115. What conservatives get wrong about deconstruction and progressive Christianity PART 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tim & April Show, Episode 115 Title: What conservatives get wrong about deconstruction and progressive Christianity, PART 2
Host: The New Evangelicals (Tim Whitaker & April Ajoy)
Date: May 26, 2026

Overview

In this episode, Tim and April continue their thoughtful and often fiery critique of conservative Christian responses to progressive Christianity and deconstruction—specifically engaging with recent statements by conservative apologist Alisa Childers and guests from the "Provoke & Inspire" podcast. They address common claims about biblical literalism, Christian history, queer inclusion, objective truth, and the relationship between faith, politics, and culture. The conversation weaves personal stories, humor, scholarly references, and pointed rebuttals to highlight the dangers of Christian nationalism and challenge simplistic narratives about progressive faith.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Picking Up the Childers Response: Aims and Framing

• Continuation of Critique: Tim and April resume their analysis of Alisa Childers’ critiques of progressive Christianity, emphasizing her background and approach ([02:00]).
  • “Elisa Childers...makes a living telling people how bad progressive Christianity is and is pretty quiet on Christian nationalism. Shocker alert.” – Tim ([01:53])
• Childers’ Arguments Recapped: Focus on her claim that the traditional marriage definition and other longstanding Christian positions have been static for 2,000 years, implying queer and progressive views are radical departures ([03:22], [04:23]).

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2. Historical Consistency and Changing Norms

• Debunking "Unchanging Tradition": Tim points out inconsistencies in Christian history, such as views on birth control and marriage ([04:23]-[06:29]).
  • “The Bible was written arguably over a span of about 400 to 800 years. You don't think that customs have changed?” – Tim ([06:29])
• Scripture and Culture: April adds that ancient biblical texts reflect different sexual ethics and marriage customs, contradicting modern conservative interpretations ([05:38]).

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3. Core Values vs. Fixed Beliefs

• Progressive Focus on Values: Both hosts argue that progressives aim to live out Jesus’ core values—love, inclusion, justice—rather than dogmatic legalism ([08:06]-[09:29]).
  • “I think this is actually a great example of values over beliefs.” – Tim ([08:38])
  • “It was all about how you live, what you do, how you treat people. It was far less about belief...” – April ([08:06])

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4. Biblical Interpretation & Fundamentalism

• Subjectivity of Biblical Reading: Tim criticizes claims of “objective truth” derived from scripture, given differences in translations, manuscript history, and denominational splits ([11:02]).
  • "Don't all agree. We obviously have 40,000 plus denominations...yet you're convinced that you have the objective truth..." – Tim ([11:32])
• God in a Box: April notes how a rigid biblicism limits God's ability to reveal truth beyond a fixed text ([12:48]).

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5. Evolution, Science, and Theology

• Literal Creationism Debunked: The conversation addresses conservative resistance to evolution and scientific perspectives, sharing anecdotes about how evolution was demonized in evangelical circles ([15:51]-[18:25]).
  • “I was always taught you can't be a Christian if you believe in evolution because evolution was from Satan.” – April ([16:46])
• Science and Faith Coexistence: They promote reading resources like John Walton’s The Lost World of Genesis 1, advocating for reconciling faith and science ([18:50]).

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6. The Problem of Certainty and Objective Morality

• Challenging Absolute Certainty: April and Tim discuss the harmful effects of privileging certainty over thoughtful exploration, connecting this to the need for ongoing transformation and humility in faith ([26:52], [27:44]).
  • “If you have a black and white ideology...what faith do you have?” – April ([26:52])
• Morality as Negotiated: Tim addresses the relativity of moral standards, using legal systems and international differences as examples ([14:01]).

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7. Myths About Progressive Christianity & Transgender Issues

• Weaponizing Culture Wars: The hosts repeatedly call out Childers for spreading misinformation about queer and trans people, challenging wildly inflated statistics and scare tactics ([29:09], [32:27]).
  • “A 4,000% increase would bring you from 1% to 40%...The US population is...not suddenly transgender, Elisa, like what?” – Tim ([33:14])
  • “Transing is not a word. Being trans, it’s not a verb. You either are trans or you are not trans.” – April ([37:57])

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8. Critical Theories and Social Justice

• Origins and Misuse: Tim and April explain the misunderstood origins of critical race and gender theories, highlighting how they’re weaponized by the right, not newly invented threats ([38:21]).
  • “Critical race theory comes out of like the 70s and early 80s...long before you started freaking out about it.” – Tim ([38:21])

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9. Certainty, Comfort, and Deconstruction

• Embracing Uncertainty: April shares how deconstruction and a progressive path involve discomfort and ambiguity, but ultimately reflect deeper faith and a pursuit of truth ([41:43], [42:49], [43:25]).
  • “Being...progressive is because you are...faced with realities that our belief system contradicts.” – April ([41:43])

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10. Christian Nationalism, Politics, and Personal Responsibility

• Downplaying vs. Enabling: Tim and April expose how conservative figures minimize or deflect from the real dangers of white Christian nationalism while participating in fear-based politics ([49:24], [50:44]).
  • “That alone is a form of Christian nationalism—that true Christians have to vote this way.” – April ([50:44])
• Dissonance and Accountability: The hosts challenge claims of neutrality and non-involvement, noting that public support for right-wing policies is itself a political act ([52:35]).

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11. Wrapping Up: Titles, Labels, and Living Out Jesus’s Teachings

• Who Defines “Biblical”? The hosts note the irony of conservative leaders who resent being labeled “Christian Nationalists” while using their platforms to police “true Christianity” ([68:49]).
• Call for Integrity: Tim and April urge listeners to see through rhetoric and pay attention to public actions, highlighting the importance of integrating belief and justice ([69:48]-[70:29]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[Alisa Childers] makes a living telling people how bad progressive Christianity is...” – Tim ([01:53])
• “It's not that they take the Bible too seriously, it's that they don't take it seriously enough.” – Tim ([18:50])
• “The Bible literally tells you to question and renew. Like, be constantly changing and evolving and to grow with God.” – April ([26:52])
• “We give these things meaning. The Bible has no meaning unless we give it meaning.” – Tim ([42:17])
• “Transing is not a word. Being trans, it's not a verb. You either are trans or you are not trans. No one makes you trans.” – April ([37:57])
• “Most people that are Christian nationalists...would just say, I'm just being a good Christian. Love God, love people. Exclusions apply, but vote Republican.” – April ([52:35])
• “I think we should always be wary of people who espouse certain beliefs and political ideologies that if they were to renounce those tomorrow would lose their livelihoods.” – April ([70:14])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Alisa Childers’ Conservative Critique ([02:00]–[04:23])
• History and Changing Theology ([04:23]–[06:29])
• Values over Beliefs ([08:06]–[09:29])
• Claims of Objective Truth / Bible Interpretation ([11:02]–[13:30])
• Darwin, Evolution, and Literalism ([15:46]–[18:25])
• Certainty, Faith, and Uncertainty ([26:52]–[27:44], [41:43]–[43:25])
• Transgender “Statistics” and Culture Wars ([32:16]–[34:27], [36:29]–[37:57])
• Critical Race/Gender Theory Misinformation ([38:21]–[39:00])
• Christian Nationalism and Politics ([49:24]–[53:14])
• Final Reflections on Labels & Integrity ([68:49]–[70:29])

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Conclusion

Tim and April offer a challenging counter-narrative to dominant conservative critiques, encouraging thoughtful engagement, historical awareness, and practical compassion in living out Jesus’s teachings. Their discussion underscores the importance of wrestling with ambiguity, continuously learning, and refusing the false comforts of certainty and authoritarianism. With a mix of humor, scholarship, and conviction, the hosts invite listeners to examine the real roots of Christian nationalism and to build a more just, loving, and faith-filled future.

