← The Tim & April Show
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- [00:00]
April
You're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show where we unravel faith, politics and culture.
- [00:18]
Tim
Hi.
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April
Hello everybody. I didn't know you.
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Tim
Yeah, I didn't know you were me.
- [00:24]
April
We planned the whole show. We didn't plan the greeting.
- [00:27]
Tim
Super professional. We take this show incredibly seriously. So, so, so. Hi, April. It's good to see you. How are you?
- [00:34]
April
I'm great. I'm a little sore from going to a theme park with my children.
- [00:39]
Tim
So I've heard.
- [00:40]
April
Not as young as I used to be.
- [00:42]
Tim
No, sir. Well, I don't want to complain as well, but today I was literally at the gym and I did one weight the wrong way and I thought my broke my back snapped in half and now I can't sit straight.
- [00:51]
April
Now you're paying for it.
- [00:52]
Tim
It's great. It's great. Yes. It's wonderful. Oh man. Okay, we have a great episode lined up. This is going to be fantastic. So we are in the middle. Friends, if you're new to the show, welcome. We deep dive every week and we also go live on YouTube every week at Thursday on Thursday at 12 o' clock Eastern. We've been in the middle of a kind of a deep dive on Christian nationalism, trying to give people the background and the understanding of the complexity and multi, multifaceted world that we call Christian nationalism. We've had Matthew Taylor on the show before. We've unpacked people's stories like Paula White and today is another one of those, like, oh, this will be helpful to understand some of the logic of behind the actions that we're seeing when it comes to different policies and different attitudes in politics. So I'm pretty pumped, April, for this one.
- [01:42]
April
Yeah, no, our guest is awesome today, I'm sure. If you haven't heard, Dr. Beth Allison Barr is with us. She is a James Varden Endowed professor of History at Baylor University in Waco, Texas, where she special specializes in medieval history, women's history and church history. She's the author of the USA Today bestseller the Making of Biblical Womanhood, how the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth. Excellent book just btw, fantastic. Her work has been featured by NPR and the New Yorker and she has written for Christianity Today, the Washington Post, the Dallas Morning News, Sojourners, and Baptist News Global. Barr lives in Texas with her husband, a Baptist pastor, and their two children and she just released a new book called Becoming the Pastor's How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman's Path to Ministry, which is also a bestseller and is also Excellent. I've been reading through this, so she's joining us today. Welcome, Beth.
- [02:38]
Tim
Yes, welcome. I feel like the TLDR is that you are awesome and know your stuff, and it's good to have you on the show.
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Beth Allison Barr
Well, thanks. Thanks for having me.
- [02:48]
Tim
Absolutely, man. Yeah. It's an honor, I think. Beth, you and I have talked a couple times on the New Evangelicals before we did a live with Sheila Gregor, I think over a year and a half ago now.
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Beth Allison Barr
We did, yeah.
- [03:00]
Tim
So good times, and it's good to have you back on the Tip of April show as we are all trying to make sense of what on earth is happening in our current cultural and political landscape and how do we make sense of it so we can better really combat it and help people find a better path forward in faith, politics and culture. So it truly is a treat to have you on the show, and I think this all started with April. You. You read an article that Beth wrote, I think in. Was it the Dallas. What was the name of the website that you read?
- [03:30]
April
The Dallas Morning News?
- [03:32]
Tim
Yes. Yes. For.
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April
For you. Non Texan.
- [03:35]
Tim
Yes, yes, that's me. That's not a Texan. I'm so sorry.
- [03:39]
April
Yeah, yeah.
- [03:40]
Beth Allison Barr
No.
- [03:40]
April
Beth, you wrote an op ed in Dallas Morning News about Pete Heth's wife. It was titled Playing the role of Pastor's Wife in the Department of Defense, which I just found fascinating because as we've seen lately, Pete Hegseth's wife, Jennifer has been in headlines because she's attended defense meetings, and she was in that famous signal chat where there were just like, military sensitive information and. And all of that. And I would say most of the world is a little bit appalled by the fact that someone's wife would be getting all of this, you know, being part of the defense team when she's not an elected official by any means or nominated. So. But you. You explained it so well that there's a reason behind this and that if you come from the world, that peak Hegseth is from, this is not surprising. So can you kind of explain a little bit how this mimics the pastor's wife role?
- [04:36]
Beth Allison Barr
Yes, absolutely. So when I first began hearing about Pete Hegseth, I can't say his name, but I think that's probably okay. And his wife, it struck me because, you know, the fact that she was in those signal chats, the fact that she's attending these news briefings with him, and what's also so weird is the way that nobody in the White House, like, seems to have a problem with this and the way that like Fox News does not seem to have a problem with this like this, you know, there's not a lot of concern that she was included on those signal chats. Chats. The expect expectation is sort of like, well she's his wife, of course she's an extension of his job. And that comes, you know, people outside of this world are like shocked by that. They're like, wait, that is not her job. She doesn't have security clearances. She hasn't been trained for it. You know, she has none of the credit. Could talk about his credentials, but that's not what we're talking about these either. But at the same time, she has not been put position yet. She is functioning almost as if she is a co in a co chair with him. And so for me this just looked extremely ordinary coming from the conservative evangelical world in which the pastor's wife is considered to be simply an extension of her husband's job. So it made perfect sense to me, although I still find it deeply disturbing.
- [06:10]
April
So can you explain for those who don't come from that world, what is the role of a pastor's wife? What is expected of her?
- [06:18]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah, so I actually got some hate mail yesterday over this article and I've only gotten a few pieces of hate mail. So it wasn't, you know, it's like not actually exploded nearly as much as others in the past. But I thought interesting language that she used in this because she said all I saw in your article was a wife doing what a good wife is supposed to do, supporting her husband. And I think this is. Lines get blurry because on the one hand there is this expectation that women have had, especially since the 19th century, that their job is to support their husband's career path in some way. And so that is sort of an ordinary expectation of being married, so to speak. But the pastor's wife role has taken this in a different direction, especially since the post World War II era in which the role has become more defined and articulated. And in fact you can read some of the 150 books that I read about pastor's wives and the rules for pastor's wives writing my book. And what we see is that in the post World War II era that the pastor's wife is not just a good spouse who supports her husband. She is called specifically to hold the ladder, in the words of Dorothy Patterson, for her husband to climb and that God has designated her to help advance her husband's career and that is actually her God given calling. And so with Pete Hexseth's wife is that she's not just being a good, supportive wife, she is actually stepping in and helping to maintain his public image, helping to, you know, be aware of what he is doing on the job in inappropriate ways. And one can only think that this is to help him navigate this and to help her be able to maintain his public image. So she is actually doing the work of his job, which is what the pastor's wife is seen to be supposed to do in this, you know, modern.
