46. The Role of Women and Queer People in Doug Wilson's Christian America

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Tim & April Show
Host: The New Evangelicals
Episode: 46 — "The Role of Women and Queer People in Doug Wilson's Christian America"
Date: September 16, 2025

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Overview

This powerful episode continues last week’s deep dive into Doug Wilson’s vision for a "Christian America," focusing on the roles of women and queer people within that framework. Hosts Tim Whitaker and April Ajoy react in real-time to an extended CNN interview with Wilson—a controversial pastor known for his Christian nationalist, patriarchal, and anti-LGBTQ+ ideology. Throughout, Tim and April unpack Wilson’s worldview, expose its dangers, and highlight its increasing influence within American Christian nationalist politics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Doug Wilson’s Gender Role Worldview

[04:26–17:48]

• The CNN interview resumes with Wilson asserting that "women are the kind of people that people come out of" ([05:34, D]) and minimizing the challenge of childbirth.
• April and Tim react with disbelief and frustration, pointing out the immense difficulty of childbirth and how society (and Wilson) trivializes women’s work, both in the home and beyond.

“I would love to see him push a baby out of a hole that is like 12 times less of a size than what you’re pushing...Women are built different.” — April ([06:05])

• Tim notes the hypocrisy—men like Wilson heap enormous expectations on wives (having many children, running the home, being a "good wife") but claim women can also work "if there’s time." Ultimately, autonomy is denied to women who don’t fit Wilson's domestic ideal.
• They discuss the inherent dangers of childbirth, especially in states with restricted reproductive rights, and how Wilson’s ideology puts women further at risk ([11:36–12:51]).
• Tim reiterates that, in Wilson’s model, women who don’t marry or bear children don’t belong.

2. Marriage, Authority, and Submissiveness

[19:04–24:06]

• Wilson explicitly compares the husband-wife dynamic to a boss-employee relationship, where the wife is permanently the subordinate ([20:11–20:51, D]).
• April and Tim critique the analogy’s cruelty—if a wife is unhappy, she can’t just leave as in a job; she’s often financially trapped and shamed for divorce.
• The discussion pans out to how this hierarchy enables abuse and deprives women of autonomy.

“What Doug is saying is that…no matter what happens to them, they are under the rule of her husband. Doesn’t matter how shitty he is… She is stuck. And if she leaves, she's the problem.” — Tim ([22:33])

• They underscore how, even in church, women remain excluded from authority, despite Wilson’s claim of "equality in Christ" ([25:35, B]).

3. Handling of Abuse and Scandal

[25:19–30:44]

• The CNN journalist presses Wilson about allegations he has minimized or ignored abuse within his network, specifically the case of Steven Sitler, whom Wilson—knowing of his history as a pedophile—married off to a woman in his congregation.
• Wilson deflects, refusing accountability.
• Tim and April emphasize the staggering lack of pastoral responsibility and Wilson’s cowardice in dodging real-world harm caused by his leadership.

"He can’t even take accountability for marrying off a pedophile in his church. He has to deflect. What a weak man. What a coward of a man.” — Tim ([29:34])

4. Queer People in Christian Nationalism: Calls for Criminalization

[34:33–45:56]

• Wilson is questioned directly about whether homosexuality should be punished in his ideal America. He attempts to soften by referencing "exile" instead of stoning, but ultimately admits he supports punishment:

“You would like America to go back to that [era where sodomy was a felony]?” — CNN Journalist
“Yep.” — Wilson ([47:17, C and D])

• April and Tim provide urgent historical context, noting the immense suffering queer people faced under felonious laws and tying this rhetoric to white evangelical support for segregation and other forms of oppression.
• Tim lays out how the focus of Christian nationalism is never on the injustices suffered by the poor, marginalized, or victims of abuse, but always targets queer people and women ([40:53]).

5. Influence and the Danger of Fringe No More

[46:06–55:04]

• The hosts warn that Wilson’s views are not fringe, given his mentorship of powerful GOP figures like Pete Hegseth (current Secretary of War) and efforts to infiltrate government with church plants in D.C.
• Even those who wouldn’t state things as overtly as Wilson, by tolerating or refusing to call out these views, still empower the broader Christian nationalist agenda.
• Tim reminds listeners that Wilson has written in defense of slavery (with a white supremacist) and considers homosexuality “worse than slavery.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

All timestamps in MM:SS format as per the original transcript.

• On Women’s Roles:

  • “What actually takes no talent is ejaculation. I mean, sometimes you men do it in your sleep, right?” — April ([09:22])
  • “Women are built different. Have you ever seen a man with a cold?” — April ([06:39])
  • “For Doug, his job is to be this author and run these businesses...for the wife, she has to have these five or eight kids, be the...executive of the house...and if she has time, she can do stuff outside of that.” — Tim ([16:00])

• On Marriage as Hierarchy:

  • “That’s not the same thing...you can leave your boss and find a new job, but you, in this worldview, you can’t leave your husband.” — Tim ([21:11])
  • “A lot of women are trapped because they have nowhere to go and they don’t have any money to leave.” — April ([22:37])

• On Abuse and Leadership Failure:

  • “Doug Wilson...married off this man [a convicted pedophile] to a woman in his church. And Stephen reoffended with their infant.” — Tim ([26:42])
  • “He can’t even take accountability...What a weak man. What a coward of a man.” — Tim ([29:34])

• On Criminalizing Queer People:

  • “For Doug, right, the Overton Window has moved in the wrong direction. So if he’s in charge, we have to punish gay people.” — Tim ([43:17])

• On the Broader Agenda:

  • “Even people who may not...support Christian nationalism in other ways—whether it’s for abortion or whatever—you are still supporting that.” — April ([54:43])
  • “They finally, finally had the power that they've been seeking for decades. And it's scary. It's downright scary.” — Tim ([55:04])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Doug’s View of Women’s Role: [05:34–11:36]
• Birth and Gender Role Reality Check: [06:05–12:51]
• Career & Domestic Expectations of Women: [16:00–18:52]
• Marriage Subordination and "Boss" Analogy: [20:11–22:55]
• Abuse, Authority, and Divorce Dynamics: [22:33–25:35]
• Handling of Pedophile Scandal: [26:42–30:44]
• Wilson on Queer People and Criminalization: [34:33–43:17]
• Linking Religious Law and Secular Justice: [49:00–50:48]
• Defense of Slavery (Again): [50:48–51:33]
• Not Fringe; Political Influence and Urgency: [54:43–56:10]

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a sobering, sometimes darkly humorous but always impassioned critique of the ideological, theological, and practical threats posed by Doug Wilson and those who share or tolerate his vision for an America where women and queer people are second-class citizens—or worse. Tim and April balance personal storytelling, doctrinal analysis, and political context, making this a must-listen (or read) for anyone seeking to understand the stakes in ongoing battles over faith, justice, and inclusivity in America.

