch effort from the right. Because they're losing influence, because they're losing the culture wars. Because I think a lot of them view this Trump turn as their last chance to gain lasting power. Because Trump is so unpopular, even a lot of his own die hard MAGA people are turning against him now. And I really just believe they're, they're, they're having to cheat in, like they have to cheat in order to win because their policies and what they're doing is so unpopular that I do think that pendulum is going to swing. It might get worse before it gets better, but I really, I really do believe it's going to get better because they would not be trying this hard if they didn't see the writing on the wall.

[D]

And I hope they know, I hope, I hope we have the politicians who are going to hold them accountable.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

Because here's the thing. So much of what we're seeing is because we didn't hold confederates accountable.

[C]

Exactly, exactly. Or the insurrection. Like, look how, look at how Brazil treated Bolsonaro, who incited an insurrection. That man's in prison. That man is not dealing, he's not running for, for president again in Brazil. But with Trump, what did we do? Well, you know, it's not really what you think. And you know, what was it Colorado ruled he could be on the ballot. Like, like we didn't hold anyone in that world who promoted a blatant lie that led to an insurrection. I think it's the first time in U.S. history there was, there was not a peaceful transfer of power, if I'm not mistaken.

[D]

Yeah, at the federal level. Yeah, right.

[C]

Yeah, at the federal level. Like the first time in our nation's history that happened and Trump was able to run again and was able to win again. Like, what do we, what do people expect is going to happen when you have this history with multiple felonies and in the Epstein guys, we've been here all day laying, you know, checking off all the lists. But you get my point, right? And so I, you know, maybe Jamar might be good because you did this on with me a couple of days ago, weeks ago, and you don't think of the full version if you don't want to, but you can, if you'd like. Can you kind of give us the history of this? Like, how did we kind of get here and why? And this is so important for Our audience show us why this is not new. Too many people, and I'm guilty of this, think that this is like unprecedented. Whoa. This has never happened before. No, this, there's a pattern in American history that's been doing this. And the sooner you see it, the quicker. Quicker you can fight against it.

[D]

Yeah. Thank you for giving, you know, the historian a space to geek out on history here. Of course, the fundamental thing that we have to realize is that voting has always been the gold standard of citizenship. The, the sort of crown jewel of being a citizen was that you had the right to vote, which meant you had a say in who governed you and how they governed. So it's always been held up, it's always been valued, but it's also always been withheld from people who were deemed undesirable. So let's take black people in the long history of voting rights there. So all the way from the Declaration of Independence, you have this question, this tension, the hypocrisy. Right. It's important for us to remember this as we're in America 250 right now, the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. Well, we all know that famous line, we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. Among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Well, many, many questions, many, many issues within just that one phrase about who counts.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Who has these unalienable rights?

[C]

Who is a man. Right, Exactly.

[D]

Who is a man. And from the roots to today, the who that counted without question, the only who that counted without question was white, wealthy and male. That's who was included. Everyone else, it's been contested. Indigenous women, black people, you name it. Right. So then you move on to even the U.S. constitution, because the Declaration was 1776. The Constitution wasn't ratified until 1789. And what did it say? Well, it had this issue with representation. That's today. Right. Congressional districts are about representation in the US Constitution. They were addressing representation. They were like, well, how do we determine the number of people in each state such that we know how many representatives they can send to Congress? So then they come up with something called the three fifths compromise. The numbers sell quote, be determined by adding the whole number of free persons. Who are they? White people, including those bound to service for a term of years. What does that mean, service for a term of years? Indentured servitude. But then it goes on to say, and excluding Indians, indigenous people who are not taxed. And then the three fifths, part three fifths of quote, all other persons. Who are the all other persons, those are the enslaved. They wouldn't use the word slavery, right? So this already tells you they got. They got language to get around the racial stuff, even in the Constitution, even in the 18th century. Then you move up forward to the 1850s. In 1857, there's this case called Dred Scott v. Sanford. And that was a ruling that literally said that black people had no rights, which the white man was bound to respect. That is a quote from the majority opinion brought down by Chief Justice Roger Taney. The Dred Scott decision essentially said that black people were not citizens, therefore they couldn't sue. So that tossed out the Dred Scott case. But also it said, you don't have the right to vote. Right? You're not a citizen, you're property.

[C]

Right?

[D]

You don't have the right to vote. That is widely viewed by lawyers and historians as the worst or one of the worst Supreme Court rulings. But it didn't stop there. So then you get the Civil War, just a few years after the Dred Scott decision. And the Emancipation Proclamation did not, quote, unquote, free the slaves. That actually took a constitutional amendment, the 13th amendment, ratified in 1865, that abolished slavery, except if you were convicted of a felony, which lived the convict leasing all those other things. But 13th Amendment abolished slavery. 14th Amendment, which was 1868, that granted citizenship and equal rights. That was specifically because of the question of what to do with recently freed black people who prior to were not counted as citizens. So they said, well, look, if you were born in this country, you are a citizen automatically. That was the 14th amendment, which is also now being questioned. They want to repeal that. They want to repeal birthright citizenship. And then finally you get the eight, the 15th Amendment, which was ratified in 1870, and that gave black men the right to vote. So going all the way back, it should have given everyone the right to vote, men and women, but it gave black men the right to vote. And that should have been the end of the story. But it wasn't. Just two more quick historical points, please.

[C]

This is really helpful.

[D]

After the Civil War, after these reconstruction amendments, 13, 14, 15amendment, we have this very brief window we call reconstruction 1865 to about 1877. And that is when you get this flowering of black political participation. You get black men registering to vote. You get black men elected to office, senators, congresspeople, even briefly, in Louisiana, they had the first black governor. And so There was all this participation, black political participation. Then what happened? Then you have the Compromise of 1877, where Southerners gave a very close election to President Hayes in exchange for removing federal troops from the South. What were those federal troops doing? They were enforcing the Reconstruction Amendments. They were ensuring that black people had their rights in a region that continued to cling to its white supremacy. Right, right. And then this is a national thing, because Northerners were more concerned about reunion with the south and commerce with the south than they were about black rights. So it's not just about the South. So then after 1877, you get this period we call Jim Crow. And so you get things like Plessy B. Ferguson, which enshrines, quote, unquote, separate but equal. But also you get the repeal of black voting rights and black politicians. And so you come up with things like poll taxes, where you have to pay to vote. You come up with things like the grandfather clause. Was your grandfather free or enslaved? Based on their status is whether you get the right to vote. And you have things called, like, literacy tests. But it even gets more than that. Right. Like, there was. There was one where they. They required you to count the number of bubbles in a bar of soap, and only if you got the number right could you vote. That was one of the tips.

