← The Tim & April Show
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- [00:01]
Tim
This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords and.
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April
A VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it.
- [00:13]
Tim
And they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats.
- [00:19]
April
If your identity is stolen, they'll fix.
- [00:21]
Tim
It, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year make. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off terms apply.
- [00:30]
April
You're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hey.
- [00:48]
Tim
Oh, hi, we're here.
- [00:51]
April
Hi. Hi, we are here.
- [00:53]
Tim
Another deep dive coming your way.
- [00:55]
April
What a day. What a glorious day.
- [00:59]
Tim
Oh, a great, A great movie, might I add. Great movie.
- [01:02]
April
Yeah, there's several of them, actually. I haven't seen the most recent one, Furiosa.
- [01:07]
Tim
It's good. I saw it on the plane. Whenever I travel, I use that as an excuse to catch up on movies that I just don't have time to watch in my normal life. And so I watched it on a plane. It was fantastic. In fact, I recommend people should look up the behind the scenes of Mad Max Fury Road and Fury Road. Melissa. Because the whole story of how long it took to get those movies made is truly, it's just one of those things where it's like, huh, that took over a decade to make. That's a lot of commitment to look.
- [01:33]
April
At, you know, having knowledge in pop culture.
- [01:38]
Tim
I, I like watching very random, like YouTube videos about random things. And one day it was like the true story of Mad Max Fury Road. I'm like, oh, I, I love behind the scenes stuff. So I watched it. Long story short, it took the guy, which is name, is it George Miller? It took him like 10 years to make that movie because of all the roadblocks and obstacles and funding challenges and writing challenges. But ultimately it came out great. It's a fantastic piece of film to watch.
- [02:07]
April
Nice. I mean, Fury Road was, was pretty great. Speaking of Fury Road, what a segment. If you're, if you're listening to this on podcast and are not on YouTube, you are missing out on our graphic that says too fast 2 Corinthians.
- [02:31]
Tim
It is our, our thumbnail guy, Alden. Shout out to him. He is very creative with the thumbnails and sometimes he's almost too creative. I'm like, bro, no one will get this reference. But he dropped that one. And you were like, April, you were like, that's fantastic.
- [02:44]
April
And then I was like, yeah, we actually love this. We have. Please. I was like, please, Tim, we have to do this. I know it's a pun. I know typically for the algorithm, puns are not the best, but I love a good pun. We had to ask 2 Corinthians, because today we are talking about Jerry Falwell Jr. This is kind of. I guess it could be a part two is because last week we talked about Jerry Falwell Senior. But Jerry Falwell junior Stands alone. He is his own man. He's got his own story, and it is a story.
- [03:22]
Tim
He's his own independent, picking himself up by the bootstraps kind of man.
- [03:27]
April
Right. So he is. I don't really know what all he's doing right now. I feel like maybe real estate. I feel like that's what everybody does once they resign from a scandal. But, yeah, he's. He's still married to Becky, his wife. And that will be interesting, you know, based on what we say in this episode. Yeah, yeah. And a lot of the story with him, outside of his endorsement of Trump, which we will get into, is a little he said, she said, because there are conflicting narratives depending on who you talk to. So keep all of that in mind as we.
- [04:01]
Tim
I. I feel like this is. These past two episodes is we're doing like. Like the Falwell legacy.
- [04:07]
April
Yeah.
- [04:07]
Tim
Arguably, I think that the Falwell name is the most influential name in politics that has given us the Moral Majority. Right. I mean, we covered Jerry Falwell Sr. And how influential him and Paul Weyrich were to create the Moral Majority that galvanized white evangelicals that essentially gave us Trump. And Jerry Falwell Jr. Is another key piece in that legacy that gave us Trump. Without. Well, we say without Paula White, there would be no Trump. And I think between Paula White and Jerry Falwell Jr. Trump will not have the kind of support that he had among white Christians in particular.
- [04:43]
April
Well, Apollo White, I think, brought over charismatics and Pentecostals with her influence there and possibly even some people of color because she. She ran in those circles. She had a show on black entertainment like BET sometimes, where Jerry Falwell, I think, brings in, you're more Baptist and you're kind of more not. Not so crazy.
- [05:08]
Tim
Yeah.
- [05:09]
April
Evangelicals.
- [05:10]
Tim
This was back.
- [05:10]
April
And I can say crazy because I was Pentecostal.
- [05:13]
Tim
You're.
- [05:13]
April
Oh, no offense.
- [05:15]
Tim
This goes back to when we had Matthew Taylor back on the show a few weeks ago, and we were talking about, like, his quadrant of Christianity, and he was talking about how the independent charismatic world was always kind of seen as like the fringe of evangelicalism. And, and you have this, like, even this denominational evangelicalism that's kind of proper and prim and like, you know, is. Is institutionalized. And Jerry Falwell Jr. Kind of brings those people.
- [05:39]
April
Yes.
- [05:40]
Tim
Into the foray. Right. I think he's the person who brought the more. Well, I would never be a charismatic because my theology is too proper kind of vibe into the Trump ethos.
- [05:51]
April
Yeah. And I think the fact that he was president of a, you know, pretty respected university, Liberty University. It's a D1 NCAA school. It's. It's accredited, which some. Some Christian colleges are not.
- [06:07]
Tim
Some are not. So.
- [06:08]
April
Yeah. You know, so he, he did kind of bring this more established, respectable side of evangelicalism to the Trump train. But before we get into that, let's do a little bit of background Jon Jerry Falwell Jr. Just some, some quick biography. Yeah, he was.
- [06:28]
Tim
Some need to knows.
- [06:30]
April
Yeah. He was born in 1962. He was the oldest of three children. So he's an older child. And I don't know if you fall and like, believe the like, older child, middle child, younger child narrative.
- [06:43]
Tim
I'm a firstborn to a T. I'm also a firstborn.
- [06:47]
April
Yeah. So, you know, keep that in mind. So he's the oldest of three children. His sister is the middle child, Jenny. We don't really hear much about her. And then Jonathan is the youngest. And Jonathan is the current chancellor at Liberty University, and he took over the. His dad's church, Thomas Road Baptist Church. So he's still the pastor there. It was interesting. So I read. I read an interview that Jerry Jr. Did with Vanity Fair, and he was very candid about his upbringing with. Obviously, his dad is Jerry Falwell.
- [07:27]
Tim
Right.
- [07:27]
April
Jerry Falwell Senior. You know, and I could imagine what it would be like to grow up with Jerry Falwell being your dad, because I grew up. My dad was a Pentecostal preacher. And there's our. You know, I don't know how to explain. I feel like unless you've been a preacher's kid, it's, it's. You don't fully understand. Like, there's just a lot of pressure that is built into being born to parents who are well respected in a religious setting.
- [07:56]
Tim
Yeah.
- [07:57]
April
Because then you're also expected to, like, everyone's just looking at you. It's easy for people to start rumors about you. I remember when I was in college, I was commuting on Sunday mornings to go to My dad's church, because I was being supportive of my dad's church. But I. But my college was, like, an hour and a half away, so I would wake up at, like, the crack of dawn to drive an hour and a half so that I could help my. Set up my dad's church, because it was a. We were just renting a place we had to set up and tear down every Sunday. I remember there was a lady on our worship team who literally started a rumor that the reason I was so tired on Sunday mornings is because I was out partying.
