26. Political Terrorism, Protests and Parades: Christian Fascism is Here

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tim & April Show – Episode 26: Political Terrorism, Protests and Parades: Christian Fascism is Here

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Tim & April Show
• Host/Author: The New Evangelicals
• Description: Where we unravel faith, politics, and culture.
• Episode: 26. Political Terrorism, Protests and Parades: Christian Fascism is Here
• Release Date: June 20, 2025

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1. Introduction and Juneteenth Observance

Timestamp: [02:10] – [05:45]

Tim and April kick off the episode by celebrating Juneteenth, discussing its significance as a federal holiday commemorating the emancipation of enslaved African Americans in the U.S. They share personal anecdotes about how they came to understand the importance of this day, highlighting April's realization through her admiration for basketball player Dirk Nowitzki.

Notable Quotes:

• April [02:14]: "First things first. Happy Juneteenth."
• Tim [04:24]: "Find out [e-mail] brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council."

2. Trump’s Military Parade: Critique and Satire

Timestamp: [07:28] – [12:04]

The hosts criticize former President Donald Trump's military parade, questioning its display and the stark contrast to recent protests. They satirize the event with humorous commentary on the lackluster crowd turnout and mechanical issues, using sarcastic remarks to highlight their disapproval.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim [09:19]: "We have an almost trillion dollar military budget. No one had WD40."
• April [11:05]: "Isn't that a tank rolling through to a very empty audience."

3. Vance Bolter and Political Terrorism

Timestamp: [12:04] – [21:27]

Tim and April delve into the harrowing case of Vance Bolter, a Christian nationalist preacher charged with the murder of a Democratic lawmaker and his spouse in Minnesota. They discuss Bolter's background, including his tenure on a bipartisan board appointed by Governors Mark Dayton and Tim Walz, countering claims that his appointment signifies Democratic radicalism.

Notable Quotes:

• April [16:08]: "He was first appointed in 2016 by Governor Mark Dayton and then three years later Governor Walz reappointed him."
• Tim [20:55]: "He attended Christ for the Nations Institute... 'Everyone ought to pray. At least one violent prayer each day.'"

4. Christian Nationalism and Evangelical Theology

Timestamp: [21:27] – [33:46]

The conversation shifts to the broader implications of Christian nationalism, emphasizing how certain evangelical teachings can radicalize individuals towards violence. They reference Matthew Taylor’s work on the "Violent Take It by Force" ideology and discuss the influence of charismatic Bible schools in fostering extremist views.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim [25:46]: "Christian nationalist adherence... more likely to believe that our country has gotten so bad it might take some violent acts to set it back on the right course."
• April [23:27]: "Live, active spiritual warfare talk, there's so much military language and war type language."

5. Israel, Iran, and Political Dynamics

Timestamp: [33:46] – [43:56]

Tim and April analyze the complex relationship between the U.S., Israel, and Iran, critiquing Christian Zionism and its impact on Middle Eastern politics. They argue that support for Israel is often rooted in eschatological beliefs rather than genuine concern for Jewish people, highlighting the anti-Semitic underpinnings of such alliances.

Notable Quotes:

• April [34:06]: "The reason why people are pro Israel is not because they support the Jews, it's a hundred percent because they want Jesus to come back."
• Tim [35:22]: "They are simply pawns to usher Jesus back to kill a lot of people."

6. Critique of Mike Huckabee’s Message to Trump

Timestamp: [39:53] – [43:56]

The hosts examine a contentious text message from Mike Huckabee to Donald Trump, displayed on Trump’s Truth Social account. They condemn Huckabee’s praise of Trump, labeling it as demeaning and indicative of the twisted loyalty within Christian nationalist circles.

Notable Quotes:

• April [45:39]: "Mike Huckabee is currently the ambassador to the United States. Ambassador to Israel."
• Tim [47:15]: "If God is ruling over this, then I'm in the wrong universe."

7. Tucker Carlson and Ted Cruz Clips Analysis

Timestamp: [43:56] – [60:35]

Tim and April critique interviews featuring Tucker Carlson and Ted Cruz, focusing on their discussions about Iran and Israel. They highlight Cruz’s lack of knowledge about Iran’s demographics and criticize Carlson for allowing misinformation and anti-Semitic sentiments to surface during his interviews.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim [56:06]: "Tucker Carlson is not a good person. He’s someone who has had Holocaust revisionists on his show."
• April [59:26]: "It’s solely because of America First. It’s not out of the lives that we could save in the Middle East."

8. Audience Interaction and Super Chats

Timestamp: [75:16] – [86:17]

During the live segment, Tim and April engage with audience members through Super Chats, laughing off awkward testimonies and sharing humorous takes on overly romanticized Christian rhetoric. They discuss the blurred lines between worship language and romantic expressions, illustrating the often uncomfortable intersections within evangelical culture.

Notable Quotes:

• April [77:46]: "What does that mean? I mean, I don't want to know."
• Tim [84:42]: "You did not have to say it, um, that was amazing..."

9. Discussion on Christian Purity Culture

Timestamp: [86:17] – [101:40]

The hosts explore the problematic aspects of Christian purity culture, recounting personal stories and critiquing theological misinterpretations that equate sexual acts with spiritual salvation. They highlight how certain teachings can lead to unhealthy relationships with sexuality and perpetuate misogynistic beliefs.

Notable Quotes:

• April [89:17]: "They were all about the wife pleasing the husband."
• Tim [97:04]: "There's no sacrifice involved. It does not feel good. It is just hard."

10. Conclusion and Call to Action

Timestamp: [107:12] – [108:14]

As the episode wraps up, Tim and April reflect on the extensive discussions, reiterate their stance against Christian nationalism, and encourage listeners to subscribe and engage with their content for ongoing dialogues about faith, politics, and culture.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim [107:37]: "Thanks for being here. If you enjoyed this content... we'll talk to you all next Thursday. See ya."
• April [108:13]: "Bye."

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Overall Insights and Conclusions:

• Intersection of Faith and Politics: The episode underscores the dangerous blend of evangelical Christianity with nationalist and extremist political ideologies, illustrating how theological misinterpretations can incite violence and political terrorism.

• Critical Examination of Leadership: Through the scrutiny of figures like Donald Trump, Mike Huckabee, Tucker Carlson, and Ted Cruz, Tim and April highlight the problematic nature of leadership that aligns religious fervor with political power for selfish and destructive ends.

• Call for Accountability: The hosts advocate for a more discerning and accountable approach within religious communities, urging listeners to recognize and confront the harmful impacts of Christian nationalism.

• Personal Reflections: Tim and April share personal experiences and critiques of evangelical purity culture, emphasizing the need for healthier, more compassionate interpretations of faith that prioritize genuine empathy and human dignity over rigid, politicized doctrines.

Recommendations for Listeners:

• Deep Dive Episodes: For a more comprehensive understanding of Juneteenth and its cultural significance, listeners are encouraged to explore the New Evangelicals podcast episode featuring Melinda Hale’s spoken word piece, "Let the Plantation Burn."

• Further Reading: Jeff Charlotte’s Substack articles provide in-depth analysis of Christian nationalism and its roots in evangelical theology, offering valuable insights into the podcast's discussions.

• Engagement: Listeners are invited to engage with the hosts via their podcast platform, Instagram, and other social media channels to continue the conversation on dismantling harmful intersections of faith and politics.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the provided transcript and aims to capture the essence of the podcast discussion. For a complete and nuanced understanding, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Tim]

Psst.

[April]

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[Tim]

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[April]

Apple Cash services are provided by Green Bank. Member fdic.

[Tim]

What is dedication? The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariana. We call him Day Date for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good.

[April]

I want him to be able to.

[Tim]

Sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job. That's dedication. Find out [e-mail] brought to you by the U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council.

[April]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith politics and culture. Hi, everybody.

[Tim]

Dang it, dang it, dang it.

[April]

We both were like, no silence today. We are both. We are both ready to jump right in there. Why don't we ever. Why don't we ever discuss who's gonna intro it ever?

[Tim]

Why. Why do that when we could just try and guess it every single time? Yeah, because we recorded.

[April]

We don't know. It's just. It's a big mystery.

[Tim]

We recorded a really powerful interview that will drop this Monday with Amy McGrath. She's a former Marine, talking about the military and Trump. It's really good. But we. When we hit record and we did our singer, we both froze for like a second. I was like, april, we always do that. We always pause because we're not sure who's gonna say the intro. And then today we both just went for it, and here we are.

[April]

I know we're both like, not today, but, you know, we could have avoided that if we had just had that conversation.

[Tim]

Okay, do you want to do the intro and then just welcome people and tell folks what we're covering today? Do you want me to do it?

[April]

I'll do it. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Tim and April Show. I'm April.

[Tim]

I'm Tim.

[April]

First things first. Happy Juneteenth.

[Tim]

Happy Juneteenth.

[April]

Yeah, I'm actually really excited that this is a federal holiday and. And people get. Get it off now. I guess not everybody, because private companies, I guess, can.

[Tim]

Well, I. You're. You're going to be blown away when I tell you this, April, but Charlie Kirk tweeted today that they are all working. No one at Turning Point USA is getting a day off today for the federal holiday. Are you surprised by that?

[April]

No, I'm not. But, like, why? They're already so awful. And I feel like every day they're like, how can we be awful today?

[Tim]

It's a federal holiday. Like, just give your employees off. So Cassidy, who run the comments, usually during our lives, she's like our producer and she does stuff on the back end for tne. She's an employee and she has the day off. But Charlie Kirk wants you to know that his employees are hard at work today.

[April]

It's always wild to me too, because I, I was not really taught about Juneteenth growing up. Like, I, I feel like I learned about it briefly in history class, but the day June 19 would come and go, and I never really thought about it until. And this is, this is a confession. Okay. I grew up Christian, homeschooled. I didn't have a great full education. Right, right, right. I really learned about Juneteenth because I had to. I had a big crush on Dirk Nowitzki. Do you know who Dirk Nowitzki is?

[Tim]

Yeah, he's the basketball player. Right. He's super tall, super handsome, super white.

[April]

Yes, yes. Seven feet tall. He was like me, but male version. Right. And I was like, solidarity. And, and I. His birthday, because I was learning everything about him, as you do when you're 12. His birthday is June 19th. And when I googled like June 19th, Juneteenth would pop up and explain how it's a celebration of freeing of enslaved people in America.

[Tim]

Yep.

[April]

And that's, that's literally I just learned myself through my crush on Dirk Nowitzki. So thank you, Dirk Nowitzki.

[Tim]

There you go. For teaching me about Juneteenth and for our, for our international audience, a few of you are in the chat asking to explain Juneteenth. It's a holiday celebrated annually on June 19 to commemorate the emancipation of enslaved African Americans in the U.S. it's a very big deal for a lot of reasons. In fact, on the New Evangelicals Podcast, we drop a great 10 minute episode featuring Melinda Hale. She's an amazing artist, singer, songwriter, producer, and board member of the organization. And she did, she did an amazing spoken word on the importance of Juneteenth. It's titled Let the Plantation Burn. It's so good. So I recommend for folks to take a few minutes after they tune into this live to check it out. It's on podcasts now on the New Evangelicals podcast. But yeah, happy Juneteenth to Everyone out there, including you, Charlie, Kirk, you know, an extra. An extra Hardy Juneteenth to you, sir. Ok. That's all I got to say about that. Cope. Cope with the fact that it's a federal holiday, which, by the way, he did tweet. I just checked. He did tweet after he said today all of our Turning Point USA staff will be working. We will not be taking off for the federal holiday right away. He also tweeted Juneteenth should not be a federal holiday. Imagine saying that we should not celebrate the emancipation of enslaved African Americans in this country. April, what just happened to your screen?

