31. Debunking Christian Nationalism’s Biggest Fear Tactic: The Rapture

Summary

The Tim & April Show: Episode 31 Summary

Title: Debunking Christian Nationalism’s Biggest Fear Tactic: The Rapture
Host/Author: The New Evangelicals
Release Date: July 7, 2025
Description: Where we unravel faith, politics, and culture.

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In the 31st episode of The Tim & April Show, hosts April Ajoy and Tim Whitaker delve deep into the concept of the Rapture—a cornerstone of modern Christian Nationalist ideology. This episode, titled "Debunking Christian Nationalism’s Biggest Fear Tactic: The Rapture," offers a comprehensive critique of how Rapture theology has infiltrated Evangelical Christian thought, influenced childhood beliefs, shaped societal attitudes, and even impacted U.S. foreign policy.

1. Introduction to Rapture Theology

Tim Whitaker begins by providing a foundational understanding of the Rapture, tracing its origins to dispensationalism—a theological framework developed by John Nelson Darby in the 19th century. Darby’s dispensationalism introduced the idea that God interacts with humanity through distinct periods or "dispensations." A key aspect of this theology is the belief in the Rapture, where true Christians will be taken up to heaven, leaving the rest of the world to face the Tribulation, a period marked by chaos and suffering.

Tim (04:30):
"The Rapture comes out of this theology called dispensationalism. It's a very fancy word. And essentially this theology believes that God works throughout human history in different dispensations."

2. The Rapture's Influence on Childhood and Personal Trauma

Both hosts share personal experiences of growing up within environments where Rapture theology was prevalent. April Ajoy recounts her childhood under the watchful teachings of her evangelist father, where the Rapture was depicted as an imminent event that could occur at any moment, instilling a sense of fear and urgency.

April (06:11):
"My dad was an evangelist, so he preached. He would do like End Times series and I was really invested... We would stand at our kitchen window and just stare up in the sky and we would count 10, nine, eight... And then he didn't [get raptured]."

Similarly, Tim Whitaker reflects on the anxiety induced by conflicting teachings within Evangelical traditions—balancing "once saved, always saved" with the fear of losing salvation due to sin.

Tim (18:03):
"There's a huge, like, cognitive dissonance... 'Always check your heart for sin, because you just never know. I was not. I'm kind of curious for you, April, like how much the Rapture played a role in, like, your family dynamic.'"

3. The Rapture in Media and Pop Culture

A significant portion of the episode criticizes the portrayal of the Rapture in popular media, particularly through the Left Behind movie series starring Kirk Cameron. The hosts play excerpts from the trailers to illustrate how these films propagate fear-driven narratives about the end times.

April (53:00):
"Left Behind... they're presenting this insane theology that, that everyone is either on God's side or Satan's side and there's no middle ground."

Tim (52:03):
"Fire is raining from the sky... It's gonna get a lot worse... This really shows how deeply the Rapture ideology is embedded in Evangelical media."

4. Rapture Beliefs and Current Political Climate

The discussion transitions to how Rapture theology intersects with contemporary politics, particularly focusing on figures like Donald Trump. April highlights how Evangelicals have paradoxically both support and critique political leaders, often viewing them through a prophetic lens.

April (63:46):
"My daughter, she was like, that's what Lizzo means when she says 'good as hell.' Oh no, no, no, that's not. Just forget what I just said."

Tim (62:28):
"Donald Trump is being seen as a potential Antichrist figure by some Evangelicals, despite the real-world policies that often harm Christian communities, such as the targeting of Iranian asylum seekers."

5. Critique of Evangelical Approaches and Shaming Culture

Both hosts emphasize the detrimental effects of shaming and lack of supportive environments for those trying to leave Evangelical circles. They argue that relentless shaming only entrenches harmful beliefs rather than encouraging meaningful change.

April (40:51):
"We want people to embrace repentance, churning and going the other way from beliefs that have caused so much damage to their neighbor. And that includes us."

Tim (39:06):
"We don't want to shame them further. What kind of welcoming environment is that? You want to welcome them in and say, hey, welcome. I was there, too."

6. The Psychological and Societal Impact of Rapture Beliefs

The episode delves into the psychological toll of living under the belief of an imminent Rapture. The constant fear of being left behind fosters anxiety, dehumanizes communities, and diverts attention from pressing global issues like climate change.

April (43:13):
"If you genuinely believe it, you're going to be riddled with anxiety and you're going to be militant about trying to save as many people from hell as possible."

Tim (13:13):
"Rapture theology is directly correlated with Evangelicals fighting any sort of policy to help the climate. Because they believe that the world's gonna burn anyway."

7. Addressing the Broader Evangelical Network and Policy Influence

The hosts discuss how Rapture beliefs have seeped into the highest levels of political power, influencing U.S. foreign policy and perpetuating a Eurocentric, privileged worldview that sees global events through a narrow, prophecy-driven lens.

Tim (68:18):
"This ideology, whether we like it or not, drives a lot of U.S. foreign policy. People like Mike Huckabee, Israel's the ambassador to Israel, believe in this stuff. Ted Cruz believes in this stuff. J.D. Vance, to a degree, believes in this stuff."

8. Conclusion and Call for Compassionate Engagement

Wrapping up, April and Tim advocate for a more compassionate approach towards those still entrenched in Rapture and Evangelical ideologies. Instead of mocking or shaming, they encourage creating "soft landings"—supportive environments that allow individuals to transition away from harmful beliefs without undue judgment.

April (38:06):
"It is a very scary belief system... Intention doesn't negate impact. And I just want to say, too, this is a sidebar. We want people to change... we just think we should have some grace for those people that are waking."

Tim (40:51):
"We are really poking fun at ourselves because that was us. But we listen. We're on the same planet with people who believe things that are wildly different from us and, by the way, live and let live."

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This episode serves as a critical examination of how the Rapture, a relatively recent theological construct, has profoundly impacted individual lives, media portrayals, and even national policies. By sharing personal traumas and societal critiques, The Tim & April Show encourages listeners to question and understand the pervasive influence of Rapture theology within Evangelical Christianity and beyond.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Whitaker (06:11):
  "This is where the Antichrist... we're all going to use the same currency. There's going to be peace on earth and then eventually God's going to judge the world."

• April Ajoy (09:47):
  "John Nelson Darby... he came up with this theology that scarred millions and millions of people, including myself."

• Tim Whitaker (43:02):
  "I was taught about hell in a way that was so objectively true that I would be panicking at night thinking about my body burning forever in hell."

• April Ajoy (56:36):
  "It's really wild to see someone like Josh or any of these evangelicals be so confident in a brand new, really made up theological idea about the end times."

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Listeners are encouraged to engage further by subscribing, leaving reviews, and participating in discussions to foster a more informed and compassionate community.

Transcript

[April Ajoy]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hello, everybody.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hey, everyone. Dang it.

[April Ajoy]

I beat you. I beat you again. I'm just jumping in. Welcome to the Tim and April Show. I am April Ajoy. I'm Tim Whitaker, and this is our show. We can start it however we want.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, who cares about engagement or, you know, the hook for the algorithm on YouTube so people keep watching. We do whatever we want on this show.

[April Ajoy]

We do what we want. This is our show. And you can't tell us what you want us to. Actually, you can, because we.

[Tim Whitaker]

We.

[April Ajoy]

We are. We. We are only as good as the algorithm lets us be. So we will adjust.

[Tim Whitaker]

Actually, in fact, we actually want your feedback. If you can leave a comment below and tell us what you think about this episode, that'd be really great.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. Are we doing okay? Do you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, we doing good.

[April Ajoy]

Please tell us how.

[Tim Whitaker]

How about you, podcast audience? I mean, the. You know, it's funny, the podcast audience gets a very different experience because it's just audio. Right? And I. I will say, April, whenever I listen back to our show on audio. I. I'm like, you know, we do have good chemistry. It just feels like two friends talking. So I don't know, I don't want to sound biased, but I think that we are pretty decent. And I. Hopefully our audience feels that way too, because I love doing the Tim and April show. It's so much fun. It's a great way to let off some steam.

[April Ajoy]

We've got chapstick and chapped lips and things like chemistry.

[Tim Whitaker]

What a deep cut. Yeah, let's go. I would play that here, but then we'll get demonetized, so. Thanks.

[April Ajoy]

That's a. That's a Reliant K song. For those that have no idea what that was.