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April
Evangelical world while being unpaid. Right?
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Beth Allison Barr
Yes. That is a kicker of it, is that it is a job that comes with a great deal of responsibility. It can come with a great deal of authority. I mean, look at Pete Hecseth's wife. She's able to operate in these very top tier levels, but yet it is the paycheck and the job come through her husband. So she is just sort of an auxiliary piece to this. And again, I think what's so frightening about it is how normalized it is. And you even see this in churches, I think, is that the expectation is that the pastor's wife will do all this ministry, will do all of this work, and if she doesn't do it, then it negatively reflects on her husband's job, even though she's not the one in the position.
- [09:32]
Tim
Why do you think, from your research and being really someone who's been, I think, one of the most well spoken and just knowledgeable person on this topic, why do you think so many women. Women fall into it? Like, why do you think that so many of them seem to be okay with this idea, or maybe they're not, but they think it's just God's will. What's your read on that?
- [09:53]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah. So I will tell you that on the most women who I think are in this position really do feel like this is what God has called them to do. This has been the vocabulary that has been used. We can trace the rise of this vocabulary, really, starting with a vengeance in the 1970s and the 80s and then, you know, spiking in the early 2000s, the language around biblical womanhood. And so women are taught that their primary God giving calling is to take care of the home and the family and to support their husbands. So this and to be a godly woman, you always put your husband's career first and that is what God has called you to do. And the pastor's wife becomes this model for it. And so you can think about women in churches who may have some sort of resistance to this or feel called to other roles, but yet they see their highly capable, perhaps very well educated pastor's wife who is seemingly content in this secondary role where she's just supporting her husband's job. And so it gives that message that this is indeed what all women are called to do. I don't think it is a role that comes naturally for most women. And I can say that speaking from the evidence of these books, much of what these books are doing, and I'm talking about the pastor's wife genre books, you can go Google it on Amazon and you can just see the plethora. I also included an appendix in Becoming the Pastor's Wife that lists all of these books. And especially beginning in the 80s and the 90s, the tone of these books is helping women in very difficult positions and, you know, speaking out to them being like, hey, the pastor's wife role is really challenging and it's really hard. So I'm going to give ways to help you navigate it. And these books often talk about the mental anguish that this position calls, it causes women. It talks about, you know, the, the public pressure that is put on these women to maintain their health, to maintain their appearance, to have attractive, successful children and, and that, and how important it is for them to be seen in this way. And so it, in fact, one of the metaphors that's often used is the fishbowl life. That's something you see frequently coming up in these books. And so I think it speaks to how challenging this role is for women. Yet women are still trying to impress upon other women that it is indeed their calling.
- [12:35]
April
Well, in so much of that world. Sorry, Tim, I was like, so much of that world is based on sacrifice anyway. And there, there's like this idea that especially for women, that if you're being a good Christian, you have to be sacrificing. And if your life is easy and you're comfortable, then you're not actually living out that Christian life. So the message is that they're being taught is just reinforcing, like the fact that they're miserable. It's like, yeah, well, that means I'm doing the right thing.
- [13:05]
Beth Allison Barr
Absolutely, absolutely. You know, some of the, the saddest parts that I read in these books where women were saying they were like, look, yes, it's hard, yes, you're going to face horrific criticism that really isn't your fault. But yet at the same time, if you are not thriving in this role, it's because your heart isn't in the right place. And this Is something over and over again, this idea that you're not drawing on Jesus, you're not in the right heart place, and therefore you're not able to thrive in this role. And so it puts that shame on women that, you know, recognition. This is really hard and it's really hard to put away your expectations, what you feel called to do, what you feel, you know, and that is deemed as being selfish and that you are called to put that away. And even the paycheck. In fact, some of the, a couple of the not critical reviews of becoming the pastor's wife, I was actually pretty pleased with the Gospel Coalition Review and World Magazine. I was like, whoa. But one of the things both of the authors mentioned was that, that the pastor's wife role is a noble calling and that. So it doesn't necessarily, it shouldn't necessarily come with a paycheck. Like that shouldn't be your first, your, your first thing shouldn't be like, why am I not getting paid for this? And so, and this again is, you know, enculturating this idea that women, women are called to this sacrificial role that promotes their husband ahead of them and that does not necessarily get any remuneration and that this is okay and this is what we should be doing.
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Tim
I'm curious, is, is, is how we understand the, the modern day pastor's wife based on your book and how we think about it in our experience. Is this a new phenomena in church history or has this been there beginning? Because, you know, I was always taught, right. I grew up in a very reformed kind of culture. So the Bible's clear. This is just what the Bible plainly teaches. This is not new. This is orthodox. But you know, what do you think about that? Like, is this more culture than it is biblical in your perspective? Like, how do you think about, about that term and, and if it's new or not?
- [15:26]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah. For 1500 years of church history, there was no pastor's wife role. There were people married to ministers, but there were not. This type of role in which a woman's occupation or even a man's occupation is subsumed in what her spouse is doing was not part of the church. Now, part of that is also because celibacy was emphasized in the medieval church, but in the early medieval church, we did have. And in the biblical world, in the late antique world, we have both women and men serving in clergy positions. And one of the things that is very rarely mentioned is who their spouses are. This is something that's actually serve in ministry positions because that's their job, not because they're married to somebody who is serving in that job. It is not until the Reformation era. In fact, I state this in the book. The pastor's wife role was born in the Reformation era, but even then it did not have the same type of connotations that it has today. It has grown into this role, which is really a product of 19th and 20th century Western culture, especially as it evolved in the post World War II era in the US South. I can get really specific about where this very particular type of pastor's wife role was born. And it is very much connected to Southern culture in the US that has spilled over. But nonetheless, it has taken on a very unique, very rigid structure that from a historical perspective is fascinating because of how unique it is. But from a personal perspective, the trauma that it has done for women is unimaginable.
- [17:21]
April
That's what I try to remember when I see women who are perpetuating this very patriarchal ideology that I try to hold grace too, because a lot I would say I agree with you that most of them genuinely believe that they're doing what God wants them to do. And, you know, that's why it's so hard. I know it's easier to demonize them and just to say, oh, they're purely evil. You know, there's just, they're keeping women down and all of that. But it is. It's a very exhausting and traumatizing belief system that you don't even fully realize how much it was hurting you until you leave it behind. And I think, yeah, we could all have a little more grace for women in that, but it's really hard to hold those two things together.