[C]

What? But you could argue it's colorblind, Right, Right, exactly. I think it's worth highlighting here. I think it's worth just highlighting for the audience. Notice how even those things. A literacy test doesn't say black people can't vote. They're hiding behind something else. There's a pattern there.

[D]

Exactly. So you get this period of Jim Crow all the way up to what we now know as the civil rights movement. 1954, you get Brown v. Board. 1955, you get the lynching of Emmett Till, you get Montgomery Bus boycott. And all through that period of the civil rights movement, one thing they were consistently seeking was voting rights. And it wasn't until 1965 that you get the Voting Rights Act. So it's a decade of activism, y'. All. We got tired after one summer in 2020.

[C]

Yep.

[D]

They were mobilizing for 10 straight years. And then the only reason the Voting Rights act could pass then was because something called Bloody Sunday.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So that happened in early 1965 when marchers decided to march from Selma to Montgomery. They were crossing the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma when they were met by police officers who had fire hoses and tear gas and batons and violently beat back those peaceful marchers in what became known as Bloody Sunday. Lyndon B. Johnson, who was president at the time, jumped on this moment to send a bill to Congress to say, now's the chance when there's national outrage around what they've seen on Bloody Sunday. Let's capitalize on this moment. And then later that year was able to sign the Voting Rights act into law with people like Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks standing beside him. And that was a crowning achievement of the civil rights movement. And that is what this court under John Roberts is dismantling. And it is absolutely infuriating because I won't even say our ancestors, because this is only 61 years ago. This is in living memory. These people are still alive. They fought, bled, and some of them died to secure the right to vote. That is now being stripped away systematically by the Supreme Court and others.

[E]

Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time. It takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors together. I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit theneweevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.

[C]

I mean, thanks for sharing all that. I just, you know, one of the benefits of doing long form content is that we can get granular and we need to, because too many people, even people who mean well, you know, don't understand the gravity of these rulings because it's easy with hindsight, right? 2020, to look back and think to yourself, oh, I would never be on. I would always be on the side of MLK if I was alive back then. But if you're quiet today, if you're like, well, both sides today, you would be the same way. You, you are now back in the 60s, 50s and 40s, et cetera. And I, I think too many of us, and look, I, I think this is a human thing. I do this, we want to altruise ourselves, that we would, that we would always be on the right side of history.

[D]

Right.

[C]

But the reality is whatever you're advocating for now is what you'd be advocating for back then. And the sooner you realize that, I think just, it makes it so much cleaner of a decision of what side of history do you want to be on now? What side do you want to be advocating for now? Because you're right, these states had these plans ready to go. And I think also what's frustrating, I would love your, your expertise on this. I'm under the impression that Virginia put on the ballot box to redistrict. The voters approved it. But was it the Virginia Supreme Court that then struck it down, the redistricting, is that correct?

[D]

Yeah, that one's particularly galling because they put it up for a vote statewide and statewide people in Virginia said, let's redraw their maps to have fairer representation. And that is what their Supreme Court struck down. They said the will of the people. We don't actually need that. We the people doesn't really need mean we the people. It means we with the power. Right. We're going to do whatever.

[C]

Tennessee legislature, legislators, they, they redistrict immediately. And I believe it was Justin Pearson. I think that all of his committees have been stripped from him, like without. There was no vote on that. There was no will of the people. It was just done. So why are they able to do that in Tennessee? But in Virginia they have to abide by the Supreme Court ruling. Can't the state legislators say, okay, thanks for letting us know, we're still going to redistrict anyway because look at what Tennessee did.

[D]

Yeah. So. So what you're hitting on is, is a key point, that's actually a point of, of maybe hope and, and action for us is that much of what happens with elections is at the state level.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And that is on purpose, that is to prevent a corrupt federal government from pulling all the levers and rigging elections or gaming the system. Now they're still doing it because essentially when you have bad faith actors, they can come into a system and corrupt it no matter what. But, so what's happening at Virginia and Tennessee and even in Louisiana, it's all slightly different, but basically it Comes down to the state level Congress, the state senators, state representatives, what they can do and the ways that they go about deciding it. Now, Virginia had to have this huge campaign to get a statewide referendum to have it go to the people and not just stay in the state house. Other states didn't do that. And so then they can just get. Call a special session together. They have a Republican supermajority. They can just redraw the districts. Now, there are other levers. You know, the governor doesn't have to sign the, the, the bill that comes out of the state congress. They can veto that. They can make it harder. But here's the other thing they did in Tennessee for any Democrats who protested the redrawing of the maps, which had everything to do with Memphis. Right. Memphis, Tennessee, like Nashville, where the capital is, it's got diversity. Right. But yeah, the thing is, they were. Memphis is 60% black. So they were trying to dilute black voting power there. And I think that's really important to remember. It used to be one district. They split it into three. That's called cracking. And so when you crack a cluster of Democratic or black voters into smaller pieces, that dilutes their power. They can't be a majority in any one of those districts or they can pack the district, which means, well, you have a limited number of black people or Democrats. We put them all in the same district so that they can at most only win one district. And that way we still have all the power. So that's. They were, they were doing the cracking thing with Memphis. And then what they did, for any Democrats who protested this gerrymandering, they stripped them of all their committees. Yeah, they took, you're showing here pictures of Justin Pearson confronting the sergeant at arms. Somebody put this picture in black and white. It looks like it could be ripped right out of the 1950s or 60s. That's why I say this is the civil rights movement of our day, because even the physical images are so reminiscent of more than half a century ago. Right, right. So there's now reprisals, though. So in Tennessee, they said, well, if you were protesting what we did, we are actually going to punish you by taking you off of all of your committees. And so they just did that a couple of days ago. Which means, you know, all, all the power, where the decisions are made, where, where, where things go from a committee into the main body. These Democrats are not in them anymore.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And that's a pure act of reprisal.

[A]

But it's not authoritarianism, right?

