← The Tim & April Show
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- [00:00]
April
You're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.
- [00:18]
Timothy
Oh, hello, friends. Hello, April.
- [00:20]
April
Hello, Timothy.
- [00:22]
Timothy
How are you?
- [00:23]
April
How are you doing today?
- [00:25]
Timothy
Oh, good, good. You know, fighting Christian nationalism. Try not to lose my mind. All the good stuff in life. So it's good to see you. Yeah, you know how it is.
- [00:33]
Matt Taylor
Same.
- [00:34]
Timothy
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [00:35]
April
Totally.
- [00:35]
Timothy
Friends, welcome. Yeah, friends, welcome back. Hopefully you're hanging in there as well. So we've been doing these deep dives every Monday on Christian nationalism because that term is so big and encompasses a world, a universe inside of it. So the first episode we did was kind of a general overview of what Christian nationalism is. Then we talked about Paula White last week. I recommend that. I recommend that episode a lot. And this week we actually have a guest. This is our first time doing a guest to help us break down the independent charismatic world and specifically the new Apostolic Reformation. So please welcome to the show, Matt Taylor. Matthew, it's so good to see you. Welcome in, my friend.
- [01:13]
Matt Taylor
Thank you for having me.
- [01:15]
Timothy
Now, you've been on the new Evangelicals content a lot. You and I have talked, I mean, probably four or five times over the past few years, covering all kinds of things from January 6 to the Independent charismatic world to the new episode of Reformation and everything in between. And you wrote an amazing book, the Violent Take it by Force that I cite often, especially when we're talking about charismatic theology and the new Apostolic Reformation.
- [01:40]
April
There it is right here.
- [01:42]
Timothy
April has a copy of it. Why don't you go ahead and briefly introduce yourself for the audience, then we'll get into it.
- [01:47]
Matt Taylor
Well, thank you again for having me. So I am a senior Christian scholar at the Institute for Islamic, Christian and Jewish Studies. We do inter religious dialogue, but we also do research into religious bias and bigotry, anti Semitism, Islamophobia, Christian nationalism. And I've been here for about seven years now. I did my PhD at Georgetown and my master's degree at Fuller. And I get into some of that history in the book just because there are a lot of connections between the new Apostolic Reformation and Fuller Seminary, where I. An alum.
- [02:20]
Timothy
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, Peter Wagner is kind of one of the main connections. Right. That we'll get into.
- [02:25]
Matt Taylor
So.
- [02:26]
Timothy
Yeah, I get that. And I'm thinking, you know, the first time you and I talked way back, it was related to January 6th, and you made a really important connection for me about just how some of this charismatic theology and, and kind of what we're seeing how important it is to what's happening in our current political and cultural moment. So I want to kind of hop right into this because there's so much to. To discuss. How do you even start this conversation for people who might have no awareness of the independent charismatic world? Because it's. It's really a subculture inside of a subculture. Right. You have evangelicalism, then you have the, the. All the, the different rooms, and then you have, like, the independent charismatics that were kind of off to the side for a long time. So how would you introduce this concept to just the average person who has no concept of this world?
- [03:12]
Matt Taylor
Yeah, I think we get stuck talking in these huge, broad categories in American politics, in part because we're trying to simplify things down. We're trying to make sense of things. And so we talk about evangelicalism, and then sometimes people will talk about white evangelicalism, and we talk about Christian nationalism. Right. And sometimes people will talk about white Christian nationalism. And so you start to start assuming that, oh, all these things must be very simple and homogeneous and easy to understand. If you dig into them, you realize that these are phenomena that are not people even want to talk about. Oh, the Christian nationalist movement. Where's the movement? I'm not sure, like, who's the movement leader? Like, where are they all moving? Right. I think of these things more as these huge cultural trends that we use these terms in order to try to simplify and make sense of. But. And sometimes we actually need to tease these things apart because not all evangelicals are alike. Not all Christian nationalists are alike. If you look at any survey of Christian nationalism, you will see that there is a spectrum, there's a continuum. There are Christian nationalists, and there's various words that get used for them, but there are Christian nationalists who are what I would call soft Christian nationalists. Right. They have a certain attachment to an idea of America as a Christian nation, but they're not the people showing up on January 6th. Right. And then there's other Christian nationalists, what I would call hardline Christian nationalists or Christian supremacists, who are much more aggressive, much more assertive, much more involved in our politics, and who were very involved in January 6th. And that's really what I'm trying to do with the book, is trying to dial in on one of these Christian supremacist movements, the new Apostolic Reformation, and really try to understand the role that it has played in creating the spiritual ethos around Donald Trump, but then also in really doing a lot of the practical planning and mobilizing for January 6th.
- [05:11]
Timothy
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, April and I will tell you that we have a hard time unpacking our own experience in the evangelical world and trying to articulate it because we both grew up evangelical, but in very different parts of the. Of the room, so to speak.
- [05:25]
April
My belief system growing up would very much resemble an ar, but we weren't in ar.
- [05:31]
Timothy
Right.
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April
Technically speaking. So can you kind of define what is the new Apostolic Reformation and when did it begin?
- [05:39]
Matt Taylor
Yeah, so elements of it you can trace all the way back to the 1950s, but the phrase new apostolic reformation was coined in 1996. And that's really where I would start a lot of the conversation. It centers around a man named C. Peter Wagner, who was a Fuller Theological Seminary professor. And it was actually at a Fuller Seminary event. That's the guy, the avuncular guy with the funny goatee. That is Peter Wagner. And Wagner was a professor of church growth. He was very interested in how do you help Christian movements to grow. How do you almost manufacture and engineer growth as a sort of theological principle, as a practical matter. And over the course of his long career, he was a missionary for 15 years in South America. But then as he's working as a research professor at Fuller, he comes to believe that the sector of global Christianity that is going to produce the most growth in the 21st century will be the intersection of non denominational governance and charismatic spirituality. And so this is where he really starts focusing attention. He starts building relationships with a lot of people in that world and in some sense kind of gets sucked into that world himself, becomes a player in that world, becomes a true believer in that world. And it's out of that context that he coins this phrase new upslow reformation. And the idea is that in the 21st century, God is going to unleash a new force in the life of the global church that will be led by modern day apostles and prophets that will participate in high level spiritual warfare against the forces of evil and darkness in the world. And that those leaders will help to conquer societies in the name of Jesus through the church and through what they call revival and reformation. That there will be a mass conversion of people into charismatic Christianity. And those charismatic Christians will take over society, not just the United States, but all global societies, and will reconfigure the relationship between church and state, establish Christian societies on the earth, and then Jesus will come and give them a big pat on the back.
- [07:50]
Timothy
Okay, that's a lot. I'm assuming that this did not come out of a vacuum. I think what might be helpful just to be as broad as possible, then we can zoom in, is maybe for you to describe, like how you think about the four quadrants of Christianity kind of as. As they stand right now. Because you're right. Part of what makes this so tricky is that I think there is a tectonic shift happening in like the American Christian landscape on a lot of different levels. Not just even evangelicalism. I think about the rise of the tribe, Catholic movement, et cetera. And so a lot of things are shifting quickly.
- [08:21]
Matt Taylor
And.
- [08:22]
Timothy
And I think that some of the old models that we used to think about, the general Christian landscape in America has to kind of shift and evolve. So let's just start real big. The nar does that fit inside, like, you know, non denominational spaces or charismatic spaces? How do you break this down on the macro level first?
- [08:42]
Matt Taylor
Yeah, so I have a diagram in my book that if you want, I think you can pull up on the screen there. But the idea is a lot of the ways that we talk about these big movements, we talk about American Christianity or evangelicalism. Well, those things are unwieldy when we actually talk about them that way. So if we think about within American Christianity in the early 20th century, there is a new set of movements that emerge. They're connected to evangelicalism, but they largely go under the heading of Pentecostalism. And Pentecostalism is a revival movement built around charismatic spirituality and experiences like speaking in tongues, like people being gifted with prophecy. The belief of the Pentecostals is that God in the 20th century is renewing some of the gifts, the miraculous gifts we hear about in the New Testament, but that many expressions of Christianity do not continue to practice. And they're saying, well, no, those things are being renewed. And so that creates this set of movements around the world called the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements. Within the Pentecostal charismatic movements, there really are kind of three big buckets that you would sort things into. So there's the Pentecostal little groups proper, which tend to be denominational, like the Assemblies of God, the Church of God in Christ. And again, that's a global movement.