[April]

Well, beach was in the comments and said that I looked yellowish and I have not changed the lighting one iota. And Beecher gets on so Beer is my spouse for those that don't know. And they're also a filmmaker and they teach filmmaking and so they like to critique if my lighting is looks good or not. And I don't, I don't think about that. I think this looks fine.

[Tim]

You look good to me. You look good to me. Well, thank you.

[April]

So I literally just went and I turned off my auto white balance and now I'm blue. So I turned the.

[Tim]

That's much better. Much better.

[April]

Yeah, it's I be sure is also not here to help me so.

[Tim]

Well, first off, Beecher, you are the best and it's good to see that you're watching the stream to be clear. And thank you for getting that set up for April. But whatever that April, you look much better that way than you did with with that with the Tintoff. So anyway, friends, look at, look, we have a packed show today, okay? We're going to be talking about Trump's military parade, if you could even call it that. We're talking, of course, about the terrible act of political terrorism done allegedly by Vance Bolter. We'll get into the deep dive on that and the Christian nationalism behind Vance's worldview. And of course, we're going to be talking about the Tucker Carlson and Ted Cruz clips that are going around the Internet. What a time to be alive. So thanks for being here. Welcome into the Live, if you're listening on podcast. Hello. If you're watching this right now, friends, do us a favor. Give this video a like make sure to subscribe to the channel. That way you get notified every time we drop a video or go live. I will say the best part about going live is the people in the audience that's watching it with us. It just feels so great, so great to have all of you here. And thanks for tuning in today.

[April]

Yes, thanks. And leave us a review on Apple podcast. That'd be great if you want to. But also, please. That'd be great.

[Tim]

God's watching.

[April]

It is. So our Monday episode, we have Amy McGrath. She's a former Marine and she is brilliant.

[Tim]

So good.

[April]

She dissects a lot of what Trump's doing with the military, with the National Guard in LA and then the Trump military parade. So we'll go into more details on Monday on that whole thing. But we did just want to talk play this one video that we enjoyed because we talked about it last week. The parade, you know, was calling for rain. It wasn't huge crowds that I could see despite Trump. I think Trump claimed there's like 250,000 people, of course there, which is still. Even if that were true, look at that. It's just a fraction of the amount of people that turned out for the no Kings protest.

[Tim]

Look at those packed stands. April packed the gills. Look. Oh my God, I can't take it. So many people.

[April]

Well, there's this one video that's like squeaky.

[Tim]

Here it is. Yeah. So if you're, if you're listening on podcast, I'm sure you've seen this clip. It's a tank rolling through the parade to a very empty audience. And this is real audio. This was not added in post. Here you go. I mean, look, I'm just gonna say it. We have a almost trillion dollar military budget. No one had WD40. No one, no one had a way to fix the squeaky wheel on the tank to celebrate the military might of our, our, of our armed forces. Go.

[April]

I know the lab.

[Tim]

I'm dying.

[April]

Can I be honest?

[Tim]

Yes, of course. Please.

[April]

Of course I can. I obviously would be petty about this anyway because I, I don't like Donald Trump. I don't wish ill will against him other than I don't want him to be in power. And I, I do. And I enjoy the idea of him having a little bit of a bad day. Same if I, if I can be, if I'm being honest, which I know is not the Love thy enemy.

[Tim]

Well, no, I think, look, I think loving one's enemy does not mean, you know, celebrating the moments where, where one's enemy is miserable. Like, I'm happy that Trump threw this big parade on his birthday. And I'm sure, have you seen the video of him just standing there with.

[April]

A sour, you know, he looked so miserable.

[Tim]

Right? Because look, look, and this is truth telling. He's a megalomaniac. Okay. He's a narcissistic megalomaniac. The man shared a video featuring an AI generated image of him in a gold statue in the middle of Gaza. Okay. This man deserves to be humbled and brought down to Earth that the world does not revolve around him and that sometimes there are events that go terrible that he tries to celebrate himself at. And I'm glad it literally rained on his parade. That made me very happy, and I still hope that he repents.

[April]

You know, I did pray for rain, actually, if I could be honest.

[Tim]

I pray, too.

[April]

Yeah. You know, why not use those old tactics, name and claim it. But also, I was. I was expecting more from that parade based on the way that Trump was talking about it and seeing other military parades from other countries, which are mostly dictator countries, but France did a military parade, which is where he got inspired by the idea. And that parade looked more legit than this parade. With all the money you're spending, you would just think that, I don't know, that the army would march in sync.

[Tim]

Or also many things. Why is my light out? What happened here?

[April]

Oh, it was out the whole time. Sorry I didn't tell you.

[Tim]

My bad. Yeah, what's up with that? Geez. I was gonna also say where. Where is Doge when you need them? Like, what a waste of tax dollars and also military resources. We moved tanks across the nation. We pulled, you know, army soldiers out of, like, their typical duties to have them march down, you know, in D.C. i mean, come on. What a waste. Anyway, is what it is.

[April]

Very much a waste. So we'll talk more about that on Monday.

[Tim]

Yes.

[April]

And be great. I think that's it. Oh, also, we have been keeping track of Trump's golf. We. We forgot to mention it the last couple of weeks. Right now, he's 150 days in office. He has spent 33 days golfing, which equals 22%. So it has gone down a little bit. But 22% of your time as president, golfing is still pretty high. It's impressive, but I think I would rather him be golfing than trying to get us into these world wars that he claimed he was not going to be getting us into.

[Tim]

Well, we will cover that. We will cover that. So much to get to friends. So much.

[April]

Yeah. So I think the biggest story. Okay, not the biggest story, because, my God, too many stories to choose from. But in a normal world, this would have been the biggest news story. Vance Bolter, this guy who is a Christian nationalist preacher, as we Will get into politically assassinated Democrat lawmaker in Minnesota and then attempted to do it again to another one, but that. Surprised. So he, he killed the lawmaker and the spouse.

[Tim]

Yep, that's right.

[April]

In cold blood. And then the police found a hit list. All Democrats.

[Tim]

We should be clear. This is. He's charged with murder, but right now he has not been convicted of any crime. That's where we are in the, in the status here. Just for allegedly. Yeah, for legal. For legal sake. This is, this is the suspicion. Yes, that's right.

[April]

Wait, someone in the comments said he killed their dog too.

[Tim]

What?

[April]

I didn't know that. I mean that. That's not more important than the people, but.

[Tim]

Right, but it still makes it even more. Yeah, yeah. Okay. It's terrible.

[April]

Gosh.

[Tim]

Okay. Yeah. So this guy is, is under. He's been arrested and charged with the murder, attempted murder with stalking. His name is Vance Bolter and he was evading police for several days when this happened. And there was a huge manhunt, one of the largest in the, in the history of Minnesota. And you know what? We're, what we've discovered about Vance. Well, actually, maybe we should first say as expected. Right. And listen, I'll be honest. I think everyone on the Internet, no matter what side you're on of the political spectrum, does this. Right. Where you try and find one little drip of data to make them seem like they're on the other team. And that's why the other team is so terrible. Right. I really do try and avoid doing that at all costs because I have early on I've got myself to a place where I got my foot in my mouth by saying something that wasn't actually true. But I will say that maga, they love to do this. Like they, they will look for any morsel of evidence that this person was maybe a Democrat and then use that as proof right away before any kind of actual data comes out. Case in point, our good friend Megan Basham. All right, she is a self declare journalists, works for the Daily Wire and she tweeted out like right away, the second this happened. There was this, there was this narrative on, On X and other MAGA spaces that, that because apparently at one point he was hired under, I guess the, the Waltz administration that he therefore was a Democrat. I'm not even sure if he was appointed by Waltz. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. And so Megan Basham says Dems hire radicals, indulge radicals, appoint radicals, and then act surprised when they do radical things. And the reality of the situation from all the data we have and by the way, by data, I mean Vance's own words is that this guy was not a Democrat but he was a radical. So Megan's right about that. He was a radical, but he was a Christian nationalist type radical. He was an evangelical Christian. And it appears that. That he held some pretty extreme views. That one kind of incognito for a while and that have come out.

[April]

Can I clarify on the who appointed?

[Tim]

Yes, please clarify.

[April]

So he was first appointed in 2016 by Governor Mark Dayton and then three years later Governor Walz reappointed him. And a spokesperson for Wall's office said this about it, that there are thousands of volunteers of all political persuasions who serve on hundreds of these boards. That particular board has over 60 people on it. The governor does not interview applicants for these roles and he does not know bolter. They are not appointments to a position in the governor's cabinet. These boards and commissions have no authority to make decisions, change laws or implement policies. And like every governor has boards that are bipartisan intentionally. And this was one of those bipartisan boards.

[Tim]

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for explaining that. Of course you're never going to hear that from right wing sources. Right. All you're going to hear is that this was a waltz appointee, therefore you must be a radical leftist. When in reality it turns out he was not. He actually was discipled in the independent charismatic world. There's a really good piece by Jeff Charlotte on Substack that I recommend people reading and looking into. It's super solid and it talks about because Vance explains how he at some point in his career attended Christ for the Nations Institute. That is a charismatic like Bible school in Dallas, I would say. And by. By the way, friends, I'm going to say some things here with certain assumptions that you understand what I'm talking about. If you don't, please go to the New Evangelicals podcast or look at some of our earlier deep dives on this podcast as well with Matthew Taylor and others. Because there's a whole world here that we don't have time to get into. But essentially this person seemed like he was discipled in and baptized into the waters of the independent charismatic world, which has given us the new episodic reformation, which is incredibly Christian nationalists. You know, on its face. This is. I want to show you guys a picture that Jeff shares with on his sub stack at what is on the like when you walk into the admissions office at Christ Foundations Institute, they have a quote by their founder and Jeff took this picture. This, this is a firsthand picture. Let me show you this real quick. This is what it says. Oh, that's not it. Here it is. It says everyone ought to pray. At least one violent prayer each day. This was at the school, on the wall of the school that Vance attended. Now this might be jarring to a lot of you. It's jarring to me. However, in this world, the idea of praying for violent or, you know, having violent prayers or there's a verse that's often cited here that the violent will take it by force. That's what Jesus says. They'll use that to kind of justify the narrative of, hey, we're at war. There's a spiritual war happening right now in America and it's essentially us and God versus our political opponents and Satan. And we have to wage violent war on them in the spirit realm to dismantle their spiritual strongholds. And this is kind of the world that Vance is growing up in. And this is the theology that he's around and inhaling. Now, I want to be clear here and say a couple things off the bat. Number one, at this point, we don't know to the extent that Vance was in this world or exactly what he did or did not believe 100%. We have, we have some assumptions that we can make. We have some estimations. So I want to be clear about that. And number two, not every independent charismatic is, is going to do what Vance has allegedly done. Okay? I'm not saying that all these people are violent or that. Or that they're going to start doing this would not. Absolutely, absolutely. But what we're trying to point out here is that this world and the rhetoric that they employ, they use language like violent prayers. They believe that they are in a war against Satan in the demons. And you know, it's interesting, April, I'm not sure if you saw that, like they released his manifesto or they talked about his manifesto. He had 70 names on it. All Democrats as far as I'm aware. Tim Waltz was on it, Elon Ilion Omar was on it, and several abortion providers, including Planned Parenthood, were on it. Now for you and me, April, who grew up in this world, we know what that signals right away because Planned Parenthood is one of the biggest boogeymen to exist in that right wing world. A lot of these folks in the independent charismatic space believe that abortion is not just murdering a child, but it's actually like, like child sacrifice to a demon or to bail, some might say. In fact, here's A tweet from Sean Foy. I wanted to pull. Sean Foy, who's a pretty big name in the independent charismatic space, says, quote, pro choice Christian Representative Hillary Scholten uses Jeremiah 1:5 to advocate for child sacrifice in Congress. Just when you think you've seen it all, these are bloodthirsty people filled with demonic rage.