[C]

No, no, no. This is totally free and fair, obviously. Can I ask you a question, Jamar? And, you know, I know you said scholars like to be a little more measured in your responses, and that's fair. I get it, you're scholars. But I don't have to do that. I say this only because of the moment that we're in. What is stopping Democrat majority states and legislators just to start playing hardball and doing the same thing? I don't say that in Glee. I don't say because I want to happen. But at some point, these, especially these, like establishment Dems, have got to stop trying to play footsies and be the, quote, unquote, bigger person against fascism. Because one thing that people don't recognize is that fascists, especially white Christian nationalists, are not looking to compromise or to play ball with their political opponents. They do not care about that. Right. And I think one of the fatal flaws of, like, your Newsom types and whatever else, you know, you know, you know, I'm thinking about Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer, all these folks, is that they're trying to be like, well, we are still the party of, like, respectability. We're still the party who wants to do things the right way. I respect the sentiment, but also read the fricking room. The House is on fire. You have to resort to more drastic measures. What's your opinion on that?

[D]

So, yeah, the Democrats, especially at the national level, have been slow on the uptake, slow to recognize that the other side is not playing by the rules. And it's going to require different tactics, but, you know, it's not uniform. I mean, that's what Gavin Newsom and California did. They said, well, okay, if Texas is going to redraw its maps, which they did, then we're going to redraw ours. And we're a. We have a lot of representation. And so if we redraw or gerrymander these districts, then to favor Democrats, y' all are going to pay the price come Election Day as well, at the midterms. So there have been Virginia was, was a response to that as well. Other states are considering redrawing their maps as well. But it's this whole mess that, again, Trump initiated last year when he told Texas to redraw. This was not the thing that states were doing. It's almost like Iran, right? Like, why didn't other presidential administrations go to war with Iran? Because they knew they would close the Strait of Hormuz, oil prices would skyrocket, it would destabilize the entire Region. They recognized the consequences. Trump only sees one step in front of his face. He only sees his face because he's always looking in the mirror, doesn't recognize the repercussions. So why didn't other presidents tell all the states to gerrymander their districts immediately so that they could win the next election? Because it would trigger this tit for tat across all 50 states, which is what we're seeing now. Now, the best solution is probably eliminate all gerrymandering.

[C]

Right. That'd be great.

[D]

A third party in there to ensure non partisan, non biased maps. Right. But that's not where we are right now.

[C]

Yeah, no, that's helpful. Yeah. I mean, even George Bush didn't invade Iran. I mean, come on, if Warren Terror Bush isn't going to invade Iran, Trump, like, maybe there's a reason. And he had, if anyone had had the reason to do it, it'd probably be Bush. And even he was like, nah, that's a bridge too far for me.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, goodness. So, you know, if people, again, Jamar, like, thanks for explaining all this. And friends, Jamar's gonna hang on the show and hang out for the rest of our segments here today, and we're gonna have a good time. But I wanted to, we wanted to bring Jamar on to kind of give a slay of the land. What can folks do? I'm sure folks are like, okay, say less. I'm in. What do I got to do? Is it just, is it awareness? Is it like local politics? What can I do to fight against what's happening? Give me some recommendations. I would love to know.

[D]

So there, a lot of this depends on the right people getting into political power. But, but, like, one of the things that has to happen is we've got to revise the rules about the Supreme Court itself.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[D]

Like, we got to, we got to talk about term limits. We got to talk about expanding the court. We got to talk about oversight, because the only oversight of the Supreme Court is the Supreme Court. Like, they're supposed to police themselves, which obviously isn't happening. We can go all the way Back to Mitch McC Connell withholding the opportunity for Obama to appoint the next Supreme Court so that they could wait until the next person came in. Right. And pack the court with conservatives. Right. So we got to revise those kinds of things. I think in the short term. To your point, Tim, Democrats have to play hardball. You know, we've got to do whatever it takes to win the midterms. And then at least be able to block some of this legislation, most likely in the House of Representatives. The Senate is a much longer shot. We cannot give up hope on voting. And we, in my view, spend much less time on trying to persuade the Republican or the white Christian nationalist. Spend much more time on trying to activate voters who did not vote.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

Just did not participate. Got to get them moving. And then lastly, there's real, like, think about what you would have want to done, what you would have wanted to do during the civil rights movement and do it now.

[C]

Yep.

[D]

Like literally.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

If this is the modern day civil rights movement, what do you say you would have been doing in 1950 or 1950s and 60s? Do that now. So for me, this weekend, I'm dropping everything. There is a march called All Roads Lead to the south and we're going to Selma to recreate the march across the Edmund Pettus Bridge. And then we're going to go to Montgomery and hold some rallies because this thing has everything to do with the 1965 Voting Rights act, which was sparked by Bloody Sunday in Selma. So we're going back there and I want to be able to say, I marched at the All Roads Lead to the south event. I want to be able to say in Kentucky, we've got elections coming up. This, this coming Tuesday. I want to be able to say I researched my candidates, I voted, I told other people about it, I volunteered. Those are the. Look, y', all. It is civic participation.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[D]

Do not fall for the idea that the far right is all powerful and omnipotent.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

They only win when we stop trying.

[C]

Yep.

[D]

Yep. So don't stop. Try everything. We're in the try everything phase.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[D]

See what works. So that's where I think we can take action.

[A]

When is the march in Selma for those that if they're nearby, they can go.

[D]

If you're nearby, it's this Saturday, May 16, so it'll be all day there. And you can go to the website AllRoads. LeadToTheSouth.com AllRoads LeadToTheSouth.com Love that.

[C]

Yeah, that's really, really good stuff. Yes. And vote. Absolutely. That does give me hope, Jamar, is that Trump's approval rating is super low. The majority of the policies that these white Christian nationalists want are incredibly. I mean, who wants to repeal the 19th amendment? Like, very few people want to repeal the 19th amendment, you know, so that gives me hope. And also that hope needs to be turned into action because Christian nationalists do not care about majorities or democracy. They care about getting access to power. They don't care if there's only 10 people in the world who want to repeal the 19th Amendment. If they're in power, they will still try and do it for the whole world. They just don't care. So, doing what you can, friends, registering to vote if you haven't registered, making a commitment to vote no matter what in local elections. These are the bare bones civic duties that you have to your neighbor, especially for your Christians out there who believe that one of the greatest commandments is to love your neighbor as yourself. This is an easy, necessary way to show that you care about all of your neighbors by voting accordingly, looking at who is doing what and voting those values, that is so, so important. So, okay, let's do this. April, unless. Jamar, do you have something you want to add?