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Note: For further reading, recommended titles include “Marriage in the Bible: What do the texts say” by Jennifer Byrd and “The Lost World of Genesis 1” by John Walton.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Tim and April Show. I am April, A joy of April of the Tim and April Show.

[B]

I am Tim Whitaker of the Tim and April Show. Hi.

[A]

That's great. Hello, welcome. It is another Tuesday, and.

[B]

Which means another video.

[A]

Which means another video. We're getting close to June, though, and summer and.

[B]

Well, it's already summer in New Jersey. Today it's 96 degrees out.

[A]

Ew.

[B]

Ew is right. I hate it. I hate it. Absolutely. I love New Jersey. People who listen to the show know I will defend New Jersey until the day I die. And only I can bully New Jersey. No one else can appear from out of town. But I hate this part of New Jersey. I hate the humidity and I hate the heat in the summer. But it's not even summer yet, so I'm not hopeful for this summer, frankly.

[A]

Yeah, I feel that. I didn't realize it would get that hot in New Jersey, though.

[B]

Oh, in the summer. It definitely does. I mean, my. So me and Sarah got married 10 years ago in July. It was a 98 degree day with 100% humidity and it was an outside wedding.

[A]

Did you play 98 degrees?

[B]

No, we were Christians. We did a foot washing ceremony. Okay, you think we're gonna play 98 degrees?

[A]

Yeah. A little love song.

[B]

No, we played. We probably played Usher and Kesha, you know, more relevant hits.

[A]

But not 98 degrees.

[B]

No, no, that was the limit.

[A]

Bust your line.

[B]

All right. Well, friends, we're picking up from a video that we started responding to two episodes ago, two weeks ago, of Alisa Childers on someone's podcast going after progressive Christianity. And we want to finish it up. Well, we want to try and finish it up. I'm not sure if we'll get through it, but I think either way, this will be like maybe the final video in this segment. Alisa Childers, if you don't know, is a conservative Christian apologist. She used to be in a famous Christian band called Zoe Girl, and now she makes a living telling people how bad progressive Christianity is and is pretty quiet on Christian nationalism. Shocker alert. And has even said publicly that she has supported for. That she has voted for and supports Trump, which of course is even crazier when you think about all the things that she advocates for biblical sexuality while she's voting for a man who openly brags about assaulting women. But I digress.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Wow, wow, wow.

[B]

Wow, wow, wow. So we're gonna finish it up now. We're starting at the 17 minute mark, so it's gonna pick right up where we left off. If you want to go catch up, go back to our previous episode on this. As always, make sure to like and subscribe. If you're watching on YouTube, if you're listening on podcast, thank you for listening. Make sure to download this episode, share it with some friends, leave us a rating and a review. It would help us out immensely. April, are you prepared? Are you ready?

[A]

I remember I was, like, trying wanting to pull my hair out from the first 17 minutes.

[B]

That's why you gotta cut.

[A]

Yeah, there you go.

[B]

All right, here we go, friends.

[C]

And so, and I think for people who are inundated with the cultural definitions of love, where love means acceptance, it means celebration, well, then that makes their version of Christianity more loving. And so I think the why is that a lot of people are deceived into thinking that. And this is the thing where it's such a contradiction, because many progressive thought leaders will claim that progressive Christianity is actually the original version of Christianity, and we're the ones who have hijacked it. But yet, when you bring up the fact that no one in church history until about 100 years ago, and even then, it was not even really ramping up until maybe 15 years ago, 20 years ago, nobody in church history would have defined marriage as anything but, you know, one man and one woman for one lifetime. It just doesn't seem to matter. That's still viewed as the more loving and more original, even though that's not how what anybody believed for 2000 years.

[B]

Okay. All right, Elisa, I'm going to respond to this one because it's such an easy response. I could also tell Elisa that up until about 100 years ago, the church univocally condemned any form of birth control, even the Protestant church. Martin Luther himself said that using birth control is worse than committing incense. Incense, incest. Incense, incest. So my question to Elisa is, are you okay with people using birth control because the church has univocally condemned it because the Bible condemns it? There's a chapter, I think it's Genesis, one of the chapters in Genesis where a man spills his seed to AKA he pulls out and God strikes him dead. And Martin Luther said, look, the Bible's clear. So, you know, the problem that Elisa is going to find is that really, Christian history is pretty rarely consistent on every major issue. And you can also argue that the reason people got married were for completely different reasons than we get married today. Does that make sense? Like the idea of, the idea of a Western language, love based, even monogamous relationship is pretty foreign to the scriptures, especially the Hebrew Bible, especially.

[A]

I don't know anyone who would. I personally don't know anyone that makes, would make the argument that like we're arguing that being queer affirming is the original Christianity. I don't know anyone who's made that claim other than to say that the way that original, like the Hebrew Bible totally condones polygamy and having multiple wives. So there's no, there's no basis for the one man, one woman thing. If you're looking if for especially for people who take scripture literally. But then also if you take in cultural context, the Bible doesn't actually talk about how we would view sexual orientation today. And like just sexuality in general. It was condemning acts that involved power dynamics.

[B]

Read this book, everyone. Marriage in the Bible. What do the texts say by Dr. Jennifer Byrd. This book will blow your mind. It's not an argument for queer inclusion from a Christian perspective. It's just a scholarly deep dive on what the Bible actually says about marriage. What is marriage in the Bible? So spoiler alert. It's not consistent. It's not consistent because guess what, guys? The Bible was written arguably over a span of about 400 to 800 years. You don't think that customs have changed? I mean, think about, think about the founding of our country 250 years ago to now. A lot has changed. A lot. Now think about doubling or tripling that. You're telling me that customs haven't changed, that the way people see things hasn't changed? So the Bible's not univo. Not univocal. But I think, April, to your point, Elisa was trying to make the point that we say that we are practicing original Christianity, yet we have these views that are not historic, meaning queer inclusion. Right. Which I guess what I would say to that is that probably is true. I'm not debating that the church has embraced queer inclusion, but also the blessing of God in the scripture consistently expands outward. And there is a sense of evolution regarding how we understand norms and how we understand morals. And that does shape Christianity, whether she likes it or not. Right. So I have no problem saying, yeah, you're right. But we're still evolving. We're still living out our Christian faith. And depending on our cultural context, that's gonna look different depending on where we live and where we are in history. Right. So it's not complicated.

[A]

I do think as far as, like, how you live out your faith. Progressives are doing the more historical version of Christianity than conservative evangelicals that is much more focused on how you love your neighbor, how you treat the marginalized, how you know, how you actually help people and better this world. Because if you look at the teachings of Jesus, too, especially, it was all about how you live, what you do, how you treat people. It was far less about belief and making sure you check all the right boxes on an ideology, which is what modern American evangelicalism has turned into.

[B]

Yeah. I think this is actually a great example of values over beliefs. We see the values in Scripture, especially in the stories of Jesus, the. The value of love and inclusion and justice and standing with the marginalized. So we take those values and we apply them to our cultural moment. Right, right. Hence queer inclusion. Elisa has a very rigid belief system that is fixed, that is static, and no matter what happens, she always has to hold to these beliefs. And so for her, because the Bible doesn't technically talk about gay marriage in a positive way. I mean, it doesn't talk about it at all. But you get my point. Therefore, she's being historic in her mind, but she's missing the forest from the trees. She's missing the point of what's happening in these stories. Right. We don't have Samaritans today, but we understand the point of the good Samaritan. To love the person that you think is unlovable. Same idea.

[A]

Yeah, well, and she would never use these same arguments when it came to slavery.

[B]

Definitely not.

[A]

Like we would all agree we shouldn't listen to the Bible when it talks about slaves. Obey your masters. But anyway.