[April]

Yeah, this is.

[Tim]

This is the rhetoric that these folks employ. And so knowing what we know about Vance and his background, and we'll play a few clips here in a minute along with the rhetoric that we have been tracking for over two or three years now. Right. And interviewing folks like Matthew Taylor. I'm not surprised that someone in that space believed those things literally and then did this act of violence allegedly taking the lives of, you know, some politicians who were, in their words, you know, on the side of the enemy.

[April]

Yeah, I do want to say CF and I released a statement about the shooter because he. He did a tent there from 1988 until 1990. I've been to CF and I to their chapel services. My dad used to speak in their chapel services because they're in Dallas and that's where I'm from, so I've got connections there, which is just weird. But they totally disavowed what he did. They said it goes against what they teach. And they actually did address the violent prayer quote, because a lot of people have been bringing that up. I want to say what they. Well, I want to tell you what they said. Due to queries and different online sources misinterpreting and misrepresenting Christ for the nation's founders, every Christian should pray at least one violent prayer a day slogan. We should clarify, they say, known for a devoted life of prayer, blah, blah, blah. By violent prayer, he meant that a Christian's prayer life should be intense, fervent and passionate, not passive and lukewarm. Considering that spiritual forces of darkness are focused on attacking life, identity and God, purpose, peace, love, joy, truth, health, and other good things. And then they go on to say that our. The slogan of encouraging our students to incorporate passion in their prayers. Why didn't he just say passion in their prayers? As they contend for what God has for them and push back against evil spiritual forces in a world. Ephesians 6:12 is a central Bible verse which explains the position. For we do not fight against flesh and blood, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world. And then they do not believe in, defend, or support violence against human beings in any form. But I think I grew up in this charismatic world. And in the, the intensity of the spiritual warfare talk, there's so much military language and war type language. And yes, it is centered around spiritual warfare. But if you genuinely believe that someone is possessed by a demon and is murdering babies.

[Tim]

Yep.

[April]

Which they do believe. Then you could own. You can justify taking those people out because you are believing that you're saving babies or you're saving people from, you know, the sin of being queer. Because they believe that send you to hell because it like at a certain. Yes, most people will not take it violently, like actually physically violent, but the, the language that is used can easily be interpreted to perform actual violence.

[Tim]

Exactly correct. You're right. I mean, and again, we've covered this so much on the show, I cannot recommend Matthew Taylor's book enough the Violent Take it by Force. And also he demonstrates and there's so, he does it so, so well that during January 6th insurrection there were people, a lot of leaders in this independent charismatic slash, new episodic reformation world that, that were encouraging their followers to go to the Capitol to pray against the spiritual strongholds and demonic forces. And you know, a lot of them took real action. And so there's absolutely a fruit of believing that there are these spiritual strongholds that are being ruled by Satan and that they have to fight in the spirit by going to physical places to free to, you know, break the chain, so to speak. You know, this is a real thing. And a lot of these leaders use very violent imagery or comparisons. I don't know if we have time now. I didn't plan for this, but I did pull, when I was doing some prep for my own substack on this, I pulled a clip from my interview with Matthew Taylor where he observes that one of the talking points during the last election was Jonathan Cahn and Cheyenne, two big names in that independent charismatic world. They gave these prophecies comparing Trump to Jehu in the Bible and Harris, Kamala Harris to Jezebel in the Bible. It's a story. And what Matthew Taylor says and just trigger warning, you know, for graphic imagery is that that story, Jehu kills Jezebel and her family and like beheads the kids. Like, it's a very violent, gruesome story of like real violence. And these are the type of figures that they invoke and compare one to another, you know, where, where, where Trump is this Jehu King and, and Harris is this Jezebel that has to be slain by the king. That, that, that kind of stoic terrorism, you know, that kind of real intense imagery that can Lead people to do violent things is baked into the independent charismatic world. And I would argue Christian nationalist world at large.

[April]

Yeah, no, I totally agree. We have a couple clips of Vance Volter preaching in Africa. So there's. When you watch it or you're listening to it, there's an interpreter that speaks over him. And I just, I want to point out one. One is more. Well, let's just watch it and then we'll get to the other one. But sounds good first.

[Tim]

Here we go. So there's no sin that God can't take care of? Nothing. There's people, especially in America, they don't know what sex they are. They don't know how their sexual orientation. They're confused. The enemy has gotten so far into their mind and their soul. But this word cuts deeper.

[April]

Because it's living active.

[Tim]

God goes down there and pulls that out and he sets every person free. So that's one clip.

[April]

Yeah.

[Tim]

I mean, this is, this is classic evangelical teaching. This is classic, classic.

[April]

There's nothing new in what he's saying. And the scary part is he sounds like so many Pentecostal preachers that I've listened to my entire life. The rhetoric and the, the cadence. Go to the next clip because I just want to show too. It's not necessarily what he says too, because if you're just watching him in this clip in particular, it just feels like any sort of regular. Regular might be a strong word, but just, just your average charismatic Pentecostal preacher just getting excited about Jesus. So play it.

[Tim]

And I'm just as excited about Jesus right now. And when I get excited, I want to dance. And what Jesus did for me. Ela, are you excited about God? I want to worship him because he's.

[April]

Coming again.

[Tim]

And he's got plans. He's got plans and purposes for each one of you. And for me.

[April]

I wanted to play that because from watching that clip you would not get violent vibes. Like you wouldn't think this man is an imposter. He has, you know, he's going to go out and commit murders because he sounds just like any other Christian Pentecostal preacher. And I will say, I just want to plug something real quick. We didn't talk about talking about this. Have you ever seen the documentary? It's from 1972 called Marjo.

[Tim]

No.

[April]

Okay. It is fascinating. It's a documentary about a real life Pentecostal preacher named Marjo. He had been a preacher since he was like five. Okay, okay. And so he goes into this Pentecostal, he becomes a Pentecostal preacher and he looks so convincing. He's slaying people in the spirit, which is when you lay hands on somebody, the Holy Spirit becomes so powerful that they get knocked out and they fall backwards. He's speaking in tongues, he's performing healings, or people are claiming that they're being healed and he was faking it the whole time. And he brings this documentary people in to interview him in and out of the churches that he's preaching in to just show how easily manipulated these churches are and how easily you can convince people that you're anointed and that you're filled the Holy Spirit while literally not believing any of it. Honestly. I mean, as a Pentecostal, like born and raised person, I. It was very triggering to watch because he sounded so much like my dad in a lot of ways. I mean, my dad really believed it, but it's, it's. You can just be so easily manipulated in that world when you believe that God can speak through people today, that you don't need to go to the text for. And then you can believe all these insane things. And that's how you can eventually get to where you're taught like your own thoughts could be from God. And so if you start thinking these violent thoughts like, oh, I should take these people out and you've convinced yourself you're doing some sort of godly duty, I mean, that's how wars are started.

[Tim]

100% agree. There's. Look, there is on its face, right? People can believe whatever they want. And even this clip of Vance Bolter, right, if he believes that Jesus has freed him, that's great, I'm happy for him. But you and I know oftentimes what this theology is tied to culturally. We know it's tied to fighting against the rights of queer people. We know it's tied to, you know, fighting against, you know, a pro choice position that gives bodily autonomy back to women. We know what it's tied to and that's the concern that we have. It's not that we think, look, we all have our own beliefs about all kinds of things. Some make sense, some don't, right? We all have that. As humans, we're also susceptible to that. But the reason why we talk about, in particular white evangelical theology and Christian nationalism is because they're tied to these culture war perspectives that truly believe we have a mandate and a calling by God to take over the country. Right? The seven Mountain mandate, which we documented here many times, this idea that there are seven spheres or mountains that, that Christians have to climb and conquer entertainment, education, politics, et cetera. Right. These are things that lead to outcomes that actually end up really damaging our, our neighbors who are, who are most vulnerable. And in the case of Vance, I think what we saw here so far, based on what we, based on what we know, is that this kind of ideology is very easily able to radicalize people to do extreme acts of violence. January 6th was a Christian nationalist insurrection. There were Bibles being held. There was a Christian flag paraded through the Senate chambers. There were worship songs being sang. There was all kinds of Christian iconography. There was the appeal to heaven flag. I mean, we have to be honest about this. And by the way, this is supported with data. This is supported with data. PRRI did a whole study on this and they found that Christian nationalist adherence and sympathizers, those are folks who either fully embrace Christian nationalism or maybe who are sympathetic to it or believe some of it. They are, are more likely to believe that our country has gotten so bad it might take some violent acts to set it back on the right course. There are about, about 40%, 38% of Christian nationalists believe that. That's much higher than Christian nationalist skeptics and rejectors. So, so it's not just, oh, this is a one off, this makes no sense. This doesn't fit the narrative. The reason why we're talking about this is because we're concerned that there are more people like Vance with these beliefs that think God is speaking to them to do something very violent that's gonna kill someone.

[April]

Yeah, no, I mean, it's in the theology. And you have people that quote the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible more than they quote the teachings of Jesus. And you have people that are giddy about the Rapture, that are giddy about wars happening in Israel and Iran and they're bringing up Gog and Magog. And this is stuff that I've heard my entire life.

[Tim]

That same.

[April]

You always support Israel. And we're going to, we've got some clips about this that we're going to get into. But that, but that you're excited about about the end of the world because that means Jesus gets to come back and then you go to get to go to heaven. And the way that so many Maga or just evangelical Christians too, love to bring up Sodom and Gomorrah as this big gotcha when it comes to gay people, which by the way, the sin of Sodom was that they were inhospitable. If you read Ezekiel, So it's out of context. But regardless, they use that story and they're almost giddy about the idea of like God could do that again.

[Tim]

Right.

[April]

You know, America could turn, become the next Sodom if we don't enact these righteous Christian laws. So there's violence in the water. It's, there's this getting. And also the belief. I don't know what you were taught, but I was taught that in the last war, the war to end all wars before the second coming of Jesus. Right. That one third of the entire world dies. But it's a good thing because that God just does it because we're so evil and we're so violent that he just wipes out a third of the entire world. Including Jewish people.

[Tim]

Including Jewish people. Right.

[April]

The reason why people are pro Israel is not because they support the Jews, it's a hundred percent because they want Jesus to come back. And most of Israelis in this belief system die with everybody else.

[Tim]

Yes.

[April]

It is a very selfish theology that does not care actually about Israel and incredibly anti Semitic.