- [10:03]
Timothy
Right.
- [10:03]
Matt Taylor
There's also what they would call the charismatic renewal that includes a lot of mainline Protestant churches and Catholic churches. So there's a huge burgeoning movement right now of charismatic Catholics that's growing around the world. Amy Coney Barrett, the Supreme Court justice, grew up in a charismatic Catholic community.
- [10:21]
Timothy
I did not know that.
- [10:22]
Matt Taylor
Yes. Oh yeah, she grew up in. It was Called People of Praise in Indiana. And that's the world that she came up in. And as far as I know, she. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Lots of speaking in times, lots of charismatic ideas of authority and shepherding and like authority structures. Oh yeah. She grew up in a very, very rigid religious community. And then the third branch is the one that I'm really focused on and that is these independent charismatics or non denominational charismatic, kind of the most amorphous of the three strands of Pentecostal and charismatic. Within that space, this non denominational charismatic space, you have a lot of talk beginning in the 1940s and 1950s about this idea of renewing the roles of apostles and prophets. The apostles and prophets, if you go back and read the New Testament, are ancient forms of leadership in the church. Very important forms of leadership in the church. Stuff that's talked about in the New Testament. Most strands of Christianity today would say those are forms of leadership that passed away or transitioned into other things. Right. The apostles handed off authority to bishops and pastors and elders and deacons, and we don't have those today. Well, in this independent charismatic space, it's non denominational, there's no rules, right. And so they start saying, well, actually what we need today is more apostles and prophets and God. They believe in prophecy, so they believe through their own prophecies that God is telling them that God is going to renew the offices of apostle and prophet. And that gives rise. This comes out of a movement in the 1950s called the latter Rain Movement, and that gives rise to this global apostolic and prophetic movement. And the New Apostolic Reformation is one very influential set of leadership networks within this broader global apostolic and prophetic movement.
- [12:15]
Timothy
I have a question for you then. So in my understanding denominations, especially in like, you know, Christian spaces, right, there's bureaucracy, there's a lot of, you know, it takes time to change things. There's a lot of oversight. In theory anyway, we can argue how effective it is. But the whole point of its domination is that, you know, there's more parameters, there's more guidelines, there's more checks and balances and that, you know, churches can't go completely rogue. But again, I know it does depend on the domination we're talking about. But with this, it sounds like they're much more independent and like whoever's at the top of the local church is kind of the one in charge that's able to make the rules and just do what they want. I don't know if this is a fair comparison. So tell me if it's not, but I almost feel like one is more inherently trying to be democratic in nature while the other is a little more set up for a. This person rules over us because they've been chosen by God, so we have to follow their authority. I'm not sure if you think that's a fair characterization, but that's kind of what I'm hearing you say as you describe this.
- [13:16]
Matt Taylor
Yeah, I'm not sure. Like, there are plenty of independent charismatics who have very strong democratic sensibilities about church governance. And the way that they set up the individual congregation is very democratic where like, right, the congregation elects the minister and there's boards that have accountability that are also elected. I mean, that happens. But I think, I would think of it more as a difference between tradition and bureaucracy versus kind of freewheeling and unattached. Right. So denominations are the structures that have evolved in American Christianity especially, but really in global Christianity that allow for the carrying of traditions, the banding together of groups of churches across different regions, across different geographies. And so the denominations are kind of governance structures that, yes, hold pastors accountable, provide training for ministers, provide financing for congregations. So if you're independent or non denominational, it means you are forsaking all of these kind of structured accountability, regulation, bureaucratic approaches to doing church. And you're saying, no, we're going to do it ourselves. We're going to kind of recreate the model of church in our little microcosm. And this is why this apostle and prophet idea comes up in this space. Most denominations would say, well, we don't need apostles and prophets. We have bishops, we have presbyters, we have elders. Right. We have pastors, we have boards. Why would we need those things in this unstructured space? They're very open to new models and they're saying, oh, hold on a minute, this is the biblical model. This is something that's talked about in the Bible. This must be what we need to get back to and recreate. And then again, because they are carrying charismatic and believe in prophecy, they believe this is God's will. Right. This is God's revealed will for the church to move into these modes of apostolic and prophetic governance.
- [15:17]
Timothy
This is the APEST model.
- [15:18]
Matt Taylor
Right.
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Timothy
Apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers. Is that correct?
- [15:22]
Matt Taylor
Yeah. And APEST is like one way of abbreviating a lot of this comes out of Ephesians chapter four, which is where those five offices are mentioned. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, it's sometimes phrased as shepherds, sometimes as pastors. And teachers. And the other title that it often goes under today is fivefold ministry. So if you see a church that says, we are a fivefold ministry church, they're adopting this apostles and prophets mode again, mostly flowing out of their interpretation of Ephesians chapter 4.
- [15:55]
April
Does it also give just more free, I guess, ability for anybody in congregations to have words and prophecies instead of like, oh, it just has to be reserved for the pastor or whoever is ministering in charge. Like, you know, you get a free for all and you're encouraging just everyday churchgoers to tap into their own prophetic gifts.
- [16:20]
Matt Taylor
Yeah. And the kind of basic idea is that these five offices, they all have things to contribute to the life of the church, but functionally, within the way that they operate it, the apostles and prophets are the top docs because they would say, well, they go first. They're the ones in charge of the church in the early church, that's debatable, but that's their claim. Right. But then they also want to say, because they're charismatic, everyone plays. Right. Everyone gets to participate and join in these things. And even if you're not a prophet, you could still be prophetic or you could still receive prophecies. Right. And so, I mean, part of the reason this stuff is extremely popular and this is the fastest growing form of Christianity both in the world and in the United States today. Part of the reason it's so popular is people feel very empowered. People feel like they get kind of drawn in. They have these immersive worship experiences. They're encountering these really dynamic personalities, and there's space for them to explore their own spirituality, their own gifts, and to have what they would characterize as miraculous experiences.
- [17:26]
Timothy
You know what's interesting about this, I'm thinking about how I grew up and I had a really weird evangelical experience. Right. I touched so many, so many different corners of these different models. Like, you know, I was selling April a few episodes ago. I grew up on Matt, not, not Matt Walsh, on Paul Washer, who's a, you know, very like reformed, like, you know, the gospel alone, Calvinist type of theology. But also I did encounter Frank Viola. He's a big house church guy. And part of the reason that, that, that, that this house church model for him is so important. I mean, he wrote a book called Pagan Christianity that that completely shifted my theology and what the church is or isn't. But his whole point is that, you know, these, the current church structure creates spectators, not participants. And that, you know, house churches allow people to kind of give and receive together, and everyone's empowered to hear from God and to give a word. I don't think Frank Viola is part of the independent charismatic movement, as far as I understand it, but there's an ingredient there of that I find very alluring myself of, like, yeah, I'm also attracted to the idea of I'm empowered as a Christian to participate in the Sunday morning gathering where I can hear from God, I can give a word. You know, I can prophesy or something like that. So it's interesting hearing you talk about this, Matt, because I, I, in a healthy way, I can resonate with this idea. With this idea, right? Like, wow, I would love to feel empowered and like, God is using me and also being part of something bigger than myself without feeling like, you know, okay, the pastor is there and I'm here. I can never give back during that Sunday morning service. Does that make sense?
