34. MAGA Selective Outrage: Chip and Joanna Gaines vs the Epstein Files

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Tim & April Show - Episode 34: MAGA Selective Outrage: Chip and Joanna Gaines vs the Epstein Files

Introduction

In Episode 34 of The Tim & April Show, hosted by The New Evangelicals, hosts Tim Whitaker and April Ajoy delve into a whirlwind of contemporary issues intertwining faith, politics, and culture. The episode, titled "MAGA Selective Outrage: Chip and Joanna Gaines vs the Epstein Files," released on July 18, 2025, primarily focuses on the controversy surrounding Chip and Joanna Gaines, the backlash from evangelical circles, and the broader implications involving the MAGA movement and recent statements from former President Donald Trump.

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1. Chip and Joanna Gaines Controversy

The episode kicks off with Tim and April addressing the rising controversy around Chip and Joanna Gaines, the popular duo known for their home renovation shows. The crux of the issue lies in their decision to feature a gay couple with children on their new series, "Back to the Frontier."

• Exposing the Controversy: April introduces the topic, emphasizing the backlash from right-wing and evangelical commentators who view this inclusion as a betrayal of traditional Christian values.

• Notable Quote:

  • April Ajoy (12:10): “They show them in just a normal human light...and it's some kind of gotcha.”

• Evangelical Backlash: The inclusion of the gay couple has sparked outrage among conservative Christian audiences, who perceive this as Chip and Joanna Gaines stepping away from their previously upheld Christian-friendly image.

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2. Reactions from Evangelical Figures

Tim and April dissect the vehement responses from key evangelical figures, particularly Megan Basham and Matt Walsh, who have publicly condemned Chip and Joanna Gaines.

• Megan Basham’s Accusations:

  • Megan Basham initiated the controversy by retweeting a photo of the gay couple, criticizing Chip and Joanna Gaines for featuring them, and labeling it as "family time well spent"—a phrase she finds deeply offensive (14:17).

• Matt Walsh’s Response:

  • Matt Walsh echoed similar sentiments, accusing the Gaines of promoting "unbiblical lifestyles" and fostering an environment against Christian values (19:47).

• Franklin Graham’s Statement:

  • Franklin Graham also weighed in, expressing disappointment and condemning the inclusion as promoting sin, highlighting the dissonance within evangelical responses (21:20).

• Notable Quote:

  • Tim Whitaker (19:47): “They're frauds. At least now they've confirmed it.”

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3. Chip and Joanna Gaines' Defense

Contrary to expectations, Chip and Joanna Gaines have taken a firm stance against their critics, refusing to backtrack or apologize for their inclusive decision.

• Clapping Back: Chip Gaines retweeted John Root with a Bible verse, showcasing a blend of faith and defiance (29:00).

• Notable Quote:

  • Chip Gaines (29:00): “I didn't try to use it against you. I did use it against you.”

• Positive Reception: The hosts express admiration for Chip and Joanna's resilience and transparency, noting that their response serves as a breath of fresh air in a typically reactive evangelical community.

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4. John MacArthur’s Legacy and Controversies

The discussion shifts to the late John MacArthur, a prominent evangelical figure whose legacy has been marred by controversies surrounding his handling of abuse cases within his church.

• Controversial Actions: Tim provides a detailed account of MacArthur’s involvement in minimizing and covering up abuse within Grace Community Church, including his support of abusive pastors and public shaming of victims (47:35).

• Impact on Evangelicalism: The hosts criticize the posthumous veneration of MacArthur within evangelical circles, highlighting the disconnect between his public persona and documented actions.

• Notable Quote:

  • Tim Whitaker (50:58): “John MacArthur has said in a sermon that all men are under or have authority over all women... this is who white evangelicalism is honoring right now.”

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5. MAGA Movement and Donald Trump’s Statements on Epstein

Tim and April explore the recent statements by Donald Trump regarding the Jeffrey Epstein files, discussing the internal conflict within the MAGA movement stemming from these revelations.

• Trump’s Contradictory Statements: Initially promising to release Epstein’s files, Trump later labeled the effort as a "hoax," causing confusion and division among his supporters (54:31).

• Alex Jones’ Reaction: Alex Jones, a staunch MAGA supporter, echoed Trump’s sentiments, calling the Epstein files a “Democrat hoax” and expressing disappointment in his own base for believing in the conspiracy (64:46).

• Super Chats Insight: Listener feedback reveals growing disillusionment within the MAGA base, with many expressing disappointment and questioning Trump’s integrity (80:52).

• Notable Quote:

  • Donald Trump (54:56): “We are saving our country and making America great again, which will continue to be our complete priority.”
  • Alex Jones (64:46): “Let their weaklings continue forward and do the Democrats work.”

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6. Broader Implications and Culture War

The episode encapsulates the ongoing culture war within American evangelicalism and the MAGA movement, highlighting the selective outrage directed at figures like Chip and Joanna Gaines while larger systemic issues often go unaddressed.

• Selective Outrage: Tim and April argue that the focus on the Gaines controversy distracts from more significant issues like immigration policies and systemic injustices, drawing parallels to how conservatives selectively mobilize outrage (25:00).

• Impact on Evangelical Unity: The backlash against inclusive representation signifies a fissure within evangelical communities, challenging the unity once held by shared beliefs and values.

• Notable Quote:

  • April Ajoy (24:36): “The culture war is still very much happening...there's so many anti-trans legislations right now.”

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Conclusion

Tim Whitaker and April Ajoy wrap up the episode by emphasizing the importance of addressing hypocrisy within influential Christian circles and the need for genuine support for victims amidst lofty political conspiracies. They highlight the ongoing challenges in reconciling progressive actions with traditional evangelical values, urging listeners to critically assess the motivations behind public condemnations.

• Final Reflection: The hosts acknowledge the complexity of the issues discussed, underlining the necessity for honesty and integrity within faith-based communities amid escalating cultural conflicts.

• Notable Quote:

  • April Ajoy (98:28): “The biggest tragedy on the whole Epstein thing is that we're forgetting about the very real victim.”

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Key Takeaways

• Selective Outrage: The controversy surrounding Chip and Joanna Gaines illustrates selective outrage within the MAGA and evangelical communities, prioritizing cultural conformity over broader moral issues.

• Evangelical Hypocrisy: High-profile evangelical figures are criticized for promoting inclusive representation while simultaneously ignoring or covering up systemic abuses within their own ranks.

• MAGA Movement Division: Recent statements by Donald Trump regarding the Epstein files have created internal conflicts and disillusionment within his supporter base, challenging the cohesion of the movement.

• Need for Accountability: The episode underscores the necessity for accountability and transparency within influential Christian and political circles to foster genuine progress and support for victims.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• April Ajoy (12:10): “They show them in just a normal human light...and it's some kind of gotcha.”
• Tim Whitaker (19:47): “They're frauds. At least now they've confirmed it.”
• Chip Gaines (29:00): “I didn't try to use it against you. I did use it against you.”
• Tim Whitaker (50:58): “John MacArthur has said in a sermon that all men are under or have authority over all women... this is who white evangelicalism is honoring right now.”
• Donald Trump (54:56): “We are saving our country and making America great again, which will continue to be our complete priority.”
• Alex Jones (64:46): “Let their weaklings continue forward and do the Democrats work.”
• April Ajoy (24:36): “The culture war is still very much happening...there's so many anti-trans legislations right now.”
• April Ajoy (98:28): “The biggest tragedy on the whole Epstein thing is that we're forgetting about the very real victim.”

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Final Notes

This episode of The Tim & April Show presents a critical examination of contemporary evangelical politics and the MAGA movement, highlighting the tensions between progressive inclusivity and traditional conservative values. Through incisive discussions and notable quotes, Tim and April provide listeners with a comprehensive overview of the ongoing cultural and moral battles shaping today's America.

Transcript

[Tim Whitaker]

Living with schizophrenia isn't easy, especially when.

[April Ajoy]

You'Re not getting relief from some of your symptoms. It can be hard when you're still dealing with symptoms like hearing voices or.

[Tim Whitaker]

Seeing things that aren't there, and negative.

[April Ajoy]

Symptoms like feeling unmotivated or avoiding social situations.

[Tim Whitaker]

If this sounds familiar, it might be.

[April Ajoy]

Time to talk to your healthcare provider and explore a different kind of schizophrenia treatment. Discover your [e-mail] you're listening to a new evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Tim and April Show. We have a jam packed episode today. I mean, jam packed. We're talking Chip and Joanna Gaines controversy. We are talking all things Epstein. There's literally way too many things to talk about. But hi, welcome. I'm April Ajoy.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm Tim Whitaker and you all.

[April Ajoy]

We talked about the intro ahead of time and it wasn't awkward.

[Tim Whitaker]

We did. No. We're really top of our game today. We have to be. Because I was looking at our clip list. I think I pulled. Not, not that we'll show all of them, but we, we have like 20 clips probably ready to go if we need to because so much has happened in seven days.

[April Ajoy]

Way too much. Way too much. Honestly.

[Tim Whitaker]

Way too much. 100% way too much. But is what it is.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. But before we dive into that, we don't want to just go straight into like stupid stuff because, I mean, everything is stupid right now. I feel like there's just a lot of really stupid things going on. Also very harmful, but in a very stupid way.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right part. Agree. Hard agree. I'm not going to disagree with you on that. Terrible. I hate it here.

[April Ajoy]

One thing that is stupid that's not on our list to talk about is a lot of right wing commentators are calling the new Superman woke the new movie. Have you seen it?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. Okay. We talked about this. April. I have children three and five. I do not go to the movies. I. I saw Superman in RPX, you know, HD rumble seats at 10:20pm on a Tuesday night. I was like, I have to see this movie. It was, it was fantastic.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, I really loved it. And I love that, like the only thing woke. I just feel like the right wing people are telling on themselves because Superman was literally just like, hey, treat everyone with kindness.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right?

[April Ajoy]

Kindness and empathy are punk rock.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

And they're like, that's woke.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Look, no spoilers, friends. Of course. It was a really great movie on, on a nerd level. I Will say it is very nice to. To have a. A Superman movie that I'm like, okay, this feels really promising. And you know, James Gunn directed it, all that stuff. What is interesting, though, is that there are some things in the movie that, like, you just couldn't time the parallels of. Right. Because these movies go into production years before they're released. So there just. There are a few moments where I'm like, wow. It's almost like they made the movie two months ago and then just dropped it. So I thought it was. I thought it was a great movie. Yeah, just really good, really engaging, great message. And I am pumped for the future of the DCU for the first time in a long time. So.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm totally with you. Oh, we have a super chat already.

[Tim Whitaker]

Whoa, already.

[April Ajoy]

Thank you so much. The Rural Juror. I'm really. Those are both hard words to say back to back. Rural Juror.

[Tim Whitaker]

You can do it.

[April Ajoy]

Said part would have to. I've been deconstructing for a while. My old pastor is now a state rep in Missouri, and I would comment occasionally. Occasionally. I missed that abbreviation on his post about how it was dumb that the state legislator undid the ABM amendment. Voted it last fall. Thank you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my God.

[April Ajoy]

Well, wait, no, this is not part two. Wait, wait.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, my. So many super chats, guys. Thank you so much, by the way, for the super chats. All super chats support the work that we're doing. Please make sure to like the stream and share our YouTube channel. So part two, first of the rural. Rural. Rural Juror.