- [18:13]
Beth Allison Barr
I think that's why this book has been received a little bit better in more conservative spaces than perhaps the Making of Biblical Womanhood, because I was very sympathetic to the pastor's wife. This is a challenging position. Some women flourish in it. And I'm actually up front. I actually like the pastor's wife ministry role because I like being behind the scenes. I like not having. Being able to change what I'm doing. And I'm also a very servant. Like, I like to help where I can fit in and help. So it actually fits my personality pretty well. And I am vocationally fulfilled in other ways, just put it that way. So I don't mind being behind the scenes and doing what's needed to do. But not all women. And in fact, I would venture to say a significant portion of women who end up as pastor's wives are not gifted in this way, do not feel called in this way. And so it is. And yet they are being told that this is the only way to do it and that if any other way you try is selfish, not glorifying to God and harmful to your husband. And so it's a really, it can be a potentially toxic mix that you know, and women teach it to other women because that was what it was taught to them and also because they know, like say, for example, I'm not going to name women, but we can think of well known female Bible teachers in the conservative evangelical world. And one of the ways that they are able to move forward in the conservative evangelical space and be able to do what they're called to do is by playing by the rules, by staying within the bounds of only teaching other women, staying in the bounds of publishing books that do not threaten complementarian theology, speaking at places where they are designated as only able to speak to other women or clearly designated as being under male authority. 40 and so women who know that that is the way to be able to do what they're called to do will then give that advice to other women, you know, like stay in the bounds. If you stay in the bounds, you can do what you're called, you can flourish. And so I, you know, I, it's what we call in feminist theory speak the patriarchal bargain.
- [20:45]
April
Sex too, that, that don't believe women should be working at all, that their whole entire purpose should be in the homes, raising a family and supporting her husband. So how do those women, like, I feel like there's got to be cognitive dissonance in this world too. There's, there's very strong roles. You know, like I think of Caroline Levitt, right, the Trump's press secretary who, you know, posts photos of her nursing her baby at work to try to, I would imagine, trying to show like, look, I'm a real woman because I'm a mom and doing all that, but she also has a very demanding career at the same time while trying to show herself as a traditional woman, which she is not by standards that she preaches. So how do, how do they live with this cognitive dissonance?
- [21:38]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah, that's a really good question. So I think the example that comes to mind, and this keeps us in the conversation of Pete Hegseth is Nancy and Doug Wilson. And one of the books that I read for the Pastor's Wife book is Nancy Wilson's book. It was one of the most horrific ones that I read and I Walked away from it just thinking, I cannot imagine how many women are being, you know, the trauma that this is inflicting upon women. Of course, one of the things that she teaches in that book is that women should always be sexually available to their husbands. That this is actually part of their God given job. There is no such thing as rape within marriage. I mean, and this is, you know, this being taught, I just can't imagine. It terrifies me thinking about this is in the White House right now and this attitude, but nonetheless. But yet here she is also this, you know, she's publishing books always through Canon Press, but she's publishing books, she's leading workshops, she's well looked up to and respected. And so she is, is a working woman. And actually Doug Wilson's daughters also, I think are both working women doing this. And, and so there has to. I. So I think the way that they funnel this is that what Nancy Wilson is doing, everything is supporting her husband. Everything is supporting Doug Wilson's job and ministry. It's helping to expand it. She's taking care of the women that he within his theology because of the, you know, the Billy Graham rule on steroids. In Doug Wilson's world, he can't do that. And so Nancy Wilson steps in and takes care of that for him. So it isn't her job, it's her husband's job. And in some ways I think maybe his daughters, they're also helping to propel his theology, Doug Wilson's career, Doug Wilson's theology. So everything is still kind of, kind of revolving around the patriarch within this system. And I think that's one of the ways that they help to think about this. You know, I'll give you another example from a book outside of Nancy Wilson's, Doug Wilson's World. And this is from a woman. Oh, I'm trying to remember Lisa McKay. Lisa McKay, you can still wear cute shoes. That was the name of her book I think she published in 2010 or 2015. And, and one of the things that she said, she said, look, you can still have your own career. If you're gifted in other ways, you can still do those things, just as long as it doesn't interfere with your husband's career. So again, this idea, so this is, it's kind of like Dorothy Patterson's hats. Dorothy Patterson wore those hats. And then she was able to speak to audiences that included men and she was able to teach Bible and she said it was because she was always covered by her husband's authority. So I think as long as they can maintain the fiction that they're always covered by their husband's authority or the patriarch's authority or their pastor's authority, then they can do these things. They just have to maintain that fiction.
- [24:58]
Tim
Okay, yeah, this is really helpful. You know, and for those who don't know, we covered this a few weeks ago, But Pete Hegseth attends a church that is under, like, the denominational structure of Doug Wilson. In fact, I actually have a quote from Doug Wilson just to show the audience exactly what he wants when it comes to the right rights of women in America. He says this quote, when women were granted the right to vote, the nation had already accepted that. The lie that a nation is nothing more than a collection of individuals. And so the matter was framed this way. Men as individuals can vote, so why cannot individual women do the same? We were so muddled, we thought we were giving the franchise to women when we were, in fact, taking it away from families. So Doug is someone who would advocate for taking away women's suffra and going back to what he would call like a head of household vote, where essentially the head of the household, always the man, in this case. Right. Determines how the family will vote. And this. This person, and this is Beth, you know, more than most people. That's just the tip of the iceberg for Doug regarding what he's written about sex and about slavery. So we could. We could do a whole different episode on him. But my point is that Pete is under the discipleship of this man because even the church that he attends, that's underneath this network, the lead pastor says this quote, it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor. This is code for, we have an obligation to take over the country and to institute how we understand God's order to be, which in this case, to kind of bring a full circle, is where men lead, women follow. And that's why we're talking about this. Right. Because some people might think, why are you guys talking about the role of a pastor's wife on a channel that covers more politics and culture? Because this is what's happening in real time in our political body. This is the ideology that is believed or that is inhaled by many people with real power now. And here we are.
