← The Tim & April Show
The Tim & April Show
15. The Seven Mountain Mandate EXPOSED: The Belief Behind Christian Nationalism
01:24:42
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Tim
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April
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Tim
Go to rakuten.com or download the Rakuten app. Are your eyes overstimulated?
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Switch to Essilor Eyesen Lenses and find your local essilore expert@essilore.com foreign.
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April
You're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hello, Hello. That music's getting me pumped today.
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Tim
That's a. That's a banger singer. I'm just saying it's. It's a good song. It's well animated. I'm happy with it.
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April
Same. I mean, I think it's great. It makes us look cooler and more professed than maybe we are.
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Tim
Yeah, coming. Coming at you Live from my guest bedroom.
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April
Yeah. Except not live.
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Tim
Right? Pre recorded. Oh, my gosh.
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April
Yeah. I mean, in this moment, we're live, but when people are watching, it will not be.
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Tim
Yeah.
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April
Yay.
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Tim
It's good. It's good to see you. Hi, friends.
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April
Have you had a good week?
- [03:22]
Tim
Oh, a busy week. Yeah. I got this a long time ago. A friend of mine gave it to me as a birthday gift. Random side story. And by the way, friends, welcome into the show. Make sure that you subscribe to the channel and give this video a. Like, that'd be awesome. But here's my. My. My side story. Then we'll get into our main story today, which is the Seven Mountain Mandate. My old group of friends, we were. We were very, very, very close. We had like a community long story, almost a cult, but not really. And we were all really into Marvel and we all gave each other different characters. And my character was the Hulk. I've spray painted myself several times with not with paint that was not approved to be on the human body. I've done it more than once to either, like, dress up as the Hulk for kids camp or to go see the latest Marvel movie. So the Hulk is. Is my character. And so my buddy gave me this mug for my birthday in honor of that.
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April
So, yes, I think every church at some point did a Marvel theme for kids church, because yours truly was definitely Black Widow for one weekend. All the little kids are taking pictures with me. Fun times.
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Tim
Because the red hair. Right. They're like, oh, you had red hair. Black Widow.
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April
Yeah. Typecast every time. I was also Anna.
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Tim
Oh, oh, okay, cool.
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April
Separately, they had a frozen theme as well. Yeah. You know, what else would you use red hair for other than anything else?
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Tim
That's it.
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April
Yeah, totally. So Seven Mountain Mandate, we are going to.
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Tim
Sorry. What a transition. So speaking of horrible things in the world. Yeah.
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April
That was when. So we were Marvel characters, when we were really influencing the religion mountain. I love that mandate.
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Tim
Yeah.
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April
So we're gonna dive a little deeper. Last week we had Matthew Taylor on and we talked about new apostolic reformation in ar and we mentioned Seven Mountain Mandate, because that does kind of stem from that group, but it also goes way beyond in ar, especially today. So we're gonna do a deep dive on the Seven Mountain Mandate. What it is, its history and how it's playing out currently. Because it absolutely is playing out right now before our eyes. And. Yeah, so let's just. Should we just dive right in?
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Tim
Let me give one quick caveat. If you have not either watched or listened to Our previous episodes on the deep dive on Christian nationalism, in particular one with Matthew Taylor, which is last week's pre recorded episode. I really recommend starting there because we're building on it. So we might say certain terms or certain things that we're not going to fully unpack because we already did last week. So I recommend starting there because we go into the independent charismatic movement, the new Apostolic Reformation, and the Seven Mountain Mandate comes out of that world. So start there and then come back to this video because they definitely build and they're definitely important because as we're going to demonstrate, this stuff is everywhere in politics and in media and it's shaping the current Trump regime.
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April
And I also want to point out too that there are people that follow the Seven Mountain Mandate without maybe even realizing that that is what it is, because there are teachings, especially like when I was growing up Christian nationalist, I was basically taught this idea without the title. So even if you haven't heard the title, the chances that that, you know, a white evangelical church in America is probably teaching some degree this theological, whatever you want to call it.
- [06:59]
Tim
Oh, I was going to say, if you ever sang I'm in the Lord's army as a child, congratulations. You're drawing on the idea of conquering and taking over and being in an army to take back something. In this case, America.
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April
Warriors for Christ.
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Tim
Amen.
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April
Yeah. So the Seven Mountain Mandate is basically this belief that God has given all Christians a mandate to influence seven key spheres of society, also known as seven mountains. And that is, as you see on the screen, business, government, family, religion, media, education, and then arts and entertainment. And so this is very much connected with Dominion theology, which is Dominionism is the belief that Christians should govern over political, cultural and societal, societal aspects of life, basing laws and governments on biblical principles. And those biblical principles are a very narrow fundamentalist interpretation of Scripture that, that's very much conservative evangelical biblical principles and nothing else. Because there are there, as we've mentioned multiple times, There are over 45,000 Christian denominations worldwide. So when these people say biblical principles, they're not including all versions of Christianity. Because really, if you read the Bible, there's no one worldview. There are multiple different types of worldviews depending on which lens you are reading the scriptures from. So, and also Dominion Theology is based, if you want to know Scripture, where it comes from, it's based on Genesis 1:28, where it says, and God blessed them. And God said unto them, be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and, and over the foul of the air and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
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Tim
Yes. One important piece I think that we should set up as a big picture thing to keep in mind is that a lot of what these folks do is they either take specific Bible verses or specific biblical characters, mostly from the Hebrew Bible or the Old Testament, and they really butcher the meaning and they kind of twist it to suit their agenda. Even that word dominion is better translated steward. So the idea of, you know, taking care of the Earth, taking care of the planet, but these are the same people who are going to fight hard against any kind of climate change initiatives because, you know, global warming is a hoax. So just keep that in mind. Like, yes, they are pulling from the Bible, but it's a very specific interpretation and very specific verses that they use to justify what really becomes a very violent and very authoritarian type of Christianity that they are now trying to put into place via these seven spheres or seven mountains.
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April
I also want to point out Matthew Taylor's book, the Violent Take it by Force goes into this a lot more detailed. And according to him, more than one fifth of all Americans recognize and endorse the Endorse the Seven Mountain Mandate. So this is no small thing. But regardless of the amount of just American citizens that would support this idea, the scarier thing today is how many people support this idea who have power, Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, being one of them. And we will get more into that in a little bit. But right now I'm just going to get into the history of the Seven Mountain Mandate. So we know where it came from and originated. So the idea of Christians influencing society is not necessarily a new idea, even before the seven mountain mandate became a thing. So 1975 is where the seven mountain mandate began. Lauren. Lauren Cunningham, who is the founder of Youth with a Mission, which is also known as ywam Trigger Alert.
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Tim
Sorry if we triggered you with that.
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April
No, I. I've got beef with ywam. We should do a deep dive on just ywam. I lost one of my best friends to ywam. She didn't die, she just joined the cult. I have quite a few friends who.
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Tim
Also went through YWAM and same thing like just horrible stories for sure. So that's why I said Trigger Warning for those of you who are familiar with ywam, because I know, yikes.
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April
It's also very charismatic. So in 1975, Lauren was vacationing with his wife in Colorado and they went and got dinner with Bill Bright, who is the founder of Campus Crusade for Christ. And as they were, the night before the dinner, Cunningham believed that he received a vision from God on how to disciple the nation. God told him about seven spheres of influence in society in which Christians should go and spread the gospel. Cunningham's seven at that point were home, church, schools, government and politics, the media, arts, entertainment and sports, and then commerce, science and technology, which later would become business. So when he was at this dinner with Bill Bright, he brought out his list when he was telling him about the vision. But Bill also brought out a list because he claimed that God also gave him a similar vision. So they compared lists. There was some slight variation in wording, but overall it was the same list. And so then shortly after that, Cunningham ran into Francis, Francis Schaeffer, who is also a theologian and an evangelical philosopher and heavily involved in the religious right. And he claimed that he also had a similar list, also seven things. And so they all decided, oh, this is a big thing, and started teaching of that. Lauren started teaching from this seven list. It wasn't the Seven Mountain Mandate yet at that point, I think he was kind of referring to it as seven mind molders of culture and started teaching it in ywam trainings.
