← The Tim & April Show
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- [00:01]
April
5:00Am I'm up with a crisp Celsius energy drink running 12 miles today. Grab a green juice, quick change and head to work. Meetings, Workshops One more Celsius. No slowing down. Working late but obviously still meeting the girls for a little dancing. Celsius Live Fit. Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate now@celsius.com your gut affects everything, even your mood. So Ollie created two brand new products to take care of your ins. Ollie Big 10 Probiotic has 10 strains of probiotics, their most ever, to support a healthy gut, microbiome, immune system and stress response. And Ollie Super Good Superfoods delivers 15 superfoods in tasty gummy form. Find them at ollie.com and exclusively at Walmart. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease what is Dadication? The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariona.
- [00:59]
Tim
We call him Day Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it' affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making.
- [01:08]
April
Sure that when he's no longer under.
- [01:10]
Tim
My wing that he's a good person.
- [01:12]
April
I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together.
- [01:15]
Tim
We did a good job. That's Dadication. Find out more@fatherhood.gov brought to you by the US Department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.
- [01:23]
April
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Tim
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- [02:20]
April
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- [03:15]
Tim
I'm Tim.
- [03:16]
April
Woohoo. We introduced ourselves.
- [03:20]
Tim
We've. We've done it. April. Good job. Happy, I guess, Monday. To all of you who are watching this on a Monday or listening to it on a Monday when it first drops, I don't know. That was a bad intro, but we're gonna keep it and just roll with it.
- [03:34]
April
I feel like it was great.
- [03:36]
Tim
Sometimes I say things bad about yourself. Sometimes I'll say things that I think come across terrible. I'll listen back and be like, oh, that wasn't nearly as bad as I felt it was. Does that make sense? So that was one of those moments. Yeah.
- [03:49]
April
Where it's like, it's coming out and your brain's like, no, this is uncomfortable and awkward, but you can't stop it. It's already. The train's going.
- [03:57]
Tim
Yeah, exactly. Especially when you're live. The worst is when you're live and you're like, wait, I can't. I can't hit the cut button and redo this. It's just coming out.
- [04:05]
April
Yeah.
- [04:05]
Tim
So I better try and, like, save face as quick as I possibly can.
- [04:08]
April
Okay. This. There have been times in our lives where I have a thought and I start to say that thought, and as I'm saying the thought, I lose the thought. But I'm still talking, Right. And in real time, I come up with something. I have no idea what I am saying. I'm like, I hope this makes sense. We just go with it.
- [04:32]
Tim
Okay. I thought it was just me. There have been times where I'm like, I hope this tracks. I hope the audience tracks with whatever a Holy spirit speaking in tongues moment is happening right now. Because I don't know where I am. You know, as a drummer, there are moments like that too, where I'll go for this fill and I'm like, oh, I started it too early. So you're just kind of making up as you go and you hope you land back on the one. That's how I feel sometimes verbally, where I'm like, oh, man, I'm way in jazz land here. I'm really riffing. I'm really riffing, and I hope I land.
- [05:02]
April
Honestly, maybe all that, because, I mean, as a former Pentecostal worship leader, you know, they were trying to hone in our spontaneous worship skills. You know, like we would practice being spontaneous, which I. I don't even know how that makes it spontaneous anymore, but maybe I'm just using those skills for these lives.
- [05:21]
Tim
Yes.
- [05:22]
April
Because when I. When my thoughts go away and I don't remember what I was trying to say, I'm in spontaneous land. And I hope whatever I say is going to make sense and not be messed up in some way.
- [05:35]
Tim
I cannot tell you how vindicated I feel hearing you say that. I can almost cry. I thought. I thought it was just me losing my mind and I was the beginning of, like, you know, me not having a mind anymore. But no, it turns out you do that too. So.
- [05:47]
April
Yeah, sounds good. I think we're all. I'm probably the. Any moment that you've had that I probably didn't notice because in my head I'm thinking, oh, shoot, did what I just say made sense? And I'm not even listening to what you're saying because I'm having an internal freak out.
- [06:00]
Tim
Well, the worst for me, too, is so obviously when we go live, I'm kind of, like, doing all the technical stuff too. I'm pulling up comments, I'm queuing up videos. So I'm trying to listen to you while also grabbing a clip so I can, like, riff off what you're saying while grabbing the clip.
- [06:16]
April
It's a lot.
- [06:17]
Tim
I can't wait till we're rich and famous and we have a podcast producer that does it all for us automatically. Yeah, happen. I've been manifesting it, man.
- [06:25]
April
Name it and claim it.
- [06:26]
Tim
That's right. If everyone in the audience would give us $100 a month, we can get a private jet. Come on. And then we could do a big national tour. We'll fly first class, private jet all the way, doing a huge podcast tour. People would love that.
- [06:40]
April
I know. It's so wild to me that Gen like. Like people like Jim Baker and Kenneth Copeland and Jesse Duplantis, like all these, like, really wealthy prosperity gospel preachers, genuinely have no problem asking people to sow seeds of $1,000. Paula White, whatever it is. I have a hard time asking people to just buy my book.
- [07:02]
Tim
April. Like, I, I look, you know that the New Evangelicals, which is the, the like, parent organization that's, that makes this show possible. We're a nonprofit. And so for a long time it's, it's been on me to do the donor ask. I feel awkward. Like, right now we're in the middle of. We're calling it the Sins of Empathy campaign because people, you know, these Christian Nationals think that empathy is a sin. And so we're, we're trying to raise money because we want to. We want to hire new staff, we want to bring on some new content creators, and we're trying to, essentially, we're asking for a thousand people to donate $10 a month. Right. We're trying to. Many hands make light. Makes light work approach. And I feel bad asking people for $10 a month. I feel like, weird being like, could you please, if you don't mind, consider donating $10 a month. Then you got Jim Baker who's like, if you don't give us $5,000 right now, you need to, God, put it on my heart. So the seed, and they mean that. I almost wish I had that kind of, you know, undignified approach for money because I probably have a lot more of it, but I just can't do it. I just can't do it. I can't do it.
- [08:08]
April
I know. I feel that completely. Well, for the people that are watching and listen or listening to this, that are like, oh, my God, get to the point. Stop your banter. For the anti banter people, we will now move on. And so for this episode, Tim and I are. We want to talk about. It's Pride Month, so we want to talk about queer issues. And we were going to try to do a deep dive of the history of Christian nationalism and anti queerness and all of that, and we honestly just didn't have the time to do the research. It's summer, my kids are home, we're traveling. There's a lot happening.
- [08:47]
Tim
Also, we're trying, we're trying to maintain these lives because the news is so crazy. Like, our bandwidth is just limited right now. Yeah.
- [08:55]
April
Yeah. And then on top of that, we're also just trying to do, like, our own content on our own platforms. It's.
- [09:01]
Tim
Yeah, I do another podcast and another. I do. I do a YouTube live called TN After Dark. Right. I do the TNP podcast and then of course, the Instagram. And you have your own Content. So yes, we do a lot of other content now. I even have a personal substack at Tim Whitaker Speaks. So, like, you know, we're content machines these days, April.
- [09:20]
April
Oh my gosh. I know. So, but, but we talked and so we decided that we are still going to talk about queer issues and Christian nationalism, but we're going to just do it from a more anecdotal. Our experience, what we were taught about queer people growing up and kind of how we changed or. And you know, some, some things that maybe we saw that just started to not make sense. Because I do think there's a lot of value in people's stories, you know, which is kind of the whole point of my book. And a lot of what we do too is that there's a lot of data on Christian nationalism, there's a lot of statistics on Christian nationalism. And all of that is very important to know your history and to know the science behind it. Like, these are the facts. But I think just as important is the feeling. How does it feel to grow up in that world? How does it feel to think like that? What's the ideology teaching you? How do you live that out? And then just real stories of people who were from that world who changed, like you and I, I think is. I think, I think is just as important because it humanizes the statistics.
- [10:25]
Tim
April, I'm sorry, you said something. You have a book?
- [10:28]
April
Yeah. Oh, Lean this Way, Star Spangled Jesus.
- [10:32]
Tim
Oh, I didn't know. Amazing. Is it available now?
- [10:35]
April
It is available now. And there's also an audiobook and I record it myself.
- [10:40]
Tim
Well, there you go. There you go. People pick up April's book immediately. It's great.
- [10:44]
April
Yeah. There's actually a paperback coming out in September and I, because I had to write a little update.