- [26:53]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah, so this is actually I'm writing an academic article based on my research in the Pastor's Wife books, and it's on rape culture in the pastor's Wife book. And one of the arguments that I'm making is because this literature has been largely overlooked by academics, I think, because it has been sort of siloed off as unserious and not really something that people, you know, it's sort of like the siloing, too, of women's history, that this isn't real politics. But the thing is, is that what many of these books, especially these more conservative books like Nancy Wilson's books teach is that the personal is political, the bedroom is the public, and that what women and that their calls for women to actually change the world through changing their family structure. And so part of this broad call of Christian nationalism includes is built upon the labor of women promoting this household image and being trained to train up the next generation to support male privilege and patriarchy. And so, I mean, in fact, Christian nationalism would be much less successful without the women behind it who are supporting the male leaders. And so I think overlooking this literature that is geared towards women, that trains women in how to maintain these patriarchal structures, teaches women the language to use, how to establish that cognitive dissonance, as April said, between being able to use their own gifts, but yet it's still being part of the goal of supporting their husband, their father, etc. This is, this literature is our. Is training manuals to some extent. Now. I mean, I also, I don't want to say this isn't like Doug. I've read some of Doug Wilson stuff, which really is training manuals. Most of this pastor's wife literature is women really trying to speak to other women to help that. But embedded within a lot of it, especially as we move into the 90s and the 2000s, is this idea that your entire being should be built, should center your husband and your family should center your husband, and that you should teach other women that you are an example for other women in the church to center their husbands as well as to lift up the prestige of the pastor. And so these, these books are invaluable for understanding how Christian nationalism has spread. And. And they're just not out in the water yet of people recognizing the significance of them.
- [29:44]
April
And I think that teaching is subtle sometimes. It's not always as overt as saying you need to do everything your husband says or you're, you know, like. Because I even grew up, I was. I grew up in more egalitarian circles, charismatic. So it wasn't complementarian necessarily, but men were still pretty much always the pastors. I could maybe count on one hand the amount of times I heard a woman actually preach despite us being pro women preachers.
- [30:12]
Beth Allison Barr
Right.
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April
And I remember, like, what, what that teaches, what that taught me as a girl who just grew up in that world of hearing, you know, I was not, you know, with Bill Gothard, but I was shown the umbrella thing too. They're like, this is really what God wants. But, you know, women have rights. And it was. And day I still have a hard time admitting what I actually want or even knowing what I actually want, because my entire life I was trained to only want whatever the man in my life wants because they are, you know, the, the higher level to God and that I couldn't possibly hear from God myself if a man who is in a spiritual authority had like, said something different. And for the longest time, I would, I was a two on the Enneagram.
- [31:01]
Tim
Yeah.
- [31:01]
April
Because I would take a little quiz and I realized I was just answering what I thought I was supposed to be answering when really I'm an eight.
- [31:09]
Tim
You know, you're a challenger. I love that. That's great.
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D
Yeah.
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Beth Allison Barr
No, I, I think it, you know, and I, I think too, is that women are, you know, they want to be godly women. That's really what they're, they're, they're trying to do. They want to raise godly families. They want to, you know, they want to spread the news of Jesus and all of these things. And, and this is the. How they're taught how to do it. And so, you know, I tell people that it's going to take a long time to undo this. It's going to take a long time to undo this. This is not something that is, you know, it's been taught for so many decades, really five decades now. It's going to take a while to untangle it. And at least in the women who lived through it, I actually have a lot of hope for the younger generation because some of them are like, what the heck? And like, I'm not going to be in a church that won't let me teach and just not going. And so, you know, I'm hoping maybe that will, maybe women, not as many women will buy into this moving forward.
- [32:23]
D
Hi, my name is Esme. I'm from Brazil. I started donating to the new evangelicals because I really believe what you all do is very important. I grew up Presbyterian in a progressive family, but a conservative town. And because of that, I always struggled a lot because I grew up and I am a queer woman. And so my relationship with the church was very complicated because a lot of people really don't believe that queer people should be part of their community, that we should accept it. And I grew up with that guilt, with that pain. And so that really pulled me away from the church for a long while. And now I'm kind of like slowly stepping back towards my fate. And it really makes me happy to see there are people like you guys, there are groups like you guys that take on a more accepting and loving and kind approach to religion and that you're trying to get that to become more of a mainstream thing. And I think that that is incredibly valuable to all of us who felt excluded from our own faith.
- [33:49]
Tim
I think it's also something to consider too. Right. Like I remember Harrison Butler's speech, was it a year and a half ago, you know, that kind of went viral where he thanks his wife for giving him his children, essentially. Right. And you know, I thought when we covered it on tne, one point that we had was that, well, it must be nice being a millionaire where you can afford all the help that you're, that you might need to take care of, of whatever it is, you know. And so it almost kind of feels like in, in so many ways a multi level marketing scheme, right. Where like your, your top 5% that have the car and they make, you know, 40 grand a month doing quote, part time work, sell this dream of how life is supposed to be. Only in this case we're adding on the God card, which is a different level, I think, of authority and, and you have these people, Pete, he, and you know, I even think about people like Ali Stucky. Right, right. Yeah. It must be nice to be a millionaire to preach this message where you can afford all the help that you might need off camera. But the average person, especially in today's economy, that's not how it, that's not how it works. And so, and so even on that side of things, just pragmatically, this idea of being the pastor's wife or being the help meet and here's your own, here's your main role in life. It's not tenable on a financial level, on a time level. And just speaking personally, you know, me and my partner, we've been together now for nine years and we have two kids and just the way life worked out. I, I make most of the money right now because of just how my, you know, my t I need and stuff have worked. But you know, we've talked a lot and she and I've said like, you know, we have to get you back to finding yourself because I think for A few years my wife was like, I'm raising these kids consistently. Who am I? Right? And I think that a lot of women, I'm not a woman to be clear, but I've heard this many, you know, over and over that, you know, there's a sense of like they can lose themselves trying to be God's best, which is just to give, give, give, give, and then feel guilty for trying to want to take time for themselves or trying to find a career or try and find some kind of identity beyond their husband or their kids. And I think that can also really mess people up long term.