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Tim
Wow.
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April
But I will say there was a difference at that point. Lauren Cunningham. His idea of these seven spheres seemed to be more about influence and less about conquering, where today it's kind of more like Lance Wallnell version, which we'll get to, is more about conquering and, and taking ownership and dominion. So the Seven Mountain Mandate didn't really gain much following though, until Lance Wall now. So, okay, let me give you some background on Lance Wall now. We referenced him last week in our episode. So Lance is a pastor. He claims to have worked for a Fortune 500 company before he became a minister. Online says that he worked for 20 years as an entrepreneur in the ministry, but by age 37 was a full time pastor in Rhode Island. So that's kind of his background. He has a theological or he has a master's in Southwest from Southwestern Theological Seminary. He has a doctorate in ministry from Phoenix University. Shortly during this time when he was a pastor, he meets Esther Mallet, who is a leader of the Latter Rain movement, which is big charismatic, all about apostles and prophets in the end times. And she basically sets Lance up to become pastors of one of her churches, also in Rhode Island. So in the mid-1990s, Lance is pastoring Word of Life Covenant Church in Cranston, Rhode Island. And when he talks about that time now, he kind of references it as sort of a downtime where he really wanted to be a megachurch, but nothing was materializing. It sounds like it was just not the most successful, but he really wanted to be successful. And, and when you're in charismatic churches, and maybe it's all, you know, certain larger churches too. But I know for me, like, even in my dad's ministry and then all the churches that we would visit, numbers are a big deal. You know, every, every number has a name, and every name matters to God. That was a phrase that one of our, like, mega church had. So, like, they would. They were always talking about, like, we, our goal. They had a goal to meet, to have 25,000 members by 2025. I don't believe they've met that goal. But, like, as a way to defend, like, why they wanted so many people, it was, well, every number has a name, and every name matters to God.
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Tim
You know what's interesting about that is again, just showing how big this evangelical word is there. I definitely experienced some churches that were like that, but a lot of the churches I experienced in my earlier years as a kid that were more Reformed, more like Baptist flavored, were almost proud of how small they were. They were like, no, like, because we're preaching the true gospel, of course we're not going to have a lot of people here because we're preaching the true radical gospel that is not about flashy production or numbers. I mean, I'm thinking about again, that Paul Washer sermon I listened to as a teenager where essentially he tells a bunch of kids in youth group that, like, he's not. He's talking about how we need Christians who believe the true gospel and who have the fruit of, of what Jesus calls us to have. And they're all applauding and he says to them, I don't know why you're clapping. I'm talking about you. And the river goes really quiet. So it's funny because I, I have been in spaces like my. I was part of a church plant that came out of the Christian Missionary alliance that was out of a movie theater when that trend was really popular. And it was all about multiplication, right? That was kind of the, the, the, the numbers way of saying. Or that was the pastor way of saying, we need more people here. But it didn't sound so consumeristic. So it was multiplication. But yeah, that's funny because I kind of had. I guess I've had both experiences, but most of my childhood was proud of the fact that they were small numbers.
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April
And not really big, that's so interesting because where the churches that I were around and my dad was an evangelist, so we went into a lot of different churches, like hundreds of churches. So I've experienced all types. There was definitely this idea that if you were a small church, it's because you were unsuccessful and God was not blessing you. And if you had a large church with lots, lots of people, it's that because God's hand was on your ministry, like having success and a lot of people flocking to you meant like they were drawn to the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit was in that building. Interesting.
- [17:22]
Tim
Did you find too that in your experience it was much more personality driven? Like, like you know, oh well, the pastor has a word from God. Because again in my early days it wasn't really about the, the celebrity or the Persona of the pastor, it was about how faithful they preached the word. But I've noticed as a trend in more charismatic type of circles, it's more about the person being gifted by God to speak essentially. So it seems like it's more cult of personality than it is like the word, if that makes sense.
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April
Yeah, but it was more because you would believe that whoever was led and called to be pastor had a mantle on them like an anointing on them that other people didn't have. And so that's why you could listen to what they said about God more.
- [18:06]
Tim
I guess that makes sense. Why, why Lance Wall now speaks so confidently? Because he believes that he has a special anointing by God to give this message that. And by the way, I mean it literally is changing culture. So his prophecy is kind of coming true. Right. The belief that this sub mountain mandate is, is going to be one of the big ways of changing culture via politics and government etc. So I can see how Lance walks around with a lot of confidence because not only does he believe he heard from God directly and got the special revelation that he heard and has developed and but also it's working. So that's a pretty potent mix.
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April
Yeah. So in nineteen 1998, I think feeling a little that his church was being a little stale, he starts Lance Wall Now Ministries. That was a non profit based out of the church he was pastoring at the time. And their mission statement back then was to establish an apostolic mission, providing for church planting, establishing spiritual covering for an authority over members of the fivefold ministry and group seeking association in the fellowship. Now keep in mind he's not a part of NAR yet.
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Tim
Right.
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April
But you could see that apostles and a lot of those beliefs were already existing.
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Tim
Fivefold ministry.
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April
Yeah.
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Tim
Interesting. That's interesting.
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April
Yeah. So in the year 2000, Lance Wall now meets Lauren Cunningham. Lauren Cunningham tells Lance about the vision that he had in the 70s and how his list compared to Bill Bright's list compared to Francis Schaeffer's list. All was confirmation that we believe we received this vision from God. And Lance connected that, that story with another story that he had heard from a man in Georgia who had a heart attack and a near death experience and claimed that he had a vision of seven islands emerging out of the ocean. And the seven islands became seven mountains. And God spoke to that man and said, pointed out one of the mountains and said, those are seven world kingdoms that shape the world. And pointed to one and said, that's the government mountain and you are called to go into it. And then that man did go on to be elected to the Georgia state legislator. So Lance is like, oh, well, that's from God, and this other vision is from God. So then he combined the seven spheres of influence with the guy who had the dreams of the seven mountains, and the seven mountain mandate was born. Officially, that's where the title enters the world, which I just think it's very interesting. This is something that happens a lot in evangelical spaces. You have pastors that will repackage someone else's idea and then claim it as some new idea totally where, where like literally neither of these things happened to Lance. Lance didn't get the vision either vision. But he's now, now the, you know, people, he's the spokesperson claim he's, he's the one who came up with it, so.
- [21:10]
Tim
Right. Yep. Yeah. And also you should, we should point out this is a long time ago. So this stuff does not happen in a vacuum. This stuff didn't come out of like, you know, the first Trump presidency. These ingredients have been brewing since the 70s and had been worked over and have been evolving and have been connecting to kind of to give us in 2000, when Lance Walnut puts it together, he starts preaching this for almost two decades before he starts seeing some real, Some real, like, you know, before he starts seeing the prophecy, so to speak, come true or before he starts seeing any real change. He's preaching this stuff nonstop, even as evangelicalism as a whole. It's kind of laughing at the independent, charismatic side of, of, of, of that world being like, yeah, they're a little. Don't go over to their church. But Lance is tenacious here because he embodies this thing wholesale.