[Tim]

Incredibly. So they are simply pawns to usher Jesus back to kill a lot of people. I mean, this is the God. I mean, there was a video of, of Mark Driscoll of a year ago going around where he was saying he can't wait for the revelation. Jesus to come back with the sword in his mouth to, to slay his enemies. This is what they want. They want violence. They want a world not of shalom, not of peace and restoration and reconciliation and wholeness. They want a vengeful God to come back to this earth to destroy their enemies. And that includes many Jewish people who either repent and become Christian or who don't repent and end up burning in hell forever. Okay, that, that, that doesn't protect Jewish people at all. Either either erases their identity and, and their heritage or it throws them in hell. Which, by the way, I just want to make the connection really quick. This is why so many white evangelicals voted for Trump, because in many ways Trump is the incarnated version of the God that they worship. Incredibly vengeful, incredibly wrathful, incredibly jealous. You know, it cannot wait to punish his enemies. That's what they see in Trump needs 247 non stop worship. There's, there's always correlations here. And yes, it's absolutely tied into the end times. Have you heard that empathy is now a sin? Yeah. If that's the case, then let's sin boldly, friends. Because if loving your neighbor, caring for the oppressed and fighting for human dignity makes us part of the dangerous woke mob. Then we hear the new evangelicals are guilty as charged. We're out here standing with our queer neighbors, calling out inhumane deportations, naming the evils of fascism, and yeah, believing in fundamental human rights for everybody, no matter their race, gender, identity or ability. We believe this not because we're politically partisan, but because of our allegiance to the radical way of Jesus. And this rebel cause of radical empathy runs on support from dangerously empathetic people like you. As a nonprofit, we here at TNE keep all of our content resources and our community app TNE Connect completely paywall free. But in order to keep this work going, we need your help. That's why we're asking a thousand of you to become monthly donors. $10 a month is all it takes to help us keep producing content, and it will also enable us to add new content creators to our platform, educating you on Christian nationalism and helping you find a better path forward in faith, politics and culture. When you donate, you'll be entered to win heavenly rewards for your empathy crimes like books, to expand your heresy merch like this, and even a chance to be on our podcast. Your donation funds a joyful rebellion with diverse voices, a community space away from the algorithm, and helps spread a better path forward in faith, politics and culture. So join us Donate now and confess your sins of empathy on our donor wall so you can tell the whole world about your depraved actions and and let's build something better together. Link is in the show Notes.

[April]

Hi, my name is Courtney, I live in London, United Kingdom and I am a TNE monthly donor. I'm a domestic abuse survivor and was raised with John MacArthur and purity culture rhetoric. I left my abuser in September 2020, moving from LA to southern Utah. I had been a Cali girl my whole life, so seeing the Christian nationalism and patriarchy present in Utah gave me quite a sh. During that time I began deconstructing and making sense of my abuse and how my church upbringing and political affiliations contributed to it. It's a painful discovery that I'm still coming to terms with. I've never been a big believer in tithing, but you guys gave me a mission I can get behind. I hate that term now, but I don't know of any other more fitting. The US is on a trajectory mirroring that of 1930s Germany, and if something isn't done soon to circumvent that, I worry what the repercussions would be not just for the US but for the whole world.

[Tim]

Do you want to get into Mike Huckabee's tweet or message.

[April]

I do want to get into that. I didn't know if you wanted to play, which is kind of changing tones, but. But Donald Trump was asked if he was going to call Tim Walls in response to the shooting.

[Tim]

And I don't have that clip.

[April]

I sent it to you. Just.

[Tim]

I don't think I. Oh, you did now? Okay, I will grab it then. I'll grab it. Hold on.

[April]

We don't have to. I just thought it's.

[Tim]

Is the audio okay? Because the way I heard the audio was really hard to hear. Let me see.

[April]

Well, they're in an airplane, so it probably is hard to hear.

[Tim]

Let's see. Friends of this sounds. Yeah, it's a little hard to hear. Let's see. We'll give it a shot.

[April]

On Minnesota, there were a lot of horrific details that came out today about the suspect who's been charged there. Have you called the governor yet or been able to speak to any of them?

[Tim]

I don't really call him. He's. Look, he appointed this guy to a position. I think the governor of Minnesota is so whacked out. I'm not calling. Why would I call him? I could call him, say, hi, how you doing? The guy doesn't have a clue. He's a mess. So, you know, I could be nice to call him, but why waste time? Wow. Wow.

[April]

Like, wow. So immature and so petty. This is a governor of a state that just had political assassination successfully and then more attempts. And those attempts were fueled by rhetoric by Trump and he doesn't have the audacity to call the governor and just say, hey, we're with you. We're so sorry this happened.

[Tim]

Okay?

[April]

Walls was on the hit list.

[Tim]

Let's flip the script. Let's imagine that Marjorie Taylor Greene was assassinated by, you know, antifa. Let's just. Let's. Let's just build the ultimate, you know, right wing, like, almost dream scenario, right, where an antifa operative is so radicalized by left wing ideology, they go to MTG's house and they assassinate her, her dog and her husband. And Joe Biden is president and Joe Biden is asked, are you going to call the governor of Georgia and are you going to say anything? And Biden goes, why waste time? That guy's so whacked out. Why would I waste time doing that? Could you imagine, could you imagine what Charlie Kirk would be tweeting right now, what Matt Walsh would be tweeting right now? Could you imagine the level of hatred, animosity, and frustration and anger they'd be lobbing towards Biden. Right. Which, by the way, I would argue if Biden said that justifiably. So, like, how dare you. You're the. You set the tone. You are the President of the United States of America. The fact that Trump can say this and it's not even a major headline because it's just expected, it just shows you how low the bar is for Trump. I also want to point out while we're here that a senator, I think it's Mike Lee is his name. A couple days ago, before all this happened, he, he tweeted this. Yeah, Mike Lee, he said, make it stop. Condemn all political violence. He was talking about, I guess, some of the something that happened at a no Kings protest in Salt Lake City. There was a shooting. Ok. Shortly after this tweet, when there was the assassination in Minnesota, Waltz. Mike Lee, sorry, tweeted Nightmare on Waltz street, trying to make a joke about the assassinations that happened in Minnesota. Again, this is.

[April]

He stole Waltz like Tim. Well, actually, it's Tim Walls, so he actually misspelled it.

[Tim]

He's. Look, I'm just gonna say this guy's an idiot, okay? There. He's. He's a. He's an idiot. And he's also like, how dare you? What. How do we, how do we, like, so many people, just accept this as, well, it's in bad taste, but it's not a big deal. No, it's a huge deal. This is the federal lawmaker. I mean, it's crazy.

[April]

And Tim Walls was on that hit list. If Vance is not detained as quickly as he is, there's a chance Tim Walls gets assassinated. Or if he was the first one he went after. And to make a joke about it, like it's somehow Tim Walls his fault.

[Tim]

And these are the people that white evangelicals go, you're doing the Lord's work. That's what I. It just the level of bewilderment and frustration and rage. I have that white evangelicals, Adam, at a margin of 72%, said Trump is doing a great job morally and ethically in his first 100 days in office. Makes me sick to my stomach.

[April]

I know, I know. Yeah. Okay, now we can get to Mike. You want to start with Mike Huckabees?

[Tim]

Yeah. Let's get into the end time stuff. This is really important because, you know, what's happening right now between Israel and Iran. A lot of pastors, and we don't have the video here, but Josh Howerton's one of them. They're almost, like, foaming at the mouth with glee that this is happening. Like, oh, the Bible talked about this. The Bible talked about when this would happen. Signaling, signifying that we're closer to the end times as children are dying, as people were having bombs dropped on their heads, evangelical pastors like Josh Howard turn like, ooh, ooh, maybe God's coming back soon. It's. It's. It's sickening, the level of dehumanization.

[April]

I'm so. I'm honestly really disappointed in Mike Huckabee. I mean, I'm disappointed in all of them, let's be real. But I feel like Mike, when he first came onto the political scene, I mean, he was a pastor, he had this, like, kind of grandpa vibe to him, and then, like, he's just become more and more Christian nationalist as the days and years have passed on, and now he. He's just as radical as all of them. Anyway.

[Tim]

Yeah. You want to explain this thing? So. So Trump tweeted this, or truth. Whatever you call it, this.

[April]

On his Truth Social account. It's a. It looks like a text message.

[Tim]

It's a long one.

[April]

It's a screenshot of a text message from Mike Huckabee to Donald Trump that Donald Trump screenshotted and then posted. So Donald Trump says, from Mike Huckabee, a pastor, politician, ambassador, and a great person is Mike Huckabee. Is he currently the ambassador to Israel?

[Tim]

Yes.

[April]

Okay, so Mike Huckabee is currently the ambassador to the United States. Ambassador to Israel. He texts Trump and says, Mr. President, God spared you and Butler, Pennsylvania to be the most consequential president in a century, maybe ever. The decisions on your shoulders, I would not want to be made by anyone else. You have many voices speaking to you, sir, but there is only one voice that matters. His voice. I am your appointed servant in this land, and it am available for you. But I do not try to get in your presence often because I trust your instincts. No president in my lifetime has been in a position like yours. Not since Truman in 1945. I don't reach out to persuade you, only to encourage you. I believe you will hear from heaven, and that voice is far more important than mine or anyone else's. You sent me to Israel to be your eyes, ears, and voice and to make sure our flag flies above our embassy. My job is to be the last one to leave. I will not abandon this post. Our flag will not come down. You did not seek this moment. This moment sought you. It is my honor to Serve you, Mike Huckabee. Gross, gross, gross, gross, gross, gross, gross, gross.

[Tim]

Yeah, I'm. I.

[April]

Also like the fact that he's a pastor. What? Donald Trump. Are they saying that they think he's listening to a voice of God? What world are we living in?

[Tim]

I mean, the most. I mean, April, my head is jammed up knowing where to even start with such a. A, like, just grotesque piece of writing. Oh, my heavens. I do not. This guy, Donald Trump, was found liable for sexual assault. This man said he would date his own daughter, and if she wasn't his daughter. He brags about grabbing women. He dehumanizes people. He calls immigrants poison to the blood of society. And Mike Huckabee thinks that this guy is hearing from God in a way that no one else is. If that's true, send me to hell. If that's the God that's ruling over this, then I'm in the wrong universe. Just send me down to hell because I'm not sharing space with a God that. That says, this is my chosen servant. This unrepentant, megalomaniac, narcissistic buffoon who only thinks about himself. And Mike Huckabee, who's a so called pastor, so called man of God, should be absolutely mortified at the level of bootlicking and groveling that he's participating in in this text thread. It is. It is gross. It is like, dude, get a room. Like, my God, what is wrong with you? Talking. Talk about. About. About kissing. The ring of power. You know, there's a story in the New Testament of Jesus being tempted to have all the power on earth if he just bowed the knee to the devil, right? And Jesus rebukes the devil. The devil with scripture. Mike Huckabee bows his knee and goes, ooh, can I lick the ring and kiss it and wear it and can I just hug it all day? I'm just obsessed with this ring of power. That's what this is. It is gross.

[April]

He's like, I trust your instincts. The instincts of the man that said, why would he call Tim Walls? Because he's whacked out.

[Tim]

Yeah, yeah.

[April]

The guy who says assassinated.

[Tim]

The guy who says, 2 Corinthians, you would trust his instincts. The guy. Hold on. Wait, wait. This is it.

[April]

He said he's never had to ask God for forgiveness.

[Tim]

Wait, April, I. I found it. We have. We have. Oh, did I pull it? I did, I did this. This is a great time to play this clip that we found online today of Trump talking about a flagpole.

[April]

Okay.

[Tim]

All right, let's do it, friends. This was shared by the Democrat official account on TikTok. So I therefore assume it is not AI. This is real. And this is what he said about a flagpole the other day. Just listen to this. A lot of choices putting it on that hill, putting it different places. It's such a beautiful poll. We thought we'd put it near. I mean, it always looks best when it's near a Doral. I put it right near. I have a similar pole. And these are the best poles anywhere in the country or in the world, actually. They're tapered. They have the nice top. You know, I don't know if you people are aesthetic. You know, they're the fake news. I don't know about. I don't know, but it's a very exciting project to me. Well, there you go, Mike Huckabee. Trust this guy's judgment.

[April]

They have a nice top.

[Tim]

A nice top.

[April]

The most beautiful in the world.

[Tim]

Don't worry. The most consequential president maybe in our. In history right here, guys.

[April]

I maybe. I don't know that I necessarily disagree that he's the most inconsequential president before. Completely. I also just want to point out, too, my. I have a protest sign. It's my go to. This year is protest season, by the way, and it's Trump or Jesus can't serve Both. People get so mad about that sign. I get flipped off more for that sign than, like, any of my other signs. But when I posted it online, I got a lot of comments from MAGA that's like, nobody serves Trump. And I just want to say, Mike Huckabee, right there at the end, honor to serve you.

