← The Tim & April Show
The Tim & April Show
37. Teen Mania and Christian Nationalism: Inside Shiny Happy People Season 2
01:11:35
Loading summary
Transcript335 lines
- [00:01]
April
This episode is brought to you by JCPenney. And if you've been to JCPenney recently.
- [00:05]
Tim
Yes, JCPenney, you'll know it's becoming the.
- [00:09]
April
Way to find good clothes for prices that still make sense. They've got hidden gems for everyone and every budget, with deals and rewards that.
- [00:16]
Tim
Actually make a dent.
- [00:18]
April
If you already shop JCPenney, you feel like you know a secret. But if not, it's time to ask. Wait, am I sleeping on JCPenney? Shopjcpenney.com Yes, JCPenney hey, it's Ryan Reynolds.
- [00:30]
Tim
Here from Mint Mobile.
- [00:31]
Danny Rocca
Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made fifteen dollar bills, but.
- [00:43]
Tim
It turns out that's very illegal.
- [00:46]
Danny Rocca
So there goes my big idea for the commercial.
- [00:48]
Tim
Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for a three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new.
- [00:55]
April
Customer offer for first three months only.
- [00:56]
Tim
Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of taxes and fees extra.
- [00:58]
Danny Rocca
Cementmobile.com Amazon One Medical presents Painful Thoughts.
- [01:04]
April
I've been on hold to make a.
- [01:05]
Tim
Doctor'S appointment for 23 minutes now. The automated voice has told me 47 times that my call is very important to them.
- [01:14]
April
Hmm, I'm starting to think that they.
- [01:16]
Tim
Don'T think my call is important at all.
- [01:19]
Danny Rocca
With Amazon One Medical 24. 7 Virtual Care, you'll get help fast without having to remain on the line.
- [01:25]
Tim
To make an appointment.
- [01:26]
Danny Rocca
Amazon won.
- [01:27]
Tim
Medical healthcare just got less painful.
- [01:31]
Danny Rocca
This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords, and a VPN, you try to be in.
- [01:38]
Tim
Control of how your info is protected, but many other places also have it and they might not be as careful.
- [01:44]
Danny Rocca
That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix.
- [01:51]
Tim
It, guaranteed, or your money back.
- [01:53]
Danny Rocca
Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off.
- [01:58]
Tim
Terms apply.
- [02:00]
April
Tipping Culture is out of control. Yesterday I tipped someone just for handing me a napkin. So when hotels.com gives me up to 20% off for being a member, I finally get tipped. And you know what? It feels good. Hotels.com members save up to 20% off at hundreds of thousands of hotels. You're listening to a new Evangelicals production, the Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture. Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Tim and April Show. I'm April.
- [02:37]
Danny Rocca
And I'm Tim. Good job. We nailed it.
- [02:41]
April
We did nail it. That was such a great intro. If I can just pat myself on the back.
- [02:45]
Danny Rocca
You absolutely should. You deserve it.
- [02:48]
April
Yeah. So Tim has a heart out in, like, less than an hour. So I just think we dive right into this episode if you haven't yet. Shiny Happy People. Season two is now out on Amazon prime and it focuses on Teen Mania and Ron Loose and Honor Academy and Acquire the Fire and all the youth group things. That was definitely part of my upbringing. And so today we have a special guest, Danny Rocca. She is the first person that I met when I went down to interview. I met Danny in line to check into the hotel and I recognized her from TikTok. And we both kind of looked at each other like, hi. Hi. Like, are you here for what I'm here for? And because we Both had signed NDAs, right.
- [03:37]
Danny Rocca
It's like when you first meet another progressive Christian, you say certain things that kind of feel out, you know, like, where they stand on certain issues. You're like, oh, okay, we can keep talking about this, you know.
- [03:46]
April
Yeah. Welcome, Danny.
- [03:48]
Tim
Hello. Welcome to me, I guess. Welcome to you.
- [03:52]
Danny Rocca
Thank you, Danny.
- [03:53]
Tim
It's.
- [03:53]
Danny Rocca
Thank you for welcoming us.
- [03:55]
Tim
It's so good to be welcome.
- [03:57]
Danny Rocca
It is good to meet you. I gotta say, I feel like I'm the odd man out. Like, I'm in the presence of, you know, people who have, like, been on real TV shows. Meanwhile, I just try and do podcasts on YouTube, so. But it was really cool seeing both of you on that. That docu series. I gotta put my cards out on the table. Even though I grew up deeply embedded in white evangelicalism, I really missed out on the Acquire the Fire world. I don't know what happened in my tradition, but I just missed the whole thing. Never heard of what's his name? Ron. What's his last name?
- [04:29]
April
Ron Loose.
- [04:29]
Danny Rocca
Yeah. Never heard of that dude until I started watching this thing.
- [04:32]
Tim
Interesting.
- [04:34]
April
He was a household name in my family.
- [04:37]
Danny Rocca
Yeah, I was reading John MacArthur, I guess. I don't know. It was a weird time.
- [04:42]
April
So, yeah, John MacArthur was not my fan. Wasn't. I wasn't a fan of his ever. So, Danny, this is the first interview you've done, I believe, since watching the show, right?
- [04:54]
Tim
Yes.
- [04:55]
April
So I would love to get your maybe spoiler Ish. Free for those who haven't seen it, but just kind of. How did it feel to watch?
- [05:04]
Tim
Felt surreal to watch it. I feel like it's been about, I mean, for me, about 20 years in the making, but also for us, two years, we're just waiting, wondering, trying to figure out what's the narrative gonna be, what are they gonna cover? And of course, like, what did they use of mine? What did they use of yours? And like, you know, what's the storyline? And so I was waiting patiently and I got up at 3am wow. Because it was, it aired at 3am Because I did not want anybody else to watch it first. I was like, I have to see this so that when I wake up, if anybody's saying anything, I'm not confused.
- [05:40]
Danny Rocca
Yes, yes, that makes sense.
- [05:43]
Tim
So, and so my whole family got up and watched it with me. It was very sweet, but my 10 year old asked me like a thousand questions every 10 seconds, so it was hard to focus. So I'm going to have to watch it again because I felt like I kept on having to explain very basic things to him, which I'm really thankful he didn't know what most of those things were. So doing something right. My initial response was, you know, bated breath, like I was just like, okay, what's, where's this going? What's happening? I had goosebumps and chills during certain things. All these memories and flashbacks kept coming back. I had some visceral reactions to certain things that I was like, okay, I got to figure out where that's coming from and why. I feel like the heebie jeebies and tears, you know, hearing everybody's full story for the first time, especially the very last episode, like I cried a bunch towards the end. It was just like, oof. I cannot believe that I did this and didn't see it the way I see it now. I feel like we normalized so much and still we still, I think we still normalize some of the things that we went through. So watching that and watching my kids reaction and certain people's reactions, it's like, oh, maybe I should unpack a little bit more than I thought I was doing fine.
- [07:07]
Danny Rocca
So I'm curious, you know, just a surface level, because I'm sure the docu series goes more into this, but how deeply embedded were you with Team Mania and like that world? Like, were you one of the interns or like how, how deeply invested were you in that space?
- [07:22]
Tim
I was pretty invested. I started out as an attendee when I was like 10, 11, 12, 13, as a, you know, attendee with my youth group. And when I was 18, I went and joined their internship, which is called the Honor Academy, which, for people that don't know, Teen Mania is just like the umbrella blanket term for the entire ministry. There's like recruitment arms, I'll call them, which was Acquire the Fire, which is the big youth conference. And then the Missions, Global Expeditions, where people go on missions trips every summer. They would kind of filter into the Honor Academy as people turned 18. And I call it like the gap year. It was designed as a gap year between high school and college to get you grounded in your faith and, you know, strengthen you for the temptations of the world. And so you know how it is, because you're going to go get indoctrinated when you go to college.