- [08:37]
Tim
Oh, my God.
- [08:38]
April
Late at night on Saturdays, which I was not, but I was tired anyway. So, like, you just have to deal with that kind of stuff. And, like, I remember my parents. There would be, like, my. My parents were okay with, like, going to the movie theater, but there were certain theaters we would not go to because it was closer to the church. And there were some people in the church that thought going to the movie theater was a sin, and we didn't want them to see us going to the movie theater. So there were things that I could and could not do. Not necessarily because my parents thought it was wrong, but because of what other people would think.
- [09:12]
Tim
Yep.
- [09:12]
April
About it.
- [09:13]
Tim
Sarah, my partner, grew up. Grew up pk and again, I don't have that experience, but the stories that she shares are very similar to what. What you. What you said. And there are moments where she's like, I think I feel this way because growing. Growing up at pk, I had that feeling, and now I'm feeling it again in our marriage now over something completely unrelated to that, of course, you know, so there definitely is something that kind of carries over into life beyond just being a pastor's kid, I think.
- [09:39]
April
Yeah. I think I. I think I also tend to care what people think about me a little more maybe, than normal. I mean, a lot of that could also just be, like, being female in evangelicalism.
- [09:49]
Tim
Sure.
- [09:49]
April
And.
- [09:49]
Tim
Yeah.
- [09:50]
April
But anyway, so I just think it's important to know that Jerry Falwell Jr. Grew up with Jerry Falwell Sr. Being his dad. And Jerry Falwell, as we. As we discussed last week, his. His public Persona came across very harsh and judgmental. But when you hear. To be clear, because it was. When you hear Jerry talk about his dad, he actually talks about his mom, Macil, being the more strict, judgmental one, and that his dad was actually pretty relaxed when it came to, you know, Jerry Jr. Getting in trouble, because it does sound like he was a bit of a rebel. He said his dad was not as strict as his mom. He claims that he became a true Christian in college when he went to Liberty. So Junior went to Liberty. He majored in religious studies because he wanted to decide what he really believed. And then in 1984, he went to law school at the University of Virginia. And he talks about it as kind of wanting to go into a more secular environment because he wanted to get away from the fundamental evangelical world. And it does seem like he just wasn't a fan of a lot of the rules. And Liberty University is known for having quite a few rules, as most Christian colleges are, you know, and he. He talked about how when he went to University of Virginia, it was his first time away from home, and he did not join a church while he was there.
- [11:16]
Tim
Oh, Cardinalson.
- [11:19]
April
I know. And if religion ever came up, he would be quick to say, that's not me. That's my dad.
- [11:24]
Tim
Interesting.
- [11:26]
April
Yeah, it is interesting. So during his second year of law school, he would. Went home to visit his family, and that's when he first meets Becky. Or not when he first meets Becky, but when they started, like, kind of. He met her when she was a lot younger, but went back, and that's when they kind of developed a romance. He was 23, and she was 18 at the time. And he says, interestingly, that his mom did not approve of Becky's family. Now, this is according to Jerry Jr. She. He says that his mom thought they were. I think, said something around them being kind of like hillbillies from North Carolina.
- [12:02]
Tim
Like, hips almost stuff.
- [12:04]
April
Yeah, but his dad approved and loved Becky. And. And then he noted, too, that later his mom approved of Becky. Okay.
- [12:11]
C
All right.
- [12:12]
April
He claimed that his dad was only. Only puritanical because of his mom and that his dad didn't actually judge people.
- [12:20]
Tim
Well, I mean, that. That's. I mean, that's not super true, considering his dad preached sermons about how Brown v. Board of Education was a mistake. I mean, talk about judging people. He was on the record talking about MLK Jr and now he doesn't deserve a holiday. I don't know. I mean, I'm. Maybe there is this, like, duality of, like, this public Persona that Jerry Falwell represented. And then behind the scenes, he was much more kind and loving to his own family and, you know, and his son. That. That. That's very possible. But, I mean, dude, the guy's on the record saying some crazy stuff about the gays and the aclu, and. And no matter what, either way, his words had a lot of impact. That hurt A lot of people. There's just no way around that.
- [12:59]
April
Yeah. And it. Yeah, because, I mean, and I think last week, too, I said Jerry Falwell senior seemed to be like a true believer. Like, he actually believed what he preached because he. He didn't have any scandals. He seemed to, you know, practice what he preached as well, and his message relatively stayed consistent his entire, you know, ministry career. So it's interesting seeing this side of what Jerry Jr says growing up in that house where his dad seemed to be more relaxed behind closed doors.
- [13:30]
Tim
Just how relaxed was he? April, according to Jerry.
- [13:34]
April
Well, so you actually brought up that Jerry Falwell senior would drink a lot of nyquil because he was against alcohol, because drinking alcohol was a sin, but he'd drink nyquil to kind of get that same effect. And while I was researching, Jerry Jr. Realized that actually came from a quote from Jerry Jr. In this. This article, in this Vanity Fair interview.
- [13:56]
Tim
Vindication.
- [13:57]
April
He said. He said, quote, sometimes he would drink a whole bottle of nyquil. He called it Baptist wine.
- [14:05]
Tim
Wow.
- [14:05]
April
So, I don't know. I mean, this is coming from the Sun.
- [14:08]
Tim
I don't know why you would lie about that. I mean, it's. You know, you never know. But I. That. Listen, I'll put it this way. That would fall in line with the perspective from a lot of us that. That are a lot of our religious leaders that we knew were. Were not the same people on and off the platform. Right. I think that there is this sense of, like, I am this person representing these values behind the scenes. I actually don't believe many of them, but they're lucrative, and they give me power, and they give me, you know, a platform I can say this stuff on. I mean, we see this all the time with. With Republicans and their sex scandals. You know, what was it? The Moms of Liberty? You know, people who were talking about how. How the queers were grooming kids, is engaging in threesomes with her husband, another woman. You know, it's like there's. There is this major dichotomy often between what people will say on stage and say publicly and the values that they'll fight for versus their own personal, you know, life behind the. Behind closed doors.
- [15:02]
April
Well, and Jerry Falwell senior, to me, the fact that if. If. If what his son said is true, the fact that he would drink nyquil to get the feeling of what alcohol would do instead of just drinking alcohol.
- [15:16]
Tim
Right.
- [15:16]
April
Shows to me that he was still trying to fought, like, he still believed those rules, but. But he was finding ways around it, which is just like wild to me. Like, I, it would be just. I feel like it would just be way better for everybody if you just drank the wine, you know, drink the wine, drink the NyQuil.
- [15:32]
Tim
It's like when, when people say I was a virgin when I got married. And then I, I say, me too, technically, you know, like, like you try and find all these loopholes. Right?
- [15:42]
April
Call me out, Tim.
- [15:43]
Tim
But not, not, not you. No, I'm saying, I'm calling out me. Like, I'm just saying. Yeah, we do this all the time, right?
- [15:49]
April
Where it's like, well, like, I mean, yes, I'm technically a virgin. I signed my purity pledge card. But the Bible doesn't say anything about hand stuff.
- [15:57]
Tim
Right? Exactly, exactly, exactly. So Baptist wine, you know, that's all.
- [16:02]
April
That'S all it is. Yeah.
- [16:04]
Tim
The Bible talks about alcohol, but it does not say do not be drunk via NyQuil. So it's okay.