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The language and tone throughout is candid, urgent, and rooted in personal conviction, with both hosts leveraging their experience in the church and progressive Christian spaces to arm listeners with both facts and the tools for resistance.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to a new evangelicals production.

[B]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[A]

The Tim and April show, where we unravel faith, politics and culture.

[B]

We're on April. We're on. Oh, you're muted. April's muted.

[A]

I know. What a terrible start I was already. And then you started playing the Stinger and I was like, oh, shoot, I don't have my headphones in. So then I quickly muted the computer because I didn't want to mess up the audio. But then what I. What I did, though, is. Okay, I know this is a terrible start. We were so prepared before you started doing that. Hold on, I got to show you this.

[B]

Okay, I'm ready. Show me.

[A]

So my daughter was working on some homework here and so I just saw headphones, right? So I plugged in the headphones because I just keep headphones here, right? I plugged in the first ones I grabbed and I accidentally plugged in these. There's no way.

[B]

No, you have to have to wear those. That's hilarious.

[A]

No, I was like, no, I'm not wearing those on the show. So then I try to unplug it, but by that point you were staring at me and time and time had got away from me. So I'm going to plug in my actual headphones. Phones.

[B]

No problem. While you're doing that. While you're doing that. Hello, friends. Welcome into the Tim and April Show. I'm Tim Whitaker. That is April A joy. Getting her headphones. Getting her headphones situated. We are picking up from a part one that we did last week on Doug Wilson. We are in the middle of watching an extended interview that he did with CNN. We have about 12 minutes left, but we ran out. We ran out of time last week. So we figured that. We figured that we would do a part two and kind of get back into it. So thanks so much for being here. Please make sure to like and subscribe to the channel. We do this every week and we also go live every Thursday at 12:00 clock Eastern right here on YouTube and also on podcast. So hello to all of our podcast listeners. Thank you so much for being here. Please make sure to give us a rating and a review. It really helps us out also. Let's see. This will come out next week. Should we make the announcement then, April? Should we just start talking about. About a big thing that is happening at.

[A]

Do we have the clear to go ahead to announce it already?

[B]

I think we do. Well, I mean, it's just on our show and this is coming out, you know, a week from now. I think we're good to announce it.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Well, also, don't forget, you won't be on the next live, right. Because you're going to be out of town with Beecher. So I want us to do this together at some point. So, friends, really cool, exciting news. We have got connected with Lincoln Square Media. They are a pretty large media company, digital mainly on substack and on other social media. And we're going to be streaming our live, our live episodes every Thursday to of course, our YouTube channel, but also to the Lincoln, Lincoln Square Media substack, which is awesome because they have like so exciting. Yeah, they have a really big audience and their audience, I think, is largely not exvangelical. So we're going to reach a whole new type of person with the message of, hey, we're former Christian nationalists trying to help people understand the dangers of Christian nationalism. And we are so excited.

[A]

The gospel we are, we are going into all the world.

[B]

Yes, it's all the nations preaching the good news. But honestly, I'm really excited for this. It's going to be great. Nothing is changing on podcasts or on YouTube. We are simply streaming to more places now, which is super exciting. So I'm really pumped that we're able to announce that it's been in the works for a few months now and it's going to be really cool. So I'm excited.

[A]

I'm excited, too. Look at us.

[B]

Look at us.

[A]

So today we are going to continue what we started last week, which is finishing this Doug Wilson CNN interview. We just watched where we left off and we left off on him talking about gender roles and that there are very specific male and female roles, of course, like, like a special person.

[B]

Women make babies and make sandwiches and men rule over women and go to war. That's the tldr.

[A]

Women are the kind of people that people come out of.

[B]

Yeah. Wow, Doug. Wow.

[A]

About women.

[B]

If you don't know who Doug Wilson is, go watch part one. We go into all the details. We're not going to recap it all here. So if you want to kind of get up to speed, start on that episode, then come back over here and join this. Join this live with us so. Or this recording with us so all right, let's get back into this. We got about, about 10 minutes left. 12 minutes left in this video of Doug Wilson being interviewed on cnn. All right, friends, buckle up.

[C]

So what does that mean? What role do you think women play in society?

[D]

Women are the kind of people that people come out of.

[C]

So you just think they're meant to have babies?

[D]

No, it doesn't take any talent to simply reproduce biologically. The wife.

[B]

Okay, can we just stop right there? Like, I'm sorry, what?

[A]

I thought I've seen that clip already because that. So we're watching the full, like 30 minute interview and CNN post it. They aired a shorter six minute version that included that line, so I gave a little bit of a spoiler. But also, I would love to see him give birth. I would love to see him push a baby out of a hole that is like 12 times less of a size than what you're pushing. Like. And can I just say, and I'm not trying to brag on myself, but I pushed out both of my children without any drugs. I pulled out my first child with my bare hands.

[B]

You did?

[A]

I did. And I didn't cry.

[B]

What?

[A]

I'm just saying women are built different. Have you ever seen a man with a cold? Have you ever had a cold, Tim?

[B]

No. Never. Never. I am a strong alpha male. I never complain about my cold side. I don't think I'm dying or need to go to the hospital when I get the sniffles. That's not me at all, April. Definitely not. Just don't ask Sarah that same question.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure. But regardless, and for the record, I think it's great that, that women get epidurals. Like, however you produce a baby. Produce a baby. Because it is hard work to go nine months where your body is not your own and you are literally creating life. And then you either push that baby out or go through a major surgery where they slice you open in half. That is not for the faint of heart. And women do this every single day. Women want to do this in order to have children. Like the. What, what men do in the process of creating life is so minimal.

[B]

Well, according to some people, it's a sacrifice, April. It's a sacrifice.

[A]

Oh, my God. Josh Butler. This.