[Tim Whitaker]

Chop.

[April Ajoy]

I do have chap lips, though.

[Tim Whitaker]

In the winter. That's a great. That's a great song.

[April Ajoy]

Chap lips and things like. It's chopstick and chap lips.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, exactly. Well, before we get rolling. Yes. I saw you make the head move, so I don't know. Listen, friends, a couple things. Number one, if you're new to the show, welcome in. We go live every Thursday at 12 o' clock Eastern, covering some of the headlines in the news with our Christian nationalist commentary and spin. And also, we release an episode every Monday that's prerecorded like this one. So make sure that you subscribe to the channel or make sure you follow us on podcasts. Leave a rating and review on podcasts and a comment on YouTube if you're watching. Also want to mention, we do have merch, officially. Okay. We have this great mug I commit sins of empathy is what it says. And I'm wearing one of our other shirts, says Proud Sinner Empathy. You know, it's our way of kind of clapping back at the toxic empathy crowd by saying, look, that if you think empathy is sinful, then call me the chief of all sinners because I'm, I'm empathetic.

[April Ajoy]

That's like a double whammy, though, because pride is already one of the deadly sins. Don't know if you saw one of the million of memes that were passed around last month in June.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, no, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[April Ajoy]

Well, you. Not only are you proud, which is a sin, but you're proud to be a sinner.

[Tim Whitaker]

Way to hell. Yeah, I'm just nosed.

[April Ajoy]

What a rebel. What a rebel you are. How does it feel?

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, it feels great. And speaking of hell. Speaking of hell.

[April Ajoy]

Wow.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm trying to pick up. Yeah, we are going to be talking about today about the rat.

[April Ajoy]

Not really hell. Well, it's another end times, like terror, like it was another form of religious trauma similar to hell.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, it's. It's like evangelical purgatory in a way. You know, you're kind of in this weird holding space on earth for some people before God really smites you down. So today we're talking about the Rapture and how that impacted not only our childhood, but just how it impacts the world around us. And then I think we're gonna watch a few trailers from, from some top tier left behind movies today and we'll kind them on a scale of 1 to 10, as far as the fear factor goes. I do want to start off though, just by kind of giving the audience a very brief overview of what we're actually talking about. Because some people actually, I would say the fortunate souls out there who didn't grow up believing this idea of the Rapture or hearing about it. Yeah, I'm going to educate you today a little bit. So the Rapture comes out of this theology called dispensationalism. It's a very fancy word. And essentially this, this theology believes that God works throughout human history in different dispensations. So there's like, there's like usually seven different dispensations, periods of time where God's doing something unique. And in the Christian theology, one of the big distinctions between a dispensationalist and someone who's not. That is how they view the role of Israel and how they view the role of Christians. Okay. In typical Christian theology, the church is like, in a sense, the new Israel. As far as how God is working through a certain people group to kind of restore the world or bless the world and dispensationalism. They believe that God has two distinct plans for the Jewish people and for Christians. And a big part of this theology is that they believe that at any moment the true Christians can get raptured. They can just vanish into thin air with their clothes left behind, which brings up all sorts of questions. But we'll get into that later. And essentially that will start what's called the tribulation. And the tribulation is a period. And this is all debated by the way. Some, some dispensationalists say the tribulation will happen first, then we'll get raptured. They, everyone argues about this, but the general rule of thumb is that Christians get raptured, everyone else gets left behind, and the world essentially goes to shit. Okay? Tons of battles, tons of death.

[April Ajoy]

What you're forgetting an important part though, the first three, and it's a seven year great tribulation. And the first three and a half years are peace, are full of peace. And then the second three and a half years is total chaos, starvation, wars, all the things.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is where the Antichrist. Yeah, right. The Antichrist comes on the scene. And again, I'm kind of giving the caricature of this of like, of like what's called maybe like pop rapture theology, but essentially the Antichrist will usher in the one world government. We're all going to use the same currency. There's going to be peace on earth and then eventually God's going to judge the world and come back in a fury and just, you know, it's going to be like, you know, AR15 Jesus, just go into town and. And a lot of people are going to die, including a lot of Jewish people. And this theology is what leads to the ideas that, you know, God has a special plan for Israel. So America must protect Israel at all costs because it plays a role into the end times theology. That's kind of where all this comes from. Now, if you want a deeper dive on this, we actually just dropped a full explanation of this theology on the TNE podcast with someone named Daniel Hummel, who's like a, literally one of the most authoritative scholars on dispensationalist theology. So if you want all the nerdy stuff. You can go over there and listen to it. I just wanted to give the audience a general idea of what this rapture theology is. Now here's the kicker though. A lot of people, including me, including you, were taught that this is just what the Bible clearly teaches. And you're kind of given the assumption that this theology is what every Christian everywhere believes. But that's not true. That's not true. In fact. In fact, this theology was invented recently by someone named John Nelson Darby, and he lived between 1800 and 1882. That's right. This theology is about 160ish years old, give or take. Maybe, you know, it's in that ballpark. And so this is a very new idea. And I need to also mention that this is a very uniquely American evangelical theology. Mainline Protestants don't believe this. Global Christians don't have this view of the end times. This is very much a fringe idea that's new. And yet for how we grew up was taught as like absolute truth and shapes a ton of foreign policy when it comes to America and the Middle East. And again, you can go over to our tne podcast, my episode with Daniel Hummel, to get all the details. But that's what we're talking about today. Because I'm not sure if you know, April, but there's been some, some violence that's happened recently between Israel and Iran in America. And a lot of people, including Josh how by the way, were like, oh my gosh, is this the end times? Is this, is this when, when like the great battle is going to happen? In fact, maybe we should play that clip, should we play that Josh Howerton clip so people can get an idea of what these folks believe? Do you think that?

[April Ajoy]

Sure. But I just want to say real quick something about John Nelson Darby. Put him in the burn book, right? If you have a burn book, he's in there with a few other people that I have some choice words for if I ever meet them one day in the afterlife. Because, you know, not only did he come up with this theology that scarred millions and millions of people, including myself, but he, there's like a lot of people that think he stole the idea from a 14 year old girl's weird dream, like a vision. Her name is Margaret McDonald. So you can look it up, do your own research, look it up.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, let's pull up this clip of Josh Howerton. I just think it's really worth watching for folks who really did not grow up with this ideology. And Josh Howerton is a mega church pastor. This clip has been shared over a quarter of a million times. And this really summarizes this dispensationalist theology and how they view the end times and certain things that happen in the Middle east at any given time. No matter. No matter when you live, if you're alive in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s, there's always some preacher putting pieces together asking the question, are we at the end of the world? Here's what Josh Howerton said.

[C]

The Bible says that this attack at the end of time will come on Israel from the north and the south, and then that will be the final war, the war to end all wars that will usher in the end of time. And now here's the question. Are we entering into that war right now? In Ezekiel 38 and 39, it mentions nations Gog and Magog.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's.

[C]

That would be like modern day Russia. It also mentions persia in Ezekiel 38 and 39. That corresponds to modern day Iran. What we do know is that if Iran enters the war, that Turkey and Russia will probably go with them. Right behind them will be North Korea and China. And if all of the world powers start attacking from the north and the south, start trying to attack Israel, that could be the war to end all wars that ushers in the end of history. You may be going around now like, bro, this is heavy, man. Can I just say this? There's a lot of Hope in Ezekiel 38 and 39, because we know how that battle ends. But the Bible says exactly at the moment when it looks like all hope is lost for God, for the descendants of Isaac, that the Lord himself, Jesus Christ, Christ, will descend. He will take the battlefield, and he will win the war once and for all, for all time.

[Tim Whitaker]

There you go. I mean, I. I just think we need to highlight, April, how violent this idea is and how happy Josh seems to be preaching. Like, he's smiling while saying this. You're talking about the mass extinction of billions of people. And in fact, a lot of these folks cling on to a verse, I think it's in Revelation that essentially says, like, the blood will be so high, it's up to the bridle of the horse. Right? That's. That's like. That is. That's gruesome. That's gruesome.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

You know, and these people are like, are we here yet? Is this the end of the world? Wild that. That they're so excited. Because if Josh believe that, you would think he'd be sad.