- [22:02]
April
Yeah. And I want to point out too that this is the charismatic side of Seven Mountain Mandate. But this idea was existing in more Baptist and like, you know, non charismatic segments too, because you have Jerry Falwell who's also pushing the Moral Majority and pushing for Christians to get involved in government and you know, and blaming bad things that happen to America on sin and that we have to reclaim, you know, the government and the nation for God in order for God to bless us. Like there's, there's a lot of similarities and like teachings that go across the board that might be repackaged and call something else, but they come from this idea that Christians feel called by God to take control and to make laws and to be the people in charge.
- [22:49]
Tim
Yeah, I think you can argue that, that the Moral majority in the 80s was really the beginning of white evangelicalism getting hyper politicized because even in the 70s. Right. Lauren, who creates this initial idea of the Seven Mountain vision, it's spheres of influence. It's not so much taking back or conquering things, but the Moral Majority was the beginning of like, no, this is a Christian. Well, it's not the beginning, but it's really the evolution of if this is a Christian nation and secularism is taking the nation away from these godly values, which again always revolve around culture war topics. Right. Gay marriage, usually abortion, etc. Then we have to take back the country before God judges us. You're going to hear a lot of themes as we start playing videos throughout this video of judgment, of fear of God's wrath and the idea that we are sent by God to restore the nation and make it, making it great again. So it's very interesting because I agree with you, April. There's a lot of correlation, there's a lot of similar language being used in these spaces, even if they come from different theologies that, that, that they're rooted in.
- [23:51]
April
And I, yeah, I think when you look historically too, you're going to see a stronger showing of this politicizing of white Christians, of white evangelicals, when society is progressing, when more marginalized people are starting to gain rights or starting to gain influence, when they're starting to come to the similar level as white. That's when white evangelicals really go hard and start getting more political because they, you know that famous quote where it says that equality feels like oppression to the oppressor? I think you see that play out in history of when white evangelicals really start getting political. Okay, so back to the brief history so when. So this is how Lance Wall now gets connected with NAR to. Just to connect it to last week. So, C. Peter Wagner in 2001 hears Wall now speak about the Seven Mountain mandate, and then invited him to speak to teach Seven Mountain Mandate to his group, which is ica, which stands for the International Coalition of apostles. And in 2004 is when Wall now officially joins ICA and then shortly after that joins NAR, which is the New Apostolic Reformation. And this is when Lance Wallnau's career really starts taking off, when he starts getting access to NAR and that network and starts getting welcomed into this already kind of successful niche group. And that's when. So 2007, 2008 is kind of when the seven mountain mandate, when combined with Dominion Theology, really starts to spread. Because Dominionism already existed. Seven Mountain Mandate was kind of the application of Dominion theology. It was something practical that people could look out and say, like, great, we just need to conquer these seven mountains. And that's how Christians can take over or can take control.
- [25:45]
Tim
I think it's worth also noting that does correspond to Obama's presidency. I think there's something to note about. You know, when Obama got elected, a lot of white evangelicals were really freaking the hell out about this. They thought he was a Marxist, right? He Communists, he was a radical. So I do think, whether it's overt or not, there's a level of racism playing into this as well. And also this, this, this being afraid of anything that is left politically in America, right. Whether it's McCarthyism, being scared of the communists, of the Marxists, but Obama. And I remember this because I listened to talk radio my entire life. I was, I was in the middle of this. I was a teenager listening to Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. They really painted Obama as like the most radical president America has ever seen. And there were. There was a lot of Antichrist talk around President Obama in these spaces. Right. So I could definitely see how this theology, this idea of taking dominion against the forces of darkness can really take root. Some of these spaces, as they're seeing the political landscape and seeing who got. Who just got elected and what he supposedly represents and that really radicalizing those people to take back the country from the demonic forces of Marxism before it's too late.
- [27:00]
April
Yeah, no, I think that definitely is a correlation for sure. And around this time, too. So 2007, leading up to the 2008 election, John McCain was the Republican candidate who picked Sarah Palin as his vp. And Sarah Palin comes from an Assemblies of God church that very much taught new Apostolic Reformation teachings. So this whole group, Lance Wall now all these people are looking at Sarah Palin as kind of like one of their own who's more charismatic, who believes in a lot of this stuff. And so I think there was a lot of excitement around her election, but also how close back then we got to having someone that was, you know, we would call Christian Nationalist for sure. Yeah, was to be becoming vp.
- [27:50]
Tim
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- [29:51]
April
Hi, my name is Ashley and I live in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I'm a TNE donor because I believe wholeheartedly in the work that they're doing. Growing up, the word Republican was synonymous with Christian. It was implied that to be a Christian you had to vote a certain way. But around 2015, 2016, I started waking up and noticing the harmful us versus them mentality in our country. The harmful rhetoric from people like Trump or Sean Foyt, for example, just did not match up with the Jesus I knew and had been taught about for, you know, almost 30 years at that point, I'd say that was the catalyst for me to really just examine my faith.
- [30:44]
Tim
Tne content.
- [30:46]
April
I believe it inspires us to be a better and more loving neighbor to the people around us. And that is what I believe Christianity is about. So do you want to play that clip from, I think it was 2009 of Lance kind of talking about the Seven Mountains?
- [31:06]
Tim
Yep, yep. So this is a little clip here of, of Lance himself kind of explaining it. This is from 2009. So again, just keep in mind friends, that, that this stuff has been, has been cultivating and breeding in these more at the time fringe spaces for, for a long, long time. Here he is Talking about the Seven Mountain Mandate. 2009. Heaven is his throne and earth is the footstool of his feet. He was told he was to sit at the Father's right hand until God made his enemies a footstool for his feet. Which means he doesn't come back until he's accomplished the dominion of nations. The objective of a war is victory, but the objective of the victory is occupation. Because you see what God wants to do is he wants to send fire to the earth. Glory and a harvest doesn't change the nation. You have to occupy it. God wants to have the tabernacle at the top of every one of these spheres. You want to know what the spheres of the shape of nation. This is how you take a nation. You have to get into the family. That's why same sex marriage is such a demonic agenda. Get into the marriages, get into that marriage. Because whoever gets the family mountain shapes the idea of what culture is for a man and wife. He got to get into the education mountain. You know why? Because whoever's ideology is shaping that little kid when he's a child, by the time he's 19, hey, all you know, he could become part of the Hitler Youth movement and die for the Fjorden. So he's got. So Hitler basically Knew if he educated him as kids, he'd have them as. He'd have them as sons to go fight for him. Education mountain, government mountain, where your laws get legislated. Media mountain, where the truth is debated. And the arch mountain, which is where a lot of times sports and creativity comes along. We got business and finance. Is it possible that there are seven sovereign spheres of authority? A king is a person of extraordinary affluence or influence within a defined sphere of authority. If it's a defined sphere of authority, there's a strong man behind them, by the way. That's how you take nations. It's the only way you take nations. There's never been a nation taken as a result of an evangelism harvest. You have a very broad constituency of 85 to 90% of the American population is not for same sex marriage. How is it that 8% can impose their agenda on the other 90%? We have a conundrum because you only need 8%, a minority in the right place and they become the leverage that shapes the culture. It's so interesting because so much of what he says, you and I have talked about April for a long time, that Christian nationalists do not care about being the majority. All they need is the access to power to shape laws and culture how they want. And that's Lance in 2009 saying that. He's essentially admitting, like, yeah, like, we don't need to be the majority. We just need to be a small minority with enough power and access to that power to shape things. I think it's also interesting to hear how warlike his language is. This guy sounds like he is literally in a war and thinking about how do I conquer or. Or destroy the enemy. So this ideology, this warlike language that we hear today from a lot of these people like Lance and many others in the government, this comes from somewhere. And I just think it's really telling, hearing Lance say these things, what, almost 18 years ago.