- [16:11]
April
Yeah. It does sound like, according to Jerry Jr. That him and his dad were pretty close. And he had, he did not get along as well with his mom because his mom was the more rule follower and the enforcer, it seemed like. And he's acted like she wasn't a big fan of the fame and the fancy lifestyle that came with, you know, being so well known as Jerry Falwell, her husband was that she just kind of wanted a quiet small town preacher's life. But what did not get that because his, you know, Jerry Falwell became such a force in this world. So in 1988 though, Liberty was on the brink of bankruptcy because. And Jerry Falwell Jr. Brought in Jerry Falwell Jr. To kind of help pull this along. And so he started working for Liberty. He said during this time he would eat alone in a Wendy's parking lot listening to Rush Limbaugh. And he says that it's, it's one of the main reasons that he became conservative was listening to Rush Limbaugh.
- [17:20]
Tim
You know, we got to do at some point a deep dive on Rush Limbaugh because people don't understand how he was the foundation for the right wing media sphere that we are experiencing today. I mean, I grew up on Rush. On Rush Limbaugh too. I listened to him almost every day working with my dad in construction. And like, this dude is pivotal for how we got to the point that we're at. So I have to mark that down somewhere. But deep dive on Rush Limbaugh is needed at some point on this show.
- [17:45]
April
Yeah, put a pin in it.
- [17:47]
Tim
But a pin in it.
- [17:48]
April
Yeah. So in 2007, Jerry Falwell Senior dies. And so Jerry Junior was in the succession plan. So he becomes the chancellor and the president of Liberty University. And. And they credit him for rescuing Liberty from bankruptcy and transform the nonprofit university into a financial powerhouse with more than a hundred thousand students and a $1.7 billion endowment. Because he was more of a businessman. And he. He's always said that he's. That's kind of more. His lane is the. He wants to run the. The business side of things.
- [18:27]
Tim
His brother is. His brother is the pastor. Right. He's the business guy. That's kind of the dynamic here. Yeah.
- [18:34]
April
So, Jerry, in 2015. Now, this is when we're going to scooch into Donald Trump territory.
- [18:44]
Tim
Yeah.
- [18:45]
April
In 2015, five days before the Iowa caucus, Jerry Falwell Jr. Shocked everybody by being the first major evangelical leader to endorse Donald Trump. And I remember leading up to that, people assumed he was going to endorse Ted Cruz, because Ted Cruz at that point was kind of. People were saying, this is. This seems the obvious evangelical choice.
- [19:12]
Tim
This is important. I think that we forget how many, like evangelical Christians and Baptists were on the 2015. What was it, the primaries? There were so many candidates that were way more Christian than. Than Donald Trump. So, yes, it was. I remember it clearly thinking, wait, the guy who's running Liberty University doesn't endorse Ted Cruz, even Marco Rubio, John Kasich, but goes after Trump? Like, that makes no sense to me. It was. It was pretty shocking.
- [19:46]
April
Yeah, no, it was shocking. I remember being shocked by it, too, because even though Jerry Falwell Jr. We keep saying Junior, even though he does not, has never claimed to be this religious leader. He. He is Jerry Falwell Jr. Like, you cannot hear his name without thinking about Jerry Falwell and the weight.
- [20:08]
Tim
Right.
- [20:09]
April
Of what that name means. Like, I mean, his dad, whether he likes it or not, had a. Had a very religious and Christian nationalist legacy. Well, and his dad was one of the main people to call out Bill Clinton for his scandals and affairs. And was. And Jerry Falwell. I remember I grew up. He was a. Jerry Falwell senior was a household name in my house growing up. I remember seeing him on TV all the time, and he would talk about how character mattered and you needed someone righteous in the White House. So to have Jerry Falwell senior's own son, who shares the same name, suddenly come out and endorse Donald Trump, who has never been lacking in scandals and. And literally has Had a reputation of being a playboy and an adulterer, and this was before he ever even ran. Like, being an immoral person was never something that Donald Trump was known for. And for him to come out and endorse, having someone with the name Jerry Falwell endorse Donald Trump.
- [21:13]
Tim
Yeah.
- [21:14]
April
Was huge.
- [21:15]
Tim
President of Liberty University endorses Trump. I'm sorry, what?
- [21:20]
April
Yeah.
- [21:20]
Tim
The biggest Christian college in the. In the world. That guy, the guy who is supposed to endorse and support these Christian values that they hold students to. Endorsing a guy who is saying things that sound completely anti that. Absolutely. I have a clip of him on Anderson Cooper if you want to play that, so people can kind of hear just how he would justify it, because obviously, a lot of people in the media were also bewildered by this decision.
- [21:44]
April
Yeah. Jerry, thanks so much for being with us. When you hear Donald Trump refer to Elizabeth Warren as Pocahontas, when he calls Secretary Clinton a lowlife, do you take issue with that at all? Is that a Christian thing to do, in your opinion?
- [21:59]
C
Well, I'm president of a university. We have a Division 1 football team, and we have lots of players who might have relatives or friends on opposing teams. But when the whistle blows, it's every man for himself. And I think politics is the same way. And I just. I think it's the way the game is played. It's a blood sport. And I wouldn't expect anything less from somebody who wants to win the presidency.
- [22:25]
April
I know you said people should stop trying to choose political leaders who they believe are the most godly because only God knows people's hearts. What about judging candidates according to their actions? I mean, isn't that really the only way to assess who a candidate is, what they actually believe in?
- [22:42]
C
No, I think the way to assess a candidate is their experience. I think with Donald Trump, his experience and success in the private sector is one of the reasons I chose to support him. Because I've been president. Before that, I was general counsel of a university that was in financial trouble in the 80s and 90s, and we brought in the best experts to make it the most prosperous university in the country now. One of the most prosperous, I should say. And it's. I think the country needs the same type of. I think the country needs a doctor who has the cure for America's ills. I think we're at a turning point. I think we could lose our country if we don't choose the right president this time. And I think Donald Trump is the man for this point. In history.
- [23:28]
April
I wonder what your, you worked obviously closely with your dad, who founded the Moral Majority. What do you think he would have made of Donald Trump?
- [23:37]
C
I think he was roundly criticized for supporting Ronald Reagan over Jimmy Carter, who was a Southern Baptist Sunday school teacher. Ronald Reagan was a Hollywood actor who had been divorced, remarried. Everybody said my dad was an apostate for supporting somebody like Reagan. But Reagan turned out to be a much better president for issues that Christians were concerned about than Jimmy Carter was. And I think you have to look past, you can't be. We're not electing a pastor in chief. We're electing a commander in chief. And we, we can't expect our, our commander in chief to have the same qualities as our pastors. And I think, well, there you go.
- [24:18]
Tim
I mean, I think that's, that, that's pretty good for now. But this is, of course, a huge turnaround compared to what, you know, Franklin Graham or, yeah, Franklin Graham said about Bill Clinton. Right. When Bill Clinton had the affair in the White House. And our, you know, April, you and I would argue it wasn't even an affair because how could it be consensual with that power dynamic at play? But when that happened, Franklin Graham rightfully said that how can we trust someone to lead the nation when they do this kind of behavior in private? And that private actions need to match public attitude and public, you know, integrity. And to see within, what, two decades, less than that, a complete turnaround to. Well, listen, we, we just seen a commander in chief, not a pastor in chief, and whoever's most qualified to justify Trump's behavior, which of course, this is in 2015, 2016. So we all know what has happened since, how much worse things have gotten. It's really telling.