[Tim]

Yeah. Yeah.

[April]

People are 100% serving Trump, and I stand by that. You cannot serve. You cannot follow Jesus and follow Trump. They are two opposite. They are the opposites. They teach the opposite things.

[Tim]

Yes, Totally. Totally.

[April]

I'm so tired of them trying to gaslight me like, you can't. You can't do it anymore. I've seen too much. Y' all are on the wrong side of history. You can miss me with your fake piety.

[Tim]

100%. Preach. Trump is Antichrist. He represents everything that Christ does not. His kingdom is of this world. He does want power and control. The first are first, and the last are last. Crucify your enemies. Don't love your enemies. Screwed are the poor. Don't take care of the sick. Don't visit the mass. Incarcerated. In fact, you should incarcerate more people. This is Trump's gospel. It is the literal opposite of the words of Jesus found in the so called inerrant and infallible Bible that Mike Huckabee so called believes in.

[April]

Yeah, it is.

[Tim]

And this is why we left, April. This is why you and me and millions of others said, get me the hell out of here. Because you're obviously liars. Like, you're not telling the truth. You cannot tell me you have a biblical worldview or that you're a Christ follower and then say things like, the decisions on your shoulders, I would not want to be made by anyone else. You have many voices speaking to you, sir, but there is only one voice that matters. His voice. I am your appointed servant in this land. Oh, dude. Mike, just shut up, dude. Like, get out of here.

[April]

Gosh. Anyway, well, speaking of Israel, there's a lot happening, a lot going on. Impending doom, perhaps. That's like. It is really weird, like, trying to live right now, because what is happening, right, with Iran and Israel and now America, and it's. It's. It's actually very scary. But there is some infighting happening over Trump's involvement.

[Tim]

Yeah, this guy.

[April]

Yeah. Tucker Carlson, the worst person, you know, is making good points.

[Tim]

Yeah, that's how you know it's bad. Yeah, that's how you know it's bad. Like, wait, this bro. Why am I agreeing with this bro? Something's wrong.

[April]

Yeah, so he had Ted Cruz on, which honestly, I don't know who I dislike more between Tucker Carlson and Ted Cruz. I think perhaps Ted Cruz being from Texas, something about him.

[Tim]

Never like that, man.

[April]

Yeah, I did vote for him, though, one time. You did?

[Tim]

Yeah.

[April]

April, I know.

[Tim]

That should be national news. That's. That's a headline right there.

[April]

To be fair, that was back when I didn't even know who Ted Cruz was back then. That was just when I voted R straight down. It was like one of my first elections.

[Tim]

So author of Star Spangled Jesus voted for Cruz in past life. There you go.

[April]

Yeah, except for the author part is literally all about me, how I used to be conservative and Christian. Not surprising.

[Tim]

So, yeah, so Tucker had Cruise on his show. There are two clips we're gonna play. First, we're gonna play this clip of. Of Tucker challenging Cruz on his knowledge of Iran. Let's just. Let's just watch this and then we'll come back and. And we'll give some. Some commentary. Just buckle up, friends, if you haven't seen this yet, here we go. Living around. By the way, I don't know the population at all? No, I don't know the population. You don't know the population of the country you seek to topple? How many people living around 92 million. Okay, yeah. How could you not know that? I. I don't sit around memorizing population tables. Well, it's kind of relevant because you're calling for the overthrow of the government. Why is it relevant? Whether it's because 90 million or 80 million or 100 million. Why? Because if you don't know anything about the country. Country I didn't say I don't know anything about. Okay. What's the ethnic mix of Iran? They are Persians and predominantly Shia. Okay. You don't know anything about Iran. So. Okay. I am not the Tucker Carlson expert on a ranch. You're a senator who's calling. You're the one who knows about the country. No, you don't know anything about the country. You're the one who claims they're not trying to murder Donald Trump, who can't figure out if it was a good idea to kill General Soleimani.

[April]

And you said it was bad.

[Tim]

They're trying to murder Trump. Yes, I do. Because you're not calling for military strikes against them in retaliation. And if they really believe that carrying out military strikes today. You said Israel was right with our help. I said we. Israel is leading them, but we're supporting them. Well, this. You're breaking news here because the US Government last night denied. The National Security Council spokesman Alex Pfeiffer denied on behalf of Trump that we were acting on Israel's behalf in any offensive capacity. We're not bombing them. Israel's bombing them. You just said we were. We are supporting Israel. Senator, if you're saying the United States government is. We're with Iran right now. People are listening. There you go. That's clip one.

[April]

Yeah.

[Tim]

Holy crap. Is.

[April]

I got to admit, that brings me joy.

[Tim]

Oh, oh, it sparked so much joy for me.

[April]

Yeah. Joy has been sparketh.

[Tim]

But can I add. Can I add some thoughts to this really quick? Because this is complicated. Right. I want to just say two things. Two. I want to. I want to make two points here. Number one, first off, let's be very clear. Tucker Carlson is not a good person. Okay.

[April]

No.

[Tim]

Tucker Carlson pushed white supremacist talking points while he was on Fox News. He's someone who has on. Who has had on Holocaust revisionist people trying to downplay if the Holocaust really happened, how we think it happened. He's someone who platformed Andrew Tate and let Andrew Tate lie through his teeth. About being a serial abuser, which makes me so angry at Tucker because clearly, Tucker can challenge his guests if he wants to. Clearly, Tucker can do his research, can call out people, but he chooses not to when it comes to things like Holocaust, revisionist history and blatant misogyny. Right. So I say this. I. Here's why I say this. I know people who are listening or watching are very educated, and they. They know this, but a lot of people are going to see this and think, oh, maybe Tucker is turning over a new leaf. He is not turning over a new leaf. Tucker is a grifter. Tucker will go wherever he needs to go to stay in the cultural limelight to keep making money. I would also say that in my opinion, the reason why Tucker is so anti Israel is not because he really cares about the Palestinian people or about the Iranians, and that he believes that they're all made in the image of God and therefore are worthy of love, dignity, and respect. I think it's more that Tucker is anti Semitic ultimately, and. And also has a national. A nationalistic America first model, and this does not fit into that. But make no mistake, if America, If. If it did make sense to put America first by bombing Iran or by bombing Gaza, Tucker would be all about it. I just need to say that as we go through these clips, because I don't want people mistaking us, sharing them, and saying, wow, Tucker owned Cruz as some kind of endorsement. We are not endorsing Tucker in any way, shape or form.

[April]

Right. Well, it's the same thing with Marjorie Taylor Greene. She's also speaking out against getting involved with the war in Israel and Iran at all. But it's solely because of America First. It's not out of the lives that we could save in the Middle East. It's 100% for selfish reasons. But, you know, a broken clock still gets it right twice a day.

[Tim]

100%.

[April]

And I do. I think we take our small wins. The infighting that is now that has begun, you know, when you're in. When two people you don't like are going at each other.

[Tim]

Right.

[April]

Just let them fight.

[Tim]

Bravo. Keep it going.

[April]

Take each other down.

[Tim]

I mean, he eviscerated Cruz in that clip of. He's just. He showed that. That Cruz has no idea about anything he claims to purportedly know about. And this is a federal lawmaker. And I think we need more of that. We need people. And by the way, Jon Stewart does these kinds of interviews sometimes really well also. But, like, Tucker destroyed Cruz and got under his skin. And proved that he doesn't know anything about the country, that he supports the US Getting, you know, involved with the triumph bomb. It's crazy, right?

[April]

And don't forget to, like, where was this energy when Tucker interviewed Vladimir Putin?

[Tim]

Oh, my. That or went to Russia. Look how, look how cheap the bread is.

[April]

Oh, my gosh. Like, yeah, still problematic, but.

[Tim]

Exactly.

[April]

We can take our small wins 100%, you know, because we need people to, to stand up against fascism, even if it's for the wrong reasons.

[Tim]

I, I, I agree. Should we play the other clip here? That's, I think, even more damning.

[April]

Okay, yes, please.

[Tim]

This, this we're going to get into, because there's so much here it's worth talking about. Listen to this clip and then we'll get into it. Growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible, those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed. And from my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of things, of those who bless the government of Israel. Those who bless Israel is what it says. It doesn't say the government of, it says the nation of Israel. So that's in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe that. Where is that? I can find it to you. I don't have the Scripture off the tip of mine. You pull out the phone and use the. It's in Genesis, but. So you're quoting a Bible phrase. You don't have context for it. You don't know where in the Bible it is. But that's like your theology. I'm confused. What does that even mean? Tucker, I'm a Christian. I want to know what you're talking about. Where does, where does my support for Israel come from? Number one, because biblically, we are commanded to support Israel. But number two. Hold on, hold on. You're a senator and now you're throwing out theology. And I am a Christian. I am allowed to weigh in on this. We are commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel. We are commanded to support Israel. And we're. What does that mean? Israel? We're told those who bless Israel will be blessed. But hold on. Define Israel.

[April]

This is important.

[Tim]

Are you kidding? This is a majority Christian country. Define Israel. Do you not know what Israel is? That would be the country you've asked, like, 49 questions about. So that's what Genesis. That's what God is talking about, Israel, the nation of Israel?

[April]

Yes.

[Tim]

So is that the current borders, the current leadership? He's talking about the political entity called Israel. He's talking about the nation of Israel. Yet nations exists. And he's discussing a nation. A nation was the people of Israel is the nation. They're the descendants of Abraham. Is that the same as the country run by Benjamin Netanyahu right now? Yes, it is. And by the way, it's not run by Benjamin Netanyahu as a dictator. It's a democratic country that elected. He's the prime minister. Right. But just like, you know, America is the country run by Donald Trump. No, actually, the American people elected Donald Trump. The same principle. This is silly. I'm talking about the political entity of modern Israel. Yes. And that is. You believe that's what God was talking about in Genesis. I do. But that country's existed since when? For thousands of years now. There was a time when it didn't exist and then was recreated just over 70 years. But I'm saying I think most people understand that line in Genesis to refer to the Jewish people, God's chosen people. That's not what it says. Okay, Israel. But you don't even know where in the Bible it is. Oh, my gosh. Can I just say, by the way, I just need to say the points that Tucker is making is exactly the points that many scholars who are anti Christian Zionists have made. Right. Those are the real arguments because they're true. Like the nation state of Israel we're talking about today is not the same Israel we read about in Genesis. It doesn't mean that we support the government of Israel. It doesn't mean that we have to support Netanyahu. It has nothing to do with any of that. And Tucker just pokes all the holes in the dogma that, that. That Christian Zionists bring to the table.

[April]

Right.

[Tim]

And again, it just shows that when Tucker wants to, he could be a great interviewer and destroy people.

[April]

I know, I know.

[Tim]

Kills me. Use your power for good, Tucker. Come on.

[April]

Well, and if you're going to be a biblical scholar and actually take the text in context, I mean, we're talking about a book that was written thousands of years ago that talks about blessing the nation of Israel, the current nation of Israel, like the government of Israel was not established until 1948.

[Tim]

Yes.

[April]

And you think that that text, when that was written, was imagining Israel as it is today.