- [10:50]
Tim
That's.
- [10:51]
April
Oh, congrats. That's awesome. Honestly, the update. Imagine trying to write an update for the last year.
- [10:57]
Tim
Yeah.
- [10:57]
April
In like two pages and like a thousand words.
- [11:01]
Tim
Yeah, exactly. Things are terrible, April.
- [11:05]
April
While also trying to keep like the more humorous tone of the book too. So anyway, you could get the paperback if you want to see my attempt at that.
- [11:15]
Tim
I agree. Agree though. Stories are really important. And in fact, I mean, look, as we're going to share, in my case in particular, I think yours, it was people that changed us. It wasn't data. You know, my mind wasn't changed because I read a stat. I went, oh my gosh, I'm wrong on this. The initial entryway to me going from a non affirming conservative evangelical Christian To a fully affirming Christian was really. It really happened because I met someone, because I heard someone's story, and that's what made me. It forced me to rethink my dogma because the experience of other people didn't match the dogma that I was being taught. Does that make sense?
- [11:52]
April
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
- [11:53]
Tim
I think stories are really important.
- [11:55]
April
I'm curious to know when you first heard the term homosexual or gay or if, like, if you even remember. Do you remember?
- [12:04]
Tim
I don't remember. It was just kind of in the air. Like, here's the thing. I. You and I, we talked about this, and I think in our first ever episode, like, our journey out of Christian nationalism and how we grew up in the white evangelical tent, but, like, in different parts of. Of the tent. Right. I grew up a little more cessationist, so not speaking in tongues, a little more Calvinist. And so I will tell you this, though. Like, I wasn't brought up in a church that was like pounding from the pulpit, the gays are going to hell. That wasn't what I was. I was taught from church. But you know how they say culture is more caught than taught? I just picked up this idea through various indirect means that essentially the homosexuals, quote unquote, you know, were really sinful, ungodly, they're perverted, and, like, you know, they were trying to destroy America. Again, I can't remember a time where I heard a preacher in my church say it that way. But, like, in the world I was living in, I just kind of picked up on this idea that, like, gay people in particular are extra immoral. Like, they were up there with the atheists. You know, it was like, yeah, hey, in terms of bad people in America, you got. You got, like, feminists maybe, but then you got atheists and you got gay people. Like, they're like. Like the holy trifecta of folks who are ruining America. So that's kind of what I picked up on over time, I do think.
- [13:21]
April
Especially, like, in the 90s and 2000s, honestly, even today. But when we were growing up, homophobia was, like, in the creeds, you know, it was. It was. It was an essential. Basically, you couldn't come out of that world without being homophobic. Really?
- [13:38]
Tim
Totally. And, like, you know, a lot of churches now, they have a statement on sexuality and gender because they need to. But back then, there weren't really. Because it was assumed. Like, of course not. Like, it wasn't. It wasn't even a conversation. Right? Like, there were no churches in. In any world I operated in that were even asking the question. It was just assumed that gay people are not good people. I mean, and I was kind of given the stereotype that I'm sure many of us were that, you know, in particular gay men were like, hypersexual and they were really promiscuous and, you know, I couldn't trust them. And they just were like, you know, very depraved as humans. And again, like, I wasn't taught that directly from a pastor at my church, but I just kind of picked up on that between talk radio, between certain evangelical literature, like those people over there are part of the major problems with American society right now.
- [14:29]
April
Yeah, yeah, well, I, I was taught it very directly. I. I remember. So my first interaction or the first time I ever heard the term homosexual that I can remember was I was probably five, maybe four or five. Like. Like I actually have some very specific core memories around this topic for whatever reason. But I remember I was in Sunday school and a kid asked me if I liked my first. If I liked my best friend who was a girl. And I was like, yeah, like I didn't understand the question. Like, of course I like her. And he was like, oh, so you're gay? I was like, what, what does that mean? And he's like, it means you like girls. Like, like you're supposed to like boys. I was like, okay, I mean, no, I don't like her like that, but. But then I thought it was really funny. So then later that day we went home after church and my dad was co pastor of my grandfather at this church, at this large church in Dallas. So I was a pastor first kid. So I went up to my. One of my brothers and I was like, hey, Matt, do you like Johnny, who is his best friend? And Matt was like, yeah. And I was like, oh, you're gay. Like, did the thing like 90s kids do. And my dad overheard it, you know, and got so mad, was like, april, don't ever joke about that. And I remember being kind of scared. I was like. Because I didn't think anything of it. It was just like this innocent joke that I just learned in Sunday school, right? And he's like, no, we never joke about that because there are actually people out there that do that. And it is very, it is very wrong and very sinful. And they, they, they're homosexuals and we don't. You don't ever joke about your brothers being that way. And I was like, oh, okay. And then another, another core memory. I was probably a year or two later, I was seven or eight. We went to a restaurant, and our waiter was gay. Like, he kind of talked a little more flamboyant, which I didn't think anything of it at the time. But after he took our drink order, my dad was like, all right, kids, we gotta go. And I asked why? And he said, well, that man is a homosexual, and I don't feel comfortable with him serving us food. And I remember walking away, and I turned back, like, Lot's wife kind of feels like that moment. But I turned back and I looked, and I made eye contact with the waiter. And I remember, like, I can still see his face. It is a core memory. And he looked so pained. He just had this really sad, hurt look on his face. And I was. I was really too young to have been taught to hate him yet. And I remember feeling like what we were doing was wrong.
- [17:25]
Tim
Yeah.
- [17:25]
April
But I also, like, my dad was my dad, and he hung the moon, you know, like. And I wasn't gonna question him either. And so it was like a very confusing, conflicting emotion that I had as a child, even. But those. Those two things really stuck with me. And then, obviously, as I got older, I started doing the same. Love the sinner, hate the sin. You know, speaking truth in love. And then I developed my own homophobia as well. Because when you're in that world, it's totally.
- [17:56]
Tim
That.
- [17:56]
April
That's what you catch. You don't catch queerness like, cooties, which I do think, like, a lot of people act like you can just catch it like it's a disease, which is not true. But you can catch homophobia. Like, homophobia and hatred is taught.
- [18:09]
Tim
Yeah.
- [18:09]
April
Being gay or being queer is not taught. That is an inherent. You're. You're. You are born that way.
- [18:15]
Tim
I'm wondering if, for me, one of the reasons why it wasn't so blatant is because my dad's brother is gay. And so I remember, like, one of my core memories is going over my uncle's house and meeting his roommate. I didn't know that they were together at the time. And we're going through their apartment, and I'm asking, like, oh, like, where does. Where does uncle so and so's, you know, friends sleep? There's only one bed. I was like. I was young. I just didn't know. So I'm wondering if part of why, like, I. I wasn't part of either a church or didn't even hear it at home was because my dad had a brother, you know, who was gay. But, like, again, like, you're right. As I got older, especially as I listened to talk radio a lot more because it was kind of on in my environment. Yeah, I really learned pretty quickly that, you know, like, the. The gay agenda, right? It's coming for America. Gay people shouldn't be allowed to get married. It violates the order of creation. It violates our biblical mandate, it violates our Christian heritage as a country, etc, And I don't know, you know, it's. I'm 36 now, so it's tough to, like, look back at my young adult years with, like, full clarity because it's so long ago. But I think that even when I was at my most extreme right, I never really bought into, like, the culture war side of things, minus maybe abortion. Right. Abortion was probably the only topic where I was like, I would go to the March for Life rallies. I wore the shirt that said abortion is homicide in huge font. But I wasn't like, someone who was all bought in of, like, we have, you know, we have to protect America from, like, the gays. I mean, I, I would say things online and, like, forums like, you know, I don't think it should be legalized, but I wasn't, like, living and breathing it 24 7. And I think as I got older and I got to be like, you know, yeah, maybe like, 17, 18. Because I was someone who wanted to take my faith incredibly seriously and I wanted to take the whole. The whole Bible seriously. I just started realizing that, like, people that I knew seemed to kind of pick on gays over, like, other quote unquote sins. So make no mistake, I wasn't affirming by any stretch of the imagination. But also, I kind of started to see this weird, like, hypocrisy of, well, why aren't we calling out greed and we're only calling out homosexuality? Because the Bible mentions greed a lot more than homosexuality, so I would think that'd be more of an emphasis. But for some reason, it feels like it's the opposite. Like, we're really nitpicking on this group of people who, by the way, don't even want to be in our churches. Like, they know that we don't like them, so mission accomplished. But we have a lot of people in the church who are definitely greedy, but that's not, like, a big cultural talking point. So I kind of sobered up to that realization pretty young. Even though I would say at that time, like, hey, being gay isn't God's best for you. It's not how God intended us to live. Right. I would, I would. I would try and sugarcoat the language.