[B]

Well, yeah, okay, hold on. While we're here, we have to. We have to say this. But what? They would. And I did this to Ali Stuckey in person. She totally fell for it. I got her to admit that the Bible condoned slavery. Then she said, well, it's not the same kind of slavery that we're used to. It's a different kind of slavery. It's like a bond servant slavery, which is. It's a very apologist argument. It's not even fully true. And I said, exactly, Ellie, you just made the point. You just made the. You just did the logical connection and, and in context evaluation that we use for queer engagement, for queer acceptance. It's the same thing, but she couldn't see it. So. All right, you ready?

[A]

Ready.

[D]

But that makes sense. If you have a malleable view of the Bible, ultimately you've sort of capitulated to the Secular humanist subjectivism that most people live, where you kind of do what feels good, you do what's right for you. You can have your cake and eat it too. And it doesn't, I think, even really bother you, because the second you take truly the only source of transcendent objective truth in reality, which is God, and then the word that he's given us, once you kind of take that off the table, then you're kind of like the rest of secular society.

[B]

Right.

[D]

You kind of have to just make it up as you go because you've lost any objective bedrock.

[B]

Okay, this is this.

[A]

What is this guy's name? I don't want to look it up real quick.

[B]

I found him online. I can try and find it real quick. Why, what's up? Do you know him from somewhere?

[A]

No, no, I'm just curious who he is. Okay, so this is from the Provoke and Inspire podcast.

[B]

He said earlier on our last episode that he grew up that he was a progressive Christian. Then he kind of came back to the fold.

[A]

His name, I think it's Ben.

[B]

I think it's Ben. I actually reached out to him. Yeah, I think that's him.

[A]

Okay, interesting. I don't really know much about him, but.

[B]

So what's. This is the jump that Ben made is the fatal flaw in Christian fundamentalism. The flaw. The fatal flaw is that Ben went from objective truth is what he said about God, and then he said essentially that, you know, given to us in God's word, the Bible. But Ben, which Bible? Which interpretation? Which collection of books? The Catholic Bible, Eastern Orthodox Bible, Protestant Bible. Don't all agree. We obviously have 40,000 plus denominations in Christian sects all arguing over what this book says. Yet you're convinced that you have the objective truth of what the Bible is actually saying. That doesn't even count the reality that we have none of the original manuscripts that we have. We have editors and editors and tweakers and people who are. Who are changing the text, and we have people who are trying to interpret the text in Latin and in Greek and all of this and then into English. You're telling me that throughout all of that, this Bible is the that and how you see it is the only source of understanding God in an objective way. That is a preposterous statement. Preposterous.

[A]

It just puts God in such a tiny little box that God cannot reveal himself outside of this text.

[B]

Right. And I would push back on the. On the objective piece. You know, the idea that this is something outside of our minds. We just don't know. We are trusting the testimony of people who either interpret the Bible or who have written the Bible or who have edited the Bible, that what they're saying is true. We don't fully know. I'm not saying that people can't believe it. They. That people can't subscribe to it, but it's a claim that somehow it's a truth that all humanity must succumb to and must believe in. It's just. It's wild. To me, that is an untenable claim. Untenable.

[A]

Yeah. But you're dealing with people. Cause I was like this too. That are taught you have absolute truth. You are the. We, like, we are the only source of truth. We are the only source of. Of like, pure authority. And you can't listen to anybody else, even if it sounds true, even if it has data to back it up, it's just Satan. And we actually know what is actually true. And we have the only source of God. It's just. It's such a narcissistic way of viewing totally everything.

[B]

Yes. And one thing I think we also have to mention, you know, he kind of hints at like, this really straw man version of like, relativism and everything's subjective. Do what feels good for you. I. This might make people uncomfortable, but a lot of our morals are subjective. Different countries view morals very differently. The standard for murder looks different in different countries. The standard for a conviction of murder looks different in different countries are in America. White collar executives can steal from the poor, that's fine. But if a poor person steals from a convenience store, they're imprisoned or they're fined. Right. Like we do, we do negotiate how a society will view morals and how. And how we impose them. That's just a reality. Maybe, you know, you could make the case that there are some very consistent bedrock ideas of like, you know, you shouldn't kill people. But even then, look at America. Look at the. Look at the president that at least has voted for killing children in Iran. So I'm just making the point that, you know, we do. We do negotiate some of this stuff, whether we like it or not.

[E]

Okay.

[C]

And I think for progressive Christians, too, one element that I think is important to talk about is that a lot of progressive theology and some progressive thought leaders will actually say this outright is really built upon an acceptance of Darwinian evolution. And that might seem out of left field, but it's actually quite important because if you think about the Darwinian paradigm, there's no fall. Right. There's no Adam And Eve as, or at least as the sole biological progenitors of the human race, rebelling against God, introducing sin and death into the world and spreading that to their offspring, which makes it all the way to us.

[A]

I sometimes forget that there are still people that believe in a literal six

[B]

day creation story, in a literal biological Adam and Eve that we all came from. Okay Alisa, riddle me this. If marriage is between one man and one woman for life, and that's how God set it up in the very beginning, why would God also set it up? So that wasn't feasible in order to populate the earth. It's impossible. And then also there's incest happening. Like can we just name that there is incest happening in the first generation of humanity. But God said that was sin. That makes no sense.

[A]

Well, they would say all was different back then.

[B]

Yeah, okay, so that would be the

[A]

one time they used that line.

[B]

Wait, so it's not morally objective, relatively accurate then it's subjective and relative.

[A]

Yeah, I think they'd say that.

[B]

Right. That's the craziness here. And by the way, abroad, I'm not sure about you, but I thought about that when I was like 15, I was like wait a second.

[A]

Oh yeah. I remember being told like, well God works in mysterious ways and there's things that our finite minds will not understand of an infinite God. Can I just say I was actually in Bible. I was in a Christian college and a Bible class reading about it was, I think it was Old Testament class and we, we were actually taught. And now to be clear, the, my professor was, I think she was, she was pushing more of the six day creationism. But she said she gave, she went through all of the different beliefs that Christians have and many of. And like there were several that also include evolution, Big Bang. And she said that she actually leans more toward believing that the Big bang is Big Bang is probably tr. And what happened. And she was just saying how the Bible actually can coexist while believing in evolution. Like it's not anti science and that. And I remember being just absolutely shocked, like shocked that there were Christians that believed in evolution because I was always taught you can't be a Christian if you believe in evolution because evolution was from Satan. And I remember hearing some people that wouldn't even believe in dinosaurs because they thought that led people to believe in evolution. And then I remember being like, well what about the fossils? Someone legit told me that Satan buried fossil bones to trick us into believing that dinosaurs were real magically.

[B]

Yeah, like believe that. But don't believe the scientific consensus. Don't believe that. Believe that a magical entity magically put fossils in the ground when you couldn't look or see it.

[A]

Like, we tried. We do too much. These people are doing too much. You can. You can just accept, like, it is so much easier to believe that the Bible and science coexist because it absolutely can and does. If you don't. If you are not so rigid and believe in a literal Bible, which, to be clear, even people that claim to be biblical literalist don't take the Bible literally because it's impossible to.

[B]

Right. You still have to pick and choose. A great book for people who want a. A nice introduction into this by a conservative Christian scholar is the book the Lost world of Genesis 1 by John Walton. I've interviewed him a couple times on the TNE podcast years ago. He would hold some view of biblical inerrancy. He's not progressive. I'm telling you guys. Elisa isn't even conservative. She's a fundamentalist. Fundamentalism is laughed at by even conservative evangelicals globally. They. Michael Byrd is a conservative evangelical scholar in Australia. He finds Elise's views on biblical inerrancy and a literal biological Adam and Eve frankly, preposterous. Because what if, call me crazy, the different creation stories, Genesis 1 and 2, which are not the same, they're different and they contradict. What if the point isn't the camcorder footage? What if it's not about, did it really happen? What if there's a deeper allegory or allegoric, I guess, meaning happening underneath of all that. That's why I always say, like, my problem with fundamentalism is not that they take the Bible too seriously, it's that they don't take it seriously enough. Yeah, they don't take it seriously enough. They totally butcher the beautiful nature of what's happening in these. In this compilation of texts. Okay, sorry. Fired up about this. It just drives me bonkers. Shall we? We shall like and subscribe. Thank you.

