33. Exposing the Hate of MAGA Christianity

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Exposing the Hate of MAGA Christianity"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Tim & April Show
• Host/Author: The New Evangelicals
• Description: Where we unravel faith, politics, and culture.
• Episode: 33. Exposing the Hate of MAGA Christianity
• Release Date: July 14, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 33 of The Tim & April Show, hosts Tim Whitaker and April Ajoy delve deep into the troubling intersection of Christianity and the MAGA movement. Titled "Exposing the Hate of MAGA Christianity," the episode examines how certain segments within evangelical communities have aligned with extremist political ideologies, leading to policies and behaviors that contradict foundational Christian values.

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1. The Struggles of Content Creation in Negative Topics

Tim and April begin by expressing their frustration with the nature of their content creation. They lament the constant focus on distressing topics such as Christian nationalism, racism, and other social issues, contrasting it with the seemingly more pleasant content produced by other creators.

• Tim Whitaker [03:46]: "Have you ever thought about the fact that we, for whatever reason, have, like, the worst content creation job out of all the possible content creation jobs out there?"
• April Ajoy [04:05]: "I wish my level of content creation was just like taking a cute little picture of a milkshake on a beach with a little umbrella in it."

Their discussion highlights the emotional toll of consistently navigating heavy and often disheartening subjects, emphasizing a desire for more uplifting content.

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2. The Internal Conflict with Faith and Evangelical Values

The hosts delve into their personal journeys, revealing how their evangelical upbringing instilled values of love, truth-seeking, and compassion. Despite these values, they find themselves distancing from their faith communities due to the misalignment between professed beliefs and actual practices.

• Tim Whitaker [06:10]: "Our faith went wild. We had this moment, right, where it's like, something is wrong in our faith tradition..."
• Tim Whitaker [07:09]: "The values I was given haven't changed. In fact, those values of trying to seek the truth, of trying to love my neighbor have led me out of those spaces."

They discuss how core evangelical teachings have driven them to reevaluate and ultimately reject certain aspects of their faith communities that perpetuate harmful ideologies.

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3. Critique of Christian Nationalist Leadership

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to critiquing influential evangelical leaders who support the MAGA movement. Tim and April analyze specific instances where pastors and Christian nationalists endorse policies and figures that promote division and hatred.

• Tim Whitaker [10:01]: "Josh Howerton... one of the most popular Christian nationalist pastors... promoting land and policies that are so blatantly contrary to their values."
• April Ajoy [11:56]: "This guy has his head so far up his ass, I don't even know what to say."

They highlight a clip featuring a megachurch pastor explicitly supporting President Trump, criticizing the blatant disregard for Christian principles of love and compassion in favor of political allegiance.

• Clip [12:27]: "I have yet to read or hear one thing said or done as a Christian pastor that my heart doesn't leap and rejoice for."

The hosts condemn the hypocrisy and the misuse of religious authority to justify harmful political stances.

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4. Hypocrisy and Motivated Literalism in Biblical Interpretation

Tim and April explore the concept of motivated literalism, where biblical texts are interpreted selectively to support predetermined agendas rather than seeking true understanding.

• Tim Whitaker [53:38]: "Everyone cherry picks. Everyone that I cherry pick 100% because the Bible is not to be taken literally."
• Steve Coley Reference [53:37]: "Motivated literalism allows evangelicals to insist that the earth and all its contents were created in six 24 hour days, while maintaining other interpretations."

They critique how certain evangelicals ignore or reinterpret biblical commandments that don't align with their political views, leading to inconsistent and self-serving interpretations of scripture.

• Tim Whitaker [55:00]: "You just think, oh, like, obviously this is what Paul meant. No, wait, no, that's not what he meant."

This selective interpretation undermines the integrity of Christian teachings, fostering an environment where discrimination and bigotry are justified under the guise of religious doctrine.

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5. Personal Reflections and Call to Love and Empathy

Throughout the episode, Tim and April emphasize the importance of maintaining love and empathy, even towards those who perpetuate hate and division. They discuss the challenge of opposing harmful ideologies without dehumanizing the individuals who support them.

• April Ajoy [58:30]: "They act like, yeah, like if you touch it, you catch it."
• Tim Whitaker [60:22]: "You love your immigrant neighbor, well, that's not really Christian."

They advocate for a Christian approach that aligns actions with the true teachings of Jesus, focusing on genuine love rather than hollow rhetoric.

• April Ajoy [61:40]: "Love your enemy and turn the other cheek..."
• Tim Whitaker [59:13]: "Matthew 7:21... only the ones who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of heaven."

Their reflections call for a return to authentic Christian values that promote justice, compassion, and integrity.

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Conclusion

In this emotionally charged episode, Tim Whitaker and April Ajoy provide a critical examination of how certain evangelical leaders and communities have diverged from foundational Christian values by aligning with the MAGA movement. Through personal testimonies, scriptural critiques, and passionate discourse, they expose the hypocrisy and harmful impacts of Christian nationalism. The hosts advocate for a sincere and compassionate interpretation of faith that truly embodies love, justice, and respect for all individuals.

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Notable Quotes:

• Tim Whitaker [07:09]: "The values I was given haven't changed... those values of trying to seek the truth, of trying to love my neighbor have led me out of those spaces."
• April Ajoy [14:29]: "But Planned Parenthood. Most of what Planned Parenthood does is not abortions. They do healthcare, they do gynecology, they do birth control."
• Tim Whitaker [12:43]: "I'm feeling extra spicy today... dude, do you know how to read."
• April Ajoy [48:09]: "I don't believe in hell anymore... I don't see there's nothing wrong with being, being queer."
• Tim Whitaker [58:30]: "It's a dog whistle for just being a homophobe or a transphobe. And it's not loving."

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Contact and Engagement

For those interested in further discussions and updates, The Tim & April Show encourages listeners to engage via their YouTube channel, Instagram, and email at [e-mail].

Transcript

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[Tim Whitaker]

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[April Ajoy]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hi.

[April Ajoy]

Hello.

[Experian]

Dang it.

[Tim Whitaker]

We're gonna get. We're gonna get into some kind of rhythm someday, April.

[April Ajoy]

I don't know why we never just we're always like, yeah, let's record. Go. And then as the little opening is playing, I'm like, do I start? Does Tim start? Talk about it again?

[Tim Whitaker]

We're both thinking the same thing. Like, okay, then we think, you know what? We're just gonna take charge and go for it. And the outcome is that. Awkward intro. Hi, everyone. I'm Tim Whitaker. April.

[April Ajoy]

I'm April Ajoy.

[Tim Whitaker]

Welcome to the Tim and April show.

[April Ajoy]

It is a great day to record an episode.