- [34:18]
April
And I just gotta peel back the curtain for a second because when you're outside of this world, that sounds crazy, right? What he's talking about sounds so intense and ridiculous. Like he's talking about gay marriage like it's the Black Plague, you know? But I want to say, like, as someone who grew up in charismatic circles, you are taught from a very, very, very early age that it is a war, that spiritual warfare is real. And basically everything that exists in the world is either being pushed by good, which would be God and angels, or it's being influenced by bad, which is demons. And Satan. And there's literally no middle, right? There's no gray, there's no in, like, nuance. It's either good or bad. And so you are constantly, as a child growing up, you're, you're looking at media, you're looking at movies, you're looking at your friends, and they're either being influenced by God or they're being influenced by Satan. And then you have to choose how you live your life. Like, every little decision you make, it's like, oh, was that my thought? Is that me thinking this? Or is that a demon influencing me? Or is that God? And even if you think it's your own flesh, you're taught that you are inherently bad and that your flesh, your instincts, cannot be trusted because of original sin, that we're all born sinners. And that even if you're a Christian and you pray the sinner's prayer every single day, you are still made of flesh and your flesh is bad. So you cannot trust your instincts. And it's, it's literally such a cover for abuse, but it's how, like, people and, and ideologies like this can seep in without any pushback because you're already trained to see that there is a real Satan and he wants to control the world because he hates God and he hates Jesus, and we are the people that can stop him. We are the only people as Christians who can stand in his way.
- [36:15]
Tim
I was taught that the, the terminology I was given was, it's worldly. That's what the world does, and you're not of the world, right? So we have to abstain from the world or we have to evangelize the world. But, you know, don't go to secular college because that's worldly, will be indoctrinated. Don't trust what the scientists are saying because evolution is, is, is evil and not good. And, you know, again, I was taught total depravity. So in the Calvinist American tradition, you're taught that you were just inherently totally depraved. There's nothing you can do. Nothing. Nothing you can do. Your works are like filthy rags, right? And to your point, you can't trust your own intuition because the heart is deceitful. See, this is what's so interesting, is this world always has a Bible verse, I would argue ripped out of context to justify their position. So you're kind of given this really weird perspective where the Bible is the ultimate authority, but really the people who are mediating the Bible to you are the ultimate authority. Right? Because Abraham sure. For you too. When you started taking your own faith seriously and started digging into the text and reading other maybe scholars or theologians who, who actually had better evidence of why maybe the text doesn't say what I was taught it meant, then I was called a woke progressive Christian and not, not a biblical Christian. Right. Then I was taught, then I was told, well, you're no longer really truly saved. Not because I got rid of the Bible, but simply because I dove deeper into the Bible than they did and I contradicted their teachings. Right. So, but when you're in it to your point, you can't see that. And I think that's important because look, we, you know, we go live every Thursday. We have a little more fun, a little more lighthearted. We, we, we poke fun at, at the absurdity because we need to. But also there is a logic to this. There is something for a lot of people that's compelling about this, even if they can't see how cult like and how anti intellectual this worldview is. And it ends up radicalizing people because they see the world through a black and white binary of good versus bad. If God is for us, who can be against us? We're in a war. If we don't, if we don't take back whatever it is, the devil will win and something bad will happen. And that's manifested through culture war issues, right? Oh, gay marriage got legalized. That's a sign, That's a sign that the devil has a stronghold of the nation. Oh, a pro choice position or Roe v. Wade is now, is now the law of the land. Oh, that's another sign. So it's, it's always revolving around patriarchal norms, heteronormative norms, anti women norms, etc.
- [38:46]
April
Well, and it also gives people a strong sense of purpose if they believe there is this battle of good versus evil and you're on the side of good. And you know something that not everybody knows. It's, it's, it's empowering in a way. And, and it takes, it makes the suffering that we go through as human beings on this earth more bearable. Because you believe. Well, God's only allowing this because of blah, blah, blah, because it's part of his plan. Because you know, God's going to use this testimony, going to use my suffering to further his will. Like there's a purpose in it. And I also want to point out too, a lot of people in this space believe that Jesus will only come back once Christians have conquered these seven mountains. And so there's Also a weird hope in it too, because there are a lot of people. There's that quote shoot. Who's it from? I can't remember who it's by, but it's. Some Christians are so heavenly minded that they're no earthly good. And it's this idea that you don't really care what happens to the earth, to the planet, to your neighbors, because Jesus is going to come back, you're going to have the Rapture and you're going to get sucked up into the sky and not have to die and go live in heaven with Jesus, which is what everybody wants to do. And so there's this very much, you know, eternal mind that doesn't really care what's happening on earth. It doesn't care that some people are losing rights. That it like. Because none of it matters because at the end of the day, you're either going to heaven or you're going to hell.
- [40:10]
Tim
I was taught that's why climate change doesn't matter, because the world's gonna burn up anyway. So it doesn't matter.
- [40:15]
April
Yep.
- [40:16]
Tim
I mean, it sounds crazy now, but when you're in it, it's very believable. It just is.
- [40:20]
April
Yeah. So. So let's like skip a few years ahead. So that was 2009. 2015 is when the seven mountain mandate and Christian nationalism gets married to Donald Trump and gets married to the MAGA movement. Yeah. So do you. I have that clip from Lance in 2015 where he talks about how God told him that Trump is Cyrus. So Lance was one of the. There were, there were a bunch. Lance was one of the first Trump prophets. These are people that prophesied that God wants to use Donald Trump to make America Christian, to kind of sanctify the earth, however they want to describe it. But they believe that it is their godly duty to make sure Trump is elected.
- [41:07]
Tim
Yes. This is from 2016. This is Lance Wall now. And then we'll kind of break it down. Former Scottish anointing is on Trump. I believe that he. And by the way, what did Cyrus in the Bible, King Cyrus, what was he decreed to do? He wasn't a Jew. He was outside the Jewish community. But God said, I've anointed him. Cyrus is anointed. 45th chapter of Isaiah is the 45th president of the United States. That's what I'm sticking with. Here's what I want to tell you. Cyrus gave the command, build a wall. I'm delirious with the light. Build a wall. Now. Don't forget, this is January of 2016.
- [41:47]
April
So I think it said February on there.
- [41:49]
Tim
Oh, February, sorry. Yeah, you're right, sorry. The second month of the year is February. That's January. Yeah.
- [41:55]
April
And we did have a video, I think, from 2015, where he also claims that Trump is Cyrus, but the audio was bad.
- [42:02]
Tim
Yes. I want to point out two quick things here, April. Number one, this is Matthew Taylor calls this a prophetic meme. It's a term that he coined. And the idea is that these so called prophets or apostles are really good at generating essentially talking points, but they go viral among the base. And Trump being Osiris is one of these prophetic memes that just takes off. I mean, even people outside the new episodic reformation, the independent charismatic world, start picking up on it and using that language. But I want to kind of give some context here because I can imagine people being like, why is he pulling this random dude out of the Hebrew Bible, Cyrus, and connecting it. There is a term that Scott Coley, who's the author of the Ministers of Propaganda, great book, by the way, he calls it motivated literalism. And I think that this definition will help people better understand how folks like Lance and other fundamentalists understand the Bible. So here's what he says. He says motivated literalism is a tendency to interpret scripture literally, but only when it doesn't undermine one's material interests. Motivated literalism allows evangelicals to insist that the earth and all its contents were Created by in 624 hour days, while maintaining that Jesus didn't really intend to say that a wealthy man will have more difficulty entering heaven than a camel passing through the eye of a needle. Or that Jesus didn't really expect his followers to emulate the conduct of the Good Samaritan. And I love this because it makes sense, right? Because we often ask, April, how do you read the words of Jesus and say, wow, what Trump is doing in America right now is so great and biblical. Well, motivated literalism is, I think, the key here because Lance is literally just pulling out of his butt random things in the Bible to connect to why Trump is the dude that God has chosen. It's out of context. Lance is not Jewish. Lance is not in. In ancient Israel. None of those things apply. But Lance is pillaging the Bible going, oh, chapter 45, 45th President Cyrus. It makes sense. And therefore Trump is God's chosen. And his audience eats it up because they're primed to receive these prophetic words from people of God that are, that are able to shape what God says, you know, is decreed by him and who he anoints and who he doesn't.