- [18:58]
Matt Taylor
Yeah. And I think that's why a lot of people are so attracted and drawn to these. These spaces, these models. Right. There's this sense that I can take ownership for my own faith. I am choosing to be part of this. The dangerous side of it is it's very detached from tradition. It's very detached from the historic commitments and learning of the church. And so another way to talk about this is it's a form of Christian restorationism, right? They're trying to get back. They're trying to restore this model, this idea of the early church. And for a lot of people, there's an intrinsic attachment and attraction of, oh, I want to live like the early church lived. I want to be like the early church. I want to have the miraculous experiences that they had. The problem is that they tend to kind of fetishize the early church rather than actually examine it. And if you go and read the Bible, the early church was full of problems, including problems around how they operated in these quote, unquote, charismatic gifts. Right. And so if we don't learn from the past, the dangers that we will replay the problems of the past, recreate the authoritarian structures of the past. And that is what we see happening all over the place in this independent charismatic space today. I think there are many wonderful, wonderful people in the independent charismatic space. It has become, especially in the United States, an incredibly toxic culture, especially at the leadership level. And the NAR has played a key role in that.
- [20:23]
April
I can attest to that because I grew up in this world. Not NAR specifically, but Charismatic Pentecostal. And one of the biggest dangers is they put Such an emphasis on the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit is speaking to people today, that you have people that might just have some wild thought that they have, and then they attribute that to the Holy Spirit and then they start spreading this thing that's not biblical, you know, whatever it is. And so it's how you get, like, I don't know how many people's marriages were just destroyed because someone gave them a prophetic word that, you know, they were unequally yoked and that they needed to leave their. Their spouse or it was okay for, you know, like, I've heard so many wild, wild stories growing up in this world and given weird prophetic words about me that some were kind of true, some were not. But it is also a very highly emotional environment. And so when you're feeling really big and strong feelings and having this, you know, you could say manipulative, but a very strong emotional experience, you can. You take that as almost proof that what you're experiencing is of God, and then it just keeps you in it for longer.
- [21:31]
Timothy
I can attest. I had someone tell me that they. That God told them we were going to get married. And I did not see it, but I believed it because they spoke on behalf of God. And I almost had a panic attack for a couple days thinking, I. I don't see it, but God, if this is your will, I'll submit to it. Like, you know, it's funny now, but in the moment, I was like, I don't know, 18, 19. I was young and, you know, I wanted to follow God with everything. I wanted to be the radical Christ follower. I wanted to go back to the early church model that lived in community with each other. Like, I was very attracted to that idea. And also I was freaking out that I was going to get married to someone who I had no physical or emotional attraction to on any level. And here I am panicking in the car, praying, God, change my mind.
- [22:14]
April
You know, I got both sides of the Christian dating because I had guys tell me that God told them I was supposed to be his wife.
- [22:22]
Timothy
Classic.
- [22:22]
April
And also, a guy told me all we ever did was hold hands in a prayer meeting. And he told me that Satan was using me to distract him from his calling.
- [22:33]
Timothy
Oh, goodness.
- [22:34]
April
Depending on the day, I was either, you know, this angel sent from heaven.
- [22:39]
Matt Taylor
Or being used of Satan, a manifestation of the Jezebel spirit there.
- [22:44]
April
April, Yes.
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Timothy
I mean, April, I confess, I definitely have tried a few times to get close to the girl in the prayer circle that I wanted to hold hands with, but only to try and make a soulmate, not trying to call her Jezebel.
- [22:58]
Matt Taylor
So there's a quote from a charismatic evangelist named Leonard Ravenhill that I think is very helpful for understanding how things work in this kind of charismatic, especially independent, charismatic space. And he writes in one of his books, he was a figure in the 20th century, but he writes that a man with an experience of God is never at the mercy of a man with an argument.
- [23:25]
April
And.
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Matt Taylor
Right. So the idea is, if you have the direct experience of God, if you know in your heart and in your soul that you have encountered God, then when people come to you with their various arguments, you never have to even pay attention to the arguments because you've been convinced at this existential, experiential level. And what possible argument could change your mind on that as a kind of model of spirituality that might be helpful for some people? Mystical experience, all that, that's fine. That's being imported into politics.
- [24:00]
Timothy
Right, Right.
- [24:01]
Matt Taylor
So the real issue that I have is not like, if people want to be non denominational and charismatic, great. If people want to follow apostles and prophets, I would have some caution for you about the leadership model and the way that it has played out. But fine, if that's your theological mood. The problem right now is all of these styles of spirituality, styles of preaching, styles of worship even, that were created to facilitate deeper Christian spirituality are now being imported directly into politics. And very effective political tools that are convincing people that Donald Trump is anointed by God, that there are prophecies about Donald Trump, that the enemies of Donald Trump are demonic, that they are manifestations of Satan in the world. And. Right. All of those things are now creating this spirituality around Trump that is making him into a messianic figure for many, many charismatic Christians. And that is deeply, deeply worrying because that is introducing a really toxic dynamic into our politics.
- [25:06]
Timothy
Was that always the case, though, for this independent charismatic world? Like you mentioned, it comes out of the 1950s, there's been a lot of movement. So this has been going on for a while now. And again, I didn't grow up charismatic, but I don't remember growing up evangelical. This level of messiah, like adoration for any president ever. So were there always hints of this space becoming hyper politicized with all of this language? Or is this a more new phenomena, maybe tied to the new episodic reformation? Like, what's your take on that?
- [25:35]
Matt Taylor
I mean, the potentiality was always there. Right. If people are claiming to have direct revelation from God, that can have some real political Juice. Right. And you can look outside Christianity to see how that plays out religiously around the world. We have never had a national level political figure in American life, from the President on down, who has had as much spiritual fervor, as many religious narratives, as many prophecies attached to them as Donald Trump. And that really has created a new dynamic in our politics. Now, that's not to say there weren't politics in conservative evangelicalism in the past. Right. I mean, we go back to the 1980s. Right. The rise of the religious right, Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed, I mean, we can do that whole story. The difference is that in the 1980s and 1990s, as you have this mobilization for the religious right, the assumption is that they are working within the parameters and rules of democracy. Right. So we are the Moral majority and we're going to use our demographic power to get our people voting. And if they vote the right way, then we can change society. As you've brought in these charismatic paradigms of experience and prophecy and spiritual warfare, a lot of those have pushed into more and more anti democratic moats. Right. Because if the enemies are not just our political opponents that we need to mobilize against, but they are demonstrations, Right. Then we can't compromise with them. We can't take half a loaf. We have to destroy them. Right? Right. And if Trump is the anointed king over the United States, then he needs to have carte blanche to do whatever he wants because God has given him this authority and this power. And we don't need democratic structures to hold him accountable because we have a king. We have a divinely anointed king. And so we just need to lean into trusting God's work through him. Right. So you can see how just these subtle little shifts in theology and emphasis very quickly kind of spiral out into some very anti democratic approaches to politics and the country.
- [27:59]
Katie
Hi, my name is Katie and I gladly support tne. My story of Christian fundamentalism is I got involved to create order out of what was kind of a chaotic life. And I chose classical education for my children. I taught at a small classical school during COVID And what that took from me was my joy and my delight. It led me to believe that I wasn't good the way that God made me. I was told that my cares, my passions and my desires were not helpful at that school. And really they just were misguided. I have so much grace for them. But I left really disillusioned by who Jesus is. And then I found T and E and just the humor, the insight, the intelligence that TNE brings to people. Exploring outside the basement of Christian fundamentalism is such a gift. And I hope that you will enjoy and support tne, too.
- [29:14]
Timothy
Why don't we go back to this chart because we started kind of broad, right? And we. We made our way to the independent charismatic section. And then you kind of hinted at the apostolic and prophetic movement, but there's still a little dot on this screen called the narrow. So that tells me that, that even though it's inside of all these little bubbles, it's still distinct. And I think, you know, in the book, you really do a great job talking about some of the key figures that really have given the NAR a lot of legs and a lot of energy to kind of be the driving force behind a lot of this messiah like language attached to trump the prophecies you call them. Is it. You call it not a meme. What's.
- [29:52]
Matt Taylor
Prophetic memes.
- [29:53]
Timothy
Prophetic memes. Thank you. I think it's really helpful. So, so bring us now to the nar. What's going on with the new episodic Reformation? Who's behind it? And how did this very fringe thing that was kind of laughed at by the mainstream evangelical world become now the ones who I would argue, are really driving this train?
- [30:11]
Matt Taylor
Yeah, I think you're right.
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Timothy
I think they are conducting the train. You don't drive a train.