[April Ajoy]

I'm glad it's not just me, it's not just you. Part two. But what sent him over the edge was me commenting on his post about MacArthur's death. That all. Yeah, that also happened. I simply said he sheltered child predators and leadership in his church, and I got blocked.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, yeah.

[April Ajoy]

There are a lot of people that are unable to see the harm that John MacArthur has caused.

[Tim Whitaker]

We will also be. We will also be covering that. We will get into that. Yes. And then also, Billy, thank you for the super chat. Respect you guys. Respect you both so much. Thank you for making me feel less alone on this journey. And as we all find a better path forward, please humbly accept my 10% and keep up the great work. God bless, Billy. We accept your 10%. You have given to the kingdom, Billy. You. You've given to God. I'm sorry. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, but for real. Thank you so much for the super chat. It means the world. And I'm really happy that we have helped you not feel less alone. And as April and I say often, you guys being here also makes us feel less alone. So it's really a reciprocal relationship. So thank you so much.

[April Ajoy]

I have another random question for you. This is also not a thing, but you can watch this. You can watch this on Netflix so you don't have to actually go to the theaters. But have you or your kids watched K Pop Demon Hunters yet?

[Tim Whitaker]

The word demon is in the name, so absolutely not. April, come on. And my kids. Does not sound family friendly. Demon Hunters.

[April Ajoy]

No, it's. Yeah, I know. Honestly, the name's probably the least appealing part of it, but it is so good. It's an animated show, a movie on Netflix, and the soundtrack for, like, topping the charts on Spotify. This kids animated movie. Yes, it is so good. I watched it with my kids and we've been jamming to all the. The music.

[Tim Whitaker]

So we've been watching Squid games. Not. Not my kids, to be clear, but Sarah. Sorry, I should have qualified that. Sarah and I, when the kids go to bed, are finishing season three of Squid Games, which is the final season. So we're two episodes away from the series finale, and we're really in. Well, I'm not sure if. If you enjoy Squid Games as much as, like. As, like, you're just kind of enthralled by it, but. But we're. We're hooked. We're hooked. I'll put it that way.

[April Ajoy]

So I have actually never watched Squid Games, but I know of it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, it's great.

[April Ajoy]

It's.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's worth watching. So I have. I have something. I have something. Something kind of funny because this is gonna be a heavy show and I. We have so much to get to, so I'm. I'm gonna speed up here. But I. I did. I was in a. I'm in a group chat with some friends, and one of the friends did this thing where he asked Chat GPT to give him a nickname based on how they've interacted over the past however long. And it was really good. And so I said, you know what? I'm going to do that. So I asked Chad GPT to give me a nickname based on the way that we've conversed. And I said, don't tell me the reason why. And then it gave me a nickname. Then it explained why. And honestly, I feel like it's kind of on the nose, but. April, you're my co host. You tell me what you think you Ready?

[April Ajoy]

Okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

All right, so I'll pull up my screen here. So I said, hey, give me a nickname based on the way we've conversed. Don't explain it, just say it. Its name for me. Snark Angel.

[April Ajoy]

Huh?

[Tim Whitaker]

And I said, okay. I said, okay, now explain it. And it says, snark angel is a blend of your sharp, no BS tone with your clear moral drive to protect and uplift others. You've got a prophetic edge, but it's wrapped in sarcasm, compassion, and a commitment to justice. It fits someone who calls out hypocrisy with wit and grace and maybe just a touch of holy fire. I was like, wow, you know, I like this. And then I said, what do you think I look like? Okay. And this is where I was like, wow. It goes, if I had to guess, based on your vibe, you give off the energy of someone with expressive eyes, probably tired from reading too much news. A solid hoodie rotation, and the kind of hair that says, I have important things to say in zero time for moose, which is so true. Maybe a beard. Strategically scruffy. And definitely someone who owns at least one enamel pin that says, resist or love your neighbor. No exceptions. Now, I don't own that pin, but I do own this shirt that literally says love. No exclusions, no exceptions. So a little eerie how on the nose that was for me.

[April Ajoy]

Do they know. Do they know your name when you're talking? So could it. Being an AI, Wouldn't they have access to your public Persona?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, I mean, it knows that. Who I am. I've asked it before. Do you know who Tim Whitaker is from the New Evangelicals? It gives you the whole freaking bio. But. Yeah, but I'm just saying, the idea, though, of just. It kind of like nailing me, like, that was like, dude, yeah. A little on the nose.

[April Ajoy]

So that is a little on the nose. I should see what it says about me. I like.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. Is that good?

[April Ajoy]

Feels like that's something you'd see in a WW JD chat room.

[Tim Whitaker]

That would be my. My. If I still was into the ufc, I. That would be like my. My. My walkout name, you know? Snark Angel.

[April Ajoy]

Love that. Love that for you. Don't you have a. You have a quick announcement, right? That's more housekeeping. Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay. Announcement time. Yeah. So many people know that the Tiffany April show is a production of the New Evangelicals, an organization that I started about four years ago. We have a new executive director, Melinda Hale. She's amazing. And one of her first orders of business was to demand that I take a month off to rest. And so I will be doing that this August. I will be out of commission on both the Tim and April show and on the tne, Instagram and content side for an entire month. And I will say I am looking forward to it. I obviously, April, you know how much I love this work. You know how much you and I both eat and breathe and sleep with this stuff. But I am looking forward to having a month away. I'll still be posting on my personal accounts at Tim Whitaker Speaks on Instagram and substack. I'll still be doing that occasionally. But yeah, I'm taking a month off and I'll be hanging out with the family. We're moving into a new house. We'll be getting a new studio set up. So I have work to do for sure. But no TNE or Tim and April show for a month for me.

[April Ajoy]

I think that is a much deserved break. We all, we all need to take breaks and take care of ourselves. And I'm glad that you will be taking a break. But just so everyone knows, the show will go on. I will be hosting the lives for all of August and every Thursday I'll have a different guest host that will.

[Tim Whitaker]

Host and you got, you got some great guests. I mean, I'm a little, I'm a little jealous. I won't be there with the guests because I'm like, I love all of them. They're all amazing, you know.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, it should be, it should be a grand old time. It'll be fun. So. But we will miss you. And then also just we will take a step back from doing our Monday shows. So the pre recorded episodes we won't do, but we'll just do just the lives. So.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep, yep, yep.

[April Ajoy]

Are you going to stalk me on the lives and show up in the comments?

[Tim Whitaker]

You know, I told Melinda, I said, look, change all the passwords, kick me out of here. Like I really need, I really need to turn off. And also it is a trust thing too. Right? Like, I really feel so confident obviously in Melinda, but in the whole team and you. So I don't feel the need to do that. You know, I think at the beginning of this work because it was kind of me driving so much of this, I felt the need to kind of always be on, always checking things. But, but we have such amazing people that are doing this work between you and our team behind the scenes, Cassie and Alden and Josh and then of course Melinda and the board that I told myself, Tim, this show Will go on without you. And that's a good thing. And please rest. Just do not tune in. Just do your thing. Enjoy your time away. So I'm gonna do my absolute best to do that.

[April Ajoy]

I think that's great. Okay. Not to just go right into it.

[Tim Whitaker]

But we have a Tim anyway.

[April Ajoy]

Well, no, I, I, I am glad.

[Tim Whitaker]

That you have a break.

[April Ajoy]

I already said that.

[Tim Whitaker]

So, so yeah, yeah.

[April Ajoy]

If that was rude, I apologize. At the time, I was like, we gotta go.

[Tim Whitaker]

You're right, you're right. We gotta go. All right, let's keep going. I'm ready.

[April Ajoy]

I'm ready. Okay, so first things we're gonna talk about is there is a huge controversy going on right now with Chip and Joanna Gaines.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, just huge.

[April Ajoy]

That is a mountain.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wait, can, can I guess? Were they, were they predators? Were they abusing someone? I mean, controversy. Were they not paying their staff? April.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, my gosh, Tim, it's so much worse. No, they were nice to a gay couple.

[Tim Whitaker]

Stop it. That is.

[April Ajoy]

We had a gay couple on their new show. No, what is it called? The Frontier.

[Tim Whitaker]

Something about a frontier.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, hold on, I'll figure it out. But anyway, they have, they have. I think they're featuring three different couples and one of the couples is a gay couple and their kids.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, no.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. And you know what, Tim? It gets even worse.

[Tim Whitaker]

Stop.

[April Ajoy]

They show them in just a normal human light.

[Tim Whitaker]

I, the, the caucasity of Chip and Joanna Gaines. How, how dare they. How, how dare they do that? Wow. You know what? This deserves a scandal. I mean, I would imagine that, that, that, that, you know, top tier journalists are blowing this story sky high because it needs to be talked about. I mean, look. Yeah. Are we kidnapping immigrants and putting them in concentration camps? For sure. But what's more important here, April? Right? The fact that a gay couple was featured on a home renovation TV show or the fact that we're kidnapping immigrants and putting them in concentration camps? I mean, it's pretty clear to me just saying.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, my gosh. I know. I mean, I'm so glad that they saved all their outrage.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

From the Trump administration. You know, they, they bottled it all up just to release it on chip and Joanna.

[Tim Whitaker]

100%.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

I think this top tier journalist, Megan Basham was the first one to kind of break the story. She, she tweeted this out. It's a picture of, of the two husbands hugging with their kids also hugging them. I mean, wow, what a triggering image of love and expression and safety for children being featured. And Megan said on, on, on Twitter. Chip, I believe you know very well that this is not, quote, family time well spent. I would never let my children watch this show. Wow.

[April Ajoy]

The show is called Back to the Frontier.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wow.

[April Ajoy]

And it basically kind of takes couples and lets them live like an old. Like, I don't know if it's from the 1800s, but basically, like the frontier. What it was like to live back then is the premise.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like a little House on the Prairie kind of vibe.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

And, yeah, one of the couples and families just is gay. And that. That is it. That is what they've done wrong. And, yeah, people are. Megan Basham specifically has made this controversy, like, her entire personality the last week. She really has, like, I mean, the stalking. She calls it journalism. I'm going to call it stalking. She's gone way back to not just Chip and Joanna's social media. She's found, like, people that work with them, that associate with them. There's a photographer that works with Chip and Joanna who's gay. She went way back and, like, screenshotted a comment that Joanna said something nice to him, and she was like, see, this goes deeper than we thought. It's, like, so stupid.

[Tim Whitaker]

Ah. I mean, talk about journalism, Am I right? You know, she found that they work with a gay photographer. Whoa. What's next? Joanna has a gay hairstylist? Like, who knows? You know, the depravity knows no bounds, apparently. Yeah. I mean, we have a few tweets here because Megan. So, I mean, there's. We have so many tweets about this. And I'm going to. I'm going to tease you guys now. The response that Chip and Joanna have had to this genuinely did surprise me. And we'll get into that. But Megan also accused, I guess, this couple of being poly. Right. So she. She. She tweeted out that after hearing from multiple sources that Chip and Joanna Gaines have close professional and personal ties to a strange polyamory arrangement in which a husband and father brought another man into the home, and they are now together while the wife remains to raise the four children. She says that this is true. Do you have. You have. You have clarification on this, right, April?

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. So she goes. This is like the post she does here. There's multiple tweets within it and in this thread. And she accuses Chip and Joanna of supporting this polyamory throuple. She puts throuple in quotes. But what this is is it's a man and a woman who were married and had children together. The man realizes he was Gay the whole time.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

So he's now co parenting with the mother of his children and is in a monogamous relationship with a man.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay.