[D]

The last thing I'll say is I want folks to understand that black folks are activated.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

This is personal.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

A lot of people have said, especially during the second Trump administration, like, where are black people? We need Kamala Harris to come out. We need Barack Obama to come out. We need all these black leaders to come out. And black people have practiced sort of strategic disengagement from some of this because we told y', all, we told y'. All, we told you what was coming. We've been telling you. We got out in 2015, 2016, 2017. We marched for Black lives. We got out in 2020, and we marched for George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery. We told you in our voting. Right. And even black men voted for the Democratic candidate for president at the second highest rate of any demographic. Right. And then black women were the highest rate of any Democratic. So we have done our part again and again and again. And so there is a sense that white folks, y' all gotta step up. And that has been the tone for this second round of Trump. But now, I have not seen this much vigor or sustained organizing since the first Trump administration or since 2020. Right. So. So you got to understand, they've. They've awakened the giant here.

[C]

Yep.

[D]

That this thing going on in Selma and Montgomery this weekend, that is black lead. Anybody can participate, but that is black led. I've been in all these zoom calls and meetings and group chats, and y', all, we are calling on the power of the ancestors. We are in the tradition of the black freedom struggle. We understand what time it is. Voting rights are no joke. And if you come for us, we are coming for you in all peaceful manner possible. But that's what's happening. So if you don't feel the weight of this moment, if you don't feel the urgency of this moment, just understand that a historically oppressed people who have always had to struggle and fight for their right to be counted understand this moment and are taking action. And you should. Yeah, that's what I had to say.

[C]

No, I'm with you.

[A]

And we can. I do, I do have hope that, you know, we all come together and we fight this, and it's not like it's not new, you know, there. We could make more progress.

[C]

So I hope. Why people step up, though, man. And I look as someone who is new to the, to the journey himself, who grew up in these spaces. The big illusion, especially going white evangelicals, that you just think that, like, this issue was solved and people are just complaining for no reason. And also, the other hard part that is so hard to get around unless people want to get around it, is even if Trump is bad, well, Democrats are worse. Democrats are always worse. They're always worse than whatever the right is doing. And that's a very hard thing to get around. So I just want to say. And then we will move on to a different segment because we have a lot more to get into today. My only thought to white people is that, like, you need to talk to your white friends and you need to do your own work. Like, read Jamar's books, read the new Jim Crow, read Ibram King, Kendi's book. What's the. He has several that are so good, like, get into the. The work of knowing the history and why this stuff matters. Because once you understand the history or you start to, you start to see the patterns. I think the biggest strength of MAGA is they have, like, this veil over people's eyes where they just, they just can't see what's actually happening because they're so ahistorical. I mean, I didn't even realize until a year ago that my mom was born a couple years right before, you know, the civil rights movement or like, in the throes of that, you know, Jim Crow was still a thing when my mom was like an infant. You know, it's not that far removed. So we have a lot of work to do, but it's time to do that work 100%. So. Okay, April, what do you think? We should probably read a few super chats, and then maybe we'll take a quick break with tne, and then we'll come back and do a, hopefully a more serious. But still we can maybe Laugh a little bit more. Segment with Jamar. How's that sound?

[A]

Fantastic.

[C]

Fantastic. Okay, friends, if you're joining the stream on YouTube, thank you for being here. Please make sure to like this video. There are 220 of you watching and only 81 likes. We can do better. Jamaris here. Let's show some love. It costs you nothing. Move your finger and boop. Hit the like button. It helps YouTube. Recommend it to more people. Same thing on Substack. If you want to re stack this live, that'd be so great. Make sure to subscribe to Jamar's substack Footnotes. It is so good. Okay, you wanna read a few of these? April?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Can you read that? Oh, I got you. Whoop. How's that?

[A]

Oh, there we go. I can read that. From Joseph Compton. The south has been waiting for this moment. They've been stewing in resentment ever since the Civil War ended.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah. See that? From Travis Kanata.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

I moved from NYC to Florida, and it's amazing how much of a dream it is for the south to remove black votes however they can. I've never experienced racism like I did in Florida.

[C]

For some reason, I read his name as Travis Cannoli. I must be hungry. Cannoli sounds great.

[A]

From Dulc Dogen. The gerrymandering lingo reminds me of mega church pastors saying they don't want to tell you who to vote for, but give you a list of points to vote for. That pushes obviously to one candidate. Exactly. They find ways to say things without saying it right.

[C]

One side wants to murder babies, the other cares about life for all. Choose wisely.

[A]

We didn't tell you who to vote for, though.

[C]

Okay, listen, let's take a brief intermission here. Let's hear about the organization that sponsors and produces this show, the New Evangelicals. Then we'll come back. See you in a minute.

[F]

Hi, my name is Angie. I live in southern New Hampshire, and I am a monthly donor to the New Evangelicals. I decided to donate because I've experienced the wonderfully supportive TNE Facebook community. I have been deconstructing and decolonizing my faith, and it's been a tremendously lonely journey because I don't have anyone else to talk to about this. When I joined the TNE Facebook group, I felt so welcomed and included, and I have thought many times I have found my people, and this just feels wonderful. We have all had different experiences with evangelicalism. We are all at different stages in examining our faith traditions. Everyone in the group doesn't share the same spirituality. But the thing that we do share is that we are of one mind and being supportive of each other. I believe in the work that tne is doing. I want others to experience this too. Thanks so much.

[C]

Awesome. All right. Sweet. Okay, so something else happened. Oh, yes. April, go ahead.

[A]

I was just gonna say there's very few things that shock me nowadays with what? Like, I just feel like every new headline is just unbelievable that I've become desensitized to insanity, truly. But this one, my jaw dropped because it was.

[C]

This one. Got me.

[A]

What do you mean? What. What do you mean? You just want to pull up the picture?

[C]

Well, let's start. Let's start with just. Let's tiptoe in. So here's the first picture I want to show people. It's a golden statue of Trump.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. With his fists in the air. I think it's mimicking the assassination attempt. Now, this is awkward enough. This is weird enough, right? I mean, this is, like, clear.

[A]

Not the first golden statue of Trump.

[C]

No. I mean, CPAC 2021, they were ushering in a little golden Trump statue. People were taking pictures with it. But this is weird. But it gets really weird when you see this picture and you realize that the man on the bottom left is an evangelical pastor who is leading the dedication service of this church. Trump, golden statue.

[A]

Do you have the one of him laying hands on the statue?

[C]

I do. Hold on.

[A]

Because that one.