[Tim Whitaker]

Sure, sure. Is there any. Have you. Okay, let me ask you a question. Have you ever thought about the fact that we, for whatever reason, have, like, the worst content creation job out of all the possible content creation jobs out there? Meaning, like, we're in a world where we cover the worst news possible. We don't cover technology. We're not talking about makeup, fashion. We're not talking about, you know, like, sports. No. We're talking about Christian nationalism half the time and lamenting and crying, and that's what we get to do as content creators.

[April Ajoy]

I wish my. My level of content creation was just like taking a cute little picture of a milkshake on a beach with a little umbrella in it and.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

You know.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

Putting some kind of scripture verse along with.

[Tim Whitaker]

There, there. So there is a. There's a whole travel influencer industry, and there are people who make content on YouTube where they, like, tour the world's most luxurious cruises or they do the most luxurious train rides. I'm talking like, like, like $45,000. Okay. Expense for a train ride in Asia. I. I've watched these videos, and I'm like, why didn't I get into this? Why. Why am I. Why am I talking about things that only are so painful?

[April Ajoy]

Why did we get into the content creation that just brings existential dread every day?

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. Rapture theology, Christian nationalism, racism, all the isms, xenophobia. Oh, my goodness. But it is. Listen, I mean, we. We did it, April, because we're passionate about this stuff and because our faith went. Went wild. We had this moment, right, where it's like, something is wrong in our faith tradition, and we cared about this stuff enough to start talking about it online. And now we do this all the time. But I will say it is. I will. It is really cathartic to know that the audience feels seen because they help us feel seen by knowing that they feel seen. So that part does feel really nice. You know, there is obviously a real privilege to doing this, but. But, man, there are days where I'm like, maybe I should just get into the travel influencer industry and take my family on cruises and. And rate the cruise. You know, Disney pays for it because we're so popular. We get first class everything and our job is just to have a good time.

[April Ajoy]

People coming around and call us demons every other day.

[Tim Whitaker]

What a life.

[April Ajoy]

Fun times. Oh, yay.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep, yep. And Satan worshippers and baby killers. Yeah, it's great.

[April Ajoy]

So, you know what?

[Tim Whitaker]

Anyway, how you doing, audience?

[April Ajoy]

Giving me a great sense of humor.

[Tim Whitaker]

So leave us a comment or something on YouTube.

[April Ajoy]

Dark comedy. Learn to appreciate it.

[Tim Whitaker]

That is true.

[April Ajoy]

I don't think so. We only did it the one time.

[Tim Whitaker]

Do you think we're going to cry on this episode?

[April Ajoy]

Like a week and a half ago? We.

[Tim Whitaker]

We did cry on our live. What, two weeks ago? Yeah. Yeah. Because it kind of hit me, like, it just hit me all at once. All the feelings of the. All the feelings of the reality that my faith tradition is responsible for so much of the pain that is happening in the lives of other people who are not like them. I mean, we built a freaking concentration camp in the swamplands of Florida and they're selling merch. And Christians are supporting this. Christians are liking this. Christians are buying the merchants. How can you not cry? How can you not cry? And that's what's interesting, I think. And what we should talk about today is I really struggle still making sense of the so many of the values I was given in this tradition and how the values. It's okay, hear me out. Let me try and flush out this thought and get your reaction.

[April Ajoy]

Flush it out. Flush that out.

[Tim Whitaker]

So I think about the values I was taught as a child in white evangelical churches. Like, like. And by that I mean the songs I sung, the messages I heard, the stories in the Bible I was taught, right? And the general theme I was taught as a child was that God loves the whole world. God loves every human being on the planet. Jesus, you know, using the songs, right? Jesus loves me. This I know. And you also are taught that you're like, you know, kind of like in this Lord's army, trying to be a force for good. At least that's how they. They phrase it to children. And frankly, all of those values in so many ways are still a key component of what animates me as an adult 36 years later. Now those values, ironically, have led me out of those spaces. So, for example, right, if we're taught as kids, like John 3:16, for God so loved the whole world that he gave his only begotten son, right? That whoever believes in him would not perish but have eternal life. Right. Okay, so God loves the whole world is the thought that is what drove me to reconsider my positions on queer inclusion and on immigration and on abortion and on all of these different topics that my tradition gave me a one sided view on. Right. And so I say this because, yes, it's true that I have changed a lot of my opinions on like, what is the Bible, you know, what do we do on certain topics for sure. But the values I was given haven't changed. In fact, those values of trying to seek the truth, of trying to love my neighbor have led me out of those spaces. And what's so weird to me now is watching so many Christians, ones that I know personally and ones that I see in the online world, claim to have those values, but advocate for policies and ideas that are so blatantly contrary to those values. And that's what all these years later, I'm still trying to wrap my head around and I don't know, like how they cannot see that so many of their views are incredibly hateful of their neighbors who are not like them. It blows my mind.

[April Ajoy]

It's a two part of frustration. It's the one where they are supporting really dehumanizing and awful policies and they are also gaslighting us at the same time and saying, no, these are actually Christian policies and loving policies. Right. So like, while you were talking, I was trying to find this video that I had sent you and I couldn't remember where I sent it to you because we have way too many chats open, by the way.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, this one.

[April Ajoy]

But I found it. And so this is a podcast. I think they're all pastors.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm pretty sure that's right.

[April Ajoy]

And this guy goes on and he's just praising Trump from a Christian pastoral perspective. I don't know if you have it, but I'll pull it right now because you have it is a very confusing time. Because on one hand we clearly see how anti Christian or antichrist teachings so many of these policies are. They're dehumanizing. So hateful, all the things. And also we're seeing at the same time this praise of Donald Trump, of he's this great Christian leader and God is really using him and Christians should be excited. And it's, it's this, it's a really. The contrast is, is steep and stark.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hang on, I got it. Here, let me pull this. It wouldn't download for some reason, but I got it. Okay. Yeah, so. So the people on this the people on this screen, I'll pull it up. So the people on the screen, okay, from, from, from the top left, all the way down on the left is Ryan Visconti. He's a megachurch pastor. His. His church does the worship for Turning Point USA's America Fest. Okay. Of course on the right, and he's. He's in Arizona, I believe. On the right, top right, is Josh Howerton. He is one of the most, I would say, most popular Christian nationalist pastors. He runs, I think Lake Point Church is what he runs. Massive mega church. I mean, many campuses. The bottom left, I forgot his name, but he runs. And this is, this is true. The name of his church is called Mercy Culture. Oh, and the guy in the bottom right, I don't know his name, but he's also another mega church pastor. He's gone viral several times for saying just ridiculous things. So all four of these bros started this podcast of, of. Of, you know, four megachurch pastors talking about Landon Shot. That's it. Yes. Landed shot. Yes.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

And there's. There's some real shit with his church, and people want to look into that. There's some real stuff that's gone on behind the scenes that's like the opposite of mercy. Landon Shot is the guy who brought back Michael Brown. He's the guy who has credible accusations of sexual assault and, and essentially said that, like, people who critique Michael Brown are, like, worthy of, like, possession, demon possession. Like, it's that. It's that kind of mantra, you know? And the guy in the bottom right, I forgot his name, like I said. But he's definitely a mega church pastor. So here you go. Here, here's the clip that they shared from their accounts here.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

A bunch of. Yeah.