- [44:15]
April
And this goes back to, we mentioned last week, the numbers game that a lot of charismatic played where. Where they take a verse and they connect it to whatever they need in the moment. You see Paul White saying, you know, Esther, 432 means you have to send me $432 for, you know, whatever it is. And then you have lance saying, well, 45. This verse 45 or chapter 45 means 45th president. It's. I remember. I think one of the craziest ones I've heard leading up to 2016 was people were telling me that God wanted Donald Trump because when it says the trumpet will sound, Trumpet Trump pence. Because it sounded the same.
- [45:00]
Tim
Right, right. I mean, it's just. Let's face it, April, what this is is. It's just justification to have the views that you want and having God stamp it as approved. Right. Like it is, again, in deeply ironic that so many of these folks claim that they are just being biblical when in reality, the reverse is happening. They have certain ideas, they have certain presuppositions, and they're pillaging the Bible for the justification of why these views are okay to. To. To hold. Even if the themes of scripture and really the Christian tradition historically would. Would really spit in the face of so many of these ideas and views.
- [45:35]
April
Yeah, yeah, no, totally. Okay. So we have a. We have a bunch of videos. Do you want to go now to current now, Lance? This is current. This was from a few weeks ago. Lance Wall now is saying Trump is no longer Cyrus.
- [45:52]
Tim
Yeah.
- [45:52]
April
He's a different biblical character.
- [45:54]
Tim
The point of this is just to show again how quick. Right. They will reinterpret things for a moment, and then all of a sudden, oh, wait, he's no longer Cyrus. Now he's this other random king in the Hebrew Bible. So just listen to this. It says in chapter 11, verse one. Okay? I, Gabriel the archangel, stood by Darius. Darius. To confirm him in the first year of his administration. That meant God sent an archangel to do warfare to get the right person in office in the first 12 months. What's interesting is Cyrus is the one who's being talked about in chapter 10. And suddenly it's Darius. Yes, there's a switch. Chapter 11. Here's what Mario Bramnick said, who was at the meeting, works with the Trump team. He said Donald Trump was Cyrus, 45, but when he comes back in, he's not Isaiah. He's not. He's no longer the 45th president. He said what? Is he going to be the 47th president? So the 45th. 46th. 47th, yes. So he's coming in as 47. 47 is going to be Darius. So he goes in as Cyrus, but he comes back as Darius. And in that context, we have a battle to get him in. We have a battle to push it over the finish line. And then we have the first year of his administration is supernatural, angelic reinforcement. Yeah. I mean, one of the obvious things with this is that obviously there was no administration of King Darius because, I don't know, things didn't work that way thousands of years ago. But notice how Lance uses that language to have the audience and his co host here connect the dots of oh yeah, just like what's happening now, right? Oh yeah. King Darius had an administration for 12 months and we have the first year of the Sioux administration. And therefore it's the same thing. Of course it's not there. There is literally light years of difference between the two. But this is how they use the Bible as a way to again justify their perspectives, even if the Bible isn't talking about anything remotely close to what Lance is trying to point out in this clip. It's unbelievable, honestly, to witness.
- [48:05]
April
It's. It's so exhausting. You know, I don't know if you remember too, like. So as a sidebar, like going back to the influencing of culture, this goes far beyond just politics and government. So I went to graduate school at Regent University and their motto is Christian Leadership to Change the World. And I got my master's in journalism. At the time I wanted to be in Fox News. But they literally teach you, like. So that's where I met Beecher, my spouse too. They were there for film school and, and in the classes we were literally taught how to kind of be like incognito Christians in secular environments and how to influence people around us, like, as spies in a way. Like as a journalist, I could go in and, and influence my Christian worldview into choosing particular stories or in framing stories in a certain way where my worldview gets pushed through subtly. And the same thing went for filmmaking. Like there was a. There's a place, I think it still exists, a ministry called Hollywood Prayer Network. And their whole goal is to like, infiltrate Hollywood with Christians and to, you know, kind of influence from within. So you have the people that are over, but then you have like these covert, like super spies for Jesus just in secular environments. And like, we would have church, like, we would have business ministries, like business groups for men and women who were in, you know, the private sector or working in business or in corporate world on how to influence people around them for God while working as a CEO or while working as, you know, a marketer like the this. And we were not seven mountain mandate people, but it was still this idea that if you are a Christian, you have a calling to bring God to wherever you work. Wherever you work is your mission field.
- [50:06]
Tim
I think it's really worth highlighting here that there's nothing wrong with having that belief. Right. There's nothing wrong with someone saying, I have this theological belief. I'm a Christian. I believe these things. I believe in being part of the kingdom of God and giving that, you know, glimpses of on earth as is in heaven. Right. I think those are beautiful things. It's what they're tied to in this particular context that makes them so damaging. Right. We're not talking about things that are like, I don't know what Jesus actually taught. We're not talking about what you do for the least of easy you do unto me. We're not talking about not deporting immigrants. We're not talking about wealth inequality or the problem of real greed that exists in America. It's always tied to specific culture war issues that always tend to put white Christians at the top of the pile and everyone else somewhere beneath it. Right. Waging war on the gay agenda, dei, et cetera. So I think it's important for us to clarify that. Right. Because you and I, on a theological level, might even believe some of these ideas on its face of, like, look, as a Jesus person, I want to represent Jesus wherever I go. To be a Christian means to be a little Christ. I want to be the hands and feet of Jesus. I want to give people a glimpse of what kingdom life can be like. But that's attached to what Jesus actually taught. And unfortunately for so much of this white evangelical soup that you and I grew up in, even though it was so different, there's a lot of overlap of these, this terminology. Right. Of being a. Being a godly witness, having a biblical worldview. It's the presuppositions that are behind it are oftentimes incredibly toxic and do way more harm than good.
- [51:43]
April
Well, yeah, it's not about taking care of the least of these. It's about you want to make sure you're not hiring queer people.
- [51:49]
Tim
Exactly.
- [51:49]
April
At your secular job. You know, it's, it's standing up for truth by, by bullying the right people or speaking truth in love. And, you know, it's, it's, it's basically kind of a, yeah, love the sinner, hate the sin, and all these, you know. Now it's the sin of empathy. You don't want to commit the sin of empathy. So there's these, like, certain brands of Christianity. When they talk about spreading your faith, it's not about kindness and making sure, like, everyone gets equal wages, you know, or that people have fair, like, livable, Livable wages or health care or, like, take. You know, it's. It's nothing about nothing. The Beatitudes or the Sermon on the Mount. It's. It's about conquering and pushing your worldview that keeps white evangelicals in power.
- [52:36]
Tim
And that's why, if you notice so far, these people are not talking about Jesus. It's always some random king. It's something in Genesis. Like, if you listen to these people talk, and I've heard them talk a lot. I've. I've heard them speak in person. We follow them for a living. You do not hear a lot of the words of Jesus in their teachings. You just don't. You don't even hear a lot of the Apostle Paul or. Or the New Testament unless it's like, a very specific verse picked out of context. A lot of it comes from the Hebrew Bible and it's used as justification. I think we should play the clip of Sean Foyt talking about, like, you know, just taking America over, because this is such a revealing clip, and it really. I think it really. It really demonstrates the kind of militant zealotry that is behind this, which, again, completely contradicts the teachings of Jesus. If you read any of the four gospels, the red letters, and then. And then listen to what Sean's going to say here, you will not find any kind of compatibility.