[C]

So in Darwinian evolution, you don't have a fall. So you don't have this inherently fallen nature with human beings. So on that view, human beings are sort of evolving morally. So it's not that we're fallen and need to be redeemed. It's that we're sort of coming from this animalistic state into this more enlightened. We're progressing. Right, Right. In fact, Brian McLaren called it a higher and wiser view of God. And so on that view, on that basis, then we would know more than Christians who wrote the Bible. We would be more morally enlightened than even the ancient Israelites.

[B]

Yeah, most of us nowadays, we do

[A]

know more nowadays than they knew. We have electricity.

[B]

Why is this controversial? There's no word in Hebrew for brain. Doesn't exist because why would you have a word for that we don't have. You know what I'm saying? Just to give you an idea of how different, by the way, matter of smarter or dumber. It's just a matter of different. Like the ancient world is different. And yeah, most people today hopefully don't think that we should be enslaving folks. That would be nice. You know, most of us stopped killing animals as a blood sacrifice to God. We've, we've, we've changed, we've progressed now. We've also regressed, to be clear. I mean, humanity has done terrible things as well. So it's kind of a mixed bag. But this idea that, like, Elisa's so shocked that we know more today than the ancient Israelites know, I don't know why that's so controversial.

[A]

I mean, like, objectively, us as a human race know more today than we knew 2000 years ago. Medical research, like so much technological advances, like, we just know more. Like, well, maybe we know less, like when it comes to surviving, like out in the wilderness.

[B]

Right, right. Yeah, yeah. It's still a net gain, I would argue, though.

[A]

Yeah,

[C]

we can look at them. And that's where that view of the Bible in progressive Christianity is so important to understand because they're not viewing what Moses wrote as God speaking.

[B]

Right. Because Moses didn't write those books like most biblical scholars would agree. How does Moses write his own death and where he was buried?

[A]

How he came back as a ghost for real?

[B]

How would Moses write his own death and where he was buried?

[A]

How?

[B]

How? Just use basic rational faculties here. I'm not even talking about progressive or biblical criticism, just basic logic. Oh, gosh. Okay, keep going.

[C]

What Moses wrote as Moses, best understanding of what God might do in a particular situation. But we're more evolved now. So that's the whole kind of fundamental principle of the Christianity that in their view is progressing.

[D]

And you could see why in and of itself is such a fluid movement.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Because there really isn't. There's nothing to call us back to. There's nothing to reform around or to place human opinion and have it arbitrated by anything else but further human opinion. So I'd imagine who's, who's going to

[B]

tell this guy that Humans wrote the Bible. Who's going to tell this, bro, that? Men, A lot of them, Most of them are Anonymous wrote the Bible. Like, yeah, dude, everything comes through human opinion. Like, ultimately you can say it doesn't, but Paul was a human being. Am I missing something here? I don't want to sound condescending, but, like, what do you. I just don't understand.

[A]

I don't think it's true when he says that. I think he's saying progressive Christianity because it's so fluid. Have nothing to call people back to. Like, that's right. We're literally trying to dismantle systems of oppression. Like, we are calling people to care for all of our human neighbors, you

[B]

know, into what Jesus taught.

[A]

One ideology, one race. Right. Like, I think that's such a. Like, we are what we do. Our entire work is our repentance. And we're trying to call people to a better way. Like a higher way of actually loving and being.

[B]

Yes. Rooted in the teachings of Jesus. Like, Elisa, no offense. We're trying to call people back to taking the red letter seriously.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, hello. Oh, my God. Like, this. I don't know what to say. Almost like, this might be one of the worst I've seen in a long time. It's just. It's baffling. Okay, we'll keep going.

[E]

You.

[D]

You gain a little bit of the metaphysical comfort. Like, okay, I have my transcendence. I'm not like the new atheist that's just like, you know, molecules in motion. But it's got to feel pretty uncertain too at the same time, because things must be shifting internally. They probably project a front, that there's a unity there. But I'd have to imagine that it has to be shifting all the time if it's built on the same subjectivism. Subjectivism of everything else around them.

[C]

Well, it is, for sure. So back when part of my story I think I've shared on your show before is that almost 15 years ago, I was basically discipled by a progressive Christian pastor, although I didn't know he was a progressive Christian at the time. And so back then, the conversations everybody was having was ultimately around theological issues. Like, do we. Do we think that it's good that Christianity teaches that Jesus died on the cross for our sins? Like, is that going to psychologically damage our children?

[B]

That is a real flattening out what we're talking about. Most of us are pushing back against penal substitutionary atonement, which is one view out of many views of the atonement. It's called atonement theory. There are seven or eight different mainstream views in Christian history, the newest of which, arguably is what Elisa advocates for. That Christ bore the wrath of God and was a. Was literally killed by God for our sins, and that's just to satisfy God's wrath. That is not. That is not the most widely understood view of what the atonement means.

[A]

No. And also the idea that I will say there is some truth to the uncertainty that progressive for sure will have because we aren't white, knuckling our faith and saying, this is true, this is true, this is true, this is true, despite evidence to the contrary.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So on one hand, there is more uncertainty, but uncertainty is. That's where faith actually comes in. What faith do you have? If you have a black and white ideology and you know this is absolute truth, and this is absolute, like, lies. Also, the Bible never talks about. You have to be certain. It's not talk. It's not pushing certainty and knowing that you know that you know that you know. And in fact, Romans 12:2 says, do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Renew. Does that mean certainty? You never rethink anything that you have for your entire life. Like, the Bible literally tells you to question and renew. Like, be constantly changing and evolving and to grow with God. Like, if you're just staying status quo forever, that's not growing.

[B]

Right. And Elisa is someone who will tell you that in her definition of truth, truth is that which corresponds to reality, yet she ignores the truth of what we know about the Bible and how we got it all the time. Again, like, that's what's so frustrating is, like, I was taught the value of seek truth wherever you can. Wherever truth is, there is God. Okay, so if we can verify what corresponds to reality, and we know that we have, as of this recording in human history, we have none of the original manuscripts. Okay, That's a truth claim. Whether you like it or not doesn't change the fact that we just don't have those things. So what do you do in light of that? Okay, we'll keep it moving.

[C]

Something that we need to free ourselves of, because that makes God into this kind of petty deity that needs blood. And that's really archaic and that sounds pagan. I mean, that's the kind of conversations that we were having, even having conversations of, like, do we think the Bible could the Bible have a few errors and still be valuable? Maybe we have gotten homosexuality wrong. Maybe that's okay. I mean, the transgender conversation wasn't even being had back then. This. That. That wasn't even on the radar. And so those were the types of conversations that were happening then. And meanwhile, over the past 10, 15 years, it seems like the progressive movement, like, those questions are not even, like, that's old news now. It's, you know, the radical transing of the young people. There's. Oh, my God, nothing.

[B]

I'm sorry. First off, I just love how she's like, maybe the Bible has a few errors in it. Like, somehow. That's shocking. That's shocking that a complicated collection of ancient manuscripts that don't all align would have errors in it. Like, guess what, Elisa? Ancient writers didn't have spell check. They didn't have the ability to backspace and retype. Whatever was on there was on there. I. Ah, this is just basic. This is basic stuff. And then she goes to the culture war. Transing our kids.

[A]

Radical trans children. So.

[B]

Oh, jeez.

[A]

So stupid. That's not. That's not a thing.

[B]

Not a thing. Talk about standing on lies.

[A]

Also, trans people always existed. This idea that, like, we weren't even talking about trans people back then. I'm like, yeah, because we were ignorant and we were focused on gay people because that was the culture war moment of the time and the way that we thought we could get the most power as white evangelicals. But trans people absolutely still existed. Have always existed.