[Tim]

Right, right. And by the way, it doesn't absolve just because. Okay, Just because it says that even in Genesis doesn't absolve Israel. It doesn't give them blanket immunity. Is the nation state of Israel can still do bad things, which they are starving the Palestinians Taking over the land that has been the land that has been the ancestral land of Palestinian people for hundreds and hundreds of years, right? Massive colonization. The west bank is totally owned and controlled by Israel. The famines in Gaza, the amount of bombs drop on the heads of children in Gaza, how they've taken out all infrastructure in Gaza. Okay, like, that doesn't somehow. That. That little Bible verse, that one verse, by the way, that, that, that Cruz takes so literally doesn't absolve Israel from those things. But think about it like this April, Ted Cruz takes that little section in Genesis so literally, hold that children be bombed to death and defend it. But the words of Jesus about taking care of the sick and the poor and visiting those in prison, right, for, for Cruz, are that he's. They're not talking about. About government there. That, that should not impact our government policy when it comes to affordable health care. Or when Jesus says, for example, liberate the oppressed, well, obviously we can't apply that to our government. But like five words in Genesis, five words is what allows the bombing of children to go on in Gaza. You've got to be kidding me, right? And again, we're taught in our circles that people like Cruz and others are real Christians who have a biblical worldview. Get the hell out of here. It's bullshit.

[April]

Well, they. They claim they take the Bible literally, which is why they do that, but they don't take it literally because, like, think of the justification that they use for deporting immigrants right now. When Jesus said, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, and they said, sir, when were you ever a stranger? We did not welcome you. He said, I tell you the truth, whatever you did to the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did to me. And the way they justify getting around that scripture from Jesus, they say, oh, well, he wasn't talking about illegal citizens. He wasn't talking about illegal immigrants with borders. It was a different time back then. There weren't really borders as we know now. And it's different because that doesn't apply to people that break the law. Like, they cut. They come up with all these little caveats in the mental gymnastics, they start going to justify why they are clearly in defiance of that teaching of Jesus. But then when it comes to those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel will be cursed. They're like, we have to take that literally. And that means Israel. And we're like, okay, but that the Israel we know today did not exist back then. Like, it's always Israel. It doesn't matter. It literally all the time.

[Tim]

Exactly.

[April]

It's like so annoying the way that they accuse us of cherry picking the Bible, which everybody cherry picks because it's impossible to follow the Bible exactly 100% because there are conflicting worldviews within the text. Yes, everybody cherry picks preacher. Some people are just self aware enough to admit it because you can use the Bible to liberate or you can use the Bible to oppress, and I choose to use it to liberate. But they got to do their little, their little mental gymnastics and they hold their cognitive dissonance to somehow show that we're the spiritual ones because we actually follow the word of God while they blatantly disregard every single red letter.

[Tim]

They bastardize the word of God. She's gonna say it. That's what they do. They use it. They pillage it, they colonize it. They, they, they, they rip it out of its context to maintain power and control. Have you heard the newest argument? Is that that passage about the least of these is talking. It's Jesus talking to other Christians, that we should take care of other Christians first. Have you heard this from like Alvy's sucking other folks? Which, by the way, could be a legitimate interpretation. When Jesus says, what you do to these brothers and sisters of mine, you do unto me, he definitely could be talking about other disciples of Jesus or followers of Jesus, which, by the way, just to be clear, doesn't change anything. Because the majority of people facing deportation in America who are immigrants are Christians. They're Catholics. 54% are Catholic. 13% are evangelical. Only about 15% are non religious. So even if that was accurate, let's say that they're correct. That when Jesus says, what you do for the least of these, you do unto me, he's talking about other Christians. Then it doesn't change anything regarding the inhumane deportations of other Christians in America. We could even call that Christian persecution. I mean, again, the people who are like waiting to be persecuted, turns out, April, are the ones doing the persecuting of other Christians in America who got here through all different means that they don't deem legal or the right way or good enough. And we know by the way that the idea of illegal immigration is such a misnomer. Most people who are being kidnaped by ICE have been here for years, have court orders to be here for years are pending in the immigration system because the courts are so backed up. They're not people who are just these criminals trying to, you know, like, break into houses. That's a very small amount of people who, by the way, all of us agree, right, we shouldn't have people who want to do crime here, et cetera. So I'm just saying, like, like it's so annoying because even if that interpretation was correct, it doesn't change anything because most of the people that you're trying to kick out of here in the name of God actually are Christian. Which only proves to me that for these people, their allegiance is actually to the way of empire. Not Christianity, not Christians, not Jesus. They care more about maintaining a white America than they do about protecting their brown brothers and sisters who are immigrants here in this country.

[April]

Yeah, that's, I mean, a good majority of immigrants, especially from Mexico, who are here are Catholic. Yes, they are Christian.

[Tim]

There's a study done just, just so folks know, again, we always had the data study done by the national association of Evangelicals in partnership with the Catholic Church, and they did a whole study on who are the immigrants that were, that, that are being, are facing these deportations. The majority of them, including DACA recipients, by the way, are Catholic. But of course, April, we know, because you and I grew up in this world that many of those evangelicals don't think that Catholics are real Christians. Right. And that's why we call it Christian supremacy. These are people who are so narrow in their theology and their fundamentalism that they think that, that, that, that the tradition that predates their own by a thousand plus years, the Catholic tradition, they're not true Christians, but the Protestants just like them, are the only real believers. It is so anti intellectual. I mean, your head has to be so far in the ground to believe that. But they do. They do.

[April]

Yeah, well, and they also ignore the fact that there are Christian Palestinians and there's Christian Iranians. Like they, they exist everywhere. And, and, and I want to be clear too. When we, when we are condemning Israel and what Israel is doing, we do not wish ill will on regular, innocent Israeli civilians too. The same way that we would disagree with a lot of Iran's government and what they're doing. But Iranians are innocent lives that deserve dignity as human beings. War is not good for anybody. Honestly, I really wish Netanyahu, Trump, Putin, all these big time leaders who are bringing down all these innocent, literally killing thousands and thousands of people. And who knows where this is going to end up? It's very scary. But why can't we throw them on a boxing rink and just let them go one on one, right? You know, y' all are the Ones that have the problem.

[Tim]

Right.

[April]

Leave the. The citizens out of it.

[Tim]

They. They seem so emotional. You know, I mean, I. They seem like they're just. They're led by their emotions and they're just very like. Like they're just so insecure. It's. Huh. Maybe we should. Maybe we should have more women lead, be in charge, honestly. Because the men aren't. They're not batting 100, I'll tell you that much.

[April]

No, no. The boys are fighting.

[Tim]

I do want to. I want to just really emphasize what you just said, April, because, again, I think we live in a social media world of binaries. Right? And. And we can walk and chew gum at the same time. We can be anti Zionists and very much in favor of protecting our Jewish neighbors. Both of those things are possible, right? When we condemn Israel, we're condemning the nation state, the government of Israel that is dropping bombs on the heads of children. That doesn't mean that we think Jewish people don't have a right to exist peacefully or even have a place to call their own nation. We're not saying any of that. What we are saying, though, is how the nation state of Israel is acting in partnership and with the support bipartisanly of. Of the US Is inhumane and bad. That does not make us anti Semitic. Anti Semitic is believing that if you can usher in the end of the world sooner than later, then Jesus will come back, probably kill most of the Jews. A few might get saved and go to heaven, and somehow, you know, that's what God wants. That's anti Semitic. Anti Semitic is believing that the Jewish people control all the media and the banks. That's antisemitism. Antisemitism looks like having Holocaust revisionist historians term used loosely on your show. Right? That is not the same thing as saying that Palestinian lives matter and that any government, including the Israeli government, bombing them to death, committing mass genocide. Right. Should be rightfully condemned.

[April]

Yeah, agreed. I also just want to point out too, there was a tweet going around online that people were saying was the official Iran military account that just said everyone will feel it, which is very ominous. But this is just a Commentary account. It is not the official Iranian military. So maybe good news, because when I first saw that, I was, like, freaking out, but it's not the official one, so hooray.

[Tim]

Thank you for clarifying.

[April]

Would we like to end on some weird Christian beep? Weird Christian.

[Tim]

Okay. Weird Christian shit. This is a weird one.

[April]

This is a testimony in a church by a girl.

[Tim]

They're always kind of weird being honest. Somewhere. Where is it? Here I have it. Somewhere. There it is. Pull it up here.

[April]

Oh, thank you, Michelle, for the super chat, too.

[Tim]

Thank you. Another one?

[April]

Yes, another one.

[Tim]

Great show. Keep up the great work. Thanks, Michelle. Appreciate that. I appreciate that so, so much. All right, let's get into this. Yeah. Friends, just buckle up. Buckle up for this moment, and then we'll talk about. Oh, another. Sorry. Another super chat. I gotta. I. You have to. So, April, I'm not sure if you know this, but the rule is every super chat, as a way of saying thank you, you always read it on the air with the person's name. That's like. That's like the code of conduct. No, it's a cool word.

[April]

You're totally cool.

[Tim]

It's. It's fine. Deanna says thank you. Thank you for helping me stay sane. Absolutely. Deanna, thank you so much for being here. It means the world. Again, friends, all super chats go right to making this work possible. They pay for the overhead of the show. Time to prep, et cetera. So thank you so much. Okay. Weird Christian shit, here we go. Buckle up. I just want to testify to how much of a romance a relationship with Jesus Christ is. The Lord has pursued me so passionately and so intimately this week, and I was struggling with the lie that I was not chosen. And. And the Lord spoke to me in prayer. He said, sienna, I would create the entire world over again just to look at you. So I just want to give a great shout out to the Lord for.

[April]

Being such a lover of our souls. I think she's dating Jesus.

[Tim]

She used the word intimate.

[April]

Okay, but there are worship songs that also use that. Do you remember that one song that was like, your love is extravagant.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[April]

Something. Oh, it's intimate.

[Tim]

I'm not gonna play it. Because we always get flagged on this channel. Whenever we play any kind of music, we get demonetized. So I'm not playing any songs. But, yes, there's also a sacred romance. Is that. Is that. Is that what it's called? Is that Phil Wickham?

[April]

I don't know. Oh, okay, here's the lyrics, right? Your love is extravagant. Your friendship is intimate. So at least I said friendship, but it's intimate. I feel like moving to the rhythm of your grace. Your fragrance is intoxicating. In our secret place.

[Tim]

Oh, God.

[April]

And the chorus is spread wide in the arms of Christ.

[Tim]

No, stop.

[April]

Yes, we used to sing that goes spread wide in the arms of Christ.

[Tim]

You're right.

[April]

You're right. I love the COVID sin.

[Tim]

I would play the job. I would play the. The Zhenbe because it was like a real kind of acoustic song. I remember that song.

[April]

Oh, yeah, we used to. We jammed out to this, and youth group came out is by casting crowns, 2003.

[Tim]

I was thinking of Divine Romance by Phil Wickham. Lyrics are for you. I sing, I dance Rejoice in this divine romance Lift my heart and my hands to show my love A deep, deep flood an ocean flows from you of deep, deep love yeah, it's filling up the room. So, yeah, I will say, like, yeah, I played a lot of these songs. And they know. Even back then, I was kind of like, I don't know if we're dating, if we're talking about God or, like, if I'm. If I'm singing this to the girl in the front that I have a crush on. Like, it's kind of hard to know.

[April]

Well, there's so many times, too, that we've taken, like, a secular song, and you can easily turn it into a worship song or vice versa. You can take a worship song, change God to babe or girl or whatever, and then it's. It's a romance. Like, the. The line is very thin. That is a very, very fine line.

[Tim]

Well, yeah, we had another.

[April]

We have two. Debbie.

[Tim]

Debbie.

[April]

Thank you. Debbie says thank. Thanks for all you and April are doing. Thank you.

[Tim]

Thank you, Debbie. And then Jamie. Oh, am I reading this one?

[April]

Oh, sorry. Yeah, sorry, I thought you were.

[Tim]

Jamie says, I really don't want another war in the Middle East. I am scared for my children who could be drafted if it goes wrong. Feel that. We feel that for sure.

[April]

Yeah.