- [21:13]
April
Yeah.
- [21:13]
Tim
But I wasn't affirming.
- [21:15]
April
Right. So you. You kind of had a more gradual change over time.
- [21:22]
Tim
Yeah, definitely.
- [21:23]
April
There wasn't, like, a big moment.
- [21:25]
Tim
No, well, you know, it was one of those things, I. I guess one of the big moments for me of, of when I really shifted and I, I actually. It's funny, we're doing this episode on Monday. I just dropped on. On the TNE YouTube channel. Like, my full story of. Of actually this conversation. It's like a monologue, and so if people want all the details, they can go, you know, listen to it. But one of the moments that really changed me. Well, I would say it got me to really think more critically about what I believe regarding this topic was meeting my first ever gay co worker. My first ever. I mean, I was 18. I started working at Starbucks. His name was Joey. I have permission to share his nickname, which is Joey. I. We still talk. I can share this story. And, you know, I'm at Starbucks. It used to be a 24. 7 Starbucks. Starbucks I used to work at. And I find out that my co worker, Joey, is gay. And I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I've been warned about, like, you know, the gays, you know, like, this is. This is crazy. Like, this guy is probably super promiscuous and, like, wants to sleep with me or something. Like, you know, it was just all these, like, the caricature of what you're taught in this world. And then I found out that he was also an atheist. So I'm like, oh, my God, like, double whammy, you know, a gay atheist. But as we started talking, I. I just realized very quickly, oh, this person is a human. He is a human being, and he. He likes music and he volunteers in his local community. He's actually more involved in his local community than I am in mine. And, like, it just kind of, like, changed how I saw people who were gay. And then one day we were talking over Facebook because we kept in touch. We would debate, you know, if gay marriage should be legalized or not over Facebook. And he would just ask me questions like, hey, like, you know, you talk about freedom, so why don't I have the freedom to marry who I want in America? Like, isn't that what freedom is about? And I was like, well, that's a valid point. You know, even. Even if I disagree with it, maybe this person should still have the right to be able to get married. But the Moment that really broke me was we were talking over Facebook messenger a long time ago and he told me that when he was 13, he was struggling with his sexuality. He came out to his youth pastor and his youth pastor called him an abomination and told him never to come back. And that story really broke me. I mean, I, I cried when I, when I read those words. Like, I mean, tears quite literally hit my keyboard because the church for me worked so well. I couldn't imagine having that experience in church because I didn't have that experience. And hearing that a youth Pastor told a 13 year old child, that really rocked my world and was kind of the first moment where I realized that not everyone has the same experience in church that I have. And I would say that was the beginning of a very long road of going from non affirming to affirming with a lot of it being this gray area where my heart was there but my head wasn't because of the Bible. Like that was the hardest thing for me was getting over what the Bible says about homosexuality on my side. But I am curious for you, April, like, for you, what was it a light switch moment where you went from point A to point B? Or was it gradual as well because you were touring with your dad and like you were doing like some pretty active missions type of work. You know, America saved Jesus, so you were kind of in the belly of the beast.
- [24:38]
April
Oh yeah, I, so I would say it was, it was gradual and then it was. And then there was a really big moment. Like I. So 20, 2012, my dad had passed away in 2011, which already, like, my faith was already kind of rocked from that being Pentecostal, believing for healing and that not happening. And so in 2012, I don't know if you remember, but there was there, there was this gay couple who was like all over Fox News and conservative news and people were boycotting JCPenney because JCPenney featured a gay, a gay dad's couple for their Father's Day catalog. And I was getting my masters at Regent at the time Pat Robertson's University. And so I was interning at the NBC affiliate in Dallas Fort Worth. And this couple was in Dallas, Fort Worth. And my very first like interview as an intern that they assigned me was to go interview those two gay dads.
- [25:42]
Tim
Wow.
- [25:43]
April
And I, I remember psyching myself up like on the way there. I was so nervous because I like, I'm like, I've, I had met who I assumed were gay people before, but they were never out to me. You know, but. So this was, like, my first time talking with gay people who were, like, out, who were together. And this was before, you know, gay marriage had been federally legalized. This was in 2012. So, anyway, in my head, I'm thinking, okay, the mainstream media has made being gay look normal, maybe even good, and they're all lies. And now I've been put in this opportunity as a Christian woman to go and interview these two gay dads, and I can expose them for who they really are. And I don't know if you. What you were taught about gay people, but I was taught that they chose to be gay, that nobody was born gay, and they chose that either because they were demonically possessed or demonically oppressed. Do you know the difference between those two?
- [26:48]
Tim
I. Honestly, I do not.
- [26:50]
April
Oh, okay. Well, let me educate you as the. As the token Pentecostal.
- [26:54]
Tim
Please educate me.
- [26:55]
April
April, if you are demon possessed, you. You have a demon, like, inside you that is possessing your body, right? Like, we're talking horror movies. When you have to cast out, that's when you need an exorcism.
- [27:08]
Tim
It's controlling you kind of thing, Right?
- [27:10]
April
It is controlling your body. You. You're speaking in a different voice sometimes. Like, you're. You are not your own. You are now sharing a body with a demon.
- [27:19]
Tim
Got it.
- [27:19]
April
Demonic oppression. So Christians in my theology could be oppressed by a demon. And what that means is you kind of have a demon that's kind of hanging on your pant leg, right? It's kind of like on the outside of your body. It doesn't control you, but it's whispering little sweet nothings into your ear.
- [27:37]
Tim
It's, like, on your shoulder. Just like whiskey. Yeah.
- [27:40]
April
It's, like, influencing you so you can be under the influence of demonic oppression. You're not fully possessed, but you're making decisions based on demonic influence. So, anyway, that's what I was taught.
- [27:53]
Tim
Thank you for clarifying that. I was always curious, so thank you.
- [27:57]
April
Yes. Oh, gosh. Really? Sometimes when you say these things out loud, it's like, I believed all that stuff. No wonder I'm in therapy.
- [28:06]
Tim
Exactly.
- [28:08]
April
So that's what I was taught about gay people. So I was convinced I was gonna go and just have this really strong Christian moment, right? And either witness to them or get their demons to manifest so I could prove they're evil. Right? So I get there, and these two gay dads were so kind. Like, they were so nice to me, and they took a special interest in me. Like, I was an intern. They didn't I was nobody at NBC. You know, I was an unpaid intern. And they were, they were like, oh, so you're getting your, your master's wear? And I said Regent University Christian School. And they're like, oh great. And I found out one of them had gotten their degree at a Christian school. And I remember being very confused by that because they were and they, and, and I mentioned going to church and I mentioned God and I mentioned all the things like to see like if they have a demon, they're going to be mad when I say the name Jesus.
- [29:04]
Tim
Right, right. They're going to freak out.
- [29:06]
April
Yeah. But nothing happened. There was no foaming at the mouth. They were just so kind mathing. Right. And I remember in the moment like I had had these kind of gotcha questions planned, like, well, don't you think it' for children to be raised by a mom and a dad?
- [29:24]
Tim
Right.
- [29:26]
April
I couldn't make myself ask that question in the moment. And to be fair, like NBC did not know I was planning to ask those questions.
- [29:33]
Tim
That was to be clear, those were.
- [29:35]
April
Not on the pre approved list of questions. But yeah, like their kindness disarmed me. And I remember being very confused by that. And it didn't change my theology overnight because that same summer 2012, Chick Fil A was in hot water because Dan Cathy, who is the owner, said that marriage was between one man and one woman. So a lot of people were boycotting Chick Fil A. And I remember I boycotted their boycott was and was eating Chick Fil A every single day and posting about it.
- [30:04]
Tim
Well, that was a thing. That was a thing. A lot of Christians did that they're like, you know what? Well, we're going to eat Chick Fil A even harder now.