- [25:12]
April
And I don't know if Jerry Jr. Is the first one to say we're electing a president, not a pastor, but it wouldn't surprise me if this interview and him saying, like his way of justification was the trickle down that gave your everyday church going Christian the justification to vote for Donald Trump. Because I can't tell you, I mean, I heard that countless times in the, the lead up to the 2016 election when I, I was a never Trump. I was a Republican, but I was an outspoken never Trumper. I did not understand how we could vote for him. And that was one of the main things it was we're voting for a president, not a pastor. You know, maybe only tied with. But her emails.
- [25:58]
Tim
Right.
- [25:58]
April
You know, Right.
- [25:59]
Tim
Yes, exactly. I mean, I think it does go to show how influential these leaders really are. I mean, Falwell created that narrative on that interview with Anderson Cooper, and it became what Matthew Taylor calls is a prophetic meme. Right. It's this line that gets spread around evangelicalism as justification for this behavior. Right. So, yeah, it's a good reminder that there really isn't much of a much objective moral foundation for these people. They're always going to look at whatever gives them access to power and control. And Trump, knowing that, really campaigned strongly on that narrative. Right. That, hey, as, as, as president, I will make Christianity great again, I will protect Christianity. And it worked, frankly.
- [26:39]
April
Yeah, well. And you heard Jerry Jr. There give his reasons for Donald Trump. You know, he was a real estate developer and a populist, and he kind of gave more practical reasons for voting for him. It's interesting, in that Vanity Fair article that read the. The journalist who wrote it said that he wondered if one of the reasons Jerry Jr. Endorsed Trump, too, was just to continue his rebellion against evangelical fundamentalism and rules. And there's a piece of me that's like, I mean, maybe, maybe still got that rebellious PK in there. I don't know. So I don't know when we want to get to the scandal, because there's a scandal that's going on behind the scenes during all of this. But before we get to that, I do want to show. And so Jerry told Fox News in December of 2015, and this is wild to me, quote, trump reminds me so much of my father. In my opinion, Donald Trump lives a life of loving and helping others, as Jesus taught.
- [27:47]
Tim
Wow.
- [27:47]
April
And that. That was what he said at Liberty University as he was introducing Trump not long before the Iowa caucuses in 2015.
- [27:56]
Tim
So shocking.
- [27:58]
April
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then in the Access Hollywood tape came out in October of 2016. I don't know if you remember that. How can I forget Jerry? Jerry told a radio interview her in, in response to this quote, we're never going to have a perfect candidate unless Jesus Christ is on the ballot. Which further gave cover for evangelicals to excuse Trump's absolutely immoral behavior. I mean, I don't. I remember when that Access Hollywood tape came out, I thought, for sure, for sure, that's it. Christian now. There's no way. There's no way, no way.
- [28:47]
Tim
When the tape came out, I thought, this is it. I got giddy for a minute. Maybe we'll do a third party. Maybe evangelicals are going to think about, you know, actually doing something completely different. The fact that, that, you know, it did nothing to, to impact support. I mean, Jerry also said when this came out, he said, I think this whole videotape thing was planned. I think it was timed. I think it might have even been a conspiracy among the establishment, Republic known about it for weeks, who tried to time it to do the maximum damage to Donald Trump. So the spin cycle comes out. This is an attack. I mean, it very much is Trump, isn't it? Isn't this how Trump responds to things like this? Oh, it's someone else's fault. It's the media, it's the establishment, it's the deep state. And we see how these seeds are being planted early on with that kind of rhetoric. Again, no accountability. No, it's all. It's so weird hearing conservatives talk about account, about personal responsibility and not, not being a victim and taking ownership over your life and taking responsibility for your actions. And then when Trump had. Does all this stuff, including this leaked Hollywood access tape. Oh, I think it was someone else. It was just timed to smear him. It wasn't really his fault. He didn't really mean it. It was just locker room talk. We need a commander in chief, not a pastor in chief. Suddenly there's no responsibility taken. There's no accountability. Suddenly he is victim. A right. It's fascinating to watch the machine get into action to maintain the person that, that, that, that, that they want to be elected. And yeah, I mean, I'll never forget when that tape came out and hearing it and then being absolutely shell shocked that people who raised me in Sunday school were telling me I was crazy and a liberal. Not even. I didn't endorse Hillary. I was, I voted third party in that election. I was just saying, how can we support Trump? Somehow that made me a flaming liberal automatically. Yet. Yet if me and my girlfriend were caught alone in a room doing nothing, that could have impacted my ability to serve on the worship team at church. That's how strict my standards were for sexual purity. And yet this guy can literally brag about grabbing women, and he's, he's the commander in chief that we have to vote for. Give me a break. It's wild.
- [30:56]
April
I think it's, I think this would be a good time to also mention that in 2021, Liberty University, there were a, There were a group of survivors of sexual assault who filed a law, sent a lawsuit against Liberty saying that it ignored reports while enforcing a code of contact known as the Liberty Way. And then in 2024, the federal government, under the Biden administration, penalized liberty $16 million for creating a culture where students were afraid to report sexual violence. And the reason for that being is because when you grow up in purity culture.
- [31:35]
Tim
Yep.
- [31:36]
April
You are taught that you become damaged goods once you have sex. Consent does not matter. Like you. You're never taught the importance of consent. You're never taught about choice. It's just once you have sex, you are then damaged goods. And so that created this culture of. And it's not just Liberty University. This exists in places that are very steeped in purity culture, too. Where women won't come forward when they are assaulted or whoever. Whoever it is won't come forward when they're assaulted because it's. That shows as a stain on them. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You. You would get in trouble because someone assaulted you or essayed you like that. Like you're both equal parties because it takes two, regardless of whether or not you chose that. So you. You also are just enforcing a environment that gives cover for abusers a hundred percent. So that's just an interesting tidbit to know. Like, behind the scenes, that was the culture that was happening at Liberty University. While he's going on the record defending a man for bragging about assaulting women.
- [32:49]
Tim
Mm.
- [32:58]
April
Hello, this is Terry from Wasilla, Alaska.
- [33:00]
Tim
I started supporting T and E and.
- [33:02]
April
Project Amplify as it gives me hope. I grew up attending a small evangelical church in Saskatchewan, a church that my relatives had founded in 1914. This was the 70s, and aside from.
- [33:13]
Tim
The kooky end times teaching about the.
- [33:15]
April
Soviet Union, it was still a church of love. I married and moved to the US in the late 80s and. And became exposed to a very different church. I floundered and finally left for the Episcopalians in 2007.
- [33:28]
Tim
While I love the Episcopal Church, I.
- [33:30]
April
Grieve for the church in my youth. Finding tiny, I can once again find fellowship with the church of my tradition and hope for the future. Thank you, TI and E. So, okay, I do think.
- [33:46]
Tim
Speaking of purity culture.
- [33:48]
April
Speaking of purity culture, another thing that is happening in the background of this, which I guess that happened years before 2012.
- [33:59]
Tim
2014. Ish. I think something like that to your stint.
- [34:02]
April
Okay. So the Times reports that the Trump and Falwell's relationship dates back to September of 2012, when Trump gives a speech at Liberty. So that's like initial introduction.