[C]

Then it gets even weirder.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[C]

This is like an AI generated onion headline. His Bible, guys. Okay, for the podcast audience, I need you to really picture this, okay? This pastor has his Bible opened in his hand, and with his left hand is laying hands on this golden statue, praying over it.

[A]

Yeah, they prayed, they dedicated. So that it was like, several evangelical pastors and bunch of other. It was a dedication service of this statue at one of Trump's golf resorts in Miami.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Florida. Yeah.

[A]

Somewhere over there.

[C]

Yeah. Pastor Mark Burns, one of his spiritual advisors, allegedly led. Led the dedication service. Trump did call in. I have a small clip of that that we can play. And then I think it's worth just kind of getting into. I mean, the obvious. You know, the Bible talks about things exactly like this. I mean, almost word for word. It's amazing. You know, it's. It's funny. It's. Hold on. I gotta say this. It's so funny to hear, like, evangelical pastors, like, I'm sure Pastor Mark be like, look, the Bible is the living word of God. It's. It's always relevant in any culture, any context. And here he is. I'm like, dude, for someone who claims that the Bible is the living word of God, there's actually a verse in here that's almost word for word what you are doing. And somehow you can't see the forest from the trees on this.

[D]

It's like shocking to me.

[C]

It's shocking. But I digress. My mind is still just totally shattered by this. So I have a clip. Did I pull the clip? Looking at my screen here, I'm not sure if I pulled the little video of Trump calling in. Let me see if I have it here.

[D]

Let me say this.

[A]

Do you know much about this, Pastor?

[D]

Well, that's what I was gonna say. Well, so, all right, he's black. This is what I wanna say. He's black. This is Pastor Mark Burns. He's been on the Trump train forever. My very sort of callous read of it is this is his ticket to fame and money. That he knew that by shilling for Trump he would get invited to events like this. He would get invited to the White House, he would get news coverage, all of these kinds of things. To be sort of rich and famous, honestly. But here's the other thing that we gotta realize. White Christian nationalism is still white, even in black face.

[C]

Yep.

[D]

So what Pastor Mark Burns is doing is giving cover, racial cover, to white Christian nationalism. Because Trump can go say, see, look, where's my African American? There he is. And point to Pastor Mark Burns to say, hey, I'm not racist. We got black pastors, you know, doing events for me. But it still, here's the thing, we can drag this guy and they don't care. They don't care because he's really not one of them. They don't care because he really doesn't represent them. They don't care because he's useful in certain occasions and certain events like this to deflect accusations of racism or the baldest forms of discrimination. But he's still doing the same work. So he may not be white in terms of his skin color, but he is still parroting the same ideology. So, number one, he's useful to actual European descended white Christian nationalists. But he's also useful because. But, but he also shows to goes to explain how there can be black people and Latino people and others who are still white Christian nationalists not because of their skin color, but because they are parroting the same ideology. That's what I can't get over.

[A]

No, for sure, it's very similar to how patriarchal Pastors will have their women on their arm. And how, you know, they use women like, well, look, my wife's happy. She supports me. We're married to, to justify repealing the 19th Amendment.

[C]

Yes, exactly. This is a very short clip. So Trump did call in. And I think this actually proves your point so well, Jamar, because Trump is going to puff up Pastor Mark Burns here, and you'll see. You know, I think Mark is like, look, guys, I have Trump on speed dial on my phone. And look, I mean, it feels good. I've been shouted out before by people that I respect from the stage. It feels great. Let alone the President of the United States of America on your, in your phone. And here's what he says. Want to thank you. I know it was done from love. And I want to thank Mark Burns, a pastor. He's a good pastor. He's a good man. I've known him a long time. He's been with me from the beginning. Right from the beginning. Maybe about two days later. Right, right, Mr. President. He was right at the beginning. There you go. Just a short clip. Yeah, you can feel the like. And again, like, this is a human thing, but just the, yes, I am important now, you know, and it's interesting. I did a full response to this on my, on my other channel. And one of the things I brought up is I said, and this happens for women, too, and for queer people who are like, on the Trump train. I'm like, don't you guys realize, like, you're one of the first to go? Like, if white Christian nationalists get what they want, Pastor Mark Burns will not be on that podium. You know, Ali Stuckey will not be allowed to tour the country saying her stuff. Right. They will not be around. James Lindsay, the atheist will not be invited to Turning Point USA events to talk about, you know, why Marxism is a problem. These people want to go after the very folks who are doing this work. I just don't know how they don't see it. It blows my mind sometimes, frankly. It's wild.

[A]

Can I, can I make a point real quick? Go back to that picture.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

There are a lot of people online, new, and there's a few articles, too, that the man in the red hat there is allegedly Brock Pierce who actually shows up in the Epstein files. And if it's the same Brock Pierce, which a lot of people are making this connection, in the email, he said to Jeffrey Epstein, I had a great time with the girls. So anyway, if y', all, if I want to look that up, I fact Checked it. There are. There are some articles about it, but yeah. So that guy is there as part of this dedication of this Golden Trump statue. Can I just say.

[C]

You can.

[A]

Do they not have new material? Like, we're recycling stuff from Exodus? Beecher made a joke like, well, you know, there were three people in the audience that refused to bow, and now they're thrown in the fiery furnace. Like, I just, like, it's so on the nose, you know, I just.

[C]

It is.

[A]

They're not even trying to hide it anymore. But anyway, I digress.

[C]

So Pastor Mark Burns went on a show to defend his statement, to defend himself. I wanna play just a minute or two. I mean, it's 11 minutes. Not gonna play the whole thing. I'll just let him speak for himself again, this is not just a Mark Burns thing. This is the attitude of the white Christian nationalist MAGA movement. So here's what he said on this show. First, though, I wanna bring in Pastor

[A]

Mark Burns, who is Donald Trump's spiritual advisor and presided over the unveiling ceremony for this statue earlier this week.

[C]

Pastor, really appreciate your time.

[A]

Thank you for joining us. Tell us about this ceremony then. Earlier this week, it was quite the moment.