- [53:37]
April
Yeah, yeah. And if you don't know who Sean. Point is, he did. Those worship protests during COVID was totally against Covid. Like lockdowns, mass mandates. Yeah, mass mandates. Or just any sort of restriction around Covid because he was framing it as Christian persecution. And he's. He's just awful.
- [53:59]
Tim
The phrase he used was faith over fear. Faith over fear, as he had armed security with him.
- [54:06]
April
Yeah. He's done worship events in the capital rotunda where just recently, two different times in the last couple weeks, ministers have been arrested for praying in the rotunda. But he's done worship events there.
- [54:21]
Tim
Yeah, I'm gonna play the whole clip. We're gonna. We're gonna just let this thing cook. It's all part of the king coming back. That's what we're Practicing for. That's why, that's why hell hates it, that we're worshiping at every capital across America. I'm sorry, can I just pause quickly? Just pick up the language here, friends. Right. It's all about when the end of the world happens. When Jesus comes back and hell. Who is hell? Who is he talking about? He's talking about political opposition. He's talking about Democrats, progressive Christians that might not be in favor of his Christian supremacy. That's who he is talking about here. And that's who his audience hears when he uses language like that.
- [55:04]
April
Yeah.
- [55:05]
Tim
Why we get called. Well, you're Christian nationalist. You want, you want the kingdom to be the government. Yes. You want God to come and overtake the government. Yes. You want Christians to be the only ones. Yes, we do. We wouldn't be a disciple of Jesus if we didn't believe that. We want God to be in control of everything. We want believers to be the ones riding the laws. Yes. Guilty as charged. I mean, it's funny when I meet Christians where I'm like, I don't really. I'm not really. I'm like, have you read the Great Commission? Like, this is actually what we want. Guilty. There you go. There you go.
- [55:51]
April
I want to point out too.
- [55:53]
Tim
Go ahead.
- [55:55]
April
That when he's talking about we want Christians in charge, like, again, he's talking about his specific brand of Christianity. And these people believe that they. That good only comes from their God, that that goodness cannot be found anywhere outside of their idea of who God is. You know, And I say there because I'm still Christian, but I don't, I don't feel like I worship the same God that they do. It's the God of the Bible. But like, I have a Jesus follower. I like what he's saying. Like Jesus is the antithesis of everything that Sean is talking about. Like Jesus did. Jesus got arrested and crucified and he did not tell his disciples to storm the capital of Rome, you know, or.
- [56:44]
Tim
Or become the empire.
- [56:46]
April
Right, right, exactly.
- [56:48]
Tim
And like right wing Jesus is like, go into the world and take over all the empires and rule them from the top down. No, it's not what he says. You know, the great. Again, this is just how, this is how disingenuous these folks are. The great commission, Matthew 28, verse 18. Then Jesus said to them, came to them and said, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Not to Sean Foyt, not to Christian nationalists, not to even other Christians. All authority in heaven, on earth has been given to Jesus, to him. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, of the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. What did Jesus teach Sean? In fact, think about the big trial of Jesus versus the devil, right? The. The. The 40 days in the wilderness. The devil gives Jesus the chance to take over the world, to rule the world. If you just bow down and he says, no, get ye behind me, essentially, he says, no, take a hike. I'm not doing that. But people like Sean, they do bow, they do kiss the ring. They say, oh, worldly power. We would love that. I would love that. So it's so antithetical to even the words that Jesus says. Sean, read the Great Commission again, buddy. And then go read the red letters of Jesus and take notes, and then compare and contrast your worldview and ideology and what Jesus actually taught. News flash. He'd be flipping over your tables.
- [58:20]
April
Yes, it's also important, he says there, we want God in control. We want God in the government, we want God writing the laws, but there's no physical form of God on this earth. So what he means is he wants white evangelicals who speak for God to write these laws. And in these charismatic circles, that is especially scary because as we talked last week, they put emphasis on the Holy Spirit of the Trinity, which means that they can get revelations from God in real time, and so they can come out and speak for God and say whatever atrocity they're claiming comes from God. And when you couple that with the teaching that you're not supposed to touch God's anointed, and you're not supposed to call out anyone who's anointed by God, then you are then elevating people who have Godlike authority in the nation, which is what they've given to Trump somehow, despite him being not Christ, like, in the least Antichrist than Christ. Yes, exactly. I will say the only time I've heard Christian nationalists reference Jesus when it comes to Trump is when they say, well, my Savior is also a convicted felon. Like, that's it.
- [59:36]
Tim
Exactly. Okay, one last thing, and then we'll get to more videos. There's so much more to get to. Friends, thanks for being here. And again, make sure to subscribe to the channel. We do this every week, and we go live on Thursdays. Give this video a like. Give this video a comment. Love your thoughts on it. But just really quick, one more thing. Is God in control or not? Like, is God sovereign or not? Right. Because they will, they will use this idea interchangeably. Like, wait, you want, you want God to be in control? Or is God in control? Like, which one is it? Is God this all powerful being that is totally in control no matter who's in charge of America? Or is God this really wimpy beat deity where people like Sean have to do things on earth to make sure that God's back in control? Like how there it's. It's simultaneously coherent. I see the logic behind it, but it's also incredibly illogical and not co incoherent. It's very hard to get. And this is why we're doing the deep dive. Right. Because it's not just as easy as these people are crazy. No, there's a logic behind this. There's a belief behind this. And that impacts what we're seeing now in America.
- [60:43]
April
Well, and it's also an exhausting ideology to hold. Like day in and day out, when you're in it, you have to con. You're constantly doing mental gymnastics in order to keep that belief system. Yeah. And we both come from that world. So 100%. It's not fun.
- [61:05]
Tim
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April
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Tim
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April
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Tim
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April
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Tim
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- [62:10]
April
Do you want to go to David Barton?
- [62:13]
Tim
Yeah.
- [62:14]
April
And then his connection to Mike Johnson.
- [62:16]
Tim
Yeah. Yep. So David Barton for this is. Where is he? This guy here?
- [62:21]
April
That's him.
- [62:21]
Tim
David Barton. It's on this. Sorry, I'm laughing because it's ridiculous. On this screen it says that he is a historian and founder and president of Wall Builders. David Barton is not a historian. Okay? He has no degree in history. I believe his degree was in accounting. And any historian who is actually trained as a historian laughs at David Barton. But David Barton is paraded around the right wing circles and the right wing MAGA circuit. He speaks at Turning Point USA events as like this, the, the authentic, genuine historian of the true history of America. Keep that in mind. But you're going to hear him here repeating the seven mandate ideology. And we're doing this to show you how wide this idea has, is being disseminated inside of right wing MAGA spaces.
- [63:07]
April
I just want to say, according to npr, David Barton has a bachelor's degree in Christian education from Oral Roberts University.