[April Ajoy]

That's not a throuple.

[Tim Whitaker]

And his ex wife is still around to help co parent. Yeah, yeah, no, that I. Look, I don't want to, you know, get graphic, but that's not what a throuple does usually.

[April Ajoy]

I mean, and here's the thing. Even if it was, it was a throuple, and if it was polyamory, like, literally, who cares? Let people live, do what they want to do. But the fact of the matter is she's misrepresenting this family.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, exactly.

[April Ajoy]

Badly. Like she has such. These people do not understand queerness whatsoever.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, it's rage bait. Right. And again, like this, you know what this family is not doing? They're not kidnapping immigrants and throwing them in concentration camps. Right. Like. Like this family is doing nothing, nothing to harm their neighbors in any kind of systemic way. Right. And Meghan's like, dude, they're in a throuple. Can you believe this polyamory situation? Like, this is somehow, you know, earth shattering news that people have unique marital arrangements or relationships other than what Meghan thinks is God ordained. I would just say, like, it is just mind blowing that. That this is what makes front page news in these spaces.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, well, and if you actually follow that family that she was targeting too, they have such a beautiful family and you can tell that they all just really love each other. And to bring them into this as some kind of proof of evil happening with the gains is 100%. So stupid.

[Tim Whitaker]

I mean, Matt Walsh got in on this, right? So Matt Walsh says that Chip and Joanna Gaines produced a new reality show that prominently features a gay male couple with two children. Shock and horror, Matt. Shock and horror. Chip's response to the Christians who rightly criticize this decision is to, of course condemn them as hateful bigots. It's been clear for a long time that these two are frauds. At least now they've confirmed it. So. So here's what's so interesting about this. First off, Chip did respond to this, right? Like, he responds to the backlash. And he essentially says, and I'll read the second half of the tweet, it's a sad Sunday when non believers have never been confronted with hate or vitriol until they are introduced to a modern American Christian. Honestly, Chip, like, my hat's off to you, pal. You are spot on. Nice notice. What. What he does not say is that those people are Hateful bigots. But Matt puts those words in his mouth at the. As he retweets it, accusing Chip of calling those people hateful bigots. It's just so. Again, it's just. It's mind blowing to see what gets these people out of bed in the morning to tweet or to cover stories like, dude, this is, you know, you know how many gay couples are featured on TV all the time? Like, this is no big deal at all. In fact, it's actually a beautiful thing. It's great that other gay couples with kids have some representation. And it's even cooler that a Christian owned, like, production did this. I love it. Yeah, not for Matt. Not for Matt.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, well, Matt Walsh and Megan Basham, they, like, intentionally misrepresent what's actually happening to make it seem worse than it is for their base. And we know that people in that world don't fact check, and they have a huge level of ignorance when it comes to anything qu. Related. So their mind, it's, you know, it's just reinforcing beliefs that they already have 100. It's. It's just very stupid. And also, just to clarify, too, the couple that we were talking about, where Megan accused them of. Of this terrible throuple, whatever, is different than the gay couple on the show, she just went back through and was trying to find all these other things to show that. That Chip and Joanna are nice to queer people and how it's some kind of gotcha.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

And I will say I was pleasantly surprised that Chip has doubled down and he even went back and forth.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, he does.

[April Ajoy]

With some of them. And has just kind of doubled down on it, which is really refreshing to see because a lot of times when you see backlash in the Christian world, people just give up. You know, they throw marginalized people to the curb in order to keep their, you know, level of power within that world. And I really appreciate that Chip and Joanna are not doing that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. Why don't we. Let's. Let's play the Franklin Graham or not play. Let me show you guys what Franklin Graham tweeted out or. Or. Or posted on his Facebook. Can you read this, April? Or is this text big enough? Yeah, I think. I think it'd be great for you to read this. You know, the. The arbiter of God's moral law and truth. Franklin Graham.

[April Ajoy]

All right. He says, I hope this isn't true, but I read today that Chip and Joanna Gaines are featuring a gay couple in their new series. If it is true, it is Very disappointing. While we are to love people, we should love them enough to tell them the truth of God's word. His word is absolute truth. God loves us. And his design for marriage is between one man and one woman. Promoting something that God defines as sin is in itself sin. Says the man who campaigned for a rapist.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's. It's mind blowing. It's mind blowing. I, I. What? What do you even say? What do you even say? I mean, literally, look, look, this is literally who Billy Graham endorsed and prayed over at the inauguration, this man on his third marriage. But, but go ahead, Go ahead, Franklin. Tell me, Tell me how clear God's law and God's word is about marriage being between one man and one woman for life. As you simp for Donald J. Trump like he is. No, I think, you know, April, I think there are times we just have to say the truth. And that man is a simp for Donald Trump 100%. He's praying as inauguration. Oh, God, we thank you. Thank you for giving us Donald Day Trump back in the presidency. Give me a freaking break. Obviously, none of these fools actually care about the standard that they claim to be upholding. They don't because they don't care. They don't care that Trump's on his third marriage. They don't care that Trump brags about grabbing women, that he was found liable for sexual assault, that he posed on the COVID of Playboy magazine. They don't care about these things when it's their people. But the second a gay couple is featured on a show that they think has Christian values, suddenly they're breaking God's moral law. Like, spare me, Spare me the sanctimony, ultimate virtue signaling. Clearly, you guys don't give a shit about the values that you claim to uphold. We all know this. It is. But how do they not see it? How does Franklin Grant really not think he's being hypocritical? It's unbelievable.

[April Ajoy]

I. Because that world. So they viewed Chippa and Joanna Gaines as their own. Okay, I'm gonna explain the outrage to people where it feels stupid, because it is, to be clear, it is stupid. But let me explain to you why they're so mad.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, I'm ready. Yeah. Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

So when you're, when you are in evangelical circles, Christian nationalist circles, which, to be, to be clear, everyone that's mad about this espouses Christian nationalism in some way, whether they admit it or not. For sure, when you're in that world, it is very much us versus them, right? And when you're in the US when you're in the in group, you have to believe all of the right things. You have to be on the right side of all of the culture war issues. You have to basically just agree. You have to have the same beliefs, you have to have the same ideology. You have to agree on everything because it's a battle. It's a war. It's a war for the soul. And there's a lot of culture war, especially on queer issues, because queer issues directly go against the patriarchy, which is a big root of Christian nationalism.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

There's more to it than that, but that's the gist. But so they viewed Chip and Joanna Gaines as one of them because they've been openly Christian. They, you know, they have all these house shows and, and Christians love with, like evangelicals. Absolutely love when they can claim one as their own. That's famous. That's out there.

[Tim Whitaker]

True. Right, okay. Makes sense. Yeah. Right.

[April Ajoy]

Like that they're one of us. They're on our side. You know, and I, and I don't know this for sure because honestly, I don't follow Chip and Joanna Gaines, but I have seen some previous controversy of more progressive people that were upset with them because they attend a very evangelical church that is not queer friendly or queer affirming. So I've seen like, that side of stuff. So for them to feature a gay couple on a new show felt like a betrayal to the people in this world.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like they cross over to the enemy side.

[April Ajoy]

Right. You're dealing with people that boycott anything that doesn't agree with them. I mean, look at how they just boycotted Superman. Their boycotts don't work for the record. I mean, Superman's breaking box office, like, doing great. But, you know, they boycott anything that they feel like goes against their ideology. And you're talking about people because they viewed Chip and Joanna as one of them. They've probably, they've bought their products, they told people to watch their shows. They've invested in this couple.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

You know, financially and with their time. And for them to turn around and seemingly be nice to queer people, all of a sudden it feels like, we thought you were on our side of the culture war, you know, and, and for the record, the queer stuff, like the war is big right now. You have so many anti trans legislation right now. There's rumors, you know, the SBC just said they want to try to fight to overturn gay marri marriage at their convention this past summer. The, the culture war is, is still very much happening.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's Raging.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. And so they feel like one of their own has left. And I think it's a reason why you. And I get a lot of hate, too, from that world still. Or really anyone that comes from that world especially that becomes queer affirming or that starts to think on their own. It's almost like they have to grasp and. And demonize it immediately. And it's a way to keep people inside. Inside.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay.

[April Ajoy]

Just to not ask questions. Right. Because if people that are still inside. Right. And they see, oh, Chip and Joanna are okay with gay people, maybe I could. And then you see all the backlash that's going to keep people from asking questions like, oh, no, clearly I was wrong to think that.

[Tim Whitaker]

That. That's helpful. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. So essentially, Chip and Joanna were on our team, and it turns out they're really wolves in sheep's clothing. And now we have to essentially up online and prove how terrible they are.

[April Ajoy]

Yes.

[Tim Whitaker]

Because they again, spotlighted a gay couple on their TV show.

[April Ajoy]

Correct.

[Tim Whitaker]

Got it. That's helpful. Do you want me to go through the slides of Johnny Root and. Or John Root? Yeah, this is really good. This. This was when. So, you know, friends, we shared a second ago that Chip kind of clapped back, oh, that's Ali Stucky. She's next. Clap back. But he got even more sassy. So John Root backstory to John Root. He used to work for Turning Point USA Faith. He was then fired over doctrinal differences. He thought that essentially Turning Point Faith was compromising the gospel by partnering with Charismatics. And of course, he blew this up on Twitter as well. Right. He's like, hey, you have to unfollow Chip and Joanna Gaines, her defense of unbiblical lifestyles and slandering Christians who have righteously called them out and ask questions to cause you to not support them in any way. More than anything, pray that the Lord convicts them and they repent of their ways. They need to be a good steward of what God has blessed them with, not conformed to the world. Yes. This is a call for 100% boycott. Don't spend your money. So. So then, Chip. Wait, do I have other. Oh, where's my slides? April, you have to stall. I have them.

[April Ajoy]

Okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

I didn't put them in yet. I thought I did.

[April Ajoy]

The one with John Root and Chip.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[April Ajoy]

Well, let me. Let me tell you, other people that have come out, the American Family association also condemned them. Oh, okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

That. I do have two. I had that slide as well.

[April Ajoy]

Okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

I just want to point out. Point this out for. For. For the ultimate smart snark. So John is like, subtweeting Chip. They're going back and forth. Chip essentially retweets John with a Bible verse, 1st Peter 3:15. But in your hearts, revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. And John says, this is my favorite verse, and it's in my bio. He's clearly. He clearly went to my bio and tried to use it against me. And Chip responds by saying, ha, I didn't try to use it against you. I did use it against you. It's pretty weird to have a life verse that has specific messaging and instruction that you don't even come close to applying. But. But it does seem like you love the attention, so enjoy.

[April Ajoy]

I'm like, damn, Chip, love it.

[Tim Whitaker]

I love that. Hey, that. That's Stark angel right there, right? I mean, Snark Angel 2000 comes out. But honestly, I. I was like, this is amazing, because I was really concerned that what would happen is Chip and Joanna would feel the backlash. Like, oh, my gosh, we have to apologize and say that we're sorry. But the fact that they are doubling, tripling down and clapping back at bro evangelicals like John Root, it makes my heart skip a beat. Like, thank you. Thank you.