[G]

It was, again, I've said it, you know, very publicly. It was one of. One of the greatest honors of my life to be able to dedicate this, you know, this wonderful statue that was created by, you know, Mr. Ash and you know, Mr. Dustin Stockton, you know, Brock Pierce, Yaakov Flinschkin, and you know, Mr. Mr. Friedman, you know, Hershey Friedman. So many. And plus 6,000 plus patriots from around the United States of America who all came together to raise money to celebrate who many believe, and I believe the greatest president in our lifetime, to symbolize patriotism and to symbolize, you know, the will to fight. Remember, he almost died and they tried to assassinate him three times, but this particular statue was about him actually getting shot in the ear and by the hand of God. Barely, barely survived by sheer millimeters of the bullet, just glazing and grazing his ear. And so these patriots from around the world, Sam, everyone who came together from around the world, Jack Daly, to symbolize their love for President Donald trump. Remember, over 6,000 patriots came together. And I was just so blessed to be the President's main point of contact that shared the statue with them as it was brought to me. And I was able to share it with the president. And it took over a year, but we finally got it done.

[A]

And the President actually called into the ceremony. At one point, he gave You a call on your phone. What did he say?

[C]

Pause it there because what we just heard.

[A]

Yeah, it's like that veggie pill someone brought up. The bunny song.

[C]

The bunny.

[A]

The bunny.

[D]

Oh, that's what it was. Okay.

[A]

It's just crazy how relatable veggie tails has. It's like on the do not do list.

[C]

It's so jarring.

[A]

All the things you don't do in the. Like the Bible does. Like building a golden statue is like towards the top of all. Yeah.

[C]

I mean this is the same world that taught me everything could be an idol. Anything can be an idol. Your sports can be an idol. Your phone can be an idol. Anything can be an idol.

[A]

Secular music, the amount of you Caspers that made me try to throw away and like literally burn. Not like CD burn like burn with fire. My secular CDs. Because they'd become an idol.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I'd like just chill with golden statue.

[C]

Not a problem.

[A]

Abuser. Yeah.

[D]

What got me was like he listed off all these names. I don't know who any of those folks were, but I wanted him to know. Like I wanted to say the name Corey Campatori. Does anyone remember who that is?

[C]

No.

[A]

Is he the one that was. That actually died?

[D]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Yes. He's the one who actually was killed in Butler, Pennsylvania on this, this assassination attempt. Right. So they're creating this statue that recreates this fight fight pose that Trump oh so conveniently had right after that. Right.

[C]

With the flag right behind him.

[D]

With the flag right behind it. And yet they never say the Name of the 50 year old man who was actually shot and killed. And I'm like, Pastor Mark Burns, Pastor Mark Burns. Do you actually know his name or. Or do you only know the people, the names of the people who can do you favors and who can platform you and who can shout you out positively on. On national news. And by the way, it's a choice to have a, a pastor do this thing. Like they could have had some of this is at Trump Doral Golf Course. They could have had the like. Like the, the golf course manager do this thing right. Maybe would have even made more sense. But why have a person who is loudly proclaiming his faith and his leadership as a faith leader do this ceremony? Surely they knew what would happen. Whether they agreed with it or whether it was just a bald attempt to get more media attention on this. Could be both.

[A]

Can I say I don't know if either of you watched the boys?

[C]

I don't, I don't.

[A]

Okay, then Then don't. Don't watch it.

[C]

That's why I don't. I hear it's really gratuitous. So.

[A]

And gross. But this season, so the. The same week that this Trump golden statue came out, the episode, there's this character that is basically a Trump, like, person in the show. It's a superhero show. They had that character unveil a golden statue of himself. And can I just say. And you should not watch it again. Don't. I cannot recommend this broadly because it is so violent and disgusting, but I have never seen a show satirize Christian nationalism better than this show. It is like, they reference the Seven Mountain Mandate. They have a character. This. Yes, this is from the show. They have a character in this season that is a pastor that is totally given, like, turned into Trump. And, like, they have. They have done their research. There's got to be a writer that is from that world. It is, like, on point. And I remember, like, the writers were even saying that they're trying to make satire, which, you know, is supposed to make reality more extreme.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And they're like, literally, Trump is doing the things that they wrote a year ago, thinking this. This would never happen.

[D]

This would never happen.

[C]

It's wild. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Mark Burns also did a tweet that I just want to read because it wasn't a tweet.

[C]

It was a novel. It was a novel. This man.

[A]

Let me just read the first part.

[D]

Declare war.

[A]

Though. He obviously, this pastor got a lot of pushback about the golden statue because anyone who's read the Bible can see the problem with playing.

[C]

Even secular folks who, like, saw the Prince of Egypt movie from Disney 25 years ago know about this story.

[D]

Like, that's the one thing they know about Christianity.

[A]

Yeah. So, but it's just. I just thought this was so funny. He says. Today at Trump National Doral, Miami, we witnessed an unforgettable moment with the dedication of the 20 foot statue honoring President Donald J. Trump. Let me be clear. This is not a golden calf.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

I just feel like if you have to stand.

[C]

Finish that, though. What's the next sentence?

[A]

We worship the Lord Jesus Christ and him alone. This statue is a celebration of life.

[C]

I'm sorry I had to pull this up on top of it. Like, it's just. How does he say this when he did that? When he did that?

[D]

My, my, my, my, my, my. We got the evidence.

[A]

I've never had to make a clarification on whether or not something I promoted was a golden gaffe to be Clear.

[C]

This is not a golden gaffe. I think my final thoughts on this. And then we'll get to our last segment, We're Christian belief. And we'll have Jamar respond. Watch this with us. It's a doozy. And then we'll wrap. Look for a lot of us and Jamar, me, you, and April all were kind of in this white evangelical space for a lot of years. And so it is just, like, really difficult to be given these, these absolute moral truths, so to speak, about, like, what God is like and what God demands and how God behaves and, you know, being aware of false idols and idolatry and then watching the same people who taught you those things be totally willing to swallow a 22 foot golden Trump statue with a pastor praying over it, or being able to stomach Trump depicting himself as Jesus. Right. Like, it is. That is what to me is just still in my mind all these years later. Unbelievable for my brain to take in. I mean, it's not like I defected and went like, so far beyond what they taught me. Like, I get that I'm going off of what they taught me, guys, you taught me to look out for men like Donald Trump. You taught me to look out for golden statues that we lay our hands on and pray over. Like, you guys taught me this. And suddenly it's just not an issue if people depict themselves as Jesus Christ because Trump is saving America. It is just, it is something that, like, my brain just short circuits thinking about still.

[A]

Yeah, just does. Did you ever sit through, like, those end times revelation sermon series, and they'd be talking about signs of the Antichrist and that the Antichrist will be so cunning because there's that verse that says he would even deceive even the elect.

[C]

Even the elect.