- [08:19]
Danny Rocca
That's right. That's right.
- [08:20]
Tim
You have to fight against it. Fight against the powers of the world. So that's what it was designed as. And so I was an intern for the first year, the 12 month program, and then my second year that I was there, we called those graduate interns GIs, if we're using the vernacular appropriately. Yes, we were GIs. And that was the year that I traveled around with Acquire the Fire as I was in. I mean, I traveled around with 36 people in a bus. And we put on the conferences. So we were doing the lights, the audio, we were doing skits, we were doing the music. We were doing everything that you can think of that it takes to put on a conference. I was in charge of the Friend of house lighting rig, and I was the main character in the drama, and I was feeling pretty cool.
- [09:13]
April
And how old were you at this time?
- [09:16]
Tim
18, 19.
- [09:17]
April
Yeah, I think. And I think it's important for people to know that if they haven't watched the documentary, that if you went through the Honor Academy, you were basically providing not even free labor because you were paying Teen Mania to then work for them and provide, like, all the labor.
- [09:37]
Tim
Yes, we were. We were paying to be there.
- [09:39]
Danny Rocca
So you would have to, like, raise your support, essentially, to go do the work.
- [09:43]
Tim
Yes, we did. And they gave us in our little handbook, they gave us a lot of fundraising ideas, you know, so we did some of those. But it was mostly the letters, you know, that you'd send out back in the day of like, hello, it's me, Danny Rocca. I'm gonna go and change the world. Please give me money.
- [10:01]
April
It was wild to me that one of the ideas was involved a carton of eggs and going door to door. And then you would say, I will crack an egg over my head for any donation amount. Yeah, that was an idea thing that they recommended. To do?
- [10:19]
Tim
Yeah, bake sales. Like, you can do anything that you want to do to raise money, basically. But I remember doing that in high school, actually, when I was trying to raise money for my missions trips. It wasn't door to door as much as we were out in the church parking lot and being like, does anybody want to crack an egg over my head for a donation?
- [10:38]
Danny Rocca
Yeah, that. That part I can resonate with because I. I used to work for Child Evangelism Fellowship and we had to raise our own support to become summer missionaries to our. These, like, backyard five day clubs that we would do. So I have to raise my money and I, I would get like slightly paid out of that, but I still had to raise all the money, so I had to do the letters. I had to do whatever I could do to raise X amount of money so I could, you know, teach boys and girls about the gospel of Jesus so they wouldn't go to hell forever. Good times.
- [11:08]
Tim
And I just actually, I pulled it up in the cause. I have the HA handbook in front of me, the teammate handbook, and the page that has fundraising ideas. They have about 30. 30 ideas? Yeah, 30 ideas. Which. I'll read them. I won't read all of them, but Rent a team. You know, you can rent a member of your youth group to clean and complete jobs for a donation. Car washes. You can do a car wash, which is obviously the best one. Church dinners, breakfast socials, egg cracking is popular. It says task trading tickets, Colossal cleanup. So it's a lot of cleanup. One of them, my 8 is actually a really good one. It's get a job.
- [11:54]
April
Oh.
- [11:58]
Danny Rocca
Wow, that's. That's a good idea.
- [12:02]
Tim
Yeah, that one's probably. I mean, we don't even need to figure out, you know, we don't have to read any more of these. Face painting parents, doggy dip. I don't even know what that means.
- [12:12]
Danny Rocca
And so you did this. You raised the money so you can go do this?
- [12:15]
Tim
Yes, but I got a job. That's what.
- [12:17]
Danny Rocca
I got a job. So you. Number eight is the format kind of like. I mean, my only frame of reference for, for this model is almost like a, like a master's commission or almost like a hillsong college vibe, or like you paid them money for all these quote unquote experiences, but really they're just extracting essentially free labor out of you in the name of, like, hands on experience. Is that, Is that the vibe here?
- [12:38]
Tim
Yeah, I would. I mean, yes, I think so. I would say so. I'm not super familiar with Masters Commission. And I know Hillsong is very similar because I think that we tried to do a Hillsong model after my year. The main school worship.
- [12:55]
April
Yeah, the main difference, I feel Teen Mania stands apart because of the military, like, boot camp that they made you all do.
- [13:06]
Danny Rocca
That's pretty wild, right? It's pretty wild.
- [13:09]
Tim
That stuff is interesting because, like, I, I think I've been reading a lot of the Facebook comments because I'm, I'm behind the curtain in the Facebook groups of all the alumni. And so there seems to be a. A common thread and a common theme that I think is, you know, relatively valid in one sense, in that the military thing happened one weekend out of the 12 months, and so therefore, it shouldn't be, like, as, like, focused on as we make it. Which, I mean, you can say that as far as, like, extremism goes, but, like, if, if your dad beat you one weekend a year, you wouldn't be like, he's just such a great person, and my whole life is great, so I'll be fine, or whatever.
- [13:57]
Danny Rocca
I'm curious for you, Danny, like, like, what drew you into, you know, getting involved in the beginning, right, Because I, I, I watched a bit of the document docu series so far, and, and I think one common theme that I hear a lot, and it's also my experience is that these spaces on the surface, tend to offer a sense of, like, greater purpose, bigger than yourself, community, you know, doing things with other people. That feels exciting and just kind of, kind of like this grand adventure. I'm curious for you, was that kind of the draw of, like, man, I'm this Christian, I want to do big things for the kingdom, and, and I can do it through Teen Mania. Was that the draw for you?
- [14:31]
Tim
I think so. When I look back, I think when I was leaving high school, all of my friends were dispersing, and I think there was, like, a little bit of drama within my friend group, and I felt very kind of, like, isolated and so kind of ready for a fresh start and a new community of people and everybody else was doing their ministry things, and so I needed to go out on my own and do my thing. And so, yeah, that was my choice.
- [14:57]
April
I have so many things that I want to talk to you about, but I think it's important for a lot of people that maybe didn't grow up religious or even people that are still evangelical in some way today that might look at what's being. What was being taught at Teen Mania, and probably what Ron Lu still teaches, too, as it's you know, it's not that big of a deal, you know, and it was taken to the extreme and that most places are not like that. But I think it's important to note how it didn't just stay at the Honor Academy. Like, I was taught that I would probably be a martyr for God and that there was no greater calling, too. And that was just by going to youth group, you know, like, it was. It was a very widespread thing.
- [15:42]
Danny Rocca
Got it right here, baby. Voice of the martyrs. It's still got it.
- [15:46]
April
Like, and I think teen mania, I think, kind of helped shape youth group culture as a whole, where you didn't have to go through the Honor Academy. I mean, that is a very specific sort of trauma for a lot of people. But the rhetoric and like, the military language and the spiritual warfare language, that leads to radical faith, that, that leads to, like, this radicalized kind of Christian nationalism that we're seeing. Because if you actually believe that everybody who doesn't believe in Jesus the way you do is going to go to hell, right then there's nothing that isn't worth doing. Like, there's. That you could justify just about anything to get to that point, including, you know, abusing and terrorizing teenagers in a boot camp. If you genuinely believe that you're raising, like, this army of Christians that are going to change the world for God, would. Would you agree? What do you think?
- [16:45]
Tim
Yeah, I would say if you believe that hell is the ultimate punishment, then any abuse or punishment along the way is than hell. So you can justify as much harm as long as the ends justify the means, if that makes sense.
- [16:59]
Danny Rocca
Yeah, yeah.
- [17:00]
Tim
And. And I think, like, when you're truly bought into that, there is like a. An urgency that comes with wanting to save everyone. I mean, you guys know this, right? Like, there's an urgency and there's like a grief when you can't.
