136. Takeover 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tim & April Show – Episode 136: Takeover 2

Published August 13, 2026 – "Where We Unravel Faith, Politics, and Culture"

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Overview

In this lively takeover episode, Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms, Ciara (CJ), and Brian Wrecker (B. Rucker) sit in as guest hosts, engaging in a candid and incisive discussion around faith, masculinity, Christian nationalism, and the cultural implications of patriarchal theology. The trio explores recent events, pop culture analogies, and theological critiques, focusing on the intersection of gender, power, and Christianity – all through a lens of inclusion, justice, and wit.

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Hosts and Guests

• Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms: Theologian, author, pastor
• Ciara (CJ): Also known as the Gardening Theologian, expert in eco-theology, womanist thought, and queer theology
• Brian Wrecker (B. Rucker): Public theologian and author

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Setting the Scene: Introducing the Takeover Crew

Timestamps: 02:49–05:00

• The episode kicks off with personal catch-ups and light-hearted jokes about fashion and summer activities.
• Early laughs about Andrew Tate’s arrest and his style (“tiny dancer”/“elfin lad”) set a playful yet insightful tone.

Notable Quote:

“You can’t wear this and then be homophobic. You can’t pull from queer fashion and then hate on queer folks.” – CJ (06:07)

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2. Masculinity, Christian Nationalism, and Pop Culture

Timestamps: 05:00–11:38

• The hosts pivot to a critique of conservative images of masculinity, particularly focusing on public figures like Andrew Tate and Pete Hegseth.
• The Amazon Prime show "The Boys" is used as an allegory for white Christian nationalist masculinity, with the Homelander character paralleling real-world authoritarian and Jesus-like complexes.
• Discussion on how pop culture is increasingly prophetic and intersects with political reality.

Notable Quote:

“These people are the manifestation of our collective social consciousness. They are the incarnation of all the shadows you wouldn’t face.” – Dr. Tamise (10:24)

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3. Deep Dive: Doug Wilson, Household Voting, and White Patriarchy

Timestamps: 12:27–18:54

• The notorious pastor Doug Wilson is critiqued after a clip where he argues for household voting (subtly supporting male-only suffrage) and the repeal of the 19th Amendment (women’s right to vote).
• Hosts expose the coded language of Christian nationalism (“household voting” = male supremacy) and analyze its roots in white supremacy.

Memorable Exchange:

“Who gives an F what you want? The belief that what you think... This is why when I talked about, like, all of these pastors that come out, it’s like they operate under this assumption that they are born with authority. I wonder where that comes from? It comes from being a white man in this country.” – Dr. Tamise (14:19)

“Who defines God is not about truth, it’s about power.” – CJ (43:13)

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4. Complementarianism vs. Equality

Timestamps: 18:54–24:57

• Brian unpacks complementarianism, critiquing the notion that men and women are “equal but different” when roles are ultimately disempowering to women.
• They argue this theology is a cover for patriarchy, granting all authority to men.

Notable Quote:

“That is not... equal in value. There’s nothing equal about that. That’s actually a lie.” – Brian Wrecker (17:52)

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5. Intersectionality: Power, Identity, and the Underbelly of Theological Hierarchy

Timestamps: 24:52–29:48

• CJ and Dr. Tamise explore how white patriarchal theology requires “an underside”—those it marginalizes (women, queer people, people of color, non-Christians).
• The conversation addresses how supremacy narratives hollow out those who hold them, leading to a lack of humanity and emotional depth.

Notable Quotes:

“There is someone on the underside of these theology. Someone is always being stepped on by the feet of power.” – CJ (26:28)

“Nothing hollows out a soul like supremacy.” – Brian (29:18)

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6. The Homoeroticism of Alpha-Male Theology and the Obsession with Hypermasculine Jesus

Timestamps: 29:48–33:07

• Hosts note the overt and covert ways in which Evangelical subculture is fascinated with male bodies, violence (via UFC), and dominance.
• Discussion of Australian pastor Martin Cedra, who asserts “Jesus was not effeminate...He had six packs,” critiqued for projecting a hypermasculine, violent Jesus.

Notable/Amusing Quote:

“Jesus had a six pack... Shirtless. Nobody looked better than Jesus shirtless.” – Brian, parodying Martin Cedra (33:07)

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7. Weaponizing Theology: Jesus as White Supremacist Hero

Timestamps: 33:29–42:33

• The trend of constructing a dominator-Jesus is explored, from Mark Driscoll's “prizefighter Jesus” to today’s culture warriors.
• The hosts challenge the legitimacy of these projections, connecting them to historical patterns of empire, violence, and white male power.

Key Analysis:

“You have to strip humanity from so many people. It also dehumanizes you.” – Brian (28:06-29:18) “Not even Jesus is in control of his brand.” – Dr. Tamise (41:33)

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8. Testosterone, Eugenics, and the Military’s “Manhood” Experiment

Timestamps: 43:13–51:03

• Introduction to Pete Hegseth and the emerging practice of testosterone testing in the military, critiqued as modern eugenics.
• The hosts analyze how these policies serve patriarchal, militaristic objectives, while exposing the double-standard regarding “gender-affirming care.”
• Discussion links testosterone narratives to sexual violence tropes and colonial/imperial histories (e.g., the Rape of Nanking).

Notable Quote:

“White supremacy is not even loyal to white people. You’re killing white people’s children and sons and daughters.” – Dr. Tamise (49:08)

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9. Gender Policing, Queerness, and Healing from Patriarchy

Timestamps: 51:03–56:24

• The conversation turns to how hormones and gender will be policed through military policies, harming women and queer people.
• Brian and CJ share personal stories about masculinity and loving, healthy models drawn from queer relationships.
• Dr. Tamise discusses the importance of integrating both masculine and feminine energy for healing and liberation.

Notable Quotes:

“Queerness has so much to teach us. I actually think about healthy displays of masculinity. ...They're very gentle men... That doesn't challenge their masculinity.” – CJ (52:41–53:42)

“My energies talk to each other... I’m not threatened by masculinity and I’m not... hateful towards femininity. But so many of us have been taught to hate what is feminine.” – Dr. Tamise (53:48–54:26)

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Key Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• CJ on Andrew Tate’s Fashion and Hypocrisy (06:07)
• Dr. Tamise: “They are the incarnation of all the shadows you wouldn’t face.” (10:24)
• Doug Wilson on Household Voting: “Because it’s a good idea.” (13:35)
• Dr. Tamise: “Who gives an F what you want?... That audacity is called white supremacy.” (14:19)
• Brian: “Nothing hollows out a soul like supremacy.” (29:18)
• Martin Cedra: “Jesus was not a soft guy. He had six packs. ...He literally destroyed people.” (33:07)
• Brian: “Not even Jesus is in control of his brand.” (41:33)
• Dr. Tamise: “White supremacy is not even loyal to white people.” (49:08)
• CJ: “Queerness has so much to teach us... healthy displays of masculinity.” (52:41)
• Dr. Tamise: “My energies talk to each other... I’m not threatened by masculinity...” (53:48)