[A]

Yes, even the elect. And they're like, they said, like, that means that even some Christians are gonna fall for the Antichrist. And I remember back then being like, there's no way. There's no Christian that could ever fall for the Antichrist because it'd be so obvious. It would be so obvious.

[C]

So obvious.

[A]

And I guess, you know, if there's a silver lining, I understand it now.

[D]

I mean, you know, the theology of this matters, right? Like, like the golden calf is, is such this obvious symbol that we can sometimes miss the underlying message of what was going on here. So, so the, the, the Israelites didn't think they were replacing Yahweh. They thought they were. They were giving a visual symbol to their worship. They thought they were being faithful. But here's the thing a lot of what underlies this worship of the Golden Calf was anxiety and uncertainty. So what had been going on is that Moses was on the mountain for a long, long time, and they were like, where's our leader? Where's our guidance? Where's our direction? The future is uncertain. We're surrounded by enemies. We don't know where we're going. So you know what? We need something more tangible. We need something more manageable. We need something that we can see and touch that will give us reassurance, that will calm us down. But it also became, you know, this way of. Of worshiping power instead of truth. They want a God that they can see and touch, but also control and rally around. Yeah. And exchanging God, who does God's own thing, for this manageable idol. That's much less. That's. That's. That's not as big, that is not as unpredictable from their lens because it's a lack of faith, ultimately, not being able to trust God with your future. So you make a God that's much more tangible, much more controllable. And that, I think, is. Is an analogy to what we're seeing among white Christian nationalists. Right. They have this vision of what the United States was and what it should be. They're living in the midst of a time that feels uncertain because of there's this demographic change, there's these social, cultural changes, there's political changes, and they want something manageable and controllable. And so they create a God in this idol that does that for them, that offers all of the things that their insecurities want satisfied. And then they don't even see it as a departure from the faith. They think it's part and parcel of what it means to be a Christian, which is what's so insidious about it.

[C]

Great point. No, that's on the nose. I love that. That's good. All right, friends, let's do this. Do we have two more? We have three more super chats. Let's read these, and then we'll get to our last segment. Here you go. April, can you read that?

[A]

Yeah. From Tandyman 77. I told my pastor about T and E on Sunday, and she watched two videos already. She is going to check out Tim and April's show, too. Keep up the great work, guys. Thank you. And I love that the pastor was a she.

[C]

And if she is. Yeah, yeah. I bet she won't lay hands on a golden Trump statue if she's in Sarasota. We will be live at Harvest Church. This Sunday in Sarasota, Florida, the Tim April Show. So she should come out to that. That'd be awesome. All right, here we go.

[A]

If she's a pastor, though, she's probably got her own church.

[C]

She can take off, call it sick.

[A]

It's cool. Matthew Wright. We hold an interfaith prayer vigil for immigration justice on the steps of the Florida Capitol in Tallah every Sunday at 5. All are welcome. Oh, I wish I was closer to Tallahassee. That'd be fun. Joseph Compton. If you have to say it's not a golden calf, then it is. The man's got his tap shoes on.

[C]

Fair enough. All right, friends, thank you. It's time for our final segment. Let's get into it.

[A]

It's a doozy. It's a doozy today, Christian.

[C]

This is a good one. It's not that.

[A]

That was weird to have Jamar Tisby.

[C]

Yeah, me too. He has no food when he's in four. We'll play the whole thing through, and then we'll go from there. No stops. Buckle up, friends.

[B]

Oh, man, this is. Oh, gosh, this is hard to open. We're gonna pray. Heavenly Father, I ask you, Lord, in Jesus, mighty, mighty name, for you to be my husband. You are my husband. And I ask you, Lord, to just open this can because

[D]

what.

[B]

I know I asked the Lord, but I. That is insane. It was so. God is so good. Do we not understand how amazing our father is? Like, he really is all of us as a church, our groom, our husband, and he just wants to be a part of everything. And now I feel so convicted because, first of all, how did I have such little faith? Like, I really didn't believe that he was going to turn up. And second of all, how do I not bring him into so many aspects of my life when he, God, is so good, have a relationship with him? And not just because of, like, the answered prayer, because he does answer prayers. But, man, it's just such a good feeling to know that he's here. My day is made. Thank you, Lord. Amazing.

[D]

What just happened.

[C]

What? I don't. What did I.

[D]

This is real life. What?

[C]

We only find the thing.

[D]

Oh, my gosh. Here's the thing. Like, I didn't even know if this was staged. Like. Like, you know, as a content creator, she could have set this up for. For just this very thing to happen. But is it.

[A]

Is it.

[D]

Is it Daddy God, or is it hubby God, Right? Like, what is it? Like, because she called on Jesus to be my husband, and then she says Father God, what a great father.

[C]

Yeah, I, I and I. Guys, for the podcast audience, this girl has a jar in her hand and she can't open it. Then she prays, then she can open it. All those words are her thanking God. I also think, look, I fully admit, as a former evangelical, I have definitely had moments like this where I'm like, oh, God is so good. I got a free coffee at Starbucks today. But what that fails to do, it's such a privileged statement. Because if God is opening a pickle jar but, like, won't, like, I don't know, stop an insurrection or stop that bullet from hitting Corey, I don't really know, like, if this God is as good as you think this God is. You know what I mean? Like, it's just when you really examine these kinds of claims, it's so easy for very privileged people that God is so good because my pickle jar got open. Meanwhile, like, people are dying in our streets. People are being kidnapped in our streets because of this administration that most likely her community voted for. And we're supposed to believe that for those people, God's also good. That math ain't mathing for me. Just not.

[A]

I mean, I'm personally glad that God is focusing on the important things, like opening jars because she doesn't have a husband. She needed a husband because she can't open jars, you know?

[C]

Like, do you think her response is real, though? Like, her response is genuine. I think, like, watch it again when she opens it. What do you think? That's got to be real. I think that's real.

[D]

Some of these folks are good actors. I don't know. I think it's probably real because there's probably a whole video there. She looks like she's cooking, and it looks like those are capers or something like that. So maybe it was really a surprise because she's in the midst of something longer. But the thing is, we're in an age where you have to wonder and you have to question, like, Like. Like, the first thing you've got to determine is, is this AI or is this, like, a real human person? And then secondly, you've got to be like, well, did they stage this for the reaction? Like, we would. It would get on the Tim and April show and we'd be talking about it.

[C]

Right?