- [17:16]
Danny Rocca
Yeah, yeah.
- [17:18]
April
And if you, like, if you don't witness or you feel like you messed up and might have hurt somebody's faith, or if you were a bad witness, then you feel the shame of their blood being on your hands. Like, I was taught that I didn't go through the Honor Academy, but I was taught that if I didn't witness to somebody and then they died and went to hell, that their blood would be on my hands forever.
- [17:40]
Tim
Yeah, absolutely.
- [17:42]
Danny Rocca
Yeah. I mean, and also, I don't know, you know, the thing about. In April, you and I talk about this a lot. Just in the broader evangelical world that we all, all three of us grew up in, in different ways. But like, I understand, right. The idea of like feeling like you're doing something bigger than yourself, like for a greater cause and like having friends along the way. I mean, some of my closest friends still came out of evangelicalism that I, I talked to today. There was something that just kind of happens. So like, like a lot of the elements on the surface of like community and like even, even doing things in the name of like God can be healthy. But what's so interesting is how quick, quick in these spaces and in this case, you know, with like organizations like T Mania, how quick that turns into radicalization, that becomes hyper politicized in a very like conservative evangelical way to fight the culture war. Right. Like, I mean I, I would march for life wearing my, wearing my, my, you know, my signs and my shirt, not really being aware of like what was really going on, but just being taught, if we don't stop this, it's like a modern day holocaust. Like a very bombastic language was used to describe it. Right. And so my brain at age 18 was like ready to go because it was so primed for like radicalization of like, I'm a young man, I want to take back the, you know, take back America for God. And I think like, like the Team Manias of the world, especially in this docu series, kind of shows the link of what starts kind of almost innocently, you know, get fired up for God and like sing these songs. And this is so much fun. Then transitions to fight the culture war. And it's just interesting to watch that that radicalization kind of happens.
- [19:08]
Tim
Yeah. And I think that sometimes people don't realize it's happening too because it's so dependent on how you grew up. Like in the case of Teen Mania, there were some people who felt like being on campus at the Honor Academy was freedom for them because they grew up in such an oppressive space that it felt like they're moving the needle forward and not backward. Whereas some people came from a very free environment and had to assimilate and come back into, you know, fall in line with the rules and the social norms of being a part of that culture. What did I say yesterday? It was, I think all it takes is 10 degree day to make 20 degrees feel warm. So you start to kind of like adjust your, your, your, your mind, you adjust your expectations, you adjust kind of every part of yourself to fit into a group. Because to belong is, is such a, an important part of the human existence.
- [20:06]
Danny Rocca
Right.
- [20:06]
Tim
And we want that so badly that we're willing to sacrifice our own values for it, even if we don't believe those things. So.
- [20:14]
April
And I think, too, because you're so young, you're talking about teenagers who are very easily impressionable, easily manipulated, and spiritually manipulated. And when you're talking about authority, authority, authority, and pushing obedience as authority to God, even though you're actually being obedient to Ron or Dave, who helped run the boot camps. I wanted to ask you. I saw some comments about people who feel like the Shiny Happy People documentary is kind of like a form of Christian persecution in a way, because it's not showing all the positive experiences. And I saw a comment on someone's thread, and it might have been yours. And it was someone who basically was like, you know, I was a little bit rebellious, so it's going to become a surprise to some people that I'm defending teen mania. But, you know, it really wasn't that bad, and you could have left at any time. And. And, you know, everyone was there on their free will, and a lot of us had positive experiences. And then I saw someone else reply to them, which I thought was really kind of opened it up for me. That made sense. They said, well, I feel like the kids who might have been a little more rebellious might have skipped through some of the more traumatic things because they were able to hold on to some autonomy there because they were rebellious against the rules, versus the kids who were there who were genuinely following every single rule, who felt so much shame for if they were breaking a rule, that the trauma was more heavily on the really, really good rule followers than the rebels. And that made so much sense to me.
- [21:48]
Tim
Yeah, yeah, that. That makes sense to me too. I think I also said, like, if you were able to gamify it, like, make it kind of fun, if you had that ability. Because, like, everyone responds to trauma differently. Right? That's kind of what resilience is. You build resilience over time. Someone can experience the exact same thing and come out completely unscathed or completely traumatized, depending on how, you know, you're wired. And so to discount that is, you know, unfortunate because a lot of people are discounting that people were harmed. And forgive me if this analogy is ridiculous because my ADHD brain is like, huh, this is an interesting thought. I'm thinking about, like, the. The game of operation and how there's all these, like, divots, you know, in the dude.
- [22:37]
April
Divots in the dude, you know, the.
- [22:39]
Tim
Divots in the dude.
- [22:41]
April
Different shapes.
- [22:42]
Tim
Yeah, they got some bones and some, you Know, random, obscure items. I feel like if you're able to extract that item without touching the. The edges, then, you know, you're. You're moving forward and you're about. You're going to heal the disease, I guess. And. But if you touch the sides or you leave it, something in or whatever, like, some people are stuck in it, some people were taken out of it and just fine, and some people are still trying.
- [23:06]
Danny Rocca
Right.
- [23:07]
Tim
And so that. I don't know if that made any sense, but that's what I was. That's the picture that I got in my mind.
- [23:12]
April
Yeah. Well, and I think the scary part, too, is that a lot of you all, and like, in us, too, like, we're able to leave that belief system and heal from a lot of trauma and view the world a lot differently now because of that. But a lot of people that we grew up with and that you went to Honor Academy with and that were in youth group with me are still, like, true believers in it all. Like, have not been able to leave that indoctrination behind.
- [23:39]
Tim
Right. Because to pull a thread is to destroy the sweater, as Weezer said. And so Weezer, Chapter four, if you will.
- [23:48]
Danny Rocca
Chapter four, Chapter four, verse two.
- [23:51]
Tim
Verse two. I just nonchalantly was like, you know how Weezer is talking about that sweater.
- [23:58]
Danny Rocca
Message translation, of course, obviously, you know.
- [24:02]
Tim
But yeah, no, for real, though, like, it is hard to feel, and when you don't want to feel and you. And you put those walls up to protect yourself and you feel like the comfort of community and you feel like you belong somewhere, to exit that is painful because it is to lose everything. And I think if you aren't ready to do that, then no amount of documentaries or telling someone like, the harms of the things you went through are going to change that in a person that is not ready. And yeah, I think that's just the harsh reality. And it's difficult because when you live in a bubble that you like, you don't want to leave.
- [24:48]
Danny Rocca
Yeah.
- [24:48]
April
You really don't.
- [24:49]
Danny Rocca
Yeah.
- [24:55]
Tim
Living with schizophrenia isn't easy, especially when you're not getting relief from some of your symptoms. It can be hard when you're still dealing with symptoms like hearing voices or seeing things that aren't there and negative symptoms like feeling unmotivated or avoiding social situations. If this sounds familiar, it might be time to talk to your healthcare provider and explore a different kind of schizophrenia treatment. Discover your possibilities@treatingscz.com at Capella University. Learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu. class is now in session and the UPS store is here to help you ace arriving on campus. Our certified the Best Buy packing experts can pack everything you need, from desktops to decor. Plus, when you pack and ship with us, you get our exclusive pack and ship guarantee. Your items arrive safe or your money back. Restrictions and limitations apply. To get a 20% off packing coupon and for full details, visit theupsstore.com packing@blinds.com.
- [26:26]
Danny Rocca
It'S not just about window treatments. It's about you.
- [26:29]
Tim
Your style, your space, your way.
- [26:31]
Danny Rocca
Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is.
- [26:42]
Tim
Made to fit your life and your windows. Because@blinds.com, the only thing we treat better than Windows is you.
- [26:47]
Danny Rocca
Visit blinds.com now for up to 45% off site wide plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply.