[Tim]

Can we just play the beginning of this one more time? I want folks to hear this. I just want to testify to how much of a romance a relationship with Jesus Christ is. What does that mean?

[April]

Romance? Yeah.

[Tim]

What does that mean? I mean, I don't want to know.

[April]

I've legit been in youth group services where they were talking mainly to the girls, but to everybody of like, you really shouldn't be dating anybody because you're. You're training to get divorced if you break up. So that we should be focusing on dating Jesus. That was an actual phrase that was told to me.

[Tim]

Right.

[April]

Like, you know, for sure. And the amount of times, too, that you would break up with somebody. And I. I've done this. I. I'm ashamed to say, but I've broken up with somebody to say, you know what? God has been jealous of the time that I've been spending with You. Because we're taught, like, God is a jealous God, and I need to focus on my relationship with God because you've become a distraction to my relationship with God. That's common. It's common in evangelical culture.

[Tim]

Olivia. Super chat. The supreme leader of the universe wants a relationship with me personally. That's pretty egomaniacal. Yes, I did think about that, too. I thought about. Oh, and thank you, Stevie, for the super chat. I appreciate that. I thought about how she says this right here. I would create the entire world over again just to look at you. That.

[April]

I mean, to look at you.

[Tim]

Okay, look, if I'm being charitable, okay, I think that at its best, this type of belief lets you be seen and love. Right? Like, oh, someone values me deeply. At. At its worst, though, it's like, look how important I am. Where you all wouldn't exist, but God would still make the world over again just so he could look at me. And I'm like, I. Do you hear yourself? It's like, talk about, like, arrogant, prideful ego, egomaniacal. It's just like. That's intense, dude. That's intense.

[April]

I know. Well, there's that other song, too. That's like, Jesus, lover of my soul.

[Tim]

Yeah. Jesus never let me go. There's also the song by Bethel called. It was an old one, actually. It was early Jesus culture. And what's it called? The Adventure or something. I'm not playing it. We're not gonna get demonetized. I refuse. But it was, you know, all about, oh, come away with me, come away with me. It's gonna be wild. Remember that song, Come. I can't sing it. I can't sing to save my soul, so I'm not gonna try and sing. But if someone looks that song up, you'll hear it. But also very romantic. Very, you know, like, we're going to go on a grand adventure. It's going to be wild. It's going to be grand.

[April]

I just thought about. Do you remember? It was a couple years ago, I think it was. The Gospel Coalition released an article, don't.

[Tim]

Do it with Josh Butler.

[April]

Yes.

[Tim]

No. Yes, I do. Oh, my God, it's so gross.

[April]

Hold on. I got to see if I can find it, because they took it down.

[Tim]

All right, while you do that, I'll preface it. Josh Butler was right, by the way. He wrote a really good book called the Skeletons in God's Closet. And then he kind of went off, in my opinion, like, the deep end. All the all is in the chat. No, he knows all that. You Know what we're talking about. So I think he had a book coming out about, like, sex and God and, like, how the, How. How did he phrase it? We got to find it something, like, to the effect of, like, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, like, pours out his seed on the church, and it was just like. It was so cringy. It was so bad.

[April]

It was like the first chapter of his new book that was coming out too. See? Is it still out while you're doing that? They took it down everywhere.

[Tim]

Stevie says. A super chat. Thanks, Stevie. I really want to start seeing us fight back against the support Israel argument by using the accountability partner logic. I love that. That's so good. Oh, no, hold on. I, I know. I did a video on it on my Instagram a long time ago.

[April]

I did a video too, of it. And.

[Tim]

Oh, my gosh, about.

[April]

Where was it?

[Tim]

Is it called Sex? No, that's Rob Bell Sex. God. What was it called? Beautiful Union. It was called Beautiful Union. It was still released.

[April]

Oh, gosh. I know that he said something like, when a man puts his seed into his wife.

[Tim]

Yes.

[April]

He brings it not only upon, but within his. In. In her. And that's like how God is like. He was comparing that to God's relationship to the church.

[Tim]

Okay, I found it. I found something on it called Clearly Reformed. I'm trying to find the actual article, though.

[April]

I know. I'm. Where's the archive? I know someone archived it, like a.

[Tim]

Wayback Machine or something.

[April]

Yeah, I know. I, I thought about this in real time, so I didn't have time to, to look.

[Tim]

We're going to roll with this for a minute because I, we, we. We finished our episode real early. We have, like, we have a few minutes. Oh, wait. Okay. Is this it? I found it.

[April]

You found it?

[Tim]

Wait, wait, did you. No, this is his resignation.

[April]

Oh, gosh. Okay. I'm trying. I found a bunch of articles about it, but I want to. I want the quotes. I want to read the quotes.

[Tim]

I need Alden. I need Alden to help me.

[April]

They were so bad. I know. You gave them all the day off because it's dude teeth.

[Tim]

I know.

[April]

I'm glad you.

[Tim]

I should have been more like Charlie Kirk. You made them work harder.

[April]

Okay, we should edit this part out for the podcast.

[Tim]

No, this is fun.

[April]

They'll be annoyed I got right now get to the point, everybody.

[Tim]

Wait, hold on. I, I, I, I'm in the way that I'm in the Wayback Machine trying to look back and find this. Give me a Second, it's. It's searching. It's doing its thing. It's spinning.

[April]

Spin, baby. Spin, baby.

[Tim]

Oh, it. It is such a painful article. Okay, I'm frozen here. I'm froze. I'll pull my screen up so folks can see it.

[April]

Oh, here's one where he said, quote, a condom.

[Tim]

I got it, I got it, I got it. Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[April]

Hey, wait. Send me the link. Put the link in the. In the chat so I can read it along with you.

[Tim]

Okay. Do we just read the whole thing?

[April]

I don't. Should we.

[Tim]

You. You should read it in your voice because you have a great. Your voice is great, and you have a great reading voice. So pull this thing up. I sent it to you.

[April]

Okay. Sex won't save you, but it points to the one who will. Is the title of this article.

[Tim]

Thank God.

[April]

This whole thing. That is long.

[Tim]

Is it long?

[April]

It's like. It's.

[Tim]

No, this is like a five minute read. I think it's worth it.

[April]

Okay, fine. He says, I used to look to sex. Can we pull up a picture of Josh Butler, too?

[Tim]

Yes, I will do that.

[April]

Just so we can see who's saying this. Okay. I used to look to sex for salvation. I wanted it to liberate me from loneliness. I wanted to find freedom in the arms of another. But the search failed. My college sweetheart dumped me. I found a rebound to feel better about myself and hurt her in the process. I then fell head over heels for the girl of my dreams at the time and spent the next five years pining after this friend who didn't feel the same. I wanted to feel wanted, yet I wound up alone. Our culture looks to sex for salvation, too. We want romance to free us from solitary confinement, to deliver us into a welcome embrace. But idolizing sex results in slavery. Huh? You can chart up your long list of ex lovers and join Taylor Swift in telling the newest applicant, I've got a blank space, baby. And I'll write your name. Ew. How dare you quote Taylor Swift.

[Tim]

How dare you? And by the way, that. That's the picture of Josh.

[April]

That is Josh. Yes.

[Tim]

Yeah. Okay.

[April]

Yes.

[Tim]

Back to the article.

[April]

Back to the article. You can end up in the. In the Egypt of a new romantic wasteland, more cynical and isolated than when you first began. Yet I've discovered a crucial corrective in the gospel that can lead us out into true freedom. Sex wasn't designed to be your salvation, but to point you to the one who is.

[Tim]

I just want to say I've never thought about sex as Salvation.

[April]

Like, no, I have never thought about it that way either.

[Tim]

Continue on.

[April]

And honestly, I don't like thinking about God while having sex.

[Tim]

No, I. I'm being honest. That's usually not in my mind. I'm not imagining Jesus in the room with us. Not really my thing. I mean, listen, we don't kink shame on this podcast, but it's not for me. I'll put it that way. It's not for me.

[April]

Yeah, well, you know, there are people who literally. Oh, gosh, I've got so many stories on this. I know. We're so over time, April.

[Tim]

How. No, you have to say it now. We're in. We're in. We're in.

[April]

Okay. I knew of a girl, and I will not say her name.

[Tim]

Thank you.

[April]

Where it was like a family tradition for all the women in her family. Aunts, grandmas, parents. They would knit together what they would call. I don't know if they called it this, but everyone else started calling it this. A sex blanket. A homemade sex blanket that they would lay down. It was prayed over by the moms and the aunts and the grandmas to have a great sexual experience where. Where it was almost like a worship night to. To bless their sex life. And they were supposed to, like, you lay it down and you're supposed to have your first time on the blanket made by your mom.

[Tim]

No. And that your mother also sat on at one point. And so. No.

[April]

They made new ones for each one, as far as I'm concerned.

[Tim]

So they were. They were, like, adding on to it.

[April]

Well, dude, I don't know, though, now that you say that that was not clarified in the. In the story, I will say Beecher was at this wedding where they did this whole presentation. The gift, the blanket to the. I think it was at the rehearsal dinner.

[Tim]

Wow.

[April]

I need Beecher to come up and tell this story because I'm probably getting my details wrong. But that's, like, a thing. It was a thing. There's weird stuff about. And, like, couples are taught to pray, to welcome God. Like, Jesus, be with us as we have sex.

[Tim]

Yes. Yes. Hold on. Okay, I. We're over time, but whatever. We're in the zone. We have to go for it.

[April]

Beacher clarified it was a new blanket for each first sex.

[Tim]

Thank God. I almost really had a panic attack. Like, you've got to be shitting me. Have you ever seen the movie Pamela's Prayer?

[April]

I've only. I've seen clips.

[Tim]

I've not seen the whole thing. That is a doozy. And All I'll say is that one of the main premises in the movie is that Pamela saves her, even her first kiss, until her wedding day. But a big theme is that as Pamela's growing up, her father, which is. Which is Father. They don't use Pam or Dad or Fred. It's Pamela, dad, Father, and Frederick. And so every night, Father prays to Pamela before they go to bed. And then the last scene of the movie is after Pamela gets married to Frederick and she's in the room for her wedding night, she calls her father to pray with her one last time.

[April]

Oh.

[Tim]

Anyway, back to our article at hand.

[April]

Yeah, like, we just do an episode of Just Cringy Purity Culture. Things that we have witnessed or participated in.

[Tim]

It should be called TNA After Dark.

[April]

Let's go live one night, just share cringy purity stories.

[Tim]

We can watch Pamela's Prayer because It's out on YouTube royalty free, so we could stream it and not get dinged. It's an option.

[April]

Let's do that one time.

[Tim]

Back to the article. Here we go.

[April]

All right.

[Tim]

Yeah. Sorry.

[April]

Union with Christ. Okay. Sex is an icon of Christ and the church. In Ephesians 5, 31, 32, a Hall of Fame marriage passage, the apostle Paul proclaims, for this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery, but I am talking about Christ and the church. Niv. I've translated proscolau as cleave. I think that's how you say that. Now, the context here is marriage. Leave and cleave is marriage language. And the surrounding verses are all about husbands and wives, not hookup culture. Yet that. That second part about the two becoming one flesh is consummation language that refers to the union of husband and wife. Paul says both are about Christ and the church. This should be shocking. It's not only the giving of your vows at the altar, but what happens in the honeymoon suite afterward that speaks to the life you were made for with God. A husband and wife's life of faithful love is designed to point to greater things, but so is their sexual union. This is a gospel bombshell. Sex is an icon of salvation.

[Tim]

How?

[April]

I'd suggest the language of generosity and hospitality can help us out. Wow.

[Tim]

Buckle up, friends. Here we go. Yeah. I need more blueberry coffee.