[B]

Can I, can I add to this from the other, other side of that perspective? Right? Because I, I so, so Sarah had medication for our first, but she did the second one unmedicated. And I will tell you something. I was there for both births. I watched everything. And after our first was born, I told. I forgot who I told. Maybe some friends. I was like, I don't know why, why we think that women are, like, weak people. Like, that was like, I just watched, like, something wild happen. My wife gave birth to another human. Like, she pushed out a child that had 10 fingers and 10 toes. It took nine months. Like, it was crazy. And I was like, I don't understand how society has such a low view of women and how people like Doug Wilson can really think that they are, quote, unquote, the weaker, you know, the weaker vessel. Are you kidding me? It was. It blew my mind. It blew my mind. My wife's body, right, has transformed numerous times to do all kinds of things, including sustaining life. I mean, she breastfed, breast smoke alone. How the body responds to what. What the child needs. Me. It is wild and it's a lot of work and it's not easy. And you're right. I mean, I would never. I could. I would never survive birth. I couldn't do it. I would. I would. It wouldn't. It wouldn't work for me. You know, and to have Doug out here be like, it takes no talent. Are you kidding me? Are you serious? Doug, like, how. How little does he think of women just to be a bunch of baby making machines?

[A]

What actually takes no talent is ejaculation. I mean, sometimes. Sometimes you men do it in your sleep, right? Like, literally not even thinking about it.

[B]

Hey, it's been a long time, okay? I was a teenager.

[A]

No, I don't. Repressing those urges.

[B]

Yeah. For real. No, for real, though. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, gosh.

[A]

I just. I. I remember when I got pregnant, I was so terrified of giving birth because, like, I went through the birthing class and like, they're. They're showing you all the. Like, this is what. This is like your cervix, when it starts, right? It's like so small.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And then it, like, gets bigger and bigger and then. And then.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you for, for the hand gestures.

[A]

And then even the size that it gets. It's still smaller than.

[B]

There we go.

[A]

It's still smaller than the baby's head. And I remember just like, looking. I remember looking at the little, like, diagrams that they had, and I was like, there's no way. Why did. Why does anyone give birth? I was so scared. The only thing that helped me was I walked around and I would just look at people and I would tell myself, that person came out of a woman. That person came out of, like, a mom birthed that a mom birthed That I was like. I was just. It's like I was so amazed, though. Like, we downplay it because it's just part of life, but it is truly. That's truly such a feat.

[B]

The word I use, and this is when I was not very evangelical, was. It was miraculous. I was like, wow. Like, this was like a holy thing that just happened. And it happens all the time. It happens all the time. Because that's what women can do. They give birth. It's like. It's a thing, and it is crazy. Yeah. And then we have Doug Wilson, who's like, it's talentless.

[A]

Like, the audacity of this man, to one.

[B]

The audacity.

[A]

Basically minimize women to just being birthing machines.

[B]

Yep. And sandwich makers. And sandwich makers.

[A]

Yeah. But then he. He finally gives them, like, yeah, they're just good for making babies. But then takes away how important and how hard it is to actually, like, create that baby in your own.

[B]

And also how dangerous it is. Birth is really risky. Women die, especially in America. Our infant mortality rate, our maternal mortality rate, they're not great. And in states where abortion is completely banned, it's higher. So the world that Doug Wilson creates or wants to create puts women at risk at a higher rate than the average, you know, average state that would have access to abortion laws and access to. To quality prenatal care. I mean, that's the other thing we have to mention here, is that these are the same people that will say, we. We can't do affordable healthcare in this country. That's socialism. You know, they set up these systems that actually harm mothers and children and then force women to give birth because that's what they're created to do. It's. It's horrible. It's horrible.

[A]

Yeah. And I just want to say, no matter how you give birth, it is hard and it is difficult. And props to all the people out there that give birth. And I just want to say, too, Doug Wilson couldn't handle it. I bet Doug Wilson would cry. I want to put him up to a machine where he can feel, like, the highest level of contraction pain. Just see. Just see how he. Just see how he does. Just saying.

[B]

Fair enough. I'm with you.

[D]

Mother, who is the chief executive of the home, is entrusted with three or four or five eternal souls.

[C]

I'm here as a working journalist, and I'm a mom of three.

[D]

Good for you.

[C]

Is that an issue?

[D]

No, it's not automatically an issue.

[C]

So, like in your.

[B]

It is an issue.

[C]

Christian nation, Christian America. Would this be acceptable that I'm here as a working mom in Idaho.

[D]

Sure wouldn't be sure.

[B]

I'm sorry, we got to point out he's. He, he's not telling the truth here. Again, if you listen to any of his friends, if you listen to that Stephen Wolf clip that we played on the last, last epis, he was very clear. Women are not to lead in society. Doug does not want to create a society where women have equal access to do what they want to do. Okay. He wants a society where women primarily are at home and they are raising children. I mean, this is what drives me wild about folks like Ali Stuckey. Right. Ally Stuckey will rant about feminism. Meanwhile, she's riding the coattails of feminists before her to be able to do what she does. I'm sure in her family, she's the red winner. She makes a lot of money. I don't think Doug Wilson, long term, if he was fully in charge, would want Ali Suckie doing what she does full time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm just saying.

[A]

Well, that's the, that's the end goal. If you keep going down this path and you give men like this more and more power, the end goal is going to be taking away the rights of all these women. Like, they're not going to pick you. Like the whole. Serena Joy in the Handmaid's Tale. She helped support the system that took over Gilead and she paid the price. They didn't want her in charge because she was a woman.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They're not going to pick any of these Christian nationalist women.

[B]

Definitely not.

[D]

This is the thing. There's a difference between what's a sin and a crime. Okay? So in every society, there's certain things that just. You don't let people do it.

[B]

All right?

[D]

It's a crime, it's against the law. Then there are things that I would advise people not to do pastorally. It'd be pastoral advice. It wouldn't be a law, wouldn't be a rule. So, for example, if, if you have women who are domestic, talented, educated and high powered, and I'm related to a number of those, right? So my wife has written, written eight or nine books, and my daughters have written books. Both my daughters have written books. One daughter has edited an English curriculum, English lit curriculum. And they are a mother of five and a mother of eight. And, you know, they're, they are fully full tilt domestic and they are high energy, talented people. I would say, go, team, go. That, that, that's wonderful. At the same time, I don't want to disparage women who want to spend their time in the home just focusing on focusing. I don't want to backhand it or disparage it at all. I want to honor that.

[C]

I want to honor that.

[D]

I want to honor.

[C]

You're comfortable with a working mom leaving the home and.

[D]

Sure.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

So I, sure.