[Experian]

Explicitly support what this president's doing. And I've been following this president's administration closely. I have yet to read or hear one thing said or done as a Christian pastor that my heart doesn't leap and rejoice for.

[Tim Whitaker]

I go further.

[Experian]

I believe every Christian pastor has a moral obligation to stand with this administration because this administration, as far as we can tell so far in everything they have done, and I care about action and everything they have done are aligning themselves with the moral law of God. And if we can't stand and support that, we just have our head so far in the sand that we're not helpful anymore.

[Tim Whitaker]

Look, I. I'm feeling extra spicy. I'm just going to be a little spicy today. So if you have kids, maybe just fast forward. This guy has his head so far up his ass, I don't even know what to say. Like, dude, do you know how to read. Do you know how to read the Bible? I mean, just. Just plainly and see all the topics and comments about. About not oppressing the poor. And then have you looked at the big beautiful bill that literally is one of the biggest wealth transfers in human history from the lower class to the upper class? And you, with a straight face just said that? Are you shitting me?

[April Ajoy]

What? How? Like, do you. Does he really believe that? Do you think he really believes? I mean, he seems sincere. He seems sincere to say that. So what are. What are they not seeing? Like, so let me tell you what I've heard from the right on why they love this big beautiful bill is one. They love the immigration stuff in there, which, honestly, that is really confusing because the Bible is pretty consistently Hebrew and New Testament about welcoming the stranger, you know, and they. They twist themselves and be like, well, there weren't really borders back then, and they meant welcoming strangers that were already citizens. And. And really, no, Jesus actually just meant welcoming Christian strangers. And you're like, most of the people you're deporting are Christian. And they're like, well, Nehemiah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Nehemiah built a wall, so we should build walls. Yeah, that's logical.

[April Ajoy]

All these mental gymnastics. But I don't understand the, like, where they can even get that. But the other main thing that I've seen of them in defense of the bill is that it defunds Planned Parenthood for one year, which is enough to probably shut a lot of them completely down. And so they think they're saving abortion, which, honestly, you've already overturned Roe. I don't understand, like, why they're. What are they. They won, like, they've won that battle. And Planned Parenthood. Most of what Planned Parenthood does is not abortions. They do healthcare, they do gynecology, they do birth control. Like, it is a lifeline for a lot of people that can't afford to go elsewhere.

[Tim Whitaker]

There. There is such a massive cognitive disconnect. And I think this is why so many of us left these spaces, because they told us to read the Bible and we did not even in, like, an accurate way. We just read it on the surface and was like, I don't know, guys. There's a lot of passages about welcoming the stranger, about liberating the oppressed, about condemning the powerful and the wealthy. I mean, James 5, for example, is. Is a. Is a blatant condemnation of the ultra wealthy who rob wages from the working class, like, this is pretty. I mean, Jesus says you can't serve both God and mammon. Jesus said it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom than it is for an. A camel to go through the eye of a needle. And then you tell us like, no, you don't understand those parts. The Bible actually supports capitalism for the corporate and upper class. And it supports all these tax breaks for mega corporations and it supports these, These concepts of, of, of deporting and kidnapping immigrants who, by the way, many of which are actually here legally or who are going through the process. Right. Most of which we know about. Nine out of ten of them have no history of violent crimes. Somehow the Bible supports those policies. But the idea of poor people getting SNAP benefits is somehow like Marxism. Like, again, I just, I don't know how you read the Bible even on its face from front to back and come away thinking that these policies being done by the MAGA administration are like biblical. And these are people, by the way, these four men claim to be authorities on the Christian faith and on the Bible or the word of God. They are claiming to be experts in how to interpret the Bible. And they're not.

[April Ajoy]

What did he say? He said there's nothing he's seen where he should not. Where a Christian should not rejoice. Is that what he. Did he say that? What was the verbiage?

[Tim Whitaker]

I'll pull it back up. Let's see. You're saying.

[April Ajoy]

Because I want to play this and then immediately play that. Trip the clip of Donald Trump.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, so I'll play this whole clip again so we catch the whole thing.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, yeah, just go.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, right.

[April Ajoy]

Just. I just wanna hear what he says about the nothing he's seen that we should not rejoice.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, that's in the beginning.

[Experian]

Explicitly support what this president's doing. And I've been following this president's administration closely. I have yet to read or hear one thing said or done as a Christian pastor that my heart doesn't leap and rejoice for.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, there you go. There's not one thing. Not one thing. Not one thing. Not one thing calling. Calling other countries. It's. It's all good, dude. It's all good. Hold on, hold on one sec. Where's my. Okay, okay, let's watch this clip right here from again. Not one thing he's heard this past.

[April Ajoy]

Single thing that you shouldn't rejoice over as a Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

Here we go.

[Progressive Insurance]

Brilliant dollars. And I got to tell you, I want to thank Republican congressmen And women. Because what they did is incredible last night. And the Senate, the Republican Senate, we got. Not with all of the things we did with the tax cuts and rebuilding our military. Not one Democrat voted for us. And I think we use it in the campaign that's coming up, the midterms, because we got to beat them. But all of the. All of the things that we've given. And they wouldn't vote only because they hate Trump. But I hate them, too. You know that. So it's sort of. I really do. I hate them. I cannot stand them because I really believe they hate our country. You want to know the truth? But it kicks illegal aliens off of Medicaid and food stamps and allows US to hire 3,000 new Border Patrol agents.

[Tim Whitaker]

And there you go. Not.

[April Ajoy]

Not.

[Tim Whitaker]

Not one thing, April. Not one thing. Not one thing.

[April Ajoy]

My Christian heart rejoices hearing a president say that they hate half of a whole country.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. Oh, and also the fact that we're bragging about kicking what they think are illegal immigrants off of, you know, benefits that might actually help feed their families. I'm sorry, I don't care if they're undocumented or not. Like we have the resources to provide meals for families who are struggling to make ends meet, period. Hot take. Hot take. But guess what? As a Christian, someone's legal status doesn't define how I treat them. I know this is gonna blow people's minds, but it doesn't define how I treat them or how we should treat them as a country just because of their, quote, unquote, legal status by a system, by the way, that is intentionally set up to make it as difficult as possible for immigrants to become documented. Period.

[April Ajoy]

Also, I'm pretty sure it's inaccurate to say that, quote, unquote, illegal immigrants are on Medicaid. Just a quick Google search. Of course, I brought it up for me, so who knows it's right. But I like. They don't have. They are not eligible for most federally funded programs, including Medicaid.