[April Ajoy]

I have been pleasantly surprised. You know, I have never watched anything Chip and Joanna Gaines, but this makes me maybe want to tune in to their show.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm so here. Here's how much I. No disrespect to Chip and Joanna. I'm sure they're great people and do great work. Here's how little I care about what they do. I've been to Waco, Texas, and didn't even know that it's like, what's called Magnolia. I didn't even know that Magnolia was there. I didn't go. I don't. I'm not going. I have no interest. Like, I do not care. But the fact that, like, you know, again, that they're clapping back, I'm like, you know, maybe I should tune into the show. Maybe I should download the episode. I don't know. I mean, like, hell, yeah. This is great. So, yeah. Yeah, I love it.

[April Ajoy]

Another super chat came in from Seraphin. Tofu says, I always appreciate the explanations, lol. I wasn't raised in this evangelical world, so I don't know the lore. Happy to help. A lot of lore. And it's very stupid.

[Tim Whitaker]

That'S so true. There is a lot of lore. It is stupid.

[April Ajoy]

You don't know how stupid it is until you leave it behind. But, man, when you're in it, it's like. It is so important right now that Ali Beth Stuckey made her response to Chipa Joanna Gaines her pinned tweet.

[Tim Whitaker]

She did. She picked it. She pinned it. I can't believe it. Where is it? I have it here somewhere. Here it is. It's a. It's a big one. I mean, she. She pinned this thing. Maybe. Why don't we just play the video? Because she pretty much says the same thing in the video.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

So for you. Okay.

[April Ajoy]

So.

[Tim Whitaker]

So, Al, you know, look, I mean, if anyone's going to talk about this culture war. Bold face line. Ali obviously didn't talk about this. So here's. Here's a minute and a half clip of her talking about Chip and Joanna Gaines, and we'll kind of respond as we go along.

[April Ajoy]

You might even tell yourself, if you're a Christian, the more mainstream you are, the more opportunity you have to share the gospel with people. And you might even see that God is giving you these partnerships with all of these entities and giving you money and giving you fame because he is approving of what you do.

[Tim Whitaker]

Can I just say really quick, that is Ali. Ali has fame, she has money. She's in the mainstream. So she is that person. Just pointing that out. Okay, we'll resume now.

[April Ajoy]

Is approving of the choices you make. And that is a very, very dangerous place to be. You can do that. You have the freedom to do that. That is not the space that Christians occupy, however wrong. That is not the thinking that people who love Jesus have. You can think that way. You can completely disagree with me. And you can, as Chip Gaines does, define jud and define hate exactly like the world does. And you can believe, like so many do, that you are nicer than God, that you have found a way to out compassion God, to out empathy God, to out inclusion God, and to out love God. You can believe that. Just know that in believing that you've exchanged the God of scripture for the God of self because you think that you are better and wiser than God is.

[Tim Whitaker]

I just.

[April Ajoy]

That what God calls sin, things he says is sin. That's just too mean. And God didn't really know what he was talking about when he said that. And so let's just ignore those parts. Let's use our own strategy to try to maybe evangelize to people and love people. And let's see how that works. You can do that. I don't think it's going to lead you in the right direction.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, she's done. She's done whining and complaining. Yes. So many things. Can I just break this down briefly on a theological level? First off, you know, there are. There are two presuppositions that Ali has here that we need to debunk right away. Number one is that the Bible is the infallible word of God and is somehow inerrant. And whatever's in it, God spoke. That's just not a factual statement. The Bible is written by people, and it's complicated. But number two, Ali is a Calvinist. Okay. Ali believes that God has predestined people before the foundations of the world to either be chosen by God and be redeemed to go to heaven or to be passed over and left in their predestined, wicked ways to burn forever in hell for the glory of God. I don't care what Ali says. If that God is true, that is not a good God. Okay.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, you can actually out love that God.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Yeah. It's not hard to out empathy the God of Calvinism. All you have to say is, gee, maybe it's unfair that you predestined people to be wicked and depraved and to burn in hell forever when you could have not because you're all powerful. There you go. You know, again, I mean, evangelicals always use the analogy of a parent, right? God the father, Christ the son. If I was. If I treated my kids the way that the God of Calvinism treats humanity, I would be imprisoned for a very, very, very, very long time. I just would be. If I predestined one son that I would love forever while I beat the other one all the time because he deserved it, no one's going to be like, well, hey, you're the parent. You have that authority. No, that's ridiculous. This is the God that Ali believes. So, yes, her God is a monster. Her God's the. The God of Calvinism is a moral monster for all kinds of reasons. And it is so ironic that she has this humongous platform. Probably makes, I'm guessing mid to high six figures, if not low, seven figures a year. Her book was on the New York Times bestseller list. She tours the world at huge events, speaking to tens of thousands of people. She is the very thing that she accuses Chip and Joanna Gaines of doing. And she can do it. She can do it. But, you know, Chip and Joanna, they just sold themselves to the Devil, apparently.

[April Ajoy]

Well, it's also just so condescending because the way that she frames it, she's like, you could do that, but no one who follows Jesus would.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, right. Not a real Christian. Have you read the red letters, Ali? Have you read them again? This is the same person who promotes Trump on, on her, on her Twitter platforms. Like, I'm sorry, can you show me the red letters? Where, where Trump and Jesus have any kind of overlap at all. Blessed are the merciful, blessed are the meek. You know, the first shall be last, the last shall be first. Love your enemies. Like Ali and I. I did a whole response video on the new evangelicals to her take on immigration. She, she completely guts the Bible. She is ignorant of what the Bible actually does or doesn't say about things. And she's also highly anti intellectual. Her, her math is not math once you understand what she's saying. But you know, she has a huge audience and she's sold out.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, a perfect example of that too. She's like, well, when God said it, I guess that wasn't good enough for you or whatever she says. I'm like, God didn't write the Bible. You can believe it's inspired, but even, even by that, he did not hand write the Bible.

[Tim Whitaker]

More importantly. Well, equally as important, the Bible's not univocal. It doesn't speak consistently on any given issue. There's, I mean, again, the God. You can read a story in the Hebrew Bible of God commanding a certain people group to commit mass genocide of another nation. And then Jesus, who Christians believe is God incarnate, right? God in the flesh says to love your enemies. Those are at odds with each other. That, that, that, that is not a univocal portrait of God. So anyway, I, I, you know, I tell people, take Ali's theology and put them, put it in the trash, then hit the empty trash button and ignore it.

[April Ajoy]

And how dare. First of all, Jesus never said a single thing about condemning queer people. Not one, much less condemning people who are nice to queer people. Like they're taking leaps and bounds to twist what being a Christ follower actually is. And also she talks about you can't out empathy God, I thought empathy was toxic. Yeah, of course, now God has empathy. That's okay. And she's like super pro. All these deportations too. And totally literally said I was a stranger and you did not welcome me. And what you do to the least of these, you do to me. She's not following that, but she has the audacity for someone who's Too kind to a queer couple to be like, well, you can do that. But that's not following his eyes.

[Tim Whitaker]

You know what? I like your impression of Ali. It's really good. You know what's so funny about that too? Because she says in one of her videos that that portion of scripture where Jesus says that he's talking about other Christians. And you can make that argument even by her own argument, though this administration is deporting mostly Christians. There's been studies done that like something like 70 to 80% of immigrants who have been kidnapped by this administration are Christian. Allie doesn't care. Ali doesn't care. Even her own standard betrays her. Right. But she's so. She's so up, you know? Anyway, I'm not going to say that, but my point is that she has her head in the sand. She has her head in the sand so deep. So deep.

[April Ajoy]

That was the more empathetic way to say that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, yes. She still is a human being made the image of God. Right.

[April Ajoy]

So she is. Yes. Anyway, yeah, she's a hard one, too.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, I think this might be a good time to segue into John MacArthur passed away.

[April Ajoy]

We. Yes. But we did have two more super chats that came in, so I don't want to forget them. Yes, we have one from Joseph Compton, the fourth. Joseph says, I'm so tired of these fake ass Christians with their faux outrage. They're big mad about all the wrong things they tell on themselves through their projection example. Ali Bestucky and Matt Walsh. I completely agree, Joseph, and thank you so much for the super chat. And then we have one from Dawson Ballard Ballard, one of those. The podcast Straight White American Jesus is doing a miniseries debunking Ali's book Toxic Empathy. Every Wednesday they drop a new episode. Oh, that's awesome.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's great to know.

[April Ajoy]

I like the work that they do.

[Tim Whitaker]

Brad Onishi is great and also not shameless self promotion. But we drop an episode this week as well with the philosopher going through toxic empathy and the philosophy underneath of it as well on the podcast. So that's also out there.

[April Ajoy]

So on the New Evangelicals.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, on New Evangelicals. Yep. Not on YouTube. It's on podcasts. So.

[April Ajoy]

This episode is brought to you by J.C. penney. And if you've been to JCPenney recently. Yes, JCPenney, you'll know it's becoming the way to find good clothes for prices.

[Tim Whitaker]

That still make sense.

[April Ajoy]

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[Tim Whitaker]

This episode is brought to you by Avid Reader Press. Legendary investor Ray Dalio's new book, How Countries Go the Big Cycle explains the mechanics behind big debt crises. Larry Summer says Dalio's brilliant, iconoclastic approach is an invaluable resource, and Hank Paulson says it provides a solution to what is the biggest and most certain threat to our prosperity. Read it to understand the greatest economic issue of our time. Available now Wherever books are sold at Capella University, Learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment counselor who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you.

[April Ajoy]

Think with Capella University.

[Tim Whitaker]

Learn [e-mail] hi, my name is Katie.

[April Ajoy]

And I live in St. Paul, Minnesota and I am a proud supporter of TNE. Like many of you, I have spent my entire life in Evangelical Christianity, but my life took a turn when when my best friend came out to me as a lesbian. Long story short, I went to therapy, I came out as queer and realized I was in love with my best.

[Tim Whitaker]

Friend and we are now engaged and.

[April Ajoy]

Soon to be married. However, this journey has been full of painful moments and coming out to my religious family has been the most dehumanizing experience. In addition, my fiance and I both worked at a non affirming Christian university, so when we came out we were fired. Through all of these difficult moments, tne has been there with compassionate ideas and language that I could use in hard conversations. This work has been a lifeline for.

[Tim Whitaker]

Me in my faith journey and it.

[April Ajoy]

Must continue and that is why I.

[Tim Whitaker]

Am so proud to support the work.

[April Ajoy]

Of the new evangelicals. There's actually been people did you see the tweet I think I put it in there. That's someone who compared the Chip and Joanna's controversy to John MacArthur.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, yeah.

[April Ajoy]

So if you don't know, John MacArthur died this week of old.

[Tim Whitaker]

He had pneumonia.

[April Ajoy]

Pneumonia, yeah. But he was also old. I don't know how old he was, but he was up there. But, yeah. So a lot of people. A lot of people that are very outraged over the Chip and Joanna Gaines thing are just praising John MacArthur as they always do in his.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, where is it? Here you go.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, yeah. Like this one.

[Tim Whitaker]

John Root again, our favorite.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, I can't read that.