[B]

I, I, I think we need to point out that Doug is comfortable as long as that person is still having five or eight children and being a great wife, meaning whenever her husband wants sex, gives it to him. And then also does that work? So not notice. Like, like, like, like, like the burden. Right. For Doug, his job is to be this author and run these, these businesses and run these churches and be a good dad and be a good, you know, be a good husband whenever he needs to. But for the wife, she has to have these five or eight kids be the, in his words, the executor of the house. And then if she has time, she can do stuff outside of that. What Doug doesn't want is a woman who says, you know what? I'm choosing not to get married, not to have kids. I want to go into the workforce and have a successful career, and that's what will make me happy. Doug does not want those type of women to exist in society. So there has to be these rules underneath of it. Sure. You can go to the workforce as long as you meet these other requirements first, which. That's what's so insidious about his worldview. Yes. It's impossible.

[A]

They expect women to be clear. It is not impossible to be a mom and have a career. It is impossible to have a career and be a mom and wife. And the way Doug Wilson expects women to be mom and wife where they are. Yes, they, they clean, they do all the cleaning, they do all the house chores, they do all the cooking, where they're the ones that are taking care of the children all the time.

[B]

They bathe the kids. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

If you're having multiple children, like, in school, when they start having extracurricular activities, like, it's impossible for you to be the mom. That is because the males, the men in these scenarios are just working.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, they're not expected to help out with the families because that's not their gender role. So what he's saying, sure, but he me. But he's saying sure to something that would be impossible in his, in his society.

[B]

And look, just for sake of transparency, Sarah, my partner is home with our kids full time. And I work, but I also, I cook, I clean, I do laundry. I work my schedule out so I can do stuff for the kids. And we have talked about, does that make sense for our life? And if it doesn't, we'll change it. Right? Like, Sarah has the freedom to do whatever she wants. So I'm not saying that people who are wives who are full time with their kids are automatically, like, under the thumb of some oppressive man. It's the system that Doug creates where he believes that's how the created order is supposed to be. Right. This is how it's supposed to work. And then if you have any time beyond all those things I just gave you, and you want to write some books or be, you know, a working mom, I guess you can do that. But first you have to fulfill your primary duty, which is. Which is to be someone's husband or someone's wife and, and, and someone's, you know, mother, essentially. And then you can do what you want. That's what's so insidious about all of this. It's just, it's very frustrating. And don't forget, friends, Doug Wilson is the man who disciples Pete Hegseth, our current Secretary of Defense. So this is not stuff that is like, I'm sorry, you're right.

[A]

He's the current Secretary of war.

[B]

Of war.

[A]

We haven't even talked about that yet.

[B]

I, I have so many thoughts on that. Well, we will get to it. We will get to it. But yeah, yeah, so keep that in mind.

[C]

A woman sitting across from you. Do you view me as an equal?

[D]

Oh, equal what? Equal person? Absolutely.

[C]

As an equal person with equal rights.

[D]

Equal equal person. So equal person, equal equality of citizenship. I would say, well, if you're a citizen, then there would be equality. But yes, God has created, in the first chapter of Genesis, male and female created he them in the image of God. He created them. So man and woman complement one another and together represent the image of God. So, and that's.

[C]

And you don't believe husband and wife are equals?

[D]

Well, I don't think they have equal roles. So there it is.

[B]

Here we go.

[D]

That's like asking which, which is, which is more equal, the violin or the bow? I say the violin or the bow. They're one instrument. The violin bow is one instrument.

[C]

Right, but from what I've read about you and your interviews, you have said that you believe the wife should be submissive to the husband, and therefore that wouldn't be equal if the wife is submissive to the husband.

[D]

Well, it wouldn't be. For example, if you. At cnn, you've got Bosses all the way up. And you make a distinction, as you ought to, between your equality with them as a human being and the fact that they happen to have authority over you in this job. Okay? So a person can say, my boss is my equal. As human beings are concerned, we should both have a right to a fair trial. We should both have the right to. To keep and bear arms. We should both have the right to free speech. But when I go into work, he has the right to tell me what to do, and I don't have the right to tell him what to do.

[C]

That's the dynamic you see in marriage.

[D]

Yeah. Within the confines of marriage, the husband is the head, the wife is submissive. His help meet. And when you enter into this, it's a believing Christian man and a believing Christian woman, both of whom want that arrangement is.

[B]

Notice how he's fumbling over his words like he knows. He knows how wild this sounds to people who are not part of, like, this, this bubble of evangelical fundamentalism, right? Because what he. He's saying the quiet parts out loud. He compared marriage to a boss, employee relationship. That's. That's not the same thing. You know why? Cause you can leave your boss and find a new job, but you, in this worldview, you can't leave your husband. Right? This is what's so insidious, is that when you're married to someone in this evangelical fundamentalist world, divorce is never an option. If you get hit, it's not an option. If you get sexually abused, it's not an option. If your husband doesn't meet any of your needs, it's not an option. So unlike a job where this journalist could potentially go to a different job if she was really unhappy at cnn, right? She could use her credentials to maybe go to MSNBC or start her own thing. One would say that's sinful or that's bad for a woman in this kind of marriage, if she does that, she is shamed, she's excommunicated. She's seen as a Jezebel, right? She's seen as someone who is less than. So it's actually a trap. What Doug is saying is that he believes that women, right, when. When they decide to get married, are entering into a lifelong partnership that. That no matter what happens to them, they are under the. The rule of her husband. Doesn't matter how shitty he is of a husband, doesn't matter what he does as a husband.

[A]

He.

[B]

She is stuck. And if she leaves, she's the problem.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's also a Huge difference too. And in the boss employee relationship, that employee is getting paid. And if they leave that company, they have money to go with them in a, in a marriage like, like what Doug is talking about. A lot of women are trapped because they have nowhere to go and they don't have any money to leave.

[B]

Exactly. They don't have access to the bank accounts. They haven't made any of the money. Right. So I mean, look, there's a lot of. There have been books that chronicle this. I mean, was it Tia Living's the untrained wife? She has a whole book on her experience of living with a well, well, well trained wife. Right. What did I say?

[A]

I think you said untrained wife.

[B]

Sorry. A well trained wife. Wife. Ah, it's a great. A well trained wife. It's a great book. I've interviewed her before the story. It's her story being in a space to what Doug Wilson prescribes and just how dehumanizing it is, how unhealthy it is, how abusive it is. And so there are many examples of how terrible this kind of arrangement is for women. Women are deprived of their power, of their autonomy, of their rights, and they are stuck under the thumb of men and they have no way out and they feel incredibly trapped. And that's what Douglas prescribing as the, the norm for what should happen in society. I mean, Doug does not want no fault divorce to be a thing. He doesn't want people to have rights to be able to escape unhealthy marriages. That's not what he's ever going to advocate for if he ever got the power that he wants in, in politics.

[A]

Yeah, Wife.

[C]

The property of the husband, essentially.