[B]

Read this book, everyone. Marriage in the Bible. She talks a lot about eunuchs and how her argument is that eunuchs, some of them, are seen as kind of like a third gender. They weren't fully male, weren't fully female. This idea of people bending gender norms in some way, shape, or form has existed throughout human history.

[E]

Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals. Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time. It takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for Small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit the newevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.

[B]

All right, let's keep going.

[C]

That would make anybody step back and say, okay, hey, we went from less than 1% of the population experiencing gender dysphoria, and primarily that was men. Today it's thousands of percent increase. 4,000 to 6,000% increase. And primarily affecting young girls.

[B]

Okay, wait, so wait, I don't think that's true. She said like 1000%. Wouldn't that make it like 10 or. Because 100 would be 2%. Right? Like you just. Is that how it works?

[A]

Right?

[B]

So, like, if it went up by 400, that'd be 4% of the population. So a thousand percent or 4. Did she say 4,000%? I gotta back that up and find out.

[C]

Experiencing gender dysphoria, and primarily that was men. Today it's thousands of percent increase. 4,000 to 6,000% increase in.

[B]

Wait, 4,000 to 6,000? That would make it. Guys, I, I was homeschooling. My, my math is not the best. Wouldn't that make it like 40% for. To go from 1%? A 4,000% increase.

[A]

I don't know what she's talking about. Hold on, I'm trying to find. I'm looking it up right now.

[B]

I feel so dumb. I'm sorry. People are surprised, screaming at their, at their screens like, no, you dumb, dumb.

[F]

Let's.

[B]

If you start, I'm going to ask my computer. If you start at 1%, what is a 4,000% increase?

[A]

I don't know how. So according to Reuters. Reuters, not Reuters. So this only goes back to 2021, but there was a jump between 2020 and 2021 of minors ages 6 through 17 that were diagnosed with gender dysphoria. So it went from 24,000 patients total to 42,000 within a year.

[B]

That's less than 100% increase because 100% would double to 48,000. So I, I looked it up.

[A]

That's not people that actually did puberty blockers or anything.

[B]

A 4,000% increase would bring you from 1% to 40 to 40%. The US population is. Six out of ten adults are not subtly transgender. Elisa, like, what? No, it's up a few hundred Percent. Just like how if you look at the graph of when left handed people were accepted, it jumped way up because nuns and people in school stopped hitting people who were using their left hand. It's the same thing. It doesn't mean that people weren't. They just suppressed it.

[A]

Okay, so according to. When is this again? According to Reuters, it found that the diagnosed prevalence of gender dysphoria in children's and teens ranges between 0.1% and 0.7%. While broader surveys suggest that approximately 1 to 5% of adolescents self identify as transgender or gender non conforming. So self identified doesn't mean diagnose, but still that's between 1 and 5%. Not.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. The ELISA, the. The person who stands on an objective truth has declared there was a 4 to 6,000% increase.

[A]

I.

[B]

That's.

[A]

I know.

[B]

You ready?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Affecting young girls. Maybe that we should put the brakes on this or something. You know, they don't have any mechanism for that because it's just acceptance. Acceptance, Affirmation.

[B]

Guys, can we just think about what she's saying? She's saying that the medical profession, the people who take the Hippocratic oath, there's no breaks. They're being reckless. They're not doing studies. There's no data supporting the views that they have. They're just, they're just walking around with some magic wand, quote unquote, transing kids. Like how it sounds as absurd as the idea of Satan putting skeletons or fossils in the fossil record to, to deceive us. Like when you really examine what they're saying and you think about how that's actually happening. It's an absurd claim. It's absurd. Especially considering how, how the jump is still not that big. And as we understand human behavior more and, and understand. And understand those things. For example, autism. Right. We had no language for that even two decades ago. It wasn't, it wasn't mainstream. Now that we have studies and ways to test for it and we understand it better, we have a word and we have a spectrum and we know how to help people or maybe how to help them flourish in life the best who might be autistic like my 5 year old, doesn't mean that people are walking around autisming children.

[A]

Right. Well, and like, but until you hit puberty, any sort of like, social, like transition. Gender transition is purely social.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It's how you dress, name pronouns. It has nothing medical, like there's nothing medical whatsoever. And I know a lot of trans people. It's not like you Just go into a doctor's office, say, I'm trans, get me all this stuff. And they just do it. Like there's a, there's a long process.

[B]

How's next week?

[A]

Insurance has to get involved. Like it's not, it's not this like rush that these people make it out to seem. And most people that I know that are trans would say take it slow. Like people take it slow to make sure that that's. Especially when you're young, to make sure that that's, that's how you feel, that that's what, that's what you want. There's a reason they don't do surgeries on minors, despite what Fox News says.

[B]

The fact that we're even talking about this every day is ridiculous though. I mean, it's like talking about the amount of, of of I don't even know. It's. It's such a minority like, like non inconsequential situation that distracts us from the real issues. Healthcare, affordability, bombing kids, the military industrial complex. And instead, Elisa, the Christian who reads the words of Jesus comes away with, well, we gotta stop the transing of kids. That isn't really happening. Oh my God, they're just so far from, from reality. In my opinion, it's.

[A]

And transing is not a word. Being trans, it's not a verb. You either are trans or you are not trans. No one makes you trans.

[B]

There's nothing in the water. All right, let's keep going.

[C]

And so now the conversations have shifted entirely into that critical social justice as applied even to the LGBTQ conversations. Not just critical race theory, it's critical gender theory and critical queer theory and

[B]

feminist theory and all which have existed for decades. Critical race theory comes out of like the 70s and early 80s. Alisa, this stuff has been talked about way before you and your right wing, you know, outrage machine got involved. Like, newsflash, this stuff has existed in, in scholarship long before you started freaking out about it. Long before.

[A]

Also, CRT is, is a college level teaching course.

[B]

Yeah, all of it is gender studies. Like, okay, okay, all right, Elisa.

[C]

That has completely overtaken the conversation. So. Yeah, it's just, it is constantly changing.

[B]

Yeah, right, exactly. Because of them. They're the ones hammering this. Christopher Ruffo made a tweet saying we're going to re. We're going to take the term CRT and apply it in a way that makes everyone freaked out about anything that's to. That has to do with like social justice. It was an intentional move by the right to do this same thing with woke. The term woke comes from black culture. Okay? It stay. Woke came out of an era when black folks had to have their eyes open because they could get, you know, physically harmed at any moment because of racism. Right wing culture reappropriated that term and has turned it into a weapon that actually harms the black community or harms marginalized folks. That's what they do.

[C]

Gosh, I don't really understand what's appealing just on a existential level, because it's constantly changing. The, the sands are shifting all the time. There's nothing just concrete to put your feet on. And that's why when I was in that situation and really caused me to experience a lot of doubts, for me, progressive Christianity wasn't an option. I was not going to come out of that a progressive Christian. I was either going to come out of that a Christian or a nihilist, A complete atheist nihilist. Admitting that the world has no meaning and there's no beauty, or truly, you know, you could do what you could to make beauty out of it. But I mean, there's no real objective beauty or goodness.

[B]

That's the binary that she still lives in. You're either a Christian or you're an atheist. Those are my only two options. Well, guess what? A lot of humans live in the gray. And by the way, nihilism and atheism are not always one and the same.

[F]

Right?

[A]

I. I think she actually makes a really good point here accidentally, by all means, because she's saying there's nothing that appealing about progressive Christianity because it doesn't provide you certainty. Yes, it's. It's not. It doesn't bring you that comfort of that, you know, that. That certainty that evangelicals do have. Because I will say that is one thing that sometimes I miss about being an evangelical. It was easier. You had an answer for everything. Even if it didn't make sense, you could convince yourself that it did make sense. And so being. But I think that the point of why a lot of people end up being progressive is because you are. We become faced with realities that our belief system contradicts. And so you can either double down back into your belief system and ignore what's right in front of you, or you go on the journey of realizing you don't know everything and you learn more and you experience more. And yeah, that is unsettling because we're never going to know everything. We're constantly learning and renewing our minds, as the Bible says, and realizing that the world is much Bigger than us. It's much bigger than our, you know, faith tradition. It's much bigger than the nation we were born into. And that's unsettling. That's uncertain. But it's also the truth. It's actually in search of actual truth. It's where actual faith comes into play. Like progressive Christians have more faith than conservative evangelicals.