- [35:48]
Beth Allison Barr
You know, I'll give you a quick example about how this has changed in, in evangelical culture using the pastor's wife role. In the late 1960s, there was a minister conference is one of the things. I don't actually talk about this example in the book, but in 1968, the minister's wives Conference met at Park City's Baptist Church, which April will may recognize in Dallas. A very large Baptist church in Dallas. It's no longer Southern Baptist, but it was at this time. And they had a debate about if the pastor's wife's life was a good life. And actually what they concluded was that it wasn't. And they were like, because, you know, because you have to, you spend all this time doing, doing things for other people and being told that's what you have to do and you're not actually being able to live into your gifts and it's really exhausting. And all of the pastor's wives were like, oh yeah, that was a really good debate. And you know, and they talked about it. And then now in the year 2000, Dorothy Patterson wrote her handbook for Pastor's Wives in which she simply says that women who put themselves first, that women who are not nobly sacrificial in tightening the belts in order to, you know, suffer because it's not a dual income family and they have to live on what the church will give them, that if they're not willing to do that, then they are in their hearts are not following God, that they are not doing what they are supposed to be doing. And so again, it's this, couching this for women in this noble sacrifice. And a lot of what these pastors wives book, a lot of them, even the better ones, they talk about how to live on a really thin budget because pastors don't make very much money. Most of them don't. They talk about how women can still dress and look nice on a very thin budget. There's a lot of stuff in there about weight management, you know, a lot of stuff. You know, one of the 25 Ways to Think thin. That was one of the handouts that.
- [37:48]
Tim
Was given to pastor.
- [37:51]
Beth Allison Barr
You know, and you. You just this amount of pressure that was put on them to maintain this appearance and to live in really difficult circumstances and yet have a joyful spirit. Just. It's incredible to me that we bought this for so long when in the 1960s, ordinary Southern Baptist women were like, what the heck? This actually isn't. And they quote a really famous play that is anti. That essentially is anti patriarchy, in which the husband tells the wife, your job is to be at home with kids. And she's like, no, it's not.
- [38:33]
April
Not.
- [38:34]
Beth Allison Barr
And, you know, and that's actually what they quote in the program, you know, these Southern Baptist pastors, wives. This has been a shift in how we regard the role, and it has fed into the creation of this very conservative culture that has helped produce Christian nationalism. And so if we want to understand the whole picture, we have to understand what has been being taught to women for the last five decades.
- [38:59]
Tim
Decades. Wow.
- [39:00]
April
I've always found it fascinating how you are. We were both taught that men are the heads of the spiritual authority. They're the stronger, you know, human, because women are the weaker vessel. And then at the same time, women have to cover up our shoulders and our midriff and make sure everything is covered so that man doesn't stumble, because really, what controls that man is what's between his legs, and he can't help what happens. And that also falls to the women. So they're these strong men who God chose because they're strong, but also they're super weak and can't handle a bare shoulder. It's like, pick a struggle.
- [39:40]
Tim
Yeah, correct. That's what we're.
- [39:44]
Beth Allison Barr
It doesn't. It doesn't make sense. And the damage that it's done to both men and women, you know, I mean, I. You know, I just think I have two kids. My son grew up a little bit in some of these spaces. My daughter really never remembered these spaces. She's grown up in a completely egalitarian space. She has never personally confronted purity culture. And the amount of confidence that she has is just unreal. And even my son, like, the way that he treats. I'm just like, what the church has lost by creating these artificial expectations for women and men, for limiting women. And I mean, essentially what we have done is we have created an atmosphere that has allowed men like Pete, hegseth like Doug Wilson to flourish and move to the top because they're the only ones that it really works well for. Right? But the bill is sold. Like, I mean, I'm thinking, I got this. I don't know if it was angry. It was somewhat angry. Instagram message from a pastor's wife who was mad about my article also. And she was like, my husband was a pastor. I gave up working so that I could stay home with the kids. We scrounged on a very low paycheck for eight years, you know, essentially, how dare you tell me that it wasn't right for me to do that? And I'm, you know, and I'm like, well, you know, that was a choice that you made, and it is perfectly fine for you to make the choice. The problem is when you say that that is the choice all women should make, and there's a whole lot of women who, even living on a very tight budget, cannot make the choice not to work, and it does not work for them. And so how can we put forward a theology that does not work for people? Because of economics.
- [41:39]
Tim
Yes, exactly.
- [41:39]
April
I do think a lot of what's driving, pushing this ideology, this is just me personally, from living this world. I do think of people double down because in a way, they have to justify how they've been so miserable. Like, well, if I did it and I was miserable, you could be. You should be miserable, too. Find this freedom to do things differently. And it's almost like they have to justify it, because if they don't, then they have to admit, like, oh, I could have done things differently and maybe been easier on myself and had an easier life. Like, I guess it's just hard for people to admit it, that they were wrong.
- [42:18]
Tim
Yeah.
- [42:19]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah, I think so. You know, we face that in academia all the time. It's like, why are we trying to make younger scholars go through the same horrible situation that we went through? Shouldn't we be, like, learning and making this better for everyone? And so I think in some way, I mean, you know, I think that's what we tend. If we had to do it this way, that means other people should have to do it that way. And so it takes work, work to get ourselves out of that mindset.
- [42:45]
Tim
I want to get your thoughts on something that April and I were talking about before we brought you in and started recording. So, obviously, you know, the term evangelical is so big, notoriously, arguably impossible to define. I mean, Kristin Dumas says this in her book Jesus and John Wayne, that it's just A. It's a slippery term, right? And so granted, it is, and it's complicated, and often there's competing narratives and theologies inside of it. Right? So I want to show you this. This is. This is Sean Foyt. I'm sure you know who Sean is. And this is pinned to his. This is pinned. Okay? This is pinned. And for folks who are listening on podcast, it's Sean's tweet. It says, quote, so, Sean, what do you think about doing worship at the Pentagon, at Pete Hegseth today at church? It just keeps getting better and better. And it's a video of Sean and Pete Hegseth and his wife meeting and hanging out and shaking hands and hugging. But here's the thing, right? Because insiders know. Know that Sean Ford's theology and Pete Hegseth's theology really can't coexist ultimately, especially because Doug Wilson, I would argue, is on the way, more extreme end of the Reformed world, for sure. And so, you know, for. For Sean, he might say, look, I'm a charismatic. We believe in the gifts of the spirit and that women can. Can. Can teach. We like Paula White. She's a lead pastor, etc. But Keith would say, say, no, that's unbiblical. Women belong, you know, not in that place. Yet here they are, hugging, shaking hands. Yeah, we're doing great work kind of thing. Rah, rah, rah. As a scholar who studies this stuff so deeply, when you see this video, how do you make sense of it?