- [26:55]
D
Hi, my name is Emily. I'm from Cocoa, Florida and I decided to donate and follow the NuVee evangelical page because I believe in the work that they're doing. I think it's important to create a healthy environment where people are comfortable asking hard questions about, you know, their existence and their religion. And I'm spiritual but not religious. But I do believe there's like a fundamental truth. There is a fundamental reality where we all come from, where the universe comes from. Totally agree that there's something going on, you know what I mean? But beyond that, I don't know. I don't have the answers. And to me that's given me a lot of freedom to kind of explore my humanity how I want, instead of being bogged down by the fear tactics of Christianity and them telling me that I'm wrong for simply having human experiences and human feelings and wanting to explore those. So yeah, we keep talking about it. If people are getting upset about it, that means we got to keep talking about it. Let's bridge the divide, communicate. Let's try to reduce our misunderstandings of each other and just all come together to realize we're all human. We're all here on this earth together. And instead of fighting about which religion is right, maybe we could come together to make the world we live on a better place. Why can't we make heaven on earth? Why are we all waiting to get off of earth?
- [28:25]
Danny Rocca
I'm curious, you know, were there, like, when was the. Not the moment necessarily, but when did you start maybe having thoughts around, like, I'm not sure if this is, you know, good or healthy long term, or, like, you know, was that later on after you exited Scene Mania? You know, like. Or, like, was it when you were still in there? Because a lot of us, you know, as we quote, unquote, deconstruct or renegotiate faith, we start kind of putting two and two together. But there are always these little paper cuts along the way that we go. I'm not sure I feel about that, but I can put it aside for the greater good. I'm kind of curious. I'm curious for you, your journey with that.
- [28:56]
Tim
Yeah, I had so many paper cuts because, like, you look at my story and it's kind of like, how on earth did you not just, like, crumble and, like, exit and, like, 15 years ago from being excommunicated for kissing a boy, which.
- [29:12]
Danny Rocca
Wait, what?
- [29:13]
Tim
Oh, right. Excommunicated for kissing a boy.
- [29:17]
Danny Rocca
Pause right there.
- [29:18]
April
Can we go into that?
- [29:21]
Danny Rocca
You were excommunicated for kissing a boy?
- [29:24]
Tim
I was excommunicated for kissing a boy because it was in the rule book that you're not allowed to have any romantic contact.
- [29:30]
April
Can I ask a question? Was the boy also in the honor academy?
- [29:33]
Tim
He was, but he left before.
- [29:36]
April
Oh, so they didn't excommunicate him?
- [29:38]
Tim
No, because he left. So we. We kissed in October.
- [29:42]
Danny Rocca
Okay.
- [29:43]
Tim
And then he left in, like, November and left the program completely, turned himself in. It wasn't for him. It wasn't for him. He left. Yeah. And. And then January came, Christmas break, and someone called and was like, hey, Danny Roca kissed a boy at the lake in October.
- [30:05]
April
How did this person know? Did they see it happen?
- [30:08]
Tim
I think they were one of his friends, and he had, like, confessed it to him or something. Because you have to confess all your sins to all your friends and accountability.
- [30:15]
Danny Rocca
Hashtag accountability.
- [30:18]
Tim
Accountability is important.
- [30:19]
Danny Rocca
I just picture this pro being like, dude, I have to talk to you about something super serious. Like, whoa, what's up, bro? I kissed someone four months ago, and I'm confessing it to you. And he called. The whoever was like, I got dirt. Oh, my gosh.
- [30:33]
April
Hold on. Was this just a Peck or was there some tongue action?
- [30:36]
Tim
Oh, no, we made out. We definitely made out.
- [30:39]
Danny Rocca
All right.
- [30:40]
April
So he was probably feeling really guilty about that, because that's basically having sex in your culture.
- [30:46]
Tim
We didn't even get to second base. But the car did die at the lake, like, because they had the radio on and the bat, like, the car off, radio on, battery dies. And so because the car died, side, we're like, what do we do? We can't call someone, right?
- [31:01]
April
Oh, it was like God judging you. Did you think it was God?
- [31:05]
Danny Rocca
Your sin will always find you out.
- [31:07]
Tim
I was just, like, kind of panicked of, like, who do I know that's also a sinner that I can call? Who else can I call that that, you know, won't turn me in, basically, who's not a narc? And so we slept in the car. Well, we did sleep in the car all night. But again, not. We did not go any farther than kissing. And so the next day, I had. I called one of my friends, and they showed up and jumped the car. And nobody knew.
- [31:34]
Danny Rocca
And then three months later, you were. Someone did narc you out. There was a narc, it turns out. And you got kicked out for that.
- [31:41]
Tim
I got kicked out. And you thought I murdered someone. It was really bad. Like, it made. It was just people legitimately were like, what did she do? What did she do that caused such a big. Because I don't think, like, I was the main character in the drama at Acquired the Fire. And this wasn't like a small skit. This was like the Bama. We did the Bama that year. Oh, yeah. And so it was like an hour or 45 minutes on a Friday night. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe we didn't do it on Friday night. But, like, it was like hour long segments of acts. So it wasn't just. I was a big deal. I was Amanda Bright, 18, very involved in youth group. Very involved. And you are the soul in the balance.
- [32:27]
Danny Rocca
Yes. Clearly the baby seat of Christ, you know, of course, obviously. So, okay, so they kicked you out because you made out with the boy.
- [32:37]
Tim
Yes.
- [32:38]
Danny Rocca
And did you ever go back? Yeah, like, we got back there.
- [32:41]
Tim
Yes, I did go back. I did a year later, though, and it was a very. Yeah, it was like, I showed up one summer, it was supposed to be a two week road trip, and then I ended up kind of writing music with the School of Worship over the summer. And then I was kind of just there. And then October rolled around. They're like, someone needs to tell Dani that she Needs to become an intern or she has to leave. So I was like, I already paid for my year, so I. I can stay here. I can do whatever I want.
- [33:10]
April
Do you have to pay for the whole year in advance or. You pay month to month?
- [33:14]
Tim
You're supposed to. I mean, you can pay a year in advance. You can pay for it in advance. You can pay for it month to month. But I had friends that. I mean, they would send you on fundraising trips if you didn't have the money that month. I have friends that were literally pulled out of line when we were lining up to graduate because they did not have all of their money in. And so they got financially dismissed before they would graduate.
- [33:38]
Danny Rocca
They didn't crack enough eggs on their heads, clearly.
- [33:41]
Tim
No, they didn't.
- [33:42]
Danny Rocca
Jeez.
- [33:43]
Tim
So that was, like, a really rough one, like, the financially dismissed one, because there's, like, so much dishonor in that. And the whole thing was, like, honor. And it just felt like a lot of. Like, that felt like it just psychological. I don't know.
- [33:59]
April
Almost like, classist, too.
- [34:01]
Tim
Yeah. Yeah. Because, like, they literally were dressed in their uniform and ready to walk, and they were like, I had a friend that was dismissed and then still had to run, like, the lights for the event.
- [34:14]
Danny Rocca
Oh, my gosh.
- [34:16]
Tim
Wow.
- [34:17]
Danny Rocca
Can I ask a clarifying question? So you were kicked out, but you were allowed to come back a year later? Was like. It was like. Was it like a different team mania, like, chapter or, like, how did that work?
- [34:28]
Tim
Great question. I don't remember how it works exactly, because I think everyone has their own stipulation, because you have to go in front of, like, an honor council of your peers, and they decide your fate, basically. They decide whether you're going to go on probation or whether you're going to get dismissed and kind of what the stipulations are. And so when I got dismissed, I was banned from campus, I think, for the year. Like, I wasn't allowed to be there until the current class that I was in graduated. And. And I think I was welcome to apply again and come back for the next cohort, if you will.