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Major Takeaways

• Christian Nationalism and Patriarchy: The episode incisively deconstructs how white Christian nationalist theology underpins both church and state power, using gender, race, and carefully coded language to preserve male supremacy.
• Masculinity & Jesus: Guests critique the modern evangelical glorification of hypermasculine, violent images of Jesus, contrasting them with the radically inclusive, empathetic Christ of the Gospels.
• Dangers of Gender Essentialism: Testosterone testing, household voting, and similar policies are exposed as threats to both women and queer people, while reinforcing outdated, harmful ideas of biology and gender.
• Pathways to Healing: The episode ends on a note of hope, highlighting queerness, self-integration, and embracing the divine feminine (and masculine) as routes to healing and more just models of faith and partnership.
• Power & Theology: Who gets to define God is more about power than truth—a recurring thread throughout the episode.

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Closing

The guest hosts promise another “Takeover” episode, closing with warmth and a call to equity-based, non-hierarchical partnerships, both in faith and daily life.

“We are not Tim. We’re not April. We are Brian, Tamise and Ciara. And we look forward to seeing you all next time.” – CJ (56:24)

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[END OF SUMMARY]

Transcript

[Narrator]

You're listening to a new Evangelicals production.

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[Ciara (CJ)]

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[Brian Wrecker]

Go easy.

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[Ciara (CJ)]

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[Ciara (CJ)]

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The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Take over of the Tim and April show. I'm Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms and I'm here with my homies. Who is with me today?

[Ciara (CJ)]

Yo, what up? My name is Ciara. I also go by CJ and I'm so excited. We are not Tim or April, so just a bit. Dr. Helms didn't even say enough about themselves. Okay. You know what I'm saying? Tamise is an author, a writer, one of the most prolific thinkers in theology. My pastor, my reverend, you know what I'm saying? My name is Tiara. I go by the Gardening Theologian. I do a lot around eco theology, Womanist thought, Queer Thought. You can find all my work online and I'll pass it to my boy B. Rucker as well.

[Brian Wrecker]

Hey, what's up, guys? I'm Brian Wrecker. I'm a public theologian and author. And yeah, honestly, just. I had the privilege of calling both Tamise and Ciara friends. And so it's really cool that we get to be here together as a group of friends. Ready to just kick it.

[Ciara (CJ)]

Kicking it, period. Kick it with some knowledge.

[B. Rucker]

Kicking it.

[Brian Wrecker]

How's everybody doing?

[Ciara (CJ)]

Kicking up the knowledge.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Good. I went to the lake. I look sun kissed. I know y' all can see. I had a great time. I've had a great week.

[Ciara (CJ)]

I'm seeing it.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

What y' all do.

[Ciara (CJ)]

Love it. I love it. I hosted. I hosted a wedding at my house this weekend with some friends. So that was really cool. And that was cool. I've never hosted a wedding before and would not do it again. It actually is a lot of work. Wouldn't do it twice.

[Brian Wrecker]

Ken, do not recommend

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

what you do.

[B. Rucker]

B. Re.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

I saw you in Scarlett.

[Brian Wrecker]

Yeah, we were at the lake as well. Different lake.

[B. Rucker]

Yeah.

[Brian Wrecker]

So we were in Lake Michigan. I'm in Detroit right now at my girlfriend Scarlett's house. We actually went to. She grew up at Lake Michigan. Western Michigan, near Waco beach is where we spent a day actually the first place where I told her I loved her three years ago. And so we were reminiscing a little bit, so that was cute. Yeah. Soaking up. Soaking up some sun. And we actually. Well, we made a reel about this. It's kind of stupid, but, you know, there's no service at Waco beach, so we were off our phones the Whole time, which is great. And then when we left the beach, we got a bunch of notifications that Andrew Tate got arrested. So we had a whole little celebration dancing on his grave.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Was that before. After you saw the capris?

[Brian Wrecker]

Yes. So we had a nice little laugh. You know, we were planning on talking about masculinity today. And it's funny because I regularly. Right. So I regularly post about, like, you know, masculinity and also, obviously, progressive ideals and stuff. And as a white guy, as a guy, really talking about progressive stuff, one of the main things I get from conservatives is I get called a soy boy. I get called effeminate. I get called gay, which is not an insult. But I am straight. But they're doing that as a way of insulting me. And I just find it so funny that this poster child for supposedly alpha bro masculinity looks like a tiny dancer. Like, he's giving.

[Ciara (CJ)]

He's giving little elfin ladies. And I will say many men fall into wearing little elf costumes. I don't know why that happens in men's fashion, but the capris are really. They're killing me here.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

This isn't.

[Brian Wrecker]

You know, I don't even know what

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

to think about this.

[Brian Wrecker]

Is he pulling it off like a slap bracelet?

[Ciara (CJ)]

Yeah.

[Brian Wrecker]

Do we feel like he's pulling off the capris?

[Ciara (CJ)]

The thing is, with Andrew Tate, like, body tee, the man is in great shape. You know what I'm saying? So I'm not gonna sit here and say he can't pull off a tight shirt. But the thing is, you can't wear this and then be homophobic. You can't. Wait, pull from queer fashion, you know what I'm saying? And look like, like you said, a tiny dancer, a little elfin lad, and then come out here and hate on queer folks. You know what I'm saying? You know, and then be like this.

[Brian Wrecker]

I feel like this is, like, 10 years ago gay male fashion, though. Like, he's not even keeping up. I feel like this is outdated gay fashion. Almost like if he was a dyke lesbian, he'd be dressing better than this. Like, I know. I get all my fashion tips from cj, Homegirl.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Be dressed, and you should and do.

[Ciara (CJ)]

And really, how are you gonna be

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

homophobic with your ankles out like that?

[Ciara (CJ)]

Look at them ankles.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

How are you gonna be a homophobe with graceful ankles,

[Ciara (CJ)]

looking so dainty, looking so sweet, you know what I'm saying?

[Brian Wrecker]

I'm just worried. I'm worried prison is not gonna be kind to him

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

or maybe a little too kind of maybe a little too tight.

[Brian Wrecker]

Yeah, maybe he'll get a lot from the experience.