- [34:15]
Tim
Yep.
- [34:17]
April
So, and this. Okay. This story is a little bit he said, she said, because there are. There are opposing narratives depending on who you ask. And there's a whole documentary called God Forbid on Hulu that goes into the details of this, this scandal. And it is a scandal.
- [34:36]
Tim
And there's also a whole podcast on it too. There's many different places detailing all the, all the details. Yeah.
- [34:42]
April
Yes. So. So basically, a former Miami pool boy named Giancarlo Granda, or Granda, has claimed that he had almost seven year affair with Becky Falwell. So Jerry Falwell Jr's wife. Now, Giancarlo says that Jerry was aware of it the whole time and he claims that sometimes would even watch.
- [35:06]
Tim
Yep.
- [35:06]
April
Jerry and Becky maintained that's not true. And it was just Becky having an affair and that Jerry didn't know about it and became aware of it like after the. Like outside, like was not involved, was not a fan. So those are the, the competing narratives. But they did go into business together at one point by buying. I don't. What did they buy? Some real estate.
- [35:30]
Tim
Yeah, they bought a youth hostel or it was a hostel in Miami, which ironically would host parties for queer people as well. So it was kind of ironic that the president of the Liberty University was investing in such a place of debauchery. I mean, according to him. Right. This guy is publicly saying how all these issues in America are the problem, why Donald Trump has to come in and fix it. But meanwhile, he's investing in a property with Giancarlo, at least allegedly, you know, that, that would host parties that, you know, I'll just say we're not part of the Liberty way. We'll just put it that way.
- [36:04]
April
Not in the code of conduct.
- [36:06]
Tim
Right, Right.
- [36:08]
April
So, yeah. And so then, so fault. Jerry claims that Granda kind of almost like extorted his, his investment into these, this real estate thing as a way to be quiet about the affair.
- [36:25]
Tim
Right.
- [36:25]
April
That's the. Yeah. Alleged he said, she said situation. But in 2015. So the same year that Jerry Jr. Endorses Donald Trump. Just so we are on the same timeline. Yeah. In 2015, they get sued by two men who were involved in this real estate situation. And then I think they claimed they had some racy photos.
- [36:57]
Tim
Yes.
- [36:58]
April
Of Becky, of Becky that they were going to.
- [37:01]
Tim
I don't know, they were going to release.
- [37:03]
April
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:04]
Tim
Jerry.
- [37:04]
April
Jerry and Becky were worried about these going public, so they called Michael Cohen. And just a refresher on who that is. He was Donald Trump's lawyer and a lot of people would call him Donald Trump's fixer. Like he made problems go away.
- [37:23]
Tim
Yep.
- [37:24]
April
So they involve Michael Cohen because they want to get these pictures to go away. And in Michael Cohen's own memoir book, he writes about this. Like, he does not explicitly say that him getting rid of the photos is why Jerry endorsed Trump.
- [37:45]
Tim
Right.
- [37:46]
April
So it's not explicit, but he does say, in. In good time, I would call in this favor, not for me, but for the boss at a crucial moment on his journey to the presidency.
- [37:58]
Tim
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, just to recap this kind of succinctly. Right. The. The allegation is that Jerry Falwell and his wife Becky had an. We'll say an alternate sexual lifestyle at times, and there was a pool boy involved where the pool boy and Becky allegedly would have sex and Jerry would allegedly watch. And that was going on for a long time, and they kind of got intermingled and they got into investments together and all this other stuff. And again, there are other documentaries that go into all the details that you can look into. That's not really what the focuses of this piece. And. And through a lawsuit, it turns out that there was some racy photos of Becky that were being threatened to come out. And they call Trump's fixer, Michael Cohen, who made those photos go away. And Cohen says, I would later call in a favor, though, for what I did for them. And it just happens to line up around the time that, you know, Cohen's client, Trump, decides to run for president. And, oh, what do you know, the president of the largest Christian university in America, maybe even in the world, with tons of political power and financial power, endorses, not the logical choice according to even his own values or the college's values, but endorses a man who makes absolutely no sense. Hmm. I wonder. Allegedly. This is all alleged. To be clear, I'm not making any emphatic accusations. I'm just saying.
- [39:25]
April
Yeah.
- [39:26]
Tim
You know, there. It feels like one of those where there's smoke, there's fire kind of things, where it's like, can I approve it? No. Is it alleged? Yes. Is it highly sus. Absolutely. And to be, I want to mention, suspicious. And I wanted to mention this briefly, April. You know, we are not here to judge Jerry fall on Becky's bedroom lifestyle choices. You know, if adults are involved, it's consensual. It is what it is. What makes it so frustrating is the hypocrisy of what these people advocate for. The. The politicians that they're voting in that want to harm queer people. Right. That want to do things to people who wouldn't line up with, like, the biblical worldview and biblical understanding of sexuality. Meanwhile, Jerry and his wife are allegedly participating in something that has Absolutely no place in the evangelical purity culture psyche. You know, so it's just very. That part's very frustrating to witness.
- [40:19]
April
That part is definitely frustrating to witness. But this. What didn't come out until a few years later. I think it might have been around 2020, because that's. That's when Jerry Falwell Jr resigns from Liberty University in 2020.
- [40:33]
Tim
Can I tell you a funny story?
- [40:35]
April
Yeah.
- [40:35]
Tim
So I shared the. There was a big magazine piece. I forgot what. Which publisher, but came out with this whole story about the pool boy and stuff, and I shared it on my Facebook, and it has tons of receipts in the article. And my former senior pastor commented under it's a sin to gossip. I was like, oh, my God, I don't think I'm gossiping. I think this has, like, a lot of receipts behind it. But, like, yeah, I remember that moment when this all came out and I shared it, and my former senior pastor said I was gossiping for sharing the article. So interesting.
- [41:05]
April
Oh, my gosh. Well, that. That falls in line with how Jerry talks about how he endorsed Donald Trump. Hold on. Did I send you that? That. Do you have that video where he says we all paid the price?
- [41:21]
Tim
I think they do, yeah. It's this one here.
- [41:23]
April
So, Jerry, in typical evangelical fashion. I don't know if that's the one or not. No, no, that's not it.
- [41:29]
Tim
That's not it.
- [41:30]
April
No. I don't know what that one is. You could play that one.
- [41:32]
Tim
This is. Oh, this is Jerry Falwell, Jr. Explaining Trump's appeal for evangelicals. I think it's actually worth listening to.
- [41:39]
April
Okay. Yeah, we can watch it. Jerry Falwell, Jr. Goes on the Record. Good evening, sir.
- [41:46]
C
Good evening. Congratulations on 3,500 shows, Greta. I guess you needed a little practice before you had me. I guess you needed a little practice before you had me on.
- [41:56]
April
I had your father on when I didn't have that practice. So, anyway, nice to have you, sir. All right. Why do you think.
- [42:03]
C
Why is it that Donald Trump is.
- [42:05]
April
Doing so much better with the evangelical vote than Senator Ted Cruz?