- [30:15]
Matt Taylor
You can. They are the engineers on the train.
- [30:19]
Timothy
Thank you. Thank you.
- [30:20]
Matt Taylor
The. So as I was saying, so starting in 1996, this term new Apostolic Reformation is coined, and it centers around Peter Wagner, but really, Wagner was part of this broader group, and he was mentoring a bunch of these leaders, drawing them in. Some of them were his students from Fuller, some of them were people he had just gotten to know. Peter Wagner was also very influential leader in what was called the prayer and spiritual warfare movement in the 1990s. And so he's very popular figure in evangelicalism. And he's kind of drawing all these people into these circles and they're all starting to identify as apostles and prophets and saying, yeah, we're part of this new Apostolic Reformation program. And in 1999, he retires from Fuller Seminary in order to start building the NAR more kind of pragmatically, and he starts building all these networks and hundreds of leaders, non denominational pastors, charismatic evangelists, all are kind of joining Wegener's networks to say, we want to be part of this new and exciting thing, this new Apostolic Reformation. And when it starts out, their Focus is really on reforming the church. Right. We're going to change the model of church governance to have apostles and prophets be the key players. And they all are identifying as apostles and prophets, of course. Right. But then in the early 2000s, this one leader comes into those networks named Lance Wallno, and he has a prophecy called the Seven Mountain Mandate. And we can talk about the Seven Mountains if you want, but this prophecy is basically, the idea is that Christians are supposed to conquer the major areas of society and take power over them, take dominion over them. And this theology, this. This new prophecy around the seven mountains radicalizes the NAR and convinces Peter Wagner and all these other people that their goal is. Should not just be to reform the church, but to take over the world. And so in the late 2000s, they really start rolling out all these ideas. The seven mountains, apostles and prophets, spiritual warfare. And one of their key mentees, a woman named Sarah Palin, gets elevated as the vice presidential candidate under John McCain in 2008. And they think, wow, God is throwing open the doors for us to Republican politics. And they get really involved in supporting Sarah Palin, in bolstering her and John McCain. And then, of course, they lose. But by that point, they're very deeply entrenched in these Republican political circles, and they're waiting for another figure to come along like Sarah Palin, that they can invest in, that they can see as this kind of divinely anointed figure. And when Donald Trump hits the scene, they are primed and ready for him, and they are some of the first people to get on board. Donald Trump's one of the first Christian leaders to endorse Donald Trump. And today, there are many of Trump's evangelical advisors come out of these NAR circles, and they have created the theology of Christian Trumpism that is kind of fueling these narratives about Trump's divine anointing, his divine appointment, his salvation, narratives around him being a Cyrus figure. Right. All these things are coming out of charismatic prophecy circles, making their way into broader evangelical and Catholic and other conservative Christian circles. But the NAR is kind of the driving force, the ideological force that has propped Donald Trump up and given him this kind of spiritual aura that he himself has really leaned into. More recently, too.
- [33:50]
April
Didn't Lance also kind of appropriate the Seven Mountain Mandate from the visions that Lauren Cunningham and Bill Bright had back in the 70s?
- [34:03]
Timothy
Yeah.
- [34:04]
Matt Taylor
Yeah. So the story of the Seven Mountains, it's a fascinating story. So, yes, in 1975, Bill Bright, who was the founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, now called Crew and Lauren Cunningham, who's the founder of Youth with a Mission that everyone calls Ywam. They met in Colorado for dinner and they both claimed that they had received revelations the night before they met of seven arenas of society that Christians were supposed to be involved in. There's a lot of questions about the story and how they tell it. Even afterwards, some of them were still talking about like the six arenas of influence or something. And then suddenly they have to make it seven, because seven is the perfect number or whatever. But, yeah, so, but this, this, these ideas were kind of kicking around for 25 years before Lance Wall now comes on the scene and picks them up. But Wall now what he adds to this, and because their version was kind of an idea of if we go in, these are. They used to call them the seven spheres, right. And the sphere is non directional. Right.
- [35:04]
Timothy
How?
- [35:04]
Matt Taylor
And so they were saying we need to influence the seven spheres. Well, how do you influence a sphere? I guess you just kind of go into it, right. There's no way to like dominate a sphere. Right. But when Lance Wallnow comes along, he's the one who introduces this imagery of mountains and says that it's a prophecy about mountains and mountains are directional. Right. There's a top of a mountain. That's the position of control. And then Wall now, and then Wagner, who starts to mentor wall now and really kind of adopt these seven mountains ideas. And then the NAR networks, they take this seven mountains frame and it's a very portable, very understandable model, but it's an outline for Christian supremacy. How should Christians take power over a society? Well, here's a strategy for doing it. You need to target entertainment, you need to target the government, you need to target the education sector. Right. And if you look around the country at the strategy the religious right and the Christian nationalists are following, it's the seven mountains today that is the, the driving ideology underneath all of these school board takeovers that we see going on, underneath this kind of mobilizing around Donald Trump and the MAGA movement to take over the federal government. Even some of the dismantling that is going on in the second Trump administration is about Trump taking control over the government mountain and then using that power to institute Christian power in these other sectors of society.
- [36:29]
April
It's interesting too, because I do think there's a lot of people that may not even be in ar, but grow up in these more Pentecostal charismatic spaces that pretty much believe the seven mountain mandate, even if they don't call it that. Like I was taught very similar things, that it's, you know, it's our duty to, like, Christians to. Or, or it's just a good thing for Christians to influence all aspects of society. And like my family, focused on media and, and wanting to, you know, influence the world through media. And I think that's one reason why, you see, even if it's outside of politics, you. You have a Christian version of everything. You know, it's this, the goal to kind of, you know, take culture, make it Christian, but to provide people who want to be Christian a Christian version of whatever it is they could want. Christian news, Christian talk shows, Christian movies, Christian, you know, whatever, Christian schools, education, all of the, the things is all encompassing. But now you're seeing that not only are they wanting to do that for just Christians and churches, but to expand that to all of society.
- [37:40]
Matt Taylor
And I want to always be clear that within a democratic society, it's perfectly fine for people to want to influence each other. It's perfectly fine for people to want to persuade each other to say, hey, we think we have a better model over here that, that. That's how democratic polit, right? And as long as people are saying, hey, look, we have this great version of Christianity that we want to convince other Christians that they should join or we think that everyone should be a Christian and we want to try to persuade you to become a Christian, all of that is fine. Within a pluralistic democracy, there's space for that. Where it starts to worry me is when people start saying, we are empowered by God to take over, to take control of these things, and that is our mandate. That is what God has told us we need to do. Because at some point, your understanding of the will of God is going to come in conflict with the will of the people. And this is what we saw in the 2020 election, right? All these prophets and all these folks, all these NAR leaders claimed that they believed that Donald Trump was destined to win that election, that God had said Trump should win that election. And when Trump did not win, they said, well, this must be a demonic conspiracy and we need to overturn this election because it was not a fair election, because the fair election should have been the one that came out. God's will. And so therefore, we have power over the election. Right?
- [39:03]
April
That is. That argument always made me laugh too, because I'm like, so you're saying it was God's will for Trump to win, but Democrats outside smarted God and stole the election?
- [39:16]
Matt Taylor
Well, it wasn't just the Democrats, it was Satan, Right? Right.
- [39:20]
Timothy
And the Deep State and the globalists and the Marxists, you know, et cetera. You know, Matt, I'm curious, because I'm curious how. How do. And I'm not sure if there's a crossover here, but how do NAR type of folks think about, like, spiritual warfare? Right.
- [39:38]
Matt Taylor
Like.
- [39:38]
Timothy
Because I'm even thinking about that clip of Paula White. You know, actually, I pulled it up here because that's just what I do for fun. Sometimes I have this stuff ready to go. But this one of her, you know, summoning angels. In fact, let's just play so people can hear it one more time. And then I kind of want your thoughts on what's going on here, because my understanding, too, is that Paula White, you wouldn't say that she's nar, but she's definitely in that world of apostles and prophets and teachers. Is that a fair assessment?