[Ciara (CJ)]

It's just something. You know, what's so crazy is I saw a video of Andrew Tate talking about misogyny, and the host said, spell misogyny, and he spelled it wrong. And I think about that all the time. Like, how can you be this person that is propagating all this patriarchal, terrible masculinity? Can't even spell misogyny. Then you dancing like this, and you are dressing like this. And I do want to say, you're right, Brian. It was a little. It's an outdated queer fashion. He's giving, like, mask lesbian 15 years ago. You know what I'm saying? He's given. It's not present, all right? It's not how K1 is dressing. You know, I'm saying he's not keeping

[Brian Wrecker]

up his tabs for somebody who's so chronically online. I just. I just feel like he should be keeping better tabs on the, you know, the fashion industry. So I've got beef with this man. That's actually the lowest level of my beefs with Andrew Tate. It is staggering, though. It's interesting how he has received various platforms from conservative outlets that claim to be pro family values, that claim to be pro children, that claim to want to see women protected and safeguarded. But something that we just always see in this world is that they don't actually want to protect women and children. They just want to make sure that women and children are preyed upon by the right people. And I think we see that, I mean, across the board in conservative spaces when it comes to misogyny. And so, yeah, we're going to talk a little bit about, I think, masculinity and kind of the intersection of that with Christianity today. What, do you think we should kick it off with CJ we got a lot of directions.

[Ciara (CJ)]

No, I have so many thoughts, and, like, I have been wanting. Pete Hegseth has been in my sights for, like, two years. I do not like P. Hegseth, and I think he is, like, the pinnacle of, like, like, white Christian nationalist, an idyllic form of white Christian nationalist masculinity.

[Brian Wrecker]

Like, almost like we made him up to, like, illustrate the point of, like, hey, this could bring us in a bad direction. You might end up with somebody like, oh, my God, this guy right there. Literally embodying all of it.

[Ciara (CJ)]

Yes, well, I've been talking a lot about Pete Hexton and. And the boy. Do you both watch the boys? Do you watch the show the boys.

[Brian Wrecker]

I. I do you tell me about it, though.

[Ciara (CJ)]

Okay, so you gotta watch it, BB Watching it. And, like, what I love about it is there's a character, Homelander, who is, like, a white supremacist superhero. He's very Christian. He talks a lot about. He kind of sees himself as jes. Similar, actually. The show had him depict him have a vision that he is God. And they actually wrote that, I think before Trump did the AI Jesus thing, which is really interesting. So, like, there are ways that they have been so on the nose about kind of understanding, like, the intersection of politics and white Christian nationalist masculinity. So Homelander, like, sees himself as.

[Brian Wrecker]

I actually read that the showrunners said that they had a really difficult time writing this last season because every time they would have an idea for Homelander, they. They'd be like, oh, my God, this is so good. And then it would, like, happen in real life, and they'd be like, well, we can't do it now because, like, Trump literally already did the evil thing that we were going to have our villain do. And so they had to, like, make it even more over the top because reality was competing with their fiction.

[Ciara (CJ)]

Exactly. That's how. No, they are prophetic, y'.

[Doug Wilson]

All.

[Ciara (CJ)]

They're prophetic. I don't know your thoughts on that, T, but it's just been interesting.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

I mean, you know, I got thoughts. You know, I got thoughts. I mean, these people are the manifestation of our collective social consciousness. They are the incarnation of all the shadows you wouldn't face. I mean, that's what they are. That's why, in your wildest imagination of, like, what's the worst thing a person could possibly do? Someone's doing it because they're free to do it. And, like, they are using their imagination and creating the reality that they're living in right now. And I think it's like, it's so. What's so frustrating to me, and I love, like, I really don't spend a whole lot of time talking about them because they don't deserve my energy. But I will say it's really interesting to think about how these people are trying to make that reality my reality, and I refuse to let them. That's the one I have that holdout, you know what I'm saying? Like, you don't get to define reality for me. I refuse to let you do this. You will not have my reality. And, like, it makes it so funny to watch. They look so. I mean, it is absurd. The thing that just came out about pumping people full of testosterone. I mean, it's like, y', all, this is. It's wild.

[Ciara (CJ)]

Yes. No, it's wild.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Yeah.

[Ciara (CJ)]

I love what you said, T. And maybe we can bring it back to the end, because I'm reading right now black and Buddhist, and they talk. They introduced Eightfold Path, which is kind of the pathway that you follow in Buddhism. It has different areas. Right view, right concentration, right intention. We can't get into all of it. But part of right concentration is what we settle our mind on. And they say as black folks within Buddhism, there's an importance to set your intentions outside of white supremacy, see your identity outside of it. So I just want to say I love that, and I'd love for us maybe to open up with, you know, we're making the claim here that P. Hegseth ultimately is a his masculinity is situated in Christian nationalism. So maybe as this conversation, we can open up with his pastor and some of his recent remarks about women to lay the foundation of why my testosterone testing be connected to masculine Jesus. You know what I mean? Let's talk about that.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Come on here. CJ

[Brian Wrecker]

this joker. So just for context before this clip, this is an interview with Doug Wilson, who is he runs an organization in Moscow, Idaho, that Pete Hegseth attends a church that was planted by Doug Wilson and kind of looks up to him as his spiritual leader. They had Doug Wilson pray at a national prayer breakfast earlier this year. So he's come to national prominence. But he has been a figure within evangelicalism for decades. Actually, John Piper had him speak at a Desiring God conference like 15 or so years ago, which he came under a little bit of heat for that then, because even then, Doug Wilson was a controversial figure because he had been an apologist for the Confederate south. And that was not seen as disqualifying for his participation in mainstream evangelical spaces. And because he didn't go away, now he is, unfortunately, bigger than ever. And so, yeah, we can go ahead and roll this clip of the kind of stuff he's saying out loud.

[Narrator]

You've called for repealing women's right to vote, which is protected by the 19th amendment.

[Doug Wilson]

Right.

[Facebook Ad Voice]

Why?

[Doug Wilson]

Because it's a good idea.

[Narrator]

A lot of women wouldn't.

[Doug Wilson]

Yeah, a lot of women wouldn't agree. Right. But this is the this is one of my favorite questions now, too. This is not an XX XY chromosome issue. What I Because I don't want women voting as individuals. Because I don't want men voting as individuals. So what I want to What I envision is a system that we are. We have practiced in our church here for four decades, and that is household voting.

[Ciara (CJ)]

I think this is.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Hold on, please.

[Ciara (CJ)]

Please take a step first.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

The first thing I want to point out is who gives an F what you want? Who says that your wants determine an entire country's forward movement? That audacity is called white supremacy and foolishness, but mostly white supremacy. Who cares what you want? The belief that what you think. This is why when I talked about, like, all of these pastors that come out, it's like they. They operate under this assumption that they are born with authority. I wonder where that comes from. It comes from being a white man in this country. If you tried that mess somewhere else, people would just walk past you, bro. You'd be a random peddler. But because this country props up white men who have had no receipts, who've had to prove nothing, and puts them in positions of authority where their desires get to become policy. Now, that's wild to me. That's all I have to say. I don't care what you want. Who are you?