[April Ajoy]

You know, sad about happy, excited music that he put behind you like it's some kind of Marvel movie. I mean, that, that is a part, I think, of believing in the Rapture. Is this excitement to. Because, I mean, think about it. You don't have to worry about the world's problems. You don't have to solve it because you know what happens in the end. And so you can try to do things to try to make it happen quicker, but it's basically a get out of death free card for Christians 100% who believe in this. So it's, it's there. Gosh, there are so many problems with this theology. Not to mention what, it traumatizes people. It's silly. It keeps evangelicals from actually trying to solve problems because God is in control and it's all gonna happen. But then also it makes them completely deny climate change. Like rapture theology is directly correlated with evangelicals fighting any sort of policy to help the climate.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, right. Because they believe that the world's gonna burn anyway, so why even try to stop it? You know, wait, God's gonna make a new. Yeah, we're all gonna be in heaven one day. This world won't be here. So God's in control, so who cares? You're. In fact, remember was it a year and a half ago where you and I covered an Ali Stuckey clip of her essentially saying that, like, look, God controls the seasons, we really shouldn't worry about climate change. Right. It absolutely displaces human responsibility to take care of the planet, take care of our neighbors, because, oh, well, look, guys, we're going to be off of this sinking boat anyway one day. And so the rest of you are damned. It doesn't really matter. It's incredibly dehumanizing when you think about it. And also, I mean, look, Iran, Israel, Russia, they don't give a shit about this theology. Like, they're not thinking about, oh, is this the end times through an evangelical lens like it is. It's so wild to see someone like Josh or any of these evangelicals be so confident in a brand new, really made up theological idea about the end times and making it seem like this is so true. And as, as we watch other countries with no awareness of this idea, you know, I guess they're, in their mind, they're just being used as, as chess pawns for God. It's a very, I don't know, it's a very Eurocentric privileged position to hold. And these people, many of them are giddy for this bloodbath to happen, which is just, it's just unbelievable to Me.

[April Ajoy]

Well, I remember we talked about this briefly in our live from like two lives ago about how I was so mad when I realized when the Rapture became a belief system in modern day Christianity, because that's never taught. It was presented to me as if the Apostle Paul was waiting on the Rapture himself because they use that verse in Thessalonians where he says like we will be caught up. Caught up. They, they use caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That's the verse where a lot of Rapture theology hinges on. And then obviously all the weird stuff in Revel and then there's a couple verses in Daniel, right?

[Tim Whitaker]

Ezekiel, etc.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, yeah. They bring a whole bunch of like random verses out of the context of which they are written and put them together to form this brand new idea. But it's presented as if this is the most normal. It's. It's presented as essential as Jesus Christ dying and rising again.

[Tim Whitaker]

100.

[April Ajoy]

They're like, it's just right there. And I, and I believed it too. I think I said earlier that Margaret McDonald was Irish, she was Scottish. I just want to correct that as I said that. But it just doesn't matter. But when I, when I learned, and it was only, it was really maybe five years ago that I first stopped believing in the Rapture because I had no reason not to believe it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

I just believe that interpretation of things. And when I actually googled it because like I need to learn, I need to learn where this came from. As soon as I found out that it was not a belief in Christianity until the 1830s, I like, it was the quickest theology to throw in the trash because that, that theology and belief system harmed me. Like it was trump. Like I, I've shared before. I've thought I've been left behind for like a solid 20 minutes when I was 13. And I, I usually talk about it in a really joking way, but I, it was traumatizing. Like when if you're 13 and you think that your whole family has vanished and you are now left alone on earth to, to like become a underground Christian, you know, are going to be persecuted because, because there was also this, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go on a rant. Can I go on a rant?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, go on a rant.

[April Ajoy]

Evangelical teaching is always, it's just so conflicting, especially as a child. But you don't have the skills to quite decipher that it is conflicting. So you just believe it all because you're a kid. Like you're Taught that it doesn't matter what you do, God will forgive you. You just say a prayer, you ask Jesus to forgive you, to come into your heart, and you are immediately going to heaven. And that's, that's like the beauty of the cross. It's the scandal of grace. It doesn't matter what you've done. God loves you so much. And also, don't ever sin or tell a lie or expose your shoulders or get too angry, get too competitive or lose your temper. And just in case you do a little sin right before the Rapture, because you don't want to get left behind, because you can get left behind. Because they were always talking about, there's going to be Christians in the great Tribulation because they got left behind because they did a little bit of sinning that they hadn't asked forgiveness for. So there was like this constant. Like, you can never lose your salvation. Oh, but you might lose your salvation, which just puts you in a constant state, state of fear and anxiety.

[Tim Whitaker]

100. So I was taught in the. So in, like, the American Calvinist tradition that I was more a part of what they'll say, because this is a, this is a big debate, right, between, like, the Arminius theology of, of can you choose your salvation versus Calvinism, which says that you're predestined. And I was taught that, you know, once saved, always saved. But then I was taught too, that, well, maybe you were never saved to begin with because the fruit didn't match up with your life. Right? So that's how they got around this idea, because I was like, okay, well, if I, if I had this thing happen to me, if I ask God for forgiveness, if, if I walk down the aisle and I meant it, then no matter what, God always loves me and I'm forgiven because he forgave me for all of my sins, past, present and future. But then I was taught, well, if you don't live a lifestyle that is pleasing to God, it makes you question if you were ever actually saved or regenerate in the first place. So I was always thinking about that too. Of, like, wait, are all of my sins forgiven?

[April Ajoy]

Or.

[Tim Whitaker]

Or am I always, like, thinking about, oh, is, am I, am I really not a true Christian or not? Because this thing in my life, which, by the way, to your point, sins were like, you said the F word or you made out with your girlfriend too long or, you know, whatever.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, my God.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, Right.

[April Ajoy]

Or you watch, like, a movie, God's name in vain.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally. Totally. Yeah. So I, I agree There is that huge, like, cognitive dissonance between the songs and the theology of, like, scandalous grace, the reckless love of God. You're always forgiven. You're welcome into the family, versus, like, well, always check your heart. Always check your heart for sin, because you just never know. I was not. I'm kind of curious for you, April, like, how much the Rapture played a role in, like, your. Your family dynamic. Because my dad, he really didn't believe it. Like, I'm not. So for me, rapture theology was around. You know, the Left behind movies were around. The idea of being raptured was definitely in the air I was breathing. But at home, my dad was one of these. I just think that the end's gonna happen. Like, just. It's gonna. Just. The end of the world's gonna happen, and there's no tribulation. There's no real rapture. We're either here or we're there. The end. So it was never, like, really instilled into me as a child of, like, hey, be on the lookout for the Rapture. I kind of picked that up later on as I kind of move through my evangelical tradition from charismatic to more. I'm sorry, from Calvinist to more charismatic theology. And even then, I will tell you that there was a time, I don't know, maybe. Maybe 13 years ago, I had to be, like, in my mid-20s, maybe early 20s. And it was Christmas morning, and I woke up, and I couldn't find my family. I could not find them anywhere. And even though I was not deeply embedded in rapture theology as a kid, I still was like, well, did it happen? Like, did the Rapture act? Because I really couldn't find them. Like, they weren't. They weren't upstairs, downstairs. I was yelling for them, could not find them. Turns out they were outside on, like, the back, back, back porch. But for a minute there, I was like, wait, maybe the Rapture did happen. So even though I wasn't fully indoctrinated into the Rapture theology, it still stuck with me even well into my adulthood. So I'm kind of curious for you what your experience was like.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, I want to get there, but I just have questions on the back, back, back porch. Did you have multiple porches?

[Tim Whitaker]

So we. We sat on, like, three acres of property, and so our porch was, like. It was like a big, like, outside portrait kind of went back a ways. So.

[April Ajoy]

Okay, that makes sense. I was like, wow, that's a lot of porches.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

But the back.

[Tim Whitaker]

It was like the. The very back End of the porch. I couldn't see.

[April Ajoy]

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail. You said that.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, you're good.

[April Ajoy]

I was trying to get a visual of the story.

[Tim Whitaker]

Multiple porches. Yes.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. It's so funny to hear you talk about Calvinism, which I know, I know you're a Calvinist, but even in my weird charismatic upbringing, we thought Calvinists were so stupid. We're like, how could you believe that it was predestined and that God pre selects and like the elect, like, what's the point of doing anything then?