- [44:18]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah, it's all about power, you know, it is. I mean, this is what's going on here. These are powerful people who can use the platforms of other powerful people to maintain this government, literally, that they are building and this structure. And then you can also think that in some ways, by Pete Hegseth reaching out to people, because Sean. I mean, he represents a huge population of the evangelical conservative world. And so by him bringing him in, by Pete and Sean coming together, it brings those two worlds together. Um, you know, I mean, this is. This is what Reagan did with the. I don't really want to get into US Politics as much, because that's not. I mean, this type of politics. But I mean, that's what the creation of the religious right was doing. It was joining together different people who thought different theologically, but yet had places that they agreed upon. And here what we are seeing with Sean and Pete is this agreement on Christian nationalism that transcends their ideas about gender. That. Although I. Well, anyway, that transcends. There's ideas about gender that transcends those ideas about Reformed theology. And so they're able to come together on that point. And they have a lot of other points that they would agree upon too, for sure.
- [45:45]
Tim
I, I think, you know that I, I attend Turning Point USA events. I go every year to America Fest to their, their biggest big shebang to cover it. It helps to keep my finger on the pulse. And they have a whole faith arm now called Turning Point USA Faith. It's been going on for a while and I went to their pastor summit a couple years ago and then they banned me from going to it this year. But it is what it is. But, you know, I, I noticed exactly what you just said was, I'm looking at that, at, at the layout of pastors. I'm like, wow, they got the charismatic people here, they got the Reformed people here, they even have a Catholic person here, here. In fact, their last believer summit had Alvy Stuckey, it had Rob McCoy, Megan Bastion was speaking and Doug Wilson. And I'm like, whoa. Like, those people do not agree on a lot of different things, especially Rob McCoy, much more charismatic. They had Jensen Franklin there. But, but they're all willing to put their so called clear biblical beliefs that are, that are core to how they see their Christian faith aside to work for a greater political good right in their mind. Maybe, maybe the best image of this, as I'm thinking about it, is the image I'm sure you saw of William Wolf praying in the White House alongside Al Mohler and then Paul the white, right, all praying over Trump. And I'm like, you know, Al Mohler and William Wolf would say that true Christians do not believe that women can teach or be pastors, yet they're willing to throw that away in order to pray over Trump right next to Paul the White white. That is wild to me. But like you said, it's in the pursuit of power.
- [47:17]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah, I mean, I think that explains a great deal of what's going on. I also think that only some women are allowed into these spaces and allowed to exercise. They have to. So, like, for Paula White, her loyalty to Trump is clearly what is putting her in this place where she's able to be in this place. But I would suspect, and this is just me thinking about the historical narrative is that often women in these places, their position is more precarious than that of men. Like, you know, something goes wrong, they mess up somewhere. You know, Pete Hegseth has messed up so many times and he's still there. I do not think that same Grace would be shown to Paula White or to any of the women who are put in these positions. Their positions are usually always more precarious. So, you know, that may not play out 100%, but that is the evidence of how these situations usually work.
- [48:18]
April
Paula White is an interesting one too, because as Tim was saying, she's in a room with men who don't believe she should have her position.
- [48:27]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah.
- [48:28]
April
And I always, I like, I wonder, like, does she know this? Like, they're not gonna pick you if they get the power that they want? You know, are they just, just. Is she just ignoring it because she gets what she wants right now, or does she just think these men are never actually going to get what they want? I don't know. These, these are the questions I think about when I'm trying to sleep at night.
- [48:48]
Beth Allison Barr
No, it is, you wonder because, you know, I, I do think that. I mean, it's different for women who are in these spaces because they're having to navigate these politics, that some men in the room do not welcome them there. And, and, and so, you know, and how do you do that? And this is something that these men do not have to navigate. They do not have those types of gender politics, which, again, as I said, it makes it more precarious. I don't know if Paula White cares. She may not care. I don't know.
- [49:15]
April
There are money, probably.
- [49:17]
Tim
Yeah.
- [49:19]
Beth Allison Barr
But I would say for most women, that's something. They're always having to be more careful and they're having to navigate those politics a little bit. It better. Yeah.
- [49:32]
April
I think it's interesting too, that women not only have to bear the brunt of whatever mistakes they make, but they also bear the brunt of whatever mistakes their husbands make, Especially if it involves an affair or some kind of, you know, sexual scandal. I mean, I can't even tell you how many pastors I knew that fell from grace and had their big repentance. I'm so sorry. From the pulpit and how many people in the church were saying, well, if his wife put out, he wouldn't have gone elsewhere?
- [49:58]
Tim
100.
- [49:59]
April
I remember hearing that as child and being like, oh, I guess, you know, she should have whatever put out. Because I probably didn't know what that meant, but I knew it was the woman's fault.
- [50:10]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah. No, I think this is part of also this pastor's wife mystique, if you think about, especially in these, more, you know, I don't want to give the impression that all pastors wives are living in this type of situation. It has grown. If you look at the pastor's wife genre, it has grown increasingly conservative in gender roles since, you know, I track this in the 90s and the 2000s. We see a hard shift in the 1980s, and then they become increasingly more conservative in the way they speak about gender roles. Moving up where it really peaks around 2010, which fits exactly with the biblical manhood and womanhood movement. But there are some of these pastor's wife books are really much more about just telling their stories and just telling about the difficult. How difficult things are and trying to exhort other women. And so I say there's different types that we see, but this attitude that women, our whole lives are to revolve around their husbands and this idea even of being sexually available to men or something is something that has grown within these pastor's wife books. And, you know, it's just one other level that they're teaching this type of purity culture and they're living on in these books because these books, you know, are still being published and circulated and passed around.
- [51:41]
April
One thing I really loved about your newest book, becoming the pastor's Wife Shameless Plug Again, was how you talked about gender roles and how in your marriage, your husband. Husband usually does the laundry and you usually mow the lawn. And that was something. When me and my partner, when we got married, our. We had the hardest time fitting into what were gender roles supposed to be. I'm a terrible cook, and I don't like cooking, but I. The first year of our marriage, I melted lids in the oven because I didn't think to take them off, you know, and I, yeah, I over salted so many green beans, like, I was just not good. And I remember I would watch Beecher, my spouse, like, eat it through a grimace, like, why are we doing this to herself? And then every time we'd go to a church marriage conference, those gender roles, and we went to a more progressive church, too. But even then they were saying all men do this and all women do this. And Beecher and I always felt so isolated and weird. Like we're. We're the weird ones out because neither of those roles come naturally for either of us. And I think that's probably true for most people. Like, women are. We're not a. You know, we're all not the same person, and we're not. We don't all have the same interests and same thing with men. And I think, you know, you see this movement today among a lot of men who feel like are having trouble finding a wife. It's because they've been taught the type of wife they're supposed to look for. And most, a lot of young women today are like, screw that. No, I'm not gonna be exactly right. But, you know, but again, they're blaming the women for not being who they are looking for instead of changing what they're looking for.