- [35:11]
April
Did anyone reach out to you while you were dismissed?
- [35:15]
Tim
The first week, everyone changed my name in their phone.
- [35:20]
Danny Rocca
For what? Don't say Jezebel. Do not say Jezebel. No, no, no.
- [35:23]
Tim
This is like. This is because they were told they weren't allowed to talk to me, so they changed my name in their phone so that they wouldn't get caught talking to me or checking in on me. And then the leadership Found out. And they actually, like, walked around and made them delete my number. Oh, my God. To talk to me. I know, I know. I'm like, yeah, that's one of those things that still messes with me to this day because I was looking at, like, the video and some of the. The materials that I sent in, and I'm just like, man, I wonder. We've never really talked about this, but these were, like, my best friends, and I have no idea how any of them are doing. Like, one of their. One of their birthdays is today. And I was like, oh, I should send them an email like I used to, because I used to do this really dumb thing where I'd send a jump scare of this wet cat. And I thought it was hilarious. I'm going to do that. And I was like, trying to find the wet cat. I'm like, what are you doing? What are you doing right now? But, yeah, it messes with you. It really does.
- [36:23]
Danny Rocca
Okay, so. So you. You got kicked out and came back in. I just wanted to hear the. Some of the paper cuts that kind of led you to the moment of, like, you know, when you eventually, I'm assuming, left Team Mania. And I'm not sure how that impacted your faith. I'm just kind of curious of that story.
- [36:36]
Tim
Yeah, I took. I think I internalized all of the culture of Teen Mania and I owned up to all my mistakes. Like, I made the choice. I was the one that did this. So they were right and justified in doing, like, I allowed that to happen. So I was just.
- [36:51]
April
And they, like, used you in testimonials, right? Like, I'm the woman who made a mistake. And the mistake, to be clear, was you kissed a boy.
- [36:59]
Tim
Right. And I was using most of the. Most of the promo materials because I was one of, like, nine brown people. So that was a different story.
- [37:06]
Danny Rocca
Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.
- [37:09]
Tim
Yeah. So just to give that context, like, I was, like, very much, like, humble, if you will, in accepting my wrongdoing. Scarlet letter. My scarlet letter that will forever scar me. And left, came back and was in it again. And for two years, I feel like I was definitely accepting a lot of, like, emotional abuse from some people and spiritual abuse from leadership. And after I got married, which was in 2011, I met my husband there and we got married. I had all the Teen Mania people at my wedding. I timed it to where they could come the day after graduation. And So I had 300 people at my wedding. All Team Mania people, Not all too many. And then three months later, I got pregnant, and then my whole life has just been mom. So I went straight from this high control group into a new place, a new church, a new life, having kids now still never gone to college at this point. And so I kind of never had autonomy. And so I think once the threads started pulling, when I started going to college and I went to college after I had two kids and after I had made some decisions, like, I was not understanding how I coped with stress. And so I was, like, drowning under kids and, like, dealing with all this stuff. And I was like, I need a life shift. Like, this is not good. Like, I'm not doing well. And so I started college, and that's when I was like, oh, I need something that's mine. Why have I, like, sacrificed my entire life for someone else all the time? Like, this is for me. And so being able to just like, breathe fresh life into myself and have, like, something that's mine kind of began that journey for me. But it took a really long time for me to even recognize, like, a lot of the harm. And I think, like, because we moved to Houston and all the teen mania people that didn't have a home kind of moved down to Houston after they left Teen Mania, we were like, this kind of hub of teen mania people. And so we mentor a lot of them, and it just felt like people could never get out of it. And kind of witnessing this, I was like, man, this is, like, this is rough that people are, like, so stuck still in this place. Like, every time you see a teen mania person, you're immediately talking about teen mania and all the things you went through and all the things that you done, even if it's been 20 years, it doesn't matter. Like, that's just something that you do.
- [39:54]
April
And so can I ask when you were going, when you were dismissed, and then you come back and then you're being told to talk about how you messed up, you know, but God forgave you and all these things. Like, did you feel shame for the kiss? Like, did you feel like it was a mistake? Or did, like, you kind of feel deep down like, this is kind of dramatic for what I did?
- [40:19]
Tim
That's a great question. I probably. I think I did feel shame. I feel like I've learned a lot about how to unravel shame now that I'm older and wiser and have done therapy and gotten all my degrees and all the things. But back then, yeah, I definitely felt shame, and I felt the need to posture myself in a way that allowed people to know that I felt shame. I think I call that the nobility complex. Like, it's a very strange. Like, I need you to know how humble I am. I need you to know that I feel bad about this thing. And so there's. I think that's like before the ego death, like, for me, it's. There requires an ego death to kind of let go of that, like, need to let people know that, you know, you know, or to defend yourself. That's a hard, that's a hard place to get to. I'm still working on it, I think, but, you know.
- [41:12]
April
Well, I think you also, you're. You're downplaying who you are a little bit, I feel like. Because you also only recently left a pretty well known Christian band. Am I, am I allowed to say.
- [41:28]
Tim
Yeah.
- [41:30]
April
Could I say it?
- [41:32]
Tim
You can, yeah.
- [41:34]
April
Danny, you are a member of Avalon. Like the.
- [41:37]
Tim
Yes. I was.
- [41:41]
Danny Rocca
Saying, I had an Avalon shirt. That glue that glowed in the dark. Okay. It had the a. It was like green. Yeah, I saw them. They would always tour at America's Keswick. It's. It's where I live in New Jersey. And so they would always play that spot. And I was like a 1012 year old kid obsessed with their music. Testify to Love, you know, all that, that, that, that iconic album cover where like they're sitting and laughing. Yeah, just. Yeah, I was a huge Avalon fan, so I'm a little starstruck. Not gonna lie, Danny, you know, so.
- [42:07]
Tim
As you should be. I don't have a nobility complex anymore.
- [42:11]
Danny Rocca
Not worthy. Yeah, I mean, that is. I mean, I gotta ask. How did you get hooked up like with them and get, you know, becoming part of that group is pretty iconic for the CCM world for sure, you know?
- [42:26]
Tim
Yeah. So crazy enough, when I moved to Houston, I. At the church, like right around the corner from our house. Greg and Jana Long were the worship leaders. And then Sarah Kelly was also a worship leader. And Sarah Kelly was like big in the 90s, early 2000s as well. She's Grammy nominated, Grammy winning. And so I was singing at a church with them and that was like, what, 2012? Something like that. When I was pregnant, I was singing with them for like a whole summer and got to know them really well. Dinner at their house. Like, they, they've known me since I've had my first child. And so eight years after that, they randomly called me and they were like, hey, we're thinking about getting Avalon together. Would you want to audition? I was like, what?
- [43:21]
Danny Rocca
Right, right. I'm sorry.
- [43:22]
Tim
Huh? What do you mean? And so I was like, testify to love. Wants me to do what?
- [43:27]
Danny Rocca
Right, Exactly. Can't live a day.
- [43:30]
Tim
Wants me to do what?
- [43:31]
Danny Rocca
Yes.
- [43:32]
Tim
And so I was like, okay, thinking that we're going to, like, form a new band, because at this point, it was just Greg and Jana, and I didn't even know who was at the time. Jeremy. So, yeah, I auditioned for Don Cook, and I was like, I don't know if that is. And Joel, my husband, is very into everything. Everything Christian music. And so he's always like, what do you mean? You don't know who that is?
- [43:59]
Danny Rocca
So who is he?
- [44:00]
Tim
I was like, I listened. I listened to boys, to men when I was younger. I'm sorry.
- [44:05]
Danny Rocca
Right.
- [44:08]
Tim
Don Cook wrote a lot of Christian, like, a lot of the Christian songs that you know, and Adonai was one of them.