[B]

Yeah. Not to mention we give these things meaning. The Bible has no meaning unless we give it meaning. That's why people have church splits. They apply meaning to different parts of the Bible. Some say that this passage is still applicable today. Women need to be silent. And some go, actually, we disagree. We don't hold the same meaning of what those verses say. And then they split.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You know, like, again, this is just how it is. Like, you might not like it, but that is the reality.

[A]

It's the reality.

[B]

That's why things shift.

[A]

It's why so many people like Lisa and so many people in Christian nationalism, maga, conservative evangelicalism, why they won't ask questions or have conversations with progressives because they don't want to question their beliefs. They don't want to have to think about anything other than what they've been taught because it can be soul crushing. It's called an existential crisis for a reason. It's not fun, right? Not a fun experience to realize what you believed was not true. But it's also reality.

[B]

I didn't deconstruct because it was sexy. You know what I'm saying, April? Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a throwback. If you know, you know, okay, we'll keep going.

[C]

So it was nihilism or Christianity for me. So I don't personally really get the existential comfort that it brings. On an intellectual level I can understand, especially for younger people who are constantly being told, oh, Christianity hurts people. Well, you don't want to be somebody that hurts people.

[B]

Look around, look around. Like, use your eyeballs. 80% of your tribe, Elisa, voted for a man who is bombing kids in Iran. A man who, who posted an AI generated video of himself taking a dump on protesters. A man who emboldened an agency to kidnap children for no reason at all. To throw to, to disappear people. We don't know where some of these immigrants are. Look around. Look, just take a look. Like, just use those God given eyeballs and just do a little survey of the culture that you voted for and try and tell me that your theology doesn't kill.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Mind blowing. I mean, how, you know, I'm kind of all done. I'll try and be polite here, but I'm all done, like, giving these people, like, massive respect. Like, this stuff does not deserve our respect because it's so blatantly either disingenuous or you're just brainwashed, Alisa. You're just brainwashed. I mean, even the Moral Majority, the fact that Jerry Falwell said horrific things about gay people, aids was God's judgment on gay peoples that would lead Christian nurses not to treat their patients who had AIDS. Jerry Falwell blamed 911 on the abortionists, the feminists, the ACLU, the. And the gaze. Oh, maddening to see her talk like this.

[A]

It's because they have their head in the sand. They refuse to view what's true like it. Because it is a lot harder to demonize someone once you actually get close enough to see the divine in them. And that's why they keep trans people at a distance, why they keep progressive at a distance. They don't want to humanize us.

[B]

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Well said.

[C]

It's very confusing.

[D]

Just to flip the perspective for a second, you mentioned in that study that for progressive Christians, they start with their politics and they work that back into the theology, and conservatives do it in reverse. Just anecdotally or logically, I would say that while that seems true on the surface, it feels as though there are plenty of conservatives who start with their politics, and that at least if it doesn't impact their theology, it impacts their demeanor, their attitude, their love for people, their tone, and the way that they interact with those outside of the church. And so where have we kind of helped make the soil fertile for beliefs like this to grow, if at all?

[A]

If you disagree.

[D]

But have we in some ways, do things. Do some things need to be deconstructed and challenged within conservative Christianity that would maybe make us better witnesses to that world and create less of a resistance to some of what we may have done to contribute to it.

[B]

Great question.

[C]

Fair question. So I think there's a couple of different things going on, and I think ultimately my answer to the question is, you could try, but you won't be successful, and I want to explain why. So there's a couple of things going on. There is, I would say the vast majority of conservative Christians who are maybe voting conservative on their politics, they're voting fascist. The vast majority of those. There's a narrative created about you. If you have conservative politics, or maybe you decided after reflection and prayer, even though you don't like Trump's character, you acknowledge he's not a Christian, but maybe you voted for him because you liked his policies. And it was tough because it was like, here are my choices. I'm gonna do the best I can with it. I would say that's the boat that the vast majority of Christians are in, and they are considered, like, rabid Christian nationalists. And I just, I don't think that's true or fair. I remember in 2017, I wrote an article that had nothing to do with politics, but because it was on the Gospel Coalition, it went viral on progressive Twitter. It was like the first time that they became aware of what I was doing. And it was this very, I thought, thoughtful, well researched article where I had kind of comparing the beliefs of progressive Christians and atheists, and it was like wall to wall, oh, white Christian nationalist and Trump memes. And I'm like, what. What is happening? You know, interesting. And I experienced that early on. And so people, even today, even though I. Okay, this is. This is funny to me. I have only done one podcast that I can remember where I even talked about Donald Trump. And on that podcast, I gave my very calmly, well reasoned reasons why I had voted for him, and that was it. That's about the extent of my MAGA affiliation or whatever. But to this day, the progressives call me, and even, sadly, some conservatives call me a MAGA apologist because some of the things that I say might actually align with some people on that. But I'm. But I'm not. I mean, I've said I'm not.

[B]

Okay, well, I should just say one thing. She wrote an article explaining why she voted for Trump. You're defending your vote for Trump. That's what apologetics is. It's giving a defense for the faith. You're a Trump apologist. You explained why you're carefully reasoned in research points, why you voted for a rapist who brags about assaulting women, who lies about everything, who had a pastor pray over his own golden statue. Ta da.

[A]

This is actually a really good example of why Christian nationalism is so sneaky, because I actually agree with her that most people who voted for Trump would not consider themselves Christian nationalists. They would not consider themselves. And I do think there are probably a lot that voted for him and don't like him. Also, that being said, though, I would imagine, and I don't have direct quotes in front of me, but just based on this conversation alone, that Elisa is someone who probably said she voted for Donald Trump because she believes, I would imagine that his policies line up the most with the quote, unquote biblical worldview. And we heard her earlier say radical transing of children. That is right wing propaganda that she is also pushing that Christian nationalists use to gain power to get to fear monger and to get people to vote for them. This is where it's sneaky because she would say even in this conversation where she's talking about she words things in a way where conservative evangelicals are no absolute truth are the true Christians. You can't really trust progressives because of this whole conversation. That alone is a form of Christian nationalism that true Christians have to vote this way.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And nothing else is true Christianity.

[B]

You're exactly right. It also, again, I want to be so clear here. It's evident that Elisa does not care about actual scholarship because there are many books written by Christian scholars describing how they define Christian nationalism and what the evidence of these beliefs are. She could read the studies done by PRI to her audience. She could read Andrew Whitehead's American Gospel. She could read Bradley Onishi's book. There are so many books that you could read Timothy Snyder's book on this to help you just understand the scholarship on this topic. But she doesn't. And then she strawmans it. This is like, this is evangelical apologetics, Apologetics 101. They, this is the. And don't forget, for many people, this is their only understanding of what Christian nationalism is because they trust Alisa Childers. They don't trust the woke left. They don't trust the scholar who's. Who's a progressive Christian. They trust what Elisa tells them. And it is, it is again just maddening to watch her talk like this as she has written an article defending Trump, why she voted for him. And she's trying to convince people as she tours with Allie Beth Stuckey, she has events with Allie Stuckey that somehow she's not political. Give me a break. You are, obviously. And just admit it. Like, just admit it. Just admit that you're a right. You like right wing politics. You think that your view of the Bible led you to vote for one of the most corrupt men ever, that he's so corrupt. Every day is a new Watergate. I mean, as of this recording, we just heard that they allocated $1.7 billion to help repay January sixers who were, quote unquote, mistreated by the DOJ under Biden. That's how corrupt this administration is. And Elise is like, you know, biblical values. Oh, makes my skin.