- [30:10]
April
You know, that was me. Yeah, that was, I was so obnoxious. So like, and that happened within the same month the like the two things. So even though I had learned was like confused by this interaction, it was not enough to immediately change me because I was still, you know, loudly supporting Chick Fil A. Yeah, but, yeah, but the big, the really big thing that happened. So there are little things like that that kind of left me, I guess, confused. But you're also taught not to have those doubts. You're taught that those doubts are from Satan. So you, you have these built up, you know, defenses to, to be able to handle situations like that in case one does dare meet a gay and realize they're not evil.
- [30:57]
Tim
Right.
- [30:57]
April
You've got convinces to be like, well, Satan can come as an angel of Light. And that's just. Must be what that was.
- [31:02]
Tim
And, yeah, that's why they didn't film with the mouth, you know, because it was. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [31:06]
April
He had the glimmer.
- [31:10]
Tim
Yeah, yeah. Okay.
- [31:12]
April
But, yeah, so. But the really big thing that happened in this category. Well, really, there were two, but. But one was bigger and one was longer. In 2015, so, like, a month after Supreme Court ruled on Obergefell and gay marriage was legalized, my brother came to visit me in Beecher. And we had been married like a year. One of my brothers came to visit us in Virginia and stayed with us. And he told me after we had gotten coffee that in our kitchen table, we were sitting there and he just looked at me and he said, april, I have to tell you something. And I said, okay. And then he just started bawling. And I didn't know what. I don't know what was happening. Cause he could barely get the words out. But he said, I'm. I've never been attracted to women. I've only ever been attracted to the same sex. And he's saying this through just tears and gasping of breath because he's. He's almost inconsolable. And I remember I just went over there and hugged him and I just said, you know, it's okay. I love you. And I. I remember it felt like every homophobic thing that I'd ever said in front of him kind of flashed before my eyes because suddenly those things I wasn't saying about strangers that I didn't know, I was saying those things about my brother the entire time, who I loved. And that was a very humbling moment. I remember I felt really guilty for those things because clearly I was wrong and my theology hadn't caught up to me yet. Even in the moment we talked about how. How you. You find yourself saying something that your brain hasn't fully processed yet. And so I found myself saying, well, we know what the Bible says, right? Even, like. Even though that felt icky to say, like, I felt I. I didn't want to enable my brother. I didn't want his blood to be on my hands. Because that was something I had also been taught. And also I knew what I believed had to be wrong. Because I know my brother growing up in that exact same homophobic environment as me, who was at that same dinner, like, table where we left the restaurant because our waiter was gay. I know there's no way he would choose this, right? And so I knew that, like, I. We. We had a clear misunderstanding of what it means to be gay. And I didn't change my theology right away, but that definitely kind of took me on a path. And I will say I don't, I don't talk about like the spiritual side of this very often because I don't know, I feel like people get weird about it sometimes. But six months prior to this, I had a dream that I really feel was like this prophetic dream in a way. I don't know how to explain it, but I had a dream that my brother came out to me in the exact same way that he did come out to me sitting in the exact same spot and our kitchen table. And like, I really have felt the whole time that like, my journey to becoming fully queer affirming was completely spirit led. And I, I don't, like, I don't know how else to describe it because I do believe in spiritual things and I believe that, that, that God is so much bigger than the evangelical version of God and that there's room for queer people and all of that stuff now. But like, I have no doubts now of being queer affirming as a Christian. Like, I know the clobber verses, I know that they exist. And I also have so much peace in being queer affirming. And that, that is, that is what I wish I could tell Christians who maybe want to support gay, gay and trans people, like, they, they want to, but they just can't get there because they, you know, the way that they interpret certain verses. But I just, like, you don't realize how much you don't love queer people when you have an unaffirming theology until you leave it behind. Because I like, I, I, when I, when I was boycotting or, you know, being loud for chick fil A and when I was being really homophobic in online and in person, like, I genuinely thought I was being loving. I thought that was a type of love, like, you know, tough love. We have to, to save souls. And you don't want to enable sin because you genuinely believe that they were going to hell and that I had to, they had to stop being gay in order to not I, you know.
- [36:01]
Tim
I genuinely believe that too. But looking back, I realized how absurd it is, right? It's like that's what's so weird. It's like I'm with you, like in those moments. I agree. I thought I was being loving by trying to save these people or, you know, have them commit, quote, unquote, less sin. Being that far, this far removed from all that. Now I go, that's, it's it's honestly just code for control is what it comes down to. Like we just wanted to control other people. I'm not saying I even wanted to. I don't, I don't, I don't think I was. But that's what it comes down to. It's kind of like now you see this sin of empathy, you know, the toxic empathy kind of mantra, right? Why do they make these new talking points up? Because empathy is what allows you to put yourself in someone else's shoes. So when you see a family being ripped apart by ICE agents and you see a child crying, it's normal and human. And Christ like to think, oh my gosh, if that was me, I would be broken. I feel for this person, something is wrong. And so you have to create these talking points in right wing evangelical spaces that, that, that someone can implement and say, well, no, that's just toxic empathy. Right? Because law and order, it's the same thing here. Like there's all this dogma around gay people or queer people that we were taught that, that. I feel like when you and I both had our personal experiences with someone who was queer for the first time, whether it's a brother or a friend, it forces you to choose between the dogma that you were taught or the lived reality and embodiment of the person in front of you. And I think for, I think that's where people go either one of two directions, right? Some people double back down on their dogma. Well, I, I have to remain committed to this view of God that I was taught is immovable. Or other people say, okay, if God is real, there's no way they would force me to choose between loving my own brother or loving them. That would make no sense. Right? And I don't know what goes into someone's psyche to make some. That makes them choose path A versus path B. But for you and I, I would, I would argue because I was taught to love my neighbor as myself and to love Christ. And Christ in the Gospels is incredibly empathetic and kind to people who society says are on the outs. It wasn't the world's heaviest lift to get there. But I will tell you, it was difficult initially in my brain because of these verses. You know, it's so ingrained in you that, that like the Bible condemns homosexuality. And I think that like, part of what, what made it easier to let that go. Well, I'll put it this way. I, I think that a lot of the, a lot of the cracks in the foundation came from Meeting people who were gay, okay. But there was still a foundation there that I couldn't get around. I'm sleep well, but, but despite all of that, despite my empathy and my love and my heart being here, there's something in my brain that says, but God doesn't approve. And I want to feel like I want to have allegiance to God. And what I was really saying was the specific interpretation I was given around the modern English Protestant Bible, right. Is God to me, because I was taught that, and that takes preference over my neighbor. But I think especially after I started tne and I got to talk to all these different scholars, because even, even when I first started tne, I, I told like someone who was kind of big in the deconstruction space. She reached out to me, was like, hey, so are you affirming or not? I was like, really freaked out because I'm like, well, I, I, I want to be, but like, I'm just not fully there yet. But I want to be. You know, I believe in full. I believe that queer people deserve the same rights that we do. Legally, I'm, I'm there, but on like a theological level, I'm not sure yet. And that person, we talked on Zoom, she was so kind and she held so much space for me and she was like, hey, I understand. I get that. Thank you for being honest. It is a journey. And, and that kind of enabled me to kind of keep exploring. Right. And so after, after a couple episodes of interviewing just amazing biblical scholars about the Bible as a whole, how we got our Bible, how the Bible's compiled, you know, how complicated translations are, how, how different words don't mean what we think, et cetera, that that was what finally loosened the grip of like these six different verses condemning gay people. For me, I just realized that, that first off, the Bible's really complicated. Number two, most likely what we think about as a gay person or a queer person has no context for the biblical authors. And number three, and this might, this might rub some people the wrong way, but just like how Paul in the Bible says for slaves to obey their masters, and I would never agree with that today, I have no problem at all saying to us, if there was a slave in front of me saying, do not listen to Paul, we have to get you out of here, right? Even though the Bible is clear, I don't care if Paul did condemn same sex relationships. I don't care. I don't care. He's wrong. He's wrong. Just like how I think Paul was wrong for telling Slaves to obey their masters. And that, that should not be a controversial thing to say in 2025America, that no, Paul, slaves should not obey their masters. Slaves should not be in bondage to begin with. Right.
- [40:50]
April
Yeah.
- [40:51]
Tim
And so for me, I'm just kind of there, right? That, that doesn't mean I don't take the Bible incredibly seriously or I don't see it as authoritative in my life. I definitely do. But I have no problem saying even if the Bible quote unquote condemned modern day queer relationships, I would not care. I would still endorse and affirm queer people.