[Ciara (CJ)]

No, I'm right there with you. And I think there's also, yes, the hubris to believe that you are the person who should identify and frame how we should all live is already wild. And I think what's also important is a lot of times fundamentalist Christianity or Christian nationalism, which has a lot of overlap, can speak. I feel like sometimes in code around things. He doesn't wanna overtly say women can't vote. He wants to kind of highlight household voting. But within Christian nationalist perspective, men are head of household. So the question becomes, who do they want to direct that vote? Who does that vote become centered around? We think about household voting. When black folks were enslaved, we were 3/5 of a person. So what is like household voting has a lot of implications that he's hiding behind that language too. So I don't know. I just wanted to highlight that as well.

[Martin Cedra]

All the language.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Totally.

[Brian Wrecker]

It's interesting. He immediately was like, no, no, this isn't actually about XY versus Xs chromosomes. In other words, this isn't about diminishing women. I don't want men voting as individuals either. It's a household vote. But then it's like, okay, let's go one step further. What does that mean? Well, it means that the man votes for the household. Can a woman be ahead of a household? No, she cannot. So functionally. So he's saying, this isn't a sexist thing, Right? This is the exact argument of complementarianism.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Exactly.

[Brian Wrecker]

And this sounds way worse. Most complementarians would not go as far as to say women shouldn't have the right to vote. I was, when I was a pastor, I was in a church that was complementarian. In other words, we only had male pastors, we did not have female pastors. I believe most of your evangelical backgrounds were probably similar to that. But I didn't know people that were saying women shouldn't have the right to vote. I never would have said that. None of the other pastors would have said that. But what we did say was that men and women are equal in value, but they have different roles. That was, that was the line. But okay, that sounds okay, right? Oh, I mean, that's like our way of massaging it and making it sound better. But then if you just go one step forward. Okay, let's talk about those roles. Oh, coincidentally, the roles give all decision making power to men, all authority to men, all control to men. All the, the, the means to define reality for everybody else, including non men to men. And women are not given any of that. And so the roles give all the power to men. So that is not, you could say till you're blue in the face, men and women are equal in value, but different roles. But if, if those different roles gives all the power and the ability to define reality for women to men, I'm sorry, that's not equal in value. There's nothing equal about that. That's actually a lie.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

That's right. That's right. It's funny because I. Now what's coming to mind is the, this need of white supremacy to keep people in place. Because if people stay in their place, it never has to answer for itself. It never has to acknowledge that it's a joke and that it's just completely untrue. It's a fallacy and a lie. So look at the degrees that they go to to keep everybody in their place. Because if people get out of place, we will start seeing behind this thing that the wizard of Oz is not that big. The emperor has no clothes.

[Ciara (CJ)]

These people.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

I'm thinking about you, cj.

[Ciara (CJ)]

I'm like.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

He's like, I don't really know. I think it's a good idea. Don't nobody care what you think, number one. Number two, CJ is more credentialed than you. Cianna Jones has more credentials than you. The audacity, power of this man in this country who is dumber than all three of us put together.

[Ciara (CJ)]

I'm about to Say you got more credentials.

[Brian Wrecker]

Dr. T. He starts college. Pretty sure. I'm pretty sure he has a whole school that he started, and he doesn't even have a doctorate.

[Ciara (CJ)]

It's probably. Probably Signs and Wonders University. These guys love Signs and Wonders. Special Magic Town University. Yeah.

[Melinda Hale]

Hey, everyone, this is Melinda Hale, the executive director of the New Evangelicals Listen. Every day we hear from people who feel isolated, disillusioned, and hurt by a version of Christianity that has been hijacked by politics and nationalism. And yet they still long for a faith that is rooted in love, justice, and compassion. And that's why the New Evangelicals exist, because we believe there is a better path forward. We're creating resources, hosting conversations, and we're building communities for people who want to reclaim Christianity and stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus. But building a movement like this takes time, it takes energy, and it takes financial support. So if this podcast or our YouTube, our educational offerings or community space or any. Anything that we've created has impacted you, would you consider becoming a donor? Even a gift of $5 makes a huge difference for small organizations like this. Your support helps us to continue empowering people to put their faith into action by rejecting Christian nationalism and to live in a way that shows people how to truly love our neighbors. Together, I know that we could build something beautiful. So visit thenewevangelicals.com support to give today. You can find the link right in our show notes. Thank you for standing with us.

[B. Rucker]

My name is Jiaja. I'm from Waco, Texas, and I've been a listener of the TNE podcast for about a year now and have really appreciated the nuanced breakdown of current events, theology, and politics that Tim and the TNE team provides. I am a donor and supporter of tne, not only because I hope to see Yalls work expanded and the information further shared, but also because I am a listener who is probably like many of the listeners, a person who has oftentimes become disillusioned by the Christian Church in America and evangelicalism. And I have found a lot of encouragement and empathy from the work that TNE does, and I'm excited to be able to continue supporting.

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[Brian Wrecker]

I want to play the rest of the clip. I actually think the whole clip is really interesting. Can we keep going?

[Ciara (CJ)]

I have some more thoughts, but yeah, play that up. Thank you Tim.

[Doug Wilson]

In our polity, in our church system, about 7% of the votes are cast by women because we have a number of women who are heads of their households.

[Narrator]

So, for example, I'm a woman who's not married, who doesn't have children, and who is Muslim. So in a future Christian theocracy where the 19th Amendment is repealed, what is my role in public life? Do I get to vote? Do I get to run for office? Do I get to do these things?

[Doug Wilson]

Holding in this hypothetical. Hypothetical. No, you wouldn't hold office because you couldn't vow to uphold the Christian constitution. And whether you voted or not would have nothing to do with whether you were a woman or not. Whether you voted would be if I'm

[Narrator]

the head of my household.

[Doug Wilson]

If you're the head of the household. If you were head of the household and Christian, you would vote.

[Narrator]

And if I'm head of the household and not Christian, then that would depend

[Doug Wilson]

probably on the state.

[Brian Wrecker]

Right?

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Oh, look at their faces. All of their faces have no life in them. Like, if you. If you pay attention to the news, these people, their faces are taught, there's no life. Y' all have. You have abdicated your humanity. And it shows.