- [63:15]
Tim
Thank you. Appreciate that God has put all of us together and Wall Builders is helping put together the curriculum. Mark will be the local contact here that will be running the program. And together we're going to open up a third year program where we take our students and just get them involved in practical government. So David, let me start with you. What is the practical government? What is the benefit of this school or the need for it? What are we hoping the need for? It's pretty simple. A lot in the Christian community we hear about the seven mountains or the seven mountains influence. And it really is the deal that when they went into the promised land, there were these seven mountains had to be conquered. And you look at them today and you say, well that's business, that's education, that's government, that's media. That's what one of them is, government. And that's something we've stayed away from from a long time. Proverbs 29:2 says that when the wicked rule, people groan. Doesn't take a hearing aid to hear all the groaning going on. It's because the righteous have not been involved. And so in the school of government that you have across most universities now, you don't want those people close to government. I mean they have such a different philosophy. They don't like America, they don't like the Constitution. There's, there's no Judeo Christian basis to what they do. It is, let's transform in a different direction. And they want to move us toward, toward a secular and they do very aggressively. So the school of government is needed because we need to take and apply the principles that we use to build this nation. The Constitution is built on Judeo Christian biblical principles. Most people can't even name what any of them are Used to be that we knew what Bible verses. John Adams has a series of letters where he talks about how Jeremiah 17:9 is what gave us separation of powers. Nobody would know that today. So you get back to the original intent, back to how they built it and used it. And, and so we look to turn out students that when they come out of here can go make a positive impact in restoring the nation, putting it back in the position God wants it in, a position that righteousness exalts the nation. That only happens if you get those kind of people coming out. Okay. Oh, that was, what's that dinging? Is it me?
- [65:20]
April
I don't know.
- [65:21]
Tim
Oh, you know, I'm hitting the wrong button and a triangle sound keeps on popping up.
- [65:25]
April
I heard that and I thought, I thought I was imagining it.
- [65:27]
Tim
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's so it's just me.
- [65:30]
April
David Barton, he may not be a household name to you, but he has heavy influence on someone that is a household name. Speaker of the House Mike Johnson, who's third in line to the presidency right now. He said, there's that article. When Mike first became speaker, NBC News had a headline that said, meet the evangelical activists who's had a profound influence. That's a quote from Mike Johnson on speaker Mike Johnson. And they are talking about none other than David Barton, who you just heard as a, is a big proponent of the seven mountain mandate.
- [66:11]
Tim
Can I also just add, it's so, it's so fascinating here. David Barton say they don't like the Constitution, like the left. And meanwhile, Trump, like the other day, literally said he doesn't know if he has to uphold the Constitution, like, literally. This dude on day one, by executive order, tried to overwrite birthright citizenship, but just baked into our Constitution. Like, it's so aggravating to hear these people talk and watch their own dude do the opposite of what they claim they believe in.
- [66:43]
April
It's like crazy to me. I keep hoping one day I'm going to wake up and these guys are going to grow a pair and actually stand up to Donald Trump because he's. Donald Trump is doing the things that they've claimed for decades to be against.
- [66:59]
Tim
He's doing everything anyway. Okay, side note, we'll do that for a live eventually.
- [67:04]
April
But yeah, okay, we'll save that. We'll save our rant. Go to that clip of Mike Johnson. So this is a clip that started going around once Mike Johnson became the speaker. So this was in October of 2023. This, the clips that are in this CNN article were played were from an episode where Mike Johnson is being interviewed by Jim Garlow, who's also a big proponent of the Seven Mountain Mandate. And so this, this is a few weeks before he becomes speaker. But just, just listen to these clips. This, this Mike Johnson definitely has the mind of a Christian nationalist and he's.
- [67:45]
Tim
Third in line to the presidency. Yeah, here we go. The only question is, is God going to allow our nation to enter a time of judgment for our collective sins which his mercy and grace have held back for some time, or is he going to give us one more chance to restore the foundations and return to Him? We will not be able to do it without the Lord's help because there's so. The flesh is. And the mistrust and the sin, and everything is so great here that we. This is going to have to bring people to their knees. And look, I believe God is about to do something. Do you have time to answer the question is say any more about the issue of. This could be a time of judgment for America.
- [68:26]
April
That's Jim. Carlo.
- [68:27]
Tim
I mean, I don't. I'd be. I'd say I preach to the choir on this, this zoom call, or maybe the honor choir. You all know that terrible state that we're in. The faith in our institutions is as low as it's ever been in the history of our nation. The culture is so dark and depraved that it almost seems irredeemable at this point. The church attendance in America dropped below 50% for the first time in our history since they began to measure the data 60 years ago. And the number of people who do not believe in absolute truth is now above the majority for the first time. So one in three teen girls contemplated suicide last year. One in four high school students identifies as something other than straight.
- [69:12]
April
Oh, no.
- [69:13]
Tim
Oh, no. The gays. The gays. They're doing it. You know what's infuriating about that? I. I could agree that maybe we are in danger of being judged by God for deporting immigrants, for letting a billionaire class run amok and exploit the poor and oppressed, for. For not dealing with our issue of systemic racism in this country. So, sure, Mike. I mean, again, like, I could get behind as a Christian, the idea that maybe God isn't too happy with how America is being run, but not because of the gays. In fact, I would argue, Mike, that maybe God's not happy how we're running the country because you and your Christian nationalist cronies have, have gotten one of the most Corrupt, megalomaniac, prideful, arrogant, dehumanizing men in this nation's history, elected as he does some of the most antichrist things imaginable. But no, Mike is like, you know what, guys? It's the gays. It's the gays.
- [70:13]
April
And.
- [70:14]
Tim
And one more thing. I'm sorry I have to say it. And the fact that most Americans don't believe in absolute truth. What, Mike? Like the fact that the election in 2020 was not stolen and your dude keeps parroting lies like you are the epitome of subjective moralism. You and your crew embody the exact thing that you claim people like me and April and most of this audience have now become because we deconstructed our faith. Just miss me. Do like, it's. It's absolute. I'm going to curse. It's horseshit. It's absolute horseshit.
- [70:44]
April
Also, like his list of reasons that show how America is in such dark times. Now, keep in mind, this was in 2023, so Joe Biden was still president, and he.
- [70:56]
Tim
The.
- [70:56]
April
The examples he gives to prove how America is in dark times. Church attendance being below 50%. Okay? And then that above 50% are people who do not believe in absolute truth. Meaning that he's framing his ideas, his narrow interpretation of scripture as absolute truth because there is this elitism that comes from this world that they have absolute truth and nobody else has access to that. Now, I do want to also point out teenage suicide is definitely a problem. Then he lists one in four teenagers identify queer. Queer people are far more likely, if you look at any stat from the Trevor project, like they are the most vulnerable group of people to contemplate suicide. And the reasons that they do that is because of having unaffirming and unsupportive family and society, which is our things that Mike Johnson preaches. Being against gay marriage, being against trans people, pushing this hate towards that group is what is going to cause those people to commit, you know, to be. To have suicidal ideation. Like he's complaining about something that he, his ideology is the cause of.
- [72:11]
Tim
The Trump administration is trying to cut funding to the teen suicide hotline for, for queer folks and also for veterans, by the way, like Mike, maybe you're causing the problems that you're complaining about. Even the church, you know, if the church was more accountable, if the church as a whole was more open to realizing that people live differently and that the world's bigger than them and not so hell bent on authority and control, maybe we wouldn't be leaving your spaces in the. In the tens of thousands, you know? So, anyway, yeah, it's. It's. It's just. It's. It's total egg on the face. And like you said, there is a. There is a hidden elitism here, because Mike would say, it's all God. I'm being used by God. That is the most pretentious thing. You could say that the God of the universe has chosen you right out of all the people to do great things. But, hey, it's not me. It's just God. No, it's. Stop it, Mike. We all know what you're doing. You're bragging.
- [73:03]
April
I'm pretty sure in his, like, one of his opening speeches, too, when he accepted being speaker, he compares himself to Moses.
- [73:09]
Tim
Yes, he does.
- [73:10]
April
He does. Like, Imag. Imagine comparing yourself to Moses.
- [73:15]
Tim
Like, I don't want to brag. I kind of see our show as. You know, I'm like a new David, honestly. You know, just charting new territory and slaying. Slaying giants wherever I go. So, again, that's just a thought. I mean, God's using me in special ways, but, hey, I'm a nobody. Don't mind me.