- [41:11]
April
Yeah, well, I think it was very telling too when I started looking at the theology because one, I was never taught that there was even a theological position to affirm queer people. And there absolutely is. Definitely for the longest time as I, so I started reading books, I started reading up my own interpretations and I, it took me a few, a few years after he came out to fully become affirming. But I was just, I was not combative about it, you know, like I, I kind of lay down my political weapons on the gay issue because I was like, I just need to figure this out. But I know, like I, what I was doing was wrong. And I realized, I kind of came to, I realized I'm never going to be a hundred percent on either camp because there are verses to support affirming and unaffirming. If you're just going by verses, there are verses for both. And I just kind of decided one day it was a decision. And I just realized I am a better person if I can affirm queer people. I can love my neighbor better if I can affirm them and be in their lives. And I just realized, you know, God does not give us a spirit of fear. And I realized I was only holding on to an unaffirming theology out of fear and not out of love. And I decided, you know what, if I'm going to be wrong, I'm going to err on the side of love. And so I chose, I chose to be affirming because I, I felt like it was kind of 50, 50 scripture wise if you're just going by scripture for either side. And the amount of peace and freedom that I felt once I was able to fully embrace queer people with no ulterior motive, with no fear of their blood being on my hands, and just see them for human beings for the first time, because really prior to that, you can never have a genuinely, a genuine, authentic human relation with a queer person.
- [43:12]
Tim
Yes.
- [43:12]
April
If you are not affirming them. Like, like, and, and, and I, I don't think it's like people think when I think affirming is a little bit of a trigger word for some people because they're like, oh, you affirm their sinful lifestyle. Like. No, no, no, no, no. I, I am bi. I'm in a. You know, my, my spouse is non binary, but I didn't realize I was bi until I was married. So I've only ever been in straight passing relationships, you know, and I'm. I just am not. Okay, remember that time earlier where we talked about losing your train of thought?
- [43:47]
Tim
Did it happen?
- [43:48]
April
I just lost it. And I'm just gonna be honest about it.
- [43:50]
Tim
Well, I can take over. I have some thoughts.
- [43:52]
April
They take. Take over.
- [43:54]
Tim
Okay.
- [43:55]
April
The lifestyle. That's what it was. I was gonna say there's no such thing as a gay lifestyle. Just like there's no such thing as a straight lifestyle or a bi lifestyle. Like, it's literally, it's. It's a, it's a descriptive term. It's like saying I have red hair.
- [44:10]
Tim
Right?
- [44:10]
April
That's just a fact about me. Me having red hair doesn't dictate how I live my life.
- [44:15]
Tim
No, no, no. You live the red hair lifestyle. I see how you live. It's a red hair lifestyle and it is, it's debaucherous. Have you heard that empathy is now a sin? Yeah. If that's the case, then let's sin boldly, friends. Because if loving your neighbor, caring for the oppressed and fighting for human dignity makes us part of the dangerous woke mob, then we here at the New Evangelicals are guilty as charged. We're out here standing with our queer neighbors, calling out inhumane deportations, naming the evils of fascism, and yeah, believing in fundamental human rights for everybody, no matter their race, gender, gender identity or ability. We believe this not because we're politically partisan, but because of our allegiance to the radical way of Jesus. And this rebel cause of radical empathy runs on support from dangerously empathetic people like you. As a non profit, we here at TNE keep all of our content resources and our community app TNE Connect Completely paywall free. But in order to keep this work going, we need your help. That's why we're asking, asking a thousand of you to become monthly donors. $10 a month is all it takes to help us keep producing content. And it will also enable us to add new content creators to our platform, educating you on Christian nationalism and helping you find a better path forward in faith politics and culture. When you donate, you'll be entered to win heavenly rewards for your empathy crimes like books, to expand your heresy merch like this, and even a chance to be on our podcast. Your donation funds a joyful rebellion with diverse voices, a community space away from the algorithm, and helps spread a better path forward in faith, politics and culture. So join us Donate now and confess your sins of empathy on our donor wall so you can tell the whole world about your depraved actions and let's build something better together. Link is in the show Notes.
- [46:16]
April
Hi, my name is Johnny and my name.
- [46:17]
Tim
Is Emily and we live in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
- [46:20]
April
We started donating to TNE because of a series of events that started right after we left the Evangelical church last year. I've dealt with abuse from my family pretty much my whole life. It got pretty bad to the point where they started to emotionally abuse and manipulate Emily and our relationship. We talked to a couple of her pastors separately and we were met with denial, shame, victim blaming, and spiritual abuse. The pastors that we once trusted sided.
- [46:46]
Tim
With my abusers and completely rejected us.
- [46:49]
April
Once we took a step back from the Evangelical church, our eyes were opened and now it's so hard to not see the situation for what it truly is. Ever since we left the church, our friends and those closest to us started to shame us and have said and done many hurtful things, and they have said and done many spiritually abusive things towards us. It made us realize that many Christians don't know how to listen and grieve with those who have been abused and harmed by their religion. T and E has been a huge help to us as we're healing. This platform encourages us that we are not alone. You guys have helped us find our voice and learn how to stand up against abuse, especially within the church. We wouldn't be who we are today if it wasn't for tne. We would love to see this platform continue to grow and reach others who are also trying to heal and deconstruct, which is why we decided to donate. So thank you guys for all the work that you do.
- [47:43]
Tim
There. There were three different rationales that helped me overcome my initial well, the Bible's clear on this topic. I'll give them to the audience very succinctly. The first one was realizing that the Bible is not clear on hell at all and that hell is probably most likely not what we think regarding Burning in Hell Forever, I just really, you know, I mean, there are four different words for hell in the Bible. There's sheol, there's Tartarus. There's. Wow. There is. Well, yeah, thank you again. There's one more. What is it? There were three. There's. Well, there's three or four. I know that. I think. Is it Kip Davis who watches this show? He's gonna correct me in the comments. So Kip, if I'm wrong, put it in the comment. But I think that there's definitely three words in the New Testament. Tartarus, Shield, and Gehenna. No, there's one more I'm, I'm liking on it, but whatever. My point is that there are different words for hell that do not equal or translate to hell in the Bible. Right. So meaning, like, you know, when Jesus says hell, he's saying Gehenna. That's different than I think in First Peter where it says Tartarus. And that's different than when someone else might say Sheol or the pit. Hades. Thank you, Hades. Sheol, I believe, is the Hebrew Bible. And then it's Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna, they're in the New Testament and they all mean different things. So just realizing that even this idea of hell being consistent in the Bible actually isn't the case at all, that was the first thing. Because I realized, well, wait, if I'm not trying to get everyone safe so they don't burn in hell forever, why do I care what they believe around God or the Bible? Ultimately, because, like, it doesn't have this, like, eternal consequence that I was taught it did. The other thing that that was very convincing was realizing that one of the biggest arguments that southern slave owners use to justify their slavery was to say to the abolitionists, show me in the Bible where it condemned slavery. And it doesn't. The Bible only regulates or endorses it.
- [49:38]
April
Yeah.
- [49:39]
Tim
Despite what apologists tell you, okay, the Bible regulates slavery or it endorses it. And so I would never ever tolerate that argument today at all to justify Jim Crow or to justify race based chattel slavery. I don't care if the Bible endorses slavery. I'm not not for it, period. Right. And again, I could use the Bible in other contexts. I could talk about how there's neither a Jew nor Greek, right, no free nor slave to make a rationale of why I hold that view. But ultimately, even if those verses weren't there and the Bible was just, you know, all about slavery is good, I still wouldn't endorse it. So why do I feel the need to hold the same view when it comes to my queer neighbors? Especially seeing how much damage we've done to queer folks in the name of God. And the last one I had that I thought was important for me was seeing how, especially in the New Testament, there's like this idea of, of even the early Christians really renegotiating their sacred tradition in favor of something new. So I think about Paul and circumcision, right? Paul was a Jew, and he's talking about, how do Jew and now Gentiles be grafted into the body of Christ? And they have this big debate. I think it's in Acts where Paul and some people say, hey, what if Gentiles don't need to be circumcised to be part of the family of God? Well, that is like a complete. That. That's a huge problem because obviously circumcision is key to being Jewish. It's key to being unified in the family of God for the Jew, right? But Paul says, well, in Christ, though, maybe it's not about physical circumcision, but it's circumcision of the heart. And so even in the Bible, there are these trajectories of, like, things in their own tradition being renegotiated. So for me, though, between those three different arguments in my head, I'm like, you know what? But why am I holding onto this besides fear, why? And I agree with you, April, since I let that go and I fully have affirmed and have become inclusive, two things. Number one, not only have queer people taught me so much about God and how diverse and beautiful and amazing God is, but also, I don't live with this burden every day of, like, oh, I want to love them, but I gotta be faithful to God, to me, they're totally integrated. How I love my queer neighborhood demonstrates my love for God, right? So, like, living in that kind of wholeness, living in a way where I'm not thinking about is this right or wrong, but saying to myself, no, like, loving my neighbor as myself, all of my neighbors is the way that God wants me to live as found in the way of Jesus is so freeing because now I can actually talk about real issues that actually matter, you know, not about things that really are so inconsequential long term.