[Ciara (CJ)]

It makes me think about. And then I want to throw back to both of you because I want to know your thoughts on this. But when I was watching this and Dr. T, you kind of referenced this a bit. You know what I think fundamentalist and Christian nationalist theology tries to hide a lot is someone is on the underside of this power. And we'll play the Pete Hexeth clip in a minute. But one reason I really want to show Doug Wilson first is a lot of this is based in what I feel like Reverend Dr. Kelly Brown Douglas calls natural law, theo ideology, that there is a right order of the world and it has white CIS men on top. And also, one of my favorite public thinkers is Tressa McMillum Cox. Dr. Cotton says in her book thick, you know, for. For whiteness to be valorized, it needs a pole. That pole is blackness. It needs a poll of what it can never be. And for white Christian men to be valorized, they also need a poll of what they can never be, which is they will never be women. Right. And I think that there is this. They will never be queer. They will never be gay. Of course, we know there are many white CIS men who are queer or gay. But there is a way that they are trying to say, like, we are an archetype above. We are the top of the social Darwinism kind of laced theology. And I think it's important to note that no matter what Doug Wilson says, there is someone on the Underside of this masculine voting and household voting. And it's going to be women, it's going to be queer people, it's going to be non straight families, non Christians. They are all going to be harmed through this. And I just wanted to just highlight. Yeah, someone is always on the underside of these theology. Someone is always being stepped on by. On by the feet of power. And we need to name that too.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Abi, I got a question for you because he's talking about, like, women, right? Like in. Like you talked about telling Scarlet you loved her like three years ago at that beach. But, like, what did you. What did. What was it that you loved about her? And like. Because I keep thinking of like a world child, a world without women. Look at, look, look at America. But like, when you think about what you loved about what you love about Scarlet, like, what is, what are those things and what is stands to be lost with these types of ideologies?

[Brian Wrecker]

That's a really great question because I think what you're getting at, what we see pretty clearly when we listen to people like that is these men hate women. Like, they do not like women at all. They don't see them as people. They certainly can't see them as equal partners. They don't see their humanity. And so, yeah, very simply, what I loved about her was who she is as a person, that she makes me laugh. She's smart, she's funny, she's an incredible partner. She's caring, she's kind, she's brilliant. Um, I want to have a long conversation with her more than I want to talk to anybody else. In fact, you know, I want to keep talking to her for the rest of my life. We're best friends. And a lot of men, I do think if they were to interrogate, you know, men that are supposedly straight, right? Men like Andrew Tate, who. Andrew Tate has sex with women, but he does not like women.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

This.

[Brian Wrecker]

He said this publicly. He'll even say, like, it's gay to like women. That if you say you. Like, if you say that women are your friends, like, that's, that's gay. Another. It's this very odd thing where to, like, the person that you're attracted to is somehow seen as effeminate because the patriarchy has really. It has to. You have to dehumanize everybody in order to maintain supremacy for people like you. And you'll do that to women. Doug Wilson in this clip is also doing it to non Christians. You saw at the end, the reason I wanted to play the end of that clip was he really highlights how in his worldview, it's not just men who have authority, but only specifically Christian men. And so really this. The humanity is stripped from every. That's right now our country. Actually, I'd be curious what these numbers are. Maybe one of us should look it up. I want to say that only around 30 something percent would be the kind of Christians that Doug Wilson would. Would validate. But then it's like, who gets to even say, like, would I call myself a Christian? Probably Doug Wilson's would say, I'm not a Christian, so I don't get a vote. Like, who is validating that for people? And it's true. You have to strip humanity from so many people. And I mean, this is a problem for all kinds of reasons, but it also dehumanizes you. Like you said, like, his eyes are lifeless. Like he lacks humanity himself. Because nothing hollows out a soul like supremacy.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

That's right. That's right. Because it's not true. You're living a lie. And the universe is in support of truth. So that's why it takes so much violence and it takes so much lying and sinister and hiding to uphold it. Anything that is true doesn't take all of that.

[Ciara (CJ)]

Sorry. I was going to say, like, what I think is interesting, and then I actually want to throw a question back at you is like, alpha male theology also means. Because that's really what it is. It's alpha male theology. And only one or two people get to be at the top of that theology. Something I say is, like, when white men do this, they're putting themselves in competition with themselves. It's. It's getting all white men invested into a cycle of power that only benefits a few of them, but keeps them invested because they think it could be them. It's like, it's like you're dating someone and they got like, 10 other women, and it could be you. You know what I mean? But there's only a 10 chance or it's gonna be you. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like.

[Brian Wrecker]

It's like, Andrew Tate's not gonna love you back, boys. Like, what are you doing?

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Like, there's not long ago is not loyal.

[Ciara (CJ)]

And it's actually very homoerotic. Like, alpha male theology only centers men. That's what I was gonna ask you all about. It's like, the homoeroticism of this theology is actually very. It's very gay.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

It's pretty gay. They love the ufc. So it's either like, it's either all the rage of men punching each other, or it's the shirtless men. I mean, why do white Christian men love UFC so much? You know, like, what are y' all getting from this? Either it's the rage part, which is scary, or the shirtless men wrestling. That's the thing.

[Brian Wrecker]

But I think it's an app. It's one of the approved outlets for humanity and emotion like that. That. That is the one that we've allowed men to experience.

[B. Rucker]

Right.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

I love a UFC fight.

[Carvana Ad Voice]

They do.

[Brian Wrecker]

And they project this on their spirituality. So actually, could we play that? Could we play the Jesus clip?

[Ciara (CJ)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Because of the. Because of the fact that, like, it's not just they hate women, they hate the feminine, right?

[Facebook Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Because they think the feminine is weak.

[Brian Wrecker]

And what that ultimately means is that they really have a very distorted view of Jesus as well. Like, that they bring into their Christianity. The Jesus who sits on top of white supremacist Christianity looks nothing like the actual historical Jesus. It is a totally made up guy.

[Ciara (CJ)]

Well, that's why I thought it was so interesting right before we played the clip at the UFC fight where the guy was, like, being transphobic to Michelle Obama, and he said, there's only one person more incredible than the Incredible Hulk, Jesus. What's going on there with that? Even with those like that, that line of thought, seeing Jesus as this type of, like, superhero that stops on and harms people. Like, I don't understand.

[Brian Wrecker]

Listen to this. This pastor, this is Martin Cedra. He's a pastor in Australia who's getting a lot of playtime in the States because he has really. Even though he's in Australia, he's fully embracing a white nationalist kind of Christianity and very much playing into American politics. But he literally gets thirsty over Jesus in this clip.

[Martin Cedra]

America has created this gay, effeminate Christianity. They view God through a Western lens. They think Jesus was a weak figure who was a tolerant guy. We view Jesus carrying a nice little lamb. Every picture you see him, his hair is flowing, carrying a nice lamb. That's not the Jesus I see. The Jesus I see was a bold and courageous man who people wanted to kill him for what he said. So America created this gay version of Jesus Christ. Jesus was not effeminate. Jesus was a bold line. I always tell people. Jesus was not a soft guy. He had six packs. He was the most ripped guy you ever meet. He was a very bold and courageous man. He flipped tables in the temple. He got a whip out. He was. He literally destroyed people.

[Brian Wrecker]

Jesus had a six pack. He had abs, rippling abs. His muscles, his obliques were incredible. Shirtless. Nobody looked better than Jesus shirtless.

[Ciara (CJ)]

I'm telling you, it reminds me, there's this clip of the boys in hell

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

closet without telling me.

[Brian Wrecker]

Oh, you. I love how CJ's immediately like, I. I love how you always think of boys clips.