- [44:16]
Danny Rocca
Got it.
- [44:17]
April
And that song used to make me cry.
- [44:22]
Tim
May he rest in peace.
- [44:25]
April
So I did, like. There was quite a nod to some 90s CCM in Shiny Happy People Season 2. We had some Carmen in there.
- [44:35]
Tim
Yeah.
- [44:36]
April
I feel like I see DC Talk.
- [44:37]
Danny Rocca
I. I saw DC Talk in the first episode.
- [44:40]
April
Yeah. DC Talk.
- [44:42]
Danny Rocca
It's kind of weird. It's kind of weird to see Michael now on a screen. I'm like, I mean, it's not their fault, obviously. It was probably done way before that came out, but it's like, yikes, man. Geez.
- [44:53]
Tim
Yeah. Yeah, that one was tough.
- [44:56]
Danny Rocca
Yeah.
- [44:56]
April
Yeah. Okay, so I feel like we'll have to have you back at some point just to talk about ccm.
- [45:02]
Danny Rocca
That would be a lot of fun. Forehead. Point of grace.
- [45:06]
Tim
So Michael W. Smith, a friend is a friend forever.
- [45:10]
Danny Rocca
Am I right, Danny?
- [45:11]
April
Oh, my gosh. You know what? I went to a Michael W. Smith concert back in. I think it was like, 2019. Yeah, I think it was 2019. So it was right after my second was born, and my mom was like, hey, I'm going to Michael W. Smith concert. I have an extra ticket. Do you want to go? Really? She bought a ticket knowing that I would go. But anyway, it doesn't matter. I went with my mom, and it was like, all fine. I was still coming to terms with Christian nationalism at the time, but it wasn't. I was still, like, new and, like, talking about it, whatever. And I remember sitting there and everyone stayed seated pretty much the entire time, right until Michael W. Smith starts singing the song he wrote about 9 11, where, like, the flag still stands. And I swear people started standing up and raising their hands in worship, and they didn't do that on any of the actual Jesus worship songs. But they did it and did a standing ovation on the song about 9, 11. And I was fuming.
- [46:13]
Danny Rocca
I'm not. I'm not surprised. I. I believe that. 100, 100. I just have to ask and then we'll move on. But I. So you joined Avalon, then you. What year was that? Was that. Was that you said eight years from 2012 to 20.
- [46:30]
Tim
20. 2018.
- [46:31]
Danny Rocca
Oh, 2018. Okay. And then how long were you with Avalon?
- [46:35]
Tim
Until a couple months ago.
- [46:38]
April
That's pretty recent. Yeah, when I met. When I met Danny. So I. So Danny and I, we meet, right? We're in line to check in, and we're kind of eyeing each other because we were mutuals on TikTok. So we had. We had. We were already aware of who each other were. And I recognized her, but I was like, is that because you never know when you meet somebody for the first time, you know?
- [46:56]
Danny Rocca
Totally.
- [46:57]
April
You don't want to be that person Anyway, so we discuss it, we start chatting, we hang out. Because you and I interviewed on the same day. I was in the morning and you were in the afternoon. So the day before we get there, we're hanging out, we're talking, and she. Danny, just. Just casually is like, yeah, I'm in Avalon. I was like, wait, excuse me, Like Avalon.
- [47:16]
Danny Rocca
Avalon, right.
- [47:17]
April
And she was like, yeah, like, wait, wait, no, no, like Testify to Love.
- [47:20]
Danny Rocca
Not like. Not like a cover band Avalon, but like Avalon. Avalon, Right, exactly.
- [47:26]
April
I know. And I just didn't know that because you, like, no offense to who I envision, like, being in Avalon or just like CCM in general, but you were like, so chill and cool, and you were. I mean, you weren't giving me Avalon vibes, if I'm being honest.
- [47:45]
Tim
Avalon vibes? What are those? I want to put those on.
- [47:50]
April
But I just remember being so shocked. It's like, what, they're still making music? Yeah.
- [47:56]
Tim
We made two albums. Two albums.
- [47:58]
April
I know, which is so cool. Another thing. Cool. Just a little behind the scenes too. And I plan to post this. Maybe by the time this airs, I will.
- [48:06]
Tim
Are you talking about CeeLo?
- [48:07]
April
I am talking about CeeLo.
- [48:10]
Danny Rocca
You mean this picture? I queued up for everyone. There it is.
- [48:13]
April
Yes. Oh, yes. So Danny and I. So Danny, me, and then Corey is also in this picture. We were having drinks with another Corey, who was one of the directors. And me and Corey were sitting facing CeeLo Green, right? And I whispered to Corey, I'm like, hey, does that man over there look like ceelo Green. And Corey's like, yes, I thought so too, but I didn't want to be weird. And I was like, okay. So then we whisper to Dani, and she's, like, casually trying to, like, look behind casually to see.
- [48:46]
Danny Rocca
Don't yawn. Don't yawn. Ah. Look the other way.
- [48:49]
Tim
You know, Google the photo. Make sure we're not, like, mixing up.
- [48:55]
Danny Rocca
Hey, ChatGPT, who is this? You know?
- [48:58]
April
Yeah, so we googled the photos, and we're like, no, I'm pretty sure that is him. I don't think my eyes are playing tricks on me. That looks like him. And so then eventually, we were like, should we go over there? And then Corey. Not Corey in the picture, director Corey was like, y' all just need to go over there. Come on, let's go. I'll take your picture. And also, at this point, we all had a little bit of liquid courage, had a little bit of alcohol in me, so, like, sure, why not? So we go up to him, and he was sitting by himself. There was a woman with him, and then she had left. And then he continued sitting there for a while just alone. And so I went up to him, and I was like, excuse me, are you CeeLo Green?
- [49:36]
Tim
And he was like, yeah.
- [49:39]
April
Like, that was. That was what he gave me. And I said, cool. I love your music. Could we have a picture?
- [49:47]
Tim
And he's like, cool. Yeah.
- [49:50]
April
He said, like, he barely moved. He's like, yeah, like, okay. So we just go and we gather around him just like you're seeing in this picture. Snap the picture. We're like, thank you so much. And he's like, that's it. I mean, he was not. That was it. That was. That was the exchange. And I never posted it because I didn't know how to explain who I was with and why without breaking an NDA.
- [50:17]
Danny Rocca
Well, that. That brings. That brings us. You did. That's hilarious. This brings us to the conversation between you, me, April, because you told me you were going to Georgia. I was like, oh, for what? You're like, I can't tell you. But then you did send me this picture. And I was like, wait, what are you doing in Georgia with Ceela? What is going on? I. It threw me off the scent so much. Like, I would never guess I did that on purpose. Oh, well, it worked, April. It worked. I was totally. I'm like, like, how? What?
- [50:44]
Tim
Who? Like a music video with CeeLo Green?
- [50:49]
Danny Rocca
That's what I'm thinking. Are you an extra, like, in a CeeLo green video or something? So, yeah, that's pretty cool, though. That's. That's a very cool moment, I guess, you know. That's awesome.
- [50:58]
April
Yeah. A little behind the scenes.
- [51:00]
Danny Rocca
Danny, I did want to ask you, you know, how has, I guess, the combination of, obviously that you being with Team Media for a long time, you talked earlier about, you know, getting married, having kids, like all that stuff. Right. And like, you know, realizing that you've always been giving to other people, which is such a relatable thing for so many people, especially women, I think, who have a similar journey of leaving high control religious environments and then becoming a mother right away. Right. Just a lot to give. How has this impacted, like, your faith at all? You know, I mean, April and I have talked a lot about this personally, how leaving these spaces, we're still very much committed to the way of Jesus. In fact, that's why we did leave those spaces.