- [40:02]
Matt Taylor
Yes. So just for category's sake, she's in the broader apostolic and prophetic movement. In fact, she has called herself an apostle. She has submitted as a mentee of an apostle, actually, in Ghana, a guy named Nicholas Duncan Williams. And so she kind of operates in that world. She is never a part of the NAR network. She didn't know Peter Wagner. She didn't run in those circles. She now knows a lot of those people and hangs out with them. But she kind of came up in a different wing of the apostolic and prophetic movement.
- [40:29]
Timothy
Okay, let's play this for a second, and then we'll get your thoughts.
- [40:31]
E
And strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike until you have victory Victory for every enemy that is aligned against you Let there be that we would strike the ground for you will give us victory God I hear a sound of abundance of rain I hear a sound of victory I hear a sound of shouting and singing I hear a sound of victory I hear a sound of an abundance of rain I hear a sound of victory I hear a sound of an abundance of rain I hear a sound of victory the Lord Lord says it is done the Lord says it is done the Lord says it is done For I hear victory, victory, victory, victory in the quarters of heaven in the quarters of heaven Victory, victory, victory, victory, victory, victory, victory for angels are being released right now. Angels are being dispatched right now. For angels have even just been dispatched from Africa right now. Africa right now. Africa right now. From Africa right now.
- [41:38]
Timothy
Okay, we can stop it there. I am. I'm really curious because, look, let's face it. I think to people who did not grow up even Christian or evangelical. This is bizarre. It's bizarre for me as someone who grew up inside that world. But I don't want to just make fun of it or mock it. I want to get like, there's obviously a logic that Paula White has in her mind where this makes sense. Right. The incantations, angels from Africa, the speaking in tongues. From your expertise as someone who studies this stuff so closely, when you see Paula White doing this, what are you seeing?
- [42:10]
Matt Taylor
Yeah, and just in terms of locating this historically. Right. So the election in 2020 happens on a Tuesday then. Remember, if you recall, it was. It was a close election. Right. And so it was for several days. It was several days before the press called it for Joe Biden. This prayer meeting that she's leading, I think happened on the Wednesday after the election. So it's like the election had not been called and she's trying to swing it Trump's way spiritually. So, yeah, within what she's doing there is what's called spiritual warfare. And spiritual warfare is just basically the idea that there are angels and demons who operate in this invisible spiritual realm all around us. And that Christians can participate in the battles between those angels and demons, that those angels and demons, their battles affect us. But we can also participate in those battles through prayer, through worship, through kind of fasting. Right. Through exorcism. Right. Those are all styles of spiritual warfare within the independent charismatic space. And especially in these NAR circles, they practice what they call strategic level spiritual warfare. And so the concept is there are high ranking demons, commander level demons, demon generals who have power and authority over literal physical space, physical territory, what Wagner called them territorial spirits. And so the idea of strategic level spiritual warfare is you don't just target the little grunt demons, the low ranking demons, the privates, you target the generals, you go after the high level demons. And that certain human beings, apostles and prophets, have special authority to call, to mobilize Christians to pray. Right. And that's what she's doing. Right. She's doing this video, she's mobilizing Christians to pray, but then she's also commanding the troops of heaven. She's saying, we're dispatching angels from Africa, we're dispatching angels from South America to come to the United States to battle on behalf of Donald Trump. The implicit in all of that is that there is a demonic conspiracy that is trying to stop Donald Trump from becoming president. And so she's saying, I have this authority as an apostle to call on these angels from Africa and South America to come to the United States to assist us in our spiritual warfare against the forces of Satan that are trying to prevent Donald Trump from winning this election. And that's the spirituality of January 6th. Go and watch what happens on January 6th. Paul the White prays at the rally on January 6th, doing some of these same spiritual warfare things. But all around the Capitol, the expressions of Christianity that you see are by and large expressions of spiritual warfare. People trying to battle against what they believe is this demonic conspiracy that they claimed was the thing that was stealing the election from Trump.
- [45:03]
Timothy
So they really believe that there is a spiritual world with real beings that are impacting specific areas geographically in, you know, on. On earth, and that they, as apostles and prophets chosen by God, have a unique or extra special power or ability to advocate for other angels, people on Team God, to fight those demons. Is that like a fair way of saying it?
- [45:29]
Matt Taylor
Yeah. And they'll sometimes even call themselves generals of spiritual warfare. Right. Satan has his generals. We are the generals on God's side who can command the forces of heaven, but also mobilize the troops on earth, the spiritual warriors on earth. And that's the mobilization around Geniusics, as they're saying. There's this huge confrontation that's going to happen between the forces of God and the forces of Satan. And we need to be on site, we need to be boots on the ground. And I have tracked more than 60 independent charismatic leaders to Washington D.C. on January 6, including a handful of major NAR leaders who are there. And that's what my book is about, is that mobilization, who those leaders are including. I have a whole chapter on Paula White. She's a fascinating figure and the role that she has played in kind of brokering this relationship between the independent charismatic world and the MAGA world, the Trump camp.
- [46:22]
April
So Paula White's not technically nar, although I would say maybe NAR adjacent in beliefs, whatever. Who would you say are the main players in nar? Would Bill Johnson from Bethel be the most well known in the movement?
- [46:40]
Matt Taylor
I would not. Again, I would not count Bethel as part of the nar. Bill Johnson is friends with a lot of NAR leaders. He is an apostle. He's part of the Apostolic and Protect movement. He's kind of trying to do his own brand of apostolic and prophetic. He knew Peter Wagner. He didn't really want to be part of Peter Wagner's thing. But Bill Johnson is best friends with Cheon, who's one of the major NAR apostles.
- [47:03]
Timothy
I got him. I knew he was going to Come up. I had him ready, was there on.
- [47:08]
Matt Taylor
January6, spoke at one of the Trump rallies on January 5th in Washington D.C. and I mean, right? Chae on is becoming in many ways the charismatic godfather of the militia movement on the west coast, as far as I can tell. I mean, I was at a conference recently and had a researcher into white supremacy come up to me on one of the breaks and he was like, I just read your book and you'll never believe what happened to me last week. I was interviewing a leader from the base. The base is like a deeply anti Semitic white supremacist movement founded in 2019. He's like, he's like, I was interviewing this white supremacist leader. In the middle of our interview, he just name drops Chaeyon to me. And four years ago, when I first started studying this, I would have been like, what the hell? I have no idea why that would happen. I was like, I am not surprised in the least because you can see how Chaon has become this pivotal figure on the west coast, blending together all these kind of militia movements. And even a figure like Sean Floyd was mentored by Chae on. And it's come up kind of in his circle and is still very much sponsored by Chaon.
- [48:15]
April
So is Sean Foyt in ar?
- [48:17]
Matt Taylor
Oh, yeah. Sean Foyt grew up in these circles, was mentored by these folks. I mean, Sean, as far as I know, has never identified as a prophet or an apostle. So he's not in the leadership networks per se, but a lot of those leadership networks are now defunct. He was mentored by a bunch of NAR leaders. So Chae on would be one of the major NAR leaders. To answer your question, Cindy Jacobs, very, very prominent prophet, maybe one of the most important prophets in the world, at least in terms of charismatic Christianity. Lou Engel works very closely with Cheon as kind of his right hand prophet. Lance Wall now is still extremely active. I would say that Lance is probably the most effective Christian propagandist for Donald Trump today. Dutch Sheets, very, very important figure. Chuck Pierce, very prominent prophet. So that was kind of Peter Wagner's inner circ was that crowd. And then you had kind of radiating circles further out of these kind of NAR networks of people who were kind of aligned and connected with Wagner.
- [49:21]
April
Sorry, go ahead, finish your thought.
- [49:22]
Matt Taylor
I was just gonna say, within Trump's advisory circles, Trump's own kind of evangelical advisory circles, Paula White is always the chair. She's now the head of the faith office in the White House. But she has Brought in a bunch of these NAR figures. There's an apostle, Guillermo Maldonado, a guy named Mario Bromnik, who's a very prominent Christian Zionist figure, helped create Project Esther. And Jim Garlow is another NAR leader with a lot of power in Trump's inner circle.