[Ciara (CJ)]

I'm telling you, I love when the show is prophetic and the boys is prophetic. Because there's a clip where Homelander. We're like. Where they're talking about Homelander who sees himself as Jesus. A woman's introducing him, and she's like, homelander's just like us. He grabs a mic, he's like, I'm way better than all of you. Like, I am better. I am faster. I'm stronger. And like, that's. A lot of these men see themselves made in the image of this white, male, patriarchal, violent Jesus, and they feel like that gives them their power. I think maybe I'm tripping.

[Brian Wrecker]

Listen, I don't want to. I don't like to disparage people, especially for their physical attributes, but because this guy is so disgusting, it's impossible for me to not just psychoanalyze him a little bit. But one thing I do notice about Martin, and I can say this because I have a slight lisp myself, but Martin has a pretty pronounced lisp. You can hear it in this clip. He actually, many people would probably. I bet he probably got picked on for his lisp growing up. There's a very good chance that he was called effeminate, that he was called gay growing up because of the way that he speaks. And it does seem like his entire personality and his entire spirituality is trying to cover up that shame of even the effeminate parts within himself, that he's had to create a Jesus that can save him from effeminacy, as if that's the Great Satan, as opposed to a healthy outlet of humanity.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Yeah, it's like a weaponization of the wound rather than healing the wound. Like you. You've. You've created a Jesus that takes all of your wounding and makes it a weapon. So, like, that's not actually, you know, when I see Jesus again, this is what I'm saying. Like, everybody sees Jesus a million different ways, and then they act on that, and that creates culture.

[Ciara (CJ)]

Right.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

The problem is the ways that white supremacists, patriarchal men, misogynistic men, have seen Jesus, have filled the airwaves, have filled the coffers, have been embedded in the institutions, and so we have all been living in a reality. As if what they have said about reality and what they have said about God and what they have said about Jesus is a fact or true. The only reason it feels true in, like, a fact is because they own the military and the money and the Congress. They have power to enforce their position. It's not because it's actually true. It's just hard to disagree with because of the cost of disagreeing with it. And that's what I think is being exposed right now. Because when you see this man laugh, my initial response is like, if I saw you, if you tried to sell me Girl Scout cookies, sir, with your face looking like that, no, thank you. There's no life in you, you know?

[Ciara (CJ)]

Well, I think there's so many men who. Don't you feel like there's so many men who. Their only power is the pulpit. The only power is that, Mike. Like, if they really believed in the power of what they were saying, they wouldn't have to couch it behind theology. You wouldn't need a powerful amorphous being to be the thing that allows you to circumvent accountability for this theology. You would just stand on ten toes and say, like, I think men are better. Like, I think that the fact that they always have to counter within religious language, to me, tells me you don't even really believe that claim, but you're hoping with that claim someone will give you the mic and the pulpit and the power to spread these ideologies. Like, I feel like if you really stand those down on your supremacy, do it without God, do it without religion. You know what I'm saying? Like, stand 10 toes down on that cliff

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

because it's what God means to people.

[Brian Wrecker]

Masculine strength, dominant masculine, patriarchal power. That's the. That's the story of history. That's human history. You don't need. You don't need to make Jesus that. Caesar was already doing that. You know what I mean? Like, that's literally. Nebuchadnezzar was already doing that. Pharaoh was already doing that. Jesus is doing something different. Why do they need Jesus to do exactly what we have always had? Strong men. Strong men. They come and go. Every empire is the same pattern throughout history. This was Daniel's vision. One beast after another. They just come and they dominate human life. And they say, I'm the biggest, I'm the strongest, I'm the toughest, I've got the most rippling abs. I'm on the top of the food chain. I'm alpha. And then, you know what they do. They die. And then another one takes its place. And Jesus was supposed to be something different. Why do they want Jesus to be exactly like what every other strong man is? We've already seen that pattern play out. I have had. I've had enough of trumps and headsets. I don't need Jesus to be the rippling abs guy.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

That's the thing.

[Brian Wrecker]

I want to taste something different.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

That's right. It's like, you know that to me now. Like, y' all know, like that passage in Matthew 7 where he's like, not everyone who says to me, master, Master, or Lord, Lord. Which, depending on which translation, will enter the kingdom. I'm gonna say, I didn't know you, because name dropping is not intimacy. Intimacy has a tone.

[Ciara (CJ)]

You made that up.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

You should tell if somebody's been with Jesus. You can tell when somebody's been around Jesus by their ass, right?

[Brian Wrecker]

Is that by their abs you shall know them?

[Ciara (CJ)]

Is that what it was?

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

That was so beautifully done. Oh, so well played.

[Facebook Ad Voice]

Me

[Ciara (CJ)]

true though, right?

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Like, you can tell when somebody has an actual life giving relationship with the divine. It shows, right? That man's face, man, we put that man's face back up. Put all of their faces up there. Pam Bondi, like, look at, look at what's happening to their skin. Look at their bodies. There is no life here.

[Ciara (CJ)]

I think I will not Horcrux, he's. He's out of lives, you know what I'm saying?

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

We really don't talk about Mitch McConnell right now. We know.

[Brian Wrecker]

Yo, how long are they gonna pretend that man is not dead?

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

I have no idea.

[Ciara (CJ)]

I'm telling you, he's siphoning the soul out of his staffers. That's what he's doing. They're doing a nightly science or something.

[Brian Wrecker]

So this, this is not new. This. That clip from Martin Cedra does remind me of something that's been with me for a long time. Early 2000s. I don't know if any of y' all were. Were Mark were like, into Driscoll in the early 2000s.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

I was. That's why I had to say, I don't care what he thinks.

[Ciara (CJ)]

I don't know. I did not know anything about.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

I had all of that stuff. Martin Acts 29.

[Brian Wrecker]

To my great shame, when I first encountered mark Driscoll around 2005 or so, he felt to me at the time like a breath of fresh air. Because I had been in fundamentalism where suit and tie every Sunday, no alcohol, you know, all this buttoned up stuff and Driscoll preached with jeans. He was casual. He would say an occasional cuss word. He drank beer. I was like, oh, this, this is so much more relatable. There was something that felt actually more human about it, interestingly enough, because my Christianity was so in. But at the time, he was also pushing a very militant version of Jesus. And his big quote, which very similar to what Martin was saying at the time, he would talk about UFC prize fighter Jesus and he would talk his favorite Jesus, his favorite image of Jesus was not in the Gospels. It was not in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. The image of Jesus that Driscoll talked about the most was in the book of Revelation. He would talk about how Jesus is coming back again and this time he's not coming back in a manger. There's not no baby Jesus. This Jesus is coming with a tattoo on his thigh and a SW sword in his mouth and he's gonna wipe out evildoers. And that's my Jesus. And at the time, 20, you know, year old Brian was just like, yeah, Jesus, that's our guy. Like, let's go. And it was appealing to some base, you know, desire, honestly, for strength and dominance. That was in me at the time, probably that, you know, appealed to men. But what's so interesting as I reflect on that, that his favorite Jesus wasn't even Jesus. His favorite Jesus, you had to actually get away from who Jesus actually was as a person, as a historical person. His favorite Jesus was a fever dream from the book of Revelation, a vision that was actually apocalyptic and needed to be interpreted. The sword out of Jesus's mouth was not actually a sword that Jesus was going to kill people with. In the symbolism of the vision. This is the word of God, because word is truth and word cuts to the heart. So these are images that he then puts onto his violent reality. It's like, you guys don't even like Jesus. In order to find your Jesus, you actually have to get away from the real Jesus.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