- [52:11]
April
Yeah. And I think, you know, that's part of deconstructing, right? The. The dismantling of harmful beliefs and rebuilding, you know, beliefs that can do. Can do good and that are healthy. Because I. There's a lot of steps, and one of those is no longer viewing the Bible literally, which we are taught to do. And also, nobody Actually takes the Bible literally. Even the people who say they do, like, they're not out there avoiding shellfish or sending women out to tents when they're on their period or, you know, they're wearing mixed fabrics. Like, there's so many things that we don't take literally. And yes, I know. Descriptive versus prescriptive. And guess who made that up.
- [52:54]
Tim
Exactly.
- [52:55]
April
Men. It doesn't say in the Bible, this is a descriptive law, and this is a prescriptive law. Like, there's no, there's no differential differentiating within the text. So.
- [53:05]
Tim
That's right. The. The moral, ceremonial, ceremonial, and like the Mosaic law there, those are made up terms that get added to the text later on by people. Yeah, exactly.
- [53:15]
April
Right. And then I think eventually, too, I realized we are also picking and choosing who we are demonizing. Like, we are demonizing queer people, but not gluttons. We're demonizing queer people, but not people who get divorced. Although some. There are churches who do demonize people who get divorced. I mean, and I'm not saying we should do that, but I'm just saying Jesus actually talks about divorce. Jesus doesn't say a word about queer people.
- [53:39]
Tim
I had this epiphany a long time ago where I was like, wait, why do pastors feel that it's okay to ask people about their sex life but not their checkbooks? Like, why do pastors not go, hey, you know, the Bible says that greed's a sin, so we have to see your checkbook and how you spend your money before we let you into this congregation, make sure that you're not entertaining a greedy lifestyle. No one would do that. That'd be improper. It's a private matter. But for some reason, what you do in your bedroom, the pastor needs to know about that. Why? Like, who makes these rules up of. Of which parts of scripture they're going to enforce in a certain way? And yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm completely with you on that. I think it's. It became clearer and clearer to me, especially since doing the work that we do, that, like, there's a reason why white evangelicalism has aimed their gun of marginalization at queer people. Right. And not greedy people. Like, there's a whole inner logic to that. Right. People there between Christian nationalism and fascism. And just like these hierarch monarchies that are baked into the ethos, they want to maintain a certain type of culture where people like them are at the top. And marginalized groups, especially folks who break the, the, the, the. The sexual, you know, normalcy normalcy that is expected. You know, they're at the bottom for being abominations or for being not Christ or you know, not, not part of how God in their mind has, has ordered the world. Can I say one more thing really quick about this that I think is important? I agree with you. Like men wrote the Bible. And as much as I hold the Bible as authoritative, especially the words of Jesus, I'm also sober minded and clear that God did not write the Bible. Men wrote the Bible. Other men interpreted the Bible. Other men, you know, interpreted that interpretation. Other men had preached the Bible like, like this idea that, you know, well, the God's word is clear. It still is always mediated through other humans who are just as fallible as all of us, period. And I think, I think we have to keep that in mind.
- [55:36]
April
Well, yeah, and, and you have to keep in mind too people who grew up in this world or who are still in this world, when they hear their pastor talk about queer issues, it is still one sided. Like for example, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't know how many times anytime I talk about queer issues they're like, oh well what, what happened to Sodom? Look what happened, look what God did to Sodom. And they're always referencing, they say it's because of gay people, right. That God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. But like if you actually read the story, it's one, it wasn't just because gay people were existing there. It was because of assault with angels.
- [56:15]
Tim
Sexual assault.
- [56:16]
April
Yes, I know. Yes. And then never once in my memory did I hear a pastor also add the verse from Ezekiel that said, this is the sin of your sister Sodom. She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned. They did not help the poor and needy like that. That is in the Bible also. So even from their own, even if you take it literally, it is the Bible is not as anti queer as conservative Christian nationalists want you to, to think. And there are verses in there that can definitely be interpreted that way. But also as a woman who grew up in this world, I can't tell you the amount of times in the past and present that is it First Timothy, second Timothy, what's the verse? Women must be silent in church.
- [57:07]
Tim
Yeah, it's one of those Timothy's. Yeah, not, it's not this Timothy that's talking. It's. It's the one in the Bible.
- [57:12]
April
No, I think it's first. Is it first Timothy 2. Hold on, I'm gonna figure this out.
- [57:17]
Tim
You're looking up.
- [57:18]
April
Yeah. I don't know. Swimming, Timothy. Silent.
- [57:22]
Tim
Yeah, there you go. What does it say first?
- [57:24]
April
Timothy 2.
- [57:25]
Tim
There you go.
- [57:26]
April
That's what it is. But anyway, the amount of times that that was weaponized against me, and I don't mean this in an insulting way, but the men that would use that verse to silence me weren't very smart. And I remember thinking, I know I'm smarter than you, and it does not make any sense that you would somehow get to be an authority over me just because you have a penis and I have a vagina. And I know for a fact I would do a better job than you.
- [57:56]
Tim
100%. 100%.
- [57:58]
April
No offense to those men, but.
- [58:00]
Tim
No, I think full offense. Full offense to those men.
- [58:03]
April
It never made sense to me that just because I was born with a certain part, that I couldn't be in a leadership role over men because I was in class with them, you know, like, I know I, I was acing tests and they were not, and that's not to boost myself, but I just remember thinking, this is stupid that all men could somehow be above me and I was a weaker vessel than all men just because of what was between my legs.
- [58:33]
Tim
A hundred percent. Look, I grew up in complementarian spaces. I definitely had to and still am always, you know, trying to rid myself of misogyny. For sure, some misunderstand, but I never bought the narrative that, you know, women can't preach because they don't have a penis. I just, I thought that was crazy or. One thing that I always got me, I hated it was the notion of, well, Tim, one day when you have a wife, she'll have to submit to you. It's like, oh, no, I, I, oh, she's so even. I mean, even back then, I just hated that language. When Sarah and I were dating, I was like, that's never going to be a thing in my relationships. I just don't buy it, you know, and, but you're right. In this world, I mean, right now, that, or maybe shortly after this, the sbc, the Southern Baptist Convention, they're voting on all kinds of resolutions, you know, and many of them are, are baked on, are based on maintaining men in positions of power while women, the weaker vessels, you know, stay subjugated. I just, I don't understand it. It's ridiculous. But anyway, that's off a topic, but, but, yeah, I'm with you. I, I think it's, it's absolutely absurd.
- [59:38]
April
Yeah, no, it is absurd. Um, but because I, I had that. Well, it's weird though, growing up in that even though I would have been feminist to a degree, because I was still, like, very pro life.
- [59:49]
Tim
Yeah.
- [59:49]
April
And, you know, anti choice. But even though I still, like, believed a more egalitarian theology, I still bought into the narrative that really men would be better presidents because women were too emotional. Like, I, like I could hold those two things together at the same time. Even though I knew that was not true of me.
- [60:09]
Tim
Yep.
- [60:09]
April
I had still convinced myself. Well, yeah, I'm just, I'm more of an anomaly and other women are that way because it's. It's in the water. And I actually grew up in a. More egalitarian like my dad was. He told me I could do whatever I wanted and I shouldn't let a man tell me what to do. Like, he was very empowering of me. But the larger culture that we were in was telling me I would be better if a man was leading me. And even though I didn't agree with that, I still kind of went along with it. And it was very conflicting for me my entire life. So this world also has just a lot of cognitive dissonance.
- [60:49]
Tim
100%.
- [60:50]
April
And it's all connected and I think so. There's this audio of Franklin Graham and James Dobson. So Franklin Graham, we've talked about him many times. He's a son of Billy Graham. He's. He's turned very, unfortunately, very Christian nationalist. He spoke at the Republican convention last summer. He's been very pro Trump, which is very.