[April]

This is where it gets.

[Tim]

I'm empty.

[April]

Real cringe. Yeah, if it wasn't already. Generosity and hospitality are both embodied in the sexual act. What? You know, to be fair, I'm glad that he's talking about giving. There's too many men that just. It's true, you know, Think about it.

[Tim]

Generosity loves a cheerful giver.

[April]

Generosity involves extravagantly or giving extravagantly to someone. You give the best. You've got to give lavishly. Pouring out your time, energy or money. At a deeper level, generosity is giving not just your resources, but your very self. And what deeper form of self giving is there than sexual union where the husband pours out his very presence not only upon, but within his wife.

[Tim]

Oh, my God.

[April]

Hospitality, on the other hand, you just.

[Tim]

Can'T pass over that, April. You just can't keep moving on. Did you just hear what you read?

[April]

I did. I did. I did hear it. I heard it very clear.

[Tim]

Okay, go ahead, keep going.

[April]

Also, the fact that he's making sex and a husband getting off as some sort of self sacrifice has. Have you met men?

[Tim]

As a man? I will tell you, it could take a lot of work. Sometimes it's a self sacrifice. You got to work up to it.

[April]

That's a self sacrifice. Okay.

[Tim]

There's no pleasure involved. It does not feel good. It is just hard, straight up work.

[April]

No. No selfish reasons whatsoever.

[Tim]

No. No. Zero.

[April]

You get nothing out of it.

[Tim]

Nothing. Nothing at all? Nope.

[April]

Wow.

[Tim]

Not a thing.

[April]

Okay. Hospitality, on the other hand, involves receiving the life of the other. You prepare a space for the guest to enter your home, welcoming him warmly into your circle of intimacy. Nishtare your dwelling place. With you here again, what deeper form of hospitality is there than sexual union where the wife. Where the wife welcomes her husband into the sanctuary of her very self. Giving and receiving are at the heart of sex. I take it back. The giving was not for the woman.

[Tim]

No, no. Well, it was. It was for you. It just didn't, you know, it didn't really. It didn't benefit you a whole lot.

[April]

This is like Christian smut. This is. This is. That was a much more like fancy way of Mark Driscoll calling women penis homes.

[Tim]

Yes. Or when Doug.

[April]

Josh Butler said sanctuary.

[Tim]

Or when Doug Wilson says that a man is supposed to penetrate and a woman receive. I mean, it's the same logic. I'm sorry. I mean, it's just not as crass, but it's just. I know. I feel like I have to take a shower saying that. But.

[April]

Welcome. Welcome to my home.

[Tim]

Yes. Your warm, intimate home. I'm sorry. Too far. Too far. Oh.

[April]

So. Okay. Okay. Giving and receiving are at the heart of sex. Both of those were one direction. The idea that the man was the one doing the giving in this scenario, I mean.

[Tim]

Well, no, no, it's self giving. It's self giving. You know, it's like self sacrifice. Yeah.

[April]

Okay. Obviously, a man and woman both give to each other and receive from each other in the sexual act. Sex is mutual self giving. Yet on closer inspection, there's a distinction between the male and female sides of the equation. Yeah. One has orgasms at a far higher rate.

[Tim]

Women. Right. Women. Isn't women usually. I'm sorry. I'll stop. I'll stop.

[April]

I was never once taught about female pleasure. In all of my purity culture and marriage conferences I went to, it was all about the wife pleasing the husband.

[Tim]

You know, Honestly, real talk. Same, now that I think about it. There was no. There was no talk about that. Did you see it? You saw. I know. I fed it up earlier.

[April]

My spouse. I missed it because I was reading Cringe. Beacher said, looking forward to April's hospitality manner. Welcome. Welcome home, babe. Listen, I will say we do. We mutually give and receive and.

[Tim]

Same. Same.

[April]

Yeah, same. Mutual orgasm is very important.

[Tim]

Honestly. For real. I mean, not to, whatever, but, like. And this. Sarah and I, we were very open about this, but, like, we always, like, have a debrief afterwards. Like, how was that for you? How was that for you? What can I do better? We've always been that way. I don't know. It's just, like, weird not to have that conversation of, like, you know, were you taking care of. Do you feel good? I don't know. Just normal.

[April]

This. Honestly, this whole section should just be a separate video because we've totally digressed from our usual show. This is TNA after dark, even though it really is 1:30 on a.

[Tim]

All right, we're almost done.

[April]

Today. Thursday. Oh, God. Okay, okay. The Bible makes this distinction explicit. Stop saying that. The most frequent Hebrew phrase for sex is literally, he went into. Her translations often soften this for modern ears, saying, he made love to her or they slept together. But the Bible is less prudish than we are. Using more graphic language to describe what happens in the honeymoon tent. One Sunday morning, I learned how graphic this language can be. My friend Karen was publicly reading scripture for our church service, and we recently switched to a more literal Bible translation. We were in Genesis 29, where Jacob marries Leah and Rachel. Polygamy.

[Tim]

Biblical marriage.

[April]

Biblical marriage. And the phrase shows up. We discovered a lot, which is he went into her. By the way, Karen has, you might say, a rated G personality. Very prim, proper and polite. We all saw her cheeks turn bright red. With a lot of awkward pauses as she had had to continually read the phrase. And Jacob went into her over and over again. After that Sunday, we went back to a less wooden translation and laughed a lot with poor Karen.

[Tim]

Hilarious. This is. This is a comedian over here.

[April]

Yeah, he went into her. So. So X rated Sexual union pictures the gospel. The Hebrew language is onto something. However, there's a distinction between the male and female roles in sexual union. Each brings something unique to the fusing of two bodies as one. And this distinction is iconic on that honeymoon in Cabo. The groom goes into his bride. He is not only with his beloved, but within his beloved. He enters the sanctuary of his spouse where he pours out his deepest presence and bestows an offering, a gift, a sign of his pilgrimage that has the potential to grow within her.

[Tim]

He did not. What editor read this and goes, this is great pose.

[April]

Oh, my gosh. His deepest present.

[Tim]

Is it really offering? Is it. What does it cost him? What does it cost him?

[April]

A gift. Golly. Can he wrap the gift?

[Tim]

Yeah, can you wrap the gift?

[April]

Oh, my gosh. I guess I'll thank Beecher later. Thank you for your pilgrimage.

[Tim]

Yeah, thank you for your gift. Wow.

[April]

This deep. A deep gift of offering. Okay. But you know what, though? This is a picture of the gospel. Christ arrived in salvation to be not only with his church, but within his church. Christ gives himself to his beloved with extravagant generosity. Showering. Showering his love upon us and imparting his very presence within us. Okay, okay, I gotta take a beat. I gotta. I gotta take a breath for this next sentence.

[Tim]

Sorry.

[April]

Christ penetrates his church with the generative seed of his word and the life giving presence of his spirit, which takes root within her and grows to bring new life into the world.

[Tim]

I might really pass out. I don't know what. I don't know what to do.

[April]

This really brings a whole new meaning to that scripture that says, behold, I come quickly. You know, what's really, like, how does.

[Tim]

It penetrate his church? I.

[April]

There are so many times where the church accidentally says things that are sexual. You know, like there's so many. That's what she said. Moments within the church. But this guy's like, yeah, yeah, no, it is sex 100%. Like, he's saying showering penetrates. Like he's using those words intentionally to elicit a. Like a visual idea of sex in our minds and.

[Tim]

And, you know, bodily fluids showering people. I mean, it's. I'm just saying, like showering his love upon us. I mean, that could make it into any, any fairy smut book that could easily make it in and be a okay with the audience. Yeah, it's just, it's in there.

[April]

And I wonder. That poor girl earlier was like, I just want to think the romance of God.

[Tim]

You have two paragraphs left and you're done.

[April]

Okay. All right, we'll continue inversely. Back in the wedding suite, the bride embraces her most intimate guest.

[Tim]

You can do it.

[April]

Her most intimate guest on the threshold of her dwelling place and welcomes him into the sanctuary of her very self. She gladly receives the warmth of his presence and accepts the sacrificial offering he bestows upon the altar within her most holy place.

[Tim]

Did Chat GPT write this as satire? I just have to know. Can I just say one thing? I, I, I think one comment. I'm a man, and there's a lot of different ways to describe a man giving himself to his partner. The word sacrifice or sacrificially does not come up. There is nothing sacrificial about the male orgasm. Like, I'm sorry, there is nothing going on there.

[April]

There's a reason why it's well known that a lot, a lot of women fake their orgasms. To me, that's the sacrifice that is sacrificial, giving, you know, important than he probably is in this situation. You don't ever hear of men faking their orgasms?

[Tim]

No.

[April]

That I'm aware of. I've never personally heard of that.

[Tim]

No.

[April]

For those asking, where is this? This is Gospel Coalition article. It's an old article from a year or two ago that they. That has since been deleted. But it's an excerpt and I don't know if it was edited before it was published, but it's an excerpt from a book from Josh Butler called A Beautiful Union.

[Tim]

Here's the final paragraph. Friends, we're almost home free.

[April]

Oh, God. Okay. Similarly, the church embraces Christ in salvation, celebrating his arrival with joy and delight. She has prepared and made herself ready, anticipating his advent and eager anticipation. She welcomes him into the most vulnerable place of her being, lavishing herself upon him with extravagance, hospitality. She receives his generous, generous, generous gift within her, the seed of his word and presence of his spirit. Partnering with him to bring children of God into the world. Their union brings forth new creation.

[Tim]

Can I just say thank you for your sacrifice to read that article. You sacrifice a lot there.

[April]

Thank you so much. You are very, you're very welcome.

[Tim]

She has prepared and made herself ready, anticipating his advent in eager. It's like all about the guy. This is just like. This is so misogynistic. Like as if it's all about the woman preparing herself for the man's gratification. Oh God. So, yeah, there's a reason why you can see now, friends, that they deleted this article because. Well, yeah, they issued an apology. So when you click the link now, it just says that he resigned from his position as. As a Keller center fellow and they asked for forgiveness.

[April]

I think they also said too that the article lacked sufficient context to be helpful in this format because I do think it was an excerpt from the book. I don't know what context makes that not cringy.

[Tim]

Af1 Right at the end he says, LOL JK. Can you believe we used to believe that shit? That would make it better in context.

[April]

Right? The thing is though, like he just said it. He just said the quiet parts out loud. But the language of Jesus being a lover and like having this kind of romance with Christ, like as the church is like. It's in the rhetoric. It's part of. It's not. It's not far fetched. He just said it very explicitly.

[Tim]

What? What? What a dive this weird Christian shit segment took.

[April]

I know, sorry. I totally took us on a tangent.

[Tim]

No, I'm happy. It was. I think it was great. We had to have it. I cannot believe we read that entire article.

[April]

That was not planned. I was not planned at all.

[Tim]

No, it was not. That was amazing.

[April]

We actually made really good time.

[Tim]

I know.

[April]

I was like, wow.

[Tim]

Hour and 13. We're gonna be out of here in 10 minutes. It's a half hour later.

[April]

Oh my gosh.

[Tim]

Well, I don't know. Should we wrap it up? No pun intended.

[April]

Oh my gosh. Yeah, I think we should pull out of this live.

[Tim]

Yeah, I agree with you friends. Thanks for being here. If you enjoyed this content, all of it, the whole live, please make sure to give this video a like subscribe to our channel. We go live every Thursday at 12 o' clock Eastern where who knows what will happen. And of course we release an episode that's pre recorded on Mondays. You can find both the live and the deep dives on our podcast as well the Tim and April show. You can also follow us on Instagram. Have a great week friends. We'll talk to you all next Thursday. See ya.

[April]

Bye.

[Tim]

Wrap it up.

[April]

That.