[D]

No, no, no, no.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

No. The. The wife is, as Paul says in Galatians 3:28, in Christ there's neither Jew nor Greek, slave or free, male or female. So in Christ before God, worshiping God, there's absolute equality between men and women.

[C]

But your view is. In the household, he just contradicted. The dynamic between a husband and wife is one of where the wife is submissive to the husband. And what does that look like in practice? Can the wife say no to the husband?

[D]

Under certain circumstances, she must say no to her husband.

[C]

Like what?

[D]

So as I'm fond of telling our people, no human authority on earth is absolute. The civil authority is not absolute. It's a true authority, but it's not absolute. There are times when you disobey the magistrate. The authority of the church pastors and elders is true human authority. But it's not absolute. There are times when you should leave a church. The authority of a husband is a true authority. There are times when a wife should tell him respectfully to pound sand.

[C]

Did you well know there have been claims.

[D]

Oh, I know.

[C]

That you have minimized or sort of brushed under the rug sexual abuse and violence.

[D]

Yes, there have been claims of that nature. And I would say, look at them go. Let them say what they say. It's simply false.

[B]

Really quick. I don't know, to be clear, I don't know if CNN is editing. I'm not sure how much of this interview they're editing because some of the cuts seem a little like kind of jarring for their extended cut. So I don't know if Doug actually answered that question or not. And I don't want to be like, uncharitable to Doug in this situation because he doesn't. He doesn't really answer the question. But like, to be emphatically clear, Doug does not believe, even worshiping Christ, that there is male nor female because he believes that women can't be pastors, that women can't preach, that women can't be in leadership in the church. So even in the church, there's a hierarchy where men like him set the rules that women have to follow. Notice to how Doug is the one saying when a woman can and can't leave her husband, it's still a man dictating it. Right. There's still no autonomy of the. Of the wife in this scenario of when she feels like it's time to leave her husband. It's still dictated to her by another man. Oh, gosh. It gets so.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't know specifically what claim she's talking about, but I. It does not surprise me in the least that there would be women who said their husbands were abusing them and churches would side with the husbands.

[B]

Well, I have not seen this interview. We're watching blind. But my guess is that what she's going to bring up is Steven Sitler. Steven Sitler was a man in the church. Trigger warning for child assault. But he was a pedophile. And Doug Wilson married off this man to a woman in his church. And Stephen reoffended with their infant.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

That's a real story. You can look it up. Steven Sitler, Doug Wilson. I'm assuming the journalist might be heading in that direction, but I'm not sure. So let's find out. We helped help the pedophile.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah, there you go. Well, I. I conducted the marriage Ceremony. But I. I did do that. So. But I didn't.

[B]

Okay, so right there, he admits. He admits off the bat, he conducted the wedding ceremony of a pedophile. That right away should be like, wait, what were you. How were you idle under. How did you. What like Doug, how did you claim to be like this authority that we should be following? And in. In. In. In your wisdom, you thought it was wise to marry off a man who you knew was a pedophile to a woman in your church. But let's see what he says about this. I'm really curious them up.

[D]

I didn't arrange it for it. I didn't. All. All the things you hear online that I did in that situation.

[C]

So why would you marry off a pedophile?

[D]

Because it was legal. He's a professing Christian. The woman he married understood his background, you know, understood what she was getting into. I didn't arrange it. It was not an arranged marriage. It was not pressured. It was nothing like that. But basically, when someone. One of the things that people don't realize is what. What pastors actually have to deal with. Pastors are helping people on homosexuality.

[C]

I mean, the Bible.

[B]

Okay, pause. We have to pause and pause on this. On this point.

[A]

How did he turn that into. But you don't understand how hard we pastors have it. Like what?

[B]

I need to point something out here and then. April, I want to hear your thoughts. Notice how when it comes time for him to own his own actions, when it comes time for him to take some accountability for making an incredibly unwise decision, which is to marry off a known pedophile to a woman in his church, suddenly. Well, she knew what she was, what she was in for. I didn't enforce it. It was legal. Right. All these excuses. Instead of him saying, it was a really unwise decision, and I deeply regret my actions. Right. He can't even take accountability for marrying off a pedophile in his church. He has to deflect. He has to deflect. What a weak. What a weak man. What a coward of a man that is where you can't even say, I'm sorry for doing that. I made a deep mistake. A pedophile, April. A pedophile.

[A]

And to turn it into woe is me. I just have it. I just have it really hard. As a pastor, you would understand these alpha male types.

[B]

I mean, Doug Wilson, someone who has images of himself smoking a cigar and holding a flamethrower, like, he's such a tough man. They are weak. These are weak, pathetic, men who hide. They are. They are little boys inside who are. Who are. Who are playing house. Right? And they think that somehow God has given them authority over women and other people in society. Like, wow, what a pathetic God you serve. If you think that the God you follow that encouraged you to marry off a known pedophile to a young woman in your church who later that same man reoffended with his own infant. And your response to that isn't to take accountability or responsibility or to feel the weight of the actions that you took that led to that outcome. It's just a deflect. That's pathetic, man. It's pathetic. And you want to run the country. Yeah, right.

[E]

Hey, everyone. Melinda Hale here, executive director of the New Evangelicals. Thanks for listening to our podcast. I just wanted to take a minute to personally invite you to be a part of our community. At tne, we're creating space for people of faith who care about justice, compassion, and living out the teachings of Jesus in real, tangible ways. As a nonprofit organization, not only do we offer thought provoking podcasts, but on our new app and online platform, TNE Connect, we offer free, free educational resources, additional content and a space to connect with like minded people for meaningful conversations and encouragement. So if what we're doing has been helpful to you, if you've learned something, felt, seen, or been challenged to grow, head over to theneweevangelicals.com to join TNE Connect or make a donation. Your support means the world to us. Thanks for being a part of the movement.

[F]

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[B]

Doug Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[D]

Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera.

[B]

They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Fairy underwritten by Liberty Mutual insurance company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts. For a limited time at McDonald's, get a Big Mac Extra Value meal for $8. That means two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun and medium fries and a drink. We may need to change that jingle. Prices and participation may vary. Packages by Expedia you were made to occasionally take the hard route to the top of the Eiffel Tower. We were made to easily bundle your trip Expedia Made to Travel Flight Inclusive packages are atoll protected. Recently we asked some people about sharing their New York Times accounts.

[A]

My name is Dana. I am a subscriber to the New.

[F]

York Times, but my husband isn't and.

[B]

It would be really nice to be.

[F]

Able to share a recipe or an article or compete with him in wordle or connections.