It's really odd to me that, like, not even Jesus is in control of his brand, you know, and, and so it's like when you think of the fact that Jesus lived that life, died that death that we know historically happened, that people shared, that they had seen appearances of him later on. All of those things that we know, they're documented in history. But at the same time, this man is saying, still not in control of his brand. People use Jesus's name to do all kinds of things. And I think what white supremacy promises you is invulnerability but that's not an option. We are contingent. That's why supremacy will never work. And so you create this Jesus that doesn't exist, and you convince people that this Jesus exists using military and missionaries and money. Okay? That's why it feels like universal truth, because y' all put the pedal to the metal on that thing. That's why it feels like universal truth, not because it's actually true. It takes too much to hold it up.

[Ciara (CJ)]

Oh, yeah. Well, one, I want to say I am feeling the power of this mic, y'.

[B. Rucker]

All.

[Ciara (CJ)]

This having a podcast mic is wild. So my claims might get more unhinged as we go, because this mic, it does something masculine to you, you know, but I think divine, actually.

[Brian Wrecker]

It feels angelic. It feels like the word of God to me in this moment. This is the prophet Jeremiah.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

This told us we had to tell people that Jesus was coming back to kill people. And if. If people were offended with that. I don't remember if I told Tim that or something, but, like, if people were offended by that, then they had work to do. Like, if you. If it was hard for you to think of Jesus coming back and murdering people because they didn't follow him, that you were offended with God and you needed to, like, repent. Isn't that wild?

[Ciara (CJ)]

It's wild. No. But you both are eating and it makes you think about. And then maybe we can queue up. P Hexa's clip is. You know, I love mentioning Zora Hurston. She has a famous quote. Gods always behave like the people who make them. And something I say in my work is, who defines God is not about truth, it's about power. We believe in a God, or sometimes we collectively believe in a God made in the image of white masculine power. Not because it is true, but because it's the image that we see most constantly, all around us. But it is. It is white men's projection of who they want God to be so they can circumvent accountability for the injustice they've created. If God is white masculine Jesus, if God is white Jesus crusader, then you don't have have to be accountable for the violence towards indigenous communities or the displacement of black communities, because it's all in the name of God. And I think what's super interesting is we see this administration following the white supremacist handbook to a tee, which is frame God as white supremacist, but also use faulty kind of crappy science to also insulate these claims. So, like, during slavery, we see it through religion and we see it through eugenics. And now we're seeing it again through religion and this weird testosterone testing that Hexith is doing as a way to say not only is God more masculine and not only does God order the world world in a way that is framed towards masculinity, but science says that testosterone is important for insulating who is masculine and who is not. Science also backs our claims around masculinity and power. So maybe we can show the. Can we show the hexa clip actually where he talks about the testosterone testing like eugenics.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Cool, cool.

[Ciara (CJ)]

But basically we're about to show a clip of Jesse Waters talking about the impact of this new policy. But Pete Hegseth and as I'm mentioning, I think this is connected to like eugenics almost this idea of who is is male, who is right. But PXF is instituting testosterone testing for the military so that if men have low T he can increase their T so they can be more masculine. And I want to hear, I want you all to hear the discourse this is already creating particular on particularly on the side of conservative religious communities and how this is leading to a valorization of dangerous poisonous hierarchy. So you can go ahead and play this clip.

[Carvana Ad Voice]

He says you lose your endurance muscle mass. So yeah, I want these guys on it. But you know, know what's going to happen. The guys that don't need it are going to take it to triple boost, right? And then they're going to get out there and women on base, you guys better be careful. Port calls women in Asia, you better be careful because these guys are going to be wild animals and you better watch out.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

You should have.

[Ciara (CJ)]

I need Yalls reactions immediately.

[Brian Wrecker]

Well, I mean there are so many. I have so many thoughts. One, it's very interesting that obviously this is a party that is very much against gender affirming care and testosterone treatment for trans individuals or people for all kinds of reasons that are looking for that treatment are being withheld it. But in order to create super soldiers essentially like hyper masculine soldiers, they're wanting to inject testosterone into these men. Only about 2% of men medically need or could use or be benefited from testosterone enhancement. And so to have this as a sweeping program throughout the military tells me that this isn't about a health need. This is about really creating a hyper dominant man that is the kind of person that they're trying to draw. It is no surprise again when I talk about progressive issues online, I am called a beta soy boy and I'm called low T all the time. People call Me low T. That is just an insult for someone that wants to stand up for people. Right. And so, high tea. This is this picture of dominance. It is just another outlet for supremacy, and it is associated with the right to dominate, even sexually. Like Jesse Waters laughing about the idea of. And again, you know, he doesn't say white, but he does call out Asian. He does call out Asian women. And so this is the. The stereotype of white men who have really, dominance over the bodies of minority women is the picture that he's painting and chuckling about. And that is. I mean, if that clip isn't white supremacy in a nutshell, I don't know what is.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

I mean, have y' all read the Rape of Nanking or, like, any of those books about what happened? And it's just so at the dark end of the street?

[Ciara (CJ)]

I've read that one. Have you read that one?

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

No.

[Narrator]

Okay.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

It's disgusting. Y' all really believe you have the right to do this. But here's the thing that I think that they don't understand, that they're working with is that the feminine. There is a resurgence of the divine feminine, whether they like it or not, and that thing is coming for them. And all of this is quite silly to that. Like, they have nothing on the way that an ocean can knock your yacht over. You got nothing on the way a fire could take your house down. So it's really silly to watch at this point because it's repetitive. I mean, the Rape of Nanking is exactly that. And I watched this clip because I got to watch stuff now since we're doing Tim and April, I got to watch news now. But, like, I feel like that he called them warrior machines. He's gonna pump them full of chemicals or testosterone. He called them warrior machines. And it's so funny, because whiteness is now turning white bodies into what chattel used to be because they used to force feed slaves so that they would work harder for the bottom line of the plantation. In the same way, they're pumping these men so they can go faster, harder, hit harder, and not actually be human. Right. I need to make you unhuman to make sense of the world I'm creating. And now they've turned the logic on their own people. White supremacy is not even loyal to white people.