[Tim Whitaker]

That makes sense because they don't have Social Security numbers, and you need a Social Security number in order to apply. And I know that because my kids are on New Jersey Family Care, which is NJ Medicaid. And guess what? I have to give them every year. I have to renew my application. They need my social. They need my residency. They, they, they, they. They need proof of income. They need all of that stuff before they get. My kids get any benefits. So I, I completely believe that. 100%. Actually, another point. I can even prove this. So I always cite my friend Muhammad and his story that we talk about in New Jersey. But he's here, by the way, legally, they're pending in the system because the government won't hear the case till 2029. But they are here going through the process. He's been here for over a decade. Still does not have a Social Security number. Still cannot get benefits in this country. And he has. They have a business, a small family business. They pay taxes from the business. He pays sales tax whenever he purchases an item. Right. Still cannot get benefits through the system.

[April Ajoy]

So, anyway, yeah, here, according to. What is this place? This is called KFF. I don't know what that stands for, but kff.org I should probably figure out what that. What does this stand for? Say, say your name. Anyway, they confirmed it's got a bunch of stats on undocumented immigrants and it says they are ineligible for CHIP and Medicaid, which makes this, I think, even more insidious because Trump is, is saying that this big, beautiful bill is taking health care away from, from these undocumented immigrants. And he's saying it as if we're spending billions and billions of dollars on people who are not United States citizens. But what he's actually doing is taking health care away from American citizens, and he's taking health care away from people that probably voted for Donald Trump, a lot of people that voted for Donald Trump that are going to be negatively impacted by this. But he's not being honest. I mean, he lies all the time. I mean, even the White House article that they released about the bill claims that they cut the deficit. It adds $3.3 trillion to the deficit. Like, they just lie.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is exactly why when we see pastors say this stuff, our jaw drops. And by the way, just to be biblical about it, Proverbs 12:22. Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight. See, this is biblical, right? God hates liars and Trump is a liar. But the bigger theme, right, that I think we need to hit on is we see that and we go, how? Like, how did the tradition that gave us these values of truth telling and integrity and love and loving our neighbors and a God who loves the world? I mean, chances are those pastors sing songs every Sunday morning about God's unconditional love or radical love or crazy love for humanity and for the people inside of that church service. I don't understand how they don't, how they don't realize the 10 mile wide chasm between what they think is a biblical worldview and the positions and attitudes and posture of, of Trump in this whole regime. Right? And that's what I keep lamenting, like, over and over again. I keep, every day, April, you and I see things where we go, wait, this is a Christian doing this? And there's like, no, there's no outrage over some of the most dehumanizing things. I want to, I want to pick up one of them. So, again, let me just do this in this episode, trigger warning going forward, some of the things we're going to share are incredibly dehumanizing. They are incredibly vile and vulgar, but they're coming from white Christians. And this is why I lament so often my own faith tradition and I, I sit in a posture of, of dumbfoundedness that the people who raised me also tolerate these kinds of actions. So Ann Coulter, who is, by the way, a Presbyterian, she is a born again Presbyterian Christian. She tweeted the other day in response to an indigenous college professor talking about the importance of decolonization. She said, quote, we didn't kill enough Indians. This is a real tweet. This isn't AI. This isn't made up. She tweeted this. It has thousands of likes, many comments, and I'm thinking to myself, you know, if, if someone else said something about, about how we didn't kill enough white people in history, you know, that Charlie Kirk and probably those pastors we just talked about or brought up on, on the show would be all over this as the radical agenda that hates people. But Ann, culture can say we didn't kill enough Indians, which, by the way, is so disrespectful and so dehumanizing to indigenous people right now who have, who are still dealing with the effects of colonization in this country, on this land. Right? They have people in their tribes and ancestors who were absolutely obliterated because of colonization. An ulter can say that. And it's not even, doesn't even make a blip. It's not even a blip in, like, the Christian news cycle. It's not even a blip. It's just accepted as well, Maybe I wouldn't say that, but, you know, an culver's kind of an extremist. Yeah, an extreme. A Christian extremist.

[April Ajoy]

How.

[Tim Whitaker]

How is this stuff allowed to flourish in these spaces?

[April Ajoy]

I am ashamed to admit that I had one of Ann Coulter's books when I was in high school and, like, loved her. I thought she was great. I wanted to be like her when I grew up.

[Tim Whitaker]

I Heard her on Fox News back in the day. I was like, oh, this woman's making sense. Yeah, I get it.

[April Ajoy]

I just think there's. There's almost like there's all these exceptions, right? You. They say, yeah, we were taught love thy neighbor, but there's a little asterisk, right? And there's some fine print, and that doesn't mean everybody. And there's like certain groups of people that we've become conditioned to be okay with dehumanizing and demonizing and all. Everything that we're seeing today, it's okay to other. The other. And it's. It's like this, this is something that I've struggled with, right? Like, Trump was such an obvious wake up call for me because he was so immoral. Just not a good person.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

And then as I started further and further deconstructing and looking differently, I looked back in hindsight and realized all the times I was being dehumanizing and how Trump was really just saying quiet parts out loud of things that already existed then. But some. But a part of me is like, but we weren't this bad, were we? This bad. Mama, Papa.

[Tim Whitaker]

Hi, my name is Simon and I'm.

[Simon]

In Sydney, Australia, and I'm a monthly donor for the New Evangelicals. I found the TNE in 2021. I'd recently stepped down from my job as pastor. I was beginning to find a real conflict between what I was beginning to believe about God and the world and the church and the evangelical spaces I was in. But at a time it was really dark for me. I was really lonely. I was really isolated. I had so many questions and space where it was okay to ask questions and to share my thoughts and ideas and hear other people's ideas at the same time and just be able to connect with so many people that were going through similar things was incredible for me at a time when I needed it most. Since then, I've been quite involved with the organization, the moderator admin for the Facebook group. And then I've just started out on the New Evangelicals board. I would love to encourage you if you can, make a monthly donation to the New Evangelicals. There's some great work happening and particularly project Amplify and the opportunity it has. So many voice, so many voices, a chance to be heard. I know it's something I needed in my dark moments. It's something we're able to contribute to that can help other people as they begin to smell the fresh air outside that basement of fundamentalist evangelical spaces.