[B]

Thank you Dana. We heard you introducing the New York Times Family Subscription one subscription up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out [e-mail] family.

[F]

Hi, my name is Courtney. I live in London, United Kingdom and I am a T and E monthly donor. I'm a domestic abuse survivor and was raised with John MacArthur and purity culture rhetoric. I left my abuser in September 2020, moving from LA to southern Utah. I had been a Cali girl my whole life, so seeing the Christian nationalism and patriarchy present in Utah gave me quite a shock. During that time, I began deconstructing and making sense of my abuse and how my church upbringing and political affiliations contributed to it. It's a painful discovery that I'm still coming to terms with. I've never been a big believer in tithing, but you guys gave me a mission I can get behind. I hate that term now, but I don't know of any other more fitting. The US is on a trajectory mirroring that of 1930s Germany, and if something isn't done soon to circumvent that, I worry what the repercussions would be not just for the US but for the whole world.

[C]

On to homosexuality talked about stoning as punishment, right? Would you endorse punishing someone who is gay in the in the America you want to be living in?

[D]

This brings up an another old controversy. King Asa in Israel and King Jehoshaphat both in modern parlance, they both closed the bath house houses, shut it down and they exiled, they said, all done with that and exiling homosexuals. And the scripture praises both men for doing that, which means that the requirement for the death penalty that does exist in Leviticus, that requirement was not a minimum penalty but was a maximum penalty because Scripture Scripture praises the kings who didn't execute the homosexuals. They just shut the orgy down. They just shut the party Down. So there is latitude, and in the application of biblical law, there is latitude and how it's applied from scripture itself.

[B]

Okay, really quick, just to interpret this. So Doug Wilson is. Is pulling from someone named R.J. rush. Juni. He's a person who was a prolific writer in the 60s and 70s, comes from, I think Doug's tradition and essentially advocates for replacing American law with biblical law is what they use the term biblical law. And this is Doug kind of flailing over R.J. rush Jr's very, like, very clear prescription that gay people should be killed, that they should be stoned to death. And what he's doing is he's picking, again, arbitrary, random verses from the Bible and really adding his own interpretation onto them to try and make them seem like somehow they're more palatable now. Well, look, they. They didn't kill the quote, unquote, homosexuals. They just exiled them. As if that's somehow a better option for what Doug Wilson would prescribe. And let me also say that most people in life, including gay people, don't have orgies or don't. Aren't part of, like, you know, brothels. So, like, I don't understand how Doug can take that story and then say, therefore, even people in committed, same sex loving relationships should be exiled from our society. Like, it doesn't make any sense. It's a complete.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's a complete misinterpretation or misapplication of even that passage that he's trying to quote from as some kind of authoritative moral outcome that we should take on as a society in America.

[A]

Right. Because the verses he's talking about, it specifically says that he banished prostitutes.

[B]

Yes. Right. And also, I don't care because American law shouldn't be based on the Hebrew Bible. Like, shocker alert. Like, I don't care what Doug thinks. Like, that's. We're run by a constitution. We're not run by the Hebrew Bible. We're not run by the New Testament. Certainly Christians can advocate for positions that maybe they find consistent with their faith that call for the liberation of all people, as Jesus says that we should be doing. But this is not that. So I don't care if. I don't care if Doug was accurate in his interpretation. It doesn't affect how our neighbors should be allowed to live one iota.

[A]

I know. It's because they. This world does not believe that people are born gay. They think that. That it's some kind of satanic, demonic influence that gay people have and that homosexuality is basically part of the Downfall of America. I mean, I believed that when I was in Christian nationalism, which I did, I would never have called myself a Christian nationalist. I would have just said I was being a good Christian, as you would have as well.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

But, but like, that is a common thought. It's why you saw Jerry falwell Go on 700 Club with Pat Robertson and blame 911 on the ACLU. Abortionist homosexuals. Because you view people as sinful, as sinners, and then suddenly you also view those sins as a reason that God allows bad things to happen to America. And how we get back in God's good graces. Good graces. And how God can start blessing our is we have to get rid of all those evil, quote unquote sinners.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And homosexuals are at the top of the list.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Like, notice they hyperfocus on that one.

[B]

Right. And notice how it's. How, how God's never judging the country for their sins. God's not going to judge America for voting for the big beautiful bill that strips health care away from millions of marginalized people. Right. And that takes literal food out of the mouths of children. No, God won't judge us for that. He's going to judge us because we have gay people who are allowed to live in, flourish in society. What? Like it's. Again, it's never about personal. They, they preach accountability, right? They, they preach personal accountability, but it's never aimed at them. They're never going to think about if their actions are the reason why they think God is judging the country, even though so many of their actions go directly against the same Bible that they claim they're following. There are hundreds of passages about how we treat the poor and the marginalized. There are hundreds of passages talking about how the rich and powerful should not be able to oppress. Right. Those underneath of them. James 5, a damning critique of the billionaire class that exploits their working class for unfair wages. They're never going to pull those verses out as, as proof that we're under America's judgment because, you know, four people own more wealth than the bottom 50% of Americans. No, no, no, that's. That, that's not the issue. The issue is that your neighbors down the street are able to live their life in peace away from everyone else. Right. And be recognized for as, as, as a, as a justifiable lifestyle, so to speak, where they're able to be married and have, you know, have kids. And that's the downfall of society. Because gay people exist.

[A]

Right. And it's they're, they're never taking accountability, Accountability for their sins. Like, like the mass amounts of sexual abuse that was covered up in the Southern Baptist Convention.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Why God? God. God's not judging us for that. Like the fact. And even, even this complementarianism where they, they have the God, husband, wife, children, like that is oppressive. That gives so much cover for sexual assaults and abuse, not just towards women, but towards children.

[B]

Yep, yep.

[A]

And. And they've never want, like men like Doug Wilson have never once taken accountability for how their theology, which is oppressive to everybody except for white men, how their theology has harmed everybody for centuries, since the beginning. Like it is a harmful, harmful theology. They never once taken accountability for that. Or that God would never judge us for white supremacy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or the fact that we are ripping children away from immigrants.

[B]

Yep. No God. No God. God supports that, April. You know, God, that. That's what a good country should do. We should be kidnapping immigrants in this country. Yeah, absolutely. And can I say one last thing? We're a little long here, but whatever. The term complementarian is a brand new made up term that came out of the 80s. The 80s. Wayne Grudem was the person who created this language of egalitarian, complementarian. This whole framework that we're living in is not ancient, it is brand spanking new. So there is no precedent to take this hierarchy that Doug says is, you know, God ordained at face value. It's absolute malarkey. It's absolute malarkey.