[Melinda Hale]

Wow.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

You're killing white people's children and sons and daughters.

[Brian Wrecker]

It's also interesting hearing Jesse Waters being very aware of the threat of sexual violence from these white men. Like, he's not. So, again, this is a network that has Been pushing trans panic for a long time. Bathroom panic. That the biggest fear, if you ask a conservative, like, are they more afraid of a white guy or a trans person in terms of, like, sexual violence? They are afraid of, like, trans people in bathrooms. There's no statistical threat of trans people in bathrooms. That has not. That is not a thing. The people are not being assaulted by trans people in bathrooms. People are being assaulted by the exact men that Jesse Waters is talking about. And he is aware of it, he is calling attention to it. And yet when they go on to create panic, they were not. They're not pushing policy to rein in the violence of these white men. They're actually pushing policy to give them more credence to violence while trying to restrain the violence of people that are not even exhibiting violent tendencies.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

It's also going to happen in jail. Yeah.

[Ciara (CJ)]

It's also going to open up. It's going to create a lot of transphobia in the military. Because even if we look at black women in the Olympics in particular, they've been targeted by testosterone testing CIS black women for being seen as having too much testosterone. And so I also think this is going to be a covert way to say it's a. It is a covert way to start delineating gender in the military, period. It's a way to start policing gender, period, to say, who is woman enough, who is man enough? And so I guarantee you that women are also going to be victims of transphobic violence as a result of this type of testing. It's a way to open up a lot of policing around hormones. But also, it also, weirdly enough, shows how the arguments around biological essentialism, around gender are wrong, because the fact that we do have different hormone levels, even within the same gender, would say something about how gender might be more fluid.

[Brian Wrecker]

Totally.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Jesus.

[Doug Wilson]

This is.

[Brian Wrecker]

This is why. I mean, and I know we gotta. We gotta wrap up, but I will just say, like, my relationships with queer people have been so important to me to just be reminded of how expansive it all can be and how there are so many different ways to be human. And that worrying about whether you're high T or low T, it's like, man, like, what feels good is. Is being myself. And I'm not gonna worry about where I fall on this essential category. You know, I actually have a very close trans friend who was assigned female at birth and naturally has high testosterone levels, has never undergone testosterone treatment, and yet has transitioned and now is a male and grows a beard without having ever done any testosterone treatment. So this person was Assigned female at birth grew a beard naturally based on their at birth hormone levels with, you know, what would be called biological female parts, you know, according to how they would talk about it. And yet again, like, humanity is just so much more expansive. And it's like, why do we need to put this person in a box? Are we supposed to then put them on levels to pull their testosterone down from the natural levels that were God ordained for their body? You know, like. Or actually can we live out what makes sense for us and have freedom to do that without having, you know, this. This narrative be pushed on us being people being pushed into binaries that, that our humanity was not created for.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

That's good, man. I don't know what else is to talk about. You think there'll be more shenanigans next time?

[Ciara (CJ)]

I got, I got one question for Dr. T though. I got one question for. Specifically because I do feel like watching this, like something I say all the

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

time in my work.

[Ciara (CJ)]

And I. I feel like to me so appreciate this. And you highlighted this too. Brian is like, queerness has so much to teach us. I actually think about healthy displays of masculinity. I have a lot of queer men in my family and they're very like, they are very. You could say that they're traditionally masculine in certain ways. They're in great shape or they're muscular. But they're also very gentle men. Like, they are men who I can call on my worst days. They are men who I can cry to. They are men who also will cry to me who are open. And that doesn't to me challenge their masculinity. It's given me a healthy example of how to be masculine. And as a masculine center woman who also embraces my femininity too. And it's funny because when me and my partner first got together, like, she's a very beautiful, feminine woman. I'm a more masculine centered woman. And I felt like I want to take care of you in masculine ways. Like I was working extra hours at work and doing all this. And then four months and I'd sat her down, I said, girl, this is ghetto. Let's do a little more. And she was like, yeah, let's do that. And like our relationship has been so beautiful. Also when I realized released some of the things I was carrying around, having to be masculine in a particular way. So I was just wondering, Dr. T, if you feel like you positive? You know,

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

I think so. I mean, we can get into it because I know that we have to go, but yeah, I do think that being in relationship with your. Both your masculine, feminine energy, to me, it's energy. And so like, it's a matter of presentation has nothing to do with the levels of energy. It just has to do with what makes me feel most homeostasis in terms of presentation. But my energies talk to each other. Like my feminine, masculine energy. Energy are in conversation with one another and so I can connect to people. I'm not threatened by masculinity and I'm not. I don't have hate towards femininity. But so many of us have been taught to hate what is feminine. And so that, like, it's not just these manosphere people. Most of us are uncomfortable with, with feeling, with sitting still, with the spaciousness and the, the holding tension and the waiting and the, the mystery of the feminine, we are all really uncomfortable with that. And that's why I said, like, I think the divine feminine, if the divine feminine is in a resurgence right now because the pendulum, the energy pendulum have swung way. We see what it produces when you pay no attention to the feminine, which is not what Jes to do. He said, listen to the women. They're the first to preach the resurrection. He is passing the baton of the messaging of God to the feminine. Right? And we, we didn't listen, and here we are.

[Brian Wrecker]

And I will just say to any men listening, like, I. I think that a lot of times define divine feminine language and even like the feminist theology, like, for instance, my friend Chelsea Kim Long has a new book coming out, Faithfully Dissident Daughters. I have a feeling that mostly women are going to read that book. In general, women tend to be more drawn to those, those theologies. But those theologies are not just for everyone. But I would say that men maybe have the most to gain from investing in those theologies and those views of God and not just gain by, you know, like, it's going to make you better in some way. I think it's going to heal parts of you.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

I have.

[Brian Wrecker]

I do think that a lot of times it is that thing that we've been pushed away from that actually we need to explore in order to find that healing. And so maybe that'll happen to Andrew Tate there with his purple shirt and capri pants, headed to jail. He has some healing to do. I think we all have some healing to do, and y' all are a part of that healing journey for me. So I appreciate that.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

We love you, Bee. And we love Scarlett.

[Brian Wrecker]

She's unloading groceries over here.

[Dr. Tamise Spencer Helms]

Get up and do it, Brian. What are you doing?

[Brian Wrecker]

Right, well, no, I'm just letting her live in her feminine energy.

[Ciara (CJ)]

Well, you heard it here first, folks, okay? Equity based partnerships are the way for it to go. And we'll be here next week at the Tim and April show. Okay? We are not Tim. We're not April. We are Brian, Tamise and Ciara. And we look forward to seeing you all next time.

[Brian Wrecker]

One. One more takeover episode.

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One more.

[Brian Wrecker]

See you next time, guys.

[Ciara (CJ)]

One more. All right, bye. See you later.