- [51:40]
Tim
Right.
- [51:41]
Danny Rocca
We couldn't reconcile it anymore. But a lot of people have a different experience where they just tend to leave faith behind, and we totally understand why they do that. I'm just curious for you, the impact of faith throughout all of this for you?
- [51:52]
Tim
Yeah, I would say the same, like, exactly what you just said, but also, like, I. I think growing up marginalized and as a layer kind of made it more of a decolonizing of my faith and kind of removing myself from, like, the broader white evangelical context of it all. Because again, like, when you center America, you start centering America. And I grew up overseas too, and so there's like another layer of separation where I'm like, okay, but America's not the only place that Jesus loves, is it?
- [52:27]
Danny Rocca
Right.
- [52:29]
Tim
So when you're able to kind of separate it and say, okay, I can be patriotic person without having to also equate it with, you know, America and Jesus at the same time.
- [52:40]
Danny Rocca
Yeah.
- [52:43]
Tim
I don't really know the answer to that. That's like a really good question because I feel like I've remained pretty. Aside from finding my autonomy, which has been the most freeing part of it all as far as my faith goes, I feel like I've been very, very much, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater my whole life, but I've just been quiet about it. I hold my cards very close to my chest. And so I'm always observing other people. And, you know, I was studying to be a therapist. And so I'm like, wanting to hold space for everybody's perspectives and everybody's journeys. And so I tend to not share my opinions on things and so. And they change. They change over time, too, as I learn new information, and I feel like I've grown a lot and learned a lot. But also, I've always believed that my faith is personal to me and not necessarily something to be broadcasted. Like the. I feel like being a part of Teen Mania, there was this. This pressure to always, you know, like the. The white woman's Instagram. Like, you. You put your coffee in your Bible and you have your highlighter out, and you want to make sure people know you're reading your Bible, or, you know, you want to put a scripture verse, or you want to say, you know, God's got it, or God bless so and so, or, you know, there's my.
- [54:00]
Danny Rocca
Quiet time with the Lord today kind of vibe. Yeah. Yeah.
- [54:04]
Tim
Even at Team Mania. Like, I felt guilty at Teen Mania because I wasn't doing it enough of the performative action of that, because I just didn't feel like I wanted to. And so there were times where I'm like, okay, I have to pray out loud. What do I. And like, there's this. When you pray, you have to say Father God at least 28 times or else you didn't petition him enough, clearly.
- [54:29]
Danny Rocca
Yes, of course. At least 28.
- [54:33]
April
If you didn't keep saying his name, he forgot you were talking to him. So you gotta keep his attention.
- [54:37]
Danny Rocca
He's not that powerful, April. Okay. He has to be reminded.
- [54:41]
Tim
Yeah. So I think. I think for me, especially after being on stage at choir the Fire, and feeling like I was constantly trying to shepherd thousands and thousands and thousands of teenagers all the time, as a teenager myself, and realizing how many things that I got wrong, I was like, you know, this is, for me, this is mine. And I think that that in. In that world, it is looked down upon that I don't. That I remain neutral in my public discourse, I guess. But that's just kind of how it's been for me on my journey.
- [55:16]
April
So I think that's fair, because I do think when you come from that world, people put so much emphasis on what you believe as opposed to what you do.
- [55:25]
Danny Rocca
Right.
- [55:25]
April
And, you know, if you. If you say that you believe this thing and it goes against what everybody else believes, then it just gives them ammo to be like, well, you don't believe it, just like I do. So you're not a true Christian, as opposed to just loving your neighbor and following Jesus as best you can.
- [55:44]
Danny Rocca
I remember my. I remember going to see bands and people were like, oh, they. They didn't thank God. So they must not be Christian. Like, that was like a real litmus test, you know, like, if. And it's interesting all three of us. Us are musicians in some way, because I used to be a professional drummer for a lot of years in CCM spaces. And outside of it, April, obviously, you know, your claim to fame is that you sing on the Jay Baker show, so. Or Jim Baker show, so there's that.
- [56:07]
April
Jim Baker.
- [56:08]
Danny Rocca
Yeah. Danny, you're. You're in the legendary Avalon. So, you know, I think that. That there is, like, a musical element that we all kind of share of, like, you know, we were in this space that was so emphatic about your music always being Christian, your music always being designed to glorify God. If it was about anything else, it was, like, inherently problematic. When in reality, music is to capture the whole human experience. There are parts of our life that aren't inherently about Jesus all the time, and that's okay, you know?
- [56:35]
April
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's because this. This world is very black and white. It's either from God or it's from Satan, because there's no nuance and there's no middle ground.
- [56:45]
Danny Rocca
Yeah.
- [56:46]
Tim
Yeah.
- [56:47]
April
Danny, I have one last question for you.
- [56:49]
Tim
Yes. And I have an answer.
- [56:51]
April
Great.
- [56:52]
Tim
So about the Teenage Bill of Rights.
- [56:55]
April
The Teenage Bill of Rights.
- [56:56]
Tim
What you don't know about. You don't know about Ron's Teenage Bill.
- [56:59]
Danny Rocca
Of Rights dropping bombs.
- [57:01]
April
Now I have two questions.
- [57:02]
Danny Rocca
Yeah, now we. Oh, my God. Like, go on. We're listening.
- [57:10]
April
Okay, well, what is that? Real quick. Yeah, please.
- [57:14]
Danny Rocca
ChatGPT is giving me nothing. I need answers.
- [57:19]
Tim
This was the thing that we had to commit to as teenagers. I think it was one of the acquire the fires that he brought it. And actually, Joel and I looked at it and we're like, huh? I agree with almost all of this still, and I think that you might as well. You know how we talk about we follow Jesus right out of the church or whatever. That's what it feels like. I shall read it to you. Are you ready?
- [57:42]
Danny Rocca
I'm ready.
- [57:44]
Tim
Awesome. We, the teens, in order to form a more righteous generation, raise our voice in one accord to set the direction for this generation. When so many leaders of our society refuse to lead in truth, when those who sell us goods do so solely for their own financial gain, despite the toll their goods might take on us. When those who have shaped our society often hold no moral compass through which to guide us into the future. When the majority with celebrity influence take no responsibility for their position as role models and influencers. When Honesty and truth are scorned and manipulated by many leaders in high offices, and integrity is regarded as weakness. When character is mocked by the media and our leaders are afraid to take a moral stand because it might be unpopular, when rebellion is the norm and seen as a right to be demanded, when corruption in society threatens the very foundation upon which it was built, it is necessary for us as teens to redefine our society and lay claim to our right to bring truth to our generation. We take it upon ourselves to rise up and call our generation to a higher standard. A standard not built by poles, but on principle. Not based on what feels good, but on what is good. Not built on what is cool, but what is correct. Not built on what is convenient, but on character. Not based on what is easy, but on what is excellent. Not built on what is popular, but in what is prudent. And not built on what everyone else thinks, but on what God thinks. Not built on Hollywood, but on honor. That was page one.
- [59:11]
Danny Rocca
Wow. You're kidding me. Are you serious?
- [59:14]
April
So far from that? I mean, I agree with that. That's why we call out the Trump administration and Christian nationalism.
- [59:21]
Tim
That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. I was like, he taught us. Ron taught us to be the way that we are. He taught us this.
- [59:29]
Danny Rocca
You know, I might. If you're willing to give us a copy of that just so we have it, I'm gonna want that, because that is such, like, if. You know, I'm sure you've seen it, Danny. You know, these. A lot of these evangelical leaders and influencers out there are like, oh, you know, progressive Christianity, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, guys, this is from your own world. This is why we left. I took this. I took those claims seriously. I all. Everything that you just said in that statement, I believe and still believe, which is why I left those spaces to find Jesus somewhere else. That is wild. That is wild. Oh, my gosh.