[Tim Whitaker]

So there's a really good book by Anthea Butler called White Evangelical Racism. And she covers, especially during the Obama era, all of the racist things that were done by Christians towards Obama. To be honest with you, I didn't see many of them because I was still very much in the white evangelical world. Right. And I go back and forth because I think about 9, 11, I think about the Islamophobia that Sean Hannity and the right wing media world pushed and that Christians believed. I mean, those roots are still here. Right. We're watching what happened with Zuran Mumdani. He won the, the, like, the, what's, what's the official title? He, he essentially is the primary for Mary. Yeah, the primary. Thank you. And, and you know, the amount of Islamophobia by Charlie Kirk, you know, this is why we have to end all immigration. This is, this is a battle for the West. I mean, it lives on. So I, I do think that, that for sure, it's always been there in different ways. I think now though, it's just there's no more dog whistling. I think for a long time there was, there were a lot of dog whistles that people like us, first off, for many reasons, A, that we were a part of it, but B, didn't have eyes to hear, eyes to see and ears to hear. I think that a lot of dog whistling was happening. And now thanks to Trump and kind of the embolding, emboldenment of white supremacist groups, right? Proud Boys. And there's the other one. They're, they're always, they always wear the white hoods and they should not the kkk. They show up at out of U Hauls. What are they called? You've seen them before.

[April Ajoy]

Proud Boys.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, there's another group. Someone will probably put it in the comments, but there's another group and they show up and they're all, yeah, no, it's another one. I'm sure I'll think about it randomly. I'll just yell it out during the show. But there are all these groups that have been emboldened, right. And so I just think what we're seeing now is the hood is off, no pun intended, and we're seeing what was beneath the surface this whole time. And it's just kind of now they're proud of it, you know, hey, we're proud that we just funded ICE to a record amount. More than the FBI, right?

[April Ajoy]

More than police.

[Tim Whitaker]

More than police.

[April Ajoy]

I thought Blue Lives mattered, right?

[Tim Whitaker]

And now we have a whole new sect of the government that is Going around masked up into states that are telling them they're not welcome here and they're just kicking people out or they're arresting them with no due process. Right. So I just think. I think that we're seeing what has been there without any filter on it.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, I think that's fair. Because I just feel like before things were a little more subtle and there was decorum and there was decency, and there were just things that you didn't say, even though maybe you thought it or maybe you said it behind closed doors.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, right.

[April Ajoy]

But Trump just came in and just bulldozed the door down and aired out all the dirty laundry, which was. Which in many ways, I'm. I'm thankful for because it brought the darkness to the. To the light. Right. Like, it woke me up. Like, I'm glad I'm not part of that system anymore, even though ignorance is bliss and it was an easier life, you know, But. But, like, the truth. Truth is truth, and I want to be on the side of facts and truth and goodness and kindness and all of that. And I thought I was on that side while being in it. You know, I was just. I was very blinded and misguided and caused harm. I have said really awful things, being in that world, thinking it was the right thing to say or do.

[Tim Whitaker]

I absolutely agree. I mean, I've said bigoted, I've said transphobic, racist things. Absolutely. And again, a lot of it was you thought you were doing the right thing, but they were not the right thing. Looking back. And, you know, I tell people often that part of my repentance of that is doing this work. Right. Trying to turn and go the other way by bringing other folks along with me. And again, like, the values for me haven't really changed. I mean, think about, like, think about all the classic verses we were taught. The fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, long suffering, those are all elements that I still cling to. And for some reason, so many, in particular white evangelicals, think that, like the Trump regime and the political outcomes that they're advocating for embody the fruit of the spirit.

[April Ajoy]

Or.

[Tim Whitaker]

Or what they'll say is, well, that's for that. That's for the personal life of the believer, not how we are to govern a country, which, again, it gets. Then you get yourselves in all other. Then you get yourself in all other kinds of knots. Right. Because then, well, what verses are applied to policy and which ones aren't, etc. It just. I don't know. I just Constantly. And I would love to hear from folks, whether you're listening on podcasts, you can email us the Tim and [e-mail] or you can give us a comment on YouTube. But I would just love to know how they, how they think about this, because I still sit all these years later perplexed that the people who raised me don't see it. I don't know what to do with that. Like, that is the one riddle I can't solve all these years later.

[April Ajoy]

Right. Well, I think a big piece of it is indoctrination and, and group think. And I really, I, I think some of it is willful ignorance. You know, that people are comfortable and they're happy where they're at, and so they don't want to know. And so they put up kind of defenses to keep from knowing or, you know, or they've convinced themselves that, that it's fake news or, you know, that it's toxic empathy and intentionally to try to get, you know, to, to do something sinful. I, I don't know. And also, they're watching Fox News, they're watching Oan, they're watching Newsmax, they're reading Donald Trump's Truth Social. And they're not, they're not. I don't think they're seeing a lot of what's actually happening out there. I can't tell you the last. In the last few weeks, I've, we've met with a couple, like, different people for, like, just, like, businessy things that we needed to do for our house or whatever. And, and when people ask me what I do, it's always awkward because I don't really know how to say what I do. I don't know if you figured out the right answer, but I've just decided, you know, I'm just going to be honest and say what I do. So I say, you know, I, I'm an author and I work in social media. And then if they press, you know, then, then I say, well, what do you, you know, what did you write about? And I say, well, I wrote about Christian nationalism and how it's dangerous. And they're like, oh, I don't even know what that is. There's, like, so many people and like, these are Christian people. Like, they don't know what Christian nationalism is, probably because they succumb to that in some way. Like, Fox News isn't out there talking about Christian nationalism. But I have heard from three different people now in the last month, all Christians who have said, well, you know, I just, I don't know how you do it. I can't pay attention to the politics. I just, I don't watch the news at all. I like to stay in my own little bubble. I don't want to know what's going on because it causes me anxiety and I don't know who they voted for. I can almost guarantee, yeah, it was Trump, you know, like just, just the vibes that I was getting. And like there are people that I just know, I've met a lot of them lately who are intentionally sticking their heads in the sand because they don't want to know, isn't it? And that's, that's frustrating. It's frustrating.

[Tim Whitaker]

Isn't it kind of strange how in the tradition you and I were raised in, there's such an emphasis on repentance and acknowledging when you've sinned and messed up. But when it comes to this particular world of politics, those people never want to admit when they're wrong again. It's another thing where it's another point where I'm just like, I don't get it. That's why it was not so easy necessarily. But that's why it was a natural progression for me, especially when I learned about the nature of systemic racism historically and how white evangelicals are at the heart of so much of it. It wasn't a big stretch for me to go from realizing that to saying, oh my gosh, I feel terrible about that and I want to make sure that never happens again. Because again, it's congruent with my values of doing your best to acknowledge when you're wrong and turning and going away from that thing that that's what repentance is. So in my mind, when I was going through this process, especially in the thick of it, it didn't feel like I was necessarily even leaving anything behind. It felt like I was just living more into the values I was given. And it felt like a lot of my tradition abandoned those values for pride and arrogance and anti intellectualism and all kinds of obvious xenophobia, homophobia, etc. And so that's why I feel like in a way, I haven't betrayed much of my tradition as far as like the core values that drive it, but my tradition has abandoned the core values that they claimed drive them. And they actually, you know, revealed a deep, a deep like virus, a cancer, if you will, that is growing and festering in these white evangelical spaces that forever what that for whatever reason, they do not want to acknowledge as being inherently problematic. Like, for example, a very common thing I get from people, especially white, moderate Christians, is, you know, Charlie Kirk is so extreme, though. Like, you know, Charlie Kirk is extreme both sides. I'm like, charlie Kirk is one of the most listened to podcasts in America, and statistically, his audience most likely is white Christians. And I go to his event where he attracts 20,000 plus people every year. I don't care if you think he's extreme. He's listened to, I mean, Mark Driscoll, all kinds of pastors. They have an entire faith army. So it's so weird to watch someone be like, well, Charlie Kirk's extreme. And I'm like, yes, exactly. And he has a huge audience, and they still downplay it as well. He's fringe. No, he's not. He. He is mainstream in white evangelicalism.