[A]

Well, and that's what Christian nationalism is. Just as a refresher, it's this conflation of your theology with your political identity. And so most people that are Christian nationalists now, there are some that admit that they are and openly wear that label, but most of them don't. Most of them would just say, I'm just being a good Christian. Love God, love people. Exclusions apply, but vote Republican.

[B]

Exclusions apply. Yeah, it's good, right?

[A]

Like, you have to vote Republican. That's. That's the true Christian vote. That conflation alone. If you. If. And I bet she feels that she could never vote for a Democrat.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

Because of her Christian beliefs. That is a form of. That is believing. The Christian nationalist propaganda right there.

[B]

Right. And that's how she can say a lot of us voted for Trump even though we didn't like him. Because in her mind, no matter what, the Democrats are always worse. Sure, I don't like Trump. I don't like that he's in the Epstein files. But Kamala wanted to trans kids, and that's way worse than being BFF with a pedophile. Obviously, that is the logic. That's the logic. Okay, well, we'll keep going a little bit longer. I mean, this video, we're not even halfway through it. It will be here all day, but. I know. Well, we are pausing a lot, but there's so much to respond to. Friends, if you like these kinds of videos, let us know in the comments. By the way. We enjoy doing them. But if you don't like them, then it's kind of a moot point. We could do them without recording it.

[A]

Or if you see any other content out there that you're like, oh, come in, April to respond to us, feel free to send it our way.

[B]

Yeah, sounds good.

[F]

Hi, my name is Leanne. I live in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I'm 65 years old, and both my husband and I grew up in a fairly conservative evangelical church. But about 20 years ago, we began to question some of the teachings in that church, and we embarked on our own process of deconstruction and reconstruction, although it didn't have a name at the time, and we have recently started attending a wonderful church that is fully affirming and fully inclusive of our LGBTQ siblings in Christ. And. And we absolutely love it. It's the best faith experience of our lives. And I so appreciate Tim and the New Evangelicals team. I so appreciate the online resource, and I have become a donor because I believe so strongly in the really important work they're doing, and I would encourage anyone listening to consider doing the same. Thank you.

[C]

So here's the thing. I think the vast majority of that is a narrative. And so I think the only acceptable thing for somebody who's going to be lobbying that claim would be for the Christian to just stop being conservative. And I just. So that's what I mean where I say, like, you could try. I don't know if you'd be successful. Now, with that said, though, I do want to acknowledge that there is a growing movement on the right that is being called the woke right, or some call it the dissident right that I am very concerned about, or the far right. And these are a group of characters that are seem to be really motivated by antisemitism, motivated by a white centric vision of America. They seem to be motivated by what you are describing as kind of the leftist version on the right of starting with politics and letting theology downflow. And it's real. It's. It's for real. And I think we're seeing that gain even more of a voice in the conservative space. And so I've spoken out against that. Lots of people have been speaking out against that. Because as it grows, I mean, it's really puzzling to see people that you think otherwise, like, are really solid Christians. You're like, what. What is happening? So, yes, it exists and it's real. And I think that that group really does, to your point, really get it wrong and make inroads for people to go, gosh, is everything I've ever taught just, you know, bunk? Is this all just ideological battles and something like that?

[B]

So, you know, who would have thought that the guy who had the endorsement of white supremacists like Richard Spencer during his first campaign would lead to a growing movement of white supremacy on the right? I mean, who would have thought that, that a movement that is rolling back black voting rights as we speak because of the Supreme Court gutting the Voting Rights Act? Who would have thought that there would be racism here? Who would have thought that Charlie Kirk saying he's worried when he sees a black pilot on a plane and that black women don't have the brainpower for certain jobs? Who would have thought there was racism there? Lisa, she was at Charlie Kirk's funeral, by the way, Publicly she went. Who would have thought that there was racism in the right wing flank? Wow.

[A]

And I imagine she looked at that memorial service for Charlie Kirk as just a great Christian service.

[B]

Oh, totally.

[A]

Despite it being very Christian nationalist, which we covered. You can go back and watch our video where we covered that service.

[B]

So, you know, Alisa talked About I wanted to fact check her on this. How she's talked out about this quote unquote woke, right. Which is a made up term by a guy named James Lindsay who's an atheist. It's a whole thing. But I'm looking at her latest videos. Here's what we got. Top Bible scholars debunks TikTok Bible myths. Why God doesn't make children indestructible. Deconstruction. She's still talking about this. Proof they were never saved. Why coloring book Jesus won't save your kids. Faith Michael Jackson movie movie review plus their best resources for kids. Why smart people fall for online manipulation from same sex relationship to freedom in Christ. We need to talk about Christian nationalism. What it really is with some conservative scholar reacting to progressive and deconstruction tiktoks. This is the last four weeks. Why Darwinian evolution isn't like physics or chemistry. Sending your kids to college. Five challenges to prepare. Why God allows suffering inside the occult. Nothing about. About. About the book. Right? This is over a month ago now. Bethel exposed when healing causes harm. Biblical forgiveness. Did Adam and Eve really exist? Okay, Elisa. Yeah. I can tell you're really focused on the growing anti Semitism and blatant supremacy growing in the right wing flank. I can tell it's like really top of your mind by the content that you make. They don't care.

[A]

Their ideology gives room and cover for anti Semitism and white supremacy because it is rooted in white evangelicalism.

[B]

That's why we call it white Christian nationalism. Jerry Falwell, the founder of the Moral Majority got political because of school integration. He didn't believe that black kids and white kids should be able to go to school at the same time.

[F]

Yep, yep.

[B]

Sorry, we're gonna start ranting. We got. We gotta keep moving. Okay, let's keep going.

[A]

All right.

[B]

I'm fired up.

[C]

I'm fired up that, you know, in my, in my deconstruction research, almost every deconstruction story mentions this in one way or another. It's hard to know for sure, you know, how somebody grew up or what their parents actually said. Most people in the deconstruction movement would say, I grew up as a Christian nationalist. And I think they're probably just had conservative parents that maybe just, you know, aren't really Christian nationalists. But with that said, there's always like these extreme reactions on both sides. So we do definitely see this really crazy thing happening on the right that I call the dissident. Right. And I think it's. It's scary. I don't think it's ultimately going to win out, but it is loud and it is growing.

[B]

Notice. Maybe we could stop here. I don't know. We can keep going if you want. Notice how she downplays what's happening on the right, but on the left, it's, it's, it's all she could talk about because again, she's making up words for transient kids, apparently. Because, because, because of queer inclusion. We're just off our rocker. But the right, the far right, the distant right, yeah, they're annoying. Like, they're, they're bad, but they're not going to win out. Joel Webbing, who's, who's growing Nazis in our midst. I mean, yeah, you know, Nick Fuentes says that, that men own women's bodies, but you know, he's, he's so minor as he gets almost a million views, live views like every week or something like that. Yeah, but he's, he's not a big player at all in this space.

[A]

Or Tucker Carlson wants trans people to have full human rights.

[B]

Right, Exactly. I mean, look at Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens. They're all anti Semites, blatantly. So. Nick Fuentes is growing. Joel Webbing is growing. They're doing conferences together in the right wing spaces. But no, no, no, Lisa, that, those, That's a minor thing. Doug Wilson's out here really saying publicly that you should. They should repeal the 19th amendment, so at least it will lose her right to vote.

[A]

Pastor.

[B]

Yes, but they don't.

[A]

They're not.

[B]

You know, Pete Hagg said this in the Pentagon running the Department of Defense. But they're not winning out. These people who are all adjacent to Stephen Wolf in that right wing Nazi space. They're not winning out. Wow. Wow. Oh, my gosh. You want to do like five more minutes of video?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[D]

Well, it's hard when you are characterized in a certain way, in a cartoonish way.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You're treated like you're just the worst scum of the earth. At some point, you kind of just embrace that identity and lean into it and I think.