- [42:12]
C
Because I think evangelicals are tired of being betrayed. I think Tea Party conservatives are tired of being betrayed by politicians who promised the world over the last few decades. And I think the song from 1971 by the who Won't Get Fooled Again is very pertinent in this situation. I think that's how a lot of evangelicals feel. We don't want to get fooled again, so we're no longer going to go with career Politicians. I'm looking for somebody who has made a payroll. I spent most of my adult life trying to helping my father as general counsel here at Liberty, helping make payroll, trying to find money over the weekend to cover the checks that went out on the Friday before. And so I know what it takes to make a payroll. I know how it feels to have your employees livelihood depend on you coming up with the money. Donald Trump has done that over and over and over. Nobody else on that debate stage has made a payroll. They've been employees, with the exception of maybe Carly Fiorina. But Donald was the one that rose to the top. And it's just, it's just something that I feel strongly. I think this time evangelicals are looking at different issues than they have in the past because they're trying to save the country. I think the security of the country, the economy. Maybe next time they'll be looking at social issues more like they did in the past. But I think this time I heard a very prominent pastor, who is a friend of yours, by the way, Greta, tell me this just this week, that if we don't save the country, then abortion, traditional marriage, all those social issues are going to be a moot point. We've got to save the country first. And I believe, and many evangelicals, a majority of evangelicals believe that Donald Trump is best equipped to save the country.
- [44:00]
Tim
There you go. So, I mean, his whole point was, and this actually kind of lines up with who he is. Right. Because we're going to read later on that he comes out in like I think 2022 or 2020 saying, I was never really a Christian. I was, you know, never really was. Was all in on that side of things. But his argument is that, you know, we have to save the country. So it seems like it was purely pragmatic for a lot of white evangelicals at the time. You know, it was kind of his take on it.
- [44:23]
April
And I do think, I think it's important to note too that Donald Trump, I think from his policies and how he's spoken since 2015, has moved very Right. Because when he first was running in 2016, I mean, I remember they, they sold Maga Pride merch.
- [44:43]
Tim
Yeah.
- [44:44]
April
At one point, you know, and like he's now done. He's so anti queer at this point. I mean, he used to brag about having a gay cabinet member because as to show that he was progressive in that way and to now. Exactly. He's like in this photo here, he's holding up a pride flag that says LGBT for Trump, the T is there.
- [45:08]
Tim
Yep, yep, yep.
- [45:10]
April
So he's definitely, he's moved even further. Right. And I do think, I think there's a little bit of Donald Trump kind of patting the back of Christian nationalists because they gave him so much power and they gave him the White House. I think there's a little tit for.
- [45:26]
Tim
Tat going on, a symbiotic relationship happening. Right. Where it's like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna respond to you, you're gonna respond to me, we're gonna keep kind of snowballing this thing. And yeah, you're right. I think he definitely has moved clearly farther and farther to the right. Or maybe we can say what he's thought has been been less and less filtered over the past few years. So.
- [45:45]
April
Well, and I still, I still don't believe that Donald Trump actually has any, like, beliefs himself. I think he will, he will perpetuate whatever narrative he needs to to protect and promote Donald Trump 100%.
- [45:59]
Tim
I mean, that, that, that's all he believes emphatically is, is him, himself and I are the most important people on the earth.
- [46:05]
April
We need to play the 2 Corinthians clip.
- [46:07]
Tim
Oh, I have that.
- [46:08]
April
Yeah, it's, it's in our, it's in the, the image on the title. So it's, We've got to show it. So this, this was one of Trump's gaffes on Christianity that was so clear that this man does not, has, does not know much about evangelical culture whatsoever. This one. And then the interview he gave, I think it was in Iowa where he said he's never asked God for forgiveness. Were two things where I was like, surely, surely that my fellow Christians are going to know that this man is just conning us.
- [46:42]
Tim
He's a hack.
- [46:45]
April
We're going to protect Christianity.
- [46:48]
Tim
And I can say that I don't have to be politically correct or. But really quick, I just have to say this is, I think 2015, 2016, right before he got elected, and he's saying we have to protect Christianity at the world's largest Christian university. Yeah, like, what is there to protect? You guys are thriving. It's a billion plus dollar institution with thousands of students that is shaping the culture. And they're applauding this narrative that Trump's giving them, which they've heard their whole life, that Christianity is under attack. Like, bro, it's not like in America. It's not. But I just wanted to point that out.
- [47:25]
April
Yeah. This was in January, just for context. This was in January of 2016.
- [47:31]
Tim
Thank you.
- [47:33]
April
And I asked Jerry, and I asked some of the folks because I hear this is a major theme right here, but 2 Corinthians, right? 2 Corinthians, 3, 17. That's the whole ball game.
- [47:44]
Tim
Where the spirit of the Lord, right? Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. And here there is Liberty College, but Liberty University. But I can't believe he said that. I can't believe that he actually twisted God's word, right, and made it about liberty. And people applauded that. And here's why I say that, because I was.
- [48:02]
April
I can believe it.
- [48:03]
Tim
Well, here's what I was taught. That. That. That you don't add to God's word, You don't twist God's word, that God's word is sacred, that it is perfect and that we don't misuse it. We don't take God's name in vain. And to watch this man do that and watch them applaud again demonstrates how. Well, if it's. If it's in our self interest, then it's okay if he does that. Because we all know if that was at the time was a Clinton, if it was Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden who said that, and. And did the same idea to a different group, maybe the ACLU or Planned Parenthood. Oh, my God. He's twisting the scripture. He hates the Bible. But because their guy did it. No, it's all good, man. It's hilarious.
- [48:46]
April
I think that was one of the more shocking things that I saw. The same people that I grew up with who were so fundamentalist, right? They. They were so such rule followers. And I would get in trouble for saying, oh, my gosh. Because it sounded like I. I wanted to say. Because I really wanted to say, oh, my God, which was taking God's name in vain.
- [49:13]
Tim
I couldn't say shoot too close.
- [49:15]
April
Right? Right. And even, like, dang it, like, well, we know what you really want to say. God knows your heart, right? The little. The stupid rules that I had to follow to be a good Christian. And then Donald Trump comes in, and they're like. I mean. And then. And I call it out, and they are like, well, you're being too fundamentalist, right?
- [49:37]
Tim
No one's perfect, April. We're all sinners.
- [49:39]
April
I'm like, what?
- [49:40]
Tim
What? Why wasn't that ever applied to me?
- [49:42]
April
Grace for me.
- [49:44]
Tim
You're right. We are all sinners. Which is why I barely made it to the wedding bed, because I'm a sinner. You know, it's like, you know what? I'm saying, though, it's like, yes. Where was that grace for me as a human being? Oh, God. Right when I was weaponized religion.
- [49:57]
April
When I was. Yeah. When we were actually trying to do good and follow all the right rules and do all of the right things because we wanted to follow God and there. And like, the grace was lacking. And then Donald Trump, who clearly is not trying to follow God at all, and if anything, like, doesn't even do his research. I mean, they're like, what's your favorite Bible version? He's like, oh, they're all great.
- [50:17]
Tim
They're all. Okay. Okay.
- [50:19]
April
Can't even name one.
- [50:22]
Tim
Literally.
- [50:23]
April
Yeah, He.
- [50:24]
Tim
He. He desecrates the Christian tradition. Like, in all seriousness, the man mocks God. Like, he makes a mockery of Christianity all the time. And these people eat it up. They eat it up and they go, we're so back, God. Like, you know, I don't know what happens when we die, but if there is a judgment at the end of all days and God's there, I'm looking forward to that moment because, my gosh, how do you stomach how this all unfolded in the name of the Christian God? This isn't. This isn't because of atheism or because of Buddhism or because of Islam. This is because of white. In particular, white, Protestant, Catholic, and Evangelical Christians saying, this is how God would want our nation to be governed like this by this man. So that's unreal. Anyway.