[Tim Whitaker]

That's what led me out of it. Eventually I was like, wait, if it's all been predestined, then, like, even if I leave, I was predestined to leave. Like, it doesn't make it ok. So I'm just doing what God wants me to do, you know, I guess I'm one of the reprobate now.

[April Ajoy]

I think it's. That's the funniest part to me because, like, being out of that, in hindsight, I know I believed some really stupid things too. But it's just people get their little clicks and you think, oh, no, everything I believe is totally normal. I believe we get sucked up into the sky naked. But I don't believe in predestination. You psycho.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right? You weirdos.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. So the Rapture was a huge part of my upbringing. I mean, my dad was an evangelist, so he preached. He would do like End Times series and I was really invested, like I wanted to know everything I could. So I remember like my dad would sit at the kitchen table and I would just ask him questions and he would draw little maps and he would say Russia. And you know, he would do the whole Gog and Magog thing because I, I mean I just, that was just part of the world that we were in. I remember I was probably seven, maybe seven or eight. And I remember one morning because we were homeschooled, me and my brothers, and we were like, I think the Rapture's happening today. And we were so excited because this was. We were really little kids, so we hadn't quite got to the fear of being left behind yet. It was just this exciting thing that could happen when Jesus comes back. And we thought Jesus was so awesome. And you know, we, we were. And I still love Jesus. And I remember we said we stood at our kitchen window and just stared up in the sky and we would count 10, nine, eight. Because we thought when we got to zero that Jesus would come back and then he didn't. And then I'd be like, okay, we just got our timing wrong, let's do it again. We, I don't know how long we did that for, but we did it for a long time. And so we just felt like at any moment, I mean, I grew up where the Rapture was imminent. It could happen at any time, any place you would be when you least expected it. Me and my brothers, we would sing before my dad would preach in churches all over the world. And like we would take turns saying little things like Jesus loves you and Jesus died on the cross and rose again. And then one of our main ones that we would say is, are you ready for the Rapture? That was like part of the, I don't know, just, just the things that, that we would say and we would witness to different. When we'd go into restaurants, we would witness, that'd be one of the things too. And then people would be like, what's that? And then it would give my dad opportunity to, to share the gospel and I, we watched probably every straight to VHS Rapture home movie that we could, which was traumatizing. I read the Left behind series for kids.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep. They had a kids version.

[April Ajoy]

That's right, version. And that's the one I read. I was probably 9 or 10. And let me tell you, the only thing that's different from the kids version to the adult version, content wise, is that it just happens to kids. Kids still got their heads chopped off. There were still guillotines. It was still the Antichrist. Like it's like it is like a persecution kink is what those books are. But I.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wait, pump the brakes. You're telling me that in these books, these Left behind kids books that are made for kids ages 10 to 14, there were stories of kids having their heads chopped off?

[April Ajoy]

Guillotines? Yeah. I don't remember if it was a kid that got it, but it was definitely like their parent, like their people got heads chopped off that were Christians in these books.

[Tim Whitaker]

Isn't this coming from the same world that's so worried about kids being indoctrinated in school and like you know, being over sexualized. And here you are as a child reading books about people having their heads chopped off and the end of the world full of blood and violence and fear.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, it's the same type of people though that would take their five year olds to see the Passion of the Christ, which is like maybe the most violently gory movie out like it is up there.

[Tim Whitaker]

I, I was I think 12 or 13.

[April Ajoy]

Look, no we've talked about this. We're the same age.

[Tim Whitaker]

No shade. No shade to my parents because my parents really are amazing human beings. Back in the day, my parents were, and they admit, a little over overzealous with how strict they were. Fair enough. So. So this story is not a knock on them. It's funny now, but we walked out of Home Alone 3, the movie. We walked out of it.

[April Ajoy]

I love that one, actually.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, I just. I just saw it for the first time like a year ago because I was allowed. I'm like, you know what, mom and dad, I'm watching this. I'll watch this on Disney plus. So I rewatched it. It was good. But as a kid, I walked out of it. I. We got like five minutes in. There was a picture of a girl in a bikini. We walked out. And at age 13, my parents brought me to watch the Passage of the Christ with kids from my neighborhood, hoping that, like, you know, they would get saved, essentially. And we all got back in the van and were just silent after watching that movie because of what we just watched. I mean, literally there, the camera does not shy away from. From the back of Jesus being split wide open and chunks of flesh being ripped off his back. And I'm like, 13 watching this.

[April Ajoy]

Like, wow.

[Tim Whitaker]

So it is interesting. It is interesting to see the stark difference.

[April Ajoy]

Well, because they believe. It's like, they believe it, you know, like they believe in this absolute truth. They're like, well, if this is going to scare people into following Jesus, into, you know, doing the right thing, then it's somehow worth it. You know, it's not indoctrination if you think you're indoctrinating them with the quote unquote truth or whatever. My brother. I was not the only one who thought I was left behind. One of my brothers thought we were. We used to travel around in a motorhome when we would go to different churches. And so we were at an RV park. Stay. My dad was preaching somewhere. I don't know where we were, but we were probably on a walk and my brother Andrew couldn't find us and literally called the cops because he thought he was left behind. And he found us while he was on the phone with the cops. He was like, never mind. But my gosh, it's like, so it's. It's traumatizing. It is. It is a very scary belief system. But then also there was this. Such a desire to be persecuted because people want to be persecuted. Like, American Christians have this, like, kink.

[D]

They do. They Do.

[April Ajoy]

And I think, you know, it's not just the Rapture. I think a lot of it started for me around Columbine with that, the whole story around Cassie. You know, the. The shooter went to Columbine High School and said, do you believe in God? Yes or no? She says, yes, so she shoots her. That later turned out to not be an accurate story, but it started this whole movement of. I mean, I remember being kids. Church and being like, kids, are you gonna. If a gunman comes into your school and has a gun to your head and asks, you believe in God, would you. Would you deny Christ? Or would you sit, like, be willing to die to save your soul? And like, I remember being like a little kid and being like, I would die and then. And then, like, turning that into, like. There would be moments where I would be disappointed, knowing that I would make the Rapture because there was a piece of me that wanted to be left behind so that I could be part of the persecuted church that would save all the souls in the end times.

[E]

Hi, my name is Ashley and I live in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I'm a tne donor because I believe wholeheartedly in the work that they're doing. Growing up, the word Republican was synonymous with Christian. It was implied that to be a Christian, you had to vote a certain way. But around 2015, 2016, I started waking up and noticing the harmful us versus them mentality in our country. The harmful rhetoric from people like Trump or Sean Foyt, for example, just did not match up with the Jesus I knew and had been taught about for, you know, almost 30 years at that point. I'd say that was the catalyst for me to really just examine my faith. Tne content. I believe it inspires us to be a better and more loving neighbor to the people around us. And that is what I believe Christianity is about.

[Tim Whitaker]

I still have my. My DC Talk Voice of the Martyrs.

[April Ajoy]

Books, the Fox's Book of Martyrs. Oh, no, that's different.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is. This is Jesus Freaks DC Talk. This is volume two. I had one and two. It's the stories of revolutionaries who changed the world, fearing God, not men. And look, I'll be honest with you. I was a kid on the toilet reading this book and thinking to myself, I'm not sure if I could watch my family be tortured and not deny God. I might lie and just say, no, I deny God so my kid doesn't die. And thinking, I must be a terrible Christian who doesn't have enough faith or conviction as a Christian to live up my beliefs. Because I wouldn't watch my kids be tortured in front of me. And again, like, I want to be clear, I'm not necessarily giving any shade to the real stories that could be in this book for sure, but it was just taught. Like, if you're not like these people, do you even have real faith as a Christian? Do you really love God if you're not willing to be tortured or have your family or friends tortured, you know, in order for you to stand true in the faith? That's a very, like, those are just that, that, that does something to you deeply as a child, right? As a teenager especially. Because I think as a teen, right, going from like 14 to like 20, your bright, your brain is just primed for radicalization. Like because you're just there as a kid. Like you're just, you're exploring yourself, your mind is still, you have some kind of formation but not nearly enough people are still forming it. And I just think that you're willing to find extreme beliefs very palpable and very like, oh, interesting. Especially I'm not sure if there's a gender difference here, you know, broadly speaking. But I will say as a young man full of testosterone, I was like, yeah, I want a battle to fight in, a beauty to rescue, Wild at heart. Like, I'm ready Braveheart. Yeah, like I want to just storm the capital, the capital, the kingdom for Jesus. Like I want to storm the kingdom for Jesus because that didn't happen yet. But my point is that I think that like a lot of these beliefs really become cemented at those ages if you don't really think through them critically. And they can create some pretty radical folks who do some pretty radical things ultimately. I mean, think about the one, what was the, the missionary, was it John Chow who went to India a couple of years ago to that, that island that's never been touched by like modern humanity. And there's a people group there that like is there, they have not been at all impacted by the modern world and it's illegal to go to that island both for your own safety but also for the people who are there because they haven't been exposed to any of the germs that we have, etc. And like he snuck onto the island to try and evangelize them and he was killed and he was seen as like, as like a complete martyr of the faith for doing this bold act when in reality he jeopardized the well being of those people because his belief was that if they don't receive Christ as their savior, they're going to burn in hell for all time. Right? I mean really, I think his name was John. He just took that belief to its radical conclusion and logical conclusion that oh, these people are going to burn in hell. I have to do what I can to witness to them so they convert to my religion so they don't, they don't end up in hell forever.