- [53:20]
Tim
Right.
- [53:21]
April
I don't know.
- [53:21]
Tim
Or they blame feminism for it. You know, something like that.
- [53:24]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, you know, that's because this type of masculinity has been built upon these expectations of what women are supposed to do. And so that type of masculinity cannot flourish unless women do their jobs. And so it's a huge problem. I mean, this is the thing too, that I'm just thinking, I'm watching the Southern Baptist Church. Church. Their convention is next week. So all of this stuff is going to come out, you know, again next week. And I keep, you know, so I'm watching them becoming increasingly rigid in their expectations for women, refusing to deal with the sex abuse scandal, et cetera. Still huge trauma. And then we see, on the other side, we see these increasing studies that women are walking away from these church spaces. In fact, Relevant magazine just had one in May where they were like, yep, this is absolutely true. Women aren't leaving their feet faith, but they are leaving these churches. And I'm just like, I. They're just, you know, they're essentially creating their own destruction because the Southern Baptist Church has only survived because of the work of women. And I mean, the women have financially bailed out the Southern Baptist Convention on more than one occasion. And, and they're destroying all of those, those, all of those female structures within the Southern Baptist Convention and driving women out. And I'm just wondering when they're going to finally wake up and realize that the problem is not the women. The problem is what they are doing to the women.
- [54:56]
Tim
100. I mean, I think it is very telling. And by the way, for folks maybe you don't know, the. The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest conglomerate of like evangelical churches in the US it is the top dog. It's humongous for many, many reasons. They have had a huge sex abuse scandal come out that they were hiding decades of abuse and they are fighting internally with, with taking ownership and, and putting in safeguards for, for the future. At the same time, I was it two years ago or year and a half ago, they voted to kick out Rick Warren's church quickly because he ordained a woman pastor. Like there Are churches. Yeah, there are churches in the, in the SBC that have had real sex abuse cases that are still welcomed in fellowship with the sbc. They're fine. But a pastor, by the way, a massive mega church pastor, ordains one woman as a pastor. He is kicked out and so is his church the following year. Yeah, it's no wonder why women are walking away. Like, what does it tell you? Not safe. We are not safe for you. We don't care about you at all. And we will protect our institution at your expense. Not even a question.
- [56:08]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah. And I think also the financial repercussions of kicking out one of the wealthiest churches within your denomination, you know, that to me too, is just because the thing is that we know that the younger generation, I hate using that, but is less denominationally know, loyal, I suppose they're much more willing to, like, kind of move around and try different things, etc. And so here we have a denomination that really has only survived because of the loyalty during the past, you know, 15, 20 years. And they are chasing away that next generation and not instilling within them that, that generational loyalty. And I'm just like, I don't understand how they think they're going to survive this. You know, it's. It's fascinating to look at them and watch what's going on.
- [57:06]
April
I'm curious because. So this episode will air on the Monday of the week of the SBC conference. Is there anything we should be looking out for at this conference?
- [57:16]
Tim
What's on the docket?
- [57:17]
Beth Allison Barr
I'm actually giving a talk there. We're doing, I'm doing with Baptist Women in Ministry. We're doing a counter event on June 10th, the evening of June 10th. So I'm actually going to be at the Southern Baptist convention on June 10, at least parts of it. And we got the resolutions, the list of resolutions. And resolution number five is pretty much the Project 25 family values campaign, in which trying to encourage women to have more children and trying to encourage that sort of household vote. They don't use the phrase household vote, but trying to create that patriarchal household as being a core aspect of Christian society and including this going after what they call, I don't remember the exact verbiage, but intentionally childless marriages, people who don't want to have kids. And so it's fast. So I would look out for resolution number five. It'll be interesting to see what happens with it. Also the law amendment, which failed last year by a very narrow amount. And for people who don't Know, the law amendment has been being passed for the past two years. And the idea behind and what it is trying to do is to say that Southern Baptist churches cannot have any women in any pastoral positions whatsoever. It's the hardest line approach to. Against female ordination, really, almost anywhere. And. And so they failed to pass it last year, and now they're trying to introduce it again and to expedite it moving forward to try to get it passed. They can't get it passed at this one, but they're trying to get the first round done so they can bring it up again in the winter meeting and get it passed before the next convention.
- [59:09]
April
I feel like I remember seeing William Wolfe lamenting that it didn't pass last year. Year.
- [59:15]
Tim
Don't say his name on this podcast. April, don't you say that name.
- [59:19]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah, yeah, he did. A whole lot of them lamented, but, you know, they also sort of celebrated because the vote was so close. And so they know that they're very close to getting it through. And so I'm curious to see what's going to happen with it moving forward again. But, yeah, so those are the two things that I'm watching out for.
- [59:38]
Tim
I'm not sure if you can read this, Beth. Looks like. Is this what you're talking about here?
- [59:41]
Beth Allison Barr
I cannot because I don't have my glasses on.
- [59:42]
Tim
That's okay.
- [59:43]
April
I carried it either. Beth.
- [59:44]
Tim
One of them says, I. I'm. I apologize. One of them says resolved. This is the. What you said the prop is a proposition. Is that what's called number five that you're talking about here? For the sbc? It says, resolve. Resolution. Thank you. Resolve. That we call for renewal, more renewed moral clarity in public discourse regarding the crisis of declining fertility and for policies that support the bearing and raising of children within intact married families. It also says another one here, resolve solved. That we call on Christians to celebrate and embrace marriage and childbearing, seeing children as blessings rather than burdens and the privilege of raising the next generation and be it further. So there's a bunch here. There's a bunch that I'm looking at.
- [60:22]
Beth Allison Barr
There's a lot of stuff inside of it. So it'll be, you know, so the thing with resolutions is that they don't technically carry any power. You don't have to obey them or not obey them, but what they do is they suggest just the trajectory of the. Of the convention.
- [60:38]
Tim
Right.
- [60:39]
Beth Allison Barr
So if, like, the convention stands up and there's, like, really little debate about this one and everybody just approves it, this is A will be a clear indicator of what the SBC is moving towards. If there is a lot of debate about it and there and it doesn't pass, then that also says something. So anyway, so it'll just be really interesting. I suspect it was, it won't pass and it's, I suspect it'll be amended in some way, but we'll see. I don't know, we'll see what happens.
- [61:09]
Tim
I, I, I. This will be a different conversation for a different day. But I'm just looking at some of these, you know, statements and they just mirror right wing talking points. Like all the way through. They even have a section about fairness and female athletic competition. Like you're the sbc. Like, what is that?