[Tim Whitaker]

You'll have to. So he retweeted someone who said, half my feed is about Christian celebrities compromising to the world and the grief it caused to see it, and the other half is about the glory soon to be had for a saint who is finishing his race. Well, you know. You know, I. I'm gonna. Can we pull a little audible real quick? I. I know we have a lot to get to. I think. I think this is worth it, though. So I've been covering John MacArthur for a very, very long time, and I just want to highlight one or two points. I actually wrote this on my own substack. I'm not gonna go into great detail. You can read it there. But John MacArthur was an arrogant, racist, misogynistic man who covered up abuse. And it is really interesting watching white evangelicals praise him as this, like, faithful gospel preacher. I want to play a small segment of John McArthur talking about slavery from 2012. I just want people to understand. This is who white evangelicals are praising as a faithful hero of the faith who was a great gospel preacher telling the truth. Again, this is not from, like, 1925. This is from 2012. Listen to this. Strange that we have such an aversion to slavery because historically, there have been abuses. There have been abuses in marriage. We don't have an aversion to marriage, particularly because there have been abuses. There are parents who abuse their children. We don't have an aversion to having children because some parents have been abusive. Of course, it can have any kind of situation where abuse can. Can be involved. The reason unions grew up in America was not to free slaves. The reason unions grew up in America was because there were people who had businesses and they were abusing their employees. So to throw out slavery as a concept simply because there have been abuses, I think is to miss the point. I'll just stop it right there. I mean, he keeps going. It's two and A half, two, almost two minute long clip. I just need to point out, you know, for someone who is supposedly so brilliant, you know, it's, it's not hard to see the flaw in his comparison because marriage is entered in, into an agreement consensually. You know, at least, at least in the states. Right. People get married usually consensually. Slavery is not a consensual thing. Someone owns the other person, John. Someone owns the other person. And it is really jarring to hear him just. And without, without even like skipping a beat, talking about one of the most horrific actions in American history. Right. A 400 plus year system of race based chattel slavery. It's shocking to hear him talk about this concept so flippantly, so callously and like, I don't get it, guys. Why should we have an aversion to slavery? I mean, just because there were abuses doesn't mean it's inherently bad. Are you joking? Okay, John.

[April Ajoy]

He also, I think in the last year I pretty sure we played it on either this show and when we did a recap. But he's also demonized mental health issues, said there's no such thing as pts, ptsd, no such thing as OCD or adhd. And he also, not only did he help cover up predators who abused their children.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

But he publicly shamed the woman for divorcing said predator.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Can I give the quick synopsis of this? I've covered this so many times I can say it literally by memory. And again, if folks want the details, my substack is at Tim Whitaker Speaks. I put all the articles there so you can see the source material for this. But there were essentially two major stories came out over the past couple years that there were two distinct situations where Grace Community Church, that's John MacArthur's church, essentially either minimize or covered up legitimate abuse of pastors on their staff at some point abusing their own children sexually. And John MacArthur helped to essentially protect the men over the children and the women. The case you're talking about is the case of Eileen gray. So in 2002, John MacArthur gets on stage during a Sunday night service and he says that we have to publicly excommunicate and shame a woman who is living in unrepentant sin. And this is all on video. You can, you can go to the website or go to my articles sources and you'll see it. And he says essentially that, that she will not return to her husband and therefore she is being shamed. She didn't return to her husband because her Husband was physically and mentally abusing her and the children. She went to John MacArthur and the elders to get help. The elders insisted that she reconcile with her husband, including an elder saying that she. That she needs to, quote, suffer like Jesus in front of her children to be a good testimony for them. Not kidding you again. It's in the article. And she eventually said, no, I'm not going to do that. She left her husband. Then the church excommunicated her. She found out several years later that her husband was also saing the children. His name is David Gray. He's now serving 20 years to life in prison for aggravated molestation of children like today. And John MacArthur's church helped try to raise legal funds for him. John MacArthur wrote him a letter while in prison saying, you know, we love how you've been steadfast among, quote, much prevalent error. And this happened at John MacArthur's church. The other story is that a pastor was convicted. He was convicted. Yeah. This isn't even hearsay convicted. All right, the other story very quickly happened. In the 19, late 70s and 80s at the church. A pastor named Paul Gay was assaulting his daughter. His daughter came forward as a child to John MacArthur, confessed to John MacArthur, and essentially John MacArthur really minimized it, kept him on staff. And Paul Gay was not fired until he was caught with the secretary inappropriately. Then he was fired from the church. And John today denies ever knowing anything about it. On top of that, to make matters worse, recently, a couple of years ago, an elder of John MacArthur's Church, Cho Han, said, look, guys, you asked me to investigate the situation with Eileen Gray. We did some really wrong things. We should repent. John MacArthur told him to forget it and then kicked him off the leadership team. This is who John MacArthur is. On top of saying those abhorrent things about slavery, on top of repeating the curse of ham white supremacist theological talking point, on top of telling Beth Moore to, quote, go home because women shouldn't be in leadership. John MacArthur has said in a sermon that all men are under or have authority over all women, that women are to be submissive in all areas of life to men. And this is who white evangelicalism, broadly speaking, is honoring right now, after his passing as a great gospel preacher.

[April Ajoy]

So now, now that we've given some context for who John MacArthur was, pull up. It says MacArthur versus Chip. It's. It's the tweet that you shared, but it's just the full one because there was a line missing, but, oh, this one? No, it's His. It's. It's that tweet, but it's the full one, not the John root.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, I'll get it.

[April Ajoy]

Quote tweet, But Megan Basham. Okay, who has gone. Who's lost her mind? Not that one.

[Tim Whitaker]

Sorry.

[April Ajoy]

Do you need the title? Yes, this one. So Megan Basham retweets this, right? And it says, half my feed is about Christian celebrities compromising to the world and the grief it caused to see it. Talking about Chip and Joanna Gaines. And the other half is about the glory soon to be had for a saint who is finishing his race. Well, this. So this was when he was in the hospital. And then it says, the contrast is clear. And I know which one I want to be like. So remember earlier we showed the tweet where Megan says, I would never let my kids watch this?

[Tim Whitaker]

Right?

[April Ajoy]

Talking about protecting children with. From Chip and Joanna Gaines, TV show, wholesome TV show versus John MacArthur who covered up actual child abuse.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep, yep, yep. And they wonder why we deconstructed, right?

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. And they call John MacArthur a saint. And Chip and Joanna heretics. This is why we left evangelicalism.

[Tim Whitaker]

How much more ass backwards can you get? They. They literally call evil good and good evil. Think about that. They literally defend a man who has. And by the way, the articles about this abuse cover up has emails, has handwritten letters, has witness testimony. It's not just a hearsay article. They are well documented. And the fact that someone like Megan, who claims to be standing, you know, against groomers and against people who hurt children, would say that about John MacArthur and Ali Sucky said the same thing while demonizing the. The gay couple that Chip and Joanna had on their show and is just mind numbing to me. My. My brain doesn't know how to process or doesn't even know what words to say to those people. How, how, how?

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, I don't understand how they can't see the hypocrisy other than, you know, it takes a while to see it when you are in that world with the group think and the echo chamber. And also, keep in mind, Megan Basham profits off of holding these views. So does Ali Beth Stuckey, so does Matt Walsh. You know, all these people that we're talking about, they make money off of having these ideals from the Christian nationalist machine, which is a very powerful, very.

[Tim Whitaker]

Powerful and well funded. You make good money, right? Lucrative book deals, all that kind of stuff. Should be. Speaking of protecting children, how's that for a segue?

[April Ajoy]

That was a great segue.

[Tim Whitaker]

Thank you.

[April Ajoy]

So we we talked about this last week. I have a feeling we're going to keep talking about this stuff keeps happening. This is why Jeffrey Epstein, the list, what the DOJ is doing. Donald Trump.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't know what to do.

[April Ajoy]

Turning on Trump maga then being like, okay, Daddy, so many weird. It's so weird.

[Tim Whitaker]

Where do we even start?

[April Ajoy]

Let's start with Donald Trump.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay.

[April Ajoy]

I think with his Truth Social.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, okay. Okay, okay. Yeah. Okay. You want to do the big long one? The big one, sure.

[April Ajoy]

So this was. When did he post this? July 12th. Today. 17. So this was a day or two after we went live last week.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Buckle up, friends. By the way, if you're listening on the podcast, what April's about to read in one take is all one post. So this is.

[April Ajoy]

You have the second one, I have the full one on my phone. I'll read. Okay.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'll switch over as you're talking. I just broke it up so it's more readable on the screen. But good luck, April. Truly thoughts and prayers to get through this.

[April Ajoy]

It's a. I'll be reading this as it is written.

[Tim Whitaker]

Good caveat.

[April Ajoy]

This was posted on Donald Trump's truth social on July 12th. What's going on with my boys and in some cases gals, they're all going after Attorney General Pam Bondi who is doing a fantastic job. We are one. We are on one team maga and I don't like what's happening. We have a perfect administration, the talk of the world and selfish people are trying to hurt it all over a guy who never dies, Jeffrey Epstein. For years it's Epstein over and over again. Why are we giving publicity to files written by Obama, crooked Hillary, Comey Brennan and the losers and criminals of the Biden administration who con the world with the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax, 51 intelligence agents, the laptop from hell, and more. They created the Epstein files just like they created the fake Hillary Clinton Christopher Steele dossier that they used on me. And now my so called friends are playing right into their hands. Why didn't these radical left lunatics release the Epstein files? If there was anything in there that could have hurt the MAGA movement, why didn't they use it? They haven't even given up on the John F. Kennedy or Martin Luther King Jr. Files. No matter how much success we have had, securing the border, deporting criminals, fixing the economy, energy dominance, is safer world where Iran will not have nuclear weapons, it's never enough for some people. We are about to achieve more in six months than any other administration has achieved in over 100 years. And we have so much more to do. We are saving our country and making America great again, which will continue to be our complete priority. The left is imploding. Cash Patel and the FBI must be focused on investigating voter fraud, political corruption, Act Blue, the rigged and stolen election of 2020, and arresting thugs and criminals instead of spending month after month looking at nothing but the same old radical left inspired documents on Jeffrey Epstein. Let Pam Bondi do her job. She's great. The 2020 election was ranked and solid and they tried to do the same thing in 2024. That's what she was looking into as AG and much more. One year ago, our country was dead. Now it's the hottest country anywhere in the world. Let's keep it that way and not waste time and energy on Jeffrey Epstein, somebody that nobody cares about. Thank you for your attention to this matter, April.

[Tim Whitaker]

My hats are off to you. My hats, my hat. Oh, my goodness. You're really voice, dude. You, you should be a voice actor for real. You're so good at that. I am dying.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, that is someone, you know, someone that has it all together, you know, very, very hinged. Something unhinged.

[Tim Whitaker]

In the span of a few months, we go from, we have the list, we're giving influencers the list. We have tens of thousands of documents ready to go. We're dropping all this stuff. Then we go to, hey, you know what? Nothing to see here. We're actually not going to release the list. It doesn't even exist anymore. Then we go to, no, the Democrats created the list and it's all a big hoax. It's all a big hoax. We go from, from A to C in what, two and a half months?

[April Ajoy]

I know. Well, and I have, like, I remember in interviews, like during the election before he was elected, they would say, you know, he was going to declassify all these things. But anytime they would bring up Epstein files, he'd be like, yeah, maybe not so much Epstein. You know, there's a lot of fake stuff. Like, I feel like Trump was always a little bit hesitant.

[Tim Whitaker]

Totally.

[April Ajoy]

But his base was like, yeah, but he was, you know, he knew it mattered to his base. So he'd be like, yeah, we'll release it. And then he had Pam Bondi do that whole, we're releasing phase one of Epstein files with the yes, influencers. JD Vance is on video saying like, oh, they def. We definitely need to release the Epstein files. Like, this is something that Maga has been consistent on for years.