- [51:14]
April
Yeah.
- [51:14]
Tim
Okay, where are we in the story? Yeah, sorry, we got sidetracked.
- [51:19]
April
We're going to get caught up here. There is an interview that I want to play in a few minutes of Jerry Jr. It's an interview from 2024 where he talks about he. He goes the persecution complex route, because of course, he does. But. So after the. The. The scandal becomes public knowledge, Jerry Falwell resigns from Liberty university in. In 2020. And then shortly after that, Liberty actually launched an investigation into his conduct at the university.
- [51:52]
Tim
We got to show the picture of. Of why he resigned. The infamous picture.
- [51:57]
April
Okay.
- [51:58]
Tim
Yeah, yeah. This was not this. This one. This was the infamous photo.
- [52:03]
April
Was that. Well, when did the. When did the pool boy stuff come out?
- [52:08]
Tim
Well, that was it.
- [52:09]
April
Around the same time.
- [52:10]
Tim
Yeah, he was still around when the pool boy stuff came out. I think. I think he resigned after this. Like, there was all this speculation. This was the nail in the coffin where his team was like, okay, too far. Too far, Jerry. And for those watching, it's him with another woman. Both of their pants are unzipped. And he's holding some glass of. It looks like it could be wine. It's black. The drink. Or very dark. And the caption reads, more vacation shots. Lots of good friends visited us on the yacht. I promise, that's just black water in my glass. It was a prop only. And that was the moment where his. His board was like, yeah, this guy's got to go. Honestly, there are. There was. There was a lot of things happening behind the scenes that. That Falwell was doing. There was a lot of controversy he was making online with some of his statements about COVID Also, there was, again, another alleged rumor that Becky was sleeping with a college student, one of, like, their son's friends. So, like, there was a lot of stuff happening behind the scenes, allegedly. And then I think that when this photo came out, it was the nail in the coffin for. For the board of directors and for the people in charge at Liberty who were like, this guy's got to go.
- [53:13]
April
Well, I will say. NBC News article In August of 2020, the headline says, Jerry Falwell Jr resigns as Liberty University president after accusations that he participated in a partner's affair with his wife.
- [53:25]
Tim
Oh, maybe my talent must be messed up. Okay. That must be.
- [53:30]
April
Hold on. Let me figure out. When did that. When did this picture come out? Because I think it might have been after. Hold on. Jerry Jr. Oh, God. You know what? This is August of 2020. So this is around the same time.
- [53:45]
Tim
Yeah. Okay. According to npr, days after Fallout receives criticism for posting a photo online that showed him with his pants unzipped, he went on a definite leave from Liberty University. So it kind of all happened together.
- [53:57]
April
Yeah, I think. And people might have been saying. Because obviously he would have been aware of this happening behind the scenes before it went public. Some people were saying this was kind of him in a way, like destroying himself, you know, like going to a very dark place and just not caring anymore.
- [54:15]
Tim
Yeah. Like, I'm out.
- [54:17]
April
Yeah.
- [54:17]
Tim
Just by the way, I will say, and I remember being on Twitter a lot when I was. When all this was going down. Very little outcry from white evangelical leaders about this. Yeah, very little outcry. They were too busy talking about Drag Queen Story Hour to talk about their own president of Liberty University living a lifestyle that was completely at odds with their own moral teachings, so called, and what they were advocating for the country to be doing. Not really. Not really much from them.
- [54:48]
April
Yeah. And I do think that Jerry at one point made a quote, too, where he was like, I never wanted to be a religious Leader, like, after the fact when this all.
- [54:58]
Tim
Yes. Came out.
- [54:59]
April
You know, and I guess that is fair. You know, he can't help that he has that name. But also when he was endorsing Donald Trump, he was definitely using Christianese language to do so.
- [55:13]
Tim
So this is according to Americans United. March 1, 2022. Falwell tells magazine he rejects father's views of evangelical Christianity. Quote, because of my last name, people think I'm a. I'm a religious person, but I'm not. My goal was to make them realize I was not my dad. So, I mean, he. He comes out after all this right after he endorses Trump, talks about. About values and about, you know, why we need Trump to come in and fix the country after he takes millions of dollars from Liberty University. As the president turns out, never really his thing anyway. He was never really a believer. Guys, it's all good. But the grift worked, right? The grift worked because in evangelicalism, if you say the right beliefs, you're fine. This is how Matt Gaetz is. Can have credible accusations of him sex trafficking minors and still speak at Turning Point USA events. Because he says the right beliefs, he says the right things. I think Falwell saw that. I think Falwell saw that. If he just said the right things, if he endorsed the right people, if he said, you know, the. The right pieces of propaganda and rhetoric, he could do whatever he wanted behind the scenes. He could drink if he wanted to. Him and his wife could allegedly participate in different kinds of sexual activity that would be frowned upon. They could live a life of lavishness. They could use Liberty's personal jet or a private jet as a personal vehicle, which they did many times, like, just say the right things. I'm going to be okay. And it turns out that he never believed all along. And again, white evangelicalism as a whole is never going to be like, wow, where did we go wrong? How did. How did. How did that man become the president of the largest Christian university advocating for a very strict ethic of speech, of language, of sexual orientation, etc. But they're not going to do that.
- [57:00]
April
Yeah. Which in hindsight, makes sense why he was okay endorsing Donald Trump if he's not, you know, as true of a believer as his dad was. Like, I don't know much more sense. Yeah. He hasn't actually come out and say he's not Christian. I would imagine he still identifies that way. But not religious, because there is. There is a difference in this world of being religious and being Christian. And in fact, most evangelicals would say they're not religious because it's not religion. It's about a relationship.
- [57:28]
Tim
Yeah, just.
- [57:29]
April
Just a little tidbits.
- [57:30]
Tim
It's weird. He says nothing in history has done more to turn people away from Christianity than organized religion. The religious elite has got this idea that somehow their sins aren't as bad as everyone else's. That is like, yes, Jerry, exactly like, do you hear. How do you hear yourself?
- [57:45]
April
So close. So close.
- [57:46]
Tim
So close, dude. Yes.
- [57:50]
April
So. So. So he resigns in 2020. Liberty then launches an investigation into his conduct while he was at the university. Jerry then sues the university for defamation, but then he dropped it months later. Then in 2021, Liberty sued Jerry Jr. Arguing that he breached his contract. In 2023, Falwell Jerry Jr. Filed two separate claims, one over his retirement package and then the other against the university for how it used his dad's image. Jerry Falwell Senior. And then during this dispute, Falwell, Jerry and Becky were both banned, barred from entering Liberty University's campus. Then in July of 2024. So last summer, both parties announced that they were dropping their claims. And then Jerry and Becky were allowed to come back on campus. And I think Jerry even spoke at one of their chapels or something. So Jerry. But to this date, Jerry no longer works for Liberty. His brother Jonathan is now the chancellor at Liberty and is still the pastor of Thomas Road Baptist Church, as he's been since his pat. Since his dad passed away. So interesting, though, just recently, like in the month of May of 2025, the news broke that Liberty University paid Falwell $5.5 million to settle their lawsuits. Yeah, and that is in addition to almost 9.7 million he already received as part of his retirement.