- [61:25]
April
What do you care about?
- [61:26]
Tim
They don't care. They don't care. And these are the same people that are going to vote against livable wages, affordable health care for all. All. Like, that's, you know, Beth, you're not on the show that often, but me and April rant about this almost weekly about how can you call yourself pro life or say that you care about kids and you don't want to fund school lunch programs, you don't want to fund affordable health care. Paid family leave, which we know every other nation that competes with us in the world has. And yet they're like, but we also want a pro family society. Are you got to be joking? It makes no sense.
- [61:55]
April
From the sbc, who's making hoopla about protecting women when they had, what was it, over 700 cases of abuse.
- [62:03]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah, the clergy sex abuse scandal.
- [62:05]
Tim
Yeah, it says right here in the resolved statement, protect children's innocence against sexual predation. Hello, sbc. Maybe start inside your own house first. Like, it is unbelievable. But anyway, like I said, different conversation.
- [62:17]
Beth Allison Barr
For this time, but wow, it'll, it'll be interesting. I think this, I think also though, this puts for the point, you know, I think people overlook the power and the influence of the sbc. It is the largest Protestant denomination. That's not the exact word for it, but nonetheless, within the US it's declined significantly over the past few years, but it is still a monster. And the amount of pies it has its fingers in and that it's influencing is still tremendous. Tremendous. And so it is. You cannot overlook it. You cannot overlook it in regards to gender roles. You cannot overlook it in regards to Christian nationalism. And I think this resolution 5 clearly shows that.
- [63:07]
Tim
Final question for you on my end in April, if you have any as well, feel free. But you know, and again, Beth, I appreciate making time and coming on and sharing your expertise. It's so good and so helpful as we try and unpack and make sense of what is happening in politics and, and where, where is it coming from? Right? And oftentimes one of our critiques when it comes to media in general is that they don't understand the theology or theologies are animating so many of the decisions that we see in this administration. From your expertise, from your vantage point, as someone who studies this stuff so deeply, how concerned are you right now about, about the current direction of our political affairs when it comes to these topics? I mean, you know, and I say this because I, I, you know, I grew up on talk radio, okay. I grew up on Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity. So the sky was always falling, right? Obama was a Marxist and our country was going to end. And so I don't want to sound like that unless it's warranted. And that's why I like asking experts and scholars this question because you're much more grounded in your responses. So the floor is yours.
- [64:03]
Beth Allison Barr
So I, I am an optimist. That's just my nature. It's the way I've always been. I am worried. This is unprecedented, what's happening. It's terrifying in many cases. Even thinking about the household vote. I teach women suffrage and the amount of inroads that have been made to undermining all of the forward moves, progress that women have made since the 60s and the 70s is just terrifying to me. However, at the same time, I am a medieval historian, which means I have a long perspective. I am a social historian. So we can bring in, I'm from the school of annals, which is something that I was taught, which says you always have to look at the longue, Durer. And if we look at the longue, what we see is that these types of regimes can be survived and these types of regimes that we can move forward from this. In some ways, I think what we are seeing here is unfinished business. Unfinished business with the civil rights movement, unfinished business with women's suffrage, with the era never being established. Unfinished business, if you think about the ramifications of the Cold War and all of that sort of thing that has been simmering in the US and just exploded with COVID and with the Black Lives Matters movement and all sorts of things. And so my hope is that maybe the US is really finally starting to wake up to the danger of these types of theologies and systems and how unchristian they are. And that maybe this time when we get through this, we can deal with that and not have unfinished business. So we'll see. But I guardedly hopeful while still terrified.
- [66:10]
April
Yeah, well, I think that's why, you know, we keep fighting while we can and that's that. Where I think I find my hope is that Donald Trump is old. And I don't think there's anyone that could replace him that would have this fervent of a following.
- [66:28]
Beth Allison Barr
And the terror, the terror that he is able to instill. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, actually the thing, I don't know, I'm terrified about what RFK is doing and the attack on higher academics and what's going on with Harvard and watching that, that in some ways that dismantling, I'm just, you know, I'm so. I just hope institutions keep fighting back. And I, you know, my whole family went and we got our COVID vaccine last week, you know, because at least this way if it's gone in the fall, we got it.
- [67:03]
Tim
Ye.
- [67:04]
Beth Allison Barr
So, you know, you just gotta do what you can to move forward 100%.
- [67:09]
April
So you haven't died from the vax yet like they said.
- [67:11]
Tim
Unbelievable. Wild.
- [67:13]
Beth Allison Barr
No, none of us died. We all died.
- [67:15]
Tim
But your DNA suddenly changed.
- [67:18]
Beth Allison Barr
My husband even got his with his shingles shot because we're at that age now where you got to get the shingles vaccine. And he's fine also.
- [67:26]
Tim
I love it.
- [67:26]
April
Wow, look at you.
- [67:27]
Tim
Look at you. Go find the odds.
- [67:30]
Beth Allison Barr
Find the odds. Yeah.
- [67:33]
Tim
Awesome. Well, I mean. April, I have no more questions. Do you have any further questioning for Dr. Beth Alison Barr?
- [67:40]
April
No, I just want to tell everyone to go get her book becoming the pastor's wife. And Beth, you want to tell everyone where they can find you if they want to follow your work online?
- [67:48]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah, they can find me on all social media except for X. I do not go there. I'm most often on Instagram and threads and a little bit on Blue Sky. I also write. Write usually at least once, maybe twice a month on my substack Marginalia, which is where I'm able to speak the most freely. And so that's another place that they can find me.
- [68:12]
Tim
Well, and you also did an amazing podcast series, all the Buried Women with your co host, Savannah. Yeah, that was. I think it topped it hit what number three on. On the charts at some point? Number four. It did, it did.
- [68:22]
Beth Allison Barr
It was crazy. And we found out that it had almost 200,000 downloads now, which is really incredible. So you can also find. Find all the Buried Women too. It's a five part miniseries right? Now it's just a standalone, so. Yeah.
- [68:38]
Tim
Awesome.
- [68:39]
April
Awesome.
- [68:39]
Tim
Well, thank you so much for your time. It means the world. I'm sure we'll talk again. So thank you.
- [68:44]
Beth Allison Barr
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- [68:45]
Tim
Absolutely. Friends, thanks for being here. Make sure to like this video. Subscribe to the channel. We'll talk to you all next time. See ya.
- [68:52]
April
Bye.