- [61:18]
Tim
He should be ashamed of himself. I'm sorry. He should be absolutely ashamed of himself. The way that he's behaved over the past six to seven years. The way he's defended Trump, defended January six in so many different ways. The way he thanked God for President Trump being elected while he shamed President Biden in front of him during the inauguration. It's just, it's abhorrent behavior, in my opinion.
- [61:41]
April
Agreed. So there's this interview and it's older. This was from 2016. January of 2016 is what the article says. He. He went on James Dobson's family talk radio show and James Dobson started Focus on the Family. We could do a whole episode on Focus. Honestly, we could do a whole series on Focus on the Family. But they're talking about gay people and gay Christians and it's, it's a three minute clip. But I just figured we could go through it and listen to it because this type of rhetoric is what I remember. I grew up being taught is what is still being taught. In a lot of churches today. And I think it's just important to address what is said here.
- [62:30]
Tim
I have not heard this whole clip, so first time listening for me. Here we go.
- [62:35]
April
Yes.
- [62:41]
C
We have allowed the enemy to come into our churches. I was talking to some Christians and they were talking about how they have invited these gay children to come into their home and to come to the church and that they would were wanting to influence them. And I thought to myself, they're not going to influence those kids. Those kids are going to influence this parent's children. And what happens is we think that we can fight by smiling and being real nice and loving. We have to understand who the enemy is and what he wants to devour our homes. He wants to devour this nation. And we have to be so careful who we let our kids hang out with.
- [63:27]
Tim
Wow.
- [63:28]
C
We have to be so careful who we let into the churches. And you have immoral people that get into churches and it begins to affect the others in the church and it is dangerous. So I'm going to encourage the church. Okay, hold on to take us.
- [63:48]
Tim
Okay, pause.
- [63:50]
April
He is demonizing gay children.
- [63:54]
Tim
Yep.
- [63:56]
April
Saying do not let them into the churches because of how they will influence other people. And I will say that is. That is a thought in this world that you can catch queerness that it'll like. It's like cooties. You know that if you're around queer people that you might just wake up and be queer because they don't believe that you can be born that way. Like they, they don't realize it's an inherent. It's a trait, it's not a behavior. And it just it and it. And he's doing this on family talk radio. He is now also fear mongering and putting terror into parents minds because outside of. I feel like like the two worst things you could have a kid do if you grow up in this world is if you're a girl, get pregnant or if you're anybody be gay or trans. Of course, when I was growing up it was more focused on gay people.
- [64:49]
Tim
Right.
- [64:49]
April
I feel like it has shifted now to be more on trans people. But SBC is voting this week or last week when this airs on whether or not they're going to start fighting to overturn Obergefell. So like all queer issues are still on the table for Christian nationalists. But it's like this fear mongering that parents it's. It's all based out of willful ignorance.
- [65:15]
Tim
I also love how this is 2016. You said when this was recorded. So this is after the Hollywood Access tapes came out of this guy's messiah in chief bragging about assaulting women. A man who spoke at churches. And Franklin with a straight face is like, we have to keep these people away from church because we allow immoral people in the church. You mean like Trump? You mean like people who sexually assault women? I mean. I mean, Franklin, if you're going to claim, you know, immorality and claim that, you know there's an enemy out there, you're endorsing those things. Oh, God. The hypocrisy is. Is off the charts because the gay kids are the problem here.
- [65:56]
April
Right? And notice he gives Christians justification for being bullies because he says, this is what happens when we think we can fight by smiling and being real nice and loving. He's almost saying, like, we've been too nice. Be a jerk.
- [66:13]
Tim
You're too empathetic. You're. You're too kind. You're too empathetic. You're the fruit of the spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. You know, long suffering. Nope, nope, don't do that. Nope. This is the enemy. And the enemy isn't right. The person who is inciting insurrections. The person who is telling ICE agents to rip families apart. No, no, that's our ally. It is the gay children that families are adopting or that, that or that they're watching that are the enemy here. Could you be any more ass backwards?
- [66:45]
April
I know. All right, you can continue.
- [66:49]
C
So I'm going to encourage the church to take a stand for the Christ to be the church, to take a stand for righteousness. And homosexuality is. We have allowed into our schools. That's why I won't get the school boards back. Homosexuality is taught to be okay in our universities, and you have all these diversity classes and all these nice names that they come up with with promoting and pushing homosexuality.
- [67:16]
Tim
Wow. Wow.
- [67:18]
C
Listen, I'm not here to bash gays. I don't want to do that.
- [67:20]
Tim
Oh, my God.
- [67:21]
C
Because God does love them. And I have people ask me, can gay person go to heaven? Absolutely. Sure. But that gay person is going to have to repent of their sins and turn from their sins, leave their sins. And they have to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and trust him as their Savior. And they have to be willing to follow him as their Lord. But you cannot stay gay and continue to call yourself a Christian.
- [67:50]
Tim
This coming from the man who prayed over the inauguration of another man who was found liable for sexually assaulting a woman. A man who never repents for his sins, a man who only lies through his teeth. This is why Franklin Graham drives me crazy. Because the way he talks, it's so blatantly disingenuous. It's so obvious that you do not give a flying crap about these so called morals that you think the Bible is clear on. You don't care about sexual immorality being rooted out from politics and from culture. Because the man that you endorse and pray over is the epitome of a sexually immoral and depraved man. The man that is leading the country, the one that you thanked God for giving us. God. Is there more to this? There's more. There's a minute left.
- [68:41]
April
There's a. James Dobson is about to say something that I want to get your reaction to. Oh, boy, talk about ignorance.
- [68:49]
Tim
Good.
- [68:50]
C
So we have allowed sin to come into our churches. And if the church doesn't repent, that's why we need to repent of our sins as, as the body of Christ. And then maybe at that point, Dr. Dobson, if we can do that, if they will do that, maybe God will hear from heaven.
- [69:09]
Tim
You know, it's.
- [69:10]
April
It's a whole lot broader than just the gay agenda.
- [69:13]
C
Oh, I know.
- [69:14]
April
Lgbt. The people understand when they're. They're saying, well, you know, if people who have this inclination want to fall in love and want to express this in the form of. Form of marriage and so on. L, G, B, T. You know what the B stands for? Bisexual. That's orgies. That is lots of sex with lots of people.
- [69:41]
Tim
What? No, he did not say that. No, hold on, I gotta back that up and make sure I understood that. Hold on, hold on. One more time.
- [69:52]
April
Bisexual. That's orgies. That is lots of sex with lots of people.
- [70:00]
Tim
No, you ignoramus.
- [70:06]
April
Oh my gosh.
- [70:07]
Tim
Dr. James Dobson. You have a doctorate? Well, from where? From Bob Jones University. Jesus, it's horrible.
- [70:14]
April
They don't know what they're talking about. The B, bisexual means orgies.
- [70:19]
Tim
Lots of.
- [70:20]
April
With lots of people. I honestly, though, I remember thinking that about bisexual people. Like in a weird way, like I could understand gay because that's still part of a binary, right? Bisexual. I was like, oh, gosh, those people are just hypersexual and they just will sleep with whatever they see. Which is why it took me so long to realize I was bi, because I'm like, well, I'm not that.
- [70:42]
Tim
Are you having a lot of orgies these days, April? I mean, you're by Sarah's bisexual I should ask her how many orgies she's having. That's my wife. For those who don't know, are you bisexual? Means orgies. Like, wow, what a jump. What a freaking jump.
- [70:56]
April
It's, that's the thing, like these, like, these lifestyles, like, like me realizing I was bi was the most like uneventful moment and so like not scandalous at all. I was like, oh, you know, I have always found women also attractive. Okay, I'm bi. And that was it.
- [71:16]
Tim
Like la la la la la. Moving on. Yeah, yeah.
- [71:19]
April
Like it doesn't have to be this big thing. It's just like admitting like that's part of who you are. Like Beecher coming out non binary helped me realize who I have been this whole time. And it doesn't have to be demonized. But I will say the few times I found myself being attracted to some female friends, I remember freaking out about it and thinking like, do I, Is there some kind of demon in me? And I would just kind of shut it down and realize that's just, I, I bet all straight women are just also attracted to their friends that they just choose to be straight. Honestly, that's probably why it was easy for me to accept the idea that you choose to do that, you know, because I just chose not to ever act out on those feelings or attractions. But they were always there and, and I was like a die hard conservative Christian following all the rules, doing all the things right. Like genuinely. And I think that's, this is important to note. Even though I was very Christian nationalist, in hindsight I would have never said that at the time. I really was genuinely trying to follow Jesus. Like I believed everything. I believed in hell and I, and I didn't want anybody to go there. And I felt like it was my job to save as many people as possible. Like it was like a calling on my life and I wanted to do good. Like I wanted to please God, I wanted to please Jesus. I wanted to be in God's will and like that. And, and it was wanting to do those things that led me to become queer affirming.