- [60:03]
Tim
So page two is a little bit more rule, like. But that one was, like, very much like. Yep, absolutely, absolutely.
- [60:09]
Danny Rocca
Check, check, check.
- [60:11]
April
A lot of your high five, Danny.
- [60:12]
Danny Rocca
We did it.
- [60:15]
April
A lot of your honor Academy rules remind me of the rules that I had when I went to an Assemblies of God college because I had a friend who was dating a guy from the football team. Both went to the college, and they found condoms in his car.
- [60:31]
Danny Rocca
Wow.
- [60:31]
April
And they kicked her out, but not him.
- [60:34]
Tim
Oh, yeah. That's how it goes.
- [60:36]
April
Yeah.
- [60:37]
Danny Rocca
That's like finding, like, the book of Satan.
- [60:40]
Tim
She tempted Him, Right. She probably tempted him and he fell prey to her.
- [60:45]
Danny Rocca
Yeah, Danny, obviously, you know, I mean.
- [60:46]
April
That'S how boys will be boys.
- [60:48]
Danny Rocca
Yeah. Men can't control themselves. Like, we are just raging monsters and it's just, it's on you guys to solve that for us.
- [60:54]
Tim
You're really just victims.
- [60:56]
Danny Rocca
Thank you.
- [60:56]
Tim
Victims of women.
- [60:58]
April
Yes, I know. How do you live in a world.
- [61:00]
Danny Rocca
Hard to be a white man in America? Let me tell you.
- [61:04]
Tim
I've heard about this. I've heard about that. Yeah.
- [61:06]
April
Yeah.
- [61:07]
Tim
It must be hard for you, the.
- [61:08]
April
Flight of the white man. Okay, now to my actual final question.
- [61:15]
Danny Rocca
Oh, I was so bad. Danny, just so you know, I'm just kidding. I mean, I know that you don't. April knows me, but I just really need to say to the audience, guys, that was just sarcasm. That was New Jersey sarcasm.
- [61:23]
April
Okay, don't need to clarify. Someone is going to clip that and.
- [61:25]
Danny Rocca
Be like, damn, it's hard to be a white man in America. Like, no, guys, it's a joke, okay?
- [61:31]
Tim
As long as they don't clip me saying, yeah, you are the victim.
- [61:35]
April
Yeah, there we go. Danny's also problematic now. Okay, so my actual question. Yeah, what kind of feedback have you seen? So it's kind of a part, a two parter and then two. I obviously have seen a lot of Pro Teen Mania people that are coming out of the woodworks and they're commenting on my stuff. They're commenting on Amazon Prime's trailers, like everywhere I could see it. We're like, you're not telling the whole story. No one was there against their will. I had a great experience. Experience and you know, being really dismissive of actual real trauma that a lot of you all went through. So I want to give you the floor and if you could say something where they had actually listened to you, the people that are kind of fighting this narrative of your experience, what would you say to them?
- [62:24]
Tim
I remember the feeling of feeling like my entire belief system and community is under attack because someone dare to share something negative that I wasn't currently experiencing. I remember when the Recovering Alumni blog came out. I remember when we were all brought into the auditorium and told, don't read it. They are out to get us. They are trying to bring down the ministry. They're trying to thwart God. And they're trying. Their ultimate goal is to make sure that Dave Haas, the director gets fired. And I remember believing that and being like, okay, I have to protect my people. So I understand that feeling. I remember that feeling. However, when it comes to some, a space that has so many different experiences, backgrounds that has produced a wide range of victimology, if you will. Your experience is completely valid for you. Their experience is valid for them as well. And so to try to discount someone else's experience because you want to generalize your own experience and cancel out everybody else's is the least Christ like thing I think that you can do. And if you claim to love Christ as you do, and if you claim to want to love the world and you know, love people, then I would say start by loving people in a way that meets them where they're at, instead of putting your defenses up to try to protect a system that did cause harm to a large majority of us. And I understand we all had good experiences too. We're not discounting the good times. Like, we're not discounting the fun that we had, the laughter, the late nights, the growth, the, you know, the things we learned. We're not discounting those things. Two things, 10 things, 20 things can be true all at the same time. And so can people's experiences. It's not just one experience, it's hundreds, it's thousands of experiences. And they're all going to be different. And that's okay. It does not mean that you are under attack as a person. You don't have to personalize it for yourself. Just take it in and feel however you want to feel and then just lend a listening ear and be the body of Christ.
- [65:01]
April
Yeah. You know, approach it with curiosity. And just because you hear Harm, it doesn't discount your experience. Like you two things can be true at the same time. Yeah, I actually, I feel like one thing I want to start doing is using the purity culture illustrations that was taught to us. But just like back at a lot of these teen mania and like pro Christian nationalist people that want to dismiss harm in churches, you know where they were like, this is a, Here's a. These are brownies, right. And they're totally normal brownies. They look normal, they look good. But someone put a tiny little sprinkle of poop in it. Now, knowing that, would you still want to eat it even? It's just a little bit. Just put it back.
- [65:48]
Danny Rocca
Yeah.
- [65:49]
April
Do you still want to go do a ministry with a little bit of poop in it?
- [65:53]
Danny Rocca
Or the line of, you shouldn't be afraid of truth. Right. Wherever truth is found, there is God, so you shouldn't be afraid to examine things. And if it's true, that's where God is. And if it's not true, you can reject it, but you should at least examine it.
- [66:04]
Tim
Yeah, exactly.
- [66:06]
Danny Rocca
Sweet.
- [66:07]
April
Danny, thank you so much for being with us. Can you tell people where they can find you if they want to follow you and hear more about you and your life and all the things?
- [66:16]
Tim
Yeah. If you want to follow me and learn more about me and life and all the things, you can follow me at DannyRocamusic on all the social media platforms and you'll find me if you Google me too.
- [66:33]
April
Yeah. And you can find her pictures of her in Avalon as well.
- [66:36]
Danny Rocca
Yes.
- [66:37]
Tim
You can also type my name in D A. I'm just kidding. Like, she's never gonna stop.
- [66:47]
Danny Rocca
Yeah. Thanks, Danny, for spelling out your entire name.
- [66:50]
April
Yeah, you do spell Danny. D A N I, though, for those listening who may be not there. And an R, O, C, A.
- [66:57]
Tim
Yes. Rocca. Sorry, I was trying to do a Will Forte thing. You know where he does it now? He's just like my name.
- [67:05]
Danny Rocca
That's hilarious.
- [67:06]
April
I love your mind and the way it works.
- [67:09]
Danny Rocca
Danny, thank you for making time and being one of the first interviews after the show's debut. It means a lot.
- [67:14]
Tim
Of course. And I can't wait to watch it again so I can hone in on it, I think.
- [67:21]
April
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you were great in it. I'm really glad that I got to meet you that fateful day in Atlanta, Georgia, and that I had someone I could talk to about it because I signed at NDA and was like, alien attacker on it so bad.
- [67:34]
Tim
It's true. We're like, hey. So.
- [67:38]
Danny Rocca
I love it. I love it. Well, friends, thanks so much for watching. We love your thoughts. Leave a comment. Make sure to sub to the channel and we'll do this again. I'm sure some at some point. Because, Danny, I feel like you just dropped so many seeds for us to pick up on. So we'll have to have you come back at some point. Unpack them.
- [67:52]
Tim
Yes, that would be really fun.
- [67:53]
April
Sweet.
- [67:54]
Danny Rocca
Sounds good.
- [67:54]
April
And watch Shiny Happy People, Season 2, streaming on Amazon Prime. Yeah, roll the stinger or whatever it is.
- [68:01]
Danny Rocca
I'll do it.
- [68:02]
Tim
Roll the tape. It.