- [49:52]
April
Okay, so just, just so I can be clear, because I always assumed Bill Johnson was part of nar, because didn't he write a Seven Mountain Mandate book with Lance while now initially? So could you be someone who subscribes to the Seven Mountain Mandate and not be in ar?
- [50:10]
Matt Taylor
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I'm very conservative when I talk about who's actually in the nar, because in charismatic circles, the NAR is treated as like kind of a boogeyman. Like, oh, that never exists. That's not a thing. That's just an accusation people throw around. So I try to be very historically grounded and say, here are the people who are actually in Wagner's networks. Bill Johnson was kind of orbiting around all of that the whole time. And part of the power of the NAR is not just about the leaders in their networks. They are idea generators, they are meme generators. They create these prophecies, these paradigms like the seven Mountains that then all these other leaders pick up on and play around with. So when we're talking about this non denominational charismatic space, there are not a lot of clear borders, Not a lot of clear boundaries. It's kind of this ooze that everyone, all these leaders are just kind of like moving around in the ooze, hanging out with each other. It's kind of an amoeba like space. And groups are always kind of forming coalitions. So Bethel is part of the broader apostolic and prophetic movement. It overlaps oftentimes with the nar, Similar with the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, another kind of independent charismatic brand. Or Morningstar Ministries with Rick Joyner, another independent charismatic brand. But all those folks hang out with NAR leaders. They partner with NAR leaders. They invite NAR leaders to speak in their space. So it's not like these are hermetically sealed groups. It's more like it's a network of all these friends, some of whom were in Peter Wagner's network and some of whom just are kind of hangers on.
- [51:42]
April
So NAR is more of a network of people and not necessarily like theological belief system. It's more of a certain sect of people because they would share a lot of the same theological beliefs with the larger circles.
- [51:59]
Matt Taylor
Yeah, the way that I would Think about it is in that independent charismatic space, there's a celebrity culture globally with thousands of leaders like Paula White, like Lance Wall, now like Bill Johnson, like Rick Joyner, who are all celebrities in this independent charismatic space. And they function in charismatic media. There's all kinds of niche charismatic media like Charisma News or God TV or tbn, cb. And in that space, the NAR leaders are some of the most influential celebrities. But yeah, the NAR was always a set of networks that was built by Peter Wagner and that had kind of levels of connection to Peter Wagner and people like Chae on or Cindy Jacobs or Lance Wall. Now they were part of the inner circle. They were part of the closest ring of Peter Wagner mentees, and he vouched for them and helped them gain the celebrity that they have today. But they're also just very talented figures. And so they tend to dominate, at least in the charismatic media space. In the US The NAR leaders are some of the most influential thought leaders.
- [53:12]
Timothy
Matt, is it fair to kind of compare it to the exvangelical kind of thing where it's like you have new evangelicals, post evangelical collective, you have ex evangelicals. We're all kind of orbiting each other. We have a lot of agreement a lot of things. We have a distinction still. Is it kind of like that where you have like independent charismatics, you get your episodic people, your nar, they're all like in the same soup. They're all cross pollinating each other's content whenever needed. But like they also are kind of distinct in a way as well. Is that. Is that I'm just trying to give us. Because understandably, it's very difficult to wrap our heads around something that is so loose and like you said, oozy. So I'm trying to get people some kind of other framework to grab onto that's like. Well, there's maybe a comparison here and you have a foot kind of both worlds. What do you think about that?
- [53:54]
Matt Taylor
The analogy I would more use is Hollywood. It's more like Hollywood in that all these folks are celebrities and they all have different projects that they work on. And like Bill Johnson and Lance Wall now they work together on the Seven Mountains book.
- [54:08]
Timothy
Right.
- [54:09]
Matt Taylor
It was Lance Wallnau's idea, but then Bill Johnson helped him put the book together. Now does that mean that they're. That now they are only working together in the future? No, they just starred together in that feature and they're all celebrities and they're all chummy and they all hang and there's certain rules and conventions about being one of those celebrities. And they're all trying to build their brands, but they all have their own independent brands that they're trying to hold onto. Right. The other analogy I would use is, especially right now, is it's a lot like the Mafia. You have these kind of independent power circles, and they've kind of reached some certain power sharing arrangements, and there's a definite pecking order. And if you want to become one of the celebrities, you got to become a made man or a made woman, and you really got to kind of climb the pecking order. Right. And you got to get in good with the leaders of that space. But there's no rules. There's no institutions. Right. It's all informal. It's all unwritten. And. But there are real rules. And the major rule today is you cannot say anything bad about Donald Trump. You can say whatever you want, theologically. You can issue wild prophecies. You can take all your followers for all their money, but if you say something bad about Donald Trump, you'll get blackballed.
- [55:22]
April
So are people in nar? Would they say they are in nar? Because I know you say some people say it's would, you know? Yeah, it's like, would. Do they own that label?
- [55:36]
Matt Taylor
20 years ago, they probably would have. Today, probably not. So the other thing about that space, right? When you don't have tradition, when you don't have institutions, the independent charismatic space has the memory of a goldfish, because there's nothing to carry traditions. And so things move around, terminology shifts. And the NAR was a very, very popular brand in the 2000s as Peter Wagner and all these people were gravitating towards it. And then as it started to come into the news, especially around Sarah Palin, as reporters started asking like, oh, who is in the nar? Oh, this seems like it's this very secret, very political organization. What's going on there? All these charismatic leaders. Oh, no, no, I'm not. No. What nar? Who's ever heard of the nar? No, that's not me. I'm sitting over here. Oh, I believe in apostles and prophets, but I was never with Peter Wagner. Right. So suddenly, everyone distanced themselves from it. And now in that space, there's very little memory, even of these networks as they existed. I mean, I have all the documents that didn't show them the networks. But. But apart from the people who are there, a guy like Sean Foyt probably doesn't even know what the new Apple Corporation is even Though it has shaped his entire life.
- [57:01]
Timothy
Okay, well, let me do this. First, I need to confess something to all of you on, on the Tim and April show, and you can judge me for it, but I'm going to show you all a picture of me and Lance Wall. Now, I have met Lance because as many people know, I go to Turning Point USA's America Fest every single year. And he was speaking there. And I'm walking in the, I'm walking on the floor and call it a God moment. I sat down to rest my weary feet and Lance sits down right next to me and I'm like, okay, God, okay, I get it. That's hilarious. So I'm like, hey, Lance, can I get a picture? He's like, yeah, sure. He has no clue who I am. So I snapped this photo. I actually texted Matt, like, in the moment, I'm like, matt, you're not going to believe who I just ran into. But, you know, just to give you all a sense of, of how much of the popularity of someone like a Lance Wall now who maybe a few years ago was seen as on the fringes, this guy got a main speaking slot at America Fest, which is home to 20,000 people, hosted by Turning Point USA, the one of the biggest far right organizations in existence today that does $80 million a year in funding. And Lance, they. Lance spoke and he espoused the Seven Mountain mandate. And you know, Trump is a Cyrus figure. The whole, the whole thing, Matt, as you could imagine, Lance went into and it was, it was applauded and celebrated. And that kind of brings me to my question for you. I'm always just so curious from your vantage point, Matt, what do these folks want? Right? Me and April, we joke that if all the Christian nationalists got all the power they wanted, they're going to start fighting over, is it the Catholic one? Is it your, Is it your Doug Wilson type of Christian nationalism? Is it your Lance Wall now type of Christian nationalism? Because they're just, they're all so different theologically when it comes to, like, how they want to get some of this stuff done, even if there's a lot of commonality. So let's say that Lance Wall now and Cheon and all those folks, I mean, Peter Wagner passed away, so he's not in the picture anymore. Cindy Jacobs, Paula White, let's say they get the magic wand to just do the abracadabra. America is made how we want it. What do they want? And what would happen in your estimation, if they got the power that they're seeking?