[April Ajoy]

Right. And, and that was, that was the whole point of like there is no amount of torture or death that you could experience on this earth that would be worse than going to hell for eternity.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

So there was like this, this push from a young age and it like, and I, I want to be clear, like my mom listens too much to the show. So like I, I love my, I love my parents. I think that they did the best that they could because they also believed these things that were passed down to them. And we were in an environment where everyone was believing these things and it was very, I mean it's a bubble. It's, it's a high control community. There, there are, there are barriers in place intentionally to keep people inside. The way you demonize outside voices, the way you demonize people who leave the church, it's never because they have a valid reason to leave. It's because Satan's led them astray. So you have the way that they demonize doubts and questions and all this. Like my, my parents were doing the best that they could with the same knowledge that I had. Right, of course. But also it was just, it was a lot. I mean I, I think I'm going to tell. I am very grateful every day that my children have no idea what the rapture is. They are. And they don't even know what hell is. Like a year or so ago, my oldest daughter who was, she was 7 or 8 at the time, she went to Beecher to, and asked them, daddy, what is hell? And so Beecher was like, oh boy, like not ready for the conversation.

[Tim Whitaker]

I've been waiting for this moment, you.

[April Ajoy]

Know, like, oh, this very in depth like child appropriate view of like, well, some people leave, some people believe that's where really bad people go when they die. And you know, give them, give this really childish thing, this long thought out, well articulated answer.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right?

[April Ajoy]

And, and then Raelyn, my, my daughter, she goes, so that's what Lizzo means when she says good as hell. Oh no, no, no, that's not. Just forget what I just said.

[Tim Whitaker]

You heard nothing. You heard nothing.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, forget it.

[Tim Whitaker]

That is funny. But honestly, I am, I mean, look, I don't think my parents listen to the show at all. But to be clear, like, my parents really raised us very well overall. We had a very welcoming home, very loving home. But the hell thing, and it wasn't even really from them. It was just from the churches that we were in. But, like, I think about that for my kids. Like, I don't want anyone, my parents or any other faith leader telling my kids about hell, especially at such a young age where it's not appropriate for them to know about that. Right. Because you're right, April. Like, as we've discovered, the idea of hell is hotly debated. It is certainly far from being an objective truth about what happens when you die. And it's not fair to have kids have that looming over them, treating it in their minds as, like, a fact when it's just not right. But I think about that as well. Like, when. When that happens, how are we gonna. How I'm gonna have to handle that conversation with. With my kids?

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. I mean, so Andrew, again, my. My brother, when he was 6, he went through. I don't know how long it was. It felt like a long time. For several months, he would say. I think after everything he said, because he didn't want to accidentally lie and then sin, and then if he were to die or the rapture happen, he would miss it. Like, he was so terrified of accidentally, he didn't want to be left behind. So, like, me and my. My other brother, we mocked him relentlessly for this because we thought it was so funny, which in hindsight was awful because he was just traumatized. But we were like, andrew, are you a girl? And he would say, no, I think. And then we would just laugh at him, Which, Andrew, if you're listening, I'm sorry that we did that. But, like, he was genuinely. That's trauma. That's just trauma that you're inflicting on children. And I. You know, intention doesn't negate impact. And I understand, like. But, you know, people are. Have good intentions and are still. This theology is traumatizing if you grow up in it. And I do just want to say, too, this is a sidebar. We want people to change. I've been seeing a lot, like, with. With the. There's. This is a little bit of a rabbit trail, but there are some people who are starting to wake up out of MAGA and Christian nationalism as. There's. As things get, you know, worse and worse, we want them to change. And I don't. I don't love. I've been seeing a Lot of people that are just kind of mocking and demonizing people and saying that they were stupid for getting caught up in it. And as much as I understand, and there are many people that I want to shake and be like, you're being so stupid right now. Like, I get that. And also, we want. This is what we want, like, at the point of activism is to bring change and to get people to leave harmful ways and to come into new ways. And I think it's. It's a much healthier and a more progressive. Like, if we actually want to enact change, the better path to do that is to, you know, create soft landings for people. Say, welcome. Don't give them platforms right away, but just say, listen, you were indoctrinated. I've. I know what it's like to be indoctrinated, and I just think we should have some grace for those people that are waking.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's, you know, one of the reasons why we talk about Christian nationalism and evangelicalism is because we believed a lot of it, or we're on the path to believing a lot of it, right? So we, We. We poke our fun because we were. We're really poking fun at ourselves because that was us. Right? But to be fair, and you're totally right, we listen. We're on the same planet with people who believe things that are wildly different from us and, by the way, live and let live. Right? The problem, of course, the reason why we're so passionate about this is because Christian nationalism really demands full assimilation into it for it to be functional. If people break out of that, if they are waking up finally to the reality that, that the Trump administration is kidnapping our immigrant neighbor in horrible, inhumane ways and wants to change. What I think we don't do is shame them further. That's not because. What kind of welcoming environment is that? Right? You want to welcome them in and say, hey, welcome. I was there, too. I held these views as well. I understand what you're going through. And also, you know, we poke a little bit of fun at it as well, because we need to cope with it somehow. So I agree. I don't think that, like, especially on the Internet, relentlessly shaming people who are trying to change their mind, I don't think it does them any favors. It doesn't do us any favors, and it doesn't give them. It doesn't give them an option for a better path forward. Right? And the whole point is that we want people to embrace repentance, churning and going the other way from beliefs that have caused so much damage to their neighbor. And that includes us. Right. You and I still find ourselves at times making mistakes. Right. Having views that maybe we didn't realize were problematic. And we try our best, although not imperfectly, right, to turn and go the other way still, because we grew up in this world and we live in a society that is built on supremacy, of course we're going to internalize some of that stuff. So I agree completely with you that it's important to hold space for those people.

[April Ajoy]

I've gotten a few comments over the years when I've talked about how I change from people that are like, you're an idiot for letting them indoctrinate you. Like, people that just think people are like, there are really, really smart people that get indoctrinated, and there's really smart people that get drawn into cults. Like, there's, there's something appealing about cults, which is why people go into them. And also, I was a toddler, you know, like, there's people who did not grow up in high control religion.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

Just like, don't understand. It's not so simple as just not being stupid.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. Because you're taught, first off, let's be honest, right? I mean, you and I have kids. A kid, A child's brain is fully malleable, and the adults around that child shape that child's worldview. Doesn't matter who they are. And when you're taught that, you know, the grass is green. Yes. The sky is blue. Yes. The earth is round. Yes. Eternal hell is waiting for you unless you say your prayer. Yes. Like, it's just, it's just one of those things that, like, it's just brought into the world of, of objective truth. Right. The Bible is God's word to us. Yes. Gravity exists. Yes. Like, that's how it is. And so the indoctrination, the reason why it's successful is because it's indoctrination, not because we're like, oh, I know this is dumb, but I'm gonna believe it anyway. Right? We. You don't know what you don't know. And by the way, that goes for any worldview, right? Anyone of any persuasion, religious or not, can be indoctrinated into beliefs that ultimately are not truthful or that can cause harm. In our case, a lot of the theology we were given, it's not that it was presented as an option, it was presented as absolute fact about how the universe functions. And that's my, that's my biggest gripe, right. Looking back on My childhood. It's not that I was taught about hell at a young age, although that is, in my opinion, dangerous. It's that I was taught about hell in a way that was so objectively true that I would be panicking at night thinking about my body burning forever in hell because that's what was going to happen to me unless I was a Christian, which then caused me to pray the prayer over and over and over again just to make sure. Because I don't want to end up burning in hell forever. Because forever is a really long time. That's the problem.