[Tim Whitaker]

I got J.D. vance right here. I mean, we have the receipts. Okay. We can easily play it. So here you go. Release the list. Seriously, we need to release the Epstein list. That is an important thing. There you go. I mean, J.D. vance, and now all of a sudden. It's a hoax, guys. Hey, there's nothing to see here. It's a hoax. It just doesn't exist. It doesn't.

[April Ajoy]

We have another super chat from Ryan Templeton.

[Tim Whitaker]

Thank you, Ryan.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, later. He said, where'd it go?

[Tim Whitaker]

Good job, April.

[April Ajoy]

Yes, definitely worth a super chat. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[Tim Whitaker]

It was really good. I mean, April, you have a spiritual gift when it comes to reading. It's. It's amazing.

[April Ajoy]

That is my spiritual gift. Reading Trump's tweets.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's why you exist.

[April Ajoy]

That's my whole purpose.

[Tim Whitaker]

So here's what's interesting. Things are really developing. And by the way, we really, maybe we will, maybe we won't, but you could do deep, deep, deep dives on this whole situation. There are so many things even before all of us back and forth with Trump that's just super weird and fishy, like them claiming to release an undoctored, you know, 12 hour stream of Epstein's jail cell, only to be discovered that in fact, it was edited, it was put inside a video editor at some point. There was a minute of footage missing, and it wasn't even aimed at his cell. There's all kinds of things that we could point out. But what's interesting here is that the MAGA world is like really split over this. I would say more are against Trump at this point than not. But, but, but it's been, I mean, like Alex Jones. I think we should play the Alex Jones clip as an example that like a lot of these, you know, conspiracy people that we would usually be sharing videos up to point out how wild they are, are saying things that we're kind of like, why do we kind of agree with people like Alex Jones?

[April Ajoy]

So you play the Alex Jones tape. I think he's responding to Trump's most recent Truth Social post from yesterday or from Wednesday the 17th. And I have it here. I'll just say, I'll just do the highlights because it's, it's another long. But he, he calls it a hoax again, that it was by Democrats. And he says their new scam is what will. For this is in the middle. Their new scam is what will forever call the Jeffrey Epstein hoax. And my past supporters have bought into this bullshit hook, line and sinker. So he's now saying MAGA who want the Epstein files to be released are his past supporters. And then further down, it's, you know, he mentions Jeffrey Epstein hoax again. Let these weaklings continue forward and do the Democrats work. Don't even think about talking of our incredible and unprecedented success, because I don't want their support anymore. Can you imagine going after his own base?

[Tim Whitaker]

This is a President of the United States talking like he's a 12 year old on the playground and his friends didn't pick him for kickball. And now he's like, you're not my friends anymore. Forget it. I'm over it. That's how petty this man sounds. He totally just, you know, spit in the face of his supporters, calling them stupid, calling it bullshit. I mean, I think, I think that, that Trump is. Is in some dangerous territory here. I mean, dangerous.

[April Ajoy]

I think you only go as hard as Trump is going if you are guilty of something.

[Tim Whitaker]

I agree. April, really quick.

[April Ajoy]

Why would you not just release it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Like sanity ride super chat tipping April's performance. Yeah, she deserves it.

[April Ajoy]

Thank you.

[Tim Whitaker]

And Laurel Pigman, super chat. Thank you. Are we in the Upside down asking for a friend? I mean, it feels like the Matrix. It feels like the Matrix. And Laurie, thank you for the super chat. It's like the penguins in the Madagascar movie. You didn't see anything. Exactly. I mean, you know, I really mean this. If you are, if you are a. If you voted for Trump right now and you're watching this live, Trump really thinks that you're an idiot. Trump thinks that you're stupid. Trump thinks that your memory only works for one or two days at a time and that somehow him and his team swearing that they're going to release Epstein files and that they have all this footage and now saying it was a hoax, that the Democrats are behind it. They. He thinks you're going to buy that because you're gullible. So I would just be so insulted as a Trump supporter to see the person that I put so much on the line for, the person that I supported, the person that I voted for, the person that I bought merch from, tell me that I'm an idiot and I'm believing a bullshit hoax when it's clear as day that his own administration was singing a completely different tune like a month ago.

[April Ajoy]

Mm.

[Tim Whitaker]

Let's play this clip now of Alex Jones responding to this and says, you know, this is all a Democrat hoax and anybody following it is only helping them and a repeat of all that. And I'm just like 180 180, 180, 180. Flip, flop, flip flop, flip, flop, flip flop. And I'm just like. And then he puts out on Truth Social. I don't want your support. Anybody that even talks about this again, you are bad. I mean, you know the elephant in the room here. Trump is not stupid. Telling people to not talk about something is gonna only make them look into it more. So I sure hope this is some 50D chess, because I'm pretty good at Hegelian dialectics. 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th order connections. In fact, I'm one of the best. What? Let's just, we can stop it there. I mean, up until that last part about 50D chess, I'm like, yes, thank you, Alex. For, for, for, for finally saying something that is truthful under show. And then he goes down the rabbit hole of 50D chess, and I'm, I'm a pro. Did he say, is it Galleon dialectics? Is that what he said?

[April Ajoy]

I don't know. I didn't understand that.

[Tim Whitaker]

I mean, look, to be clear, Alex Jones is a very immoral and depraved man. This is someone who spread the Sandy Hook conspiracy theory that it was a white flag or a false flag operation and that the kids didn't really die and that the government was behind it. They caused the families immense grief. In fact, it was so bad that the, that the family sued him for defamation and they won a historic landmark suit, I think a billion dollars against Alex Jones. So don't misunderstand. April and I are no Alex Jones fan. But the fact that people like Alex Jones are even calling this into question is just really, really. I think it's a big deal. It's a big deal.

[April Ajoy]

But even he's, like, doubting himself. You know, people have such a hard time admitting if they were wrong about someone. He's like, I just, I really hope this is some kind of 50D chess.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, right.

[April Ajoy]

Which is something that I've seen. So I, I went and looked. I mean, there were thousands and thousands of replies to Trump's Truth Social post. I have a Truth Social account just so I can track them. And I will say the majority of responses were of people very disappointed in what Trump was saying and saying that he's lost their support. They. Someone was like, I voted for you all three times, and I regret that now. And, yeah, I don't know if it'll last. Who knows? Because it does seem like Trump always brings them back.

[Tim Whitaker]

Look, you can't have it both ways, right? If you're someone who believes that there's a deep state, you know, pedophile ring in our government, that Epstein had this list of all these politicians, all Democrats, of course, that were doing bad things to children. And, and this administration feeds into that. And, and Cash Patel, you know, is like, we're going to release the files. And Dan Bungino, the deputy director of the FBI, is like, we're gonna release the files. All of a sudden, go, oh, nothing to see here. No, there are no files. And then the, the Commander in Chief is like, it's a hoax. You're like, wait a second, like, there's no way it could be a hoax. Because I believed you guys for years that, that there was something nefarious going on. Which, by the way, to be clear, I, I, especially after how Trump has responded to this, whatever list they do have, has to be damning. Like, I do believe that Jeffrey Epstein or Epstein, whatever, you know, did what, did what he was convicted of. His partner did what she was convicted of. And I do think that there were people connected to them in political, in politics, probably both on the Democratic and Republican side that were doing terrible things. Like, I don't, I don't dispute that or I don't doubt that. But the fact that he won't release this list and he's trying like the Jedi mind trick, you know, you see nothing that tells you like, so are you on the list then, Trump, because you were close to Epstein? We have you on, on video, Epstein called you one of his closest friends. There is, there was a lawsuit, I think, a couple years ago of a 13 year old who claimed that, that, that Trump, you know, essayed her. So, like, there's Johnson, right? So where there's smoke, there's fire. Again, this is all alleged, to be clear. But like, when you see Trump's response, what else do you let to conclude? We obviously know there, there can't be that many Democrats on the list, if any, because if there, if there was, if Biden was on the list, that would have came out like two, you know, two months ago. So it can't be that something's up. Something's up.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, yeah, it is. It is suspicious for two. But even outside of the Epstein list, let's remember too, there are a lot of women that have come forward over the last decade that accused Trump of assaults or groping. And let's not forget that Trump admitted that he assaults women on the Access Hollywood team.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, right. Like he said it. And he was found liable for sexually assaulting a woman by, by, by a Judge.

[April Ajoy]

A judge? Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay. What. What should I play next? I have so many.

[April Ajoy]

You want to go to Charlie Kirk?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Which one? The one where he. Where he thinks from the Turning Point.

[April Ajoy]

Thing that just happened. Because they talked about that a lot.

[Tim Whitaker]

I do. I have. You know, before we do that, maybe we can get to this one of James o'. Keefe. I just think it's really important to highlight how. How MAGA hardliners are really calling out BS here. What's up?

[April Ajoy]

Yes, we also have another super chat though, from one eyed he. Then just a thank you for speaking against the MAGA cults. Thank you for the super chat.

[Tim Whitaker]

This is, this is a little bit of a longer clip. Now listen, James o', Keefe, again, not a good actor. This is someone who's doctored footage before. This is someone who got kicked out of his own organization, Project Veritas. So he calls himself a journalist? I wouldn't say that. But we're just sharing these clips by these people just to demonstrate that even the most hardlined MAGA supporters. Right. Are putting two and two together because it's so obvious. So this is a longer clip, but just listen to this. I think it's worth going through always. Why, why, why do they always tell the truth only in private? Why do they not say the quiet part publicly? But maybe they say it privately. Let me take you back to the month of April. This is April 28th in a restaurant in Washington D.C. this is the Attorney General, United States talking to someone. They recorded it, sent it to us, talking about tens of thousands of videos.

[April Ajoy]

We hope soon. Okay, no, you know what? It is just.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, and it's all with little kids.

[April Ajoy]

So they have to go through every line.

[Tim Whitaker]

Now. We sent the Attorney General an email requesting comment. This is on May 1, couple days after the 28th. We quoted what she had said. Tens of thousands of videos of little kids. Not something that's been reported publicly. After we sent the email, suddenly we saw this at the White House. James Palmer said yesterday all Epstein files are missing.

[April Ajoy]

No, no, the FBI. Yeah, the FBI, they're reviewing. There are tens of thousands of videos of Epstein with children or child.

[Tim Whitaker]

It seemed to mirror quite identically what we had captured just nine days prior. So just, just to sum this up so far, he's pointing out that Pam Bondi was caught on hitting camera saying this. Then she said it publicly. So there's this. So she said that they have tens of thousands of videos of, of, of. Of child abuse material that is going on. Okay, so keep that in Mind, there.

[April Ajoy]

Are tens of thousands of videos of Epstein with children or child.

[Tim Whitaker]

Something didn't seem to add up. It raised questions. The questions for me and my team was, and this is not an easy story for us to publish is why share that with someone at a restaurant but not share it with the American people first? We also saw this on Joe Rogan. No, we're giving you everything we have. This is their video from the island. Not of what you want. But is there footage? If there was ever, if there was footage of anyone doing anything else, we would have opened a case. Something doesn't seem to be adding up. Now, the Department of Justice issued this statement, which you probably all saw this week. There's no client list. There is no evidence of any blackmail, and there's nothing. There was no evidence that could predicate an investigation against anybody else. There's no story. There's no evidence. Now, listen, as a reporter, as a journalist, I can always tell you there's always a story. It's just a question of to what degree. But to see the government tell us there's no story, it just doesn't seem to add. So.