- [72:50]
Tim
Exactly.
- [72:51]
April
I realized I could not follow Jesus correctly while holding such a hateful ideology.
- [72:57]
Tim
That's, that is my critique of fundamentalism. It's not that they don't take their faith in faith serious. It's not that they take their faith too seriously. It's that in my opinion, they don't take it seriously enough. Like you just don't, you don't take the Bible seriously enough. You don't take it on its own terms, like you just do. Not, in my opinion.
- [73:15]
April
Yeah.
- [73:15]
Tim
And also, last thought, and we could probably wrap it up here, but it is also mind blowing that that for these people, just holding the belief personally isn't enough. All of America must also reflect this belief that LGBTQ people should not be able to get married or have the same access to rights that they do. That is what is so insidious, right? Look, Franklin, you live in a free country. The First Amendment protects against the government forcing you to have beliefs in your head or to even live a life that maybe you don't agree with. No one is forcing you to be gay. No one's forcing you to marry two gay people. No one's forcing you or any of your. Maybe your church. No one's doing that. But for you, that's not enough. For you, just the reality that queer people have visibility in society and are celebrated by the majority of Americans makes you so disgusted that you've concocted an entire worldview that says, not only do I have to have this view, but American laws must reflect it as well. My gosh. Vile. Vile. And by the way, that's why I say I don't necessarily care about your theology. I care about how you love your neighbors. I'm. I know a few people I know. I will not say who they are who would tell me. I think as a Christian, biblically, the Bible does not endorse same sex relationships. However, I acknowledge that in a secular society, my queer neighbors should have the same access to the freedoms that I have access to. Fine, fine. I will, I will take that. I will absolutely take that. I don't care what you think about the Bible. I care about what are you advocating for in the public square. For the rights of all of our neighbors, in particular, in this case, our queer neighbors. That takes precedent over anything. And then we'll talk about theology and all that stuff later on. But the, the, the policies that we're fighting for is what matters to me the most.
- [75:12]
April
Yeah. And I think there is a difference between those who are genuinely wanting to follow the teachings of Jesus and are. And are, you know, anti queer because of their theological beliefs, but would change those if they saw, like, theological, like if they saw in scriptures where they could change, which I think they could if they're open minded. But then there are also those who I do think are cruel and cruelness is the point, and, and are. And are kind of hiding their own internal insecurity or hatred through scripture. You know, like, I'd say Hate wrapped in scripture is still hate. And I do think there are people that are genuinely just not good people that are co opting a faith because it's, it's easy, it's easy to weaponize in, in this religion. So I think there's two different types of people that fall in a Christian, like people that can be perpetuating Christian nationalism, but maybe not like, not intending to, you know, like, they just think that's what being a Christian means. But I agree with you that for the, for the, for the first group of people that if, if you're genuinely there, like you're there only because of what the Bible says, but you would be willing to be wrong. At a minimum, you should support queer rights from a societal standpoint because if you believe they're going to die and go to hell, then at least let them live a good life. Like that's like the most basic empathetic thing. Like, even if you believe that, like I just, it just seems like the, the kinder thing to do than to make their life hell on earth and then also go to hell after. Like that's just, it's just not kind and, and it doesn't make sense. God cannot, I don't believe you can worship a God that would send queer people to hell who were literally just born that way.
- [77:09]
Tim
Yep.
- [77:10]
April
And also be an unconditionally loving God. Those two things cannot exist. I would argue you couldn't have a God that would send anybody to hell that for just like not believing the right things that cannot be a loving God.
- [77:26]
Tim
I mean, this is why we have a whole other podcast. Right. Discussing the deep theological questions like that. Because those are valid questions, despite what for many of us, our tradition taught us is a dumb question. Because who are you, oh man. To talk back to God? That's a valid question. And I'm with you 100% on that.
- [77:41]
April
And I just want to bring up some stats. I know we talked about some personal stuff, but the push against anti LGBTQ stuff is new. Now to be clear, queer people, gay people, bi people, orgy people, orgy people and trans people have always existed. They have always existed. And like, just because they weren't a part of the culture war did not mean that they were not existing and they were non transitioning like they, they've always been in our society. It's been right wing Christians who have elevated and escalated this culture war. And I'm going to give you an example. So in 2025, and this is on Truth out, this is according to Erin in the morning. And if you're not following her, you should. She does great work for trans people and queer people in general. So currently, in 2025, there have been more than 850 anti LGBTQ bills filed in the United States. 850. I believe that now for context, in 2019, there were only 60 anti LGBTQ proposed bills, and at the time, only 37% of those were anti trans bills. And then in 2021, it. Like every year in the last several years, there's been more. There's been more and more. And more. So in 2021, there were 153 anti LGBTQ bills, and 80% of those were anti trans.
- [79:13]
Tim
Wow.
- [79:14]
April
So we are seeing this. The reason why, like, I. I am so annoyed with the rhetoric. Like, we're seeing all the Pride month Pride demons. Like, they pull out demon out of Pride Month, and you see, like, Satan's throwing the pride flag, like, all these memes everywhere. Protect the children. But they're all saying, like, we just wish. We just wish straightened, or we wish queer people would stop shoving it down our throats. They're literally not.
- [79:42]
Tim
Right?
- [79:42]
April
Like, what is they, like, Christian nationalists, conservative Christians, maga are the ones shoving their bigotry down everybody's throats. They're the ones making all these anti queer laws that literally they don't need to do. Queer people existing affects them 0%,00. And I also just want to point out too, just theologically, again, we're talking about the Bible. Intersex people exist. Even if you don't believe like that. Like, there are different gender chromosomes out there. It's not like gender is a spectrum and it is complicated. And there is science that backs that up. Up. But even if you don't believe that intersex people are 1, make 1 to 2% of the nation's population. It's the same percentage as natural redheads.
- [80:34]
Tim
Yep.
- [80:34]
April
So as many redheads as you've seen, you have seen intersex people. And those are people who are born with both parts. Born with both parts, which means God made them with both parts, like, at a very basic level. And you can't say that God did not make trans people or queer people, because he literally did, like, they 1 to 2%. And that's just the part you can see.
- [81:00]
Tim
Right.
- [81:00]
April
That doesn't even get into, like, the chromosomal makeup and. And how your mind is wired. And like, all. There's like so many, like, gonads is a great. There was a great. I think. Was it npr? I know, there's a lot of podcasts you can learn about it, but anyway, they exist. That's all I want to say.
- [81:15]
Tim
No, I'm with you. I'm with you. Great show, April. I agree 100%. Are you okay? Are you dying over there? I see you coughing up a lung.
- [81:23]
April
I know. I think I just did, like the longest run on sentence ever, and my throat was like, you need water. You know, clear this out.
- [81:30]
Tim
I love that. Hey, friends, before we sign off, if you've made it this far into the episode, that means you're probably one of our more loyal listeners. If you could do us a favor and give this show a rating and a review on podcasts, a written review would be so helpful. That would be great. If you're watching on YouTube, make sure to subscribe to the channel. Give this video a like. But also love your thoughts on this conversation. Like, was your journey similar. Did you grew up similar to how April and I did? Maybe you didn't. I don't know. But were you someone who held the position of non affirmation and then. And then changed and what was it for you? We do read the comments, so we love seeing them. They're super helpful. But, yeah, thanks for being here, friends. It means the world in April. Another great show. So, yeah, that was awesome.
- [82:11]
April
Well, on Happy Pride again. Happy Pride every day in June, especially.
- [82:17]
Tim
To Franklin Graham and quote unquote, Dr. James Thompson.
- [82:21]
April
Oh, my gosh.
- [82:21]
Tim
Happy Orgy Pride month.
- [82:23]
April
Oh, my gosh.
- [82:24]
Tim
All right, my children are yelling for me. I gotta go.
- [82:27]
April
Okay, fair.
- [82:28]
Tim
Bye, Sam.