[April Ajoy]

Right, right. And I think that is the fruit of that theology. Like, if you genuinely believe it, you're going to be riddled with anxiety.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

And you're going to be militant about trying to save as many people from hell as possible, which is how we were and how my family was. And it's, and it's not just the parents that are doing this. It's the entire environment. It's the, it's churches, it's the pastors, it's Christian movies, Christian radio, Christian music. I was homeschooled. I went to Christian schools. Like literally every avenue where you could learn anything is rooted in the exact same belief system.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's reinforcing.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. You never, you never have a reason to doubt because it's not just, well, my parents are saying this, so are all my friends, parents and all the.

[Tim Whitaker]

Books that you read. Right? So this is why I call it the basement of, of, of Christianity. Because when you're down there, you're taught this is all there is. Every book that you read, even from people that you think might, might be more progressive, which is really such an illusion in this space. Like, for example, I'll give you a perfect example. When I read Francis Chan's book, book Erasing Hell. Okay. I was like, okay, Francis Chan, you know, he's not, he's not John MacArthur. He's not this like hard lined, burner churn kind of person. So if anyone's gonna have a different view on hell, it would be Francis, because he's way more loving. And when you read the book and he essentially says, I think it's pretty clear that hell is eternal conscious torment, you go, well, I guess that's. I guess that's the answer then. I guess there's no other way to see this because he's my other option for another Christian voice in this space. Right? So you're so every author you're reading, every piece of theology you're inhaling, it's all within a certain barrier that leads to those conclusions one way or another, either directly. Turner Byrne, that's like your Paul Washer, John MacArthur types, right? Or your Francis Chans, that God's love is so crazy for you, but also apart from God is eternal conscious torment. Because the Bible is clear, because we take the Bible so seriously. So either way, you're getting, you're getting back to the same conclusion. And, and, and that can kill curiosity because what happens is, and this is my, this is my, my big beef or one of my, my big problems with evangelicalism. It's not that they're afraid of questions, right? They love the questions. They love the questions. As long as you arrived to their predetermined answers. That's the key. Yes. Tim, let's talk about, about LGBTQ inclusion. That's a great question. That's a great question. Let's, let's wrestle through it. But we all know the answer in their back pocket. God doesn't affirm, you know, the gay lifestyle and the Bible's clear. So you can ask the question. It's when you start entertaining a different answer that you then become problematic to that, to that, that world of fundamentalism.

[April Ajoy]

It completely lacks curiosity. And it, and it, it lacks nuance. It's, it's a very black and white belief system. There's clear right and there's clear wrong, and there's no in between. And anything in between is lukewarm. Lukewarm was used as this, like, it could be like the most derogatory word you could call another Christian, you know, because, you know, and it's based on that verse where, you know, God's like you. If you're, you have to be either hot or cold, I'll spit you out of my mouth. Which is interesting because I guess you could just be cold. But anyway, regardless of it, it's like you have to either be all in or you might go to hell.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right. That's right. Pick a side. Right? You're either for us or you're against us. So, yeah, I mean, that was kind of a rabbit hole, but I think it's important to explore because it all plays a part into the end times theology and rapture theology that many of us were around. And again, I was someone who, I was not taught that directly at home. My dad was not warning me about the Rapture, but I still picked up so much of that ideology just by being in the world through different pieces of media, different authors, by. Okay, last slide. Then we can watch some of these trailers. But I agree with you that what I would say, April, is that the world we grew up in was not authentically curious. Right? They were curious to a point. As long once you hit the wall, your curiosity had to. Had to stop. Right? So, like, for example, there's plenty of different views about the end times and evangelicalism. Some people believe that, you know, the rapture will happen now, maybe it will happen later after the tribulation.

[April Ajoy]

Trip, pre trip, mid trip, or post trip.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly.

[April Ajoy]

And I remember, like, if I. I remember there was a guy in youth group who was mid trib or post trip, I don't know, he wasn't pre trib. And if you were not pre trib, it was a red flag.

[Tim Whitaker]

Not a good life partner, guaranteed.

[April Ajoy]

We might be unequally yoked or post trip.

[Tim Whitaker]

But I think that's a good example of the level of curiosity. Right? Sure, you can have different views on the tribulation, but the tribulation is definitely going to happen. That part is not debatable. Just a matter of when and how. Right?

[April Ajoy]

So, yeah, I remember. And also, like, even, like, since deconstructing out loud, we've had. I've had people from my evangelical world reach out and want, like. And their message initially is like, I. I remember there was a. A Baptist, a Southern Baptist worship pastor who reached out to me and was like, april, I agree on so much of what you say. I would just love to have a good faith conversation and learn your side and, you know, come together and meet in the middle, because I think we need to bridge these gaps and blah, blah, blah. And so I would. I had received a lot of these messages by this point and had had several conversations that were not in good faith. So I just was very blunt back, and I was just like, hey, like, I would love to have a good faith conversation if it's actually a good faith conversation and you genuinely want to hear my side. And I was like, and I have to be honest with you, I'm not really interested in hearing your side because I know your side because I come from that side. But if you like, we can still have the conversation. But if your intention is to try to get me to come back to believe what you believe, I'm not interested. And he never responded.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, of course not. I had. I had my old Sunday school teacher do this. He messaged me on Facebook and started at all cordial. Once I pushed back, he essentially got so mad at me. He called me not a real Christian, and then he blocked me. I'm like, well, there it is. Like, this is not about good faith. You're actually just trying to convert me back to what you believe. And what they'll do so often, April, is they'll be like, well, you're not hearing my side. I'm like, because I know your side. I grew up believing and preaching your side. Like, I know your side better than you know your side, you know?

[April Ajoy]

I know, I know.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's almost like the. It's almost like the multi level marketing people who are like, hey, girl, haven't talked to you in a while, but we should a cup of coffee and catch up. It's like, well, what do you want? It turns out, you know, they're doing some multi level marketing thing and they want to be a part of it. It's like, that's how it feels sometimes, you know. Hey, bro, it's been a while. Hope everything is great. We should catch up sometime. I want to hear more about your journey. That's just a red flag all the way through. I think you're problematic and I want to bring you back into the fold.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, my gosh. I know. After Beecher came out, there were so many people that were reaching out to them and like one. One person I think was also a pastor. It's funny how they're always pastors like Beecher. I just don't understand. Help me understand because all these verses, blah, blah, blah. And so Beecher and I made like, we made a 13 episode podcast where we tell our entire marriage story of like coming to grips with Beecher being non binary and how it helped our marriage. But it was definitely like not an easy journey coming out of evangelicalism. And so. But we did it for the intention of. We know people are going to ask, how did you get here? And we're like, hey, we have our whole story on this podcast, if you really are curious.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

And when to learn. And so Beecher said that, like, hey, you know, man, I understand that you have questions. Like, if you want, if you really want to learn more, here is a podcast that goes into very detail. It's not that long, you know, and then I'm happy to talk with you about it if you want to listen to it. And the guy responded was like, oh, I don't have time for podcasts these days. I'm like, okay, then you're not. You don't actually want to know.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right? Right, exactly. Well, why don't, why don't we, why don't we show the audience some of the, the media that you And I were consuming around the Rapture. I. There, there, there. There's a few doozies out there. I mean, look, look. One of the older ones that I was not alive for is Thief in the Night.

[April Ajoy]

That's.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, I have that trailer here. But the ones I remember the most are the Kirk Cameron left behind movies.

[April Ajoy]

Mm.

[Tim Whitaker]

I thought maybe we could watch a few of those trailers and get your feedback, April. See what you think. Okay, so trigger warning. Yeah, Trigger warning. And friends, if you're listening on podcasts, you should still be able to get a good sense of what's happening. But I do recommend heading over to YouTube so you actually see the whole trailer. Also, there's a very good chance that this video will get demonetized because YouTube is so strict with anything that involves music. So if you want to support the work that we do and help us out with the show, super chats are always welcomed. So this is. This is the Left behind, the first one. Because there's three. There's three movies. Yeah, yeah, this is kind of the one that I think kind of broke through into some kind of mainstream appeal. Here we go.