[April Ajoy]

He has Trump on speed dial. And I think that's part of the frustration is I've heard that same argument from people that try to play both sides, and they're like, well, that's just an extremist group. I'm like, okay, yes, that is an extreme group. Because I do think most American Christians fall somewhere in the middle, and most people are not as politically aware as we are. Yeah, but the extremists are in power right now. It doesn't matter how few they are. They are. Mike Johnson is one of those extremists. He's speaker of the House Donald Trump. I would put as that extremist at this point. I don't think Donald Trump has any true values. I think he's in it for himself always and whatever gets him the most power and the most money. But he is pushing extremist views now, too. You've got Caroline Levitt, who's out here pushing all these lies and doing it and trying to pretend that it's Christian. You have people pushing very extreme views, very hateful beliefs, and wrapping it inside Christianity. And so. And if you're just looking at it from the outside, it does look like Christianity because it mirrors what we're taught in evangelical churches. But if you dig in just a little bit, that's when you see how hateful and actually antichrist it is.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. And also hypocritical. I think this is. This is a good time to play a clip that we wanted to share. So a lot of you know that the SBC Southern Baptist Convention is one of the. It's the largest. They don't call themselves a denomination, so we'll just call them. It's the largest conglomerate of evangelicals in America. They're massive. And a group called the Good Liars, they went there to cover the event. And they're more progressive, liberal. I don't even think that they're religious. And I think that this interaction between the host of the Good Liars and this person at the SBC conference where a lot of decisions are made for the organization, they're talking about if gay marriage should be outlawed. I just think that this exchange is so telling when it comes to the hypocrisy that so many white evangelicals have. So I think it's worth sharing. Here, let me pull this down and grab this. Check this out.

[Good Liars]

You like to see gay marriage illegal in the United States of America?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[Good Liars]

Yeah. And so do you support the proposal that is going to be voted on here today to take some more steps that happen with Roe v. Wade to get rid of gay marriage in the United States of America?

[Southern Baptist Convention]

I do support it.

[Good Liars]

And how would that change society if gay marriage was illegal?

[Southern Baptist Convention]

I don't know it's going to change society at all if it's illegal. I mean, there are a lot of things that are illegal in this country that people still take part in. Okay. So I don't know that's going to change society very much. I don't think that legislating something is going to make, make changes in like that. It's a, it's a heart change in people. And that's what we as Southern Baptists need to be about, is leading people to change their heart and not just their mind, but their heart.

[Good Liars]

Would you be offended if liberals got together and passed laws that made it illegal for a man and a woman to get married?

[Southern Baptist Convention]

Would I be offended? Yeah, I would be offended by that?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Good Liars]

Do you feel like that would be taking away a right of yours?

[Southern Baptist Convention]

I do.

[Good Liars]

Do you think that gay people might feel the same way about taking away their right to get married?

[Southern Baptist Convention]

I don't know. I don't know how they would feel because I'm not a gay person and I can't speak to that.

[April Ajoy]

The.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's a real clip that. Audience, if you're driving right now, please don't crash into a telephone pole when listening to that because it will make your brain break. I mean, you're like, dude, do you. Again, do you hear yourself? So you think that outlawing gay marriage won't change culture and that's a hard issue, but you're advocating for legislation that would take the take away rights of other people and you don't want those Rights taken away. But you also don't know how other people might feel if you took away their rights because you're not gay. What? Like there's nothing coherent about that. There's, there's nothing coherent about that conversation.

[April Ajoy]

What. So that's an example of those mental gymnastics that you have to have to be a Christian nationalist really to be a white evangelical today because there is such an overlap. Not every evangelical is a Christian nationalist, but Christian nationalism has rooted itself so deeply within white American evangelicalism that if you just are a part of a white evangelical church in this country, you're going to be espousing some form of nationalism.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is data. This is data. 80% Christian nationalism is most concentrated in white evangelical spaces. That's from Prri. So we're not making that up. And I just lament, April. I just lament so much thinking to myself, how have so many Christians bought into this and convinced themselves that this is a coherent, logical, loving, Christ like framework that they are operating in? There is. It breaks all of those things.

[April Ajoy]

I also just. Gay marriage literally has zero effect on anyone else's. Like anyone's marriage doesn't affect anyone else's marriage. And this is the same group of people who get all, get their panties in a twist because of Christian persecution. They think they're being persecuted all the time. They, they play the persecution card. You, you, you know, they say the most hateful racist thing and then they get called a bigot and then suddenly they're being persecuted for their faith. Like, no, people don't like you and are holding you accountable because you're not a good person. That's not the same thing. But here they are literally doing the persecuting of entire groups of people and somehow still play the victim in it, in it all. It is absolutely infuriating. They are the oppressors pretending to be the oppressed.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right. I mean, right now in America, there is a record amount of anti trans, anti queer legislation trying to be passed through all 50 states. You can look this up. There is not one group or organization or bill being passed trying to limit the rights of churches or Christians. In fact, we just saw a week ago now, or roughly a week ago, that the IRS has essentially carved out a tax, carved out an exemption for houses of worship, which is really code for churches that they can start politically endorsing candidates from the pulpit. So like, if anything, their privileges keep expanding and they have no problem taking away privileges from people. To your point, that has no bearing on their life whatsoever. Like like for example, right now, the fact that gay marriage is legal has not touched my life one iota. Not one, not one. No one is, is, is mandating I break up with Sarah and turn myself gay and get married to a man. Like that is not. Gay marriage does not affect heterosexual marriages. All it does is allow queer folks the right to have a partnership that is recognized legally in America. That gives them the same benefits that straight couples have who are married. Whether it's tax benefits or, you know, end of life benefits or you know, work benefits, et cetera. That's all we're talking about. But you would think from, from how these Christian nationalists talk about it, you would think that gay marriage is some looming force that if, if unbridled, will just turn everyone gay. And before you know it, we're all going to be in same sex, long term relationships because the gay virus took over. They treat it as a contagion.