[A]

All right, agreed.

[B]

Let's keep going.

[C]

Bottom line, do you see any America and the America you want to be living in where homosexuals are punished?

[D]

I. Yeah, I think that because, just.

[C]

Because they're, they've decided that they're, you know, they want to live freely as a gay person.

[D]

Yeah, I would say, yeah. But that punished.

[C]

How?

[B]

Yes.

[D]

When I first began ministering, just, just so you understand how the Overton windows moved. When I first began ministering as a Christian minister, I was grown, an adult and preaching the gospel. Sodomy was a felony in all 50 states. All 50. Now that. And I, I didn't begin.

[C]

And this Supreme Court I know stepped in and overturned that because of the.

[D]

No, my point. Yeah.

[C]

There was the Lawrence ruling.

[B]

Correct.

[C]

And the Supreme Court said that, that, yeah.

[D]

The whole thing where we, we are. Where we are now. My point is that when I began ministering in 1977, in the late 70s and early 80s, and sodomy was a felony in all 50 states, that America of that day was not a totalitarian hellhole.

[B]

So you, first off, it was for gay people. Let's, let's be, let's be real clear, Doug, okay. The Reagan administration wouldn't even support AIDS research because of the, of the nonsense notion that it was, it was, you know, God's judgment on gay people or that because gay people were getting it more often, somehow they deserved it. I mean, there's a whole, there's all kinds of history of nurses not helping people in need because these people were so called abominable. So yeah, to be clear, if you were gay in the 1970s or 80s, it was a totalitarian hellhole because you were outlawed. You couldn't be married to your partner, you couldn't be public about who you were as a human. So it absolutely was. It's kind of like when, you know, Doug, Doug talks about the Overton Window. Doug can make the same case for racial segregation. You know, back when I started preaching, segregation was a thing. And look, look how liberal we got as a country now. Black people and white people can go to the same school. I mean, that, that's what people like Doug and his tradition would say back in the day. That's what they would advocate for. They would say that because integration became popular, America was losing its way. We were straying from our God given principles. Look up the sermons by Bob Jones. Look up the book the Bible Told himself so by J. Russell Hawkins. It was white southern evangelicals who were the staunchest supporters of, of biblical segregation, demanding that America stay segregated because the Bible was clear. So just because we've evolved to give people more freedom and more liberation to allow them to be who they are, and because our understanding of human sexuality has evolved, we've gotten better and more accurate. And we've realized that not everyone has the same sexual orientation. For Doug, right, the Overton Window has moved in the wrong direction. So if he's in charge, we have to punish gay people. We have to criminalize people for being who they are. Doug wants to bring us back to that time when people were literally in the closet, afraid to come out for who they were, were beaten, were sometimes killed, were not given the same access to medical health care. Right. Were seen as God's judgment on. They were essentially scapegoated. That's the America that Doug wants. Oh, and by the way, this is Pete Hegseth's like Pastor, this is who Pete Hegseth loves to listen to. Do you see why now, friends, why April and I do this show, why April and I are so outspoken about the threat of Christian nationalism This isn't some dude in his basement talking about crazy things with like. With like, five people listening. This dude is discipling the current Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth. Like, wake up. This is what they want.

[A]

Yeah, well, and it's the same idea with the whole MAGA phrase, like, make America great again. When has America ever been great for anyone who is not a white male?

[B]

Right, Right. What era do you want to go back to, Doug? I mean, don't forget, Doug wrote a book with a white supremacist defending slavery. I read the excerpt on the last. Last episode, part one of this. Right. I mean, he's someone who says that slavery in the south was largely harmonious and was mutually beneficial. Like, is that when you. That's what. That's what's so wild about this. And again, white evangelicalism lets Doug thrive. Doug Wilson's able to have the career that he has because white evangelicalism lets him write the books. He has an audience with white evangelicals. He has power because of white evangelicals. And here we are, he's now on CNN saying these things out in the open, which actually, I'm happy about. I'm happy that, like, people beyond the bubble that we grew up in are hearing what is inside this bubble and what they want. Because I think that. That the overwhelming majority of Americans are going to reject Doug and this Christian nationalist, you know, agenda. But make no mistake. These people are for real. Obergefell is on the table. They want to overturn the right to gay marriage. They want it overturned. And women's suffrage is not far behind. Just isn't.

[A]

Oh, yeah, this isn't.

[B]

Shall we keep going?

[A]

Yes. Power through.

[B]

All right.

[C]

You would like America to go back to that.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

And someone watching this might be like, you want to control behavior in the bedroom.

[D]

Yeah, well, I. I have the advantage of having built my own house. And people like to say that liberals don't care what you do in your bedroom. But the state had opinions about how thick the Sheetrock had to be in the bedroom, how far apart the Sheetrock screws had to be, how big the window had to be for egress, and whether or not I could take the mattress off the tag. What do you mean? The government doesn't care what happens to the bedroom. They regulate.

[C]

And that goes to your sort of libertarian.

[D]

That's exactly.

[B]

He's. He can't be that dumb. You're telling me that building codes that are in place for a reason, to make sure that you build a safe house for your family, that if it catches on fire, your, your, your Sheetrock is thick enough to give you time to escape. I mean, these are the reason why we can walk into buildings, not worry about them falling on our heads because of building codes. For Doug, that's the same thing as Doug wanted to tell two people what they can and can't do in their bedroom. Intimately. What. What are you talking about, Doug? What are you talking about? This is, this is the best that Christian nationalism has to give us. This is, this is, this is their brightest, their best and brightest. Give me a break. It's ridiculous.

[C]

Stupid, stupid libertarian tendencies. But it sounds like, I mean, what your vision is from the writings like R.J. rushdooney, you know, who is a Christian reconstruction constructionist.

[D]

Would you call yourself a maybe small R reconstruction? I was never a card carrying member of that, but I read Rushdooney and I read Gary north and I read, read Boston and learned an awful lot from them. But I never signed off on the entire project.

[C]

But what part did you not sign off on?

[D]

Oh, they were armory lot and fighting with each other a lot. And I, I think, think some of the applications of Old Testament law were too wooden. So I think that you have to budget for the fact that Christ came and transformed the world. So when Christ died, the Old Testament law was crucified with him and the Old Testament law rose again from the dead with him, but rose again transformed.

[C]

And the family, the church and the civil government budgets. Weird as.