[D]

It's time to change history.

[Tim Whitaker]

Unbelievable. The whole world turned upside down.

[D]

What is.

[April Ajoy]

This is insane. People don't just disappear.

[Tim Whitaker]

What's next?

[D]

You knew People are missing. Dozens of seats empty.

[Tim Whitaker]

What's going on, Captain?

[D]

This.

[Tim Whitaker]

How do you hide from something like this?

[D]

What's about to happen?

[Tim Whitaker]

I am standing in the middle of an all out attack.

[D]

Prepare to witness.

[Tim Whitaker]

Are you telling me that they're dead?

[April Ajoy]

That they're not coming back?

[D]

An ancient prophecy I was of years completed.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's written in the scriptures.

[D]

I guarantee it about to become true.

[April Ajoy]

What's coming.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's gonna get a lot worse.

[D]

Based on the New York Times best this summer.

[E]

They're not here.

[April Ajoy]

They're not anywhere.

[D]

Left behind. If you start dreams against us.

[Tim Whitaker]

Nobody just walked off this airplane. We are at 37,000ft.

[April Ajoy]

I don't know if they're dead or.

[Tim Whitaker]

Lost or even worse. But more of us disappear.

[C]

The sun is gone.

[Tim Whitaker]

Fire is raining from the sky.

[D]

Fear.

[April Ajoy]

When is the last time you slept?

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm going to get you to a safe house.

[D]

Deception in the garden there was a serpent.

[Tim Whitaker]

Do you know who you're dealing with?

[April Ajoy]

Do you?

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, that's the Antichrist. I knew your message. I knew your words.

[D]

Left behind the movie.

[Tim Whitaker]

All of it's true.

[D]

Seeing is believing.

[Tim Whitaker]

There you go. Intense. Intense.

[April Ajoy]

That is something.

[Tim Whitaker]

That is something, right?

[April Ajoy]

I watched all those. There were a few of those.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, yeah, no, hey, hey, we're not done. I have the second trailer for Left Behind 2. It's called Tribulation Force.

[April Ajoy]

Ooh, that's probably when that scene comes out.

[Tim Whitaker]

This one has a lot more of the Antichrist stuff in here. Okay, so Nikolai Carpathia. Yes. Which, by the way, I want to say props to these movie creators. Nikolai is a very white European man. So that's good because if it was made today by Christian nationalists, it'd be some probably queer person or something, you know? So I'm happy that they stuck to the original source material and kept the guy very white. All right, here we go. Second chance. The events of the Bible.

[D]

The Antichrist will rule in the darkest of times.

[Tim Whitaker]

The Bible makes it clear. The Antichrist will hunt down and kill.

[D]

Every Christian here can find.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, can we just pause there? I mean, the opening scene of this trailer is people just getting gunned down and someone's saying that the Antichrist wants to kill every Christian he can find. This is why there's a huge persecution kink in American evangelical Christianity. Because they believe this. They believe that at any moment people in government, unless it's Trump or, you know, maga, are going to try and hunt them down and kill them. Which can I just say is really ironic because right now the Trump administration is actually targeting a lot of Christians with these deportation orders. So it is really interesting watching our brown skinned Christian immigrant neighbors being kidnapped in this country and suddenly white evangelicals aren't worried about Christian persecution. I just think that that's really telling.

[April Ajoy]

There was a couple of Iranian asylum seekers who are Christian who escaped because they were actually, they were facing actual Christian persecution in Iran.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

And ICE arrested them.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep, yep, yep. Okay. Just wanted to say that.

[April Ajoy]

Well, okay, well. And let me just say too, the reason why it doesn't it. So most, I do think most people who believe in the Rapture are pre Trib. That's, that's the more mainstream belief that, that we get raptured up before the great Tribulation. But we always knew there was a chance that it could be mid Trib or post Trib because you don't know when the Rapture is actually going to happen. So was always this. We were always suspicious of peace, of deals that would bring peace in the Middle east because that, that's sign of the Antichrist. So you're suspicious of peace, like peace is good, but you don't want too much peace because then you're like, oh, no, tribulation time. And then also the Christian Persecution could be signs that maybe we are in the tribulation and that the Rapture just hasn't happened yet.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep. Yep. So if you can see how violence in the Middle east is actually a good thing in this worldview because it means that, oh, we're not the Tribulation just yet. So the Rapture hasn't happened.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, it's.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's really wild.

[D]

World of despair.

[Tim Whitaker]

Find someone to blame.

[D]

God's dead. There are those you must trust.

[Tim Whitaker]

None of this is easy. But we have a calling now. And we got to stick together to lead the way. I've been praying and I know this is the way to go.

[D]

For those facing the tribulation, they must trust in God.

[Tim Whitaker]

There is only one person that can save you from your sin. One Messiah.

[D]

From the makers of Left Behind, Cloud Den Pictures proudly presents Kirk Cameron, Brad Johnson, Chelsea Noble and Clarence Giddy. Left behind too.

[Tim Whitaker]

What we have to do is fight him. All of us together form our own tribulation force and spread God's word in.

[D]

The face of the ultimate deceiver. Do we have a deal? They'll need the strength to work together, the courage to stand alone.

[Tim Whitaker]

God wants you to make a sacrifice.

[April Ajoy]

Glory.

[D]

Maybe God wants you to, like, back off. And their faith to see them through. God will protect me. Just pray.

[April Ajoy]

I did.

[Tim Whitaker]

I asked him to bring me home.

[D]

Left behind two.

[Tim Whitaker]

Left behind two.

[D]

Tribulation Force.

[Tim Whitaker]

There it is. Oh, yeah, classic.

[April Ajoy]

They're making new ones too, I think. There is. There was like a. There was a newer one that came out recently, I thought.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hold on, I have that one too.

[April Ajoy]

2023. I have Kevin Sorbo.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Oh, I had that one. I had that trailer.

[April Ajoy]

Rise of the Antichrist.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, it's this one. I have it. I have it. Don't you worry. April. April, I know how to research. Okay. There's actually two trailers here and this. Yeah, Kevin Sorbo something else. So. Yeah. So this idea still lives deeply in many of the imaginations of evangelicals. Here's the. More updated now, this is widescreen hd because those other trailers were just full screen, you know, low res. Here's. Here's what happened two years ago.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, man.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, yeah. Someone had told me that millions of people were just going to disappear. I, like you would have said they were crazy. Was it the Rapture?

[D]

Yes. Yes, it was.

[Tim Whitaker]

Are you sure? I mean, are you really sure?

[D]

I saw it happen.

[April Ajoy]

That was when Vanishes wasn't the Rapture. The Rapture was debunked on the first day.

[Tim Whitaker]

The second Wave of vanishings has thrown the financial markets back into chaos. Trust me, you want to make sure.

[D]

You'Re on the right team.

[Tim Whitaker]

You're already teaching him the art of faith. That's the bad guy. I just wish I could see you one more time.

[D]

Why are you still here? Cuz I asked God to leave me behind.

[C]

We don't need to look for magic.

[Tim Whitaker]

You're not a bunch of religious wackos.

[April Ajoy]

Wackos like my mom.

[Tim Whitaker]

Fortunately, we have a solution. We can implement Eden Pay Worldwide in a matter of weeks. Well, okay. Eden Pay. This. This is like the one world government set up.

[April Ajoy]

And the mark. The mark of the beast. The mark of the beast. So a key element of rapture lore, especially left behind lore. But it's. It's also part of just the theology is that during the Great Tribulation, you will not be able to buy or sell food unless you have the mark of the beast. Which is we. I mean I was taught it was a 666 on your forehead or your.

[Tim Whitaker]

Back of the hand or a barcode or something. Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

Yes. So you. And you've seen. In the last several decades there have been so many just like fear freakouts over various things that they claimed being the mark of the beast. One being most recently the COVID vaccine. So some claim that was the mark of the beast. And barcodes. When barcodes first became a thing, people thought that's the mark of the beast.

[Tim Whitaker]

And credit cards. And credit cards.

[April Ajoy]

Yep, credit cards. There's been a bunch of things that have been accused of being.

[Tim Whitaker]

Anything that moves us away from a cashless society is seen as a potential mark of the beast. So Apple Pay. Mark of the beast. Oh, it's all going in our phones for the one world government where they can see all of our information. Mark of the beast. Yeah, exactly.