[April Ajoy]

They act like, yeah, like if you touch it, you catch it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

[April Ajoy]

And it's extra insidious too, because this group of people, and I used to believe this, but believe that homosexuality is an abomination that is deserving of eternal hell fire of like spending eternity in hell. So now you have people who genuinely who believe that this group of people, when they die, are going to be tortured for eternity. And then they're like, you know what, let's also make their life hell on earth too. They're not gonna have any rights in the afterlife, but let's make sure they don't have rights in this life either. Like, honestly, I remember thinking like, well, this was one of the things I switched politically on gay marriage before I officially became theologically affirming.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, same.

[April Ajoy]

Because I literally thought, if I believe that these people are going to, to hell, which I still believed in hell at the time. I was like, why am I trying to make their life harder now? Like, they should be able to enjoy the one life that they have. And for the record, I don't believe in hell anymore. I just want to make that clear. And I don't see there's nothing wrong with being, being queer. And I, I believe that it is, it fully expands and makes the creation of God that much more beautiful and more diverse. And I'm fully queer affirming. I just want to say that I'm talking about how I used to think. But even then, past April, even, even then, like, I remember thinking like, why am I, why am I fighting them? What do I get out of that? All I'm doing is ruining their one life on earth. And I don't think that's kind or right.

[Tim Whitaker]

It is weird. And by the way, friends, thanks for letting us just kind of vent and get this off our chest. Hopefully you feel somewhat seen in what we're saying. I know we're a little all over the place today, but it is just so. It's all right. Sometimes you just see these episodes where you could just talk as friends, right? And just let people in on the conversation. It is so interesting when you think about it, that first off, Jesus never talks about gay marriage ever. Okay? I don't care that people cite the passage where he talks about divorce. Yeah, it's not talking about gay marriage. It's talking about divorce in a heterosexual marriage. Anyway, he never talks about it. It is so interesting to watch these Christian nationalists pretend that, like, the Bible is so emphatically clear on gay marriage, but the Bible is not clear on how we are to treat the poor as a country. Right? Like, there are so many gymnastics and there are so many loopholes that are done. Because here's what happens, right? If you cite the verses that Jesus. If you cite the verses of Jesus talking about the poor and the oppressed and condemning the rich, what they'll say is, well, those are not designed for how a government should run. Those are for personal. Those are personal applications.

[April Ajoy]

Right? I know.

[Tim Whitaker]

Then why, then why in your framework is Jesus talking about gay marriage, in your opinion, in Matthew 19, a rule for a nation to govern their. Their laws by. Like, I don't what. What has magically changed. Besides, you're just bigoted. Like, like, I don't understand that. Even abortion. The Bible never talks about abortion, period. It's not there because no one in that world had an understanding of what was going on during conception. We didn't have, you know, sonograms, all that stuff, right? This was an ancient world. The Bible never really talks about abortion, especially as how we understand it. Yet you would think by the standards, by the standards of Christian nationalism, the Bible is so emphatically clear on abortion, but it's not clear on the rich and powerful abusing the poor. And somehow these, these imaginary verses about abortion are to be law in America. But the verses on how we are to treat the poor and the oppressed had nothing to do with how we create laws in America. All I'm trying to point out is that it's not coherent. It doesn't add up. There's no, like, consistency to it. There are great books, there are great theologians who make very coherent cases, right, about the need of a society from many different vantage points to take care of the poor. You can get there as a Muslim, as an atheist, as a Christian. So I'm not saying that, you know, you have to just start legislating the Bible how we think. I'm making the point that, like, if you were going to do that, you would come away with very different perspectives than what the maga. Right. Is all up in arms about. It makes no sense.

[April Ajoy]

Also the whole, like the Old Testament, Hebrew Bible, they love to quote Leviticus when it comes to homosexuality, but they ignore all the rules about don't eat shellfish, don't wear mixed fabrics. And then when you bring that up to them, it's like, oh, well, those are descriptive laws. Those are ceremonial versus descriptive. I'm like, the text does not say, does not distinguish what is prescriptive and descriptive. That was added later by men. Everyone cherry picks. Everyone that I cherry pick 100% because the Bible is not to be taken literally. And nobody takes it literally. Even the people who claim that they take it literally don't.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, Scott. Scott Coley, the author of Ministers of Propaganda. Actually, I have it right here. It's a great book. This book is so worth reading for anyone who has time. It's so good. He calls this. What does he call? I have it highlighted here. It's actually worth reading. He calls. So he, he brings up the idea of, you know, this, this notion that fundamentalists are Bible literalists. He says that's not really true. He calls it motivated literalism. And he says this, he says motivated literalism is a tendency to interpret scripture literally, but only when it doesn't undermine one's material interests. Motivated literalism allows evangelicals to insist that the earth and all its contents were created in six 24 hour days, while maintaining that Jesus didn't really intend to say that a wealthy man will have more difficulty entering heaven than a camel passing through the eye of a needle. Or, or that Jesus didn't really expect his followers to emulate the conduct of the Good Samaritan. And I think that's really insightful because you're right. When you think about it, it's a very selective literal interpretation. Right? Genesis 1 and 2 prove that evolution is false. Okay, but Jesus's clear teachings on the poor or the rich men, that's not literal. That's about the heart. That's about.

[April Ajoy]

That's just a parable. That's a parable.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly, Exactly. And again, to your point, April, like I once you start reading the Bible, you're automatically interpreting it by default. Because we were not around when the Bible was compiled. We weren't there when the authors wrote down Genesis or Exodus. By the way, we have none of the original manuscripts of any of these texts. So we're automatically interpreting whenever we read it. Because we are modern people in 2025, most of us probably in Western, The Western part of the world, we automatically are doing interpretation as we read. That's just what we're going to do. I just think that some people are more honest than others about it.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, well, and then they use that, that verse in second Timothy that where Paul says all Scripture is God breathed. And they use that to say that, like, everything that the Apostle Paul wrote is part of that. But like, Paul, when Paul was writing that letter, he was not talking about his own words. Like, there's so much. There's so much context into the Scripture that when you take a step back, it's like, oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense. Why didn't I think of that before? But then when you're in it, right, Like. Like, literally, I've had Guy. I've had Theo Bros come into my comment section to say that every single word of the Bible was written by Jesus.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep. Yep. Like, wait, what?

[April Ajoy]

Just like, literally, it was not. Was not written by Jesus.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm gonna blow some minds here, but hear me out. When Paul wrote those words, assuming he wrote them, there's a lot of debate over who wrote parts of the Bible, but let's just say for sake of argument that he did. The New Testament wasn't canonized yet, right? Like, those letters weren't all formed. Or if they were, they weren't seen as canon. Like, don't forget Paul, man, we're so off topic, but who cares? I know Paul. Paul was a Jew. Paul was Jewish. He's most likely referring to his Jewish scriptures as being God breathed, not the Gospels, which I don't think were even written yet. Not all the letters that we have today, and certainly not the canonized Protestant New Testament.