[April Ajoy]

Especially when you have someone like Ghislaine Maxwell who was convicted of trafficking.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

Trafficking to who? If there's nobody else?

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, right. And again, like, so. And I, I mean, I, I, there are, there are words coming out of my, my mouth that I never thought I would ever utter. But James o' Keefe is right. He's right with what he just did. He pointed out the glaring problem of going from we have tens of thousand involving children to, hey, there's nothing to charge here. Nope. There's. There's no list. There's, there's no, no other actors involved. And then Trump saying, hey, it doesn't exist to, oh, now it's a hoax by the Democrats. The dev. Look, again, if you're a MAGA person, if it was Democrats who invented this or if they had the list, you would think that they would release the list. Right? Like, like, like if Democrats created this hoax and they believed in it, wouldn't have. They released a list a long time ago trying to put Trump on there. And everyone. It makes no sense. Like, what he's saying makes no sense because he's a liar. He's a liar. Trump is a liar. So, yeah, okay, so you said Charlie Kirk, right?

[April Ajoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Okay.

[April Ajoy]

Because he was also calling out the Epstein stuff, and then he got a call from Donald Trump.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

I don't know which clip you have of him. There's so many.

[Tim Whitaker]

I have two. I mean, again, we need to point out here, just watching them squirm, it's so interesting. So here's Charlie, clip one. And I can tell you right now, Gen Z is really fired up about this, especially young men. I mean, we're getting flooded with thousands, hundreds of thousands of comments that are very unhappy about this. And I think they're unhappy about it because they want. And they voted for President Trump on a government. They want to have a mandate where they assail the deep state. And we all agree. We all agree Gen Z is going off right now on this. And that's no. So that's no breaking news. President Trump was elected primarily to go after the deep state. We want to go after the deep state. A lot of this is largely just a misunderstanding. A misunderstanding. Charlie calls. It just got. Just a misunderstanding. Oh, you know, Trump calling you stupid, calling out her bullshit misunderstanding. That's all it is.

[April Ajoy]

He also said he. He said he was going to stop talking about Epstein after Trump called him. Who knows? I don't do. I don't. I don't know if Trump was threatening or who knows? But Trump called him, and suddenly Charlie Kirk was like, okay, we're gonna stop talking about Jeffrey Epstein because he was talking about it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

And then he also. I don't know if you have this clip, but he was speaking to Trump from his podcast. Okay. Yeah. Do you want to just play that?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep. We are messengers here. We are relaying what we are hearing from your most loyal ultra MAGA supporters all the time. And it's not that people are saying, you know, they want to learn about Epstein because they have any suspicion of President Trump. No, we don't think. No one thinks. No one thinks you're involved in any way of that stuff whatsoever. Yeah. The man who brags on the hot mic about grabbing women and he was found liable for sexually assaulting a woman. What are the chances that he'd be on a list of assaulting women or perhaps people who are underage? No, we don't think that. Come on, Charlie. Are you serious?

[April Ajoy]

They get so close to the point and still miss it. But here's my biggest fear in all of this. Now, this is not going to go away. I mean, we're talking about. Jeffrey Epstein died in 2019, when Donald Trump was president, mind you.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

And the conspiracy started instantly, but I don't know how much of it is actually conspiracy because you have people that were convicted of trafficking and there's lots of evidence. So the. For them to Be like, no, nothing, nothing to see here is, is just unbelievable.

[Tim Whitaker]

Can I throw my conspiracy hat on for a second?

[April Ajoy]

Yeah, you want to put your tinfoil hat on?

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm going to. I should get one for the show. There's a clip going around. I'm going to pull, I'm going to pull it up here of Trump. He's talking, he's talking like on an airstrip. The audio is kind of hard to hear, but I'm going to fast forward a little bit. And he's essentially, he's being asked about the Epstein files. And there's a man next to him on the right. Okay, this guy over here on the right. I'm going to play this clip. Do your best to listen to it. Friends, again, the audio is a little difficult to hear. And then I'm going to explain something to you about who this man on the right is. President, I know you've urged people to move on, but I'm curious. Why do you think your supporters in particular have been so interested in the Epstein story and so upset about how it's been handled? Why do you think that is, why they would be so interested? He's dead for a long time. He was never a big factor in terms of life. I don't understand what the interest or what the fascination is. I really don't. And the credible information has been given. Don't forget, we went through years of the Muller witch hunt and all of the different things. The Steele dossier, which was all fake, all that information. But I don't understand why the Jeffrey Epstein case would be of interest to anybody. It's pretty boring stuff. It's sorted, but it's boring. And I don't understand why it keeps going. I think really, only pretty bad people, including fake news, want to keep something like that going. But. Okay, I'm going to pause. You see this guy laughing on the right? Right. He's Chuck, he's. He's literally laughing over this. That is Epstein's neighbor or what lived next to Jeffrey Epstein when he was alive. Yep. Now, I don't know much about this guy. I'm just telling you it looks hella weird that Jeffrey Epstein's neighbor is right next to Trump, laughing as Trump essentially gives a BS line about how this is no big deal and no one cares about Epstein, how he's not a big, you know, he's, he wasn't the big person, etc. I'm just saying. I don't know what the answer is. I'm just saying that looks incredibly Suspicious.

[April Ajoy]

The whole thing is so weird. And so suspicious.

[Tim Whitaker]

So weird. So weird. It's weird. The whole thing is weird. The way that the Epstein died, the fact that, that some guards weren't around, the fact that, that the DVR machine wasn't working. Now again, could those be coincidences? For sure. We don't want to entertain things that, you know, we, we don't want to speak as if we. Truth over speculation. We are speculating, but like, when you just see all the pieces line up, something is not right here. Especially watching Trump go from hot to cold so quickly and trying to really gaslight his own audience by calling them stupid, calling them dumb, and telling them that this is a Democrat hoax. By who? Like Hillary Clinton? Like, are you kidding me? These people haven't been in office in years. In Obama's case, over a decade. It's weird, man. It's weird as hell.

[April Ajoy]

My concern is that after this is not, I mean, it's not going to go away. No, this, this is what we should be talking about. I mean, it's huge. And I do think the way Trump is acting is very guilty. Is. Yeah, but my fear is that because they have so, so much control in the government right now and they're increased, they're gaining more and more control. Like the Trump administration is having lot of. Has more control over the federal government than probably any president that we've had because of the way they're, you know, cut, cutting the Department of Education. All these cuts is just giving more power to Trump.

[Tim Whitaker]

So my fear, sorry, and, and the Supreme Court also recently ruled that Trump has permission and authority to essentially fire whoever he wants from the federal government. So like, yeah, a huge power grab for sure.

[April Ajoy]

Right. So my fear is that they are going to release something and it's just not going to be true. They're going, they're going to deuce it, do it to appeal to their base, but they're going to release something that's just not true at all.

[Tim Whitaker]

Trump is a habitual liar. He, he, he is a man who will still tell you that the 2020 election was stolen. Right? He incited an insurrection against, against the American people. You know, he, he, he lies more than he tells the truth. There is nothing truthful about this man. And my hope is that MAGA hardcore followers are waking up and finally understanding what so many of us have been feeling for so long about Trump. He doesn't have your best interests in heart. He doesn't care about you. He just says things. Now, that being said, April, I Do wanna highlight that there are some people in the Maga world who are backing the President. Okay. Dinesh d' Souza is back in the President. What's up? Are you gonna say something?

[April Ajoy]

I was saying we have another super chat. I just didn't want to forget it. From Zdar Zdar. It says, maga sees the eggs, but can't imagine the hen. That is. That is a really good analogy, actually. Can't put the pieces together.

[Tim Whitaker]

April, you're like my super chat accountability partner.

[April Ajoy]

Well, really, it's Cassidy. If I miss it, Cassidy, Another one came in.

[Tim Whitaker]

Thanks.

[April Ajoy]

Cassidy's our behind the scenes producer.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly. Thank you. She really keeps our head on straight while we're like multitasking. So. So Dinesh d' Souza came out back, the President and another person came out. Jump scare. That's a really intense picture. Eric Metaxas. Now, again, there's so much context to give. Eric Metaxas, his. His rise to fame was that he wrote a biography on Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Turned out that the biography was so bad it was torn to shreds by like, actual Bonoffer scholars. And from there, Eric kind of descended down the far right maga hole, became a really, like, hardcore Trump supporter. I've seen Eric before at Turning Point, USA America Fest. This guy has said and done things that is just. It's really wild. But I gotta say, hearing Eric try and defend Trump over the Epstein file situation is fascinating. So I'm just gonna play this little clip so you can hear. This is in the context of him talking about Trump and Epstein and why we shouldn't really worry about it. Here's his reasoning for why we should just trust the President. This is true. This is not. AI to be clear, this is a great administration. This is an administration so great we don't deserve it. And this is God's mercy to America to give us these heroes. From Cash Patel, Dan Bongino, Pete Hegseth, down the line, hero after hero after hero. The idea that people would snipe in this way, I mean, we have every right to expect justice and truth and whatever, but people are saying, well, we haven't had arrests, therefore they're dragging their feet. I mean, I get that. I get that, but. But at some point, you have to really trust that Donald Trump does care about what we care about. I'll tell you right now, folks, if you think Donald Trump would not do everything he possibly could to crush pedophile sex trafficking, I think you're crazy. It's a cult. It's a cult.

[April Ajoy]

And why. What is with the green screen?

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, it's weird. I know. It's like. It's like a bad zoom.

[April Ajoy]

Green screen. How messy is his office?

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't know. I don't know. I'm just saying, though, like, you know, people always say it's a cult. No, I mean, it is cult, like, and Trump is their cult leader. Who defines reality for these people? Eric Metaxas really said that. We don't deserve this administration. They're heroes. If you think that Trump would not be trying to crush pedophile rings again, like, we have him on a hot mic. The man's been. The man cheated on his. On his wife with an adult film star while she was pregnant. His. This man has said he would date his daughter if she wasn't his daughter. And Eric's like, guys, Trump would do the right thing when it came to sexual perversion. I mean, clearly. Really, Eric? Really?

[April Ajoy]

They're so blind. They're. They are blind when it comes to Trump. Yeah. Either that or they're just being intentionally misleading. I can't tell which one it is, depending on who you have.

[Tim Whitaker]

I mean, this is. If this was a movie being written, we would just call this a cheap plot line.

[April Ajoy]

Like, we would just call Stranger Than Fiction.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right. It's just a. Like, wait, so you're going to have Jeffrey Epstein's neighbor next to the President, laughing as President Trump talks about this being a hoax? That's horrible writing. That would never happen in real life. No, it's happening. It's happening way.

[April Ajoy]

Do you want to watch a more enjoyable clip of Bill O'Reilly? Yeah, we could do that about this.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

A little bit of a cleanser.