[April Ajoy]

Yep.

[Tim Whitaker]

Welcome to the future.

[D]

I gotta look inside the even pay.

[Tim Whitaker]

Platform and it's a whole lot more.

[D]

Than a glorified bank card.

[Tim Whitaker]

So you're just admitting.

[April Ajoy]

Yes, I'm quite comfortable with that.

[Tim Whitaker]

When it is all over, half the.

[D]

World will be dead.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is the biggest news story since the vanishings.

[D]

You listen to me.

[Tim Whitaker]

You drag this line of nonsense into the public eye.

[D]

We're both finished now.

[April Ajoy]

I'm more like an actor.

[D]

The Antichrist will declare himself as God. Seemed like a stretch even for them.

[Tim Whitaker]

How do we know who we can trust? Trust God? The world is suffering. We are on the brink of. Of mass insanity.

[April Ajoy]

What happens to the rest of us?

[Tim Whitaker]

Doesn't it seem strange? But it's still so easy to dismiss it, even though we saw it. You know what's so funny? You know what's so funny about this is that it says in this trailer that the Antichrist will declare himself as God. I keep thinking about all the different connections that Trump has made to him. Being called by God, anointed by God, him posting a video of him as a golden statue in the middle of. Of Gaza. Like, if anyone is going to fit that archetype.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's going to be Trump. Like, like there are literal books. I had them on my shelf. I wish I had them handy. There are so many books. I own two of them that compare Jesus Christ. I'm sorry, that compared Donald Trump to a new messiah, to, like, Jesus Christ 2.0. And they're real. They're real.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't know of any other president ever that has that kind of, like, messiah complex tied to him. It's, it's, it's, it's uncanny.

[April Ajoy]

No, I know, I know. That's, that's honestly the only thing that there's a little piece of me that's like, well, maybe, maybe it's true. Because all the signs that I was taught to be, like, mindful of and to watch out for Donald Trump embodies.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

An eerie amount of them. I mean, a head wound, a head.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wound survives a head wound, miraculously. I mean, Ben Shapiro at Turning Point USA America Fest last year said it was the divine hand of God that moved Trump's head just enough so he wasn't killed, so he miraculously, you know, survived the head wound. There are so many. If, if you and I still believed in this as emphatically as maybe we once did, we could easily make this show about how Donald Trump is the very thing that so many of these evangelicals are scared of, and they are all about it. They love him. They love Trump. Oh, the irony.

[April Ajoy]

I don't know if you were ever taught this too, but there's also this, this verse in the Bible too, that says that the Antichrist, or the false prophet, the big end times villain, would deceive, if possible, even the elect.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

And that verse was used to say, like, hey, Christians, you're not off the hook. You might be deceived by the Antichrist. It says right here, if PA possible. Which means it might be possible. And I'm just like you all. Also, they wear hats.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, yeah.

[April Ajoy]

America, great again.

[Tim Whitaker]

Mark the mug of the beach, baby.

[April Ajoy]

I don't believe it. But, like, honestly, this whole last six months has been very triggering to my rapture anxiety because I'm like, I don't believe it, but the body remembers. And I'm seeing Donald Trump say, like, posted pictures of himself with a golden statue and then all these Christians are just like cheering him on as he's arresting Iranian asylum seeking Christians and they're like, woo, yeah, Donald Trump, we love you. And he's making money off of Bibles.

[Tim Whitaker]

Bibles, like millions off of Bibles. He has his own Bible. The man has his own Bible. Could you imagine if Joe Biden tried to sell his own Bible? You know how they would be? Oh, my God, this is blasphemous. It's sacrilegious. They hate Christianity. They're just trying to profit off of it. Trump does it. Oh, bravo, bravo, bravo. And this goes back to what you said earlier. The contradictions in this world, the blatant cognitive dissonance in this world. It's unbelievable. I mean, Joe Biden was either sleepy Joe and was so weak he could barely govern or he was so powerful, he was the most radical president we ever had who was gonna take away all of your rights. You know, Donald Trump is the very thing that they say that they're against and they worship him like he's Christ 2.0, but also he's just a man. And no, it's not what you think. Give me a break.

[April Ajoy]

I saw like full on novels written on Facebook on why Joe Biden was the Antichrist. And the same thing with Barack Obama.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, totally.

[April Ajoy]

For far less. For far less. If, if Joe Biden or Barack Obama did 1% of the things Donald Trump was doing, these evangelicals would be losing their minds. They would storm the Capitol again.

[Tim Whitaker]

As we wrap up, I just need to read this description from the book. President Donald J. Trump, the Son of man, the Christ. This is a real book. This is the description in the Amazon on the Amazon webpage. Here's what it says. During the presidency of President Donald Trump, it became evident to me that the prophecies about the Son of Man, as predicted by Jesus in the Bible, were to a significant extent fulfilled at the hands of Mr. Trump. The Bible speaks about two different Christs or messiahs. Jesus, the Son of God is the one Christ, whereas the Son of Man is the other. Jesus always referred to the Son of Man in the third person. The greater distinction or significance between the Son of Man and the Son of God, the Lamb is their respective positions at the throne of God. There are numerous differences between the Son of God and the Son of Man. But overall, people read these scriptures and they do not realize that the Son of God, the Lamb, stands in front of the throne of God, whereas the Son of Man is positioned on the right hand of God. Jesus spoke about two different killings in the four gospels of the New Testament. People read these scriptures and are unaware that Jesus, the Son of God, predicted his own killing in the first person, as opposed to the several prophecies that he made in respects to the Son of Man who will be crucified. I mean, this is like, this is a real book. This book will explain in depth how Donald John Trump's full name literally means the ruler of the world, graced by Yahweh, the Lord, and a descendant of a drummer. Upon reading this book, the reader will be captivated when they realize how President Donald John Trump fulfilled most of the prophecies as the Son of Man. It's unbelievable. These are real books.

[April Ajoy]

I want to point out, too, I sent you the link so you can have the graphic. But that most recent Left behind movie, one of their advertising strategies, like mottos, was that it said, based on a true story that hasn't happened yet.

[Tim Whitaker]

Out of here. Oh, my God.

[April Ajoy]

So, and, and that's not, that's not being tongue in cheek, you know, like Fargo. I don't know if you ever watch Fargo, the show or the movie, but it says, like, this is a true story. It's not a true story. But it's just. This is not that, though. Like, the people that are. That make these movies genuinely believe it's a true story that just hasn't happened yet. And that is, that's a, that's a problem. You're presenting this, this insane theology that, that everyone is either on God's side or Satan's side and there's no middle ground. And you're presenting it as fact, as this is factual. This is a true theology and absolute truth.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And this ideology, whether we like it or not, drives a lot of U.S. foreign policy. Again, people can go to the podcast episode on TNE that we just dropped that will go into all the details, but people like Mike Huckabee, Israel's the ambassador to Israel, believes in this stuff. Ted Cruz believes in this stuff. J.D. vance, to a degree, believes in this stuff. Like, these are folks who believe this is really gonna happen. They're on the lookout for all these things to be fulfilled, and they're in charge of American foreign policy. And again, that's why we're covering it. Right? This isn't some fringe ideology that is just some dark corner of the Internet that we're poking fun at. Like, people in real positions of power believe this stuff, and it influences and impacts the lives of millions of people around the world. So. Yep.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. Do you remember that song, too? That was like, there's no time to change your mind. The sun has come and you've been left behind.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. DC Talk covered it and that's how I knew it. It was live. I wish we'd all be. That's it. Been ready.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't sing on the show. You do that for good reason.

[April Ajoy]

The drama.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, I mean, friends, I would love to know what you think if you've been taught about Rapture theology. So, of course, make sure you leave a comment below. If you're listening on podcast, we'd love to hear your feedback. You can email us at the Tim and [e-mail] But I think this is a pretty successful recap of our experience with the Rapture.

[April Ajoy]

I know. It doesn't even. We didn't even get into the Hell houses or the kidnapping of the youth to take them to see a thief in the night.

[Tim Whitaker]

We gotta save Hell Houses for October. That's Halloween.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, yeah. Well, buckle up.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. We have so much content. All right, friends, thanks for being here. Appreciate it. I'm Tim.

[April Ajoy]

I'm April.

[Tim Whitaker]

See ya.

[April Ajoy]

La.