- [73:31]
April
I know. I don't know what female character to compare myself to.
- [73:35]
Tim
Esther. You're like an Esther.
- [73:36]
April
Oh, yeah.
- [73:37]
Tim
Saving your people.
- [73:38]
April
That was. That was what I heard. Every single woman.
- [73:43]
Tim
Wait, no. Not a Jezebel.
- [73:45]
April
Nazi.
- [73:50]
Tim
Let's go to America Fest. I just want to kind of. I. The. As we kind of land the plane here, right, we wanted to give you an overview of Seven Mountain mandates. The Seven Mountain Mandate, the key player behind it. And just showing you how wide this idea is baked into the MAGA ethos. People who have a lot of power in government, in society, they believe this. They believe this. In fact, why don't we play the clip of who. Who got elected? Drenda. Casey.
- [74:17]
April
Casey. Yeah, I think is how you say her name.
- [74:19]
Tim
Okay. Do you know, like, she got elected to a local office, I believe. Is that correct?
- [74:26]
April
Yes. So she was running for county commissioner in Knox County, Ohio, and she was elected.
- [74:31]
Tim
All right, so listen to her as she. She got elected. She goes, I guess. Looks like on Instagram. Listen to what she says here. This is Knox County's new office. I'll continue to do the things I do for the ministry and for the church, but as I've talked to you in books like Fight Like Heaven, it's an opportunity for us to take on the seven mountains, to bring righteousness and God's plans for the government. Governments are Important we know so much so that in the early in the garden, Satan wanted the governmental authority and he basically deceived Adam and Eve into handing over authority on the earth, which required Jesus to come in to give us back our authority and redeem us from the curse of the law of sin that was set in motion and death because of Adam and Eve's decision. So we should be involved in government. The Bible says when the righteous rule, the people rejoice and sin is a reproach to any nation or any people. And so I'm, I'm honored to serve Knox County. I want to encourage any of you that are considering running for office. It is a calling to be in government. It is a calling to take on any of those mountains of education and arts and music and media. There's all these areas we need to share God's kingdom principles so that we can have righteousness rule. There you go.
- [75:54]
April
So that was, that was from January of 2025. So that was recent, that's.
- [76:01]
Tim
For sure. For sure. Wild. Wild. Yeah. Honestly, I, I, I, I don't, I don't like using this language a whole lot because, because there's, this could be tied to like Islamophobic sentiment, but this is like the Christian Taliban in a lot of ways. Like what we're dealing with here is a very radical strain of Christianity that believes in conquering a nation, which is again ironic considering I was warned about that happening from other religious groups thanks to talk radio. And now that exact thing is happening by my, the tradition that really raised me, which is just I think so concerning cashier. One more clip that I think is important. So this is, this is, this was taken at America Fest. I think it was this year actually. I was at this event. Full transparency. I have talked to all of these guys. I, well, I talked to two of them in, in depth. I met the other two. Left to right we have Rob McCoy, who is Charlie Kirk's like mentor and pastor as far as I'm aware. In the middle is Lucas Miles. He's the current director of Turning Point Faith. That is Turning Point's faith initiative. In the, to the right of him is Lance Wall, now Seven Mountain Mandate. On the right of that is Gene Bailey, host of Flashpoint. Listen to how they talk about this stuff at, at America Fest, one of the biggest organizations in the right wing media sphere. Live from Phoenix, Arizona. If you didn't know, we're in America Fest here.
- [77:17]
April
Lance Wall now, Lucas Miles and our friend Rob McCoy.
- [77:20]
Tim
Good evening, gentlemen. So here's what The Democrats are doing right now, it's a spiritual battle and they are drawing a line through the one area where they have the greatest strength in Congress. The swing to the right is going to impact the midterms if we seize the moment. And the secret is 40 million evangelical Christians who know apocalyptically that America is right now in an early phase of an awakening. We have to push that issue. And all we've got to do is flip about 20 seats and we could see the sustained reformation Trump is attempting for 48 months continuously. And at this, at this season of Christmas, we always hear the prophet Isaiah, Isaiah 9, 6, when he announced, for unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulders, and to the increase of his government there shall be no end.
- [78:24]
April
I also think as believers, we have.
- [78:26]
Tim
The ultimate weapon of warfare that is often underutilized. We have the Holy Spirit, as the Bible's really clear on earth as it is in heaven.
- [78:34]
April
That means I don't just sit around.
- [78:35]
Tim
I get to occupy. So how are we activated and how do we occupy? There you go.
- [78:40]
April
That was this past turning point.
- [78:44]
Tim
I have talked to most of those people on that.
- [78:47]
April
Yeah, that was 2024.
- [78:51]
Tim
Yes, yes. And if you people want, if people want a deep dive on America Fest, they can go over to the new evangelicals, sorry, YouTube channel. I did an hour long recap of my time at that event for three and a half days. It is wild. But this is the ideology, this is the theology that is fueling what is happening right now in this administration. Anti immigration. That's because of what these folks believe. Dismantling the Department of Education because these folks believe it. The idea of destroying DEI HIRES initiatives, these folks believe that. Right. Taking over culture, it's all baked into it. And my concern, April, that you and I and I talk about a lot is that I don't think enough people understand this side of what's happening right now in 2025America politically. And we have to, because this stuff is the fuel, it's the religious fuel that is giving the justification for these Christians to act in such dehumanizing ways.
- [79:43]
April
Yeah. And it is scary because they do have a lot of power, but I don't think we've lost hope. There are a lot of people fighting this. There are a lot of people that are starting to wake up and just to. You know, I've talked about this several times, so I'm not to like, beat a dead horse, but I used to be a Christian nationalist. Like, I Used to subscribe to all of these beliefs minus the Trump aspect of it. And I don't believe that anymore. Like there are people who can change. I really believe that if I can change, anyone can change. And not to toot my own horn, but my book, Star Spangled Jesus, which is all about time in Christian nationalism and how I left it behind. I've actually heard from several people and recently a pastor from a state. I won't say he wants to remain anonymous, but that people who have given this to their loved ones, who are still MAGA or Christian nationalists in some way, that it got, actually got through to them where they were actually.
- [80:38]
Tim
I love that.
- [80:38]
April
I love that conversation. And now that's like my goal, one, to give more information on Christian nationalism, but to hopefully change people's mind because we want people to change. So yes, it's scary. There are people deep in it that really, really believe it. But also people can change.
- [80:55]
Tim
And lastly, let this radicalize you to be a force of empathy, love, hope and beauty in the world. Like, let this, let this motivate you. If you're listen this and you're scared, like, oh my God, how. Let this motivate you to get involved in local politics, get involved in your school boards, get involved in maybe running for a certain position in, in, in your town, you know, elections or something like, just get involved. The way that we're able to combat this on the political level is by good people getting involved and offering a better path. Right. Obviously this show is designed to help expose what's going on. The other side of that, though, is filling it, filling the void with something better. Something that advocates for the well being of all of our neighbors. Something that advocates for livable wages, affordable health care, access to education. Right? Protecting marginalized communities, protecting the immigrant. Offer your neighbor a better vision. That's a better alternative to whatever the hell this Trump regime fueled by Christian nationalism is offering. I think that's the better path forward.
- [81:51]
April
Absolutely. So thanks everyone for listening to this episode or watching. If you haven't, please like the video. It helps us out. Subscribe if you haven't. If you're listening on podcasts, leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. It really does help push this out there because I think the more and more people can become aware of what's actually happening, you know, the easier it'll be to fight it because we know what we're fighting.
- [82:15]
Tim
Thanks for listening. What a privilege. This is so much fun. So, all right, we'll see you all on Thursday. See ya.
- [82:20]
April
Bye.
- [82:27]
Tim
Sam.