[Tim Whitaker]

We need so many. We should get some B roll of just kittens and soft music and play it every, like, half hour just to kind of cleanse our minds because, Jeez Louise. I mean, the stuff we gotta. The stuff we do for you out there, audience, the. The clips we pull, the prep we do. I'm just kidding. Yeah, let's watch this clip of O'Reilly, then we'll get to our weird Christian shit soon, which will be a lot of fun. So. Oh, here we go. How is he convicted? How do you convict a guy who's dead? He was convicted into, I believe. Okay. Under Merrick Garland's Justice Department. That could be. Am I wrong on that? I don't think so. And then he was incarcerated, and then he committed suicide. Okay. The suicide thing is bull with you. I think this is important, Bill. I think this is Important. He was arrested in 2019 and he committed suicide in 2019. He died August 10th of 2019. So the Biden administration was not involved in a conviction or a trial of him. They were in the. Of his madam, of Elaine Manchuriel. And that's a good point of clarification. But he was arrested and indicted under Merrick Garland. No, under Trump. You had all of the information. Epstein was arrested, indicted, and committed suicide under Trump in 2019. Trump was president. Merrick Garland was not the attorney general. Deer in the headlights. Okay. I mean, all right, let's go back to being a conspiracy theorist. If Epstein had this list and had people like Trump and other names allegedly on it, right? And he didn't kill himself, it would make sense why Trump is now covering it up here, right? Because that was under the Trump administration. So maybe Trump back then knew. Oh, my God. My, my, my boy Epstein again. Trump and Epstein have been friends for a long time. They're on camera together looking at women and dehumanizing them, right? Like this is no secret that they were, that they were bff. And so maybe Trump was like, yo, I'm on that list. Or they got some other damning evidence to me, we gotta so make it look like, make it look like a, you know, suicide situation.

[April Ajoy]

There just happens to be a minute of the tape missing, right.

[Tim Whitaker]

And maybe speculating. But maybe Trump knew that if he let his base run wild on Epstein, maybe he thought, well, they'll eventually let it go. We'll kind of just hush, hush. But because it's been brought up again and it was a major point of the reelection campaign and the people that he brought into the administration really believe it. And maybe they dug up stuff and Trump's like, oh, shoot, like they found the list. Okay, we got a. Can it. You have to tell them that there is no list. I mean, that is a plausible scenario based on the actions that we're seeing from Trump.

[April Ajoy]

Well, let's not forget when they asked Trump what his thoughts on Maxwell when she was convicted, he said, I wish her well.

[Tim Whitaker]

April, is the White House live right now? Someone just said that. White House is live. Making a statement about this. I'm looking.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, I don't know.

[Tim Whitaker]

Let's take a look. Okay, there's a press briefing on this. Let's take a look.

[April Ajoy]

Is it Caroline?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, there's no one here yet, though. It's. We're still real early. Okay, so we have, We. We're not going to be on probably for when all this happens. So we'll just we'll keep an eye on this as things come up. Yeah. But nothing yet. So we'll see what happens here maybe for next week.

[April Ajoy]

Oh gosh. Too many things. Also Babylon B is also making fun of this and point out to the Republicans. So Democrats released a measure now two different times to have the government release Epstein files. This was just this past week week. And all Republicans voted to block the release of the Epstein files.

[Tim Whitaker]

Wild. Wild.

[April Ajoy]

But Mike Johnson has separately, even though it was voted in the House to block it, has said that we should release the files. There's quite a few Republicans actually that are, I would say very gently pushing back on Trump. Like a lot of the comments I saw on Trump's Truth social were being like, like, all due respect, Mr. President, I love everything that you're doing, but we would really like some transparency. Like they're being so gentle about it. Like we do love you though. But there are some Republicans that are, that are really turning on Trump.

[Tim Whitaker]

It does seem for sure, for sure. 100%. The Babylon be put out. Even their own satire on this man who vowed to release Epstein files berates idiots for believing there are Epstein files else. That is funny. That is funny.

[April Ajoy]

They did it. They made it funny.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, it's been a while. Good job, Babylon. Yeah, really. I mean, Jesus. All right, well look, we'll keep you guys all updated on, on what's going on as things, as things get. As they unfold, essentially. You know, we'll see what, what they do. Apparently there was a. Apparently there was a press briefing scheduled for 1 o', clock, but it is now 1:30 and there's still nothing. So. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see.

[April Ajoy]

All right.

[Tim Whitaker]

All right.

[April Ajoy]

Is it time for.

[Tim Whitaker]

I, I, I. We need a palate. Well, if we can even call this one a palate cleanser. But yeah, yeah, let's do it. Let's. Let's get to some good stuff. You ready?

[April Ajoy]

Christian, do you hear the weird on your end or is it just eared? The W cuts off on my end.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'll check that. I, I heard weird. I heard the whole thing.

[April Ajoy]

Oh, well, that's good. Maybe it's just me. It's. Maybe it's just me. So this is a sermon clip that was going around and sugar warning homophobia.

[Tim Whitaker]

Just FYI. But huh, this is real. Here you go. Yep. Let's stand together tonight. I know you teenagers are tired. You ran around and kicked the ball. How many played soccer today? Did you play soccer today? Was that part of the, Part of The thing. I like soccer.

[April Ajoy]

No, thank God.

[Tim Whitaker]

Soccer's for queers. I mean, I'm gonna tell you that right now. I ain't nobody. Ain't no man running around in shorts kicking a ball. I mean, come on, now. Look at me. People look at me. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Football, that's like, somewhere, another country. Football, that's when you hit somebody so stinking hard, the mama feels it. See, in soccer. Soccer, you run around, you kick the ball. Kick the ball, Kick the ball. Let's kick the ball.

[April Ajoy]

Let's go.

[Tim Whitaker]

Kick the ball.

[April Ajoy]

And you can.

[Tim Whitaker]

And then if you fall down, you get grass stains on your shorts. No, that's not even a sport. I'm sorry. I know that I get myself in trouble everywhere I go, but. No, no. Football. Hike, you know, tackle, blow somebody out of their shoes. Football, not, you know, soccer, when you kick them on me, a soccer.

[April Ajoy]

And we kick them up.

[Tim Whitaker]

Okay, but I know you're tired young people. You wore out from running around the sun, and, you know, you're 15 and your energy's gone. That always cracks me up, you know that? I just think that's fantastic. But anyhow, so we're going to take a few minutes tonight and cover a subject that is very important to your.

[April Ajoy]

Who. Who decides who could be pastor? Like, we have the worst people that we've given platforms to.

[Tim Whitaker]

At the risk of sounding dehumanizing, I don't know how someone could be so stupid. I. I mean that. Like, I don't know how you can.

[April Ajoy]

Soccer is a tough. A tough sport.

[Tim Whitaker]

Tough sport. I. I would love to see this man. This guy. There you go. See that, April? I would love to see this man with this figure play soccer for maybe 10 minutes. Would love to watch it. I would love to watch it. What is he talking about?

[April Ajoy]

Does he think football players don't get grass stains?

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[April Ajoy]

Or baseball players?

[Tim Whitaker]

You think that soccer is for gay people? Well, I mean, some people might be gay playing soccer, but. But, I mean, who. Okay, what. Why? Like, because you think it's. It's, like, dainty and, like, not a hard sport. Oh, God. You know, the American, like, bubble is so real sometimes, right? You just hear Americans say things that you're. Like, how?

[April Ajoy]

I don't even understand.

[Tim Whitaker]

Watch. Like, what. What thought process would get you there to believe that?

[April Ajoy]

How would soccer be for gay people? But football, not. I mean football. You have men laying on top of each other.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah. Ever seen a dog pile? And spandex? I mean, and how about every bunch of quarterbacks say hike every. See where his hands are. Just. Just. Next time the football comes back, just watch where the quarterback's hands are in relation to the person who hikes the ball. Whatever that role is.

[April Ajoy]

Like, what is even the point of this rant? It's another sport, and it's not any more or less manly than other sports.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, no, no, no. Only men, you know. Yeah. Knock. Yeah, knocks. Knock someone out. So stupid. Yeah. And thank you. And someone said in so many butts. Exactly. I mean, these are men in tight spandex running around, trying to tackle people by the waist, you know, jumping on top of them hands. Yeah. The center. Thank you. Thank you for that help. Yeah, the center is squatted over with a man behind him, and his hands are right there. But go on, go on, tell me, tell me. Yeah, that's.

[April Ajoy]

That's straight stuff right there.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's just alpha male, you know, stuff right there. That's what those alpha men do. Yeah, yeah. Then y' all go in the locker room and shower together. Yeah, that makes complete sense.

[April Ajoy]

You know, What a random, stupid thing to say. Also, I will say we didn't get to it today because, wow, what a show. We didn't even get to all the clips we pulled because there's so many. But our Monday episode, we do play the clip of Donald Trump at the World Cup. Speaking of soccer.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[April Ajoy]

Which is just so embarrassing as an American. Is embarrassing. So you tune in Monday and we'll. We'll show you that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Cool. Sounds good. Well, what a show, huh?

[April Ajoy]

More super chats, though, that we gotta get to.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'll read them. Here you go. Thankful silly. Bebo Squirrel or side Quest? Would you be interested in looking into the case of Robert Robertson on Texas Deletion Row? I'm just curious. Ken Paxton had a judge set another end date for October 16th. I don't know anything about any of those names. I'll have to look into this.

[April Ajoy]

I do know Ken. I think it is Ken Paxton, that recently he's getting divorced from his wife, and a lot of people, like conservatives, were demonizing her, forcing him.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, I did see that.

[April Ajoy]

Okay, if that's the same Ken Paxton, it probably is.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm imagining. And then Stephanie, thank you for the super chat. Racism and homophobia. Playing the greatest hits. Yep, that's what we do here. Play the greatest hits. Oh, we didn't play the other clip either.

[April Ajoy]

One other clip.

[Tim Whitaker]

The guy on Fox News about. I know.

[April Ajoy]

I guess next week we have.

[Tim Whitaker]

Unless you want to know, it's too much we will. We will. Got. You know, that's the cliffhanger. We'll be back here live next week at 12 o' clock Eastern. Make sure you subscribe to the channel. We will play a clip that is. I don't know what to say. It's. It's one of the worst things I've ever heard in the four years I've been doing this. I mean, it's just so clear. But, yeah, we can't do it now.

[April Ajoy]

Remember to do it next week. We cannot forget no matter what crazy stuff happens in the next.

[Tim Whitaker]

No matter what. No matter what. Well, that was fun. Kind of. April, we got through it.

[April Ajoy]

Fun is a word.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

For it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[April Ajoy]

You know, we, we have as much fun as we can and with these terribly stupid stories, but also a lot of. There's victims. Like the. I think the biggest tragedy on the whole Epstein thing, too, is that, that, you know, we're talking about Trump and all the reaction to it, but we're forgetting about the very real victim.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, thank you. Great. Yeah, absolutely.

[April Ajoy]

Of the trafficking. Like, it's really terrible, terrible stuff.

[Tim Whitaker]

Underage people who were. Have their lives forever altered by the heinous actions of Epstein and his partner and whoever else was on that client list that Trump is now covering up. So.

[April Ajoy]

Yeah. And they need justice.

[Tim Whitaker]

So 100.

[April Ajoy]

But thank you all for joining us today on the April show. We will have another episode coming Monday and then we'll be live again next Thursday as we are every Thursday at. What is it, 12pm Eastern. Also Wednesday of next week, July 23rd. So much is going shiny happy people season two releases. And you might recognize me in it. I don't know how much I'm in it, but I should be in it because I'm in the trailer. So I'm assuming I'm in it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Cool. Sounds good.

[April Ajoy]

Cool. We're tired.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm tired. I'm Tim Whitaker.

[April Ajoy]

I am April Ajoy. Until next time. Have a great week.

[Tim Whitaker]

Sat.