[D]

Or is it. But then you bring up a good point. It's like, you know, as Christians, we believe God is omnipresent, and God is there in moments big and small. And so it's not like it's Offensive just to say, I need some help with this little thing. And it seems like God shows up, but there's something about this that is kind of reductive, that does make it so that in the grand scheme of things. Oh, is God not caring about what God said? God cared about justice and mercy and using power to help people. But this, this is the way God uses power. And this is what, like, gives her complete and total pause. That's what's really, I don't know, just doesn't sit right, you know, Rachel in the comments said, God opened my jelly jar. Like, like. Yeah, I don't know.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. It's just, it's a thing.

[A]

But for my. Not to be the, the cynical person here, but it always just bothers me too. And this is probably, to be fair, this is from my own, like, trauma of, like, going through, like, my dad dying of cancer and then people telling me, like, God would just give you what you asked for as long as you have enough faith. And then that didn't happen. So, like, I, I are. That, like, made me naturally skeptical because I knew I couldn't have enough faith and God did not answer my prayer. So I. But I also believe that God can intervene. But here's my thing. You have people that, like, I used to work for cbn. I did a story on this kid who had cancer. And the story was that God healed this kid of cancer, but that kid went through a year of chemo. That kid went through radiation and had all the best medical interventions to become, you know, disease free. And I just remember thinking, like, was this a miracle? Because we had medicine and we had doctors and we had all this stuff. And like, for her in that jar, is that God intervening? She was the one that actually opened the jar. Do you know? Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not going to get all, like, theological, but I just, I have problems of, with, like, people that, like. And I understand you want, you want to, like, give glory to God and have faith in God and all of that stuff, but to me, it's just like you said, it just feels reductive when there's people out there, you know, people in Iran that are being bombed almost daily. Like, children. Like, it's hard for me to.

[C]

Some of them are Christians.

[D]

Right.

[A]

It's hard for me to think, oh, God's gonna take time to open this jar but not help the immigrant child that's crying at a detention center right now because they don't have their mom.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you know what I mean?

[C]

Yep. I often tell people that, like, my. My way of, like, sometimes, like, with our. Our youngest, Harper, he's so cute, and he goes to church with my parents, and that's totally fine. And sometimes he'll say, you know, like, oh, like, God healed my boo boo. And I'll say, well, God gave you the band aid that healed your boo boo. You know, like, so, like, I try and, like, link it to, like, a physical thing of, like. Yeah. I think God has given us the ability to develop medicine and technology, and that's the answer to prayers that we have this ability to do those things. Because I'm with you, April. Like, I. I feel that way, too, where it's like, well, like, people are still involved, like the chemo or that girl, as small as it is opening up the jar. But, yeah, I guess you want to say God did it. God gave you the ability to. Whatever. But I hear what you're saying. I hear what you're saying. Not to get too into that.

[A]

Well, I just think, too, if you put too much emphasis on God moving and doing these big miracles, and you take emphasis out of God, bless these people with their talents. God helped the doctor. God put the right people in place. God put the medicine in place. I think you could say that. But to skip that step, I think gives a lot of people false hope and then can make them doubt their own faith when God doesn't answer their prayers.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Thing was, she could have prayed, God, give me strength. But she said, jesus, be my husband.

[A]

That's true.

[C]

It was kind of. Wait, wait, where'd you say that?

[D]

Just.

[C]

Just as she's starting to.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

For you to be my husband. You are my husband, and I ask you, the Lord, to just.

[C]

You are be my husband.

[A]

You are asking, naming and claiming no consent here.

[C]

You are my husband.

[D]

If she gets married to a man right now, is that adultery? I don't know.

[C]

That is some ring by spring action, you know?

[D]

But, yeah, like, she could have just said, yo, give me the strength. Help me do this. But she sort of just implied she needed a man to.

[A]

To do that.

[D]

And I'm like, that wasn't even necessary.

[C]

Yeah, no, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. Also, there's a spoon trick. You get a spoon, you pop it underneath the lid, and it puts air in there, and then it's easy to open. Oh, no husband needed.

[C]

Okay, good to know. I'll tell Sarah that next time. For sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

All right, so we got two more super chats, then we'll wrap up here. I can read these from Bill dreams kindly got in late but looking forward to rewatching this with Dr. Jamar Tisby. Yes, make sure to go follow him on subsec and on all the other socials. Jennifer Hoffman, 30 thank you for the super chat. Same creators and actors. This season is supernatural. That's why I'm not sure what that was in reference to, but thank you so much.

[A]

Oh, I think maybe the boys.

[C]

Oh, the boys. Got it. Got it. Jamar, before we wrap, plug all your stuff. Where can folks find you?

[D]

Yeah, as I said, my substack is jamar tisby.substack.com we are number five in the history category. I break down all the connections from the past to the present. I've been going off on voting rights on civil rights lately, but as well you can catch my solo podcast which is called the Justice Briefing. The Justice Briefing, where it is your weekly guide to current events at the intersection of faith, history and culture. And since we had someone say that they go to the Capitol and pray every week about immigration, I will plug our short documentary. It's called Jesus Was a Migrant. Jesus Was a Migrant. We go down and visit actual migrants in shelters in Ciudad Juarez. We hear their stories. We tell their stories in this film. And we would love for you to check out the trailer and consider hosting a screening. You can find all the information@jesus wasamigrant.com Love that.

[C]

That's awesome. Well, thanks again, Jamar for joining us. It was always a good time. I'm sure we'll have you back on at some point. Friends, thank you so much for watching the show. It means the world. We go live Every Thursday on YouTube and with our friends at Lincoln Square Media on Substack. If you're watching after the Live still, make sure to give this video a like subscribe to the channel. And of course we drop episodes on Tuesdays as well. If you're looking for a better path forward in faith looking for community, check out the New Evangelicals. The free space T and D Connect is beautiful and wonderful. We have tons of scholars, tons of people doing free classes all the time and an amazing social media hub that is not part of meta. It's a really beautiful place. Make sure to go check it out. And lastly, for those of you who are coming, we will see you this Sunday in Sarasota at Harvest Church 10am I cannot wait. It's gonna be so much fun. It's gonna be a great time. So with that being said, I'm Tim Whitaker.

[A]

I'm April Lajoy. That's Jamar Tisby.

[C]

I was gonna have Jamar say it. Let's try it again.

[A]

I know, But I didn't know we didn't queue him up. You're right.

[C]

Let's try it again. I'm Tim Whitaker.

[A]

I'm April Ajoy.

[D]

I'm Jamar Tisby.

[C]

See.

[D]

Sam.