- [59:10]
Matt Taylor
It's a really interesting question because they don't know. So, I mean, this isn't going to shock you, probably, but Lance Wall now is not a policy wonk. He is not somebody with a deeply considered political philosophy, I guess is the way I'd put it. These guys, they're entrepreneurs, they're prophets, right? And they claim that they have all this spiritual authority and this revelation from God. So I think what they want is power. And they would spiritualize that in a lot of different ways and say, well, power means dominion, and here's all the Bible references we can line up around Christians having dominion or power means revival and means more people becoming our kind of Christian. Power means the reformation of society. We have this divine blueprint in the seven mountains for how to reform society. But I interviewed Chae on at one point and I asked him this question. I said, you know, you and your colleagues talk a lot about discipling nations, that we need to disciple the nation. And what does that look like? Because there's a lot of Runway left between wherever we are now and what your envision of a disciple nation is. And I hear a lot of yada, yada, yada in there, right? What about all the people who don't want to have their nation be discipled? What about the people who don't want Christianity to be in control of their nation? How are they going to fare in this disciple nation that you envision? And his response was fascinating. He said, no, it's going to be good for everyone. Because in the same way that when a father in a household converts to Christianity, the whole household is better off.
- [61:08]
Timothy
Wow.
- [61:10]
Matt Taylor
And I was just like, on some level, it was hard for me to believe that he actually believed that, because how can you be a pastor or somebody who works with congregations and not have seen countless instances in which a Christian father was abusive, a Christian father was harmful to the household. Right. In which the religious fervor of a male figure contributed greatly to the harm of that household. Right. But that was the analogy that he chose to use. Right? And so what that tells me is they haven't really thought this through in their mind. They have all these kind of idealized visions of we'll be spiritually victorious and when we come to power, everyone will love us, everyone will be so happy. And if people are opposed to us, it's just because the demons are inside them and want to stop them. And they have a very, very simple, what we would call in scholarly world anthropology, a very, very simple understanding of humanity, that humanity is either good and on God's side, and therefore it agrees with them, or humanity is infested with demons and needs to be liberated. And so they're like, well, everyone will greet us as liberators when we come to power because we will have set them free from their demons. So there's this profound naivete, and I totally agree with you. I think if the Christ Nationalist coalition actually came to power, the internecine civil war that would kick off as you have the Catholics trying to impose their, like, Thomistic Aquinas vision for society and the common good versus the Reformed people and their vision of theonomy versus the charismatics who want to say, well, apostles and prophets need to lead all these sectors of society. I mean, it would just be chaos because they've papered over all their differences for the sake of Trump and the coalition. But underneath that, there were all these unexamined disagreements that they are not wanting to address. And that came to the surface when Paula White was appointed head of the faith office. A number of people, a number of Christian leaders kind of were like, hold on her, Right. But the NAR people were like, well, of course her, because she's our person.
- [63:23]
April
It's been really interesting to watch as someone who grew up in this charismatic space that typically is more egalitarian and more pro women, you know, believing that women can also be apostles and pastors and preachers. Obviously not every sect, but the sect that I grew up in was that way. And to see them working side by side with Doug Wilson or William Wolf, who don't believe women should be leaders over men ever to see like them. And even Paula White this past week was in an interview and said that she, you know, she submits to her husband, her third husband, I believe. Third husband, yeah. But that she submits to him. And that, you know, that's the role of the wife, is to submit to her husband while she's leading the faith office and leading a bunch of men, that's. That's been a weird part for me because I'm like, Paula, she's like our real life Serena Joy out here. Like, they're not. If. If the certain groups get in charge, like, you're not going to be leading that faith office anymore.
- [64:26]
Matt Taylor
Yeah. And you have to actually listen very carefully to what she says there, because the way that she phrases it, there's a lot of wiggle room in the way that she frames the submission thing. I think that was more PR than genuine. But that's a topic for another day. But, yeah, I would say there's two areas in which this independent charismatic space does not conform to most people's impressions of American Christian nationalism. One is around gender. They're much more open to female leaders. Women can be apostles, women can be prophets. And so Paula White, if you watch the circle of religious advisors around Trump, she is the leader, she is the chair, she is the convener, she is the bridge builder, she's the gatekeeper. But a lot of times in those pictures, she's the only woman, right? And so bringing all these men in. And she has, and I try to get it, talk about this in my book, she has a very complicated relationship with Ginger. She's a very empowered woman leader in the church. And yet at the same time, she has to kind of fit into these kind of conventional gender roles at times. So that's one dimension. The other is that the independent charismatic space is the most multi ethnic sector of evangelicalism in the United States. And so a lot of the leaders in these networks, including a lot of the Christians of color who are advisors to Trump, come out of these independent charismatic circles. And so when we talk about white Christian nationalism, that's a real thing. There really are white Christian nationalists. It really is an ideology. I wouldn't use that terminology to refer to the NAR or most of the independent charismatics. Their approach to race is much more complicated and they've got this very multiethnic coalition now. They are in coalition, though, with a lot of white supremacists. Right, and why are, why is the leader from the base name checking chae on a Korean American apostle? Because he, he's operating in some of the same spaces as, and that's the, again, the, the far right today is not coherent, but it is messianic around Trump. And that's what, that's the glue that's holding them together.
- [66:32]
Timothy
Well, that is, that is what is so fascinating about this whole thing. I think this might be a good question to end on is, I mean, look, just for example, take look at this picture for a second, right? This picture says so many things. This is a picture of Trump being prayed over. You have Robert Jeffries over here to the right, and then you have there's Paula White, right? But on the far left, you got Al Mohler and William Wolf. Now, those two men are like, I mean, they essentially say that women in any kind of leadership role in the church or in spiritual authority over men is so unbiblical that you're not even a real Christian, right? And here are these people who make A living off of trying to espouse that, you know, real Christianity has to come back to America. And look, Trump is doing that as they sit in a room with Paul the White, who is blatantly everything that they say a true Christian isn't. But they are willing to lay hands and to sit in the same room and to pray over the same person for the sake of, I guess, quote unquote, the greater good. And that brings me to kind of my big question that Matt, all this time, for years, I think April will agree with me. We've been trying to answer. And that is what is up with this fascination and this obsession with Trump, a man who so clearly does not embody any of at least the so called core values or principles that they would say that they're fighting for, right? Family values, sexual purity, all these things. He obviously doesn't embrace that. Even the idea of family values. I mean, tearing apart children from their parents and deporting legal US Citizens, it's just again, so inhumane. And yet these people go, no, this is who God is, is using. I understand that the typical answer, the answer that I give when people ask me this is that, well, these people want power more than anything else. In your estimation, as someone who has, who has studied this stuff extremely closely, who is very nuanced, who, who wants to be accurate, you know, you're very conservative with who you put in the nar camp and who you put out, just so that way you come across as credible, which you are, what is your best estimation, on the logic of someone who is in this space and is like Trump is being used by God, despite the very antichrist policies and positions and life that Trump himself lives.
- [68:50]
Matt Taylor
Okay, so let me, let me start with anthropology and then do Christian history and then get to Trump.
- [68:56]
Timothy
You got it?