[April Ajoy]

Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

But you don't think about all those things, right? You just think, oh, like, obviously this is what Paul meant. No, wait, no, that's not what he meant. Use your head.

[April Ajoy]

If Paul was thinking that he was writing scripture, like Holy Scripture, he would not have included, this is my favorite. In second Timothy 4, 13, he's writing a letter to a specific person and he says, oh, and when you come, can you bring the coat that I left and the books? Because they're like, by the way, I left a jacket at your house. Would you mind bringing that to me? And now we're suddenly like, word of God. How do we take that? What is. What does that mean for today? You know?

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, right. Exactly. Exactly. Anyway, this gets into a whole different topic of biblical interpretation. And by the way, we have a whole other podcast for that called the New Evangelicals Podcast, full of Bible nerds and scholars unpacking all those conversations. So we won't drift too far into it here, but I think just the bigger point to wrap this up is that I consistently lament and deal with this really weird tension of the values my tradition gave me. I'm still embodying. And they've led me to these conclusions. And it's very strange watching my tradition abandon those values, but still try and convince people that somehow they are embodying them. Like, you know, you ever hear Ali sucky be like, look like we. We love everyone, including gay people. We. We love them. Telling the truth is loving. That's such a cop out. And that's so manipulative because the outcomes. Or again, to use my own tradition, actions speak louder than words. When you tell gay people, sorry, you can't get married in this country, but we love you, that is not loving. That's not loving, period. When you tell immigrants we love you as masked agents arrest them with no due process and in some cases ship them off to God knows where. Right? That's not loving. Your immigrant neighbor, Ali. So please stop gaslighting us with this nonsense that somehow you hold the proper understanding of love that just so happens to coincide with outcomes that benefit you and disparage all the political enemies that you've made in the maga movement. Wow. What a coincidence. What a coinky dink, Ali, that your version of love just happens to benefit you the most and happens to harm the least of these. The gay person, the immigrant or. Right. The liberal or whoever it might be. The. The person on food stamps the most. Wow. Amazing how it just worked out that way.

[April Ajoy]

The whole phrase love the sinner, hate the sin is not a. Is not loving in any way. It's almost. It is 99% of the time used specifically about queer people.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

It's become a dog whistle for just being a homophobe or a transphobe. And it's not loving. But they've convinced themselves that they're loving. And I think a part of that is because of their twisted view of who God is.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

Because they believe that God loves us unconditionally and will send you to hell for all of eternity if you don't happen to believe the right way. Yep, nothing to do with actions, nothing to. You could be a great person who has lived a good life, but if you just didn't happen to believe the exact right things, then God, you're worthy of hell. Which part of the problem is their idea of who God is is not loving.

[Tim Whitaker]

I. I hate to be the person claiming to be biblical here, but that doesn't even jive with the words of Jesus. Matthew 7:21. Not everyone who says to me, lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the ones who does, who do the will of the Father who is in heaven. And what is the will of the Father? The teachings of Jesus. This is not complicated stuff. Jesus warns us over and over again. If you don't take care of the least of these, you're in danger of judgment. Jesus says those who do the will of the Father, not just who say Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom. So even this idea of just believe the right things isn't even, like, in line with what Jesus talks about. And by the way, those people don't even believe, because we know, right, April, that you can believe all the right things, but if you do one thing that's wrong, like if you vote for a Democrat, for example, suddenly you're not a real Christian. You know, if you love your immigrant neighbor, well, that's not really Christian. So if you curse too much, if you smoke too much, or all these different. There's always different caveats to, yeah, believe the right thing, but also these actions better line up this way to prove that you're a genuine Christian.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, I think it's one thing that I've been really struggling with. And then we can end. We had a couple other, like, tweets and a clip of like, a really awful, like a pastor was calling basically for the death of queer people. It was terrible. I don't think we need to play it. It's just good to know that it is that that theology leads to that, even if you wouldn't say that out loud. But I want to point out that I think it's really important to try our best to not become what we hate. Right. Which I use hate. Like, I hate how hateful MAGA is. I hate the dehumanization. I hate the harm that is being caused, but I don't hate those people. And that is a. That is sometimes a struggle, you know, Like, I have to remind myself, these are also human beings and as hard as it, like, love is always the harder path, it would be way easier to also fall into dehumanizing maga and to dehumanizing the people that are causing so much harm. But, but I think especially as Christ followers who says, like, love your enemy and turn the other cheek, like, that is why Jesus was crucified. Like, he was radical in that way. And it is radical now to also to extend love and empathy to people who are not extending that to us. It's not fair, but it is something that I have to regularly check myself with to like, I don't want to lose my humanity and I don't want to become a hateful, bitter person because of all of the terrible things that I'm seeing done. And like, I'm. I'm really preaching to myself too, because it is. It's not easy, right? But I do think it is important because I still believe that love wins, that love will win in the end, but level only when, if we can keep our own humanity intact in an increasing inhumane world stuff.

[Tim Whitaker]

What is the quote? I'm not sure who it's from, but it's not mine. That is, you know, be careful in fighting the monster that you don't become, the very thing that you're fighting, right? And I think that's a really important thing for us to keep in mind. And I think it's a fine line, right, of like, how we talk about this and how we call out the dehumanization and do it in a way that is not dehumanizing them, because that can also put us on the path to violence. You know, I don't think that people in the MAGA world think that they're bad people. They probably think that they're trying to save America, protect America. But their dehumanization puts them on a path, whether they see it or not, that will. That has led to and will continue to lead to more violence, towards more people groups, right? And I think that if I'm talking about you and me, April, because we're two white people in America, so we move through the world differently than our marginalized friends, right? Our bipoc friends. So that's for them to navigate, not for us to say. But as far as you and I are concerned, as far as I'm concerned, as a white straight man, I have to be really careful with how I talk about this stuff because I don't want to put myself on the same path that they're on that can lead to violence towards them because that only makes the cycle of chaos worse. That doesn't actually heal anything. Right. So anyway, it's complicated for sure, and there's a lot of layers to that on a social, political and individual level. But I think the genuine, the. The general theme that you're talking about is really important for us to keep in mind.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. All right, so this episode, great therapy session all over the place.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wow, April, you're a great therapist. I feel so much better.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, am I?

[Tim Whitaker]

Great.

[April Ajoy]

I'm glad you feel better.

[Tim Whitaker]

Friends, thank you so much for tuning in. We go live every Thursday at 12:00 clock Eastern on YouTube and we drop a pre recorded episode and the live video on Friday on both YouTube and podcast. So you can follow us anywhere on Follow us on Instagram at the Tim and April show. And thanks so much for listening. I really appreciate you guys being here. I know April does too. We'll talk to you all soon.

[April Ajoy]

Bye.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, make sure to like and subscribe to the channel on YouTube, please, please. I say that nicely.

[April Ajoy]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Thank you.

[April Ajoy]

Sa.