- [59:23]
Tim
God, that must be nice. Imagine getting a $9.7 million retirement package.
- [59:29]
April
I know, I know.
- [59:30]
Tim
And they. And they say we deconstructed because it was sexy. And lucrative. No, no. Going into evangelical Christian higher ed seems the lucrative option at this point.
- [59:43]
April
Yeah, but I think. I think to put the cherry on top of this whole thing.
- [59:48]
Tim
Yeah.
- [59:48]
April
Jerry Jr. In November of 2024. So right after the election of Donald Trump or.
- [59:57]
C
Right.
- [59:57]
April
I don't. When was. Let me see. Let me get the exact date on this. This would have been November. Come back. Show me the date. November 7th. So, yeah, like, literally right around the election, he. He does this interview where he talks about he, in hindsight, supporting Donald Trump and. And how he feels about it. So just listen to what he says about it. After all of this has transpired, we.
- [60:25]
C
All paid the price for supporting him. I mean, I, I probably been lied about more in the last four years than or on a smaller scale, of course, Donald Trump, but I've been lied about in ways that are similar to what he's had to endure.
- [60:39]
April
And you attribute that to your support for Donald Trump?
- [60:42]
C
Never. Trump organizations like the Lincoln Project, who are former Republicans who have switched over, like the Liz Cheney type, Mitt Romney, George Bush type who've switched over and they just, they would rather vote for a Democrat than for Donald Trump. When I saw key people in his administration being arrested and put in jail, I knew that my day was coming.
- [61:04]
April
So in a lot of ways, do you feel like supporting Trump was sort of the beginning of your downfall at Liberty University?
- [61:13]
C
There's no question.
- [61:17]
April
So he attributes all the bad things that have happened to him because he supported Donald Trump and then was persecuted. Yeah, because of that, not because he did anything.
- [61:27]
Tim
Well, again, I mean, you know, it's when I think 9.7, $7. Wow. When I think 9.7 million dollar retirement package, I think persecution too. So that makes sense.
- [61:39]
April
Yeah.
- [61:39]
Tim
Poor guy. Poor guy. Woohoo. Boo hoo. You know, again, like where's the accountability.
- [61:45]
April
Lesson is never learned.
- [61:47]
Tim
Right.
- [61:47]
April
He's never learned.
- [61:49]
Tim
He's a victim. He's a victim. He'll preach self reliance. He'll preach pick yourself up by your own bootstraps. He'll help. He'll preach why the big bad government shouldn't help anyone in need because that's the nanny state. And that, you know, the left is a bunch of victim complaining crybabies and here he is. Yep. Not my fault. Just, you know, my supporting Trump was the beginning of the downfall. And you know, watching people lie about me incessantly, it's like, dude, take some responsibility for your actions. Take some responsibility. Ah, frustrating as hell.
- [62:21]
April
Yeah.
- [62:21]
Tim
Yeah.
- [62:22]
April
So anyway, I do think. Yeah. What?
- [62:25]
Tim
Well, I was gonna say he's out of the limelight now mostly. Besides, you know, Poppy right here and there.
- [62:29]
April
He's mostly living privately with Becky and they're still together, you know.
- [62:34]
Tim
That's good.
- [62:34]
C
Yeah.
- [62:34]
Tim
Happy for him.
- [62:35]
April
Yeah, there is.
- [62:38]
Tim
Can I just say, there is a trail of bodies behind Trump. Michael Cohen is in jail. Rudy Giuliani, he might be out now, but he served like three years for.
- [62:49]
April
Definitely went to jail.
- [62:50]
Tim
Yeah, yeah. For fraud and stuff. Rudy Giuliani got disbarred and I still get his emails. He's begging for money every day. You know, Jerry Falwell And a whole other list of people that come alongside Trump and just get thrown to the side the second they're no longer useful. And yet people still come around him and say, that's my guy. Marco Rubio's next. I mean, look at Marco Rubio's trajectory from a couple of years ago. Trump's the biggest con man. This is ridiculous. He shouldn't be trusted to literally sitting in, I guess, the Oval Office, watching Trump berate Ukrainian, Ukraine's president in defense of Putin. And Marco Rubio is just sitting there, stonewall, like, wow, Mark, or Marco, what a. What a trajectory you've been on.
- [63:35]
April
Him slowly losing his soul as he sat there, like, in his eyes.
- [63:39]
Tim
Yeah, yeah. Like, how did I almost. Like, his whole life is flashing in front of his very face, and he's like, how did I get here? How did I get here in this moment? How many. How many little missteps of compromise did I make to end up in this moment right now? Yeah, good question.
- [63:55]
April
Yeah. Well, and I think it's. That's a fair critique that just because you are in the inner circle with Donald Trump does not mean you're not expendable. You are absolutely expendable. The only one who is not in that administration is Donald Trump.
- [64:12]
Tim
Hundred percent. Yeah.
- [64:15]
April
So.
- [64:16]
Tim
Well, now we know. Now we have a more complete picture of the Falwell legacy and its impact on politics. Great job, April. Great research on that. That was awesome.
- [64:23]
April
Yeah, Well, I. And I do think. I mean, Jerry Jr. We need to also emphasize he was the first evangelical leader to endorse Donald Trump. He gave evangelicals permission.
- [64:36]
Tim
Yep.
- [64:36]
April
To support Donald Trump. I. If he doesn't support Donald Trump, I don't know if Trump wins.
- [64:42]
Tim
Yep.
- [64:43]
April
Honestly, like, I think he. He is one of the more responsible people for this rise of Christian nationalism.
- [64:52]
Tim
And him and Paula White man, they were like two sides of the coin just coming together to get both of their sides to endorse the same person. And they created quite the perfect storm.
- [65:03]
April
But it also just shows, too, his dad paved the way. His dad, Jerry Falwell Senior. Like, this goes back decades. Like. Like, Donald Trump was not created in a vacuum. The MAGA movement was not created in a vacuum. Like, there's so many layers. And I think it's important that we understand how this happened historically and currently. And because once you. Once you know a problem and can recognize a problem, then you can start dismantling it.
- [65:29]
Tim
So that's why we're doing these deep dives.
- [65:31]
April
Deep dives. Just learn. Like, how did we get here and.
- [65:34]
Tim
Right.
- [65:34]
April
Yeah.
- [65:35]
Tim
And the reality is it's complicated. And I think that as humans, we want simple answers to complex problems. There's a lot of ingredients here, right? Yes. Paula White. Yes. Jerry Falwell. Yes. Jerry Falwell Jr. There's all these different players that have been not even intentionally working together, but just kind of coalescing around each other in the same cultural space. Right. Tilling the soil and planting seeds that eventually have given us the tree of Trumpism and maga, et cetera. And so these deep dives are designed to help you get a wider view of what's going on. So when you hear things, you know where they're coming from, because not everything comes from the same route. You know, the Seven Mountain Mandate might come from more charismatic spaces, but this, you know, commander in chief, pastor in chief rhetoric or, you know, that. That real pragmatism. Right. Of, like, he's just a good businessman that really comes from this side of things often. And it's good to know where they come from so you can better combat it.
- [66:28]
April
That's right. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of too fast 2 Corinthians.
- [66:35]
Tim
Make sure to like and subscribe to the channel Friends. Talk to y' all later.
- [66:39]
April
Bye.