[B]

Do you mean Ben, like, like when you people characterize people on the left so, so blatantly in like the worst sight possible. Like. Is that what you're talking about?

[A]

Demon rats? Mark says.

[B]

Okay, sorry, I'll stop pausing so much. I'm just, I can't believe this interview.

[D]

See, a little bit of that. I think you're assumably. You're talking about Nick Fuentes and other

[C]

fantas Owens, Tucker Carlson and then there's even some other players that are more pastoral about it and more thoughtful about it. But still, what they're presenting I think is very dangerous. But yeah.

[B]

Notice how she won't name names. Name the names. Elisa, who are you talking about? She won't say it.

[A]

I think that's just Tucker and Candace.

[B]

Yeah, but, but then, I'm sorry, then she said the pastoral side. So who are these pastors you're talking about?

[D]

I guess for me, on the more street level, I just, I reject or resist the idea that I have to capitulate certain aspects of who Jesus is, because that is theirs.

[B]

Right.

[D]

So the idea that justice, you pointed that out earlier. Justice being a word that we almost feel like we have to apologize for now in Christian circles. Like, I mean, justice, but I mean it in the way that I mean it, not the way that they mean it.

[C]

Right.

[D]

You know, and to me it's just like, no, you don't get to claim compassion and love and concern for the poor and justice and all of these things that are inextricably linked to the character of Christ. I'm like, so for me, it's not so much that.

[B]

Yes. And Ben, is it compassionate when the politicians you vote for don't renew Affordable Care act subsidies stripping health care for millions of people? Is it compassionate when you kidnap five year olds who are the children of immigrants and ship them off of Texas where they get sick with no due process? Is it loving when you strip funding from public schools and take money, food, out of the mouth of hungry children? Again, these are the people that you have voted for. Ben, help.

[A]

It's really interesting to see him say this, like, well, they don't get to claim that. Like, we can claim that too. Cause I've, I've said something, so many similar things.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Because conservative evangelicals, they don't. They say, we're not Christian, we're heretics, we're blasphemous because we love too much. Literally. We talked about this recently, but there was this Christian influencer online who said that, that progressives think they can out love God and that's one of the most hateful things you can do.

[B]

Like, her name's Amy Maine. Amy Maine said that I'll name it.

[A]

But like, and you and I have talked about, like, no, we are Christians. We're not going to let them run our faith into the ground because it's also our faith. And we, and we never left Christianity because we are still Christians because we want to love our neighbor. We want to do better at following the red letters and following the teachings of Jesus. So I don't know, I'm kind of enjoying that. He's like, you don't get to take justice.

[B]

Like, great, go, go live it out then.

[A]

Yeah, live it out.

[D]

I just want followers of Jesus to be bold in claiming every aspect of who Jesus is and not feel like they have to overreact to the accusations or step out of those spaces because for some reason, it's been labeled as a progressive thing. It's like, no, we. We need to. Like you said, I think by and large, your average follower of Jesus who's considered a nationalist is just. It's the nicest person you'll walk by in the park. I mean, they're the ones probably helping you if your car is broken down.

[B]

Yeah. And then they'll vote to strip you of health care. Like, maybe so, Ben. But, like, gosh darned.

[A]

I mean, to his point, I do think a lot of people in this world genuinely believe that they're voting conservative because they think that's what God wants them to do, because they think that's helping people. Because there is a lot of misinformation and propaganda that comes from this world. I know as someone who lived it, I genuinely thought that I was doing the more loving thing, even though I knew I was taking rights away from people. But they were just sinners and they needed to be stopped. Like, it was like a way, a twisted way of actually helping them. So, I mean, not that. Not that that justifies it or makes it right, but I do think I understand how they feel they're being treated so unfairly that people would call them bigots despite them holding bigoted beliefs. But they're told from the pulpit every single week that, oh, you're not hated because you're a Christian nationalist or because you're a bigot. Like, no, you're hated because you stand for biblical truth. It's this twisting of what biblical truth is that makes people think that their bigoted beliefs and that the way that the policies that they support is actually just true Christianity. It's. It's all part of the persecution complex that white evangelicals use to maintain power.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I would never, when I was in it, I would never say I was a Christian nationalist, but looking back, I was being groomed to be a Christian nationalist. Like, looking back at the ideology and what I believe about America being a Christian country and only voting Republican because that's what God would want. These are all Christian nationalist ideals. Alternative Ultimately. All right, let's do one more little segment, then we can wrap up.

[D]

But I also just want us to be bold enough in embodying those aspects of who Jesus is and not worry about the label that comes with it or capitulate to the way it's been skewed to now mean something that really, it never should be.

[C]

Yeah, and you're right. It's really sad because you almost feel like you have to define every term you use when you. You talk about doing justice. You almost have to ask somebody, well, how do you define justice? Because they have very different definitions depending on the worldview. Yeah, it's a very interesting time to be alive, especially with all of the information available at our fingertips. In my second book, I call it the Recreated Tower of Babel, which is. Social media is really like the Tower of Babel. And there was a reason that God didn't want everybody speaking with the same language. And, you know, and I think we're there again. And it's just kind of interesting to see, especially with the younger generation with all of these options that they have at their fingertips as far as worldviews and beliefs. Like, when I was a kid, if I wanted to know what the Catholic neighbors believed, I had to go ask them. You know, I'd have to go talk with them. And I wasn't really exposed to a lot of that. So it's a whole different world, and we have to be careful. We have to be critical thinkers. But I think, too, I like what you were saying about you can't worry about the label. You just have to be a Christian. And that's the thing is, it's really interesting, especially doing this publicly, how you get labeled by so many different groups, different things, and almost never is it what you really are. So at some point, you're just like, I don't care. I'm just gonna say what is right to say in this moment and about whatever this situation is and do my best to be biblical about it. And, yeah, it's. It's tricky.

[B]

There we go.

[A]

There's that biblical line.

[B]

There it is. Yeah. I love how she acknowledges that people see the world differently and then comes back to. But I have the. I have the truth. I'm right. Like, yeah, like Elisa. The world's complicated, my friend. Gosh. Anyway, I think we've ranted a lot about this, but it is. It is. You know, we do this because I. We need to expose what's going on underneath some of, like, this rhetoric that people like Elisa Espouse I mean, even at least that's saying, you know, people are going to, you know, put labels on me. Well, Elisa, when you do events with Ali Stuckey, when you say publicly that you voted for Trump, and here's why, when you tell people that, you know, we're transing kids, what do you think we're going to say? Like, obviously you're in right wing media spaces advocating for conservative Christian nationalist beliefs. Like, that's just what you're doing. Just like how people would say that we're progressive Christians. Like, look, I think that title might be too broad, but yeah, I mean, I'm definitely progressive, definitely a Christian. I mean, I'm not going to shy away from the reality of what I believe and what I'm doing. You good?

[A]

Yes. My children are home today because it was an election day, so they were just being very loud right outside the door.

[B]

It happens. It happens. It's not beautiful. So anyway, those are my final thoughts. You got any?

[A]

I mean, I just think I, I said a lot.

[B]

Me too. We talked a lot this week.

[A]

I, I, these people have a monetary, especially someone like Elisa. They have a monetary reason to never question their beliefs.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think we should always be wary of people who espouse certain beliefs and political ideologies that if they were to renounce those tomorrow would lose their livelihoods.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fair. Well, friends, we appreciate you being here and let us know what you think in the comments about this video. We always read the comments. We love having you here. We go live every Thursday, 12 o' clock Eastern on YouTube, right here on Tim and April's show and on substack with our friends at Lincoln Media Square. Make sure to tune in if you're listening on podcast. Thank you. Make sure to subscribe, download the show and rate and review. It means so much. I'm Tim Whitaker.

[A]

And I'm April Ajoy.

[B]

Tata T.