- [68:58]
Matt Taylor
So if you think about where human beings came from, how did we become the kind of beings that we are today? Well, we evolved over millions, hundreds of thousands of years in tribal cultures. And in a lot of those tribal cultures, maybe even a majority of them, there was an exceptional man. And it was often like the alpha, right, who had the strength and the assertiveness to take power. And they were the protector. They were the one who held us all in check, but who also kept us safe. And the rules didn't apply to that special chieftain or king or emperor, Right? It was because they were the one appointed by God to protect all the rest of us, right? And so if they had three or four wives, well, that's just what happens when you're a king, right? And so we're hardwired as humanity towards a certain form of authoritarianism. It's just kind of built in to our instinctual basis. And in many ways, the Enlightenment and the growth of democracy have been this long process of extricating our minds from this soup of authoritarianism that has been there for most of human history. If you think about Christian history, starting around the 4th century, you start to have this emergence of a form of Christian imperialism. And you had all these Christian theologies saying that the king or the emperor or the Caesar is appointed by God and we as Christians have power and Christians are entitled to superiority in society, a superior form of citizenship, because were the right ones. Right. All that we're seeing today with Christian nationalism is just the warmed up leftovers of that legacy of Christian imperialism. And the Christian superiority complex that emerged from is antithetical to the teachings of Jesus. But it's a very big part of Christian history. Right. And so these folks are just tapping into these very, very deep currents, both in our kind of human psychology and then also within Christian theology and Christian history. Why did they fixate on Donald Trump? Well, I think if we think about the seven mountains, it gives us some sense of this, right? So in seven mountains theology, each of the mountains and there's, it's government, religion, family, education, media, arts and entertainment, business and commerce, that each one of those, they would say, has a culture. And in order for someone to conquer that mountain, they need to play by the rules of that culture. Culture. And so they would say the government culture is about dominance, it's about power and coming to power. And sometimes you got to be a dirty trickster, sometimes you got to be unethical to come to power in the government mountain because those are just the rules of that culture. And we don't want that. A pastor or an apostle or a prophet probably wouldn't do so well in the government mountain. But a bully like Donald Trump, he has succeeded in the government mountain. And that must mean God's on his side. And because he says he's on the side of Christians, well, he gives us more power. So he must be on God's side. Right? And once you adopt that mentality, then suddenly you can have all these prophecies that tap into the divine right of kings. And Donald Trump is anointed by God. He might not be a good Christian, but he's God's man in the White House to change our society, to give us power. And I mean, it does all really come back to they do want power, and they've shaped all these narratives around Donald Trump, all this propaganda around Donald Trump that is about giving him power and then kind of at a secondary level, giving them power. Right. But today, that is propaganda that is believed by a quarter, a third of the country. I mean, huge swaths of the country, the MAGA movement is built around this messianic aura of Trumpism. And these people have built their spirituality now around Trump to a very large degree. And so once you move someone out of the realm of human politicians to be critiqued and into the realm of divinely anointed savior, well, you can come up with any rationale to justify anything they do at that point. And that's the problem today is Christian theology should be at the forefront of critiquing the Trump administration for the dehumanizing ways that it is operating, for the unchristian ways that it is operating. Right, for the Antichrist ways that it is operating. But instead, Christian theology has become the foundation of this mythos around Trump, this cult of personality, this messianic attachment to Trump, and it's created a hammerlock for Trump around a huge part of the US Population. And that's what brought him back to power, and that's what's keeping him in the good graces of all these Christians. And it's. I don't see an easy way to untie that Gordian knot.
- [74:08]
April
Fun times.
- [74:12]
Timothy
Fun times.
- [74:14]
April
I mean, not. But, you know, yeah, also, like, just like the fruits of the spirit. I just want to read the fruits of the spirit, right? And just see, like, which ones of these Trump has ready. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control.
- [74:35]
Timothy
I hear check, check, check, check, check, check. Especially, I've never seen anyone more principled and self controlled than Donald J. Trump. Up.
- [74:46]
April
What about, what about gentleness? Like, Donald Trump just screams gentle. Right?
- [74:53]
Timothy
I. I'm sure there's a psychology that a psychologist that we could also find at some point to help us understand just how the human brain can do this. Right. Like, how can you claim that, hey, the. I have a biblical worldview. How can you claim that? I follow the Bible. You know, I'm, I'm a Christian. You, you read that and then you go, yeah, but, you know, Trump's kind of doing what we want, so it's all good. But Joe Biden is like literally the Antichrist. The guy is more Christian than Donald Trump. He's more, he's more committed to Jesus than Donald Trump. As imperfect as he is. It's Just. It's just. That is what still, all these years later, just blows my mind is seeing the cognitive dissonance just so clear. We all have that to a degree, right? We all have contradictions. We're all human beings. But just to see people say, I follow, I'm a Christian, I'm a little Christ. And Jesus is like, hey, what you do for the least of these, you do to me. And they're like, ah, we should deport those people. It's like, like, I don't understand it.
- [75:47]
Matt Taylor
But Tim, again, a man with an experience has nothing to fear from a man with an argument. You're right. Right. And so they have been given this whole idea of Trump as Messiah, Trump as a savior, right. That that is built in for them. Now that they've had spiritual experiences, they've heard prophecies direct from God telling them that. And once you're convinced of that, the human mind has a remarkable capacity to rationalize and justify and ignore and to gerrymander reality to fit our assumptions about it.
- [76:29]
April
It's very similar to. You also have these people, especially if you grow up in this world where you are able to use mental gymnastics to always be on God's side, no matter what you're doing, if something bad happens to you, like, you know, Sean Foyt not selling one of his most recent albums, well, it was an attack of the Enemy, you know, but if his album does do really well, it's God blessing him. And you, you, you turn things positive that happen, it's because God's blessing you because you're doing such great work. And then bad things that happen to you, it's Satan attacking you because you're doing such great work. And so there's literally no lessons to ever be learned because it can either be from God or from Satan. And just you use it to fuel whatever it is that you're doing and to keep you doing what you're doing to always be a good person.
- [77:15]
Matt Taylor
And that's what makes these folks just incredible propagandists is they have been trained as part of their leadership, training with how to give people powerful experiences and how to rationalize themselves as always being conduits of God's will. And they've taken that skill set that was developed within the churches and within kind of media, and they brought it into politics to great effect. And it is winning over all kinds of Christians, radicalizing all kinds of Christians today. And these folks, at the end of the day, I don't think they see Trump anymore as a vehicle for enacting their agenda. Trump has become the agenda, and they are there to rationalize and propagandize him.
- [78:03]
Timothy
Yeah. I think one important takeaway for all of us listening in in this conversation is a reminder to be self reflective of our own biases. Right. And our own cognitive dissonance and our own tendency to want to, you know, Scott Coley calls them legitimizing narratives. Right. This idea of, like, the stories that we tell ourselves that can justify a lot of harm towards our neighbors. I think that no matter what side of the political spectrum you fall on in 2025America, we have an obligation just to be as aware as possible of that and to be willing to change when someone else points out that blind spot that you just can't see. Right? Because I can, as someone who was radicalized by this evangelical world, who believes in the way of Jesus, I can find myself being drawn to my own extreme tendencies in the name of reform or change, or I'm just so sick of it, or I don't want to see anyone deported. And I think that if we're not care, if I'm not careful, I'll speak for myself here. I can end up becoming a different kind of fundamentalist that can also harm people in the name of, you know, trying to do the right thing. So I think that's a big takeaway for me in this conversation is like, it's easy to see how wild the NAR and independent charismatic world is and how out of touch they are. But also, I'm not careful. I can become the very same thing on the other side of the coin if I'm not always thinking about my own blind spots.
- [79:25]
Matt Taylor
Just really quick. Yeah, I think that is a great point. And the reality is we are all prone to dehumanizing our opponents, and that is something that we have to be self reflective about. And so even when I try to write about these NAR folks, I try to give as much humanity, as much context, as much texture to who they are as I possibly can. Because I don't want people to just say, oh, they're crazy. Well, they're not crazy. They're extremely talented. They're ideological, they believe this stuff. And I think you'll underestimate them if you think that they're crazy because they have been incredibly successful in remaking American politics and remaking American evangelicalism. And if you just want to keep saying, oh, that's fringy or that's weird, that just shows how fringy you are.
- [80:15]
Timothy
Yeah, I agree. Well, Matt, Listen, I appreciate you making time for us as we do this deep dive on Christian nationalism. Having you come on and talk about the narrat and the independent charismatic world is incredibly helpful for me in April, I'm sure for the audience. Your book the Violent Ticket by Force is out now. It's a great read. I recommend it. You treat your your subjects with such care and such humanity. I think it's a really important lesson for all of us and it's also very accurate. So I appreciate you so much. We'll keep in touch. I'm sure we'll have you back at some point because Lance Wild now and the Seven Mountain Mandate is really a whole episode in and of itself because there's so much more that we could have gotten into. But I appreciate you being here. Just thanks for your time.
- [80:53]
Matt Taylor
Well, thank you and it's always a pleasure.
- [80:55]
Timothy
Absolutely.
- [80:55]
April
Thanks, Matt.
- [80:56]
Timothy
Friends, thanks so much for watching. We love your comments. Put it below if you're listening on podcast. Thanks for listening. Talk to you all later.
- [81:02]
April
Bye.