[B]

That's just to be clear. That's like not a very. I mean, I've never heard that in my life. That the Old Testament was buried with Christ and rose. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

What does that stupid. That's just saying the Old Testament, we still listen to it. That does nothing.

[B]

Yeah, just. It's just my way now. Not RJ Rauni's way, it's my way. It's how we interpret it now.

[C]

Poor fit in and helping the poor and the needy and the most vulnerable. Would that be up to the church or the civil government?

[D]

It'd be up to families and the church and I would say as a final safety net, the civil government.

[C]

Okay. Because I know RJ Reshdueni, in many ways he thought the church should take on that role.

[D]

Yes, but for example, in the Old Testament, the civil government, the gleaning laws, for example, where you left part of your field for the poor to glean and get sustenance, that's the sort of thing saying that the civil government could say, we want you to do that.

[C]

And you basically think the civil government should stay out of the business of the family unit that you see as its own sort of the family.

[D]

The family is the ministry of health, education, and welfare. The church is the ministry of grace and peace or the ministry of word and Sacrament. And the civil government is the ministry of justice.

[C]

Do you still believe what you said back in the 90s, that there's a mutual affection between master and slave?

[D]

Yeah. Well, yes, it depends on the. On which master. Which slave you're talking about. Slavery was overseen and conducted by fallen human beings, and there were horrendous abuses. And there were also people who owned slaves, who were decent human beings and didn't mistreat them.

[C]

But do you think by even saying that, that's minimizing the just sheer barbarity and brutality of using human beings based on the color of their skin as property?

[D]

Yeah, I think. I think that system of chattel slavery was an unbiblical system, and I'm grateful it's gone.

[B]

Okay, that's the end of the interview that CNN has. They cut it off there.

[A]

Well, it just ends right there.

[B]

That's. That's. I pulled the whole video. That's what they gave me.

[A]

Wow, what an odd ending.

[B]

Yeah, it is odd. I'm not sure what happened, but that I pulled the full clip.

[A]

Timing wise and odd.

[B]

I.

[A]

Stupid statement.

[B]

April, can I say something quickly? I don't. I don't want to brag, but my God, did I foretell Doug Wilson to a freaking T. RJ Rush Jr. Came up. Slavery came up. And I say this because I know you're the same way. Sometimes I think you and I struggle with, like, imposter syndrome. You know, like, do we actually know what we're talking about? Are we just kind of, like, over the top? No. Like, April and I know what we're talking about. Darn it. Like, we. When we tell you things, I promise.

[A]

Friends, when it comes to Christian nationalism.

[B]

Yes. Nothing else. Yes. Don't. Don't trust me for anything else. But when it comes to Christian nationalism, April and I, we always have the receipts, and we're not making this stuff up. Even. Doug again reiterated that in many cases of slavery, you can have the right master. It's not that bad. And to be clear, just to give you guys the interpretation of this, or kind of like decoding what he's saying, Doug Wilson has said in the blog post that being gay or homosexuality is way worse than slavery. See, for Doug, there is a world where slavery can function in a Christian society. If it's Regulated the right way. If it's, if it's, if it's biblical. Because the Bible, by the way, Bible does not condemn slavery. It only endorses it. So I guess we can say that Doug's being consistent on this point because he can find that in the Bible. But Doug has no problem with slavery if it's done the right way. That's his critique. His critique is that slavery wasn't done properly. It was based maybe on racism, which is wrong, but being gay completely must be banned. Notice how when she brings up RJ Rush Sunni and he says that he disagrees with him, he doesn't bring up, like, the death penalty for gay people. He says that maybe RJ was too wooden in his approach, which is just. It makes no sense. This is like, this should be. I don't know. I wish that, like, people who saw this interview understood the context behind Doug Wilson so they could freak out and go, how did we, how did, how did we get this far, this quickly? It's.

[A]

And I want to point out, too, Pete Hegseth retweeted, or quote, tweeted, the cnn, at least the six minute version, which included criminalizing homosexuality and all of his super misogynistic stuff about women.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like. Like, it is wild to me that he can say all this with his full chest and he still has a congregation. Like, there are a lot of people that support what he's saying. And I think, I think a lot of us, when we watch that, when we go to regular churches that are not as extreme or not as overt about Christian nationalism, can write this off as like, oh, that's just a fringe pastor, but he's not French. Like, he actually has a lot of influence. He has the ear of Pete Hegseth, who has the ear of Donald Trump. Like, and he said in an interview where he planted, or it wasn't him, but it was someone from his church, where they planted the new church in D.C. that part of their goal was to infiltrate the Trump administration 100%.

[B]

100%.

[A]

This is not something to just laugh about as some crazy, weird pastor. Like, this is something that a lot of them want. And even people who may not, who will probably disagree with how extreme that is, but support Christian nationalism in other ways, whether it's for abortion or whatever. You are still supporting that, right?

[B]

They're gonna tolerate that. They're. They are. Absolutely. They will. At a minimum, they will tolerate Doug Wilson. Maybe. I disagree. But they're not gonna call him out as heretical or as a danger. To society. They're never gonna do that. And to be clear, friends, not to. Not to make it sound worse than it is, but that's only one half of the Christian nationalist pie. There's a whole different half. The new apostolic reformation that is brought to you by folks like Paula White, who currently has a job in the White House bringing in her apostolic friends. There's two angles to this. This is only one side of it. And that's why I think, April, you. You know, animated whenever. Whenever we do our show, because it's like there's such a sense of urgency behind what we're saying. Because it's happening right now, you know, like, it's not like there's a threat of Christian fascism. It's happening. The Christian fascism is here. It's in our government. It's writing laws. It's taking over. And that's why we're so compelled by it, because you hear some of the views that they have. The views that they have are incredibly damaging to the wellbeing of our neighbors, especially our most marginalized ones. And they finally, finally had the power that they've been seeking for decades. And it's scary. It's downright scary.

[A]

It is. It is scary. I hope more people can watch that just so they can get an idea of what we're actually up against.

[B]

100%. 100%. All right, friends, well, hey, yeah. Thanks for watching, I guess. Thanks so much for being here. We will be back here at least.

[A]

It's almost Halloween. We're in spooky season.

[B]

I love that. I love that. Friends, thanks for being here. Make sure to give this video a like, we would love your comments. Your thoughts on this. We do read all the comments, so make sure to share below and make sure to give this channel a subscribe or hit the subscribe button for the channel. It helps us. We're trying to hit 10,000 subs. That's our goal. 10,000 subscribers is our goal. You can help us get there. It would mean the world. All right, we'll talk to y' all later on. See ya.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

Sam.